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This entire article reads as it would if a Jesuit priest were to consider the idea that the distance from Rome and the British Isles fostered some degree of autonomy. Also, there are no modern "Scholars" cited, merely Patrick Wormald. He is one scholar, and his work is used liberally and as a complete refutation of all opposing views while treated as inherently accurate.
I am naturally skeptical that it is true, else other modern scholars would have come to a similar consensus and would be cited rather than one man and his opinion speaking for a multitude of silent "scholars." There has been an infinitely large amount of historical work done with regards to church history, especially church history in the British Isles. I find it baffling that only one scholar is cited and his findings and claims are trotted around in lieu of some other scholar's findings. This is what convinces me that this page is quite partisan and sympathetic in its tone. 156.12.202.122 ( talk) 19:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
This article expounds the view from Rome. Rome had fallen to Aleric and his Visigoths, and its religion and political and military power utterly diminished. In religious matters, for example, Rome was a secondary authority to Constantinople - the city of the Emperor Constantine where 'Roman' Christianity was established. When Augustine came to Britain he discovered a distinctive native church preserving and innovating a distinct native Christianity that, for example, used a form of Latin often considered more advanced and subtle than that used by the Romans of the time. That this native church was outmanoeuvered by political and commercial wiles speaks more of Rome's guile than its theological or intellectual supremacy. To state that 'scholars' have decided this or that in this article should be qualified by amending this to 'Roman Catholic scholars'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.10.79 ( talk) 09:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
It is stated "Irish society had no history of literacy until the introduction of Christianity". While ireland did have an oral tradition at that time, the ogham alphabet existed and was in use prior to christainity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.170.48 ( talk) 16:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
A few paragraphs on monasticism have been added here over the last few days. It's all nicely cited, but I'm not sure this article is the place for it. In the period being discussed here, there were separate Irish and British (that is, the
Britons) church and monastery traditions. The cited source, the de Paors' Early Christian Ireland: Ancient Peoples and Places, is clearly about the Irish system, which of course spread to what's now Scotland, some of the Ango-Saxon areas, and the continent. However, calling it "Celtic" in this context implies that these traits were found among both "Celtic" systems at the time, whereas it was not the case among the Britons.
I think the material may be better suited for a different article specifically on Irish monasticism. I'll see if I can find an appropriate place for it.--
Cúchullain
t/
c
13:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
The entire argument, and indeed the term 'Celtic', falls apart when we realise that neither the Irish nor the British used that term to describe ANY of their churches. Nor did they have any idea that they were themselves 'Celtic'. Its not a term used by any of the participants, and not put upon till very long after. Neither the British nor the Irish had the faintest idea they were 'Celts', probably because they were not. Fergananim ( talk) 06:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
On another note, work has continued on the monastic sections. It may be time to discuss branching them off into their own articles, there's obviously plenty of material for that.-- Cúchullain t/ c 15:29, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
It should be included some information of the old Celtic diocese of Britonia in Galicia (Spain). 86.125.63.90 ( talk) 23:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Per my recent edits:
More sourcing for the legends of Lucius, Joseph of Arimathea, and Saint Fagan on their pages. More sourcing for early Celtic Christianity at list of Welsh saints, although it's largely sourced to Baring-Gould and could use more recent treatment if we've got it. They can be brought over if it's needful. — LlywelynII 06:34, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Per Johnbod's recent edits:
I.
Possible≠probable, but remains a true statement. We don't want to give
WP:UNDUE weight to
WP:FRINGE theories, I know. At the same time, for historic reasons, it's important to mention Bede & co's legends about Lucius and later legends about Joey A: people really did believe those legends for many centuries. For
WP:LIE reasons, we have to make clear that those stories in their full development are undoubtably untrue (no 28 bishops, 3 archbishops, or united kingdom of Lucius) and may have been (Lucius) or probably were (Joey) entirely invented. Gildas is something different from that. He's very important as an early local source with access to (unlike Geoffrey, real) records that no longer exist. He says someone showed up by the end of the reign of Tiberius: we should mention it. There's no impossibility involved and we shouldn't remove it or pretend there is: there are specific NT statements of Christ sending out apostles during his lifetime (i.e., c. 30 – c. 33), there's a specific text (provided) saying by name that one of them was sent to Britain, and it doesn't take 4 years to walk there.
Now, that said, obviously the mission wasn't terribly successful. I thought that would be obvious from context: the first bishops aren't known for another 3 centuries. We can also add sourcing calling it highly unlikely or a confusion ( Claudius's first name was 'Tiberius') and that's probably right. — LlywelynII 06:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
II.
Also, cf.
WP:SOCALLED. Short version is don't use it. Not only is the
Great Conspiracy known by that name, it is the
primary topic for that name, which provides it without sneer quotes. If there are legitimate problems with the name raised by the scholarship, kindly provide it to both pages and possibly start a move request. Otherwise, realize it's just what that event is known as, similar to the
Norman conquest of England (not the "Norman immigration to England around 1066") or the
Crusades (not the "European invasions of Palestine during the Pre-modern period"). —
LlywelynII
06:41, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:20, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
I noticed a half dozen or so instances where, when discussing a Saint, or possibly two Saints at once, the Saints were noted as "SS X and Y", rather than "Saints X and Y" or, more properly, "Saint X and Saint Y". Obviously I eventually figured it out, and determined it was a form of shorthand considered appropriate in a particular field of research, but I do not think such shorthand is appropriate for a wiki article.
I consider myself to be rather broadly read (although not of wikis), yet have never encountered this before.
Thank you for your consideration. 173.77.169.30 ( talk) 10:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.169.30 ( talk) 10:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This entire article reads as it would if a Jesuit priest were to consider the idea that the distance from Rome and the British Isles fostered some degree of autonomy. Also, there are no modern "Scholars" cited, merely Patrick Wormald. He is one scholar, and his work is used liberally and as a complete refutation of all opposing views while treated as inherently accurate.
I am naturally skeptical that it is true, else other modern scholars would have come to a similar consensus and would be cited rather than one man and his opinion speaking for a multitude of silent "scholars." There has been an infinitely large amount of historical work done with regards to church history, especially church history in the British Isles. I find it baffling that only one scholar is cited and his findings and claims are trotted around in lieu of some other scholar's findings. This is what convinces me that this page is quite partisan and sympathetic in its tone. 156.12.202.122 ( talk) 19:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
This article expounds the view from Rome. Rome had fallen to Aleric and his Visigoths, and its religion and political and military power utterly diminished. In religious matters, for example, Rome was a secondary authority to Constantinople - the city of the Emperor Constantine where 'Roman' Christianity was established. When Augustine came to Britain he discovered a distinctive native church preserving and innovating a distinct native Christianity that, for example, used a form of Latin often considered more advanced and subtle than that used by the Romans of the time. That this native church was outmanoeuvered by political and commercial wiles speaks more of Rome's guile than its theological or intellectual supremacy. To state that 'scholars' have decided this or that in this article should be qualified by amending this to 'Roman Catholic scholars'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.10.79 ( talk) 09:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
It is stated "Irish society had no history of literacy until the introduction of Christianity". While ireland did have an oral tradition at that time, the ogham alphabet existed and was in use prior to christainity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.170.48 ( talk) 16:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
A few paragraphs on monasticism have been added here over the last few days. It's all nicely cited, but I'm not sure this article is the place for it. In the period being discussed here, there were separate Irish and British (that is, the
Britons) church and monastery traditions. The cited source, the de Paors' Early Christian Ireland: Ancient Peoples and Places, is clearly about the Irish system, which of course spread to what's now Scotland, some of the Ango-Saxon areas, and the continent. However, calling it "Celtic" in this context implies that these traits were found among both "Celtic" systems at the time, whereas it was not the case among the Britons.
I think the material may be better suited for a different article specifically on Irish monasticism. I'll see if I can find an appropriate place for it.--
Cúchullain
t/
c
13:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
The entire argument, and indeed the term 'Celtic', falls apart when we realise that neither the Irish nor the British used that term to describe ANY of their churches. Nor did they have any idea that they were themselves 'Celtic'. Its not a term used by any of the participants, and not put upon till very long after. Neither the British nor the Irish had the faintest idea they were 'Celts', probably because they were not. Fergananim ( talk) 06:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
On another note, work has continued on the monastic sections. It may be time to discuss branching them off into their own articles, there's obviously plenty of material for that.-- Cúchullain t/ c 15:29, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
It should be included some information of the old Celtic diocese of Britonia in Galicia (Spain). 86.125.63.90 ( talk) 23:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Per my recent edits:
More sourcing for the legends of Lucius, Joseph of Arimathea, and Saint Fagan on their pages. More sourcing for early Celtic Christianity at list of Welsh saints, although it's largely sourced to Baring-Gould and could use more recent treatment if we've got it. They can be brought over if it's needful. — LlywelynII 06:34, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Per Johnbod's recent edits:
I.
Possible≠probable, but remains a true statement. We don't want to give
WP:UNDUE weight to
WP:FRINGE theories, I know. At the same time, for historic reasons, it's important to mention Bede & co's legends about Lucius and later legends about Joey A: people really did believe those legends for many centuries. For
WP:LIE reasons, we have to make clear that those stories in their full development are undoubtably untrue (no 28 bishops, 3 archbishops, or united kingdom of Lucius) and may have been (Lucius) or probably were (Joey) entirely invented. Gildas is something different from that. He's very important as an early local source with access to (unlike Geoffrey, real) records that no longer exist. He says someone showed up by the end of the reign of Tiberius: we should mention it. There's no impossibility involved and we shouldn't remove it or pretend there is: there are specific NT statements of Christ sending out apostles during his lifetime (i.e., c. 30 – c. 33), there's a specific text (provided) saying by name that one of them was sent to Britain, and it doesn't take 4 years to walk there.
Now, that said, obviously the mission wasn't terribly successful. I thought that would be obvious from context: the first bishops aren't known for another 3 centuries. We can also add sourcing calling it highly unlikely or a confusion ( Claudius's first name was 'Tiberius') and that's probably right. — LlywelynII 06:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
II.
Also, cf.
WP:SOCALLED. Short version is don't use it. Not only is the
Great Conspiracy known by that name, it is the
primary topic for that name, which provides it without sneer quotes. If there are legitimate problems with the name raised by the scholarship, kindly provide it to both pages and possibly start a move request. Otherwise, realize it's just what that event is known as, similar to the
Norman conquest of England (not the "Norman immigration to England around 1066") or the
Crusades (not the "European invasions of Palestine during the Pre-modern period"). —
LlywelynII
06:41, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Celtic Christianity. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:20, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
I noticed a half dozen or so instances where, when discussing a Saint, or possibly two Saints at once, the Saints were noted as "SS X and Y", rather than "Saints X and Y" or, more properly, "Saint X and Saint Y". Obviously I eventually figured it out, and determined it was a form of shorthand considered appropriate in a particular field of research, but I do not think such shorthand is appropriate for a wiki article.
I consider myself to be rather broadly read (although not of wikis), yet have never encountered this before.
Thank you for your consideration. 173.77.169.30 ( talk) 10:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.169.30 ( talk) 10:18, 22 March 2016 (UTC)