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I don't mind including the points by Aristides and Theophilus but only once we've established whether that they've said is (i) important for this topic; (ii) and having influenced Church teaching. Aristides said in reference to the greek gods: "some transformed themselves into the likeness of animals to seduce the race of mortal women, and some polluted themselves by lying with males". How does this help our understanding of the topic if he's talking about the greek gods? It's a bit general isn't it? I accept he may have been a saint but to be frank we don't have to give weight to every word uttered by saints. St Peter Martyr and St Bernardino said some pretty foul things which the Church distances itself from today. Likewise I'm not convinced Theophilus is that significant in the west and clearly he didn't use the word "homosexuality" - so what was the original word in greek? Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
The quote from Aristides about the Greek gods is frankly laughable and highly tenuous. Presumably the argument for condemning "homosexuality" is the use of the word "polluted"? If you read the rest of that sources is says that the quote should not be seen as condemning same-sex sexual acts. Again, please provide some supporting evidence that Aristides was influential in shaping Catholic thought around homosexuality. And if it's strong enough then we'll put it in.
2) I'm a little confused about drawing a parallel with raining cats and dogs but let's put that to one side. Pederasty is not the "usual" translation of this words - there are lots of very different words in fact if you do the research. And if you look back through discussion on the talk page then you'll come to a fair few of them. We gain nothing from trying to over-simplify this to push a particular narrative or point of view. It's very highly nuanced. You also jumping to conclusions that the Didache meant sex when it speaks about "corrupting boys"! Don't view second century texts through the prism of the 21st century. You might be right, you might be wrong. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
I stand by my assessment that this qualifies as of mid-importance on the Wiki:Catholic project group (of which, incidentally, I remain a member). Its worth checking what other articles are assessed as mid-importance. They include Holy Face of Lucca and the Knights of Colombus. Fairly minor issues in the global scheme of things. Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
{od}I have given my reasons, you have given your reasons, let a neutral third party change it. Marauder40 ( talk) 10:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Just because someone wrote about homosexuality doesn't make the person a "notable gay/bi Catholic". Many of the people you added to this section, even the article about the person says the issues is debated on whether they are or aren't gay (i.e. Ludgwig II, Henry Benedict Stuart). Also the reliable sources you used at times only attested to why they were notable, not the fact that they definitely were gay/bi. If it isn't certain the person was gay/bi then they shouldn't be added to this article as if they definitely are gay/bi. Marauder40 ( talk) 12:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that if you read it in context it says, "However, as his own frank (and I believe honest) notebooks show, sexual intimacy with men was acceptable when a reward ("fortune") was offered. In other words, Nikinky had sex with both men and women. He was bisexual." If you use this definition of bisexual, you would have to declare every "gay for pay" porn star out there bisexual. I doubt any reputable psychologist out there would agree with that definition. Is this one source valid for declaring that a fact without any disclaimer otherwise? Even his wife said he wasn't. I don't think so. But this is just one example, there are more blatant examples of situations where there is doubt, especially among the people that lived in earlier times. Marauder40 ( talk) 20:45, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
@ Contaldo80: are you planning to pick this up again? Perhaps if we did it one or two at a time. Who would you like to start with? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians, While I respect the editors involved in creation of this section, and their efforts in improving the Encyclopedia, greatly, on review of the material contained it would seem to be WP:UNDUE to include this level of detail and this comprehensive a list in this article. Persons who are homosexual, lesbian or bisexual and also Catholic would be necessarily affected by the church's stance on sexuality, but a comprehensive list of such persons, however notable, does not seem germane to the topic itself.
In addition, a number of the persons listed here are only coincidentally Catholic, not notably so; and the sexuality of a number of the persons listed is presented as a matter of speculation in the articles on those persons. If we are to include persons in a list such as this they should be presented per the consensus at their main Article pages.
I suggest splitting this list to a separate, list-only Article. Thoughts? - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 04:43, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Integrityandhonesty: the statement by the church that they oppose "unjust" discrimination cannot magically erase multiple instances of the Holy See, bishops' conferences, etc. campaigning against antidiscrimination laws and policies. We must reflect what reliable sources say and cannot remove information simply because a user wishes it wasn't true. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Like you - there is no desire for "magic or wishful thinking". What is being shared is what the RC as a body actually and officially holds to on the subject of same-sex attraction, relationships and marriage and why. With that, like any global institution, the RC has global sized challenges to contest with: multiple cultures, laws, languages and forms of civil governance. Like any global sized body you will find these influences manifest in multiple and varying ways. Not all of them genuinely reflect its theology, philosophy, etc.
Those who profess to be Catholic that fail in this [and agreed there are many] will suffer in the long run and will face the consequences in one form or another. Such as those who support capital punishment in this regard, or unjust discrimination, such as, being refused service at a private commercial enterprise, housing, health care, imposed social separation and so on. In some cases cited here we're dealing more with indigenous cultural mores that have been in place for over a thousand years in some instances than with Catholic theology and philosophy. To the extent these cultural mores are out of line is the extent to which they should be addressed and denounced.
This Article is titled: Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism. The lead should reflect the actual official documents, catechism and pedagogy of the RC - not - selective quotes from a handful from an RS that are out of line with this - or support one political objective in favor of another. Clearly, many do not hold to what the RC does on this subject. And, many who see discrimination in this will never agree, such as, what is marriage, or what is moral and ethical in human sexual relations. What can be found in common is supporting the human dignity of all wether there is agreement or not. It is less than neutral to select a handful [sometimes sorely lacking context] and then apply it to the whole while strongly implying the whole supports discrimination in this. The placing of polemics of this kind in the lead in not a neutral stance. It taints the entire Article in a false light by separating it from the complexity of its context. Not that these points should not be addressed and pointed to - they should be - but to imply - because you do not agree - that what it [the RC] holds to regarding this is ipso facto discrimination is not fully a neutral stance. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 18:07, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
A verifiable RS does not of necessity mean object facts are presented free of bias. And, more directly, that an editors interpretation of the content of an RS is wholly objective. It simply means its verifiable and a reliable source of information. Nor, does an RS or an editor have an irrefutable claim as to what is truth, or their interpretation is the only valid position pre se, simply because its published in the mainstream, especially, on a topic such as this.
The original point is the lead sets the tone of an Article and should reflect its title. Since it's primarily addressing the philosophy and theology of Roman Catholicism with regard to same-sex attraction, relationships, etc. it should reflect fully its officially proclaimed understanding as a universal body first and foremost so what proceeds is seen in that light. As it stands, it's very superficial and very lacking being reduced to a handful of sentences.
In no manner can this be seen as proper protocol in any encyclopedia. If corrected, when someone speaks in contradiction to this it can be discerned as such regardless of a persons status in the Roman Catholic Church or others who desire, or are motivated, to present it through the prism of their POV, world view or bias backed by a string of verifiable RS's to support attempts at selective editing or offering a subjective interpretation of the content of an RS.
If we desire to offer critique of this position in detail? It is wiser to create a new section to the article such as: Criticism of . . . . or Opposition to . . . " To a large degree this exists already, but somewhat ad hoc.
In this way, when there are clear statements in contradiction to its universal publicly proclaimed theology and philosophy reflected in its official universal documents it will be clear enough. Or, when "spin slips in" in either direction it should be addressed to retain neutrality. When world views are divergent it's a challenge. In this there is no doubt and it's understood. This does not mean editors can not work together while offering one another due respect to improve an article.
It is not in the spirit of Wikipedia on such a controversial subject to imply in a lead the words and actions of a few reflect the whole, thereby, setting the tone of the whole Article in this way. This should be made clear. By the whole - in this instance - is to mean critically where the RCC stands universally and officially; this is particularly a concern when it's taken out of this proper context.
There is never going to be agreement on what is marriage between the RCC and others. This is more directly personally wishing what is to be true. Many see as discrimination in itself by the RCC as to where it stands on this topic; again, as ipso facto. This will never change. What is possible is to offer due respect to varying POV's and focus on what is possible to maintain neutrality and avoid political intrigue and/or simply offering a subjective personal opinion as an edit Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 18:07, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
18:31, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
This Fall there will be an historical Synod on Family on par with Vatican II in its significance. Among the topics are same-sex attraction, marriage and so on. By all means injustice should be brought to light and addressed in the Article such as the positive inhumanity of capital punishment in this regard, or Civil Laws that attempt to relegate those with same-sex attraction to second class citizens and so on; or are tolerant of bigotry, hatred or violence towards those with same-sex attraction. Now, how this relates to marriage is complex. But, where there is ignorance and injustice in the RCC on this very important topic should be fully exposed. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 19:53, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
a) It would be a fundamental mistake - if - that is what I meant. By stating "the lead should reflect"? The intention was not in the sense of an editor's interpretation or "reflection" upon a primary source or sources, but rather, inclusion of actual text of a primary source. In this instance, the official universal documents, catechism, etc. of the RCC on this topic. So my words did not fully express clearly what was intended. And so, I understand the confusion.
On that point, what is being said - perhaps more clearly - is the source document(s) relevant to the topic of the Article should be quoted and cited in the lead as summarily as is reasonable in a manner concordant to the content of the body of the Article in a comprehensive way. This is what is being put forward.
As it stands, it [the lead] is so minimal as to directly quoting source documents of the RCC - literally a few sentences - the lead does not actually offer a comprehensive summary of the body as it relates to the RCC. This is the thrust of what is being said.
b) As to inclusion of a summary directly quoting the Compendium in the lead on marriage? It's difficult imagine a more concise summary than a compilation of the relevant portions of the Compendium on this topic, which is quoted directly, free of interpretation or reflection that ties the lead to the body. What was added were four short and concise sentences directly quoting the source document itself and no more. Further, they were added to the paragraph speaking to marriage because the quotes of the Compendium referenced discuss marriage as does the body.
Regarding the first portion. It speaks to marriage as the Church understands it, which the body does as well, and is wholly relevant to the Article itself.
Now, some may not agree what the document has to say on this - but this is a direct quote of an official document of the RCC on the topic and adds substance to comprehension of the body. Not agreeing with a source document is not sufficient reason or cause to omit it. No one is interested in a "little edit war". I will reinstate what was added. If we cannot come to a reasonable compromise or agree ? Then we should seek third party arbitration on the matter. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 23:26, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that edit other than - perhaps - what it states based on your POV bias, or legitimately, its scope and length. This too is becoming somewhat evident. Very sad and disturbing if true.
Through this entire dialogue there was not a single offer or hint at compromise regarding this edit, a suggestion of how this legitimate RS citation could be included and so on. This is what exposes the nature of what seems to be happening. If it continues ? It should rightly be brought to the attention of administrators. The edit will be modified per our discussion. Nevertheless, it has a legitimate place to be included in the lead at some level. It serves the reader well to offer comprehensive context in a concise fashion. Short of this? Something else other than legitimate editing is taking place and very saddening.
Censorship, steering, and ownership is not what should be taking place here consensus or not. Censorship, steering and owning by consensus is still censorship, steering and ownership. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 03:24, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
What you put forward is bordering on weaseling. General statements of no substance. Without analysis? You mean your interpretation seen through the prism of your POV bias? The edit is a direct quote free of "analysis". What could be more direct and objective , or do you prefer - what, exactly ? This is truly sad. It is wholly out the spirit of neutrality causing readers to be denied legitimate information from an legitimate RS in full compliance with guidelines. Not agreeing with an RS is not justification of omission. My question and challenge still stands. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 17:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
The legitimacy of portions of the Article is now challenged, specifically, the second paragraph of the lead. There appears to be a handful of editors who are attempting to steer and own this paragraph, and perhaps the Article itself, and are engaging in a form of censorship bias by subjectively and arbitrarily applying policy and guidelines regarding a lead. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 17:18, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Attempts at censorship, steering and ownership is a serious matter. What is taking place in this instance is just very sad indeed. There is positively no violation of guidelines or policy in that edit - whatsoever - and wholly relevant and in compliance.
What we have here is an apparent attempt at "thought policing" by denying readers access to legitimate information using an RS and citation. Wholesale reverts while offering no suggestions at compromise or truly specific and substantive critique is what exposes this. So far the only legitimate offering was in reference to the first sentence of the original edit [which was removed] with the remainder added back; only to see the edit reverted again wholesale without explaining why.
Here in the United States we place a high value on free speech and fair play. What is happening here in this case falls woefully short of that. It has all the hallmarks of an attempt to censor a legitimate voice that is fully in compliance. It is being "called out". That's what is being said. It appears it will remain so. And, its a shame. At least it is on the record. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 10:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
As for theology? The Article is about - in large measure but not wholly - the RCC and its doctrine as it relates to homosexuality. How do we separate a religious institution and its doctrine from theology? It is the very bedrock from which all things flow from it. It's akin to discussing the former Soviet Union separated from the theories of Marxism. It will make for an incomprehensible Article open to steering toward a bias, thereby, neutrality is lost. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 11:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
But, I accept the notion that what is currently in the lead on marriage is minimally sufficient. To simply say, however, the Catholic Church teaches marriage can only be between a man and a woman with no concise offering as to why this is so is not much different than saying it teaches a clear sky is blue with no offering why it says its blue. It is very lacking.
Three short sentences to offer meaningful insight and comprehension in its proper context from an RS with a valid citation is helpful and beneficial to readers. Beyond this, we're dealing with subjectivity and a conscience decision to omit valid information.
With that, when a topic in a lead is specifically put forward in the second paragraph it implies high importance and germane to the Article. It should then be addressed in the body. There is no section on marriage. And, from what I read, there is no discussion of it - at all - in a direct comprehensive sense. Why is this?
If so, then this portion of the paragraph should be removed [not that I advocate this] because its not directly discussed in the body comprehensively. Or, a section should be added. Its one or the other by objective Wikipedia guidelines. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 12:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Contaldo80 - As an aside, and to your points - all my edits are in my log-in username and signed. Hope I'm not putting words in your mouth - at least - that's not the intention. I said ," I accept the notion. ", which are clearly my own words. That is, the idea that what is there [ the 2nd paragraph of the lead] is minimally sufficient. I did not state you said this.
I'm accepting the boarder point made by you and others regarding the lead. Though I think what is there [the 2nd paragraph of the lead] is sorely lacking. So, I hope this addresses your concerns.
As stated, a few short concise sentences does not seem very long to me, and perhaps to others. It being "boring" is your take and you're entitled to see it that way of course. Beyond these ancillary points and the lead question is resolved for the moment - where in the body of the Article are we seeing a comprehensive addressing of the RCC as to marriage, as they specifically relate to homosexuality and marriage which specifically connects the content of the lead with the body. Please show us this.
There is an over-abundance about the politics of this topic [same-sex attraction & marriage]; support and opposition in the section titled "Campaign against same-sex marriage and civil unions", with a spattering, ad hoc and disjointed exhortation, etc. What about why the RCC sees same-sex marriage in a certain light beyond the hyper-simplistic "one man one woman" and "natural law" ?
There is more there than "theology" as one editor pointed out. A new section would address this well and its content in the lead requires it.
So, the point being made is: the lead introduces the topic in the second paragraph yet it does not cover it in the body directly and comprehensively i.e., marriage. Therefore, there should be a section covering this in a concise and comprehensive way connecting the content of the lead to the body.
If this is genuinely an Article about Roman Catholicism and Homosexuality? What the RCC holds to as to same-sex marriage should be expressed comprehensively and not abridged to the point of slogans and four word phrases condensed into literally two sentences in the entire Article. Unless of course the point of all this is to place the RCC in the most unfavorable light possible.
Since its given high priority in the lead? Does this not make sense and the very spirit of neutrality and the guidelines ? Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 14:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Anyhow, we're here to discuss facts and to improve an Article. The Article content you point to Contaldo80 is not at all a comprehensive exhortation of the understanding of same-sex marriage and marriage as it relates to homosexuality as the RCC holds to. It's a pastoral response to legislation introduced in Civil Law regarding same-sex marriage to bishops. It contains portions as it relates to marriage. And, what is there in the Article of this document is "cherry picked". Worse - the document itself is not linked so readers can see for themselves what it says and in its proper context. This can be easily addressed as demonstrated here: Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition of Unions Between Homosexual Persons.But, there is a whole lot of commentary and "interpretation" going on there. That can be okay - but it is what it is.
As an aside - those types of documents are not dogma or doctrine by the way. Catholics and its clergy are not bound by them outside dogma or doctrine. They are guidelines from one body of the RCC sharing what they understand is the proper course on a particular issue and why. Maybe you learned something today.
As to the marriage issue. Not suggesting a new section of so great detail and length that it would all but call for a separate Article. We have here sections on numerous topics. Why not one which straightforwardly explains how the RCC understands marriage?
The Article on Marriage that is suggested is very broad. It covers the full history of marriage as it relates to virtually every perspective from religious [of multiple faith traditions] to secular. There is no reference to it in this Article as well. Readers would have to "dig" to find the RCC understanding in that Article while being commingled with others. And, the vast majority of readers will not bother. Why would we place an obstacle in the way? A new section, a paragraph or two, and we're done. Simple.
This Article is very specific as to the RCC. It only stands to reason that its understanding of marriage be specifically addressed comprehensively.
This Article is about Homosexuality and the RCC - at least - ostensibly. The Article introduces marriage in the lead. Would it not benefit the reader to see what it holds to about marriage and same-sex marriage in a fully comprehensible fashion - not mere bullet-point sentences that offer very little insight that are dolled out in bits and pieces and peppered here and there outside the context of what it understands as marriage fully? Given the importance this Article stresses on marriage its compelled to do so. Short of this, context suffers greatly and neutrality is substantially compromised for lack of context and material omission. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 11:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Marauder - thank you for reminding us why we are here and how we should interact as editors presuming good faith.
In spite of our wavering several very sound ideas and suggestions seemed to have emerged from a number of editors. Allow me offer some suggestions that may allow us to get past this impasse and please offer your feed back.
a) In the section "Campaign against same-sex marriage and civil unions" - we link the document "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition of Unions Between Homosexual Persons" to the source document so readers can access it to read and reference themselves.
b) In the second paragraph of the lead we can "wikilink" the Article Marriage (Catholic Church) into an agreed phrase, such as, "The Catholic Church holds marriage is [or only can be] . . . . wherein, the word marriage is linked to the Article Contaldo80 pointed to.
These improvements will allow readers to "go deep" in a manner that does not present an obstacle and to learn free of "interpretation", or bias commentary.
This may be the start of us coming to a consensus that offers a genuine compromise we'll all feel results in an improvement of the Article and make this effort worth the energy we have spent on this. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 01:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The second main section is titled "History of the Catholic Church and Homosexuality". The word "homosexuality" should not be capitalized. I'd like whoever has permission to fix this. It should be completely uncontroversial. -- V2Blast ( talk) 11:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I think the Political Activity and Sackings section are getting newsy again. We should be summing this sort of thing up, not listing every incident with a quotation. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:44, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Contaldo80: Again? Maybe you can try to condense all this? There's no encyclopedic value to these pull quotes. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:10, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an extremely subjective phrase. And the sources represent a limited polling among a few countries, hardly representative of 1.2 billion Catholics. It is not in the interest of WP:NPOV to say "many" or "some" or "a few" or "a whole bunch" or "tons and tons", especially not with the sources we're currently looking at. My edit acknowledges the existence of the dissent, and for hard numbers, the reader only needs to look at the corresponding section in the same article. It is not far. Let's banish subjectivity from this prominent place it currently has, in the interest of neutrality. Elizium23 ( talk) 01:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry but this is just ridiculous. Although it is true that in the first world those raised Catholic who apostasised, agnostics, cafeteria Catholics, and a couple of regular attendees dissent from church teachings. This is in no way more numerous then the rest of the liberal population. The Netherlands was the first country to legalise gay marriage and it was traditionally Protestant and had become one of the most Atheist countries in the world. The Protestants there even bless same sex marriages. The Remonstrants being the first church to ever do so. England was also very early in the game with many Anglicans and Atheists supporting gay marriage. There was never any notable opposition, from agnostics or liberals. A great number of Anglicans who opposed gay marriage actually became Catholic.
In Sweden those Lutherans who opposed liberalism often became Catholic. Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, Norway, and Iceland all had little Catholics and legalized gay marriage with ease. In Belgium and Spain gay marriage was legalized by the socialist parties who are largely voted for by he irreligious. Ireland has only recently legalized gay marriage under outside pressure, with a lot of support coming from the youth, the Presbyterians and the Church of Ireland. 38 % voted against and about that many Irish regularly attend mass. Catholics are more devout in Northern Ireland where it is still not allowed. There is no Protestant or largely secular country in Europe where gay marriage was not legalized. Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Italy, Austria, Lithaunia, Slovakia, all are yet to legalise it. Even Germany and Switzerland now have more Catholics then Protestants. 83.128.175.68 ( talk) 13:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
In the USA Unitarians have supported homosexuality for decades. Episcopalians bless gay marriages, so do various Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed Churches, all branches of Judaism except Orthodox Judaism. The strongest Protestant opposition comes from the full evangelicals. Also Atheists, agnostics, and liberals are even more supportive. Various Protestants became Catholic because they found their churches to liberal. This also happened in England with countless Anglicans converting, which also happened in Australia, and the USA itself.
Also Argentina is well known for being one of the more liberal countries in South America, and many Catholics aren`t committed. Only about 20 % is practicing. This is far different from Chile where the church has more influence in society and politics. Or Colombia where most people oppose it. Urugay and Brazil are the only other 2 countries to legalise gay marriage, and the former is the most Atheist of all Latin American countries and the latter has one of the largest Protestant majorities. Gay marriage has been completely rejected in Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguy, and Ecuador. The same applies to Dominica, Panama, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Honduras, and so on.
Also most Mexican states do not aknowledge gay marriage and it is far from being legalized there. Also these polls are often highly disputed, and often come from very anti-Catholic circles. In fact one of them mentions the church itself disputed the claims. 83.128.175.68 ( talk) 10:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
An IP has started edit-warring to remove well sourced text because of biased anti catholic sources? (83.128.175.68). (I have warned them). Their edit summary refers to the discussion on Talk page, which doesn't exist, so here is an opportunity for the IP to explain why the UNHCR is an anti catholic source ... - Roxy the dog™ ( Resonate) 12:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Well I has been strongly accused of Liberal bias, and here are some things hat contradict these claims:
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/if-we-dont-care-gay-marriage-will-pass
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/poll-shows-regular-mass-attendants-oppose-gay-marriage/
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen2/15b/Ireland-marriage-vote/result-analysis.html
This deserves to be heard also. 83.128.175.68 ( talk) 15:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
' Again there should be balance. The Catholic side is often silenced in the media the way Jews were in the thirties. So your standards put the Catholic faith at a disadvantage. John Cornwell published a bigoted book full of lies but he just got in the media more who repeated his falsehoods.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/13/figure-that-98-of-catholic-women-use-birth-control-debunked/
83.128.175.68 ( talk) 13:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
GSS data
Is this worthy of inclusion as a ref? -- Callinus ( talk) 14:18, 8 August 2015 (UTC
I want to try and get this article up to Good Article status. But not sure how I need to go about it and who might help. Anyone any advice? Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
(to Cardinal Hume's letter) is a dead link! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 15:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Done Thanks! – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:00, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
While I'm a believer in keeping close to sources, I'm also a believer in ensuring we make articles clear to a reader. The Bishop of Hong Kong may have said in his letter that parishioners should "consider candidates' and their parties' stance on family and marriage issues" but what he means is voters should vote against candidates that promote LGBT issues such as gay marriage and discrimination provisions. As those are things that he has consistently opposed. And that position is cosnsistent with the wider points made in the source itself. He isn't saying that they should find pro-LGBT candidates and vote in favour of their policies is he? Let's say what is meant clearly and unambiguosly. Long-time followers of announcements and speeches from Catholic prelates on gay issues will be familiar with rhetoric that sounds like it is vague and woolly and means no harm to anyone, but does in fact contain a specific message. I want articles to be direct, transparent and open - rather than obfuscatory. This does no one any favours and is somewhat dishonest. Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
"In his latest letter, Tong wrote: "In recent years, extreme liberalism, individualism, sexual liberation and gay rights movement [activists] … advocated that Hong Kong should introduce a sexual orientation discrimination ordinance and recognise same-sex marriage. This has shaken our society to its core." The SODO has been debated in Hong Kong for nearly twenty years and the proposal (rejected recently by lawmakers) is to introduce non-discrimination provisions related to employment/ services on the grounds of sexual orientation in order to bring this group into line with gender, ethnicity, and disability. The following links provide further information:
It's also worth noting that the Catholic Church has consistently opposed the introduction of legidlation by governments on the grounds of sexual orientation (there is a section on this in the wikipedia article), and indeed continues to state that there are areas where such discrimination is legitimate (for example teaching). I appreciate some editors may be drawn towards a "damage limitation exercise" but this article really isn't the place for it. Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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Donner60 - you reverted edits by Tiffanynicolina on the grounds of "Addition of negative unsourced content to a biographical article". The statement was sourced. But what annoys me is that you've described it as "negative". There is nothing negative about suggesting someone is gay. I personally agree that the statement is poorly sourced and speculative and violates BLP. But be clear to keep it out on those grounds without judgements on sexual orientation. Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:45, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
The following sentence is highly POV:
This is clearly POV, coming specifically from the LGBTQA+ movement's perspective.
The final parenthesis is also problematic in light of paragraph 2358 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
tl;dr: The above-quoted sentence from the intro needs to be revised so as not to be POV pro-LGBT movement. Crusadestudent ( talk) 03:27, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Since a discussion of this type is going on over here, I figured it would be a good place to mention that there is a similar terminology discussion going on at the Courage International page in relationship to usage of the terms "gay" vs. "same-sex attraction" vs. other terms. Marauder40 ( talk) 12:45, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
I don't mind including the points by Aristides and Theophilus but only once we've established whether that they've said is (i) important for this topic; (ii) and having influenced Church teaching. Aristides said in reference to the greek gods: "some transformed themselves into the likeness of animals to seduce the race of mortal women, and some polluted themselves by lying with males". How does this help our understanding of the topic if he's talking about the greek gods? It's a bit general isn't it? I accept he may have been a saint but to be frank we don't have to give weight to every word uttered by saints. St Peter Martyr and St Bernardino said some pretty foul things which the Church distances itself from today. Likewise I'm not convinced Theophilus is that significant in the west and clearly he didn't use the word "homosexuality" - so what was the original word in greek? Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
The quote from Aristides about the Greek gods is frankly laughable and highly tenuous. Presumably the argument for condemning "homosexuality" is the use of the word "polluted"? If you read the rest of that sources is says that the quote should not be seen as condemning same-sex sexual acts. Again, please provide some supporting evidence that Aristides was influential in shaping Catholic thought around homosexuality. And if it's strong enough then we'll put it in.
2) I'm a little confused about drawing a parallel with raining cats and dogs but let's put that to one side. Pederasty is not the "usual" translation of this words - there are lots of very different words in fact if you do the research. And if you look back through discussion on the talk page then you'll come to a fair few of them. We gain nothing from trying to over-simplify this to push a particular narrative or point of view. It's very highly nuanced. You also jumping to conclusions that the Didache meant sex when it speaks about "corrupting boys"! Don't view second century texts through the prism of the 21st century. You might be right, you might be wrong. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
I stand by my assessment that this qualifies as of mid-importance on the Wiki:Catholic project group (of which, incidentally, I remain a member). Its worth checking what other articles are assessed as mid-importance. They include Holy Face of Lucca and the Knights of Colombus. Fairly minor issues in the global scheme of things. Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
{od}I have given my reasons, you have given your reasons, let a neutral third party change it. Marauder40 ( talk) 10:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Just because someone wrote about homosexuality doesn't make the person a "notable gay/bi Catholic". Many of the people you added to this section, even the article about the person says the issues is debated on whether they are or aren't gay (i.e. Ludgwig II, Henry Benedict Stuart). Also the reliable sources you used at times only attested to why they were notable, not the fact that they definitely were gay/bi. If it isn't certain the person was gay/bi then they shouldn't be added to this article as if they definitely are gay/bi. Marauder40 ( talk) 12:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that if you read it in context it says, "However, as his own frank (and I believe honest) notebooks show, sexual intimacy with men was acceptable when a reward ("fortune") was offered. In other words, Nikinky had sex with both men and women. He was bisexual." If you use this definition of bisexual, you would have to declare every "gay for pay" porn star out there bisexual. I doubt any reputable psychologist out there would agree with that definition. Is this one source valid for declaring that a fact without any disclaimer otherwise? Even his wife said he wasn't. I don't think so. But this is just one example, there are more blatant examples of situations where there is doubt, especially among the people that lived in earlier times. Marauder40 ( talk) 20:45, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
@ Contaldo80: are you planning to pick this up again? Perhaps if we did it one or two at a time. Who would you like to start with? – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians, While I respect the editors involved in creation of this section, and their efforts in improving the Encyclopedia, greatly, on review of the material contained it would seem to be WP:UNDUE to include this level of detail and this comprehensive a list in this article. Persons who are homosexual, lesbian or bisexual and also Catholic would be necessarily affected by the church's stance on sexuality, but a comprehensive list of such persons, however notable, does not seem germane to the topic itself.
In addition, a number of the persons listed here are only coincidentally Catholic, not notably so; and the sexuality of a number of the persons listed is presented as a matter of speculation in the articles on those persons. If we are to include persons in a list such as this they should be presented per the consensus at their main Article pages.
I suggest splitting this list to a separate, list-only Article. Thoughts? - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 04:43, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Integrityandhonesty: the statement by the church that they oppose "unjust" discrimination cannot magically erase multiple instances of the Holy See, bishops' conferences, etc. campaigning against antidiscrimination laws and policies. We must reflect what reliable sources say and cannot remove information simply because a user wishes it wasn't true. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Like you - there is no desire for "magic or wishful thinking". What is being shared is what the RC as a body actually and officially holds to on the subject of same-sex attraction, relationships and marriage and why. With that, like any global institution, the RC has global sized challenges to contest with: multiple cultures, laws, languages and forms of civil governance. Like any global sized body you will find these influences manifest in multiple and varying ways. Not all of them genuinely reflect its theology, philosophy, etc.
Those who profess to be Catholic that fail in this [and agreed there are many] will suffer in the long run and will face the consequences in one form or another. Such as those who support capital punishment in this regard, or unjust discrimination, such as, being refused service at a private commercial enterprise, housing, health care, imposed social separation and so on. In some cases cited here we're dealing more with indigenous cultural mores that have been in place for over a thousand years in some instances than with Catholic theology and philosophy. To the extent these cultural mores are out of line is the extent to which they should be addressed and denounced.
This Article is titled: Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism. The lead should reflect the actual official documents, catechism and pedagogy of the RC - not - selective quotes from a handful from an RS that are out of line with this - or support one political objective in favor of another. Clearly, many do not hold to what the RC does on this subject. And, many who see discrimination in this will never agree, such as, what is marriage, or what is moral and ethical in human sexual relations. What can be found in common is supporting the human dignity of all wether there is agreement or not. It is less than neutral to select a handful [sometimes sorely lacking context] and then apply it to the whole while strongly implying the whole supports discrimination in this. The placing of polemics of this kind in the lead in not a neutral stance. It taints the entire Article in a false light by separating it from the complexity of its context. Not that these points should not be addressed and pointed to - they should be - but to imply - because you do not agree - that what it [the RC] holds to regarding this is ipso facto discrimination is not fully a neutral stance. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 18:07, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
A verifiable RS does not of necessity mean object facts are presented free of bias. And, more directly, that an editors interpretation of the content of an RS is wholly objective. It simply means its verifiable and a reliable source of information. Nor, does an RS or an editor have an irrefutable claim as to what is truth, or their interpretation is the only valid position pre se, simply because its published in the mainstream, especially, on a topic such as this.
The original point is the lead sets the tone of an Article and should reflect its title. Since it's primarily addressing the philosophy and theology of Roman Catholicism with regard to same-sex attraction, relationships, etc. it should reflect fully its officially proclaimed understanding as a universal body first and foremost so what proceeds is seen in that light. As it stands, it's very superficial and very lacking being reduced to a handful of sentences.
In no manner can this be seen as proper protocol in any encyclopedia. If corrected, when someone speaks in contradiction to this it can be discerned as such regardless of a persons status in the Roman Catholic Church or others who desire, or are motivated, to present it through the prism of their POV, world view or bias backed by a string of verifiable RS's to support attempts at selective editing or offering a subjective interpretation of the content of an RS.
If we desire to offer critique of this position in detail? It is wiser to create a new section to the article such as: Criticism of . . . . or Opposition to . . . " To a large degree this exists already, but somewhat ad hoc.
In this way, when there are clear statements in contradiction to its universal publicly proclaimed theology and philosophy reflected in its official universal documents it will be clear enough. Or, when "spin slips in" in either direction it should be addressed to retain neutrality. When world views are divergent it's a challenge. In this there is no doubt and it's understood. This does not mean editors can not work together while offering one another due respect to improve an article.
It is not in the spirit of Wikipedia on such a controversial subject to imply in a lead the words and actions of a few reflect the whole, thereby, setting the tone of the whole Article in this way. This should be made clear. By the whole - in this instance - is to mean critically where the RCC stands universally and officially; this is particularly a concern when it's taken out of this proper context.
There is never going to be agreement on what is marriage between the RCC and others. This is more directly personally wishing what is to be true. Many see as discrimination in itself by the RCC as to where it stands on this topic; again, as ipso facto. This will never change. What is possible is to offer due respect to varying POV's and focus on what is possible to maintain neutrality and avoid political intrigue and/or simply offering a subjective personal opinion as an edit Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 18:07, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
18:31, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
This Fall there will be an historical Synod on Family on par with Vatican II in its significance. Among the topics are same-sex attraction, marriage and so on. By all means injustice should be brought to light and addressed in the Article such as the positive inhumanity of capital punishment in this regard, or Civil Laws that attempt to relegate those with same-sex attraction to second class citizens and so on; or are tolerant of bigotry, hatred or violence towards those with same-sex attraction. Now, how this relates to marriage is complex. But, where there is ignorance and injustice in the RCC on this very important topic should be fully exposed. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 19:53, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
a) It would be a fundamental mistake - if - that is what I meant. By stating "the lead should reflect"? The intention was not in the sense of an editor's interpretation or "reflection" upon a primary source or sources, but rather, inclusion of actual text of a primary source. In this instance, the official universal documents, catechism, etc. of the RCC on this topic. So my words did not fully express clearly what was intended. And so, I understand the confusion.
On that point, what is being said - perhaps more clearly - is the source document(s) relevant to the topic of the Article should be quoted and cited in the lead as summarily as is reasonable in a manner concordant to the content of the body of the Article in a comprehensive way. This is what is being put forward.
As it stands, it [the lead] is so minimal as to directly quoting source documents of the RCC - literally a few sentences - the lead does not actually offer a comprehensive summary of the body as it relates to the RCC. This is the thrust of what is being said.
b) As to inclusion of a summary directly quoting the Compendium in the lead on marriage? It's difficult imagine a more concise summary than a compilation of the relevant portions of the Compendium on this topic, which is quoted directly, free of interpretation or reflection that ties the lead to the body. What was added were four short and concise sentences directly quoting the source document itself and no more. Further, they were added to the paragraph speaking to marriage because the quotes of the Compendium referenced discuss marriage as does the body.
Regarding the first portion. It speaks to marriage as the Church understands it, which the body does as well, and is wholly relevant to the Article itself.
Now, some may not agree what the document has to say on this - but this is a direct quote of an official document of the RCC on the topic and adds substance to comprehension of the body. Not agreeing with a source document is not sufficient reason or cause to omit it. No one is interested in a "little edit war". I will reinstate what was added. If we cannot come to a reasonable compromise or agree ? Then we should seek third party arbitration on the matter. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 23:26, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that edit other than - perhaps - what it states based on your POV bias, or legitimately, its scope and length. This too is becoming somewhat evident. Very sad and disturbing if true.
Through this entire dialogue there was not a single offer or hint at compromise regarding this edit, a suggestion of how this legitimate RS citation could be included and so on. This is what exposes the nature of what seems to be happening. If it continues ? It should rightly be brought to the attention of administrators. The edit will be modified per our discussion. Nevertheless, it has a legitimate place to be included in the lead at some level. It serves the reader well to offer comprehensive context in a concise fashion. Short of this? Something else other than legitimate editing is taking place and very saddening.
Censorship, steering, and ownership is not what should be taking place here consensus or not. Censorship, steering and owning by consensus is still censorship, steering and ownership. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 03:24, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
What you put forward is bordering on weaseling. General statements of no substance. Without analysis? You mean your interpretation seen through the prism of your POV bias? The edit is a direct quote free of "analysis". What could be more direct and objective , or do you prefer - what, exactly ? This is truly sad. It is wholly out the spirit of neutrality causing readers to be denied legitimate information from an legitimate RS in full compliance with guidelines. Not agreeing with an RS is not justification of omission. My question and challenge still stands. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 17:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
The legitimacy of portions of the Article is now challenged, specifically, the second paragraph of the lead. There appears to be a handful of editors who are attempting to steer and own this paragraph, and perhaps the Article itself, and are engaging in a form of censorship bias by subjectively and arbitrarily applying policy and guidelines regarding a lead. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 17:18, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Attempts at censorship, steering and ownership is a serious matter. What is taking place in this instance is just very sad indeed. There is positively no violation of guidelines or policy in that edit - whatsoever - and wholly relevant and in compliance.
What we have here is an apparent attempt at "thought policing" by denying readers access to legitimate information using an RS and citation. Wholesale reverts while offering no suggestions at compromise or truly specific and substantive critique is what exposes this. So far the only legitimate offering was in reference to the first sentence of the original edit [which was removed] with the remainder added back; only to see the edit reverted again wholesale without explaining why.
Here in the United States we place a high value on free speech and fair play. What is happening here in this case falls woefully short of that. It has all the hallmarks of an attempt to censor a legitimate voice that is fully in compliance. It is being "called out". That's what is being said. It appears it will remain so. And, its a shame. At least it is on the record. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 10:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
As for theology? The Article is about - in large measure but not wholly - the RCC and its doctrine as it relates to homosexuality. How do we separate a religious institution and its doctrine from theology? It is the very bedrock from which all things flow from it. It's akin to discussing the former Soviet Union separated from the theories of Marxism. It will make for an incomprehensible Article open to steering toward a bias, thereby, neutrality is lost. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 11:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
But, I accept the notion that what is currently in the lead on marriage is minimally sufficient. To simply say, however, the Catholic Church teaches marriage can only be between a man and a woman with no concise offering as to why this is so is not much different than saying it teaches a clear sky is blue with no offering why it says its blue. It is very lacking.
Three short sentences to offer meaningful insight and comprehension in its proper context from an RS with a valid citation is helpful and beneficial to readers. Beyond this, we're dealing with subjectivity and a conscience decision to omit valid information.
With that, when a topic in a lead is specifically put forward in the second paragraph it implies high importance and germane to the Article. It should then be addressed in the body. There is no section on marriage. And, from what I read, there is no discussion of it - at all - in a direct comprehensive sense. Why is this?
If so, then this portion of the paragraph should be removed [not that I advocate this] because its not directly discussed in the body comprehensively. Or, a section should be added. Its one or the other by objective Wikipedia guidelines. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 12:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Contaldo80 - As an aside, and to your points - all my edits are in my log-in username and signed. Hope I'm not putting words in your mouth - at least - that's not the intention. I said ," I accept the notion. ", which are clearly my own words. That is, the idea that what is there [ the 2nd paragraph of the lead] is minimally sufficient. I did not state you said this.
I'm accepting the boarder point made by you and others regarding the lead. Though I think what is there [the 2nd paragraph of the lead] is sorely lacking. So, I hope this addresses your concerns.
As stated, a few short concise sentences does not seem very long to me, and perhaps to others. It being "boring" is your take and you're entitled to see it that way of course. Beyond these ancillary points and the lead question is resolved for the moment - where in the body of the Article are we seeing a comprehensive addressing of the RCC as to marriage, as they specifically relate to homosexuality and marriage which specifically connects the content of the lead with the body. Please show us this.
There is an over-abundance about the politics of this topic [same-sex attraction & marriage]; support and opposition in the section titled "Campaign against same-sex marriage and civil unions", with a spattering, ad hoc and disjointed exhortation, etc. What about why the RCC sees same-sex marriage in a certain light beyond the hyper-simplistic "one man one woman" and "natural law" ?
There is more there than "theology" as one editor pointed out. A new section would address this well and its content in the lead requires it.
So, the point being made is: the lead introduces the topic in the second paragraph yet it does not cover it in the body directly and comprehensively i.e., marriage. Therefore, there should be a section covering this in a concise and comprehensive way connecting the content of the lead to the body.
If this is genuinely an Article about Roman Catholicism and Homosexuality? What the RCC holds to as to same-sex marriage should be expressed comprehensively and not abridged to the point of slogans and four word phrases condensed into literally two sentences in the entire Article. Unless of course the point of all this is to place the RCC in the most unfavorable light possible.
Since its given high priority in the lead? Does this not make sense and the very spirit of neutrality and the guidelines ? Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 14:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Anyhow, we're here to discuss facts and to improve an Article. The Article content you point to Contaldo80 is not at all a comprehensive exhortation of the understanding of same-sex marriage and marriage as it relates to homosexuality as the RCC holds to. It's a pastoral response to legislation introduced in Civil Law regarding same-sex marriage to bishops. It contains portions as it relates to marriage. And, what is there in the Article of this document is "cherry picked". Worse - the document itself is not linked so readers can see for themselves what it says and in its proper context. This can be easily addressed as demonstrated here: Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition of Unions Between Homosexual Persons.But, there is a whole lot of commentary and "interpretation" going on there. That can be okay - but it is what it is.
As an aside - those types of documents are not dogma or doctrine by the way. Catholics and its clergy are not bound by them outside dogma or doctrine. They are guidelines from one body of the RCC sharing what they understand is the proper course on a particular issue and why. Maybe you learned something today.
As to the marriage issue. Not suggesting a new section of so great detail and length that it would all but call for a separate Article. We have here sections on numerous topics. Why not one which straightforwardly explains how the RCC understands marriage?
The Article on Marriage that is suggested is very broad. It covers the full history of marriage as it relates to virtually every perspective from religious [of multiple faith traditions] to secular. There is no reference to it in this Article as well. Readers would have to "dig" to find the RCC understanding in that Article while being commingled with others. And, the vast majority of readers will not bother. Why would we place an obstacle in the way? A new section, a paragraph or two, and we're done. Simple.
This Article is very specific as to the RCC. It only stands to reason that its understanding of marriage be specifically addressed comprehensively.
This Article is about Homosexuality and the RCC - at least - ostensibly. The Article introduces marriage in the lead. Would it not benefit the reader to see what it holds to about marriage and same-sex marriage in a fully comprehensible fashion - not mere bullet-point sentences that offer very little insight that are dolled out in bits and pieces and peppered here and there outside the context of what it understands as marriage fully? Given the importance this Article stresses on marriage its compelled to do so. Short of this, context suffers greatly and neutrality is substantially compromised for lack of context and material omission. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 11:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Marauder - thank you for reminding us why we are here and how we should interact as editors presuming good faith.
In spite of our wavering several very sound ideas and suggestions seemed to have emerged from a number of editors. Allow me offer some suggestions that may allow us to get past this impasse and please offer your feed back.
a) In the section "Campaign against same-sex marriage and civil unions" - we link the document "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition of Unions Between Homosexual Persons" to the source document so readers can access it to read and reference themselves.
b) In the second paragraph of the lead we can "wikilink" the Article Marriage (Catholic Church) into an agreed phrase, such as, "The Catholic Church holds marriage is [or only can be] . . . . wherein, the word marriage is linked to the Article Contaldo80 pointed to.
These improvements will allow readers to "go deep" in a manner that does not present an obstacle and to learn free of "interpretation", or bias commentary.
This may be the start of us coming to a consensus that offers a genuine compromise we'll all feel results in an improvement of the Article and make this effort worth the energy we have spent on this. Integrityandhonesty ( talk) 01:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The second main section is titled "History of the Catholic Church and Homosexuality". The word "homosexuality" should not be capitalized. I'd like whoever has permission to fix this. It should be completely uncontroversial. -- V2Blast ( talk) 11:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I think the Political Activity and Sackings section are getting newsy again. We should be summing this sort of thing up, not listing every incident with a quotation. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 14:44, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
@ Contaldo80: Again? Maybe you can try to condense all this? There's no encyclopedic value to these pull quotes. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:10, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
This is an extremely subjective phrase. And the sources represent a limited polling among a few countries, hardly representative of 1.2 billion Catholics. It is not in the interest of WP:NPOV to say "many" or "some" or "a few" or "a whole bunch" or "tons and tons", especially not with the sources we're currently looking at. My edit acknowledges the existence of the dissent, and for hard numbers, the reader only needs to look at the corresponding section in the same article. It is not far. Let's banish subjectivity from this prominent place it currently has, in the interest of neutrality. Elizium23 ( talk) 01:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry but this is just ridiculous. Although it is true that in the first world those raised Catholic who apostasised, agnostics, cafeteria Catholics, and a couple of regular attendees dissent from church teachings. This is in no way more numerous then the rest of the liberal population. The Netherlands was the first country to legalise gay marriage and it was traditionally Protestant and had become one of the most Atheist countries in the world. The Protestants there even bless same sex marriages. The Remonstrants being the first church to ever do so. England was also very early in the game with many Anglicans and Atheists supporting gay marriage. There was never any notable opposition, from agnostics or liberals. A great number of Anglicans who opposed gay marriage actually became Catholic.
In Sweden those Lutherans who opposed liberalism often became Catholic. Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, Norway, and Iceland all had little Catholics and legalized gay marriage with ease. In Belgium and Spain gay marriage was legalized by the socialist parties who are largely voted for by he irreligious. Ireland has only recently legalized gay marriage under outside pressure, with a lot of support coming from the youth, the Presbyterians and the Church of Ireland. 38 % voted against and about that many Irish regularly attend mass. Catholics are more devout in Northern Ireland where it is still not allowed. There is no Protestant or largely secular country in Europe where gay marriage was not legalized. Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Italy, Austria, Lithaunia, Slovakia, all are yet to legalise it. Even Germany and Switzerland now have more Catholics then Protestants. 83.128.175.68 ( talk) 13:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
In the USA Unitarians have supported homosexuality for decades. Episcopalians bless gay marriages, so do various Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Reformed Churches, all branches of Judaism except Orthodox Judaism. The strongest Protestant opposition comes from the full evangelicals. Also Atheists, agnostics, and liberals are even more supportive. Various Protestants became Catholic because they found their churches to liberal. This also happened in England with countless Anglicans converting, which also happened in Australia, and the USA itself.
Also Argentina is well known for being one of the more liberal countries in South America, and many Catholics aren`t committed. Only about 20 % is practicing. This is far different from Chile where the church has more influence in society and politics. Or Colombia where most people oppose it. Urugay and Brazil are the only other 2 countries to legalise gay marriage, and the former is the most Atheist of all Latin American countries and the latter has one of the largest Protestant majorities. Gay marriage has been completely rejected in Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguy, and Ecuador. The same applies to Dominica, Panama, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Honduras, and so on.
Also most Mexican states do not aknowledge gay marriage and it is far from being legalized there. Also these polls are often highly disputed, and often come from very anti-Catholic circles. In fact one of them mentions the church itself disputed the claims. 83.128.175.68 ( talk) 10:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
An IP has started edit-warring to remove well sourced text because of biased anti catholic sources? (83.128.175.68). (I have warned them). Their edit summary refers to the discussion on Talk page, which doesn't exist, so here is an opportunity for the IP to explain why the UNHCR is an anti catholic source ... - Roxy the dog™ ( Resonate) 12:26, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Well I has been strongly accused of Liberal bias, and here are some things hat contradict these claims:
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/if-we-dont-care-gay-marriage-will-pass
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/poll-shows-regular-mass-attendants-oppose-gay-marriage/
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen2/15b/Ireland-marriage-vote/result-analysis.html
This deserves to be heard also. 83.128.175.68 ( talk) 15:57, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
' Again there should be balance. The Catholic side is often silenced in the media the way Jews were in the thirties. So your standards put the Catholic faith at a disadvantage. John Cornwell published a bigoted book full of lies but he just got in the media more who repeated his falsehoods.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/13/figure-that-98-of-catholic-women-use-birth-control-debunked/
83.128.175.68 ( talk) 13:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
GSS data
Is this worthy of inclusion as a ref? -- Callinus ( talk) 14:18, 8 August 2015 (UTC
I want to try and get this article up to Good Article status. But not sure how I need to go about it and who might help. Anyone any advice? Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
(to Cardinal Hume's letter) is a dead link! 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 15:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Done Thanks! – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 16:00, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
While I'm a believer in keeping close to sources, I'm also a believer in ensuring we make articles clear to a reader. The Bishop of Hong Kong may have said in his letter that parishioners should "consider candidates' and their parties' stance on family and marriage issues" but what he means is voters should vote against candidates that promote LGBT issues such as gay marriage and discrimination provisions. As those are things that he has consistently opposed. And that position is cosnsistent with the wider points made in the source itself. He isn't saying that they should find pro-LGBT candidates and vote in favour of their policies is he? Let's say what is meant clearly and unambiguosly. Long-time followers of announcements and speeches from Catholic prelates on gay issues will be familiar with rhetoric that sounds like it is vague and woolly and means no harm to anyone, but does in fact contain a specific message. I want articles to be direct, transparent and open - rather than obfuscatory. This does no one any favours and is somewhat dishonest. Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
"In his latest letter, Tong wrote: "In recent years, extreme liberalism, individualism, sexual liberation and gay rights movement [activists] … advocated that Hong Kong should introduce a sexual orientation discrimination ordinance and recognise same-sex marriage. This has shaken our society to its core." The SODO has been debated in Hong Kong for nearly twenty years and the proposal (rejected recently by lawmakers) is to introduce non-discrimination provisions related to employment/ services on the grounds of sexual orientation in order to bring this group into line with gender, ethnicity, and disability. The following links provide further information:
It's also worth noting that the Catholic Church has consistently opposed the introduction of legidlation by governments on the grounds of sexual orientation (there is a section on this in the wikipedia article), and indeed continues to state that there are areas where such discrimination is legitimate (for example teaching). I appreciate some editors may be drawn towards a "damage limitation exercise" but this article really isn't the place for it. Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Donner60 - you reverted edits by Tiffanynicolina on the grounds of "Addition of negative unsourced content to a biographical article". The statement was sourced. But what annoys me is that you've described it as "negative". There is nothing negative about suggesting someone is gay. I personally agree that the statement is poorly sourced and speculative and violates BLP. But be clear to keep it out on those grounds without judgements on sexual orientation. Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:45, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
The following sentence is highly POV:
This is clearly POV, coming specifically from the LGBTQA+ movement's perspective.
The final parenthesis is also problematic in light of paragraph 2358 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
tl;dr: The above-quoted sentence from the intro needs to be revised so as not to be POV pro-LGBT movement. Crusadestudent ( talk) 03:27, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Since a discussion of this type is going on over here, I figured it would be a good place to mention that there is a similar terminology discussion going on at the Courage International page in relationship to usage of the terms "gay" vs. "same-sex attraction" vs. other terms. Marauder40 ( talk) 12:45, 10 May 2016 (UTC)