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I have removed and replaced the following POV material from the opening paragraphs:
The "Catholic Church" was Latin and Roman well before the Protestant Reformation; it has been so at least since the [[Great Schism]]. The development of the pretensions of the Papacy is a complicated historical topic, but for a good part of the history of Christianity, Rome was a backwater, in a devastated and depressed area. It was only after the decline of Byzantium that the see of Rome was able to assert itself. In any case, omission of Roman is inherently POV, as this paragraph makes clear, and offensive to those Christians, Angl icans, Orthodox, and others, who
are not Roman Catholics, but feel a part of the catholic Church. This article is about Roman Catholicism. It should be moved to Roman Catholicism, which would make this moot. What defines Roman Catholicism, or "Catholicism" according to Roman Catholics, is acceptance of the claims of the Bishop of Rome. It is therefore right to call Roman Catholics Roman Catholic, and misleading or wrong to omit the Roman. -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:15, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This article is most definitely not about Roman Catholicism. It is a about Catholicism. More needs to be added about Anglo-Catholicism and others who also define themselves as Catholic but not Roman Catholic. Any move to Roman Catholicism would make no sense because it would require the removal or sections that are not about Roman Catholicism and about explaining the context of different strands of Catholicism. But as Roman Catholicism is by far the biggest strand of those who describe themselves as Catholic, and is what the vast majority of people of all religions and none think of when they hear the word catholic, it is quite natural that it would have by far the largest segment devoted to it. FearÉIREANN 05:04, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
As the writer of the above-quoted paragraph, I fail to see its POV-ness. Thank you for adding the citation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, IHCOYC, but I suggest you go a little further. Search the CCC (and earlier catechisms for that matter) for the term "Roman Catho lic" - it does not appear in the Catechism. There are references to the "Roman Church", the Roman Rite (which is what many Catholics mean by Roman Catholic, by the way), the Roman Catechism, etc., but not once does the Catechism acknowledge something called the Roman Catholic Church. The correct name is the Catholic Church. I intend to add an article about the history of the incorrect term. Harris7 22:31, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It is wrong to say that Catholic is the name only used by RCs. Most people across all religions use that term for RC. FearÉIREANN 18:37, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think that it is appropriate to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as such, when what is meant is that body of believers who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It's a helpful term for "the rest of us", even if it's not the official designation. Similarly, I think "Eastern Orthodoxy" is an acceptable term for the "Eastern Orthodox Church", even though I think you would be hard pressed to find any official church document that mentions such an entity by either name. It's a useful term to refer to the collection of Orthodox Christian churches that remain in communion with each other; they aren't only in the East any more, and also confess faith in "one holy catholic and apostolic church" and so in that sense also consider themselves catholic. No insult should be intended or perceived in either case. There are also a number of Protestant denominations with similar all-encompassing names, like the "Church of Christ", "Church of God", "Disciples of Christ", "Christian Church", etc. Every Christian church considers itself to be all of the things mentioned in these names, so some kind of qualifier or extra designation becomes useful when talking about them, just for the sake of clear communication if nothing else. Wesley 04:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I suspect that there is unfortunate ambiguity in the term Roman Catholicism, because it is most generally used as a synonym of Catholicism, but it also may mean the Roman rite in particular. Perhaps a convention would be best, such as:
- "Roman Catholic" for all of Catholicism (under the Pope) - "Roman Rite" if discussing only the Roman rite (not the Eastern Rite of Catholicism), and by extension, "Roman Rite Catholics" if discussing the people under Roman Rite. For example, Roman Rite priests may not be wed (unless they have converted from another rite or from Eastern Orthodoxy).
or of course the first term could be "Catholicism" for all of Catholicism; whatever you all think is best.
"It is organised in national hierarchies with diocesan bishops subject to archbishops." -- Is this true ? I thought in theory bishops were under the Pope.
Does this phrase —
— falsely imply too much about the basis of this position, or that it is the position of an exclusive sector of the Roman Cathoic church, rather than "papal", "mainstream", "official", "biblical", "established", "magisterial", "orthodox", etc. (all of which are at least as true concerning this position, as "traditionalist"? Mkmcconn 07:20, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I know this has probably been previously discussed, but I very strongly recommend that this article be restricted to discussion of Catholicism qua Apostolic Succession and the concept of a universal church, and that the discussion of the Catholic Churches -- i.e., the Roman and Eastern Churches in communion with the Roman Pontiff -- be moved to a separate article (probably Catholic Church) with a disambiguation header linking to this article. I make this proposal for two reasons: (1.) the Catholic Church is a large and complicated organism, and really ought to have its own article (as is the case in most encyclopedias); and (2.) only the doctrines and beliefs of the Catholic Church regarding Apostolic Succession and the nature of the Universal Church are relevant to discussion of Catholicism in those terms. The rest of the dogmas, hierarchies, and so forth of the Catholic Church are irrelevant to a discussion of Catholicism as participation in the Apostolic Succession and being part of a universal church. Publius 00:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Millions of Methodists consider themselves Catholic, as the Apostles' Creed is recited each Sunday: "I believe...in the holy catholic church..." These Christians may respect the Pope, but do not give allegiance to him, and for whom apostolic succession is moot. The page, as it is now written, excludes these Christians, and is therefore POV. "Catholic" in this sense includes all who are truly followers of Christ, whether Roman Catholic, or Methodist, or whatever group. In this light the first two paragraphs need a rewrite. For the time being, I'll not attempt it but "wait-and-see." (A teenager is apt to say "forgiveness is easier to get than permission" but a more mature person would say "fools rush in...." ;o) Pollinator 18:16, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A lot of attention is given to the child abuse scandals. There is a separate page about this referenced in this page also so why not move it all there and keep the reference. The Catholic Church is not defined by this issue any more than it is by Vatican II which is hardly given enough focus or the dissident branches of the Catholic Church and the rebel Popes, which gets hardly any attention. This article is verging on being a little unfriendly. Neutrality is what is required by Wikipedia. I think this all needs to be slit into Catholic Church History, Catholic Heresy, Keep your children away from Papists Psb777 14:43, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion in the discussion above, so I'm going to try to give a concise summary of two important distinctions that need to be clear both in discussion here and in the article:
I've tried to find a site that lists all the Catholic Churches (sources said there are about 22 of them,) which Rite each of them belongs to, date at which they entered communion with the Holy See, etc. but I can't seem to find one. That'd be good information, and we should have it, if not necessarilly in this article. Anybody got a source? Isomorphic 05:29, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wait, here we go: this appears to be a good presentation. I haven't looked over the whole thing, but the introduction gives the basic history of the Catholic Eastern Churches. Isomorphic 05:37, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
OK, I took the plunge and spun off Roman Catholic Church. I think I got the bulk of the information moved. Cleanup is still required, but with the team we have buzzing on these topics right now, that should go quickly, I hope. Snowspinner 14:20, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Suggested revision for the deleted paragraph (is this not accurate and neutral?:
Among all the entries for various sects (we dare not used the word!) Wikipedia makes the childlike confusion of Religion and Church. I set one at the head of this article. "I belong to the such-and-so religion" the child confides naively. Aparently we're all rather naive in this area. A disamb is needed for Church, Rite, Communion, Religion]] etc etc Wetman 14:39, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Re: Intro. I think that the Roman Catholic Church, being a specific institution, is not studied in the same way as the general concepts of monarchy or capitalism. "Churches" are studied in the same way as monarchy and capitalism, but the Romman Catholic Church itself is going to be studied in the same way as specific institutions - not as general categories of institutions. Snowspinner 14:49, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wetman, Snowspinner, cut it out - I'm trying to do reorganization and clarification, and I keep getting edit conflicts because of your dispute. After this article and related articles are cleaned up and focused, we shouldn't need a message like that anyway, so quit arguing about exactly how it should read. Isomorphic 14:58, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have changed the redirect at Roman Catholicism from this article to Roman Catholic Church. If it's Roman it probably belongs there, and a brief list of all that links there suggests that they should be going there. Smerdis of Tlön 15:32, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
In all honesty this page is still a mess. There is a problem of competing claims for the right to the term "Catholic Church", both of whom are substantially groups (say hundreds of millions of people) who think they are entitled to it. Here, the first paragraph sets a definition which is violated by the third.
Isn't the solution a disambiguitation page (or whatever they are called): there are two uses of the phrase "Catholicism"; "Catholicism is either (1) an alternative name for Roman Catholicism or (2) refers to churches which may a claim to be Catholic etc etc BozMo (talk)
This article is an utter mess. Is it about "Catholic" churches in general or the followers of the Pope of Rome? I'll come back in a week or so to see what the answer is, and if there is no answer, I'll presume that it's supposed to be the former and alter the article accordingly. Dogface 21:08, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
The POV (hardcore pro-Roman Catholic) vandal who refuses to get a Wikipedia account is at it again. He has turned it back into a page that presumes that Roman Catholics are the only Catholics in the entire world. I have reversed his extreme POV reversion. Dogface 14:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Be kind, please, don't call names. I don't think your edits are reliable. There are too many changes, too many attempts to try to make the Roman Catholic Church appear silly or incorrect. It will be too much work to go over all your edits and correct all the problems. I was just doing people a favor to revert to 14 May; it's closer to a balanced portrait. I don't presume that Roman Catholics are the only Catholics. The Roman Catholic Church does not presume that, either. 207.192.130.197 20:11, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
One other thought: In reverting this page I am not implying or proposing that it is a 'good page'. I just don't have confidence in the many things you've done to it. I do not consider, in other words, that the revision of 14 May is somehow a must-save version. 207.192.130.197 20:29, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I have had a chance to more closely examine the difference between the versions of 14 May and the one user Dogface has provided, and I am disappointed to say that I perceive a number of problems which warrant notice:
I agree that the file about Catholicism needs more organization and such, and perhaps I'll put my shoulder to the wheel, but I did want to share my observations, and request that user Dogface take greater care in his work.
I have had a look at the previous edits of user Dogface to this entry, and I find more examples of the removal of information.
I have offered improved definitions for this entry, and have re-organized it in places. I kept everything that was not made superfluous by the definitional section. I restored a point or two that appear to have been 'misplaced' over time, and that seem reasonable to me. 207.192.130.197 04:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Would you guys settle down? I havn't seen any vandalism here recently. What I have seen is an anon being bold. I reccomend you create an account, its easier tointeract w. Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 04:39, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thank you; I think I will be "Trc" from now on.
I would like to propose a further point. "Roman Catholic Church" is a very specific term. It is really that the "Catholic Church" encompasses the Roman Church and several others. I have arranged the pages now so that RCC content is now on CC, rather than the other way around. It really makes more sense. I also put the criticisms of the CC into a separate file, as that seemed logical. See what you think. Forgot: Trc 06:17, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. I want to talk more about the overall organization of the relevant files here. Snowspinner didn't like what I just did; let me try to explain it.
Up to now, it has worked like this:
The way it should work is:
What do you think? The key point is: The best understanding is that there is a "Catholic Church" which subsumes the churches in communion. That there are other Catholic churches is an argument for, not against, having "Catholic_Church" be the primary landing point. Trc 06:32, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, okay that wasn't very popular. Understand I meant no harm. I understand the "Catholic Church" to subsume the "Roman Church" and several others; it seems to me that the term "Catholic Church" ought to be the primary landing point. Do you agree in theory? Trc 06:51, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I suggest this:
and no harm done, your new, and you point out an undeveloped area. Sam [ Spade] 06:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Your suggestion is more sensible than what currently exists.
Incidentally it may be just as well to keep "catholic" a separate word, as they are in the dictionary. The word "catholic" gets enough use outside of the one specific context that it is reasonable for it to have a separate entry. Trc 06:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
The trouble is that while roman catholics prefer to be the considered the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, so do all the other catholics. And while 95%+ of the time somebody says "catholic" they mean roman catholic, that can be seen as technically incorrect or unfair by an ancient catholic, or even by a protestant, etc.... Finially, this is problematic because "Roman" is often ment as an insult by detractors, and while it seems to be at least largely accepted by Roman catholics, they rarely self identify as "Roman" catholic. I'm not 100% sure you (Trc) wern't right because of this last, but until we have a better name for them ("Roman" Catholics) which doesn't necesarilly include all the other non-roman catholics, this is the best way to leave things which I can think of. Sam [ Spade] 07:52, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for all your help today, Sam Spade. To follow up on it, I think what I was getting at was that "Catholic Church" is a larger category than "Roman Catholic Church", and that "Roman Catholic Church" is in some sense a misnomer that is common but inaccurate. An encyclopedia ought to place things according to their true nature, and use redirects or shorter explanatory entries to clean up after popular misunderstandings. Anyway, the Eastern Rite Catholics are subject to the Pope. That's what I mean: "Catholic Church" can refer to everything under the Pope, including and through the Roman Church. The churches sui iuris are part of his authority. The purpose of this is not to avoid offense, but to seek accuracy. In a way the Catholicism page already suggests the issue, in the section that states that "[t]he Catholic Church is a federation of 24 self-governing (sui iuris) churches...." In other words, there's a thing called the "Catholic Church". Oh well, through collaborative writing it will gradually improve. Trc | [ msg] 09:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
In this entry, it may be worth considering having the rites section link to existing pages, and making sure that the best of each information set is preserved. An entry exists for Eastern Rite and for Latin Rite, yet each is listed out here as well. Is it worth having them in both places? Trc | [ msg] 09:38, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Here is an argument for having a separate entry "Catholic Church." Almost all Christian sects consider themselves catholic: Lutherans, Orthodox churches (both Eastern and Oriental), The Assyrian Church of the East, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. They all also consider themselves to be a part of the catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Christ or the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. However, none of them consider themselves to be a part of the Catholic Church, i.e. the legal entity consisting of 24 churches in communion with each other and led by the Pope. In the same vein, members of the Catholic Church consider themselves to be orthodox, but they obviously are not a part of the Orthodox Church and do not consider themselves to be. Catholic Christians in England, since they are English, technically are a part of the church of England (i.e. the body of all English Christians), but they vehemently deny being a part of the Church of England or the Anglican Communion.
If you use the argument that having an entry for Catholic Church deal solely with the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, and Oriental Catholic Churches would cause some people to be offended, then you're unfortunately going to have to remove entries for Orthodox Church and Church of England, since these terms are as cut and dry as Catholic Church. This of course would be stupid. The bottom line is that the terms anglican, orthodox, and catholic apply to many churches. The terms Anglican Church, Orthodox Church, and Catholic Church apply to very specific communions of churches. Thus, there should be an entry catholic which deals with various uses of the term catholic, catholicism which deals with various uses of that term with a link to Catholic Church, which deals with the specific communion of churches.
Some have objected that the communion of 24 churches should be placed under Roman Catholic Church. This is incorrect. The Roman Catholic Church is the church with Cardinals, the church that celebrates the Mass, the church that requires celibacy for priests and bishops, and the church in which bishops are appointed by the Pope. That does not apply to the 23 other churches. The Maronite Catholic Church, the Syrian Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, and the other churches in the communion neither celebrate the Mass nor do they have Cardinals, nor are their priests required to be celebate, nor does the Pope appoint their bishops or patriarch (their bishops and their patriarch are elected by the other bishops in their church). They also are very opposed to being called Roman Catholic, since they are technically Maronite Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholic as the case may be. The point is that the Roman Catholic Church is only a section of the Catholic Church communion.
Regarding the sedevacantist churches, keep in mind that they claim to be the true Roman Catholic Church, not necessarily the true Catholic Church. The entry sedevacantism could be linked to at the beginning of Catholic Church, and it should definitely be linked to at the beginning of Roman Catholic Church. This solves the problem of other churches claiming to be other churches.
I think this takes care of all the ambiguities and eliminates all the confusion. Under this plan, all the churches which claim to be catholic get their say, all the churches which claim to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or the Church of Christ get their say, all the churches claiming to be a part of the Catholic Church communion get their say ((aside from BozMo: except those not accepted as part of that communion by Rome)), and all the churches which claim to be the Roman Catholic Church get their say. Let me know if you have comments. Pmadrid 15:21, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
+++ The foregoing comments are astute and factual. I encourage such a project. Trc | [ msg] 15:31, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article is still very POV and confused.
I think describing the official doctrinal position of Anglican Church as "some elements of Anglicanism" is rather silly as is the confusion between "high and low" church (which is about style of worship) and Evangelical versus Anglo-Catholic which is about belief. It is also very sad that we open quoting other dictionaries whereas as they seem to be there for dispute resolution they should be in the discussion pages.
Also the above comments on "Catholic Church" in the discussion pages perhaps qualify as official Roman doctrine but there are 60 million practicing Anglicans just as an example who belong to a church which officially declares itself to be part of the "Catholic Church", and who are used to declaring their belief in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" generally all in capital letter every Sunday without refering to the Pope and however unpalatable that is to some Roman Catholics who perhaps would like to own the word "Christian" aswell (wouldn't we all) it is widely recognised that catholic churches with apostolic succession falling on the Catholic side of the great schism are part of the "Catholic Church" rather than it being ones in communion with the Roman Church. I am just depressed that people are so partisan and don't even try to be correct to understand how anyone outside Romanism uses words. Okay, I know, there are only 60 million members of the Anglican communion against a billion RCs but that's partly counting and in any case tens of millions is enough aside other Catholics-- BozMo |talk 16:04, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree in spirit, in several ways. It pained me as well to open with a dictionary quote but the opening prior to that one was just a horrid mish-mash of half-steps and conflicted misery. Your comments about "Catholic Church" bring up an important point: At this time on Wikipedia the world's largest organized religion is not cogently described anywhere. This is partly why there are such confusions on the various pages that relate to it. No, the CC does not wish to own the word "Christian", as it describes Protestants with that term. But your reply to User:Pmadrid failed to address his point, viz. that none of the groups using the word "Catholic" in their title have any wish to be in communion with the Roman Church, which is one of the Catholic particular churches in the Catholic Church. There is a clear structural entity which does not yet have clear exposition on the server. Trc | [ msg] 06:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I guess the question to ask here is what do you call the union of the Roman Catholic Church, Maronite Catholic Church, Syrian Catholic Church, and others in that union? It can't just be 'Roman Catholic Church' because Roman does not apply to all of the churches. 'Papal Communion', might work, but it would accidently include sedevacantism in the communion, which is incorrect for both sides. Sedevacantists claim that John Paul II is illegitimate, and John Paul II claims that he is legitimate, but both sides accept a concept of papacy without being in communion with each other.
There needs to be an article encompassing the communion whose leader is John Paul II and his successors. It's unfortunately cumbersome to refer to this communion as anything but Catholic given modern parlance. Making the church be called in this encyclopedia "The Church Lead by Pope John Paul II" would be equivalent to asking Anglicans to refer to themselves as the "Church Whose Leader is the Archbishop of Cantebury" and asking the Eastern Orthodox Church to call itself the "Union of Autocephalous Churches Centering Around Constantinople." As I said before, Catholics assert their orthodoxy and English Catholics assert their membership in the church in England. So, why aren't we changing those names? Simple: they are the commonly used ones. We should follow naming conventions and keep this as simple as possible.
Now, let's look at some possibilities. Using 'Roman' to describe the entire communion has to be out. 'Roman Communion' and 'Roman Catholic Communion,' by insinuating this entire communion is Roman, is as equally insulting to Maronite Catholics as I bet insinuating that sedevacantists are not Catholic. 'Papal' is unfortunately too general. So, what do we call this thing? If we can just figure out a proper descriptor for this group of churches which isn't overly cumbersome and which a normal person would look up in an encyclopedia to find out about, we can get to writing good articles on the concept and belief system. Going off of the terms Eastern Orthodox Church and Anglican Communion, here are a few options I would like to offer:
Pmadrid 09:55, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It hink a member of an orthadox church, some of whom claim to trace their ancestry back to the time of Paul, would dispute that Catholicism is the oldest branch. Catholicism and Orthodox are surely the same age, wince they were origianlly one organisation. DJ Clayworth 18:02, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The "Evil Empire" section by User:195.93.34.9 does not belong in this article, or in Wikipedia. It is nothing but slander and vituperation, and the weak qualifier "so goes the theory" does not excuse it (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms). -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:24, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
...I have submitted a more rounded version, "Criticisms of Catholicism". Nothing is asserted by the entry itself. It is now aundantly clear that "certain groups have suggested that..." If anybody wants to include the Catholic "answer" to each point as a counter-point, feel free. Bigotry for its own sake was never the intention. I merely wanted to balance a slightly biased article where only the positive sides to a religion have been touched upon.
If I decide to use this website on a long-term basis, I will create a 'proper' account. You say that some of the criticisms are accademically discredited, but they are opinions still held by many people. It is made obvious that they are just opinions - it is never claimed that any of them are right or wrong. Some of the POV stuff, especially the Arab invasion material, was added by another user although I've edited slightly (check the article history in detail).
I suggest editing and refining (or even re-writing) rather than deleting, otherwise I can just keep posting it back. Adding a Catholicism-related section to an article about Catholicism is not vandalism, but deleting an entire section might be.
Regardless of what some users may think, I believe that helping to put the subject "Catholicism" in a more relevant context (ie the world we live in, and the opinions of those in that world about the subject) can only be a good thing. If somebody wants to write something about the relative psychological benefits of the religion or whatever, this would be good too. Without such points, the information is neutral, yes, but without direct relevance to anything in particular. It is like writing an article on Nazism and forgetting to point out that many people thought/think Nazism was a bad idea. I may lack the writing skill, but I feel strongly that these kind of points are needed - yes, in THIS article.
Antaes, you come off sounding like a raving fanatic.
Was your dad a Catholic priest or something?
Sorry dude, but I can see the blood vessles bursting in your eyes making pretty red star-bursts as you bash the keys in self-righteous anger.
Relax and get a life.
You ARE vandalizing the page by deleting relevant material,
and a list of widespread opinions on a subject is obviously relevant to that subject.
Do you go to the Nazism article and delete all references to groups who had the audacity to question or challenge Hitler with their opinions?
Your moronic EvilEmpirePedia joke doesn't make you right.. -- ClarityMS07 02:00, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That was me, User:195.93.34.9 (although the IP seems to jump all over the place). Throwing accusations at other users or friends of mine just makes you look daft. If you want to ban or block anybody, then I'm the one who did that out of frustration (and because I have a childish sense of humour). However, about 30 kids use this internet connection, so you'd be banning a lot of ppl if they ever wanted to use this site.
'Everyone' will merely infer that you have little do do but nitpick every little sentence for semantic errors and such, taking everything literally and getting yourself very stressed.
Can't really comment, but you do come across as a walking time-bomb. I hope you don't do anything silly and get yourself on the TV news.
Actually, yes. I, for one, do. If presented in the right way, they would be fine. Knowing that about contraversal opions that many people hold can be an eye-opener, in that case about Jewish banking cartels.
From what I can tell, three or four different users have re-posted that section. They are MY opinions (I started that whole 'Evil Empire' thread at the begining), but ClarityMS probably doesn't if he says not. You seriously need to go back and look at the article history in detail. You seem confused (this is an 'opinion').
"I'm right, I'm right, I'm right" seems more what you are doing than anyone else. The Roman Catholic Church is central to Catholicism, as you well know. If the Church institution died, the whole religion would probably cease to exist in one or two years. The Faith is dying worldwide even with the Church doing its 'evil empire' stuff. Whatever my ideas are, though, the Roman Catholic church and Catholicism as a whole go hand in hand. Hmm, I wonder if the Pope is a Catholic.
You are saying "they are not" without any valid explanation, and others have said "they are too!" Since the relevance and extent of these ideas are obvious, that's all that needs to be said. It would be like one of use trying to "prove" the sun is hot to somebody who keeps repeating, "no it's not, heat is relative" It comes down to wording and your particular stance I suppose, if you refuse to see the obvious relevance.
Well, that was me vandalising the page. You can't claim everybody who disagrees with you are guilty of the same act. In fact, I think you must be willfully, knowingly, throwing those fallicious accusations. I did it, but then I am a childish imp. I admit it. Freely. Bite me.
They are on the correct article, but you refuse to accept it. Whay can a guy do?
ClarityMS seems to have integrity. Well, he may have. The point is, you have no real grounds for attacking him. It was I do deleted the various comments and twisted your snide remarks into self-mockery. Ban me if you wish. I can just go to an internet cafe or use a friends computer, while everyone else would suffer from my actions.
Again, you are (willfully?) confusing two users. You seem intelligent, so perhaps you are doing so with full knowledge of your 'mistake'. If so, what does that say about YOUR integrity?
See above, above, above...
It's already been answered. Can you not read?
Please. Spare us. How can you post the above with a straight face? user ClarityMS07 did not vandalize the talk page. Is this a deliberate attempt at misinformation. If you, you overlook the fact that anybody can read the page history. Jeeez.
You are twisting things. Yes they should be aware of these opinions if they came to the page wanting a lot of information and a lot of different perspectives on the subject. Which they would be.
Ideas that millions of people hold about the RCC is not relevant to Catholicism? Wha-? Come on. You can do better than that. No matter how clever you phrase the "it's not relevant" statement, it clearly is, and everybody can see that it is.
Again, you have yet to convincingly establish that it is in the wrong article. It is in exactly the right article.
See above.
The entity and the belief system are hand and glove. If you can't see any connection, I worry for your highly trained mind.
I for one have decided to disagree that there should be a seperate section advocating catholicism. However, for the sake of consistency, Id be willing (if not happy) to leave it there.
Hmmmmmm...
Heil to that.
From what I can see, he started with his first repost. I use my own limited brain to do sneaky and subversive things like frightening owls and corrupting data on LANs. Or something.
This edit by -
195.93.32.8 01:14, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wow, two users who are close friends, using computers on a network sitting on desks next to each other, actually discussing this nutty guy Antaues and his catholicism rants... and they BOTH post on Catholicism in a short period of time!?!?! Wow, that is totally unbelievable and impossible!!! Surely!!!! (I'd better point out that I'm being sarcastic, or you'll take this to be a reinforcement of your fallicious statements. - 195.93.32.8 03:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That is funny. The person you are refering to has been studying computer science for two years, and he doesn't know anything about IP addresses? Do you even know what IP stands for? Why do you continually make these wild assumptions when there is obviously no way you could know about a person on the other end of an internet connection?
"You're just a bunch of morons"? No, only one springs immediately to mind. - 195.93.32.8 03:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Huh? You are getting your knickers in a twist, and you you are so off the mark it is nearly beyond belief.
Have I said that these comments weren't me or tried to deny them?
There you go again. Assuming things when you have no information to base those assumptions upon. You are not physically here. For all you know, there could be ten of us sitting around this monitor right now. In fact, there are four people in here - one of whom is somebody you having been calling a "disturbed loser", although I'm not sure which of us is supposed to accept the insult.
lol@Antaeus for leaping to totally false conclusions *yet* again. You can yell at ClarityMS07 all you want, I don't care one bit, but you are completely wrong. He is not me. I'll yell at him with you if it makes you happy. There are two, (possibly three) users using this internet connection to look at this site from this building. There are about 30 other ppl who could have accessed the site, but this is a matter of speculation. Despite this, I've never tried to deny posting anything. I've actually said loud and clear: I TAMPERED WITH THE TALK PAGE as a one off. And: I CREATED THE EVIL EMPIRE THREAD. How is that trying to deny anything? Did you actually read my comments? Your loopy comments are beyond astounding.
No, deleting my user information was minor vandalism, but I already dropped the issue.
Neither of us care. Believe what you wish to believe. Hold whatever delusions you want to hold.
Listen very carefully. I'll type this really slowly so that you can understand:
195.93.32.8 = 195.93.32.8 (probably always the same user (as far as I know))
ClarityMS07 = ClarityMS07 (somebody completely different)
(me)
Get it? Do you understand? Is dribble forming on your chin as you try to work it out in your head?
Dear oh dear. I thought I'd seen it all.
- 195.93.32.8 03:09, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That's right, bail out and continue to pretend that it is impossible for two people to access a site from one computer ("oh, it's cuz of... erm, 'technical reasons'", you mutter under your breath). Continue to pretend to somehow 'know' that two indviduals are actually one, despite the fact that you've never stepped foot in this place or met any of us. This is wise.
I for one am getting sick and tired of this article. Trying to rv valid sections of the article while these fascistic book-burning types continually resort to prissy censorship while trying to claim the moral high-ground... is just plain boring. Maybe someone else will take up the fight. If so, maybe I'll return to help at some point.
Before I go, a warning: I advise caution when reading Cardinal Feldspar's insidious propaganda (it's sure to come in bucket-loads after this), and that of his bible-wielding friends. Also watch out for his subtle tampering with the talk page. So desperate is he to 'prove' the validity of his stance that he's likely to write several novel-length critiques of some edited version of everything I am saying here. For now, his fantacial censorship crusade has worked (hurrah for you). However, you can always re-post the deleted material by viewing the article history. Watch out for the poor guy's blood pressure though.
Peace.
I have changed one of the subject headings from the wholly inaccurate "Criticisms of Catholicism" to the correct "Criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church". Anyone who wishes to revert it back is invited to list the logic for doing so here on the talk page. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:04, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
I have removed and replaced the following POV material from the opening paragraphs:
The "Catholic Church" was Latin and Roman well before the Protestant Reformation; it has been so at least since the [[Great Schism]]. The development of the pretensions of the Papacy is a complicated historical topic, but for a good part of the history of Christianity, Rome was a backwater, in a devastated and depressed area. It was only after the decline of Byzantium that the see of Rome was able to assert itself. In any case, omission of Roman is inherently POV, as this paragraph makes clear, and offensive to those Christians, Angl icans, Orthodox, and others, who
are not Roman Catholics, but feel a part of the catholic Church. This article is about Roman Catholicism. It should be moved to Roman Catholicism, which would make this moot. What defines Roman Catholicism, or "Catholicism" according to Roman Catholics, is acceptance of the claims of the Bishop of Rome. It is therefore right to call Roman Catholics Roman Catholic, and misleading or wrong to omit the Roman. -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:15, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This article is most definitely not about Roman Catholicism. It is a about Catholicism. More needs to be added about Anglo-Catholicism and others who also define themselves as Catholic but not Roman Catholic. Any move to Roman Catholicism would make no sense because it would require the removal or sections that are not about Roman Catholicism and about explaining the context of different strands of Catholicism. But as Roman Catholicism is by far the biggest strand of those who describe themselves as Catholic, and is what the vast majority of people of all religions and none think of when they hear the word catholic, it is quite natural that it would have by far the largest segment devoted to it. FearÉIREANN 05:04, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
As the writer of the above-quoted paragraph, I fail to see its POV-ness. Thank you for adding the citation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, IHCOYC, but I suggest you go a little further. Search the CCC (and earlier catechisms for that matter) for the term "Roman Catho lic" - it does not appear in the Catechism. There are references to the "Roman Church", the Roman Rite (which is what many Catholics mean by Roman Catholic, by the way), the Roman Catechism, etc., but not once does the Catechism acknowledge something called the Roman Catholic Church. The correct name is the Catholic Church. I intend to add an article about the history of the incorrect term. Harris7 22:31, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It is wrong to say that Catholic is the name only used by RCs. Most people across all religions use that term for RC. FearÉIREANN 18:37, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think that it is appropriate to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as such, when what is meant is that body of believers who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It's a helpful term for "the rest of us", even if it's not the official designation. Similarly, I think "Eastern Orthodoxy" is an acceptable term for the "Eastern Orthodox Church", even though I think you would be hard pressed to find any official church document that mentions such an entity by either name. It's a useful term to refer to the collection of Orthodox Christian churches that remain in communion with each other; they aren't only in the East any more, and also confess faith in "one holy catholic and apostolic church" and so in that sense also consider themselves catholic. No insult should be intended or perceived in either case. There are also a number of Protestant denominations with similar all-encompassing names, like the "Church of Christ", "Church of God", "Disciples of Christ", "Christian Church", etc. Every Christian church considers itself to be all of the things mentioned in these names, so some kind of qualifier or extra designation becomes useful when talking about them, just for the sake of clear communication if nothing else. Wesley 04:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I suspect that there is unfortunate ambiguity in the term Roman Catholicism, because it is most generally used as a synonym of Catholicism, but it also may mean the Roman rite in particular. Perhaps a convention would be best, such as:
- "Roman Catholic" for all of Catholicism (under the Pope) - "Roman Rite" if discussing only the Roman rite (not the Eastern Rite of Catholicism), and by extension, "Roman Rite Catholics" if discussing the people under Roman Rite. For example, Roman Rite priests may not be wed (unless they have converted from another rite or from Eastern Orthodoxy).
or of course the first term could be "Catholicism" for all of Catholicism; whatever you all think is best.
"It is organised in national hierarchies with diocesan bishops subject to archbishops." -- Is this true ? I thought in theory bishops were under the Pope.
Does this phrase —
— falsely imply too much about the basis of this position, or that it is the position of an exclusive sector of the Roman Cathoic church, rather than "papal", "mainstream", "official", "biblical", "established", "magisterial", "orthodox", etc. (all of which are at least as true concerning this position, as "traditionalist"? Mkmcconn 07:20, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I know this has probably been previously discussed, but I very strongly recommend that this article be restricted to discussion of Catholicism qua Apostolic Succession and the concept of a universal church, and that the discussion of the Catholic Churches -- i.e., the Roman and Eastern Churches in communion with the Roman Pontiff -- be moved to a separate article (probably Catholic Church) with a disambiguation header linking to this article. I make this proposal for two reasons: (1.) the Catholic Church is a large and complicated organism, and really ought to have its own article (as is the case in most encyclopedias); and (2.) only the doctrines and beliefs of the Catholic Church regarding Apostolic Succession and the nature of the Universal Church are relevant to discussion of Catholicism in those terms. The rest of the dogmas, hierarchies, and so forth of the Catholic Church are irrelevant to a discussion of Catholicism as participation in the Apostolic Succession and being part of a universal church. Publius 00:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Millions of Methodists consider themselves Catholic, as the Apostles' Creed is recited each Sunday: "I believe...in the holy catholic church..." These Christians may respect the Pope, but do not give allegiance to him, and for whom apostolic succession is moot. The page, as it is now written, excludes these Christians, and is therefore POV. "Catholic" in this sense includes all who are truly followers of Christ, whether Roman Catholic, or Methodist, or whatever group. In this light the first two paragraphs need a rewrite. For the time being, I'll not attempt it but "wait-and-see." (A teenager is apt to say "forgiveness is easier to get than permission" but a more mature person would say "fools rush in...." ;o) Pollinator 18:16, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
A lot of attention is given to the child abuse scandals. There is a separate page about this referenced in this page also so why not move it all there and keep the reference. The Catholic Church is not defined by this issue any more than it is by Vatican II which is hardly given enough focus or the dissident branches of the Catholic Church and the rebel Popes, which gets hardly any attention. This article is verging on being a little unfriendly. Neutrality is what is required by Wikipedia. I think this all needs to be slit into Catholic Church History, Catholic Heresy, Keep your children away from Papists Psb777 14:43, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion in the discussion above, so I'm going to try to give a concise summary of two important distinctions that need to be clear both in discussion here and in the article:
I've tried to find a site that lists all the Catholic Churches (sources said there are about 22 of them,) which Rite each of them belongs to, date at which they entered communion with the Holy See, etc. but I can't seem to find one. That'd be good information, and we should have it, if not necessarilly in this article. Anybody got a source? Isomorphic 05:29, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wait, here we go: this appears to be a good presentation. I haven't looked over the whole thing, but the introduction gives the basic history of the Catholic Eastern Churches. Isomorphic 05:37, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
OK, I took the plunge and spun off Roman Catholic Church. I think I got the bulk of the information moved. Cleanup is still required, but with the team we have buzzing on these topics right now, that should go quickly, I hope. Snowspinner 14:20, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Suggested revision for the deleted paragraph (is this not accurate and neutral?:
Among all the entries for various sects (we dare not used the word!) Wikipedia makes the childlike confusion of Religion and Church. I set one at the head of this article. "I belong to the such-and-so religion" the child confides naively. Aparently we're all rather naive in this area. A disamb is needed for Church, Rite, Communion, Religion]] etc etc Wetman 14:39, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Re: Intro. I think that the Roman Catholic Church, being a specific institution, is not studied in the same way as the general concepts of monarchy or capitalism. "Churches" are studied in the same way as monarchy and capitalism, but the Romman Catholic Church itself is going to be studied in the same way as specific institutions - not as general categories of institutions. Snowspinner 14:49, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wetman, Snowspinner, cut it out - I'm trying to do reorganization and clarification, and I keep getting edit conflicts because of your dispute. After this article and related articles are cleaned up and focused, we shouldn't need a message like that anyway, so quit arguing about exactly how it should read. Isomorphic 14:58, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have changed the redirect at Roman Catholicism from this article to Roman Catholic Church. If it's Roman it probably belongs there, and a brief list of all that links there suggests that they should be going there. Smerdis of Tlön 15:32, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
In all honesty this page is still a mess. There is a problem of competing claims for the right to the term "Catholic Church", both of whom are substantially groups (say hundreds of millions of people) who think they are entitled to it. Here, the first paragraph sets a definition which is violated by the third.
Isn't the solution a disambiguitation page (or whatever they are called): there are two uses of the phrase "Catholicism"; "Catholicism is either (1) an alternative name for Roman Catholicism or (2) refers to churches which may a claim to be Catholic etc etc BozMo (talk)
This article is an utter mess. Is it about "Catholic" churches in general or the followers of the Pope of Rome? I'll come back in a week or so to see what the answer is, and if there is no answer, I'll presume that it's supposed to be the former and alter the article accordingly. Dogface 21:08, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
The POV (hardcore pro-Roman Catholic) vandal who refuses to get a Wikipedia account is at it again. He has turned it back into a page that presumes that Roman Catholics are the only Catholics in the entire world. I have reversed his extreme POV reversion. Dogface 14:47, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
Be kind, please, don't call names. I don't think your edits are reliable. There are too many changes, too many attempts to try to make the Roman Catholic Church appear silly or incorrect. It will be too much work to go over all your edits and correct all the problems. I was just doing people a favor to revert to 14 May; it's closer to a balanced portrait. I don't presume that Roman Catholics are the only Catholics. The Roman Catholic Church does not presume that, either. 207.192.130.197 20:11, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
One other thought: In reverting this page I am not implying or proposing that it is a 'good page'. I just don't have confidence in the many things you've done to it. I do not consider, in other words, that the revision of 14 May is somehow a must-save version. 207.192.130.197 20:29, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I have had a chance to more closely examine the difference between the versions of 14 May and the one user Dogface has provided, and I am disappointed to say that I perceive a number of problems which warrant notice:
I agree that the file about Catholicism needs more organization and such, and perhaps I'll put my shoulder to the wheel, but I did want to share my observations, and request that user Dogface take greater care in his work.
I have had a look at the previous edits of user Dogface to this entry, and I find more examples of the removal of information.
I have offered improved definitions for this entry, and have re-organized it in places. I kept everything that was not made superfluous by the definitional section. I restored a point or two that appear to have been 'misplaced' over time, and that seem reasonable to me. 207.192.130.197 04:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Would you guys settle down? I havn't seen any vandalism here recently. What I have seen is an anon being bold. I reccomend you create an account, its easier tointeract w. Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 04:39, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thank you; I think I will be "Trc" from now on.
I would like to propose a further point. "Roman Catholic Church" is a very specific term. It is really that the "Catholic Church" encompasses the Roman Church and several others. I have arranged the pages now so that RCC content is now on CC, rather than the other way around. It really makes more sense. I also put the criticisms of the CC into a separate file, as that seemed logical. See what you think. Forgot: Trc 06:17, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. I want to talk more about the overall organization of the relevant files here. Snowspinner didn't like what I just did; let me try to explain it.
Up to now, it has worked like this:
The way it should work is:
What do you think? The key point is: The best understanding is that there is a "Catholic Church" which subsumes the churches in communion. That there are other Catholic churches is an argument for, not against, having "Catholic_Church" be the primary landing point. Trc 06:32, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, okay that wasn't very popular. Understand I meant no harm. I understand the "Catholic Church" to subsume the "Roman Church" and several others; it seems to me that the term "Catholic Church" ought to be the primary landing point. Do you agree in theory? Trc 06:51, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I suggest this:
and no harm done, your new, and you point out an undeveloped area. Sam [ Spade] 06:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Your suggestion is more sensible than what currently exists.
Incidentally it may be just as well to keep "catholic" a separate word, as they are in the dictionary. The word "catholic" gets enough use outside of the one specific context that it is reasonable for it to have a separate entry. Trc 06:58, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
The trouble is that while roman catholics prefer to be the considered the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, so do all the other catholics. And while 95%+ of the time somebody says "catholic" they mean roman catholic, that can be seen as technically incorrect or unfair by an ancient catholic, or even by a protestant, etc.... Finially, this is problematic because "Roman" is often ment as an insult by detractors, and while it seems to be at least largely accepted by Roman catholics, they rarely self identify as "Roman" catholic. I'm not 100% sure you (Trc) wern't right because of this last, but until we have a better name for them ("Roman" Catholics) which doesn't necesarilly include all the other non-roman catholics, this is the best way to leave things which I can think of. Sam [ Spade] 07:52, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for all your help today, Sam Spade. To follow up on it, I think what I was getting at was that "Catholic Church" is a larger category than "Roman Catholic Church", and that "Roman Catholic Church" is in some sense a misnomer that is common but inaccurate. An encyclopedia ought to place things according to their true nature, and use redirects or shorter explanatory entries to clean up after popular misunderstandings. Anyway, the Eastern Rite Catholics are subject to the Pope. That's what I mean: "Catholic Church" can refer to everything under the Pope, including and through the Roman Church. The churches sui iuris are part of his authority. The purpose of this is not to avoid offense, but to seek accuracy. In a way the Catholicism page already suggests the issue, in the section that states that "[t]he Catholic Church is a federation of 24 self-governing (sui iuris) churches...." In other words, there's a thing called the "Catholic Church". Oh well, through collaborative writing it will gradually improve. Trc | [ msg] 09:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
In this entry, it may be worth considering having the rites section link to existing pages, and making sure that the best of each information set is preserved. An entry exists for Eastern Rite and for Latin Rite, yet each is listed out here as well. Is it worth having them in both places? Trc | [ msg] 09:38, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Here is an argument for having a separate entry "Catholic Church." Almost all Christian sects consider themselves catholic: Lutherans, Orthodox churches (both Eastern and Oriental), The Assyrian Church of the East, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. They all also consider themselves to be a part of the catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Christ or the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. However, none of them consider themselves to be a part of the Catholic Church, i.e. the legal entity consisting of 24 churches in communion with each other and led by the Pope. In the same vein, members of the Catholic Church consider themselves to be orthodox, but they obviously are not a part of the Orthodox Church and do not consider themselves to be. Catholic Christians in England, since they are English, technically are a part of the church of England (i.e. the body of all English Christians), but they vehemently deny being a part of the Church of England or the Anglican Communion.
If you use the argument that having an entry for Catholic Church deal solely with the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, and Oriental Catholic Churches would cause some people to be offended, then you're unfortunately going to have to remove entries for Orthodox Church and Church of England, since these terms are as cut and dry as Catholic Church. This of course would be stupid. The bottom line is that the terms anglican, orthodox, and catholic apply to many churches. The terms Anglican Church, Orthodox Church, and Catholic Church apply to very specific communions of churches. Thus, there should be an entry catholic which deals with various uses of the term catholic, catholicism which deals with various uses of that term with a link to Catholic Church, which deals with the specific communion of churches.
Some have objected that the communion of 24 churches should be placed under Roman Catholic Church. This is incorrect. The Roman Catholic Church is the church with Cardinals, the church that celebrates the Mass, the church that requires celibacy for priests and bishops, and the church in which bishops are appointed by the Pope. That does not apply to the 23 other churches. The Maronite Catholic Church, the Syrian Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, and the other churches in the communion neither celebrate the Mass nor do they have Cardinals, nor are their priests required to be celebate, nor does the Pope appoint their bishops or patriarch (their bishops and their patriarch are elected by the other bishops in their church). They also are very opposed to being called Roman Catholic, since they are technically Maronite Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholic as the case may be. The point is that the Roman Catholic Church is only a section of the Catholic Church communion.
Regarding the sedevacantist churches, keep in mind that they claim to be the true Roman Catholic Church, not necessarily the true Catholic Church. The entry sedevacantism could be linked to at the beginning of Catholic Church, and it should definitely be linked to at the beginning of Roman Catholic Church. This solves the problem of other churches claiming to be other churches.
I think this takes care of all the ambiguities and eliminates all the confusion. Under this plan, all the churches which claim to be catholic get their say, all the churches which claim to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or the Church of Christ get their say, all the churches claiming to be a part of the Catholic Church communion get their say ((aside from BozMo: except those not accepted as part of that communion by Rome)), and all the churches which claim to be the Roman Catholic Church get their say. Let me know if you have comments. Pmadrid 15:21, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
+++ The foregoing comments are astute and factual. I encourage such a project. Trc | [ msg] 15:31, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article is still very POV and confused.
I think describing the official doctrinal position of Anglican Church as "some elements of Anglicanism" is rather silly as is the confusion between "high and low" church (which is about style of worship) and Evangelical versus Anglo-Catholic which is about belief. It is also very sad that we open quoting other dictionaries whereas as they seem to be there for dispute resolution they should be in the discussion pages.
Also the above comments on "Catholic Church" in the discussion pages perhaps qualify as official Roman doctrine but there are 60 million practicing Anglicans just as an example who belong to a church which officially declares itself to be part of the "Catholic Church", and who are used to declaring their belief in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" generally all in capital letter every Sunday without refering to the Pope and however unpalatable that is to some Roman Catholics who perhaps would like to own the word "Christian" aswell (wouldn't we all) it is widely recognised that catholic churches with apostolic succession falling on the Catholic side of the great schism are part of the "Catholic Church" rather than it being ones in communion with the Roman Church. I am just depressed that people are so partisan and don't even try to be correct to understand how anyone outside Romanism uses words. Okay, I know, there are only 60 million members of the Anglican communion against a billion RCs but that's partly counting and in any case tens of millions is enough aside other Catholics-- BozMo |talk 16:04, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree in spirit, in several ways. It pained me as well to open with a dictionary quote but the opening prior to that one was just a horrid mish-mash of half-steps and conflicted misery. Your comments about "Catholic Church" bring up an important point: At this time on Wikipedia the world's largest organized religion is not cogently described anywhere. This is partly why there are such confusions on the various pages that relate to it. No, the CC does not wish to own the word "Christian", as it describes Protestants with that term. But your reply to User:Pmadrid failed to address his point, viz. that none of the groups using the word "Catholic" in their title have any wish to be in communion with the Roman Church, which is one of the Catholic particular churches in the Catholic Church. There is a clear structural entity which does not yet have clear exposition on the server. Trc | [ msg] 06:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I guess the question to ask here is what do you call the union of the Roman Catholic Church, Maronite Catholic Church, Syrian Catholic Church, and others in that union? It can't just be 'Roman Catholic Church' because Roman does not apply to all of the churches. 'Papal Communion', might work, but it would accidently include sedevacantism in the communion, which is incorrect for both sides. Sedevacantists claim that John Paul II is illegitimate, and John Paul II claims that he is legitimate, but both sides accept a concept of papacy without being in communion with each other.
There needs to be an article encompassing the communion whose leader is John Paul II and his successors. It's unfortunately cumbersome to refer to this communion as anything but Catholic given modern parlance. Making the church be called in this encyclopedia "The Church Lead by Pope John Paul II" would be equivalent to asking Anglicans to refer to themselves as the "Church Whose Leader is the Archbishop of Cantebury" and asking the Eastern Orthodox Church to call itself the "Union of Autocephalous Churches Centering Around Constantinople." As I said before, Catholics assert their orthodoxy and English Catholics assert their membership in the church in England. So, why aren't we changing those names? Simple: they are the commonly used ones. We should follow naming conventions and keep this as simple as possible.
Now, let's look at some possibilities. Using 'Roman' to describe the entire communion has to be out. 'Roman Communion' and 'Roman Catholic Communion,' by insinuating this entire communion is Roman, is as equally insulting to Maronite Catholics as I bet insinuating that sedevacantists are not Catholic. 'Papal' is unfortunately too general. So, what do we call this thing? If we can just figure out a proper descriptor for this group of churches which isn't overly cumbersome and which a normal person would look up in an encyclopedia to find out about, we can get to writing good articles on the concept and belief system. Going off of the terms Eastern Orthodox Church and Anglican Communion, here are a few options I would like to offer:
Pmadrid 09:55, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It hink a member of an orthadox church, some of whom claim to trace their ancestry back to the time of Paul, would dispute that Catholicism is the oldest branch. Catholicism and Orthodox are surely the same age, wince they were origianlly one organisation. DJ Clayworth 18:02, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The "Evil Empire" section by User:195.93.34.9 does not belong in this article, or in Wikipedia. It is nothing but slander and vituperation, and the weak qualifier "so goes the theory" does not excuse it (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms). -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:24, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
...I have submitted a more rounded version, "Criticisms of Catholicism". Nothing is asserted by the entry itself. It is now aundantly clear that "certain groups have suggested that..." If anybody wants to include the Catholic "answer" to each point as a counter-point, feel free. Bigotry for its own sake was never the intention. I merely wanted to balance a slightly biased article where only the positive sides to a religion have been touched upon.
If I decide to use this website on a long-term basis, I will create a 'proper' account. You say that some of the criticisms are accademically discredited, but they are opinions still held by many people. It is made obvious that they are just opinions - it is never claimed that any of them are right or wrong. Some of the POV stuff, especially the Arab invasion material, was added by another user although I've edited slightly (check the article history in detail).
I suggest editing and refining (or even re-writing) rather than deleting, otherwise I can just keep posting it back. Adding a Catholicism-related section to an article about Catholicism is not vandalism, but deleting an entire section might be.
Regardless of what some users may think, I believe that helping to put the subject "Catholicism" in a more relevant context (ie the world we live in, and the opinions of those in that world about the subject) can only be a good thing. If somebody wants to write something about the relative psychological benefits of the religion or whatever, this would be good too. Without such points, the information is neutral, yes, but without direct relevance to anything in particular. It is like writing an article on Nazism and forgetting to point out that many people thought/think Nazism was a bad idea. I may lack the writing skill, but I feel strongly that these kind of points are needed - yes, in THIS article.
Antaes, you come off sounding like a raving fanatic.
Was your dad a Catholic priest or something?
Sorry dude, but I can see the blood vessles bursting in your eyes making pretty red star-bursts as you bash the keys in self-righteous anger.
Relax and get a life.
You ARE vandalizing the page by deleting relevant material,
and a list of widespread opinions on a subject is obviously relevant to that subject.
Do you go to the Nazism article and delete all references to groups who had the audacity to question or challenge Hitler with their opinions?
Your moronic EvilEmpirePedia joke doesn't make you right.. -- ClarityMS07 02:00, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That was me, User:195.93.34.9 (although the IP seems to jump all over the place). Throwing accusations at other users or friends of mine just makes you look daft. If you want to ban or block anybody, then I'm the one who did that out of frustration (and because I have a childish sense of humour). However, about 30 kids use this internet connection, so you'd be banning a lot of ppl if they ever wanted to use this site.
'Everyone' will merely infer that you have little do do but nitpick every little sentence for semantic errors and such, taking everything literally and getting yourself very stressed.
Can't really comment, but you do come across as a walking time-bomb. I hope you don't do anything silly and get yourself on the TV news.
Actually, yes. I, for one, do. If presented in the right way, they would be fine. Knowing that about contraversal opions that many people hold can be an eye-opener, in that case about Jewish banking cartels.
From what I can tell, three or four different users have re-posted that section. They are MY opinions (I started that whole 'Evil Empire' thread at the begining), but ClarityMS probably doesn't if he says not. You seriously need to go back and look at the article history in detail. You seem confused (this is an 'opinion').
"I'm right, I'm right, I'm right" seems more what you are doing than anyone else. The Roman Catholic Church is central to Catholicism, as you well know. If the Church institution died, the whole religion would probably cease to exist in one or two years. The Faith is dying worldwide even with the Church doing its 'evil empire' stuff. Whatever my ideas are, though, the Roman Catholic church and Catholicism as a whole go hand in hand. Hmm, I wonder if the Pope is a Catholic.
You are saying "they are not" without any valid explanation, and others have said "they are too!" Since the relevance and extent of these ideas are obvious, that's all that needs to be said. It would be like one of use trying to "prove" the sun is hot to somebody who keeps repeating, "no it's not, heat is relative" It comes down to wording and your particular stance I suppose, if you refuse to see the obvious relevance.
Well, that was me vandalising the page. You can't claim everybody who disagrees with you are guilty of the same act. In fact, I think you must be willfully, knowingly, throwing those fallicious accusations. I did it, but then I am a childish imp. I admit it. Freely. Bite me.
They are on the correct article, but you refuse to accept it. Whay can a guy do?
ClarityMS seems to have integrity. Well, he may have. The point is, you have no real grounds for attacking him. It was I do deleted the various comments and twisted your snide remarks into self-mockery. Ban me if you wish. I can just go to an internet cafe or use a friends computer, while everyone else would suffer from my actions.
Again, you are (willfully?) confusing two users. You seem intelligent, so perhaps you are doing so with full knowledge of your 'mistake'. If so, what does that say about YOUR integrity?
See above, above, above...
It's already been answered. Can you not read?
Please. Spare us. How can you post the above with a straight face? user ClarityMS07 did not vandalize the talk page. Is this a deliberate attempt at misinformation. If you, you overlook the fact that anybody can read the page history. Jeeez.
You are twisting things. Yes they should be aware of these opinions if they came to the page wanting a lot of information and a lot of different perspectives on the subject. Which they would be.
Ideas that millions of people hold about the RCC is not relevant to Catholicism? Wha-? Come on. You can do better than that. No matter how clever you phrase the "it's not relevant" statement, it clearly is, and everybody can see that it is.
Again, you have yet to convincingly establish that it is in the wrong article. It is in exactly the right article.
See above.
The entity and the belief system are hand and glove. If you can't see any connection, I worry for your highly trained mind.
I for one have decided to disagree that there should be a seperate section advocating catholicism. However, for the sake of consistency, Id be willing (if not happy) to leave it there.
Hmmmmmm...
Heil to that.
From what I can see, he started with his first repost. I use my own limited brain to do sneaky and subversive things like frightening owls and corrupting data on LANs. Or something.
This edit by -
195.93.32.8 01:14, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wow, two users who are close friends, using computers on a network sitting on desks next to each other, actually discussing this nutty guy Antaues and his catholicism rants... and they BOTH post on Catholicism in a short period of time!?!?! Wow, that is totally unbelievable and impossible!!! Surely!!!! (I'd better point out that I'm being sarcastic, or you'll take this to be a reinforcement of your fallicious statements. - 195.93.32.8 03:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That is funny. The person you are refering to has been studying computer science for two years, and he doesn't know anything about IP addresses? Do you even know what IP stands for? Why do you continually make these wild assumptions when there is obviously no way you could know about a person on the other end of an internet connection?
"You're just a bunch of morons"? No, only one springs immediately to mind. - 195.93.32.8 03:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Huh? You are getting your knickers in a twist, and you you are so off the mark it is nearly beyond belief.
Have I said that these comments weren't me or tried to deny them?
There you go again. Assuming things when you have no information to base those assumptions upon. You are not physically here. For all you know, there could be ten of us sitting around this monitor right now. In fact, there are four people in here - one of whom is somebody you having been calling a "disturbed loser", although I'm not sure which of us is supposed to accept the insult.
lol@Antaeus for leaping to totally false conclusions *yet* again. You can yell at ClarityMS07 all you want, I don't care one bit, but you are completely wrong. He is not me. I'll yell at him with you if it makes you happy. There are two, (possibly three) users using this internet connection to look at this site from this building. There are about 30 other ppl who could have accessed the site, but this is a matter of speculation. Despite this, I've never tried to deny posting anything. I've actually said loud and clear: I TAMPERED WITH THE TALK PAGE as a one off. And: I CREATED THE EVIL EMPIRE THREAD. How is that trying to deny anything? Did you actually read my comments? Your loopy comments are beyond astounding.
No, deleting my user information was minor vandalism, but I already dropped the issue.
Neither of us care. Believe what you wish to believe. Hold whatever delusions you want to hold.
Listen very carefully. I'll type this really slowly so that you can understand:
195.93.32.8 = 195.93.32.8 (probably always the same user (as far as I know))
ClarityMS07 = ClarityMS07 (somebody completely different)
(me)
Get it? Do you understand? Is dribble forming on your chin as you try to work it out in your head?
Dear oh dear. I thought I'd seen it all.
- 195.93.32.8 03:09, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
That's right, bail out and continue to pretend that it is impossible for two people to access a site from one computer ("oh, it's cuz of... erm, 'technical reasons'", you mutter under your breath). Continue to pretend to somehow 'know' that two indviduals are actually one, despite the fact that you've never stepped foot in this place or met any of us. This is wise.
I for one am getting sick and tired of this article. Trying to rv valid sections of the article while these fascistic book-burning types continually resort to prissy censorship while trying to claim the moral high-ground... is just plain boring. Maybe someone else will take up the fight. If so, maybe I'll return to help at some point.
Before I go, a warning: I advise caution when reading Cardinal Feldspar's insidious propaganda (it's sure to come in bucket-loads after this), and that of his bible-wielding friends. Also watch out for his subtle tampering with the talk page. So desperate is he to 'prove' the validity of his stance that he's likely to write several novel-length critiques of some edited version of everything I am saying here. For now, his fantacial censorship crusade has worked (hurrah for you). However, you can always re-post the deleted material by viewing the article history. Watch out for the poor guy's blood pressure though.
Peace.
I have changed one of the subject headings from the wholly inaccurate "Criticisms of Catholicism" to the correct "Criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church". Anyone who wishes to revert it back is invited to list the logic for doing so here on the talk page. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:04, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)