This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I do not think it right to place the Roman Catholic Church in a category called "opposition to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual rights, especially since the word "rights" in the title of the category may be understood as expressing a point of view. Placing the article in such a category seems therefore less excusable than placing it in a category such as "opposition to polygamy", "opposition to divorce", etc. Even such categories might be inappropriate, but at least they would be expressed in unquestionably objective terms. I leave it to someone else - if someone else agrees with me - to revert Xavier the Great's 20:58, 30 April 2006 placing of the article in this category. Lima 07:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. -- WikiCats 07:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. Contrafool 09:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
In this case I don't think "rights" is the correct word. In the cases being examined here, rights is a legal term. Under canon law, those who are gay/lesbian have the same rights as others. There is no difference with respect to any right the Churh understands any member of the faithful to possess. That being said, all rights are subject to law, and therefore can never be exercised in absolute freedom. Again, this would apply to all. Most people generally focus on the right of marriage. Marriage is a right of all members of the faithful. However, the DEFINITION of marriage includes a permanent union between a man and a woman. Therefore, it is impossible by definition for two men (or two women) to marry. This is not a denial of a right, but rather the recognition of a Italic textsine qua nonItalic text within marriage itself. DaveTroy 19:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the question of whether or not the Roman Catholic Church opposes LGBT rights comes down to whether the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church supports or opposes changes in civil law granting rights to homosexual, bisexual and transgendered persons. In this sense, the Roman Catholic Church most definitely opposes LGBT rights, and belongs in that category. I do believe the "LGBT rights" term is mildly POV, but as a new user I won't attempt to rock the boat on that one. Svend la Rose 03:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
According to an earlier consensus on this page, there should be a quite brief reference to topics with criticisms and those criticisms should go on the articles referred to. The reason for this is that there is a long history of this page being a playground for Catholic bashing. I would like to propose that the Inquisition be referenced briefly in the history section, noting it's controversial nature with main article reference. This also brings up the fact that the History section is rather long and does not have sufficient sub sections. I would propose that it be organized into subsections each with a main article reference and that the Inquisition be one of those sections.
There are lots of issues to duke it out over, but the various controversies need not be played out on this page. Vaquero100 12:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The Anglican position on the term "Catholic Church" is recorded ad nauseam on several pages of WP, including Catholicism, Catholic, and Catholic Church (disambiguation). However, there is no place on WP that explains the origins of the term "Roman" Catholic Church or how the term is actually used in the documents of the Catholic Church, which use is minimal and marginal at best. These are facts which should be reported, it is not POV to report facts, even if others are uncomfortable with those facts. Anglicans have completely dominated the Catholic topics for at least 6-8 months. It is time to at least allow the Catholic position to be reported. JzG, if you want to do a responsible job as an editor and an administrator, you should deal with the issues one by one, actually edit rather than simply revert, and perhaps just maybe use the talk page. I know it is a novel concept, but hey if this poor stupid "papist" can play be the rules, I think you can. Vaquero100 12:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Lacrimonious, please explain FWIW. It is not familiar to me.
To answer, in part, what you have written above, the article title is currently defines WP "use." This WP use is not the use of the Catholic Church for itself. This needs to be recorded accurately. There are several inaccuracies/inadequacies in the present form:
If you will look into the history of this issue, you will see that it began in England among Anglicans, was particularly enforced by the Royal family, has its origin in slurs such as "Romish" and "papist" (slurs still in use, in fact). This did not become an issue among other denominations until after the liturgical reforms of the 1960's when others, like Lutherans, began to recite the creed every Sunday in its original form (Luther had changed "Catholic" to "Christian" in the creed). Many German Lutherans still do not use "Catholic" in the creed. "Primarily Anglican" is in fact correct, though there are others.
Please just stop talking off the top of your head and do the research. I have studied this issue thoroughly for several months. For more information, please see: User:Vaquero100/Catholic Church naming arguments.
Also note: These are several points being asserted in my version. If you would like to discuss them, then lets do that--but the discussion should be point by point and not just wholesale reverts. Use your God-given intellect and not just your knee-jerk reaction because you personally don't like it.
The points asserted:
The present version of the text has citations. Before making wholesale reverts again, please address these issues here.
Vaquero100
16:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Having a quote in the intro, as stated above, is awkward and not exactly inline with style guides. I have also voiced concern over the last sentence (and there is the "His Holiness" issue). I have come up with a proposed change to that paragraph, and would enjoy hearing opinions, and suggested changes.
-- Andrew c 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
We seem to have several conversations going simultaneously on the same subject. (To clarify, I did come to the talk page before re-adding His Holiness. And, Andrew c, you removed it before there was opportunity for discussion). Please note Andrew c, that the Catholic Church does not capitalize the marks of the Church in its modern conciliar documents or in the creed. Please do not sneak in the capitalization. This has already been discussed before. The proper name of Lumen Gentium in English is the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church in the Modern World. The explanation of His Holiness belongs in the pope article, not here. As your google search on Jerry Falwell demonstrated, WP does seem willing to use proper titles for clergy without regard for their literal meaning. Also, as a linked phrase His Holiness if virtually self explanatory. Also, if we are going to look back over 2 years of edits, then we should seriously move this article where it was 2 years ago, to Catholic Church. Vaquero100 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, "in the Modern World" is part of the title of Gaudium et Spes, not Lumen Gentium. Vaquero100 01:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I was reverted for putting this section in. I thought we agreed above that quotes weren't the best thing for the introduction section. And I thought that the first sentence WAS about the pope: "which is governed by the successor of Peter" — i.e. the Pope. I'll try something else out.-- Andrew c 15:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are two different definitions of the Church from other articles on wikipedia (slightly modified). Should we use either one of these, or combine them, or write something from scratch?
Any more ideas?-- Andrew c 14:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
How about this:
The Roman Catholic Church, also called the Catholic Church, is a Church made up of followers of Jesus Christ, whom they believe to be the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Catholic faith has its origin in Judaism, with Jesus Christ representing a breaking point from the perspective of the Jewish leadership at the time, as the majority of them did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. The Church professes that Christ instituted the Church in and with the Twelve Apostles and charged them to teach all nations as he had taught them.
The Catholic Church comprises the largest Christian Church in the world.[ "Major Branches of Religions". adherents.com. Retrieved 2006-07-19.] According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Church's worldwide recorded membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000, a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000.[Statistical Yearbook of the Church 2004 ( ISBN 88-209-7817-2)] As such it is the world's largest single organised body of religion. The Church is led by the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, currently Pope Benedict XVI.
Ect... 2nd Piston Honda 17:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
See the edit [ [1]]. Explain what point you were trying to make with this edit. 2nd Piston Honda 18:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Roman Catholic Church, also called the Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church in the world,[ "Major Branches of Religions". adherents.com. Retrieved 2006-07-19.] composed of twenty three particular churches in communion with the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, including those of the Western and Eastern Rite. The Church describes each Pope as the successor of Saint Peter, using the honorific title of His Holiness. Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, states that the Church is the " One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" of in the Nicene Creed, founded by Jesus for the salvation of all humanity.
The Church's worldwide membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000,[Statistical Yearbook of the Church 2004] a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000. As such it is the world's largest single organised body of religion.
There's a difference between mentioning the Pope (as in the current version) and explaining the Pope, and i don't think the intro should have any of the latter. Also, why is it important to talk about the "23 particular churches"? That's not a definition of the Church that i've EVER heard. 2nd Piston Honda 19:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
These two start with a reference to the jurisdictions and affiliations of the church body. Then we have the two articles that define the RCC as noted above. But if we don't want to mention the 23 particular churches and the 2 rites in the first sentence, maybe we could do something simpler. Also, I think we could use the 2nd sentence from Eastern Orthodoxy verbatim. Maybe something like:
-- Andrew c 21:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I am glad to see some improvements being made to the introduction. Also, this last version looks pretty good to me. A few points:
Thanks again, guys for your good work on this. Vaquero100 04:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
How about this for the whole intro?
Issues:
What else? Any comments, changes, criticism? -- Andrew c 20:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I like SynKobiety's modifications. And I agree with TSP that it is better to say "or approximately 1 in 6 of the world's population" than the exact number (which, by the way, should be very easy to “estimate” by multiplying the catholic membership.) -- Leinad ¬ »saudações! 07:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
According to canon law, members are those who have been baptized in, or have been received into, the Catholic Church on making a profession of faith, provided they have not formally renounced membership.
Worldwide, the Church is divided into jurisdictional areas, usually on a territorial basis. The standard territorial unit is called, in the Latin Rite, a diocese, and in the Eastern Rites, an eparchy, and is headed by a bishop or an eparch. For other forms, see below under "The episcopate". At the end of 2004, the total number of all these jurisdictional areas or sees was 2755 ( Annuario Pontificio 2005).
The see of Rome is seen as central, and its bishop, the Pope, is considered to be the (sole) successor of Saint Peter, the chief of the Apostles, sometimes called the "prince" (from Latin princeps, meaning "foremost", "leader") of the Apostles.
A description of the Roman Catholic Church must necessarily deal with its teaching and its internal organization. What follows is therefore based principally on its Catechism of the Catholic Church, on its two codes of law, namely the Code of Canon Law (for the Latin Rite) and the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, and on its yearbook, the Annuario Pontificio.
-- Andrew c 20:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for the input. I have imported a version into the main article. Everyones suggestions were helpful, but now everyone can have a hands on approach to editing the intro, instead of making comments and having me try to adjust the proposal accordingly. I think this is a good step in the right direct. Thanks again.-- Andrew c 20:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the problem here is the disconnect between the Catholic Church's definition of itself as "catholic and universal" vs. the perception of those Christians outside the Catholic Church and, arguably, the reality of whether or not the Catholic Church is, in fact, "catholic and universal" as it claims to be.
Consider the following text from the religious denomination article...
NB: The above text considers the Catholic Church to be a denomination.
Also consider this text from the Christian denomination article...
NB: The above text is a bit unclear. Is the Catholic Church a "major division" or a "denomination"?
Me personally, I am OK with "denomination", "branch" or "church". I'm not wedded to any particular term. What I do feel is important is that the text in this article be consonant with the usage in the two articles referenced above.
If you want to say that other Christians consider the Catholic Church to be a denomination but the Catholic Church does not consider itself to be a "denomination" because it considers itself to be the one true Church, then state both POVs. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, the Catholic Church is not the sole source of truth, even about itself. Please seek to maintain a NPOV.
-- Richard 21:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I am curious as to the use of these terms within the article. Is there an established policy here? I do know that using Christ as synonymous with Jesus is quite common in many of the (secularly produced) history books I have read (and here I emphasize that I don’t mean superficially Christian or apologetically literature). Here is an example, a quote from a well respected and recent history book on the Reformation, written by someone who describes himself as “not now personally subscribing to any form of religious dogma” (intro xxv)
This sort of thing is quite common and I could provide many texts with similar entries. I think it a worthy question to ask since the article not only uses the word Jesus frequently, but is about a Church that obviously sees the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith as one and the same. Lostcaesar 09:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a tremendous disparity between the Salvation section of the Roman Catholic Church article and the Roman Catholic section of the Salvation article that needs to be addressed.-- Antelucan 13:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The coverage of Apostolic Succession on this and other pages seems to be clearly POV in favor of the Roman Catholic Church and against the Anglican Communion and Porvoo Communion, defining apostolic succession in terms of acceptance by authorities in the Vatican. What do people think about a new section in this article discussing the importance of Apostolic Succession in the RCC specifically, and a revamp of the corresponding article generally? Svend la Rose 03:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
At present, this is what this article says about the Catholic Church's approach to the global AIDS epidemic:
Abstinence as "one of the most successful strategies against AIDS"? This claim is made on the basis of the findings of a study, the results of which can be found here, but, having read the cited article, this seems to me to be a bit of a stretch. First, obviously if people are having sex less frequently, the incidence of people contracting sexually-transmitted infections like AIDS will be reduced; however, that says nothing about the efficacy of the strategy of emphasising abstinence, that is, the strategy that has been adopted by the Catholic Church. Furthermore, Uganda is one -- tiny -- country in Africa, and everywhere else on the continent the strategy of merely promoting abstinence has failed dismally. No Sex = No AIDS is a technically valid claim, but it hasn't proven itself to be an effective strategy. My understanding of the study is that the spread of AIDS has slowed in Uganda for a number of reasons, including the availability of condoms, etc., but also because members of the younger generation now know of more people who have AIDS and thus would, understandably, be more cautious about their own sexual behaviour out of fear of contracting HIV themselves. Promoting abstinence is not slowing the spread of AIDS in Uganda; rather, it is being slowed because of education about the disease itself.
Given that any substantive changes to this article are likely to be controversial no matter what they are, I haven't yet made any myself. But I strongly think this needs to be corrected, as it looks like the facts have been warped to suit some ideological agenda. Please, some feedback on what to do about this sentence. -- Todeswalzer 00:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I do not think it right to place the Roman Catholic Church in a category called "opposition to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual rights, especially since the word "rights" in the title of the category may be understood as expressing a point of view. Placing the article in such a category seems therefore less excusable than placing it in a category such as "opposition to polygamy", "opposition to divorce", etc. Even such categories might be inappropriate, but at least they would be expressed in unquestionably objective terms. I leave it to someone else - if someone else agrees with me - to revert Xavier the Great's 20:58, 30 April 2006 placing of the article in this category. Lima 07:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. -- WikiCats 07:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. Contrafool 09:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
In this case I don't think "rights" is the correct word. In the cases being examined here, rights is a legal term. Under canon law, those who are gay/lesbian have the same rights as others. There is no difference with respect to any right the Churh understands any member of the faithful to possess. That being said, all rights are subject to law, and therefore can never be exercised in absolute freedom. Again, this would apply to all. Most people generally focus on the right of marriage. Marriage is a right of all members of the faithful. However, the DEFINITION of marriage includes a permanent union between a man and a woman. Therefore, it is impossible by definition for two men (or two women) to marry. This is not a denial of a right, but rather the recognition of a Italic textsine qua nonItalic text within marriage itself. DaveTroy 19:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the question of whether or not the Roman Catholic Church opposes LGBT rights comes down to whether the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church supports or opposes changes in civil law granting rights to homosexual, bisexual and transgendered persons. In this sense, the Roman Catholic Church most definitely opposes LGBT rights, and belongs in that category. I do believe the "LGBT rights" term is mildly POV, but as a new user I won't attempt to rock the boat on that one. Svend la Rose 03:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
According to an earlier consensus on this page, there should be a quite brief reference to topics with criticisms and those criticisms should go on the articles referred to. The reason for this is that there is a long history of this page being a playground for Catholic bashing. I would like to propose that the Inquisition be referenced briefly in the history section, noting it's controversial nature with main article reference. This also brings up the fact that the History section is rather long and does not have sufficient sub sections. I would propose that it be organized into subsections each with a main article reference and that the Inquisition be one of those sections.
There are lots of issues to duke it out over, but the various controversies need not be played out on this page. Vaquero100 12:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The Anglican position on the term "Catholic Church" is recorded ad nauseam on several pages of WP, including Catholicism, Catholic, and Catholic Church (disambiguation). However, there is no place on WP that explains the origins of the term "Roman" Catholic Church or how the term is actually used in the documents of the Catholic Church, which use is minimal and marginal at best. These are facts which should be reported, it is not POV to report facts, even if others are uncomfortable with those facts. Anglicans have completely dominated the Catholic topics for at least 6-8 months. It is time to at least allow the Catholic position to be reported. JzG, if you want to do a responsible job as an editor and an administrator, you should deal with the issues one by one, actually edit rather than simply revert, and perhaps just maybe use the talk page. I know it is a novel concept, but hey if this poor stupid "papist" can play be the rules, I think you can. Vaquero100 12:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Lacrimonious, please explain FWIW. It is not familiar to me.
To answer, in part, what you have written above, the article title is currently defines WP "use." This WP use is not the use of the Catholic Church for itself. This needs to be recorded accurately. There are several inaccuracies/inadequacies in the present form:
If you will look into the history of this issue, you will see that it began in England among Anglicans, was particularly enforced by the Royal family, has its origin in slurs such as "Romish" and "papist" (slurs still in use, in fact). This did not become an issue among other denominations until after the liturgical reforms of the 1960's when others, like Lutherans, began to recite the creed every Sunday in its original form (Luther had changed "Catholic" to "Christian" in the creed). Many German Lutherans still do not use "Catholic" in the creed. "Primarily Anglican" is in fact correct, though there are others.
Please just stop talking off the top of your head and do the research. I have studied this issue thoroughly for several months. For more information, please see: User:Vaquero100/Catholic Church naming arguments.
Also note: These are several points being asserted in my version. If you would like to discuss them, then lets do that--but the discussion should be point by point and not just wholesale reverts. Use your God-given intellect and not just your knee-jerk reaction because you personally don't like it.
The points asserted:
The present version of the text has citations. Before making wholesale reverts again, please address these issues here.
Vaquero100
16:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Having a quote in the intro, as stated above, is awkward and not exactly inline with style guides. I have also voiced concern over the last sentence (and there is the "His Holiness" issue). I have come up with a proposed change to that paragraph, and would enjoy hearing opinions, and suggested changes.
-- Andrew c 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
We seem to have several conversations going simultaneously on the same subject. (To clarify, I did come to the talk page before re-adding His Holiness. And, Andrew c, you removed it before there was opportunity for discussion). Please note Andrew c, that the Catholic Church does not capitalize the marks of the Church in its modern conciliar documents or in the creed. Please do not sneak in the capitalization. This has already been discussed before. The proper name of Lumen Gentium in English is the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church in the Modern World. The explanation of His Holiness belongs in the pope article, not here. As your google search on Jerry Falwell demonstrated, WP does seem willing to use proper titles for clergy without regard for their literal meaning. Also, as a linked phrase His Holiness if virtually self explanatory. Also, if we are going to look back over 2 years of edits, then we should seriously move this article where it was 2 years ago, to Catholic Church. Vaquero100 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, "in the Modern World" is part of the title of Gaudium et Spes, not Lumen Gentium. Vaquero100 01:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I was reverted for putting this section in. I thought we agreed above that quotes weren't the best thing for the introduction section. And I thought that the first sentence WAS about the pope: "which is governed by the successor of Peter" — i.e. the Pope. I'll try something else out.-- Andrew c 15:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Here are two different definitions of the Church from other articles on wikipedia (slightly modified). Should we use either one of these, or combine them, or write something from scratch?
Any more ideas?-- Andrew c 14:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
How about this:
The Roman Catholic Church, also called the Catholic Church, is a Church made up of followers of Jesus Christ, whom they believe to be the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Catholic faith has its origin in Judaism, with Jesus Christ representing a breaking point from the perspective of the Jewish leadership at the time, as the majority of them did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. The Church professes that Christ instituted the Church in and with the Twelve Apostles and charged them to teach all nations as he had taught them.
The Catholic Church comprises the largest Christian Church in the world.[ "Major Branches of Religions". adherents.com. Retrieved 2006-07-19.] According to the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the Church's worldwide recorded membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000, a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000.[Statistical Yearbook of the Church 2004 ( ISBN 88-209-7817-2)] As such it is the world's largest single organised body of religion. The Church is led by the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, currently Pope Benedict XVI.
Ect... 2nd Piston Honda 17:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
See the edit [ [1]]. Explain what point you were trying to make with this edit. 2nd Piston Honda 18:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
The Roman Catholic Church, also called the Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church in the world,[ "Major Branches of Religions". adherents.com. Retrieved 2006-07-19.] composed of twenty three particular churches in communion with the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, including those of the Western and Eastern Rite. The Church describes each Pope as the successor of Saint Peter, using the honorific title of His Holiness. Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, states that the Church is the " One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" of in the Nicene Creed, founded by Jesus for the salvation of all humanity.
The Church's worldwide membership at the end of year 2004 was 1,098,366,000,[Statistical Yearbook of the Church 2004] a year in which the United Nations put the total world population at 6,388,500,000. As such it is the world's largest single organised body of religion.
There's a difference between mentioning the Pope (as in the current version) and explaining the Pope, and i don't think the intro should have any of the latter. Also, why is it important to talk about the "23 particular churches"? That's not a definition of the Church that i've EVER heard. 2nd Piston Honda 19:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
These two start with a reference to the jurisdictions and affiliations of the church body. Then we have the two articles that define the RCC as noted above. But if we don't want to mention the 23 particular churches and the 2 rites in the first sentence, maybe we could do something simpler. Also, I think we could use the 2nd sentence from Eastern Orthodoxy verbatim. Maybe something like:
-- Andrew c 21:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I am glad to see some improvements being made to the introduction. Also, this last version looks pretty good to me. A few points:
Thanks again, guys for your good work on this. Vaquero100 04:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
How about this for the whole intro?
Issues:
What else? Any comments, changes, criticism? -- Andrew c 20:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I like SynKobiety's modifications. And I agree with TSP that it is better to say "or approximately 1 in 6 of the world's population" than the exact number (which, by the way, should be very easy to “estimate” by multiplying the catholic membership.) -- Leinad ¬ »saudações! 07:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
According to canon law, members are those who have been baptized in, or have been received into, the Catholic Church on making a profession of faith, provided they have not formally renounced membership.
Worldwide, the Church is divided into jurisdictional areas, usually on a territorial basis. The standard territorial unit is called, in the Latin Rite, a diocese, and in the Eastern Rites, an eparchy, and is headed by a bishop or an eparch. For other forms, see below under "The episcopate". At the end of 2004, the total number of all these jurisdictional areas or sees was 2755 ( Annuario Pontificio 2005).
The see of Rome is seen as central, and its bishop, the Pope, is considered to be the (sole) successor of Saint Peter, the chief of the Apostles, sometimes called the "prince" (from Latin princeps, meaning "foremost", "leader") of the Apostles.
A description of the Roman Catholic Church must necessarily deal with its teaching and its internal organization. What follows is therefore based principally on its Catechism of the Catholic Church, on its two codes of law, namely the Code of Canon Law (for the Latin Rite) and the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, and on its yearbook, the Annuario Pontificio.
-- Andrew c 20:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for the input. I have imported a version into the main article. Everyones suggestions were helpful, but now everyone can have a hands on approach to editing the intro, instead of making comments and having me try to adjust the proposal accordingly. I think this is a good step in the right direct. Thanks again.-- Andrew c 20:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
As I see it, the problem here is the disconnect between the Catholic Church's definition of itself as "catholic and universal" vs. the perception of those Christians outside the Catholic Church and, arguably, the reality of whether or not the Catholic Church is, in fact, "catholic and universal" as it claims to be.
Consider the following text from the religious denomination article...
NB: The above text considers the Catholic Church to be a denomination.
Also consider this text from the Christian denomination article...
NB: The above text is a bit unclear. Is the Catholic Church a "major division" or a "denomination"?
Me personally, I am OK with "denomination", "branch" or "church". I'm not wedded to any particular term. What I do feel is important is that the text in this article be consonant with the usage in the two articles referenced above.
If you want to say that other Christians consider the Catholic Church to be a denomination but the Catholic Church does not consider itself to be a "denomination" because it considers itself to be the one true Church, then state both POVs. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, the Catholic Church is not the sole source of truth, even about itself. Please seek to maintain a NPOV.
-- Richard 21:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I am curious as to the use of these terms within the article. Is there an established policy here? I do know that using Christ as synonymous with Jesus is quite common in many of the (secularly produced) history books I have read (and here I emphasize that I don’t mean superficially Christian or apologetically literature). Here is an example, a quote from a well respected and recent history book on the Reformation, written by someone who describes himself as “not now personally subscribing to any form of religious dogma” (intro xxv)
This sort of thing is quite common and I could provide many texts with similar entries. I think it a worthy question to ask since the article not only uses the word Jesus frequently, but is about a Church that obviously sees the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith as one and the same. Lostcaesar 09:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a tremendous disparity between the Salvation section of the Roman Catholic Church article and the Roman Catholic section of the Salvation article that needs to be addressed.-- Antelucan 13:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The coverage of Apostolic Succession on this and other pages seems to be clearly POV in favor of the Roman Catholic Church and against the Anglican Communion and Porvoo Communion, defining apostolic succession in terms of acceptance by authorities in the Vatican. What do people think about a new section in this article discussing the importance of Apostolic Succession in the RCC specifically, and a revamp of the corresponding article generally? Svend la Rose 03:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
At present, this is what this article says about the Catholic Church's approach to the global AIDS epidemic:
Abstinence as "one of the most successful strategies against AIDS"? This claim is made on the basis of the findings of a study, the results of which can be found here, but, having read the cited article, this seems to me to be a bit of a stretch. First, obviously if people are having sex less frequently, the incidence of people contracting sexually-transmitted infections like AIDS will be reduced; however, that says nothing about the efficacy of the strategy of emphasising abstinence, that is, the strategy that has been adopted by the Catholic Church. Furthermore, Uganda is one -- tiny -- country in Africa, and everywhere else on the continent the strategy of merely promoting abstinence has failed dismally. No Sex = No AIDS is a technically valid claim, but it hasn't proven itself to be an effective strategy. My understanding of the study is that the spread of AIDS has slowed in Uganda for a number of reasons, including the availability of condoms, etc., but also because members of the younger generation now know of more people who have AIDS and thus would, understandably, be more cautious about their own sexual behaviour out of fear of contracting HIV themselves. Promoting abstinence is not slowing the spread of AIDS in Uganda; rather, it is being slowed because of education about the disease itself.
Given that any substantive changes to this article are likely to be controversial no matter what they are, I haven't yet made any myself. But I strongly think this needs to be corrected, as it looks like the facts have been warped to suit some ideological agenda. Please, some feedback on what to do about this sentence. -- Todeswalzer 00:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)