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It occured to me that certain Catholics have at times accused Protestants of "ecclesial deism," referring to the Church invisible. This is interesting, even more so because historically, Catholic apologists have blamed the Reformation/Protestantism for deism and/or unitarianism. In other words, (some) Catholics would like to think of their church as less deist than the alternatives. My speculation is this is a reaction-formation to the role Catholics played in the history of deism. (Unfortunately, I don't think there ware sources for that.)
Historically, a major cause of deism in Catholic areas is from crypto-Judaism and crypto-Islam in areas where they were outlawed. A pretty much secular Jew/Muslim could fit well into Christian society and is also close to deism already. Of course I am thinking of Baruch Spinoza. In other words, just because Jews/Muslims were outlawed didn't make them all go away. Rather, the ones that remained were incentivised to fit in. Their ideas remained and became part of the melting pot. There already sources documenting the link between Protestantism and Islam, but it would take some more research to find sources to document the Jewish/Islamic influence on Catholic pre-deist humanism (such as with Johann Reuchlin, although he seems to have influenced Protestants more than Catholics) and also on deism proper.
Earlier than this, there is the pagan concept of a Uranus (Roman) or an El (Canaanite) deity who is all powerful, yet uninvolved. As pagans were outlawed earlier than Jews/Muslims, this would provide another group of people who influenced the development of Western Christianity from within, yet were converted by force rather than arguments (allowing the older ideas to survive more strongly). The link with Catholicism could be the humanists--the question is whether any of the philosophical works carried the idea of this sort of creator god to the Renaissance era. As deism is a form of hellenized thought, the role of Catholicism in preserving hellenization against Jewish/Muslim/Protestant de-hellenizing influences is how Catholicism fostered deism.
The link with Catholicism is as follows:
-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 16:47, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
The Jewish encyclopedia describes the role of Moses Mendelssohn and also notes this
The relations of deism to Judaism, however, have not been made the subject of systematic inquiry, though non-Jewish controversial writers have often argued that Judaism, positing a transcendental God, virtually stood for deism. This contention must be allowed if deism connotes anti-Trinitarianism. Judaism has always been rigorously Unitarian. Deism, as the denial of original sin and the soteriology built thereon, also harmonizes with Jewish doctrine. But the doctrine of deism which relegates God, after creation, to the passive rüle of a disinterested spectator, is antipodal to the teachings of Judaism.
But the history of Averroeism culminates at the University of Padua. It appears there first a.s a kind of free belief, embraced chiefly by physicians and men devoted to natural studies. From being in disgrace with the Cliurch, it comes into favour. It tli^-n provokes opposition both from the side of philosophy and orthodox theology. It mingles its influence with the revival of letters, and then disappears as the morning star before the sun. Plato comes back and Scholasticism vanishes. Aristotle is read in Greek and his Ai'abian commentator seeks the shade. Cardinal Bembo celebrates in verse the great event. The morning dawns and the shadows flee away. Nearly all the great men of the Universities both of Padua and Florence in the time of the revival are called Averroeists; but this only in a very wide sense. They all exhibit in some way the influence of philosophy in its cont-act with the new direction which had been given to the physical sciences. They are all either metaphysicians or naturalists or both combined.
The words “deism” and “deist” appear first about the middle of the 16th century in France (cf. Bayle’s Dictionnaire, s.v. “Viret,” note D), though the deistic standpoint had already been foreshadowed to some extent by Averroists, by Italian authors like Boccaccio and Petrarch, in More’s Utopia (1515), and by French writers like Montaigne, Charron and Bodin. The first specific attack on deism in English was Bishop Stillingfleet’s Letter to a Deist (1677). By the majority of those historically known as the English deists, from Blount onwards, the name was owned and honoured.
@ Manannan67: Confused by some of your edits here. Don’t you think the article ought describe in its introduction what the Church has traditionally taught as to Deism? At least a line? Hyperbolick ( talk) 22:08, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Catholicism and Pandeism should be merged here as pandeism is derived from Deism and much of the information duplicates that which is here. Manannan67 ( talk) 18:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Pantheism and Pandeism are subtly different.": that's exactly the problem here, and why I think and inclusion criteria based on mere usages of the string p-a-n-d-e-i-s-m is problematic, especially in such old sources. The word in question is one that appears to have been easy to independently re-coin as a neologism with variant meanings, which is clearly shown with Bolton and Rushdoony. It's even shown by the Lazarus and Steinthal quotes in the main pandiesm article, which frankly looks like pure wordplay. Given this problem, I think you need strong sources that explicitly connect a particular archaic usages to your more-modern pandeism concept. - GretLomborg ( talk) 15:35, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Once again you've proved my point. Nannetti, Kresta, and Powell are all in the Pandeism article (and still there), but this is the Talk page for Deism. It seems you've mixed them up. Clearly it would be much easier for all concerned to put them together. Manannan67 ( talk) 02:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
So far that's five. Manannan67 ( talk) 04:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC) Aveling's discourse is a broad historical overview rather than a critical analysis, as is to be expected fr a professor of psychology. Polemics are not his stock in trade. As for being 'specific in asserting Deism is wrong", what he said was it was "for the most part out-of-date, commonplace, and dull." Manannan67 ( talk) 04:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Done. In as much as there is an actual encyclical that mentions Deism, I have no issue with alluding to Deism and the Catholic Church; but for the sake of consistency how would you feel about reversing the title to "Deism and the Catholic Church"? I think it puts the focus rightfully on Deism, where as the Church has taken positions on all sorts of ideas (modernism, indifferentism, materialism, etc., etc.) Manannan67 ( talk) 20:45, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
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It occured to me that certain Catholics have at times accused Protestants of "ecclesial deism," referring to the Church invisible. This is interesting, even more so because historically, Catholic apologists have blamed the Reformation/Protestantism for deism and/or unitarianism. In other words, (some) Catholics would like to think of their church as less deist than the alternatives. My speculation is this is a reaction-formation to the role Catholics played in the history of deism. (Unfortunately, I don't think there ware sources for that.)
Historically, a major cause of deism in Catholic areas is from crypto-Judaism and crypto-Islam in areas where they were outlawed. A pretty much secular Jew/Muslim could fit well into Christian society and is also close to deism already. Of course I am thinking of Baruch Spinoza. In other words, just because Jews/Muslims were outlawed didn't make them all go away. Rather, the ones that remained were incentivised to fit in. Their ideas remained and became part of the melting pot. There already sources documenting the link between Protestantism and Islam, but it would take some more research to find sources to document the Jewish/Islamic influence on Catholic pre-deist humanism (such as with Johann Reuchlin, although he seems to have influenced Protestants more than Catholics) and also on deism proper.
Earlier than this, there is the pagan concept of a Uranus (Roman) or an El (Canaanite) deity who is all powerful, yet uninvolved. As pagans were outlawed earlier than Jews/Muslims, this would provide another group of people who influenced the development of Western Christianity from within, yet were converted by force rather than arguments (allowing the older ideas to survive more strongly). The link with Catholicism could be the humanists--the question is whether any of the philosophical works carried the idea of this sort of creator god to the Renaissance era. As deism is a form of hellenized thought, the role of Catholicism in preserving hellenization against Jewish/Muslim/Protestant de-hellenizing influences is how Catholicism fostered deism.
The link with Catholicism is as follows:
-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 16:47, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
The Jewish encyclopedia describes the role of Moses Mendelssohn and also notes this
The relations of deism to Judaism, however, have not been made the subject of systematic inquiry, though non-Jewish controversial writers have often argued that Judaism, positing a transcendental God, virtually stood for deism. This contention must be allowed if deism connotes anti-Trinitarianism. Judaism has always been rigorously Unitarian. Deism, as the denial of original sin and the soteriology built thereon, also harmonizes with Jewish doctrine. But the doctrine of deism which relegates God, after creation, to the passive rüle of a disinterested spectator, is antipodal to the teachings of Judaism.
But the history of Averroeism culminates at the University of Padua. It appears there first a.s a kind of free belief, embraced chiefly by physicians and men devoted to natural studies. From being in disgrace with the Cliurch, it comes into favour. It tli^-n provokes opposition both from the side of philosophy and orthodox theology. It mingles its influence with the revival of letters, and then disappears as the morning star before the sun. Plato comes back and Scholasticism vanishes. Aristotle is read in Greek and his Ai'abian commentator seeks the shade. Cardinal Bembo celebrates in verse the great event. The morning dawns and the shadows flee away. Nearly all the great men of the Universities both of Padua and Florence in the time of the revival are called Averroeists; but this only in a very wide sense. They all exhibit in some way the influence of philosophy in its cont-act with the new direction which had been given to the physical sciences. They are all either metaphysicians or naturalists or both combined.
The words “deism” and “deist” appear first about the middle of the 16th century in France (cf. Bayle’s Dictionnaire, s.v. “Viret,” note D), though the deistic standpoint had already been foreshadowed to some extent by Averroists, by Italian authors like Boccaccio and Petrarch, in More’s Utopia (1515), and by French writers like Montaigne, Charron and Bodin. The first specific attack on deism in English was Bishop Stillingfleet’s Letter to a Deist (1677). By the majority of those historically known as the English deists, from Blount onwards, the name was owned and honoured.
@ Manannan67: Confused by some of your edits here. Don’t you think the article ought describe in its introduction what the Church has traditionally taught as to Deism? At least a line? Hyperbolick ( talk) 22:08, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Catholicism and Pandeism should be merged here as pandeism is derived from Deism and much of the information duplicates that which is here. Manannan67 ( talk) 18:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Pantheism and Pandeism are subtly different.": that's exactly the problem here, and why I think and inclusion criteria based on mere usages of the string p-a-n-d-e-i-s-m is problematic, especially in such old sources. The word in question is one that appears to have been easy to independently re-coin as a neologism with variant meanings, which is clearly shown with Bolton and Rushdoony. It's even shown by the Lazarus and Steinthal quotes in the main pandiesm article, which frankly looks like pure wordplay. Given this problem, I think you need strong sources that explicitly connect a particular archaic usages to your more-modern pandeism concept. - GretLomborg ( talk) 15:35, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Once again you've proved my point. Nannetti, Kresta, and Powell are all in the Pandeism article (and still there), but this is the Talk page for Deism. It seems you've mixed them up. Clearly it would be much easier for all concerned to put them together. Manannan67 ( talk) 02:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
So far that's five. Manannan67 ( talk) 04:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC) Aveling's discourse is a broad historical overview rather than a critical analysis, as is to be expected fr a professor of psychology. Polemics are not his stock in trade. As for being 'specific in asserting Deism is wrong", what he said was it was "for the most part out-of-date, commonplace, and dull." Manannan67 ( talk) 04:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
Done. In as much as there is an actual encyclical that mentions Deism, I have no issue with alluding to Deism and the Catholic Church; but for the sake of consistency how would you feel about reversing the title to "Deism and the Catholic Church"? I think it puts the focus rightfully on Deism, where as the Church has taken positions on all sorts of ideas (modernism, indifferentism, materialism, etc., etc.) Manannan67 ( talk) 20:45, 18 July 2019 (UTC)