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Usually excluding southern Europeans? (maybe the author of that sentence was an American usually confusing Latin Americans with Spaniards or Italians?) From where I stand, this article still lacks labour and must be improved. I am not going to make any suggestions at the moment.
Yes I think it is a pure american view of the concept. anyway we don't speak about "caucasian" in Europe. Nobody except the people who live in those mountains (Chechenians, azerbaidjans, armenians, etc...) would describe himself as "caucasian". Most people consider himself as "white", even if in Europe we generally don't identificate with a "race" but with cultural-linguistic groups. The latins, for exemple, are the people who speak a latin romance language (french, italians, spanish, portuguese), and, even if they have generally more dark-hair than the northener people, they have always been "White". The american view of "latin" is biaised by the fact that most of the romance-language speakers in USA are mostly of native indian or mestizo origins (non-white). So the latin word have been badly used to describe these people who didn't enter really in white or amerindian categories.
-- GTubio 20:53, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dark Tea the Moors you were talking about BELONG to CAUCASIAN race too!!! They were predominantly of BERBER descent (and lots of them are very light in complexion: Zinedine Zidane is a good example of this). I wonder why people in USA treat Souther European like they were "mestizos"._Sabrina-4 August 2007
The claim is not that skin color is unrelated to genetics - that would be silly. The claim is that there is no set of genetic characteristics that defines "the black race" as separate from "the white race" - that is to say that genetics cannot be used as the primary means of drawing racial lines. You have to resort to appearance - i.e. skin color. Not to a particular genetic sequence. This is not an obviously untrue claim, and I'd like to see some evidence against it before you revert it again. Snowspinner 06:44, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor 66.185.84.80: please take the time to read some modern scientific text on population genetics, and you will perhaps understand why that sentence is not POV. Trying to give a quick summary, some of the major discoveries in question (that 18th century anthopologists did not know about) are: (1) humans have tens (hundreds?) of thousands of genes, which are inherited independently and randomly from either parent; so classifying people by the visible characteristics like skin color and skull shape makes as much sense as classifying cars by their windshield decals. (2) there are no "pure races", not even "somewhat pure" ones: even when one looks at the "purest" races, there is much more genetic variation within each race than between the means of the two races. (3) even the most paranoid racial barriers are leaky as a sieve, so over a millenium or two any social group will become genetically very similar to the neighboring populations, and vice-versa -- even if the group continues to maintain its "ethnic" identity. And so on.
Because of these reasons, it is simply impossible to give any sound basis to the old concept of "race"; it would be like asking a car mechanic to provide a link between engine power and windshield decals. There simply isn't such thing as a "Caucasian gene" or even a "Caucasian gene set". An article which does not say this clearly would be doing a bad service to its readers.
Jorge Stolfi
09:34, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, one problem with defining rece that way is that there would be no clear-cut boundary between such "races", so labels like "Caucasian race" would become completely arbitrary. One could as well define a "United States race" as meaning (among other things) X% black skin, Y% white skin, etc. Another problem is that you would not be able to say whether an individual belongs to a given race or not: if "race" A is defined as 40% blue eyes, 60% black (and other things), while "race" B is the other way around, to which race does a blue-eyed individual belong?
This problem becomes much worse when you consider all genes instead of two or three. With 30 genes, each having two variants, you could define about one billion different "pure races", and an infinitude of gene distributions.
A more fundamental problem is that genes get inherited independently, and those which are bad/good for a given environment are quickly selected out/in while those that are indifferent just drift around. White skin may be an advantage in colder climates, but is a definite disadvantage if you live in the tropics at low altitude. (Spend a couple of hours under the sun in a tropical beach, without suncreen, and you will understand why.)
This problem is made worse by our modern understanding of how genes work. For instance, black skin involves complicated mechanisms for manufacturing and regulating melanin, depositing it in the right places, etc. etc. All humans have the genes needed for that mechanism, but white-skinned people ("Caucasian" as well as "Asian") have a small genetic defect somewhere that prevents the mechanism from working properly. Obviously this defect has nothing to do with intellectual capability or whatever other attribute that, according to old-style racial theorists, are associated with skin color.
For these and other reasons, modern population genetics does not even try to define the concept of "race". It s not that the geneticists don't like the idea, they just cannot figure out a way to define "Caucasian race" or "Nordic race" or "Jewish race" in any way that would make sense.
The measured amount of genetic variation in the entire human population is extremely small; genetically we are very similar. Indeed, 93% of all genetic variability occurs within Africa; the human groups with the greatest differences between them occur in Africa (See: Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, Piazza, 1994; Cavalli-Sforza, 2004). In this sense it as logical to compare Nigerians with Swedes, in inherent biological terms, as it is to compare Nigerians and South Africans.
All the best,
Jorge Stolfi
16:00, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
...
<there is no set of genetic characteristics>
There most certainly is, it just hasn’t been isolated yet.
In one of my high school classes during a disscusion about Condoleezza Rice, a slightly ditzy classmate remarked, (after the teacher had made a statement, describing her as black): "Yeah, but she's not THAT black." I think she was on to something; what black race? Caucasian race? never heard of it! Leon W, 6 Nov 2005.
...
BiDil anyone? http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2005/NEW01190.html
A drug tailored specifically to a "self-identified black patient". I think that should be some indication that there are in fact marked differences between certain human populations, just as African-Americans(I mean that in the strictest sense; The peoples of west Africa brought to the U.S.) are FAR more susceptible to Sickle Cell Anemia. http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/scdmanage.html
August 26, 2006
"Within strict anthropological discourse the term is useful in identifying a very large group of people who present certain general physical characteristics"
What's the source for this claim?? AFAIK most biological anthropologists would use 'indo-european' rather than a term as empirically dubious as 'caucasian'. While this article makes clear the problems with the term, I don't think it does enough to make clear how discredited it is among the scientific community.
Sorry JWB, you are wrong, “Indo-European” is definitely not only a linguistic term (not longer). In recent time the meaning has been extended. Note, I am not a professional in this matter, but there must be a mention / explanation about the relation of “Indo-European” and “Caucasian race” in this anthropologic topic. How’s such an exactly will look, I cannot say.
Please note, I do not equate “Indo-European” 1:1 with “Caucasian race”, I absolutely recognize “Indo-European” as a subset of some larger human classification.
A solution could be, “In newer times, a lot of “biological anthropologists “have started to use “Indo-European” (in meaning for an “ethnic European group”) rather than a term as “Caucasian”. (Or something equal, my English is not perfect.)
However, as already mentioned, in the current version, this article ignores completely this important information. -- lorn10 23:45, 24. June 2006 (CEST)
Indians are referred to as Caucasian? really? see Image:Map of skin color distribution.gif according to which East Asians have a lighter complexion that Indians. dab 12:22, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the darker features in the Indian subcontinent come from pre-Aryan peoples, particularly the Dravidians.---BDH
That's not fully correct. The oldest inhabitants of India were people belonging to the called "Coastal Clan I". They reached this region probably ca. 60 000 years ago and bore Y-haplogroup C and mtDNA haplogroup M. Anthropologically they can be classified as "vedd(o)ids" and their current descendants are some primitive dark-skinned tribes in India and the Vedda in Sri Lanka.
The second human layer in India were the so-called "dalits" (as they are called today), archaic europids bearing Y-haplogroup H, who penetrated into India from the west perhaps more than 30 000 years ago, eliminated (killed?) the majority of "Coastal Clan" men and mixed with their women. These people now make up 1/3 or even more of Indian lower castes and tribal groups. They are even ancestors of the European Roma. "Pure" dalits in India are thus basically mixed Europid-Veddid people.
The third basic human layer in India are the Dravidians, agriculturalists from Baluchistan, who penetrated into the Indus Valley in the 4th millenium BC and created the famous "Indus Valley Civilization". They bore Y-haplogroup L and probably even a subclade of Y-haplogroup J. It was probably Dravidians, who set up some sort of the caste system, because the admixture of the dalit H-lineages in Dravidian upper castes is very low. Since they mostly took dalit women - as it usually is in new invaders - , they partly acquired Veddid appearance.
The fourth and last basic layer in India were the Aryans from southern Russia speaking an Indo-European language. They got to India from north-west around 1500 BC and predominantly bore Y-haplogroup R1a1. It is possible that before Aryans, some Aryan population was already present in northern India (maybe the so-called Dasya from Indian legends), because Indian R1a1 is highly diverse. The Aryan invasion probably also brought Y-haplogroup R2 from Central Asia. In any case, Aryans defeated both the Dasya and Dravidians; Dravidian nobles fled to southern India and a large part of the dalits followed them. The north-west of India was actually largely "cleaned" on ethnical basis; remaining Dravidians and dalits were largely subdued and "de-casted". The Aryans set up a very strict caste system that, however, allowed some interethnic admixture of the Aryans into the Dravidian upper castes during the following milleniums. From some reason, a part of some dalit nobles was left on middle Ganga and joined the Aryans.
Thus (according to Sengupta et al. 2006) current upper Aryan castes in India mostly contain Y-haplogroups R1a1 (45%), R2 (16%) and H (13%). The Aryan tribal groups and lower castes actually consist of subdued Dalits and possibly mysterious Dasya, as the high presence of H (24-33%) and R1a1 (10-26%) shows. Dravidian lineages (L, J2a) are generally rare in Indian Aryans (but possibly much common in Pakistan), which also indicates that Dravidians didn't occupy the whole territory of India before the Aryan invasion - only the Indus Valley.
The Dravidian upper castes mostly contain R1a1 (29%), L (17%) and J2a (15%), but surprisingly low dalit admixture (H: 8%). On the other hand, dalit lineages are frequent among middle Dravidian castes (34%), together with L (19%) and J2b (19%) that got to India somehow from the Near East. The Dravidian tribes mainly consist of subdued dalits (37%) and even mongoloid groups (O: 27%) that probably occupied the east of India before their arrival. The presence of Y-haplogroup C (the "Veddid" lineage) is very low across the whole India (max. 4%) Centrum99 01:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(though Americocentric should not mean offensive)
Southern Europeans are described as "Latins"? Maybe by you they are. Are Greeks Latins? Maltese? Cypriots? They're all Southern Europeans.
The opening paragraph does not even make clear that this "concept" is entirely discredited! There's no such thing as a "Caucasian race". The term is used loosely in the US for "whites" but that doesn't mean it has any reality.
As noted, in Europe, "Caucasians" are people from the Caucusus, nothing more, nothing less. I noted Dbachmann's reversion of some changes. He said in his edit summary that they were not "NPOV". Well no, but neither's this article as it stands. I think some of the changes could have been incorporated, in more moderate language. Dr Zen 09:30, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
PLEASE TAKE NOTE- THIS IS IMPORTANT!
Colour is not the onlt thing that determnines a race, race is also about features. e.g. if you make a European persons skin colour darker and their hair they would look that far off from somone who is from India, middle east or meditarrian. This is because their features are similar (not the same) However this will not be the case for Oriental people or Black people as features such as hair nose lips are different.
Also the Causasian or White race as it is known these days comes from a part of Asia called Caucaus hence these Europeans are from Asia. Some split into Europe and the Med others into West Asia(middle east) and others into South Asia (Indian Sub- continent) Another theory is that the originate from India many thousands of years ago and not the theory somone put earlier that Indians are causasians because the british were there, more the other way round
I've once again deleted the long and free-wheeling essay posted to this page. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing changes to articles, not for giving your opinion about the use of terms in television, your opinions on political correctness in general, or your theories on the origin of "wigger" culture, as you put it. If you have concrete suggestions as to how to improve the article, please feel free to contribute them. As it is, your comments are cluttering up the talk page and far exceed what the purpose of talk pages are for. Please feel free to post them on your own user page and link to them from here if you must. - Fastfission 03:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[Note: I agree that one may reasonably object to the original post on the grounds that it was too long, and at times too broad in scope and overly speculative. I will not repost the original but will instead post the following more concise, more focused version:] Wikipediatag 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The term 'Caucasian', as used in the United States, includes southern Europeans, contrary to the claims of an earlier edition of this article that it does not. To suggest otherwise is simply inaccurate. Anyone suggesting otherwise is undoubtedly confusing and/or conflating southern Europeans with 'Latinos/Hispanics', a term which in the United States refers to persons of Latin American origin who may in fact be of any race but are often casually referred to as 'non-white'.
Wikipediatag 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I challenge the vague claim "Some authors have used it to specifically refer to Northern Europeans ..." and request documentation of who precisely these referenced authors are. Are we talking about the writings of fringe elements (such as Nordicists and/or Neo-Nazi types), or credentialed anthropologists? If the former, I think that should be stated clearly.
Just browsing around and found this section, but yeah I have too read somehwere about "pure or real" Caucasians reside naturally in Northern Europe, sorry cant give any specific places where I read it. But you have to admit Southern Europeans look less "white" or what we think of as white, Than the rest of us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.194.146 ( talk) 12:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC) Wikipediatag 13:54, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The listing referred to a "Finno-Ugrian" descent. This is rather misleading, as it groups together genetically very different people based on linguistical grounds. For example, some classify the Samoyeds as "Finno-Ugrian", and there you go. There was a theory that the speakers of Finno-Ugrian languages had a common ancestry, but this theory is discredited. Likewise, there were attempts to link Fenno-Ugrian languages with Asian ancestry. Again, this was unsuccessful (e.g. [1]), as it was more an attempt to show the "racial purity" of the Swedish. The Fennic language speakers of North Europe are genetically similar to the nearby peoples, the Hungarians are like Turkish, the peoples in Siberia are like the Siberians, etc. The language is unrelated to the "race". -- Vuo 23:15, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
My recent addition about Blumenbach believing the original humans to be white comes from "Mighty White of You" by Jack Hitt in the July 2005 issue of Harpers'. The particular citation is on p. 46. The format of references in this article didn't give me an easy way to add that in the article, so I'm putting it here for the benefit of whoever is actually working on this. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
I've begun to think this page should be merged with whites. Although I'm not saying that they are exactly the same concept, it seems to me that they are difficult to treat one in isolation from the other. In addition, as the article states, the expression Caucasian race is really only common in the United States. In other places, they necessarily fall back on terms like "white race" or "European race". - Nat Kraus e 13:13, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Caucasoid should be considered along with Caucasian race and Whites. This article is not of high quality and suffers from edit wars and material that should be in other articles. It should be stabilized with a wider consensus on what belongs there, or merged. Some discussion at Talk:Caucasoid.-- JWB 23:54, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
There are some very basic tenents in scientific Anthropolgy that should be applied. That science has become heavily revised for political correctness etc. but the concept of 3 large inclusive races of mankind still actually enjoys wide acceptance. Please leave the edit that calls attention to the inclusiveness of the term "Caucasian" it includes about 35% of the people on earth. Black Dravidian people in the south of India, light brown people in the north of India, Olive skinned people in the middle east, who become lighter as you enter the mediterranean region, and finally the very fair shinned of northern Europe, and their immigrant relations in the Americas and Australia. Spray them all the same color and their similarity is obvious!
Why doesn't "caucasian race" redirect to Caucasoid?
There has been no discussion regarding merging these two articles ("Caucasoid race" and "Caucasian race"). Is that because the consensus is for it or against it? I'm going to assume "for it" and merge the two about a week from now unless there's strong objection - Psychohistorian 18:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
They do NOT mean the same thing. "Caucasoid" is the racial term that includes "whites", Semites, Armenians, Gypsies, Irano-Afghans, North Africans, and some Indians/Pakistanis. "Caucasian" is NOT a racial term, and merely refers to anybody, or indeed anything, that originates from the Caucasus mountains, the "Caucasian" people are Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, and a few others. We can have Caucasian flora, Caucasian music etc, but NOT a "Caucasian race".....22 March 2007
Can you show me a reference that only some pakistanis/indians are classified as caucasoid as claimed by you. What is this bull shit Irano-Afghan. People of Iran look like afro asiatic middle eastners whereas Afghanistani people are distinct from the iranians or middle eastners. Have you ever been to Afghanistan , how many afghans and iranians have you seen to establish some pseudo irano-afghan bull shit category.
Thanks for the intelligent and scholarly dismissal using the scientifically valid term "bull shit", but my "Irano-Afghan bull shit" stems from the fact that while not having studied this stuff as such, I have read extensively on the subject. Oh yeah, and I AM Irano-Afghan. Please don't lower the tone of your arguments, as they are rather pithy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.190.183 ( talk) 12:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The sic in
is quite mysterious; it is not clear what is meant to be misspelled. I encountered a discussion of this issue at Talk:Caucasian#Regarding "common usage, especially in North America", which suggests nothing is incorrect here.-- Imz 18:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the part claiming africans to be white for three reason. 1.No source was provided of these claims. I know JWB says his dictionary says that but simple assertions are not enough. For all we know you could be reading a dictionary written by the kkk or black supremist group. 2. The sources provided with regards to coon claims opposite. 3. A dictionary that just says this person is this race simply isn't enough. A dictionary is not science and anyone who is literate can write one no matter how false its contents are. Dictionary's that are 50+ years old don't even recgonize native americans as humans so I have a problem with using a source that has so openly racist assertions. Also the dictionary claims that there are whites in North Africa can be taken in many ways. The way it was put in this article says that native north africans are white and no one has proven that berbers (native north africans) are white.
I do acknowledge that there are some caucasian people if you consider mid-east people to be caucasian in North Africa I don't agree that they are original inhabitants cause that is simply false. The North Africans today who are white are not natives and mostly came over when the Ottomans did and are descendents of them. First you claim Berbers are black then you claim they are white your source said they were so they are black. A book is used here from 1775 we would not use a book from 1775 in another scientific forum it is a joke and was written at a time when when blacks, indians, women, chinese were all by law property of white men and not people. It is coon website so stop trying to lie. Coons uses that percise diagram in his own book and thats why its there, so ys coon didn't make it but he certainly did use it in his book.
"All scientific sources agree that some Berbers or North Africans have little or no Negroid mixture" Not coons book or this website. Sure if all your scientific sources are coming from a time when people believed cutting your wrist let the "bad blood" that was making you sick out so you could feel better. How could a book written at a time when europeans were largely ignorant to the world even be used. Europeans didn't even have a map of the 40% of the populated world so how could already classify races by then? Anyways the berber article maintains that berbers came from east africa which are to my knowledge black for the most part. If you want to say whites live in North africa go ahead but they are not native there and according to genetics they are closets to negro followed by asian than any other race.
None of the people including the ones from Europe have been proven caucasian all asertions. I only left in europe because that is where caucaus is and that is where causcasian come from.
You have not proven or given proof that they are white. Many of them look like negroid-caucasoid mixes or caucaoisd mongoloid mixes
And you Gerkinstock - what about this silliness in Coon's work describing people in Sudan, Ethiopia, and RWANDA as extensions of Caucasoid racial types. The original inhabitents of North Africa were not "Capoid", the reason Coon put that there, was because at the time, "Capoid" was viewed as "less Black" than the "Negroid" people, and there was no way in 1930 that Coon could call Mediterranean people a "mixture of Negroid and Caucasoid" without finding himself the object of rejection in the "scientific" community of his day (or maybe he himself didn't want to humiliate his white countrymen by saying they ARE in fact mixed with Negroid characteristics). North africans are approximately 80% Caucasoid NOW... after generations of Arabization and what not, surely we all agree that the colonization of North Africa since Islam has made the region LIGHTER than it was before.... after all ARABS living in North Africa were originally inhabitents of ARABIA... NOT North Africa. -- 68.60.55.162 10:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)ZAPH
JMac, I apologize for the name-calling I engaged in earlier today, though your edits are not remotely consistent with modern anthropological and genetic POV.-- Gerkinstock 3 December 2005
In short, about 25 000 years ago, the Saharan desert was inhabited by an old human race for which I prefer a term "Neonegrid". This race is sparsely archeologically documented because of the sand cover in that region, yet it emerges very markedly in genetic studies. Neonegrids probably posessed some "Europid" features and may have looked like modern Somalis. Men of these people bore Y-haplogroup E and women mtDNA haplogroup L3. When the Sahara began to dissicate 25 000 years ago, these people moved away, and a group of them bearing Y-haplogroup subclade E3b mixed with Europid women somewhere in the north-east of Africa. Subsequently they occupied the Atlas Mountains. From this mixture, the core of today's Berbers came into being. Centrum99 01:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, first time I encountered the term "Caucasian" was when travelling to the US - but only in Singapore it started to mean anything...
Singapore officially uses the CMIO scheme, i.e. you are either Chinese, Malay, Indian or other... Whilst I disapprove of the concept and fail to understand the importance of "race" in a modern society you can't avoid the term "Caucasian" living here.
The term "Caucasian" is used as equivalent to "whites" - and it does not include Asians (i.e. also Japanese or Indian people are NOT considered Caucasian) in certainly includes fair skinned Anglo-Saxons from all parts of the world plus Western Europe and Scandinavia however besides this narrow group the line doesnt seem clear to me you would also find terms such as "Hispanic", "Latino", "Middle Eastern" and so forth.
MB 18/01/06
I have reverted the following:
which was used to replace:
While I do not have the correct terms from logic, the editor is definitely mixing arguments and/or definitions. To say that African-American is an invalid term as related to racial grouping, because we don't say that Irish-Swedish-Michigan-Americans is a valid racial grouping is, what is the word, specious?
Perhaps I am confused enough by the statements, that I am not seeing the argument? Is the editor actually proposing that African-American is seen as a separate 'race'? It all just seems like a side-slipped argument against any special circumstances (like historical events?)
Shenme 10:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Although the orthodoxy states that South Asians are classed as Caucasians/Caucasoid, the truth is that Caucasoid elements in South Asia are in a minority. Most South Asians north of the Tropic of Cancer are more or less Caucasoid, but intermingling with proto-Australoid, Dravdian and Mongoloid races have now led many anthropologists to categorise South Asians as a race unto themselves. Similar can be applied to Arabs who on the Arabian peninsular and in North Africa who are generally classed as Caucasian but are mixed with Negro blood, and the various Central/West Asians who are often mixed with Mongoloid ancestry.
The only difference that many Turks, Iranians, Arabs and Indians have with Europeans is their religion. If Khomenei was a Christian he would be viewed as being white. Samething with Zidane. Charles Azanvour who is of armenian heritage is of course viewed as being white because Armenia is a Christian nation in an area near central asia. But if he was Azeri I doubt that he would be referred as being white.
Regarding this:
Most anthropologists wouldn't determine "race" by anthropometric criteria. It would be useless and generally considered pseudoscientific these days. Anthropology as a whole does not generally accept this method of determining "race" (most anthropologists don't even use the term "race" anymore and it is generally frowned upon.) I'm removing the material until it can be attributed to specific anthropologists. This is well within wikipedia policy as it is a statment with suspect veracity--so please do not add it back until it is cited, and attributed to a source. Brentt 00:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice this article doesn't mention any modern theories as to what the actual origins of the "white"/european race may be. Seems like a pretty glaring omission. Awinkle 18:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a poor way to start the article this section should be done away with.
"The term Caucasian race is sometimes used to refer to people whose ancestry can be traced back to Europe, parts of North Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, Russia, and in certain areas of Central Asia.[2]" Caucasian race??? Also why is North Africa being thrown in with people from the Caucasian Alps area?
According to archeology and genetics these people came from Africa any way.
-- Margrave1206 03:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The following quoted statement is strange, untrue, and racist:
"caucasian variety - I have taken the name of this variety from Mount Caucasus, both because its neighbourhood, and especially its southern slope, produces the most beautiful race of men, I mean the Georgian; and because all physiological reasons converge to this, that in that region, if anywhere, it seems we ought with the greatest probability to place the autochthones(birth place) of mankind."
The placement of this statement near the beginning of the article, or anywhere for that matter, is a slick, yet nescient, attempt by a racist white editor to elevate 'caucasians' over others. Quotations such as these should not be included in such a commonly searched article unless the editor wants to attach a subtopic explaining how this 'scientist's' views could be viewed as racist by non-whites. Panda —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.24.41.126 ( talk) 19:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Huxley's Observation Thomas Huxley said, "Melanochroi are the result of an intermixture between the Xanthochroi and the Australioids." in 1870. [2] User:Veritas et Severitas has been trying to remove it. I do not understand why User:Veritas et Severitas has been trying to remove a correctly cited and verified Huxley statement.Huxley's insightful theory is further corroborated by modern anthropologists here: [http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr1.htm white people] or white people (different hosts needed to verify accuracy of transcription by corroboration) Of course, Arthur Kemp hypothesises admixture from the Middle East rather than indigenous Australians, making Huxley's theory somewhat outdated.-- Dark Tea 05:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This user should be banned once and for all. He continues to make use of White Supremacist-Nordicist sites for his propaganda. When will someone stop this guy.
What Huxley really said:
"Racial classification system In On the Methods and Results of Ethnology (1865), Huxley defined the Ulotrichi race to be one of two macroraces. This macrorace contained the Bushmen, Negrito, Negroes and Mincopies. The other, the Leiotrichi, contained the Amphinesians, Americans, Melanochroi, Xanthochroi, Australians, Esquimaux and Mongolians.
Huxley defined the Mincopies to be the indigenous peoples of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
The Xanthochroi were defined to be the indigenous peoples from the Rhine east to the Yenisei and from the Urals south to the Hindu Kush. Included were the Scandinavians, Germans, Slavonians and Finns. Also included were some of the Greeks, Turks, Kirghiz, Mantchous, Ossetes, Siahposh and Rohillas. He described them as having fair skin, yellow or red hair, blue eyes and long or broad heads. Huxley's concept was influential in the development of the theory of the Nordic race.
The Melanochroi were defined as the indigenous peoples of Southern Europe, the Middle East, Southwest Asia and North Africa. Huxley described this region as having a Y shape. He included in this category some of the British, Gauls, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, Syrians, Arabs and Persians, as well as the Celts, Iberians, Etruscans, Romans, Pelasgians, Berbers, Saharans, North Africans and Semites. He described them as having pale skin and wavy hair, with abundant beards, black hair, long heads and dark eyes."
Then he speaks about dark Melanochroi, which are not the people he mentioned above.
Now look at Dark version and his constant misinterpretations and his obsessions:
"Another 19th century anthropologist, Thomas Huxley, considered the scope of Caucasian to be inaccurate and "absurd", claiming darker Caucasians such as Southern Europeans & Middle Easterns were actually hybrids of light-skinned Northern European Caucasians and indigenous dark-skinned Australians. [1]"
But what is more important. From a 19th century theory that is today outdated and ridiculous he tries to make it insightful, constantly naming the fascist white supremacist site Stormfront: For those who are not familiar with these people see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_%28website%29,
Or the fascist white supremacist-Nordicist propagandist Arthur Kemp and March of the Titans I need say no more. I hope you can draw your own conclusions about this guy once and for all. I say it again an RFC should be open about this guy and ban him for good. He is not a good will contributor, just a white supremacist-Nordicist propagandist in Wiki.
I find it awkward to have to explain this, but what is Dark T. constant agenda: The same as the sites above, which is:
1. They proclaim the superiority of the Nordic race.
2. They encounter a problem for their theory when they find that most ancient civilizations were in the Mediterranean basin, not in their Nordic lands.
3. They solve the problem, saying:
a) If fact all those civilizations were Nordic.
b) Then Non-Whites invaded and mixed with the Nordics, the result being the current population of the Mediterrean.
c) That fact brought about the end of those civilizations.
e) That is going to happen again in white countries.
Another variety is that those "Mediterraneans" just disappeared by miscegenetion, but not Nordics, thus also solving the problem of having to deal with a "race" that makes their claims look embarrassing, in their minds.
I hope that people can begin to see the light now. But you can read yourselves the sites that Dark T. constantly introduces and proposes as "insightful". Veritas et Severitas 17:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Stormfront is considered a hate group site, an extremely racist site, a white supremacist site and a Nordicist propaganda site and a Nazi site. Anyone who constantly introduces it in several pages in Wiki can legitimately be called any of those terms, and those who defend them highly suspicious of the same ideology. POV pushing is always bad for Wiki, when it is that kind of POV pushing it is a disaster. Veritas et Severitas 01:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Stormfront is considered a hate group site, an extremely racist site, a white supremacist site and a Nordicist propaganda site and a Nazi site. Anyone who constantly introduces it in several pages in Wiki can legitimately be called any of those terms, and those who defend them highly suspicious of the same ideology. POV pushing is always bad for Wiki, when it is that kind of POV pushing it is a disaster. Veritas et Severitas 01:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
this page has been nominated for deletion by me. i think its time that we actually have a Keep or delete vote ove rthis sort of pages. and im proud over it.-- Matrix17 19:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
So then, I think the term Caucasian then should be considered to include only people who resemble Whites other than the Whites themselves - such as the some Arabs (from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine etc.), European-looking Jews, Turkish, Kalash and some Pashtun peoples. The term should have excluded the Dravidian Indians because they don't resemble the Whites at all.
Is it just me, or is the picture of the girl too informal? It doesn't strike me as very encyclopedic. The Behnam 18:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Go look at the black race article and see if you can find this quote:
Sarah A Tishkoff and Kenneth K Kidd state, "Despite disagreement among anthropologists, this classification remains in use by many researchers, as well as lay people."[13] According to Leonard Lieberman, Rodney C. Kirk, and Alice Littlefield, the concept of race has all but been completely rejected by modern mainstream anthropology.[14]
Every other race is real, except caucasians or "whites". So let's just jump in the melting pot...
Right. Thanks. Gotcha'
Yeah, just delete the article. I'd rather it not even exist than be this blatantly politically motivated. And oh yeah, if you do decide to rewrite it, get some better sources:
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362319/posts http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4275695.stm http://threehegemons.tripod.com/thre...log/id139.html http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-bai042505.php http://www.ajc.com/health/content/he...8genetics.html http://www.cmh.pitt.edu/newsrace.htm http://www.emedicine.com/DERM/topic221.htm http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/...pages/race.htm http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo...sics/race.html http://redcrossgulfcoast.org/faq.htm www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/810321/posts http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-an...?msg_id=005pWH http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...0/deedric1.htm http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org...cConstruct.pdf http://www.goodrumj.com/Edwards.pdf http://www.pioneerfund.org/Weyher_pdf.pdf http://www.jonentine.com/skeptic/sarich.htm http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...7/ED263680.DTL http://www.policyreview.org/DEC01/satel.html http://jacksonville.com/login.shtml?...t_6870358.html http://www.ncpa.org/iss/hea/2002/pd073002a.html http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6705 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html http://www.fda.gov/cder/reports/race...ity_report.htm http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-psf051005.php http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...¬Found=true http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed...shton/Race.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/genetic_markers.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/nyt_dec2002_palette.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/dna_...ess_blacks.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/genome_bwg.htm http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html http://mednews.stanford.edu/releases...acial-data.htm http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php http://query.nytimes.com/gst/health/...54C0A9629C8B63 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=19640 http://www.world-science.net/exclusi...28_racefrm.htm http://www.world-science.net/exclusi...28_racefrm.htm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10113382/site/newsweek/
-- Ιουστινιανός 23:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Only PC left-wing liberal wankers feel that there is no such thing as "race". To claim such a thing one must surely be blind. For the diversity of humanity is what makes everyone unique and deepens all our cultures.
As for Caucasian race: if one wants to be correct, it should only refer to White european descended people. Arabs, Egyptians, Indians, Semites, some Siciallians and Spaniards etc are NOT caucasians. AS someone already pointed out clearly , they are mixed with Africans, Mongoloids, Australoids, etc.
It matters not if some Indians have similar brachial indices as whites, that is only one parameter out of many that need to be considered.
Our 3-tiered classification (Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid, + Australoid) needs to be expanded and re-defined.
This statement is inaccurate on several counts.
-- JWB 08:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be drastically changed. This is NOT because i beleive that race does not exist. To claim such a thing, one must be both blind and in denial.
I am sick of wanting to LEARN about the different people of the earth, but end up reading non sense. An article about, eg Caucasians, should focus on origins, characeristics and history, etc. Instead this article goes on and on about definitions and limitations of terminology, and what caucasian means in brazil vs australia.
Yes there are limitations to classifying people according to race. This should be mentioned, but the article should continue, not keep drumming on about it. And i do not think that have races promotes racism, in fact if anything it will accelerate tolerance.
No offence to the original author, but it needs to be written by a real anthropologist, not a left-wing liberal arts pussy
And finally, it should not include much on the Caucasian countries (ie people from the caucasus). This article is about the Caucasian race. Anyone who is not a cretin knows (roughly) what caucasian refers to. Hxseeker 15:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
can you please use the talkpage for your "Indian" debate. It is perfectly unclear what the image of the Rajasthani woman is doing here. The article only has
there is nothing to indicate that this particular Rajasthani woman would have been classified as "Caucasian" even before 1923. If the article is missing information, do add it. From the ethnographic map, it is clear that Indian population was considered a mix between "Aryans" and Dravidians, and the lighter skinned people from the northern regions may have been classified as "Caucasian" at some point, due to their admixture of Central Asian ancestry. Nowhere, however, is it stated that the entire Indian subcontinent was included in "Caucasian". To the contrary, the 1890 map shows a green "Dravidian" blob in Rajasthan, apparently precisely to account for the dark skinned Rajasthani population. dab (𒁳) 16:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Most definitions of the term, including definition one in the opening statement of this very article, have nothing to do with white skin, and specifically include most people of South Asia. Example,
[3]
Caucasian and its more restricted synonym Caucasoid belong to the system of racial classification proposed by European anthropologists in the 18th and 19th centuries. These terms refer to a broad group of peoples indigenous to Europe, western Asia, northern Africa, and much of the Indian subcontinent.
Others use skin color from light to brown as one of the characteristics, while specifically inclding South Asia [4]:
Anthropology Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use.
The original definition was based on craniology (note that skulls cannot indicate skin color). Also, there is enough research that concludes that all people in Europe, Middle East or America are mixed to some extent with Mongoloids (remember
Genghiz Khan), Negroids, Native Americans etc. There is also research that says that Dravidian/Indo-Aryan mixing has not been very significant. Anyway, I don't think we should be focussing on such collection of "research evidence" here, since the term is no longer in academic use. The fact that Indo-Aryans are included in a very significant number of historical and current definitions of the term (except some folk definitions) should be enough. Also, there is no basis for the assumption that darkness of skin is directly proportional to the extent of Dravidian mixing. Also, the US judiciary example is simply given to illustrate the fact that "in the US, Caucasian has been mainly a distinction, based on skin color, for a group commonly called White Americans" -- a definition that is different from the one used elsewhere. From my UC Berkeley lectures on American history, I also remember that their legal definition of White in late 19th and early 20th century excluded Irish and Italians too (because "only Protestants can be White") The 1890 map should also be compared with later maps, like the one below.
{{
Carleton S. Coon Racial Definitions}}
Note that Carleton S. Coon believed that Dravidians were too Caucasoids "due to their Caucasiod skull structure and other physical traits (e.g. noses, eyes, hair.)". Bottomline, from the beginning (original craniology definitions) till today, a majority of notions have clearly included most Indians, some of them Dravidians too, regardless of their skin color. I think a picture that illustrates the fact that the term has not always been strongly linked to skin color, like it is linked by some people today really adds value to the article. deeptrivia ( talk) 20:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Coon's The Races of Europe of 1939 (not 1960) may be noted, but in the heydey of "scientific racism", Dravidians were certainly not considered "Caucasoid" (see Racial groups in India (historical definitions)). dab (𒁳) 11:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the racial concept, not the Peoples of the Caucasus. As such, images should be chosen because an RS has used them to illustrate something about the racial concept, rather than including images of the actual people of the Caucasus. The Behnam 20:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid I cannot accept this as a bona fide argument, since you can apply it to any article on any ethnicity or racial group, whatsoever. We need to apply common sense here. As I've already pointed out at Talk:White people#Photos:
I propose the following criteria for image choice:
- identifiable ethnicity. The image source must give the region of origin of the person depicted, not just generic "white".
- aesthetic portrait, not just a random snapshot.
- historical images should be preferred, but they have the disadvantage of being b/w. Ideal are early colour photographs
- avoid famous people
- White Americans have their own article. They are not ideal for this one, since their 'ethnicity of origin' can rarely be determined
possibilities matching these criteria I can find are are: Image:Armeniangirl.jpg (two Armenian girls); Image:0000233523-004.jpg (Georgian girl); Image:Persian local woman.jpg (Persian girl); Image:Palestinian girl in Qalqiliya.jpg (Palestinian girl). I am sure we can find many others. The aim should be to present at least four images, covering Europe, Central Asia, North Africa and the Near East. The problem seems indeed to be that white people are somehow not considered "ethnic", and uploaders are often content to just describe the image as "blond man" or similar, without stating region of origin.
This reluctance to illustrate "white" racial concepts (while at the same time Black people is literally plastered with images) is pathological. Definitions of "race" by skin colour is an optical thing. It isn't valid anthropologically, as you can read up on race, but we can bloddy well illustrate what gave the concept its appeal over several centuries (and popularly to the present day). dab (𒁳) 19:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
DarkTea, we state correctly that the blue area is labelled "Caucasian race" in the the map legend. See Image:Meyers b11 s0476a.jpg. Try to check things that are refernced before removing things. The classification of Dravidians is pertinent because they were classified as "Caucasian" by one author. We need to point out that this author was the exception. I agree that the New Zealand bit may be offtopic. dab (𒁳) 15:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The gallery consisting of random images of children is irrelevant to the article for several reasons, children were never used as examples by physical anthropologists, only fully grown individuals could display sufficiently developed facial features to be used as good examples, and more importantly, no scholar has pointed these exact children out as belonging to the race, so using them is pretty much original research. Only authorised anthropological plates and similar images composed by actual physical anthropologists should be used. Funkynusayri 22:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
wtf? Behnam, can you not tell us plainly what point it is you want to make instead of this silly edit warring over perfectly relevant images? Can you stop the silliness and present some sort of coherent argument instead? Funkynusayri, I agree images of adults would be better (but the 1881 Georgian girl is a young adult, and the image is perfect to illustrate the Blumenbach quote). The problem is that there seems to be some systemic bias towards uploading images of pretty girls. I assure you I wasn't looking for girls specifically, but all the usable images I was able to find on commons happened to be of girls. For instance, look at commons:Category:Tamils: all the males are either famous blokes or part of some scene (as opposed to mere portraits). There is Image:Tamil boy in vetti.jpg, but that's (a) also a child, and (b) photographed from an angle that doesn't make it a good portrait. Image:Tamil girls group.jpg otoh is excellent. We'll have to work what we've got. dab (𒁳) 19:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
From WP:Images#Pertinence and encyclopedicity, "Images must be relevant to the article they appear in and be of sufficient notability (relative to the article's topic)":
Unless a picture is we can establish both of the notability and relevance of a picture, we cannot use it. In this situation, the pictures are not notable and we have no legitimate way to establish relevance, so these pictures cannot be used. If we are careful to make sure both criteria are met before adding a picture, then we should be able to avoid further "arbitrary" disputes and silly gallery-making. The Behnam 19:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
the "Armenian girls" are left over from a revision that had several images illustrating the "Caucasian type". There is no point in keeping them as an isolated example. There is no reason to illustrate Armenians in particular, we just happened to have a nice image of Armenians. The image of the Georgian woman is different, since Georgians are explicity mentioned as having served as Blumenbach's inspiration. dab (𒁳) 11:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
These images are not representative of the "caucasian race" they should be removed. Muntuwandi 14:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
What images? The one you just removed is from a German book which states they're "Europäids", which is synonymous with Caucasoid.
From the book: "Menschenrassen († Taf. Sp. 440, 441): Europäide (weiße) Hptrasse in Europa u. Vorderasien; Unterrassen: Nordische (Gesicht schmal, Augen blau, Haar blond) in Skandinavien, N-Dtschl. (I, 1); Dinarische (Rundschädel, Augen u.Haare dunkel) in Ostalpen, West- u. Nordbalkan (I, 2); Mittelländische oder Westische (klein, Augen u. Haare dunkel, hellbraun) in den Mittelmeerländern (I, 3|; Alpine oder Ostische (Gesicht niedrig, mit »Stumpfnase«, Augen und Haare dunkel, untersetzt) in gebirgigen
Erich Mendelsohn.
Gegenden Mitteleuropas (1,4); Ostbaltische (Gesicht breit mit vorstehenden Backenknochen, Haar blond, Augen grau) in Rußland, Polen, Böhmen, Balkan (I, 5); Vorderasiatische (Nase gebogen, Hinterhaupt »wie abgehackt«) in Kleinasien (1,6); Orientalische (Langschädel, Haare und Augen dunkel) in Arabien, Persien (I, 7); Ostmediterrane (Langschädel, schlank, dunkel, Haar wellig) in 0-Iran und Indien (I, 8-10)."
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Meyers_Blitz-Lexikon/0236 Funkynusayri 14:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC) can't read german Muntuwandi 15:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Where is the info on the craniology and what physical characteristics of caucasoid people are? It seems like it is gone. Zachorious 01:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
For some reason, Americans of European descent redirects here. This would be inaccurate. One is a racial category that is losing favor in anthropology, and the other is a ethno-regional category. The two are not tied at the hip. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salsassin ( talk • contribs) 09:29, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Usually excluding southern Europeans? (maybe the author of that sentence was an American usually confusing Latin Americans with Spaniards or Italians?) From where I stand, this article still lacks labour and must be improved. I am not going to make any suggestions at the moment.
Yes I think it is a pure american view of the concept. anyway we don't speak about "caucasian" in Europe. Nobody except the people who live in those mountains (Chechenians, azerbaidjans, armenians, etc...) would describe himself as "caucasian". Most people consider himself as "white", even if in Europe we generally don't identificate with a "race" but with cultural-linguistic groups. The latins, for exemple, are the people who speak a latin romance language (french, italians, spanish, portuguese), and, even if they have generally more dark-hair than the northener people, they have always been "White". The american view of "latin" is biaised by the fact that most of the romance-language speakers in USA are mostly of native indian or mestizo origins (non-white). So the latin word have been badly used to describe these people who didn't enter really in white or amerindian categories.
-- GTubio 20:53, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Dark Tea the Moors you were talking about BELONG to CAUCASIAN race too!!! They were predominantly of BERBER descent (and lots of them are very light in complexion: Zinedine Zidane is a good example of this). I wonder why people in USA treat Souther European like they were "mestizos"._Sabrina-4 August 2007
The claim is not that skin color is unrelated to genetics - that would be silly. The claim is that there is no set of genetic characteristics that defines "the black race" as separate from "the white race" - that is to say that genetics cannot be used as the primary means of drawing racial lines. You have to resort to appearance - i.e. skin color. Not to a particular genetic sequence. This is not an obviously untrue claim, and I'd like to see some evidence against it before you revert it again. Snowspinner 06:44, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor 66.185.84.80: please take the time to read some modern scientific text on population genetics, and you will perhaps understand why that sentence is not POV. Trying to give a quick summary, some of the major discoveries in question (that 18th century anthopologists did not know about) are: (1) humans have tens (hundreds?) of thousands of genes, which are inherited independently and randomly from either parent; so classifying people by the visible characteristics like skin color and skull shape makes as much sense as classifying cars by their windshield decals. (2) there are no "pure races", not even "somewhat pure" ones: even when one looks at the "purest" races, there is much more genetic variation within each race than between the means of the two races. (3) even the most paranoid racial barriers are leaky as a sieve, so over a millenium or two any social group will become genetically very similar to the neighboring populations, and vice-versa -- even if the group continues to maintain its "ethnic" identity. And so on.
Because of these reasons, it is simply impossible to give any sound basis to the old concept of "race"; it would be like asking a car mechanic to provide a link between engine power and windshield decals. There simply isn't such thing as a "Caucasian gene" or even a "Caucasian gene set". An article which does not say this clearly would be doing a bad service to its readers.
Jorge Stolfi
09:34, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, one problem with defining rece that way is that there would be no clear-cut boundary between such "races", so labels like "Caucasian race" would become completely arbitrary. One could as well define a "United States race" as meaning (among other things) X% black skin, Y% white skin, etc. Another problem is that you would not be able to say whether an individual belongs to a given race or not: if "race" A is defined as 40% blue eyes, 60% black (and other things), while "race" B is the other way around, to which race does a blue-eyed individual belong?
This problem becomes much worse when you consider all genes instead of two or three. With 30 genes, each having two variants, you could define about one billion different "pure races", and an infinitude of gene distributions.
A more fundamental problem is that genes get inherited independently, and those which are bad/good for a given environment are quickly selected out/in while those that are indifferent just drift around. White skin may be an advantage in colder climates, but is a definite disadvantage if you live in the tropics at low altitude. (Spend a couple of hours under the sun in a tropical beach, without suncreen, and you will understand why.)
This problem is made worse by our modern understanding of how genes work. For instance, black skin involves complicated mechanisms for manufacturing and regulating melanin, depositing it in the right places, etc. etc. All humans have the genes needed for that mechanism, but white-skinned people ("Caucasian" as well as "Asian") have a small genetic defect somewhere that prevents the mechanism from working properly. Obviously this defect has nothing to do with intellectual capability or whatever other attribute that, according to old-style racial theorists, are associated with skin color.
For these and other reasons, modern population genetics does not even try to define the concept of "race". It s not that the geneticists don't like the idea, they just cannot figure out a way to define "Caucasian race" or "Nordic race" or "Jewish race" in any way that would make sense.
The measured amount of genetic variation in the entire human population is extremely small; genetically we are very similar. Indeed, 93% of all genetic variability occurs within Africa; the human groups with the greatest differences between them occur in Africa (See: Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, Piazza, 1994; Cavalli-Sforza, 2004). In this sense it as logical to compare Nigerians with Swedes, in inherent biological terms, as it is to compare Nigerians and South Africans.
All the best,
Jorge Stolfi
16:00, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
...
<there is no set of genetic characteristics>
There most certainly is, it just hasn’t been isolated yet.
In one of my high school classes during a disscusion about Condoleezza Rice, a slightly ditzy classmate remarked, (after the teacher had made a statement, describing her as black): "Yeah, but she's not THAT black." I think she was on to something; what black race? Caucasian race? never heard of it! Leon W, 6 Nov 2005.
...
BiDil anyone? http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2005/NEW01190.html
A drug tailored specifically to a "self-identified black patient". I think that should be some indication that there are in fact marked differences between certain human populations, just as African-Americans(I mean that in the strictest sense; The peoples of west Africa brought to the U.S.) are FAR more susceptible to Sickle Cell Anemia. http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/scdmanage.html
August 26, 2006
"Within strict anthropological discourse the term is useful in identifying a very large group of people who present certain general physical characteristics"
What's the source for this claim?? AFAIK most biological anthropologists would use 'indo-european' rather than a term as empirically dubious as 'caucasian'. While this article makes clear the problems with the term, I don't think it does enough to make clear how discredited it is among the scientific community.
Sorry JWB, you are wrong, “Indo-European” is definitely not only a linguistic term (not longer). In recent time the meaning has been extended. Note, I am not a professional in this matter, but there must be a mention / explanation about the relation of “Indo-European” and “Caucasian race” in this anthropologic topic. How’s such an exactly will look, I cannot say.
Please note, I do not equate “Indo-European” 1:1 with “Caucasian race”, I absolutely recognize “Indo-European” as a subset of some larger human classification.
A solution could be, “In newer times, a lot of “biological anthropologists “have started to use “Indo-European” (in meaning for an “ethnic European group”) rather than a term as “Caucasian”. (Or something equal, my English is not perfect.)
However, as already mentioned, in the current version, this article ignores completely this important information. -- lorn10 23:45, 24. June 2006 (CEST)
Indians are referred to as Caucasian? really? see Image:Map of skin color distribution.gif according to which East Asians have a lighter complexion that Indians. dab 12:22, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Actually, the darker features in the Indian subcontinent come from pre-Aryan peoples, particularly the Dravidians.---BDH
That's not fully correct. The oldest inhabitants of India were people belonging to the called "Coastal Clan I". They reached this region probably ca. 60 000 years ago and bore Y-haplogroup C and mtDNA haplogroup M. Anthropologically they can be classified as "vedd(o)ids" and their current descendants are some primitive dark-skinned tribes in India and the Vedda in Sri Lanka.
The second human layer in India were the so-called "dalits" (as they are called today), archaic europids bearing Y-haplogroup H, who penetrated into India from the west perhaps more than 30 000 years ago, eliminated (killed?) the majority of "Coastal Clan" men and mixed with their women. These people now make up 1/3 or even more of Indian lower castes and tribal groups. They are even ancestors of the European Roma. "Pure" dalits in India are thus basically mixed Europid-Veddid people.
The third basic human layer in India are the Dravidians, agriculturalists from Baluchistan, who penetrated into the Indus Valley in the 4th millenium BC and created the famous "Indus Valley Civilization". They bore Y-haplogroup L and probably even a subclade of Y-haplogroup J. It was probably Dravidians, who set up some sort of the caste system, because the admixture of the dalit H-lineages in Dravidian upper castes is very low. Since they mostly took dalit women - as it usually is in new invaders - , they partly acquired Veddid appearance.
The fourth and last basic layer in India were the Aryans from southern Russia speaking an Indo-European language. They got to India from north-west around 1500 BC and predominantly bore Y-haplogroup R1a1. It is possible that before Aryans, some Aryan population was already present in northern India (maybe the so-called Dasya from Indian legends), because Indian R1a1 is highly diverse. The Aryan invasion probably also brought Y-haplogroup R2 from Central Asia. In any case, Aryans defeated both the Dasya and Dravidians; Dravidian nobles fled to southern India and a large part of the dalits followed them. The north-west of India was actually largely "cleaned" on ethnical basis; remaining Dravidians and dalits were largely subdued and "de-casted". The Aryans set up a very strict caste system that, however, allowed some interethnic admixture of the Aryans into the Dravidian upper castes during the following milleniums. From some reason, a part of some dalit nobles was left on middle Ganga and joined the Aryans.
Thus (according to Sengupta et al. 2006) current upper Aryan castes in India mostly contain Y-haplogroups R1a1 (45%), R2 (16%) and H (13%). The Aryan tribal groups and lower castes actually consist of subdued Dalits and possibly mysterious Dasya, as the high presence of H (24-33%) and R1a1 (10-26%) shows. Dravidian lineages (L, J2a) are generally rare in Indian Aryans (but possibly much common in Pakistan), which also indicates that Dravidians didn't occupy the whole territory of India before the Aryan invasion - only the Indus Valley.
The Dravidian upper castes mostly contain R1a1 (29%), L (17%) and J2a (15%), but surprisingly low dalit admixture (H: 8%). On the other hand, dalit lineages are frequent among middle Dravidian castes (34%), together with L (19%) and J2b (19%) that got to India somehow from the Near East. The Dravidian tribes mainly consist of subdued dalits (37%) and even mongoloid groups (O: 27%) that probably occupied the east of India before their arrival. The presence of Y-haplogroup C (the "Veddid" lineage) is very low across the whole India (max. 4%) Centrum99 01:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(though Americocentric should not mean offensive)
Southern Europeans are described as "Latins"? Maybe by you they are. Are Greeks Latins? Maltese? Cypriots? They're all Southern Europeans.
The opening paragraph does not even make clear that this "concept" is entirely discredited! There's no such thing as a "Caucasian race". The term is used loosely in the US for "whites" but that doesn't mean it has any reality.
As noted, in Europe, "Caucasians" are people from the Caucusus, nothing more, nothing less. I noted Dbachmann's reversion of some changes. He said in his edit summary that they were not "NPOV". Well no, but neither's this article as it stands. I think some of the changes could have been incorporated, in more moderate language. Dr Zen 09:30, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
PLEASE TAKE NOTE- THIS IS IMPORTANT!
Colour is not the onlt thing that determnines a race, race is also about features. e.g. if you make a European persons skin colour darker and their hair they would look that far off from somone who is from India, middle east or meditarrian. This is because their features are similar (not the same) However this will not be the case for Oriental people or Black people as features such as hair nose lips are different.
Also the Causasian or White race as it is known these days comes from a part of Asia called Caucaus hence these Europeans are from Asia. Some split into Europe and the Med others into West Asia(middle east) and others into South Asia (Indian Sub- continent) Another theory is that the originate from India many thousands of years ago and not the theory somone put earlier that Indians are causasians because the british were there, more the other way round
I've once again deleted the long and free-wheeling essay posted to this page. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing changes to articles, not for giving your opinion about the use of terms in television, your opinions on political correctness in general, or your theories on the origin of "wigger" culture, as you put it. If you have concrete suggestions as to how to improve the article, please feel free to contribute them. As it is, your comments are cluttering up the talk page and far exceed what the purpose of talk pages are for. Please feel free to post them on your own user page and link to them from here if you must. - Fastfission 03:42, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[Note: I agree that one may reasonably object to the original post on the grounds that it was too long, and at times too broad in scope and overly speculative. I will not repost the original but will instead post the following more concise, more focused version:] Wikipediatag 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The term 'Caucasian', as used in the United States, includes southern Europeans, contrary to the claims of an earlier edition of this article that it does not. To suggest otherwise is simply inaccurate. Anyone suggesting otherwise is undoubtedly confusing and/or conflating southern Europeans with 'Latinos/Hispanics', a term which in the United States refers to persons of Latin American origin who may in fact be of any race but are often casually referred to as 'non-white'.
Wikipediatag 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I challenge the vague claim "Some authors have used it to specifically refer to Northern Europeans ..." and request documentation of who precisely these referenced authors are. Are we talking about the writings of fringe elements (such as Nordicists and/or Neo-Nazi types), or credentialed anthropologists? If the former, I think that should be stated clearly.
Just browsing around and found this section, but yeah I have too read somehwere about "pure or real" Caucasians reside naturally in Northern Europe, sorry cant give any specific places where I read it. But you have to admit Southern Europeans look less "white" or what we think of as white, Than the rest of us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.194.146 ( talk) 12:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC) Wikipediatag 13:54, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The listing referred to a "Finno-Ugrian" descent. This is rather misleading, as it groups together genetically very different people based on linguistical grounds. For example, some classify the Samoyeds as "Finno-Ugrian", and there you go. There was a theory that the speakers of Finno-Ugrian languages had a common ancestry, but this theory is discredited. Likewise, there were attempts to link Fenno-Ugrian languages with Asian ancestry. Again, this was unsuccessful (e.g. [1]), as it was more an attempt to show the "racial purity" of the Swedish. The Fennic language speakers of North Europe are genetically similar to the nearby peoples, the Hungarians are like Turkish, the peoples in Siberia are like the Siberians, etc. The language is unrelated to the "race". -- Vuo 23:15, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
My recent addition about Blumenbach believing the original humans to be white comes from "Mighty White of You" by Jack Hitt in the July 2005 issue of Harpers'. The particular citation is on p. 46. The format of references in this article didn't give me an easy way to add that in the article, so I'm putting it here for the benefit of whoever is actually working on this. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:56, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
I've begun to think this page should be merged with whites. Although I'm not saying that they are exactly the same concept, it seems to me that they are difficult to treat one in isolation from the other. In addition, as the article states, the expression Caucasian race is really only common in the United States. In other places, they necessarily fall back on terms like "white race" or "European race". - Nat Kraus e 13:13, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Caucasoid should be considered along with Caucasian race and Whites. This article is not of high quality and suffers from edit wars and material that should be in other articles. It should be stabilized with a wider consensus on what belongs there, or merged. Some discussion at Talk:Caucasoid.-- JWB 23:54, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
There are some very basic tenents in scientific Anthropolgy that should be applied. That science has become heavily revised for political correctness etc. but the concept of 3 large inclusive races of mankind still actually enjoys wide acceptance. Please leave the edit that calls attention to the inclusiveness of the term "Caucasian" it includes about 35% of the people on earth. Black Dravidian people in the south of India, light brown people in the north of India, Olive skinned people in the middle east, who become lighter as you enter the mediterranean region, and finally the very fair shinned of northern Europe, and their immigrant relations in the Americas and Australia. Spray them all the same color and their similarity is obvious!
Why doesn't "caucasian race" redirect to Caucasoid?
There has been no discussion regarding merging these two articles ("Caucasoid race" and "Caucasian race"). Is that because the consensus is for it or against it? I'm going to assume "for it" and merge the two about a week from now unless there's strong objection - Psychohistorian 18:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
They do NOT mean the same thing. "Caucasoid" is the racial term that includes "whites", Semites, Armenians, Gypsies, Irano-Afghans, North Africans, and some Indians/Pakistanis. "Caucasian" is NOT a racial term, and merely refers to anybody, or indeed anything, that originates from the Caucasus mountains, the "Caucasian" people are Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, and a few others. We can have Caucasian flora, Caucasian music etc, but NOT a "Caucasian race".....22 March 2007
Can you show me a reference that only some pakistanis/indians are classified as caucasoid as claimed by you. What is this bull shit Irano-Afghan. People of Iran look like afro asiatic middle eastners whereas Afghanistani people are distinct from the iranians or middle eastners. Have you ever been to Afghanistan , how many afghans and iranians have you seen to establish some pseudo irano-afghan bull shit category.
Thanks for the intelligent and scholarly dismissal using the scientifically valid term "bull shit", but my "Irano-Afghan bull shit" stems from the fact that while not having studied this stuff as such, I have read extensively on the subject. Oh yeah, and I AM Irano-Afghan. Please don't lower the tone of your arguments, as they are rather pithy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.190.183 ( talk) 12:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The sic in
is quite mysterious; it is not clear what is meant to be misspelled. I encountered a discussion of this issue at Talk:Caucasian#Regarding "common usage, especially in North America", which suggests nothing is incorrect here.-- Imz 18:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the part claiming africans to be white for three reason. 1.No source was provided of these claims. I know JWB says his dictionary says that but simple assertions are not enough. For all we know you could be reading a dictionary written by the kkk or black supremist group. 2. The sources provided with regards to coon claims opposite. 3. A dictionary that just says this person is this race simply isn't enough. A dictionary is not science and anyone who is literate can write one no matter how false its contents are. Dictionary's that are 50+ years old don't even recgonize native americans as humans so I have a problem with using a source that has so openly racist assertions. Also the dictionary claims that there are whites in North Africa can be taken in many ways. The way it was put in this article says that native north africans are white and no one has proven that berbers (native north africans) are white.
I do acknowledge that there are some caucasian people if you consider mid-east people to be caucasian in North Africa I don't agree that they are original inhabitants cause that is simply false. The North Africans today who are white are not natives and mostly came over when the Ottomans did and are descendents of them. First you claim Berbers are black then you claim they are white your source said they were so they are black. A book is used here from 1775 we would not use a book from 1775 in another scientific forum it is a joke and was written at a time when when blacks, indians, women, chinese were all by law property of white men and not people. It is coon website so stop trying to lie. Coons uses that percise diagram in his own book and thats why its there, so ys coon didn't make it but he certainly did use it in his book.
"All scientific sources agree that some Berbers or North Africans have little or no Negroid mixture" Not coons book or this website. Sure if all your scientific sources are coming from a time when people believed cutting your wrist let the "bad blood" that was making you sick out so you could feel better. How could a book written at a time when europeans were largely ignorant to the world even be used. Europeans didn't even have a map of the 40% of the populated world so how could already classify races by then? Anyways the berber article maintains that berbers came from east africa which are to my knowledge black for the most part. If you want to say whites live in North africa go ahead but they are not native there and according to genetics they are closets to negro followed by asian than any other race.
None of the people including the ones from Europe have been proven caucasian all asertions. I only left in europe because that is where caucaus is and that is where causcasian come from.
You have not proven or given proof that they are white. Many of them look like negroid-caucasoid mixes or caucaoisd mongoloid mixes
And you Gerkinstock - what about this silliness in Coon's work describing people in Sudan, Ethiopia, and RWANDA as extensions of Caucasoid racial types. The original inhabitents of North Africa were not "Capoid", the reason Coon put that there, was because at the time, "Capoid" was viewed as "less Black" than the "Negroid" people, and there was no way in 1930 that Coon could call Mediterranean people a "mixture of Negroid and Caucasoid" without finding himself the object of rejection in the "scientific" community of his day (or maybe he himself didn't want to humiliate his white countrymen by saying they ARE in fact mixed with Negroid characteristics). North africans are approximately 80% Caucasoid NOW... after generations of Arabization and what not, surely we all agree that the colonization of North Africa since Islam has made the region LIGHTER than it was before.... after all ARABS living in North Africa were originally inhabitents of ARABIA... NOT North Africa. -- 68.60.55.162 10:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)ZAPH
JMac, I apologize for the name-calling I engaged in earlier today, though your edits are not remotely consistent with modern anthropological and genetic POV.-- Gerkinstock 3 December 2005
In short, about 25 000 years ago, the Saharan desert was inhabited by an old human race for which I prefer a term "Neonegrid". This race is sparsely archeologically documented because of the sand cover in that region, yet it emerges very markedly in genetic studies. Neonegrids probably posessed some "Europid" features and may have looked like modern Somalis. Men of these people bore Y-haplogroup E and women mtDNA haplogroup L3. When the Sahara began to dissicate 25 000 years ago, these people moved away, and a group of them bearing Y-haplogroup subclade E3b mixed with Europid women somewhere in the north-east of Africa. Subsequently they occupied the Atlas Mountains. From this mixture, the core of today's Berbers came into being. Centrum99 01:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, first time I encountered the term "Caucasian" was when travelling to the US - but only in Singapore it started to mean anything...
Singapore officially uses the CMIO scheme, i.e. you are either Chinese, Malay, Indian or other... Whilst I disapprove of the concept and fail to understand the importance of "race" in a modern society you can't avoid the term "Caucasian" living here.
The term "Caucasian" is used as equivalent to "whites" - and it does not include Asians (i.e. also Japanese or Indian people are NOT considered Caucasian) in certainly includes fair skinned Anglo-Saxons from all parts of the world plus Western Europe and Scandinavia however besides this narrow group the line doesnt seem clear to me you would also find terms such as "Hispanic", "Latino", "Middle Eastern" and so forth.
MB 18/01/06
I have reverted the following:
which was used to replace:
While I do not have the correct terms from logic, the editor is definitely mixing arguments and/or definitions. To say that African-American is an invalid term as related to racial grouping, because we don't say that Irish-Swedish-Michigan-Americans is a valid racial grouping is, what is the word, specious?
Perhaps I am confused enough by the statements, that I am not seeing the argument? Is the editor actually proposing that African-American is seen as a separate 'race'? It all just seems like a side-slipped argument against any special circumstances (like historical events?)
Shenme 10:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Although the orthodoxy states that South Asians are classed as Caucasians/Caucasoid, the truth is that Caucasoid elements in South Asia are in a minority. Most South Asians north of the Tropic of Cancer are more or less Caucasoid, but intermingling with proto-Australoid, Dravdian and Mongoloid races have now led many anthropologists to categorise South Asians as a race unto themselves. Similar can be applied to Arabs who on the Arabian peninsular and in North Africa who are generally classed as Caucasian but are mixed with Negro blood, and the various Central/West Asians who are often mixed with Mongoloid ancestry.
The only difference that many Turks, Iranians, Arabs and Indians have with Europeans is their religion. If Khomenei was a Christian he would be viewed as being white. Samething with Zidane. Charles Azanvour who is of armenian heritage is of course viewed as being white because Armenia is a Christian nation in an area near central asia. But if he was Azeri I doubt that he would be referred as being white.
Regarding this:
Most anthropologists wouldn't determine "race" by anthropometric criteria. It would be useless and generally considered pseudoscientific these days. Anthropology as a whole does not generally accept this method of determining "race" (most anthropologists don't even use the term "race" anymore and it is generally frowned upon.) I'm removing the material until it can be attributed to specific anthropologists. This is well within wikipedia policy as it is a statment with suspect veracity--so please do not add it back until it is cited, and attributed to a source. Brentt 00:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice this article doesn't mention any modern theories as to what the actual origins of the "white"/european race may be. Seems like a pretty glaring omission. Awinkle 18:42, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a poor way to start the article this section should be done away with.
"The term Caucasian race is sometimes used to refer to people whose ancestry can be traced back to Europe, parts of North Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, Russia, and in certain areas of Central Asia.[2]" Caucasian race??? Also why is North Africa being thrown in with people from the Caucasian Alps area?
According to archeology and genetics these people came from Africa any way.
-- Margrave1206 03:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The following quoted statement is strange, untrue, and racist:
"caucasian variety - I have taken the name of this variety from Mount Caucasus, both because its neighbourhood, and especially its southern slope, produces the most beautiful race of men, I mean the Georgian; and because all physiological reasons converge to this, that in that region, if anywhere, it seems we ought with the greatest probability to place the autochthones(birth place) of mankind."
The placement of this statement near the beginning of the article, or anywhere for that matter, is a slick, yet nescient, attempt by a racist white editor to elevate 'caucasians' over others. Quotations such as these should not be included in such a commonly searched article unless the editor wants to attach a subtopic explaining how this 'scientist's' views could be viewed as racist by non-whites. Panda —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.24.41.126 ( talk) 19:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Huxley's Observation Thomas Huxley said, "Melanochroi are the result of an intermixture between the Xanthochroi and the Australioids." in 1870. [2] User:Veritas et Severitas has been trying to remove it. I do not understand why User:Veritas et Severitas has been trying to remove a correctly cited and verified Huxley statement.Huxley's insightful theory is further corroborated by modern anthropologists here: [http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr1.htm white people] or white people (different hosts needed to verify accuracy of transcription by corroboration) Of course, Arthur Kemp hypothesises admixture from the Middle East rather than indigenous Australians, making Huxley's theory somewhat outdated.-- Dark Tea 05:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This user should be banned once and for all. He continues to make use of White Supremacist-Nordicist sites for his propaganda. When will someone stop this guy.
What Huxley really said:
"Racial classification system In On the Methods and Results of Ethnology (1865), Huxley defined the Ulotrichi race to be one of two macroraces. This macrorace contained the Bushmen, Negrito, Negroes and Mincopies. The other, the Leiotrichi, contained the Amphinesians, Americans, Melanochroi, Xanthochroi, Australians, Esquimaux and Mongolians.
Huxley defined the Mincopies to be the indigenous peoples of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
The Xanthochroi were defined to be the indigenous peoples from the Rhine east to the Yenisei and from the Urals south to the Hindu Kush. Included were the Scandinavians, Germans, Slavonians and Finns. Also included were some of the Greeks, Turks, Kirghiz, Mantchous, Ossetes, Siahposh and Rohillas. He described them as having fair skin, yellow or red hair, blue eyes and long or broad heads. Huxley's concept was influential in the development of the theory of the Nordic race.
The Melanochroi were defined as the indigenous peoples of Southern Europe, the Middle East, Southwest Asia and North Africa. Huxley described this region as having a Y shape. He included in this category some of the British, Gauls, Spanish, Italians, Greeks, Syrians, Arabs and Persians, as well as the Celts, Iberians, Etruscans, Romans, Pelasgians, Berbers, Saharans, North Africans and Semites. He described them as having pale skin and wavy hair, with abundant beards, black hair, long heads and dark eyes."
Then he speaks about dark Melanochroi, which are not the people he mentioned above.
Now look at Dark version and his constant misinterpretations and his obsessions:
"Another 19th century anthropologist, Thomas Huxley, considered the scope of Caucasian to be inaccurate and "absurd", claiming darker Caucasians such as Southern Europeans & Middle Easterns were actually hybrids of light-skinned Northern European Caucasians and indigenous dark-skinned Australians. [1]"
But what is more important. From a 19th century theory that is today outdated and ridiculous he tries to make it insightful, constantly naming the fascist white supremacist site Stormfront: For those who are not familiar with these people see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_%28website%29,
Or the fascist white supremacist-Nordicist propagandist Arthur Kemp and March of the Titans I need say no more. I hope you can draw your own conclusions about this guy once and for all. I say it again an RFC should be open about this guy and ban him for good. He is not a good will contributor, just a white supremacist-Nordicist propagandist in Wiki.
I find it awkward to have to explain this, but what is Dark T. constant agenda: The same as the sites above, which is:
1. They proclaim the superiority of the Nordic race.
2. They encounter a problem for their theory when they find that most ancient civilizations were in the Mediterranean basin, not in their Nordic lands.
3. They solve the problem, saying:
a) If fact all those civilizations were Nordic.
b) Then Non-Whites invaded and mixed with the Nordics, the result being the current population of the Mediterrean.
c) That fact brought about the end of those civilizations.
e) That is going to happen again in white countries.
Another variety is that those "Mediterraneans" just disappeared by miscegenetion, but not Nordics, thus also solving the problem of having to deal with a "race" that makes their claims look embarrassing, in their minds.
I hope that people can begin to see the light now. But you can read yourselves the sites that Dark T. constantly introduces and proposes as "insightful". Veritas et Severitas 17:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Stormfront is considered a hate group site, an extremely racist site, a white supremacist site and a Nordicist propaganda site and a Nazi site. Anyone who constantly introduces it in several pages in Wiki can legitimately be called any of those terms, and those who defend them highly suspicious of the same ideology. POV pushing is always bad for Wiki, when it is that kind of POV pushing it is a disaster. Veritas et Severitas 01:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Stormfront is considered a hate group site, an extremely racist site, a white supremacist site and a Nordicist propaganda site and a Nazi site. Anyone who constantly introduces it in several pages in Wiki can legitimately be called any of those terms, and those who defend them highly suspicious of the same ideology. POV pushing is always bad for Wiki, when it is that kind of POV pushing it is a disaster. Veritas et Severitas 01:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
this page has been nominated for deletion by me. i think its time that we actually have a Keep or delete vote ove rthis sort of pages. and im proud over it.-- Matrix17 19:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
So then, I think the term Caucasian then should be considered to include only people who resemble Whites other than the Whites themselves - such as the some Arabs (from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine etc.), European-looking Jews, Turkish, Kalash and some Pashtun peoples. The term should have excluded the Dravidian Indians because they don't resemble the Whites at all.
Is it just me, or is the picture of the girl too informal? It doesn't strike me as very encyclopedic. The Behnam 18:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Go look at the black race article and see if you can find this quote:
Sarah A Tishkoff and Kenneth K Kidd state, "Despite disagreement among anthropologists, this classification remains in use by many researchers, as well as lay people."[13] According to Leonard Lieberman, Rodney C. Kirk, and Alice Littlefield, the concept of race has all but been completely rejected by modern mainstream anthropology.[14]
Every other race is real, except caucasians or "whites". So let's just jump in the melting pot...
Right. Thanks. Gotcha'
Yeah, just delete the article. I'd rather it not even exist than be this blatantly politically motivated. And oh yeah, if you do decide to rewrite it, get some better sources:
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362319/posts http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4275695.stm http://threehegemons.tripod.com/thre...log/id139.html http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-bai042505.php http://www.ajc.com/health/content/he...8genetics.html http://www.cmh.pitt.edu/newsrace.htm http://www.emedicine.com/DERM/topic221.htm http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/...pages/race.htm http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo...sics/race.html http://redcrossgulfcoast.org/faq.htm www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/810321/posts http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-an...?msg_id=005pWH http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...0/deedric1.htm http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org...cConstruct.pdf http://www.goodrumj.com/Edwards.pdf http://www.pioneerfund.org/Weyher_pdf.pdf http://www.jonentine.com/skeptic/sarich.htm http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...7/ED263680.DTL http://www.policyreview.org/DEC01/satel.html http://jacksonville.com/login.shtml?...t_6870358.html http://www.ncpa.org/iss/hea/2002/pd073002a.html http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6705 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html http://www.fda.gov/cder/reports/race...ity_report.htm http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-psf051005.php http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...¬Found=true http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed...shton/Race.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/genetic_markers.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/nyt_dec2002_palette.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/dna_...ess_blacks.htm http://www.racesci.org/in_media/genome_bwg.htm http://www.bloodbook.com/world-abo.html http://mednews.stanford.edu/releases...acial-data.htm http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php http://query.nytimes.com/gst/health/...54C0A9629C8B63 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=19640 http://www.world-science.net/exclusi...28_racefrm.htm http://www.world-science.net/exclusi...28_racefrm.htm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10113382/site/newsweek/
-- Ιουστινιανός 23:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Only PC left-wing liberal wankers feel that there is no such thing as "race". To claim such a thing one must surely be blind. For the diversity of humanity is what makes everyone unique and deepens all our cultures.
As for Caucasian race: if one wants to be correct, it should only refer to White european descended people. Arabs, Egyptians, Indians, Semites, some Siciallians and Spaniards etc are NOT caucasians. AS someone already pointed out clearly , they are mixed with Africans, Mongoloids, Australoids, etc.
It matters not if some Indians have similar brachial indices as whites, that is only one parameter out of many that need to be considered.
Our 3-tiered classification (Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid, + Australoid) needs to be expanded and re-defined.
This statement is inaccurate on several counts.
-- JWB 08:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
This article needs to be drastically changed. This is NOT because i beleive that race does not exist. To claim such a thing, one must be both blind and in denial.
I am sick of wanting to LEARN about the different people of the earth, but end up reading non sense. An article about, eg Caucasians, should focus on origins, characeristics and history, etc. Instead this article goes on and on about definitions and limitations of terminology, and what caucasian means in brazil vs australia.
Yes there are limitations to classifying people according to race. This should be mentioned, but the article should continue, not keep drumming on about it. And i do not think that have races promotes racism, in fact if anything it will accelerate tolerance.
No offence to the original author, but it needs to be written by a real anthropologist, not a left-wing liberal arts pussy
And finally, it should not include much on the Caucasian countries (ie people from the caucasus). This article is about the Caucasian race. Anyone who is not a cretin knows (roughly) what caucasian refers to. Hxseeker 15:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
can you please use the talkpage for your "Indian" debate. It is perfectly unclear what the image of the Rajasthani woman is doing here. The article only has
there is nothing to indicate that this particular Rajasthani woman would have been classified as "Caucasian" even before 1923. If the article is missing information, do add it. From the ethnographic map, it is clear that Indian population was considered a mix between "Aryans" and Dravidians, and the lighter skinned people from the northern regions may have been classified as "Caucasian" at some point, due to their admixture of Central Asian ancestry. Nowhere, however, is it stated that the entire Indian subcontinent was included in "Caucasian". To the contrary, the 1890 map shows a green "Dravidian" blob in Rajasthan, apparently precisely to account for the dark skinned Rajasthani population. dab (𒁳) 16:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Most definitions of the term, including definition one in the opening statement of this very article, have nothing to do with white skin, and specifically include most people of South Asia. Example,
[3]
Caucasian and its more restricted synonym Caucasoid belong to the system of racial classification proposed by European anthropologists in the 18th and 19th centuries. These terms refer to a broad group of peoples indigenous to Europe, western Asia, northern Africa, and much of the Indian subcontinent.
Others use skin color from light to brown as one of the characteristics, while specifically inclding South Asia [4]:
Anthropology Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use.
The original definition was based on craniology (note that skulls cannot indicate skin color). Also, there is enough research that concludes that all people in Europe, Middle East or America are mixed to some extent with Mongoloids (remember
Genghiz Khan), Negroids, Native Americans etc. There is also research that says that Dravidian/Indo-Aryan mixing has not been very significant. Anyway, I don't think we should be focussing on such collection of "research evidence" here, since the term is no longer in academic use. The fact that Indo-Aryans are included in a very significant number of historical and current definitions of the term (except some folk definitions) should be enough. Also, there is no basis for the assumption that darkness of skin is directly proportional to the extent of Dravidian mixing. Also, the US judiciary example is simply given to illustrate the fact that "in the US, Caucasian has been mainly a distinction, based on skin color, for a group commonly called White Americans" -- a definition that is different from the one used elsewhere. From my UC Berkeley lectures on American history, I also remember that their legal definition of White in late 19th and early 20th century excluded Irish and Italians too (because "only Protestants can be White") The 1890 map should also be compared with later maps, like the one below.
{{
Carleton S. Coon Racial Definitions}}
Note that Carleton S. Coon believed that Dravidians were too Caucasoids "due to their Caucasiod skull structure and other physical traits (e.g. noses, eyes, hair.)". Bottomline, from the beginning (original craniology definitions) till today, a majority of notions have clearly included most Indians, some of them Dravidians too, regardless of their skin color. I think a picture that illustrates the fact that the term has not always been strongly linked to skin color, like it is linked by some people today really adds value to the article. deeptrivia ( talk) 20:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Coon's The Races of Europe of 1939 (not 1960) may be noted, but in the heydey of "scientific racism", Dravidians were certainly not considered "Caucasoid" (see Racial groups in India (historical definitions)). dab (𒁳) 11:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the racial concept, not the Peoples of the Caucasus. As such, images should be chosen because an RS has used them to illustrate something about the racial concept, rather than including images of the actual people of the Caucasus. The Behnam 20:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid I cannot accept this as a bona fide argument, since you can apply it to any article on any ethnicity or racial group, whatsoever. We need to apply common sense here. As I've already pointed out at Talk:White people#Photos:
I propose the following criteria for image choice:
- identifiable ethnicity. The image source must give the region of origin of the person depicted, not just generic "white".
- aesthetic portrait, not just a random snapshot.
- historical images should be preferred, but they have the disadvantage of being b/w. Ideal are early colour photographs
- avoid famous people
- White Americans have their own article. They are not ideal for this one, since their 'ethnicity of origin' can rarely be determined
possibilities matching these criteria I can find are are: Image:Armeniangirl.jpg (two Armenian girls); Image:0000233523-004.jpg (Georgian girl); Image:Persian local woman.jpg (Persian girl); Image:Palestinian girl in Qalqiliya.jpg (Palestinian girl). I am sure we can find many others. The aim should be to present at least four images, covering Europe, Central Asia, North Africa and the Near East. The problem seems indeed to be that white people are somehow not considered "ethnic", and uploaders are often content to just describe the image as "blond man" or similar, without stating region of origin.
This reluctance to illustrate "white" racial concepts (while at the same time Black people is literally plastered with images) is pathological. Definitions of "race" by skin colour is an optical thing. It isn't valid anthropologically, as you can read up on race, but we can bloddy well illustrate what gave the concept its appeal over several centuries (and popularly to the present day). dab (𒁳) 19:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
DarkTea, we state correctly that the blue area is labelled "Caucasian race" in the the map legend. See Image:Meyers b11 s0476a.jpg. Try to check things that are refernced before removing things. The classification of Dravidians is pertinent because they were classified as "Caucasian" by one author. We need to point out that this author was the exception. I agree that the New Zealand bit may be offtopic. dab (𒁳) 15:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The gallery consisting of random images of children is irrelevant to the article for several reasons, children were never used as examples by physical anthropologists, only fully grown individuals could display sufficiently developed facial features to be used as good examples, and more importantly, no scholar has pointed these exact children out as belonging to the race, so using them is pretty much original research. Only authorised anthropological plates and similar images composed by actual physical anthropologists should be used. Funkynusayri 22:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
wtf? Behnam, can you not tell us plainly what point it is you want to make instead of this silly edit warring over perfectly relevant images? Can you stop the silliness and present some sort of coherent argument instead? Funkynusayri, I agree images of adults would be better (but the 1881 Georgian girl is a young adult, and the image is perfect to illustrate the Blumenbach quote). The problem is that there seems to be some systemic bias towards uploading images of pretty girls. I assure you I wasn't looking for girls specifically, but all the usable images I was able to find on commons happened to be of girls. For instance, look at commons:Category:Tamils: all the males are either famous blokes or part of some scene (as opposed to mere portraits). There is Image:Tamil boy in vetti.jpg, but that's (a) also a child, and (b) photographed from an angle that doesn't make it a good portrait. Image:Tamil girls group.jpg otoh is excellent. We'll have to work what we've got. dab (𒁳) 19:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
From WP:Images#Pertinence and encyclopedicity, "Images must be relevant to the article they appear in and be of sufficient notability (relative to the article's topic)":
Unless a picture is we can establish both of the notability and relevance of a picture, we cannot use it. In this situation, the pictures are not notable and we have no legitimate way to establish relevance, so these pictures cannot be used. If we are careful to make sure both criteria are met before adding a picture, then we should be able to avoid further "arbitrary" disputes and silly gallery-making. The Behnam 19:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
the "Armenian girls" are left over from a revision that had several images illustrating the "Caucasian type". There is no point in keeping them as an isolated example. There is no reason to illustrate Armenians in particular, we just happened to have a nice image of Armenians. The image of the Georgian woman is different, since Georgians are explicity mentioned as having served as Blumenbach's inspiration. dab (𒁳) 11:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
These images are not representative of the "caucasian race" they should be removed. Muntuwandi 14:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
What images? The one you just removed is from a German book which states they're "Europäids", which is synonymous with Caucasoid.
From the book: "Menschenrassen († Taf. Sp. 440, 441): Europäide (weiße) Hptrasse in Europa u. Vorderasien; Unterrassen: Nordische (Gesicht schmal, Augen blau, Haar blond) in Skandinavien, N-Dtschl. (I, 1); Dinarische (Rundschädel, Augen u.Haare dunkel) in Ostalpen, West- u. Nordbalkan (I, 2); Mittelländische oder Westische (klein, Augen u. Haare dunkel, hellbraun) in den Mittelmeerländern (I, 3|; Alpine oder Ostische (Gesicht niedrig, mit »Stumpfnase«, Augen und Haare dunkel, untersetzt) in gebirgigen
Erich Mendelsohn.
Gegenden Mitteleuropas (1,4); Ostbaltische (Gesicht breit mit vorstehenden Backenknochen, Haar blond, Augen grau) in Rußland, Polen, Böhmen, Balkan (I, 5); Vorderasiatische (Nase gebogen, Hinterhaupt »wie abgehackt«) in Kleinasien (1,6); Orientalische (Langschädel, Haare und Augen dunkel) in Arabien, Persien (I, 7); Ostmediterrane (Langschädel, schlank, dunkel, Haar wellig) in 0-Iran und Indien (I, 8-10)."
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Meyers_Blitz-Lexikon/0236 Funkynusayri 14:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC) can't read german Muntuwandi 15:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Where is the info on the craniology and what physical characteristics of caucasoid people are? It seems like it is gone. Zachorious 01:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
For some reason, Americans of European descent redirects here. This would be inaccurate. One is a racial category that is losing favor in anthropology, and the other is a ethno-regional category. The two are not tied at the hip. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Salsassin ( talk • contribs) 09:29, 29 June 2010 (UTC)