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To write an article about Catholicism can only indicate that it will be written by Catholics. This means no atheists, Protestants, Jews, Satanists or anything else. Every other religion is to keep out of it. If this requirement is not kept then the whole article will be nothing more than confusion, incorrect guesses, delusions, and verbal gymnastics that can only come from misplaced hatred of what the non-Catholic thinks the Catholic Church is. Anathasius ( talk) 01:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The only source that is credible would be one that is written by Catholics who know their religion. Who are these scholars that you are talking about? By what authority are they considered credible on the subject of Catholicism. Your edit can only be accurate by the accuracy of your references. If your references are ill founded, of course you will have chaos. By the way, Catholicism is a 2000 year old religion. It is not nor will it ever be a concept. Anathasius ( talk) 05:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest a major merge from "Catholic" & "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" to "Catholicism." (the latter is referenced from the "Christianity Template") These ought not to be merged with "Roman Catholic Church" but ought to point out that not all Catholics are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but that the Roman Catholic Church is the largest Catholic Church today. It ought to talk about the history of the words catholic and apostolic, discuss breifly the use of the words as they apply to a survey of the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation (both the Magisterial Reformation and the Radical Reformation - the former considered itself to be Catholic while the latter rejected this), and contemporary usage among modern Protestants (i.e. Neo-Lutheans and Reforming Catholics: I find the term Neo-Lutheran to be misleading, all the Reformers including Luther took seriously the charge of schism and innovation and maintained the position that they were Catholic).
It ought to thus talk about how Christians from Eastern Christianity, Western Christianity, and Protestantism (as well as non-Christian) think of the words "Catholic" and "Catholicism" in context and in a NPOV manner, rather from an exclusively Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox POV.
These three articles are essentially the same except that "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" discusses the word "Apostolic" in relation to Catholicity. "Catholicism" is rather long and and so much of the content that is rather specific to either of the afore mentioned Christian Catholic Groups ought to be moved to their own respective articles to focus the article. (Information about Roman Catholicism specifically ought to be moved under the "Roman Catholic Church" article for example.)
The "Catholic (disambiguation)" ought to remain to redirect people to the correct article.
Hodijah 15:09, 04 October 2006
I'm sure this proposal will raise a ruckus. I just don't see the point of having both articles.
Yes, I know that this has been proposed before and the claim is that there IS a difference between Roman Catholic Church and Catholicism. If you read the INTRO to this article, it sounds like there is a plausible distinction between this article and that one. However, if you read the CONTENT of this article, you will find that 75% or more of the content in this article is duplicated in the Roman Catholic Church. So again, what's the point?
-- 69.236.189.158 06:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems rather foolish to have the two separate entries, but I think we're probably better off relegating all the turf war stuff about who should call themselves 'Catholic' to this post while talking about the Catholic Church as a historical entity under the Catholic Church/Roman Catholic Church.
Given the communal nature of the Wikipedia, and in order not to have to spend half the Catholic Church article discussing who might possibly claim to be part of the Catholic Church, I vote that we keep the articles separate as a peacekeeping measure. Brendanhodge 06:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
We have greeco catolics, asirian catholics, so it's not the same.
The two articles should be merged with the appropriate redirects, while distinguishing the Roman Rite from the other Rites of the Catholic Church. JBogdan 16:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Object. This is a point that has been made before: large numbers of people outside the Roman church use the word catholicism to refer to beliefs they hold (the members of Affirming Catholicism, for example). This is a neutral encylopedia and so should record the fact. I think the article makes this clear already. Perhaps what is necessary is a separate page on Catholic doctrine on which all the repeated material can go. MAG1 20:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I also object. Not all Catholics are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Fishhead64 06:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
"Catholicism" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are clearly two different things. "isms" are descriptions of the collections of practices, and sometimes the motivations behind them, as they have influenced or are influencing action, and may vary depending on which branch or aspect of the "ism" you are talking about, and the meaning of which is often largely open to debate, whereas the Church is an "entity". No credible encyclopedia would fail to have an entry for the "Roman Catholic Church". This would really be an attempt to merge two separate topics, with the consquent loss of a substantial amount of information which could not rightly be placed in an article about the Roman Catholic Church. pat8722 14:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Merging thefollowing articles would be benificial: "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" "Catholic" and "Catholicism" Butwe aught not to merge these with "Roman Catholic Church" because there are other churches such as the Eastern Orthodox, Neo-Lutherans, and Calvinists who emphasis a "Reformed Catholicity." (The Protestant Reformers took seriously the charge of schism and inovation claiming the mideval church had left them and they were simply reforming the Catholic church. But to be sure there are anti-catholic churches. The word Protestant has come to indicate these churches almost exclusivly promting many Protestants with high church leanings to prefer designations like "Reformed" "Evangelical" and even "Reformed/Reforming Catholic.")
I object to merging "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" with "Roman Catholic Church" or "Catholicism." Although most of the material does have to do with Roman Catholicism, I think it should be re-written in a more NPOV manner and/or merged with ecumenism. Confiteordeo 19:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion is a waste of time. Why is that? If we were investigating Jews we wouldn't ask a nazi to give us his explanation. You would naturally go to someone that has a close interest with the Jews. Possibly even a loving relationship with the Jews. If you want to know what Catholicism is all about you must go to Catholic books which explain in detail what it means to be Catholic. You can start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as a religion which is Protestant that is also called Catholic. If they do they certainly are not being sincere.
76.205.117.6 (
talk)
04:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Mergimg articles would create a ton of complaints, requests to un-merge, ect... 75% may be duplicates, but much of the 25% would be lost in attempting to create continuity. Why are we even having this discussion. The Romans murdered hundreds of Catholics. As said before, a Jewish person would give their view, while a Nazi would give their own view. -- Vock ( talk) 08:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I boldly removed the sacraments section; on the basis that a) It largely contains material also contained in Catholic sacraments, and b) Churches that consider themselves Catholic do not all have the same beliefs about sacraments, and the section largely documents Roman Catholic beliefs.
It was reverted with the comment "rv: not all Christian churches believe in them all, therefore the sacraments section is needed".
I accept that it is valid and useful to mention sacraments; but is there any reason to do so in full when several articles exist already containing largely this content?
It might be useful to have a section explaining the different beliefs about sacraments of different churches calling themselves Catholic (for example, Anglican churches often only recognise baptism and eucharist as sacraments, and administer chrismation and confirmation, if both are used, separately); but this section doesn't really do that.
Thoughts? TSP 16:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Somewhere along the line, an issue has come up in the sacraments section, under Confirmation. As an Anglican, CHRSMATION can occur at Baptism, but Confirmation can ONLY be done by a young adult (or older) who is ready to confirm the choice to accept the church. I'm pretty sure that's true for Lutherans, as well. As written, it appears to say only Roman Catholics are confirmed as young adults, while Anglicans confirm potentially as infants, an absurdity. Can someone who has a better handle on the specific theology for all of the effected groups please correct this? It looks like an honest mistake, but it's a biggie. I know it's got to just be because of particularly poor word choice. Bill Ward 19:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by W.E.Ward.III ( talk • contribs).
I think that the phrase "even in infants who have committed no actual sins" should be rephrased as the word actual suggests that the doctrine of original sin is optional, and is just generally misleading. im going to substitute "who have not personally comitted and sins" but that isnt a very elegant turn of phrse. Ill try to come up with something better. -- Phil 20686 18:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe I can help you with this one. Catholics believe an infant can enter heaven, whether they are baptised or not, baptism washes away the original sin, unbaptized adults can enter Heaven, and that honestly stating their love for Our Lord will save them and grant them access to Heaven —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vock ( talk • contribs) 09:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church#Mass_Merging Dominick (TALK) 20:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Add reference demonstrating that the Church of England asserts apostolic succession This reference does not say that. I can't see WP:V Dominick (TALK) 18:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Eastern Orthodox Church is not recognized, mutually or otherwise, as a sui iuris Catholic Church The claims that Orthodoxy is Sui Juris are pretty well know Lima. Any expansion? Dominick (TALK) 14:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Ancient Church of the East, which has split from the last, are all more than sui iuris, and might even consider it an insult to be compared with the autonomous Churches within the the Catholic Church. But they are not acknowledged as Catholic by the Catholic Church. They do not recognize each other mutually as Catholic. Each recognizes only itself as Catholic. But I think I now understand the quite valid distinction Dominick wishes to place in the text, and I have tried to express it in my latest editing. Lima 15:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Reference to Vatican I as an instance of the Church calling herself the "Roman Catholic Church" is absurd.
What is at issue here in all of these naming debates is simple: There are qualities of a church and there are names. These are two different things. Credal and consiliar statements (credal formulae are consiliar statements) are discussions of qualities, not names.
The Catholic Church has always been called by the same name with very minor and rare exceptions. These exceptions should be stated, but Vatican I is not an example of naming.
There is not other institution by the name "Catholic Church." Every other institution which claims to be "catholic" or "Catholic" in the adjectival sense has a name. And non of them is named "The Catholic Church." There is no ambiguity.
Anglicans and others may take offense. But they cannot take the name of the Catholic Church. When they do so, they imply that the Catholic Church only began with the Reformation, which is ridiculous in the extreme. -- Vaquero100 13:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the paragraph before this. If this was just a personal opnion: "The point is not that Anglicans and others claim the catholic church came into being in the reformation, but that they have continuity with the pre-reformation catholic church and so remain part of it" then I would have no qualms but this is a statement with theological significance and thus it would be best not to manifest such a view unless it can be backed up with plenty of historical as well as theological verifiable data. No other church in the world has more history about the Christian Religion than then Roman Catholic Church (Example Document of the RCC Vatican Archives [ [1]] ). In conclusion, all statements must be made in light of verifiable data and the most accepted interpretation according to its context, and for that statement above it would be theological in context.
Thanks to whoever edited it, it brought my attention to it. ( Gimmetrow 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC))
Very well, and accurately, put.
I suggest that we merge the article Roman Catholicism with Catholicism instead of merging Catholicism with Roman Catholicism. The reason is that Roman Catholicism refers to one rite of Catholicism which is the Latin/Western rite. Catholicism, on the other hand refers to all the rites. Another reason is that there are many pseduo-Catholic groups such as the SSPX that would do well to go under an article titled "Catholicism" instead of "Roman Catholicism" as once again "Roman Catholicism", often refers to Catholicism which is in communion with the Vatican/Holy See. -- PaladinWriter 12:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A new WikiProject focussing on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion has just been initiated: WikiProject Anglicanism. Our goal is to improve and expand Anglican-reltaed articles. If anyone (Anglican or non-Anglican) is interested, read over the project page and consider signing up. Cheers! Fishhead64 06:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
At the moment Catholicism, Catholic and Catholic Church (disambiguation) seem to be doing essentially the same thing: describing the different meanings attached to the term 'Catholic' in a theological context.
Catholic Church (disambiguation) obviously sets out to do this in the form of a disambiguation page, but it doesn't do it all that well, so this page probably fulfils that role just as well as that one does (essentially, the reader either wants Roman Catholic Church, in which case they will find the link prominently at the head of the article; or they mean something more theoretical, in which they need something a bit more extensive than a simple (and very long, but still incomplete) list of churches claiming in one way or another to be 'Catholic').
Catholic and Catholicism, meanwhile, seem to cover pretty much exactly the same ground - unsurprisingly, as one is just the noun form of the other; and Wikipedia policy tells us that the adjective should be redirected to the noun.
If you don't agree that these pages should all be merged, could someone at least explain what the distinct roles of these three pages are meant to be, so that they can be rewritten to fulfil different roles, rather than the same role? TSP 21:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
In answer to your (FearÉIREANN's) edit comment:
I really can't see where it has been debated in any of the talk page archives. A few times it's been proposed by one person; another single person has disagreed; it's been dropped. There never seems to have been a debate, or any proper consensus sought. If, as you say, Catholic is meant to examine non-religious meanings, what is meant to be the content of that article? What is there that is worthy of an encyclopedia, rather than a dictionary, to say about the word "Catholic" which is not the religious meanings? What encyclopedic content is covered by "Catholic" and not by "Catholicism"? Can't we leave on the tags and see if anyone can actually explain what these two (three, indeed) separate pages are meant to be about? TSP 22:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion strikes me as disingenuous. The noun term "Roman Catholic Church" is clearly not identical to the adjective "Catholic," which is clearly not identical to the noun "Catholicism." That there is a common grounding with respect to the meaning of the Koine Greek term "Catholic" is pretty much all that these subjects have in common. Is this somehow not obvious...? Merging is clearly not called for. -- 66.69.219.9 15:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Catholic Church (disambiguation) was created for a specific purpose. It was created as a compromise to an ongoing debate
[2]. It is a disambiguation page not an article. It is not suitable for a merge into an article. I feel that to merge this page would start the whole debate again. --
WikiCats
04:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
There has to be a disambiguation page for the term "Catholic Church". What do you propose we use for that, if not this page? --
WikiCats
05:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Your going to have to convince a lot of people for this to happen. At this point you have no support. --
WikiCats
13:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was do not merge.--
WikiCats
04:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
You may wish to take up Fishhead's suggestion and propose a merge of Catholic in to Catholicism. If that's the case, someone should put the appropriate merge notices on those pages. -- WikiCats 04:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I would support a merge of
Catholic in to
Catholicism. They are about the same subject, so there should not be two articles. --
WikiCats
11:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
There are three in agreement on this merge and no one against. The first thing to do is move all the unique content from Catholic over to Catholicism. -- WikiCats 04:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "Catholicism" and "Catholic" aught to be merged and keeping this new merged article seperate from "Roman Catholic Church" for reasons stated above, and we aught to keep the disambiguation page to help direct people to the correct article.-- 208.191.143.197 16:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that Catholicism should be used primarily to designate a reduction of Catholic belief to a system. The term is late and despite authors like De Lubac does not fully do justice to the rediscovery of the patristic heritage in the twentieth century, e.g. at Vatican II. Catholic Chuch/faith/belief should normally be used as substitutes. Catholicity also is deserving of an entry----Clive Sweeting
The external links provided fail NPOV standards. Not alone does the list exclude criticism, the list contains unambiguously supportive spin all the way through. External links, like reading lists, should provide a broad range of analyses, not promotional material for one viewpoint. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 14:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Amen. I say, get rid of them all since they all have a particular "take" on Catholicism and none are the total picture. Wikipedia is not a directory!
The subject term has been drafted to read as follows:
Catholic (from Greek καθολικός, from καθόλου, in general: κατα-, according to, in keeping with + ὅλου, neuter genitive of ὅλος, whole), from Greek katholikos, from phrase "kath' holou," from kata "about" + genitive of holos "whole"...
Some have taken the route of an interpretive translation of Catholic to be "universal," which means literally "one verse." This, again, is an interpretive and not literal translation, as "one verse" does not come close to "about whole" in the conveyance of meaning. An interlinear, direct translation is the only way to avoid the destruction of meaning...which is quite profound with respect to "about whole", which implies a touch of humility along with a profound embracement of the powerful concepts underlying the word "whole" (holy, holistic, integral, integrity, etc.) -- 66.69.219.9 15:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Rather than the anonymous (66.69.219.9) user's idea of "universal" - or rather "universe" - as meaning "one verse", surely most people will prefer the derivation in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English language:
Κατά (kata) does not mean "about" in any form of Greek - can Anonymous quote even one passage where it is used in that sense? The Greek for "about" (both in the sense of "concerning" and in that of "around") is περί (peri), as in Matthew 2:8, 3:4, 4:6, 6:28, 8:18 etc. etc.
See the online etymology dictionary entry for Catholic; there "kata" is being defined as meaning "about." In any case, I think we may be converging on violent agreement that some form of "whole" is a vastly better translation of Catholic than "universal" -- in particular because "whole" simply carries more appropriate meaning in today's vernacular, but also because the first meaningful definition of universal which you've quoted above in fact refers to "whole" as well. Clearly, "universal" (notably, BTW, an adjective...not an action-verb such as you describe above) and "universe" both miss the mark in terms of translating "Catholic." Whenever possible, a good translator will retain similar or identical phonetics of the original word.
Also notably, even the Catholic Church refers to itself as "one, holy (very clearly derived from the Greek holos, "whole")...Church" -- not a "universal" one.
There are reasons that Latin is a dead language. Latin has nothing to do with the original Scriptures, and the Church has abandoned it accordingly. -- 66.69.219.9 22:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S. "Anonymous" is a vastly more appropriate term when applied to Wikipedia profile-names, as you should be well aware; i.e., IP addresses on Wikipedia are vastly less anonymous than a profile name. -- 66.69.219.9 22:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Since the anonymous editor does not like to be referred to as "Anonymous", I shall call him "66" (only two sixes). I am glad to see that what 66 said about the meaning of κατά is not his own imagination, but due to a mistake in on online source (though 66's statement that κατά means "about" in Koine Greek does seem to be his imagination). Since TSP is absolutely right in his comment on the Catholic Talk page, I now indicate in the article the meaning given to the Greek word καθολικός in the authoritative Greek-English lexicon of Liddell and Scott. Lima 04:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the dictionary definition, not as a ploy to push certain books or types of language, but becuase I think the OED definition is fuller and makes clearer the sorts of issues discussed in the article, and in these talk pages (sometimes ad nauseam).
Bravo Lima. MAG1 20:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
And, of course, the thing about "holy" being derived from "holos" is completely of the mark - that might be the correct etymology but only concerns the English translation. In Latin it would be "Sancta", "Hagia" in Greek and "Kedosh" (or something like this) in Hebrew. Originally it means "set apart from other things for a special purpose" The name the church calls herself by is, in line with the Nicene creed, "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" - every epithet denoting a different aspect - the Catholic denoting the "Universality" as opposed being restricted to time, place, class, occupation. Str1977 (smile back) 12:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone add the date of John Paul ii's statements about women Catholic priests - and addd some information on the general subject please? Jackiespeel 23:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no criticism setion, alot of ppl have bad things to say about how dumb they think catholics are. While the above poster is irrelevant, there are many known criticisms of the history and origins of Catholicism, including its strong roots in Paganism, including rituals and beliefs.
I was wondering why there didn't appear to be any mention of the many international paedophile scandals in the Catholic church and the huge amount of compensation that has been paid out in consequence. It would be dishonest to pretend that it wasn't something that most people associate with the Catholic church. Maybe I missed it as I only skim-read the article.
SteveRamone 22:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The Catholic Church is the only Church that has come out with the pedophile scandal. I have many pages of Protestant ministers that have been convicted of perversion with young children. Not only that there is a very strong interest in public school teachers all over the nation that have had sex with under age children. This latter source of pedophilia far surpasses anything the Catholic or Protestant Churches have done. The Catholic Church has made a lot of headway in correcting its pedophiles. The other groups have not done so of late. Actually it is dishonest of you to only mention the Catholic Church that has had anything to do with pediophilia. But then I don't hate the Catholic Church like some do.
76.205.117.6 (
talk)
04:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Many Christians (and denominations) are commonly considered "catholic". They fall into four groups:
I'm not happy about these "four groups"; mostly because they seem to be considered from a Roman Catholic point of view, not from a neutral point of view. "Recognized Apostolic Succession" is used to mean "recognized by the Roman Catholic Church"; "condemned by the Catholic Church" is used to mean "condemned by the Roman Catholic Church".
Can anyone suggest a more neutral phrasing? Except from a Roman Catholic point of view, I'm not sure that the groupings currently make sense. The Orthodox churches consider themselves to alone constitute a Catholic Church, which the Old Catholics do not. Not all Lutherans hold that they maintain an apostolic succession, whereas Anglicans do. 1 and 4 make sense (though I'm not sure that the characterisation of the teachings of the three saints mentioned in 1 is accurate), but 2 and 3 seem distinctly blurred when considered from anything other than a Roman Catholic point of view. TSP 12:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
They are classified this way here because this is the most common way of classifying them. This happens to agree to certain extant with a RC outlook, though not completely (or the OCC would have to be moved to Protestantism or have a group of its own). Str1977 (smile back) 12:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Since Catholic refers to a person who is part of Catholicism itself, it should be merged into there right this very second.
You are right. In Wikipedia Buddists are listed under Buddisism. By the way latter day saints should also be changed to mormonism.
I've restored "Roman" to the page. I know this is a controversial issue, and it has been extremely extensively discussed over at Talk:Roman Catholic Church. Two things seem clear, however. First, the church in communion with the Pope uses, including in official documents, "Roman Catholic Church" to mean the entire church in communion with the Pope; never, as far as anyone could establish, to mean 'the Latin Rite church'. Secondly, it is hopeless, in a discussion about different meanings of the term "Catholic Church", to call one of the bodies referred to "Catholic Church". It would be like the Ireland page saying, "The term 'Ireland' can be used to mean two different things - Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland". It presupposes the correctness of one of the views described, which is hopeless both for clarity and NPOV, and makes a sensible and neutral terminology discussion impossible. TSP 23:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Roman might be called for for clarity's sake but I would be surprise if you could provide a document with the term "Roman Catholic Church" referring to the entire Catholic Church. Str1977 (smile back) 08:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
In order to correct the ignorance that I have read on this page please let me explain something: The so called Roman Catholic Church is not a Church per se. It is a rite of the Catholic Church. There is only one Catholic Church with many different rites. The Catholic Church is called "The Catholic Church". It is improper, but not necessarily out of order, to call it the Roman Catholic Church. If anyone here has such great animosities concerning the Catholic Church they should get off this article. After all would any honest researcher go to a nazi for a description of the Jew? The honest researcher would go to someone that likes Jews to give him the information that he is looking for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.117.6 ( talk) 04:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I’m not going to give you my opinion. I’ll give you the opinion of the Catholic Church. This opinion will show you the error of your ways and thoughts. If you don’t accept your errors, that’s OK, the truth will continue to stand.
Our Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. Where there is Christ Jesus there is the Catholic Church. The Church receives from Christ the fullness of the means of salvation which Christ has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentacost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
The Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole human race.
All particular Catholic Church’s throughout the world are in communion with the Church of Rome. The Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church (shepherd). If your Church is not in communion with the Church in Rome your Church is ‘not’ Catholic. The Episcopalians are not Catholic. There are no Protestant Catholic Churches.
This article is twisting facts, ideas, and definitions. It is a lot of nonsense.
Anathasius (
talk)
01:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Bill, but what I have said is not my own opinion. It came straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, almost verbatim. You are either ignorant or maliciously lying about the Catholic Church, Vatican II, and anything else. If you are misinformed, then you should find the correct facts to back up your opinion. If you are lying, then you should be banned from anymore writing on this article.
Anathasius (
talk)
14:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I’m truly sorry if I was curt to you Bill, but you are way off base in everything that you have said. For starters, in order to be in communion with the Pope you first must be Catholic. To show that you are validly in communion, join the Catholic Church.
Bill please read paragraph 834 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It proves beyond a doubt that I am correct in saying what I did.
I am not just being casually verbal about your knowledge of the Catholic Church. You are almost totally ignorant of any knowledge of the Catholic Church if I may judge by what you have just said. You are so far off base that I think someone has purposely manipulated you for whatever reasons they had.
Anathasius (
talk)
21:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
What I have written has everything to do with this article. The vast majority of editors for this article are ignorant of Catholicism. They should in no way be writing anything about Catholicism. How could they? Anathasius ( talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
What in the world is a "reliable source"? Are you basing this encyclopedia on any perversion of facts just because some particular editor says he got his information from a "reliable source"? If this indeed is the case then Wikipedia is a joke.
Anathasius (
talk)
23:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Are you aware that Wikipedia's rule on "no original research" is being deleted by Wikipedia? Now we also have Wikipedia's "neutral point of view". I have been so neutral that I didn't even give my point of view. Ward started a namecalling edit in which he attempted to demean me and the Catholic Church. Everything he said was his own point of view. Wikipedia should not have an article called "Catholicism" because it is impossible for any of their so called editors to verify or be neutral on the subject. Editors, such as Ward, have even taken an extremely credible source, the Catholic Catechism, and called it false. Is Wikipedia attempting to show how ignorant they are? What kind of a moronic outfit is this? Anathasius ( talk) 03:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
maybe someone can help me. i read all of the new testament with the exception of the book of acts and revalations. i am not a catholic, but 1/2 of my family is. they pray the rosery, the take communion and go to confession. can someone tell me where going the act of going to confession is in the holy bible becuase i couldnt find it. and if it isnt in the bible then is it really a holy practice or something that was just made up. also, praying to mary? where is this in the holy bible? and also, where is the rank structure of the catholic church in the bible? biships? cardinals? i dont remember reading about these things either. can someone help me? Keltik31 23:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
i dont remember confession in those books telling the sinner to go tell a priest anything. and where does it say to ask mary for assistance? Keltik31 23:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
no. never heard of it. just wondering where catholics get some of their practices from. if it isnt in the bible, then it isnt legit in my book. you just cant make it up as you go. Keltik31 23:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
i suggest you kiss the sunny side of my royal irish ass. trolling? is that a personal attack? Keltik31 16:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
dont get mad at me if you cant hold up your end. Keltik31 21:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
be civil now, Irish guy. Keltik31 21:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
hey irish guy, you said that catholics believe in the bible as well as tradition. i take that what you are saying is that the things in the religion that are not in the bible like confession and praying through mary are the traditions? where do these come from and is there a biblical basis for them? Keltik31 12:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
If you have nothing to contribute or to ask about editing this article, then please take your queries somewhere else. Goodday, Str1977 (smile back) 14:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
i think i'll do what i want to do and wait for irish guy's response. thanks for your input though. Keltik31 17:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This discussion section does not appear to improve the article in any way? that is your POV. dont put your own POV in here or i'll ban you. Keltik31 22:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with improving the article, and is simply an abuse of Wikipedia server space. The discussion is over now. AnnH ♫ 22:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added a clean up tag following an attempt to read this article from top to bottom. It rambles, has poor structure contains arguable irrelevant material and needs some work. -- BozMo talk 10:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with you. I couldn't understand anything that that was trying to say. It was a bunch of absolutely nothing.
I just wanted to provide some grounds for my most recent edit here. I don't see how categories (2) and (3) substantially differ from one another, since both claim the Apostolic Succession of their bishops. The use of the adjective "recognised" is telling here. Recognised by whom? Other catholics? Opinion amongst those who claim the descriptor "Catholic" (both large-C and small-c) diverges on this point. I don't think it is NPOV to use the opinion of one or more Catholic denomination as the basis for distinguishing relative status - and 1-4 already suggests a hierarchy of legitimacy. It is fine to condition the language, but anything else implies the relative granting of legitimacy. Fishhead64 20:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Whats up!?!
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
To write an article about Catholicism can only indicate that it will be written by Catholics. This means no atheists, Protestants, Jews, Satanists or anything else. Every other religion is to keep out of it. If this requirement is not kept then the whole article will be nothing more than confusion, incorrect guesses, delusions, and verbal gymnastics that can only come from misplaced hatred of what the non-Catholic thinks the Catholic Church is. Anathasius ( talk) 01:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The only source that is credible would be one that is written by Catholics who know their religion. Who are these scholars that you are talking about? By what authority are they considered credible on the subject of Catholicism. Your edit can only be accurate by the accuracy of your references. If your references are ill founded, of course you will have chaos. By the way, Catholicism is a 2000 year old religion. It is not nor will it ever be a concept. Anathasius ( talk) 05:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest a major merge from "Catholic" & "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" to "Catholicism." (the latter is referenced from the "Christianity Template") These ought not to be merged with "Roman Catholic Church" but ought to point out that not all Catholics are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but that the Roman Catholic Church is the largest Catholic Church today. It ought to talk about the history of the words catholic and apostolic, discuss breifly the use of the words as they apply to a survey of the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation (both the Magisterial Reformation and the Radical Reformation - the former considered itself to be Catholic while the latter rejected this), and contemporary usage among modern Protestants (i.e. Neo-Lutheans and Reforming Catholics: I find the term Neo-Lutheran to be misleading, all the Reformers including Luther took seriously the charge of schism and innovation and maintained the position that they were Catholic).
It ought to thus talk about how Christians from Eastern Christianity, Western Christianity, and Protestantism (as well as non-Christian) think of the words "Catholic" and "Catholicism" in context and in a NPOV manner, rather from an exclusively Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox POV.
These three articles are essentially the same except that "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" discusses the word "Apostolic" in relation to Catholicity. "Catholicism" is rather long and and so much of the content that is rather specific to either of the afore mentioned Christian Catholic Groups ought to be moved to their own respective articles to focus the article. (Information about Roman Catholicism specifically ought to be moved under the "Roman Catholic Church" article for example.)
The "Catholic (disambiguation)" ought to remain to redirect people to the correct article.
Hodijah 15:09, 04 October 2006
I'm sure this proposal will raise a ruckus. I just don't see the point of having both articles.
Yes, I know that this has been proposed before and the claim is that there IS a difference between Roman Catholic Church and Catholicism. If you read the INTRO to this article, it sounds like there is a plausible distinction between this article and that one. However, if you read the CONTENT of this article, you will find that 75% or more of the content in this article is duplicated in the Roman Catholic Church. So again, what's the point?
-- 69.236.189.158 06:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems rather foolish to have the two separate entries, but I think we're probably better off relegating all the turf war stuff about who should call themselves 'Catholic' to this post while talking about the Catholic Church as a historical entity under the Catholic Church/Roman Catholic Church.
Given the communal nature of the Wikipedia, and in order not to have to spend half the Catholic Church article discussing who might possibly claim to be part of the Catholic Church, I vote that we keep the articles separate as a peacekeeping measure. Brendanhodge 06:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
We have greeco catolics, asirian catholics, so it's not the same.
The two articles should be merged with the appropriate redirects, while distinguishing the Roman Rite from the other Rites of the Catholic Church. JBogdan 16:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Object. This is a point that has been made before: large numbers of people outside the Roman church use the word catholicism to refer to beliefs they hold (the members of Affirming Catholicism, for example). This is a neutral encylopedia and so should record the fact. I think the article makes this clear already. Perhaps what is necessary is a separate page on Catholic doctrine on which all the repeated material can go. MAG1 20:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I also object. Not all Catholics are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Fishhead64 06:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
"Catholicism" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are clearly two different things. "isms" are descriptions of the collections of practices, and sometimes the motivations behind them, as they have influenced or are influencing action, and may vary depending on which branch or aspect of the "ism" you are talking about, and the meaning of which is often largely open to debate, whereas the Church is an "entity". No credible encyclopedia would fail to have an entry for the "Roman Catholic Church". This would really be an attempt to merge two separate topics, with the consquent loss of a substantial amount of information which could not rightly be placed in an article about the Roman Catholic Church. pat8722 14:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Merging thefollowing articles would be benificial: "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" "Catholic" and "Catholicism" Butwe aught not to merge these with "Roman Catholic Church" because there are other churches such as the Eastern Orthodox, Neo-Lutherans, and Calvinists who emphasis a "Reformed Catholicity." (The Protestant Reformers took seriously the charge of schism and inovation claiming the mideval church had left them and they were simply reforming the Catholic church. But to be sure there are anti-catholic churches. The word Protestant has come to indicate these churches almost exclusivly promting many Protestants with high church leanings to prefer designations like "Reformed" "Evangelical" and even "Reformed/Reforming Catholic.")
I object to merging "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" with "Roman Catholic Church" or "Catholicism." Although most of the material does have to do with Roman Catholicism, I think it should be re-written in a more NPOV manner and/or merged with ecumenism. Confiteordeo 19:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion is a waste of time. Why is that? If we were investigating Jews we wouldn't ask a nazi to give us his explanation. You would naturally go to someone that has a close interest with the Jews. Possibly even a loving relationship with the Jews. If you want to know what Catholicism is all about you must go to Catholic books which explain in detail what it means to be Catholic. You can start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as a religion which is Protestant that is also called Catholic. If they do they certainly are not being sincere.
76.205.117.6 (
talk)
04:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Mergimg articles would create a ton of complaints, requests to un-merge, ect... 75% may be duplicates, but much of the 25% would be lost in attempting to create continuity. Why are we even having this discussion. The Romans murdered hundreds of Catholics. As said before, a Jewish person would give their view, while a Nazi would give their own view. -- Vock ( talk) 08:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I boldly removed the sacraments section; on the basis that a) It largely contains material also contained in Catholic sacraments, and b) Churches that consider themselves Catholic do not all have the same beliefs about sacraments, and the section largely documents Roman Catholic beliefs.
It was reverted with the comment "rv: not all Christian churches believe in them all, therefore the sacraments section is needed".
I accept that it is valid and useful to mention sacraments; but is there any reason to do so in full when several articles exist already containing largely this content?
It might be useful to have a section explaining the different beliefs about sacraments of different churches calling themselves Catholic (for example, Anglican churches often only recognise baptism and eucharist as sacraments, and administer chrismation and confirmation, if both are used, separately); but this section doesn't really do that.
Thoughts? TSP 16:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Somewhere along the line, an issue has come up in the sacraments section, under Confirmation. As an Anglican, CHRSMATION can occur at Baptism, but Confirmation can ONLY be done by a young adult (or older) who is ready to confirm the choice to accept the church. I'm pretty sure that's true for Lutherans, as well. As written, it appears to say only Roman Catholics are confirmed as young adults, while Anglicans confirm potentially as infants, an absurdity. Can someone who has a better handle on the specific theology for all of the effected groups please correct this? It looks like an honest mistake, but it's a biggie. I know it's got to just be because of particularly poor word choice. Bill Ward 19:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by W.E.Ward.III ( talk • contribs).
I think that the phrase "even in infants who have committed no actual sins" should be rephrased as the word actual suggests that the doctrine of original sin is optional, and is just generally misleading. im going to substitute "who have not personally comitted and sins" but that isnt a very elegant turn of phrse. Ill try to come up with something better. -- Phil 20686 18:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe I can help you with this one. Catholics believe an infant can enter heaven, whether they are baptised or not, baptism washes away the original sin, unbaptized adults can enter Heaven, and that honestly stating their love for Our Lord will save them and grant them access to Heaven —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vock ( talk • contribs) 09:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Talk:Roman_Catholic_Church#Mass_Merging Dominick (TALK) 20:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Add reference demonstrating that the Church of England asserts apostolic succession This reference does not say that. I can't see WP:V Dominick (TALK) 18:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Eastern Orthodox Church is not recognized, mutually or otherwise, as a sui iuris Catholic Church The claims that Orthodoxy is Sui Juris are pretty well know Lima. Any expansion? Dominick (TALK) 14:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Ancient Church of the East, which has split from the last, are all more than sui iuris, and might even consider it an insult to be compared with the autonomous Churches within the the Catholic Church. But they are not acknowledged as Catholic by the Catholic Church. They do not recognize each other mutually as Catholic. Each recognizes only itself as Catholic. But I think I now understand the quite valid distinction Dominick wishes to place in the text, and I have tried to express it in my latest editing. Lima 15:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Reference to Vatican I as an instance of the Church calling herself the "Roman Catholic Church" is absurd.
What is at issue here in all of these naming debates is simple: There are qualities of a church and there are names. These are two different things. Credal and consiliar statements (credal formulae are consiliar statements) are discussions of qualities, not names.
The Catholic Church has always been called by the same name with very minor and rare exceptions. These exceptions should be stated, but Vatican I is not an example of naming.
There is not other institution by the name "Catholic Church." Every other institution which claims to be "catholic" or "Catholic" in the adjectival sense has a name. And non of them is named "The Catholic Church." There is no ambiguity.
Anglicans and others may take offense. But they cannot take the name of the Catholic Church. When they do so, they imply that the Catholic Church only began with the Reformation, which is ridiculous in the extreme. -- Vaquero100 13:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the paragraph before this. If this was just a personal opnion: "The point is not that Anglicans and others claim the catholic church came into being in the reformation, but that they have continuity with the pre-reformation catholic church and so remain part of it" then I would have no qualms but this is a statement with theological significance and thus it would be best not to manifest such a view unless it can be backed up with plenty of historical as well as theological verifiable data. No other church in the world has more history about the Christian Religion than then Roman Catholic Church (Example Document of the RCC Vatican Archives [ [1]] ). In conclusion, all statements must be made in light of verifiable data and the most accepted interpretation according to its context, and for that statement above it would be theological in context.
Thanks to whoever edited it, it brought my attention to it. ( Gimmetrow 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC))
Very well, and accurately, put.
I suggest that we merge the article Roman Catholicism with Catholicism instead of merging Catholicism with Roman Catholicism. The reason is that Roman Catholicism refers to one rite of Catholicism which is the Latin/Western rite. Catholicism, on the other hand refers to all the rites. Another reason is that there are many pseduo-Catholic groups such as the SSPX that would do well to go under an article titled "Catholicism" instead of "Roman Catholicism" as once again "Roman Catholicism", often refers to Catholicism which is in communion with the Vatican/Holy See. -- PaladinWriter 12:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A new WikiProject focussing on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion has just been initiated: WikiProject Anglicanism. Our goal is to improve and expand Anglican-reltaed articles. If anyone (Anglican or non-Anglican) is interested, read over the project page and consider signing up. Cheers! Fishhead64 06:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
At the moment Catholicism, Catholic and Catholic Church (disambiguation) seem to be doing essentially the same thing: describing the different meanings attached to the term 'Catholic' in a theological context.
Catholic Church (disambiguation) obviously sets out to do this in the form of a disambiguation page, but it doesn't do it all that well, so this page probably fulfils that role just as well as that one does (essentially, the reader either wants Roman Catholic Church, in which case they will find the link prominently at the head of the article; or they mean something more theoretical, in which they need something a bit more extensive than a simple (and very long, but still incomplete) list of churches claiming in one way or another to be 'Catholic').
Catholic and Catholicism, meanwhile, seem to cover pretty much exactly the same ground - unsurprisingly, as one is just the noun form of the other; and Wikipedia policy tells us that the adjective should be redirected to the noun.
If you don't agree that these pages should all be merged, could someone at least explain what the distinct roles of these three pages are meant to be, so that they can be rewritten to fulfil different roles, rather than the same role? TSP 21:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
In answer to your (FearÉIREANN's) edit comment:
I really can't see where it has been debated in any of the talk page archives. A few times it's been proposed by one person; another single person has disagreed; it's been dropped. There never seems to have been a debate, or any proper consensus sought. If, as you say, Catholic is meant to examine non-religious meanings, what is meant to be the content of that article? What is there that is worthy of an encyclopedia, rather than a dictionary, to say about the word "Catholic" which is not the religious meanings? What encyclopedic content is covered by "Catholic" and not by "Catholicism"? Can't we leave on the tags and see if anyone can actually explain what these two (three, indeed) separate pages are meant to be about? TSP 22:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This whole discussion strikes me as disingenuous. The noun term "Roman Catholic Church" is clearly not identical to the adjective "Catholic," which is clearly not identical to the noun "Catholicism." That there is a common grounding with respect to the meaning of the Koine Greek term "Catholic" is pretty much all that these subjects have in common. Is this somehow not obvious...? Merging is clearly not called for. -- 66.69.219.9 15:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Catholic Church (disambiguation) was created for a specific purpose. It was created as a compromise to an ongoing debate
[2]. It is a disambiguation page not an article. It is not suitable for a merge into an article. I feel that to merge this page would start the whole debate again. --
WikiCats
04:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
There has to be a disambiguation page for the term "Catholic Church". What do you propose we use for that, if not this page? --
WikiCats
05:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Your going to have to convince a lot of people for this to happen. At this point you have no support. --
WikiCats
13:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was do not merge.--
WikiCats
04:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
You may wish to take up Fishhead's suggestion and propose a merge of Catholic in to Catholicism. If that's the case, someone should put the appropriate merge notices on those pages. -- WikiCats 04:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I would support a merge of
Catholic in to
Catholicism. They are about the same subject, so there should not be two articles. --
WikiCats
11:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
There are three in agreement on this merge and no one against. The first thing to do is move all the unique content from Catholic over to Catholicism. -- WikiCats 04:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "Catholicism" and "Catholic" aught to be merged and keeping this new merged article seperate from "Roman Catholic Church" for reasons stated above, and we aught to keep the disambiguation page to help direct people to the correct article.-- 208.191.143.197 16:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that Catholicism should be used primarily to designate a reduction of Catholic belief to a system. The term is late and despite authors like De Lubac does not fully do justice to the rediscovery of the patristic heritage in the twentieth century, e.g. at Vatican II. Catholic Chuch/faith/belief should normally be used as substitutes. Catholicity also is deserving of an entry----Clive Sweeting
The external links provided fail NPOV standards. Not alone does the list exclude criticism, the list contains unambiguously supportive spin all the way through. External links, like reading lists, should provide a broad range of analyses, not promotional material for one viewpoint. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 14:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Amen. I say, get rid of them all since they all have a particular "take" on Catholicism and none are the total picture. Wikipedia is not a directory!
The subject term has been drafted to read as follows:
Catholic (from Greek καθολικός, from καθόλου, in general: κατα-, according to, in keeping with + ὅλου, neuter genitive of ὅλος, whole), from Greek katholikos, from phrase "kath' holou," from kata "about" + genitive of holos "whole"...
Some have taken the route of an interpretive translation of Catholic to be "universal," which means literally "one verse." This, again, is an interpretive and not literal translation, as "one verse" does not come close to "about whole" in the conveyance of meaning. An interlinear, direct translation is the only way to avoid the destruction of meaning...which is quite profound with respect to "about whole", which implies a touch of humility along with a profound embracement of the powerful concepts underlying the word "whole" (holy, holistic, integral, integrity, etc.) -- 66.69.219.9 15:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Rather than the anonymous (66.69.219.9) user's idea of "universal" - or rather "universe" - as meaning "one verse", surely most people will prefer the derivation in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English language:
Κατά (kata) does not mean "about" in any form of Greek - can Anonymous quote even one passage where it is used in that sense? The Greek for "about" (both in the sense of "concerning" and in that of "around") is περί (peri), as in Matthew 2:8, 3:4, 4:6, 6:28, 8:18 etc. etc.
See the online etymology dictionary entry for Catholic; there "kata" is being defined as meaning "about." In any case, I think we may be converging on violent agreement that some form of "whole" is a vastly better translation of Catholic than "universal" -- in particular because "whole" simply carries more appropriate meaning in today's vernacular, but also because the first meaningful definition of universal which you've quoted above in fact refers to "whole" as well. Clearly, "universal" (notably, BTW, an adjective...not an action-verb such as you describe above) and "universe" both miss the mark in terms of translating "Catholic." Whenever possible, a good translator will retain similar or identical phonetics of the original word.
Also notably, even the Catholic Church refers to itself as "one, holy (very clearly derived from the Greek holos, "whole")...Church" -- not a "universal" one.
There are reasons that Latin is a dead language. Latin has nothing to do with the original Scriptures, and the Church has abandoned it accordingly. -- 66.69.219.9 22:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S. "Anonymous" is a vastly more appropriate term when applied to Wikipedia profile-names, as you should be well aware; i.e., IP addresses on Wikipedia are vastly less anonymous than a profile name. -- 66.69.219.9 22:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Since the anonymous editor does not like to be referred to as "Anonymous", I shall call him "66" (only two sixes). I am glad to see that what 66 said about the meaning of κατά is not his own imagination, but due to a mistake in on online source (though 66's statement that κατά means "about" in Koine Greek does seem to be his imagination). Since TSP is absolutely right in his comment on the Catholic Talk page, I now indicate in the article the meaning given to the Greek word καθολικός in the authoritative Greek-English lexicon of Liddell and Scott. Lima 04:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the dictionary definition, not as a ploy to push certain books or types of language, but becuase I think the OED definition is fuller and makes clearer the sorts of issues discussed in the article, and in these talk pages (sometimes ad nauseam).
Bravo Lima. MAG1 20:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
And, of course, the thing about "holy" being derived from "holos" is completely of the mark - that might be the correct etymology but only concerns the English translation. In Latin it would be "Sancta", "Hagia" in Greek and "Kedosh" (or something like this) in Hebrew. Originally it means "set apart from other things for a special purpose" The name the church calls herself by is, in line with the Nicene creed, "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" - every epithet denoting a different aspect - the Catholic denoting the "Universality" as opposed being restricted to time, place, class, occupation. Str1977 (smile back) 12:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Can someone add the date of John Paul ii's statements about women Catholic priests - and addd some information on the general subject please? Jackiespeel 23:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no criticism setion, alot of ppl have bad things to say about how dumb they think catholics are. While the above poster is irrelevant, there are many known criticisms of the history and origins of Catholicism, including its strong roots in Paganism, including rituals and beliefs.
I was wondering why there didn't appear to be any mention of the many international paedophile scandals in the Catholic church and the huge amount of compensation that has been paid out in consequence. It would be dishonest to pretend that it wasn't something that most people associate with the Catholic church. Maybe I missed it as I only skim-read the article.
SteveRamone 22:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The Catholic Church is the only Church that has come out with the pedophile scandal. I have many pages of Protestant ministers that have been convicted of perversion with young children. Not only that there is a very strong interest in public school teachers all over the nation that have had sex with under age children. This latter source of pedophilia far surpasses anything the Catholic or Protestant Churches have done. The Catholic Church has made a lot of headway in correcting its pedophiles. The other groups have not done so of late. Actually it is dishonest of you to only mention the Catholic Church that has had anything to do with pediophilia. But then I don't hate the Catholic Church like some do.
76.205.117.6 (
talk)
04:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Many Christians (and denominations) are commonly considered "catholic". They fall into four groups:
I'm not happy about these "four groups"; mostly because they seem to be considered from a Roman Catholic point of view, not from a neutral point of view. "Recognized Apostolic Succession" is used to mean "recognized by the Roman Catholic Church"; "condemned by the Catholic Church" is used to mean "condemned by the Roman Catholic Church".
Can anyone suggest a more neutral phrasing? Except from a Roman Catholic point of view, I'm not sure that the groupings currently make sense. The Orthodox churches consider themselves to alone constitute a Catholic Church, which the Old Catholics do not. Not all Lutherans hold that they maintain an apostolic succession, whereas Anglicans do. 1 and 4 make sense (though I'm not sure that the characterisation of the teachings of the three saints mentioned in 1 is accurate), but 2 and 3 seem distinctly blurred when considered from anything other than a Roman Catholic point of view. TSP 12:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
They are classified this way here because this is the most common way of classifying them. This happens to agree to certain extant with a RC outlook, though not completely (or the OCC would have to be moved to Protestantism or have a group of its own). Str1977 (smile back) 12:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Since Catholic refers to a person who is part of Catholicism itself, it should be merged into there right this very second.
You are right. In Wikipedia Buddists are listed under Buddisism. By the way latter day saints should also be changed to mormonism.
I've restored "Roman" to the page. I know this is a controversial issue, and it has been extremely extensively discussed over at Talk:Roman Catholic Church. Two things seem clear, however. First, the church in communion with the Pope uses, including in official documents, "Roman Catholic Church" to mean the entire church in communion with the Pope; never, as far as anyone could establish, to mean 'the Latin Rite church'. Secondly, it is hopeless, in a discussion about different meanings of the term "Catholic Church", to call one of the bodies referred to "Catholic Church". It would be like the Ireland page saying, "The term 'Ireland' can be used to mean two different things - Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland". It presupposes the correctness of one of the views described, which is hopeless both for clarity and NPOV, and makes a sensible and neutral terminology discussion impossible. TSP 23:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Roman might be called for for clarity's sake but I would be surprise if you could provide a document with the term "Roman Catholic Church" referring to the entire Catholic Church. Str1977 (smile back) 08:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
In order to correct the ignorance that I have read on this page please let me explain something: The so called Roman Catholic Church is not a Church per se. It is a rite of the Catholic Church. There is only one Catholic Church with many different rites. The Catholic Church is called "The Catholic Church". It is improper, but not necessarily out of order, to call it the Roman Catholic Church. If anyone here has such great animosities concerning the Catholic Church they should get off this article. After all would any honest researcher go to a nazi for a description of the Jew? The honest researcher would go to someone that likes Jews to give him the information that he is looking for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.117.6 ( talk) 04:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I’m not going to give you my opinion. I’ll give you the opinion of the Catholic Church. This opinion will show you the error of your ways and thoughts. If you don’t accept your errors, that’s OK, the truth will continue to stand.
Our Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. Where there is Christ Jesus there is the Catholic Church. The Church receives from Christ the fullness of the means of salvation which Christ has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentacost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
The Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole human race.
All particular Catholic Church’s throughout the world are in communion with the Church of Rome. The Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church (shepherd). If your Church is not in communion with the Church in Rome your Church is ‘not’ Catholic. The Episcopalians are not Catholic. There are no Protestant Catholic Churches.
This article is twisting facts, ideas, and definitions. It is a lot of nonsense.
Anathasius (
talk)
01:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Bill, but what I have said is not my own opinion. It came straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, almost verbatim. You are either ignorant or maliciously lying about the Catholic Church, Vatican II, and anything else. If you are misinformed, then you should find the correct facts to back up your opinion. If you are lying, then you should be banned from anymore writing on this article.
Anathasius (
talk)
14:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I’m truly sorry if I was curt to you Bill, but you are way off base in everything that you have said. For starters, in order to be in communion with the Pope you first must be Catholic. To show that you are validly in communion, join the Catholic Church.
Bill please read paragraph 834 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It proves beyond a doubt that I am correct in saying what I did.
I am not just being casually verbal about your knowledge of the Catholic Church. You are almost totally ignorant of any knowledge of the Catholic Church if I may judge by what you have just said. You are so far off base that I think someone has purposely manipulated you for whatever reasons they had.
Anathasius (
talk)
21:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
What I have written has everything to do with this article. The vast majority of editors for this article are ignorant of Catholicism. They should in no way be writing anything about Catholicism. How could they? Anathasius ( talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
What in the world is a "reliable source"? Are you basing this encyclopedia on any perversion of facts just because some particular editor says he got his information from a "reliable source"? If this indeed is the case then Wikipedia is a joke.
Anathasius (
talk)
23:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Are you aware that Wikipedia's rule on "no original research" is being deleted by Wikipedia? Now we also have Wikipedia's "neutral point of view". I have been so neutral that I didn't even give my point of view. Ward started a namecalling edit in which he attempted to demean me and the Catholic Church. Everything he said was his own point of view. Wikipedia should not have an article called "Catholicism" because it is impossible for any of their so called editors to verify or be neutral on the subject. Editors, such as Ward, have even taken an extremely credible source, the Catholic Catechism, and called it false. Is Wikipedia attempting to show how ignorant they are? What kind of a moronic outfit is this? Anathasius ( talk) 03:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
maybe someone can help me. i read all of the new testament with the exception of the book of acts and revalations. i am not a catholic, but 1/2 of my family is. they pray the rosery, the take communion and go to confession. can someone tell me where going the act of going to confession is in the holy bible becuase i couldnt find it. and if it isnt in the bible then is it really a holy practice or something that was just made up. also, praying to mary? where is this in the holy bible? and also, where is the rank structure of the catholic church in the bible? biships? cardinals? i dont remember reading about these things either. can someone help me? Keltik31 23:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
i dont remember confession in those books telling the sinner to go tell a priest anything. and where does it say to ask mary for assistance? Keltik31 23:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
no. never heard of it. just wondering where catholics get some of their practices from. if it isnt in the bible, then it isnt legit in my book. you just cant make it up as you go. Keltik31 23:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
i suggest you kiss the sunny side of my royal irish ass. trolling? is that a personal attack? Keltik31 16:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
dont get mad at me if you cant hold up your end. Keltik31 21:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
be civil now, Irish guy. Keltik31 21:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
hey irish guy, you said that catholics believe in the bible as well as tradition. i take that what you are saying is that the things in the religion that are not in the bible like confession and praying through mary are the traditions? where do these come from and is there a biblical basis for them? Keltik31 12:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
If you have nothing to contribute or to ask about editing this article, then please take your queries somewhere else. Goodday, Str1977 (smile back) 14:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
i think i'll do what i want to do and wait for irish guy's response. thanks for your input though. Keltik31 17:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This discussion section does not appear to improve the article in any way? that is your POV. dont put your own POV in here or i'll ban you. Keltik31 22:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with improving the article, and is simply an abuse of Wikipedia server space. The discussion is over now. AnnH ♫ 22:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added a clean up tag following an attempt to read this article from top to bottom. It rambles, has poor structure contains arguable irrelevant material and needs some work. -- BozMo talk 10:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with you. I couldn't understand anything that that was trying to say. It was a bunch of absolutely nothing.
I just wanted to provide some grounds for my most recent edit here. I don't see how categories (2) and (3) substantially differ from one another, since both claim the Apostolic Succession of their bishops. The use of the adjective "recognised" is telling here. Recognised by whom? Other catholics? Opinion amongst those who claim the descriptor "Catholic" (both large-C and small-c) diverges on this point. I don't think it is NPOV to use the opinion of one or more Catholic denomination as the basis for distinguishing relative status - and 1-4 already suggests a hierarchy of legitimacy. It is fine to condition the language, but anything else implies the relative granting of legitimacy. Fishhead64 20:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Whats up!?!