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This discussion has been moved to Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Page rename proposal |
This was a multiparty mediation filed on January 19, 2009 by NancyHeise and signed by 19 participants, of which 17 have been active. The mediation was accepted by the Mediation Committee on January 27 and Shell Kinney agreed to mediate on February 10. Due to off-wiki commitments, Shell withdrew from the mediation; Sunray took over as mediator on March 4, 2009.
The mediation centered on the first part of the lead sentence of the Roman Catholic Church article: "The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church..." At issue was the use of the word "officially" and also the significance and relative importance of the two names. Other issues in dispute pertained to the explanatory note for the two names and the use of sources in the note. Participants reviewed several alternative proposals for the wording of the lead sentence.
Research by participants determined that the name the "Catholic Church" was the most common name and also the name most commonly used by the church, when referring to itself. There was a rough consensus in favor of changing the first part of the lead sentence and much thought and discussion went into rewording the lead. It was agreed to re-draft the explanatory note to accompany this wording. This called into question the name of the article. Participants were guided by WP policy and guidelines on naming.
This summary and action plan are posted to the article talk page for community consultation. Shell Kinney and I will be facilitating the discussion, which will close at 12:00 noon, UTC, on June 26, 2009. The participants in the mediation welcome discussion regarding the action plan. Sunray ( talk)
This plan and its discussion have been moved to a subpage, Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Page rename proposal to avoid disrupting other on-going discussions. As issues are discussed and resolved, they will be archived or collapsed on that page. Shell babelfish
The mediation on the name of the Church [1] is now concluded successfully. Part of the action plan that arose from the mediation was to hold a community-wide consultation regarding a proposed article name change to "Catholic
Church." The consultation centered on one key question: Can one church appropriate a name for itself? The discussion on this topic examined other churches' use of the term “catholic.” The related topic of whether the term “Catholic Church” was thereby ambiguous was also discussed. There were lengthy discussions regarding the process of the consultation and the interpretation of WP policy and guidelines on article naming. [2]
There was general agreement on the following:
A majority of those who commented expressed the view that the proposed name change was in accordance with Wikipedia policy and guidelines on article naming and indicated their support for it. This, in the view of the mediators supports the consensus of the mediation to rename the article, modify the lead sentence to read: "The Catholic Church also known as the Roman Catholic Church...," and add the new explanatory note prepared as part of the mediation. These actions will be taken within the next few days. All editors are enjoined to respect this consensus. Sunray ( talk) 19:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the talk also be renamed?-- Rockstone35 ( talk) 19:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Carlaude contacted me on my talk page to remind me that some questions and concerns he had raised during the page rename consultation had not been dealt with. The issues he raised during the consultation are the following;
“ | the name "Roman Catholic Church" is disliked by many Catholics as a label applied to them by Protestants to suggest that theirs is only one of several catholic Churches... | ” |
“ | A good many Roman Catholics object to the epithet 'Roman'. They do so for a variety of reasons. One is that... calling them Roman rather suggests that there are other, equally valid, kinds of Catholic, such as - and in particular - Anglo Catholic. Another reason why the term is disliked is because it is sometimes used by those hostile to Roman Catholicism to suggest that its adherents do not really belong to the nation in which they live, that they are somehow 'foreign'... cannot be loyal citizens of their native land. | ” |
“ | ...many Roman Catholics dislike the label "Roman Catholic Church" as a suggestion that theirs is only one of several equally valid churches; where as other Christians object that the label "Catholic Church" presumes it is the one uniquely valid church.... | ” |
In his first point, Carlaude notes that the citation (Walsh) does not use the term "Protestants." I think he is correct that it is misleading to do so in the explanatory note. It seems to me that a fairly simple change to the note might address this concern. For example, by simply eliminating the word "Protestant" or substituting the word "others" for it, the statement conforms to the citation.
His second point seems to me to be a technical fix needed for the citation. His third point is more complex. He is questioning whether the note is neutral in not mentioning that many Christians are opposed to the name "Catholic Church." This seems like something we should consider. i will hold my own view for now, but will participate in the discussion (not as mediator). Sunray ( talk) 21:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Peter jackson ( talk) 16:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I made the first change proposed above, substituting "others" for "Protestants," as several people agreed with that and no one opposed. The second change, I am unsure about. I don't think that we necessarily need to make the change now. If the book drops off google's radar, we can simply re-work the citation accordingly. Does anyone hold strong views either way on this? Sunray ( talk)
“ | ...many Roman Catholics dislike the label "Roman Catholic Church" as a suggestion that theirs is only one of several equally valid churches; where as some other Christians object that the label "Catholic Church" presumes it is the one uniquely valid church.... | ” |
To sum up,
While I will point out that Wikipedia is not run by voting, I think there also is fatal flaw in Storm Riders argument as I pointed out above-- this is not just about what is believed or taught-- and with no follow up from him. Likewise I am not sure if Xandar has an argument, based on any Wikipedia policy. He seem to be just implying that if the nonRCs get a view expressed in the article here.. or anywhere.. it might be more and more. Again he did not follow up. If no one wants to say much more this looks like WP:CON to me. Carlaude: Talk 21:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
"Usually" seems more appropriate phrasing than "much more often" because we cannot accurately clearly determine at what point "more often" become "much" more often. It also needs mentioning that Vatican documents are not the only measure of the church's own usage of its names as the church is not just the Vatican and the use of "RCC" in other official church contexts outside of the Vatican is far more common than some people are prepared to admit. Afterwriting ( talk) 14:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
There are two alternate wordings proposed: 1) "The church's documents usually use CC rather than RCC," and, 2) "Between CC and RCC, the church's documents usually use CC." The latter puts a finer point on the fact that the comparison is only between these two names. However, in practice, they seem to be very close in meaning. Xandar and Gimmetrow, would one of you be willing to remove your objection to the other phrase? Sunray ( talk) 19:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been ignoring this discussion because I didn't really care that much about what was being argued. However, today I started to wonder why we even had this sentence.
You all are going to hate me for this but maybe it will make sense if you think about it...
Why do we need this sentence at all? After all, I dont' think we can source the statement to secondary documents. (Parse that sentence carefully. No source that I've seen presented over the last year talks about the "church's own documents" or even "official documents". Whitehead talked about the "proper name" of the church and Madrid did says "official name". However, even they don't talk about the church's "own" or "official" documents. Sources may discuss specific documents but, as far as I can remember, nobody uses the phrase "church's own documents" or "official documents" to discuss the corpus of church documents as a whole.)
Relying on any observations by Wikipedia editors as to relative frequencies of use in church documents (i.e. primary documents) is basically OR.
Try reading the Note again without the sentence in question and consider whether the Note is diminished by deleting the sentence altogether.
It feels to me as if this sentence was constructed precisely for the purpose of establishing the "preference" for "Catholic Church" over "Roman Catholic Church", a question that may be more of a burning issue for the editors of this article than it is for the average reader.
It seems we are insisting on telling the reader something that he doesn't necessarily need to know and that we only know from our own intuition and original research.
-- Richard ( talk) 18:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Xan dar 22::::33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Now that we have offically changed the name on Wikipedia to it's real name, Catholic Church- we should begin changing all references to Roman Catholic Church. First up "Part of a series on the Roman Catholic Church" is in the name of the series, we need to change the name —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockstone35 ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
If it is true that this was not listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves then it is quite clear that the move should not have been made, that it should be reverted immediately, and that the possibility of moving to Catholic Church should be discussed. Accordingly I am restoring the POV tag. Ian Spackman ( talk) 19:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I just added footnotes 47-51 (re "Origin & Mission"), which are external links for CRS, Cath. Charities, Caritas Int'l, St. Vincent dePaul Society, & Worldwide Marr Encounter (to their websites). Although I used the cheatsheet, I unfortunately did not do them correctly. When you look at nn. 47-51, you'll see that each one has red lettering, indicating my error(s). I just printed out Wiki's "Tutorial (External links)", which I will try to understand and work on -- in the Sandbox, which may take me a while .... In the meantime, would one of my fellow users be so kind as to correct my footnotes, by adding the reference name for each footnote, e.g., Catholic Relief Services, Catholic Charities, Caritas International, Society of St. Vincent dePaul, and Worldwide Marriage Encounter. Thank you for your help and your patience. Happy Independence Day! Eagle4000 ( talk) 21:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Please see my proposal here. -- Richard ( talk) 02:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
It's such a knock to Wikipedia that it says "the Catholic Church is also known as the Roman Catholic Church". This is untrue. This is: "The Roman Catholic Church is how most people in America refer to the Rite of the Catholic Church which they experience the most, which is the Roman Rite." It is in ignorance that most Americans use this designation, as the Roman Rite is one of Seven. Do Americans see a Byzantine Catholic church and a Roman Catholic church (2 buildings) side by side and say, "Oh, these two churches are run by different organizations?" No, they don't, because they are ignorant. But the truth is that both churches are run by the Catholic Church. There isn't really any "Roman Catholic Church", only a Roman Rite. It's a big deal, and it makes Wikipedia look like it was written by ignorant people.
35.8.218.53 ( talk) 20:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
There's a body calling itself the catholic Church of God (Peter Day, A Dictionary of Christian Denominations, Continuum, 2003, page 89). Peter jackson ( talk) 10:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay. And your point? Their name was a lowercase c. And the Fact that no one caught that means that it probably isn't important. And there is no Wikipedia article on it. If it ever becomes popular, we can add it to a dab link. -- Rockstone35 ( talk) 03:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
The lower-case c was my own typing error. The rest I leave to you. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
The Church is not technically headquartered in Rome, it is located in a tiny enclave called the Vatican City, a sovereign state which is surrounded by the city of Rome. The city of Rome belongs to an entirely different state, the Italian republic. It is great to see that this has been moved to Catholic Church by the way! - Yorkshirian ( talk) 20:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Try to be careful whom you're addressing. The placement of your remark innediately after mine would imply that "you" means me. In fact I didn't call this an error, someone else did.
I see you've thought of 2 examples of the sort of thing I was asking about. Were Berlin & Jerusalem 2 different cities each when they were divided between states? Peter jackson ( talk) 10:24, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
While I do share Carlaude's position in hoping for the restoration of the Papal States, that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon. I think this is a unique case in that the enclave is surrounded by a city, but the Vatican City is no more "in Rome", than San Marino is "in Italy" or Lesotho is "in South Africa". In conclusion; it is best to avoid terminology which may mislead the reader. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 18:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
By definition, a country is not said to ever be "in" another country. It is either part of the same country or surrounded by the other country. But lots of things can be "in" two countries an be the same thing: forests, mountains, lakes, railroads, deserts, tunnels. Lesotho and South Africa are just two countries, one surrounded by the other with no "Lesotho City" or the like. The City of San Marino is completly within San Marino and so it is not a city divided between two states, and in fact the city is very nearly surrounded by other parts of San Marino. Clearly Berlin and Jerusalem are beter analogies.
But I am fine with either "This page is about the church headquartered within Rome" or "This page is about the church headquartered in Vatican City, Rome", since I am not so sure as many readers (in the US at least) know where the "Vatican City" is. My fellow Americans are terrible at geography. Carlaude: Talk 19:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
In connexion with Yorkshirian's apparent preference for legal as opposed to de facto definitions of cities, I'd point out that London, legally, is a city of about 1 square mile in area & population about 4000. The de facto city is legally Greater London. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Since, the current title of the article is ambiguous as an wiki article title (for example it cannot make the distinction between the title "Catholic Church" (which is used my multiple Churches) and the descriptive "catholic Church" (which is an important concept for many Churches)), a more explicit disambiguation line at the top of the article is necessary. I believe the following "This article is about the Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, for other Churches which claim this title or catholicity, see Catholic Church (disambiguation)." should be used as a more explicit disambiguation line. Cody7777777 ( talk) 21:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but Wikipedia runs by consensus and no one has decided to set up a Wikimonarchy. This is your POV, it is not recognized by anyone but you and you have not demonstrated that it is ambiguous. Until you demonstrate that to the community, you might want to consider a blog, or even writing in your own journal, but this time of demanding and attempts to confine conversation to your own POV is worthless. There is nothing further to discuss; it borders on trolling and I will refrain from further feedings. Cheers. -- Storm Rider 19:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm having trouble getting an overview of all the talk pages, subpages, archived pages, and whatnot, but it looks like this article was moved to Catholic Church without a request for move that the entire Wikipedia community was invited to discuss. Rather, it seems it moved on the basis of the mediation, which only a small number of editors were party to. Is this the case? Or was there a community-wide discussion that I've overlooked? + An gr 17:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia community had amble opportunity to engage in the discussion. The change was made following widespread invitations for participation, postings at over a dozen locations, RFC, mediation, painstaking debates lasting months and, eventually, consensus. Angr wishes he had participated, but didn't. There are undoubtedly other editors who wish they had participated, although there's no indication how many would have supported the move and how many would have been opposed. No use speculating about that. The move was conducted in accordance with Wiki policies, and reflects a NPOV, and makes the article more likely to meet Good Article criteria. -- anietor ( talk) 08:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Angr has clearly STILL not bothered to read the relevant policies OR the arguments gone through in mediation and the Move Debate - otherwise he would not make the arguments he does. The points Ang makes were discussed fully in the debate, and are specifically ruled out by Wikipedia naming policy. It is not up to Wikipedians to decide to call an entity any other name than that by whhich it principally self-identifies. As far as process goes, this process has lasted fully six months, followed WP policy to the letter, and been more widely consulted on than any other. I notice that Angr on his talk page recently cut someones article within seven days without even informing him that that discussion was taking place, so he is in a poor position to talk about others. Similarly the decision to change from Catholicism, to RCC , several years ago, was made on the talk page, with a lot less consultation than this decision. Angrs position that "Roman Catholic" is more NPOV than the name the Church actually and properly calls itself, and is called by most people, (as proven in the discussions,) defies logic. It is personal POV, and counter to WP policies. I ould claim to be offended by Church of England, Baptist Church, Orthodox Church, Assemblies of God, Church of Ireland etc. Puting a tag on the article is also a misuse of tags. They ae not to be used to push personal POVs. Xan dar 18:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
It is rather irrelevent whether certain Protestants find the Catholic Church's name "offensive"; each one of their tiny groups are a minority within Christianity. I would personally prefer the article Islam to be located at "Mohammedanism", but as the actual practioners of that religion seem to find this offensive (just as the largest amount of Christians in the world, Catholics, dislike the addition/insult of the word "Roman" to their religion) and instead call their religion "Islam", then it would be unreasonable for me to try and push my personal POV onto that article. Nobody has ever typed in the words Catholic Church to Wikipedia and then being confused that they haven't been located to an obscure Protestant sect, this is just pedantic. This isn't Protestantapedia its Wikipedia. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 18:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
If it is true that this was not listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves then it is quite clear that the move should not have been made, that it should be reverted immediately, and that the possibility of moving to Catholic Church should be discussed. Accordingly I am restoring the POV tag. Ian Spackman ( talk) 19:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Just a note. User:Carlaude has requested full protection of this article at WP:RFPP. -- Elliskev 20:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Not one single complaint has been registered that supports why the name change should not have been made; it seems more that individual editors whine about not getting to have their say. I can hear my mother saying, "Now tweedledee, grow up. You know that you can't do everything!" Thousands of editors were notified of the discussion and most chose not to participate. The choice was made AFTER months of discussion. Say M-O-N-T-H-S and then tell me this was a hasty decision.
If you have a reason why the change should not have been made, then state it concisely, but fully. Do not say, "It is POV". Explain exactly how it is POV. Better yet, please read the entire archive of the entire discussion for the several months that it took place. When you do, you will see why your reason makes no sense and why it is, if anything, NPOV.
In addition, this was not a conversation of just Catholics, but one that included many different groups of Christians and even some heretics (thank you very much, I am LDS; as such I am either a cult member or a heretic ready for burning...breathe everyone that is humor). This is a simple case of defining what church calls itself and ignoring, appropriately so, everything else. The only way this becomes a POV issue is when editors confuse a doctrine with a name. The leaders of the Protestant Reformation saw no confusion whatsoever; they left the CC and still found that they were members of the one, holy catholic church. Cheers. -- Storm Rider 21:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I believe that during the last phase of the mediation (repsectively the "Community consultation"), it was shown that the wiki rules don't really favor the renaming to simply "Catholic Church" (it can be checked here and here, but this seems to have been ignored (at least, in my opinion). Also, if the entire "Consultation" is checked, I think it will be noticed, that there were some users in that discussion who disagreed with this moved, so I don't think there was a too solid consensus supporting this, there was rather a consensus to allow this move at that time (at least, in my opinion). (It should be noted that there are some sources [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] which explicitly claim that the official name of the Church discussed in this article is the "Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church", I am not claiming they are right, I'm just mentioning them.) I believe, that a disambiguation in parentheses, should be added to the current title, like "Catholic Church (in communion with Rome)" or "Catholic Church (Roman)" (this was suggested earlier here during the mediation), or some other description in parentheses. Cody7777777 ( talk) 12:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
In brief, the move to Catholic Church was discussed in mediation, brought to the Talk Page and then implemented over the objections of a couple of editors (i.e. with the sense that there was a substantial, perhaps even overwhelming consensus supporting or, at least, not objecting strenuously to the move). Even after the move, the amount of dissent is relatively small (countable on one hand).
As pointed out, there is really nothing magical about Requested Moves. It is not the same kind of process as WP:AFD. That is, if an admin deletes an article that neither fits speedy deletion criteria nor has been through the AFD process, there is a bit of an uproar.
Moves depend upon consensus, generally formed on the Talk Page. WP:RM is more oriented towards being a process for requesting an admin to resolve some of the technical issues around non-trivial "moves over redirect".
That said, if you really believe that this move was done against consensus, there is nothing stopping you from reopening the discussion (which is, in fact, what you have already done).
However, I suggest you take a survey to see where the consensus lies. Yes, I know Cody thinks that polls are not a substitute for discussion and voting is evil. However, at some point, discussion ends when people feel nothing new is being added to the discussion even if one or more editors wish to reassert their arguments ad infinitum and ad nauseam.
If the move to Catholic Church gets less than 70% support, I will admit that there is something less than a full consensus for that title. However, I doubt that you will get 70% support for moving it back to Roman Catholic Church and so the question is how hard you wish to fight this battle since it is doubtful that you can "win" it and the best you can do is extend it indefinitely by posting here until some kind admin decides to put you out of your misery by blocking you.
-- Richard ( talk) 20:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The opening statement seems to be misleading. "The Catholic Church, Also known as the Roman Catholic Church..." I am Catholic but by no means am I Roman Catholic. My roots are in Eastern Orthodoxy which many believe is the main branch of Catholicism from which the Roman branch broke away from (not visa versa). We accept the Roman Catholic Church as one of our equals. We accept the Roman Catholic pope as Bishop equal to our Bishop. There are many different branches of the Catholic Church and to state that "Catholic" means Roman Catholic is intensely offensive. It has the feel that the rest of us have been brushed away from the article like annoying dust. DSnow101 ( talk) 22:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh lord. Cody, although I have a high level of respect for you, there is a distinct odor of troll wafting in the air when you start up with that stuff. You made those arguments something on the order of 15 times over at Talk:Orthodox Church and convinced no one (except maybe me). It is time to give it a rest. Folks, if you wish to discuss the title of the Orthodox Church, please do it over at Talk:Orthodox Church. We do not need to revive that argument over on this page. -- Richard ( talk) 19:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
One thing we must keep in mind. Yes some groups have tried to alter the nature of language, when it comes to the name "Catholic Church", but they have failed in this spectacularly. Saying something like "The Orthodox Eastern Church is the whole of the Catholic Church now living upon earth—The titles "Orthodox" and "Eastern" merely temporary" isnt really "offensive", its more amusing banter when taking into consideration the Council of Florence and so on, it appears as humourous bravado. But in any case they have still failed in a major way, in popular discourse without the words "Eastern Orthodox" nobody would have a clue you were speaking of that organisation.
Its a similar situation in England, in popular, practical and realistic discourse, "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" applies to the topic of this article and not Anglicanism, no matter if the word "Roman" is used in ecumenicalism. This is an important point to get across in the article I think; there is no real-world ambiguity when it comes to the name Catholic Church, even to the negationists who would try to manipulate language for their own position, when they hear the words "Catholic Church" spoken they known exactly which organisation is been spoken of, even if they don't like it. I can't believe so much time is wasted on going over the naming issue though. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 23:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
RICHARD. I respectfully ask you to ask this editor Yorkshirian to exhibit a more mature dialog and refrain from making trollish and inflammatory comments.i.e.
AND Our patriarchs' opinions are not fringe. Read who Cody is quoting. I have remained out of this debate, while I could post things most ugly. Out of respect for the explicit comments of Orthodox church fathers, I will practice restrain and remain out. I find this individuals comments unbecoming. As an English encyclopedia which can not use the English word Universal but insists on calling a largely European church by a Greek word- catholic, a church that obviously is not Greek and has individuals like Yorkshirian making mocking condemnation of THE GREEK church, well the humbris of this is breathtaking. There is ample reason for us as Orthodox and Latin to continue to hate, being disrespectful is key to this though. Just some passing thoughts about how people are talking to Cody and addressing the East here. LoveMonkey ( talk) 00:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Bravo..Angr.. Yes there is a cultural understanding. If people do not wish to address the substance of this at least they can stop with the Ad hominem. There is the implication and inference that is not being addressed. BTW I would not have posted if people had not become so blatantly disrespectful. For I find it strange that the Latin word for Catholic, which is Universus (or whatever Latin conjugation of it) can not be used for the Latin church. This obviously is what is at task. Disregarding the validity of this point is pointless as it is time honored (and has nothing to do with Political Correctness) that it be pointed out the short coming of the title as it stands within that article it's self as that would make the article closer to NPOV. But alas for the no, ad-hom, dodging and duplicity. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC) talk 12:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
There appears to be about three different discussions going on. Again Cody is not DSnow101 and I don't think they have collaborated. End of Story. I am not here to further this debate my interjection was to point out the regrettable commentary which will inflame partisans. There is no need for it here, good you missed that. And another aside. People can post their opposition, I nor Cody, DSNow101 have started an editwar. Standing up against outragious allegations of fringe and the like is not abrasive. Making those allegations is. The final inferred discussion is on Unity as the word catholic means that. I can imagine that it is now but a word on paper, since people's unfortunate commentary and legalistic wrangling have pretty chocked the naivete' right out of us useless moderates. Smile it's not like me and Cody and DSNow are the only ones reading all this. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
There is a link to the concept Christian Church in the article, which would seem to suggest that the Catholic Church is part of a wider, egalitarian, "super Church" of absolutely everybody who considers themselves a Christian. The Catholic Church rejects this concept, regarding itself as the visable, one Church of Christ, the Christian Church itself. Surely it is POV to link a concept which it rejects in the intro? - Yorkshirian ( talk) 23:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
When this page was moved from the title "Roman Catholic Church" to "Catholic Church, 118 revisions were deleted to make way for the move. I moved this page to "Catholic Church/Temp", and moved some of the deleted edits to Catholic Church (disambiguation) to perform a history merge on the disambig page. Since the title of this page is controversial, I thought it'd be a good idea to explain my actions here. Graham 87 06:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
As per WP:LENGTH, I still feel this page is too long to be easily readable. The solution I suggest, as before, is to replace the history section with an overview of the Church's history and a link to the page on the history of the Church which at the moment is replicated in the middle of this page. Haldraper ( talk) 08:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I note that the Encyclopaedia Britannica article is titled "Roman Catholicism" and this seems to circumvent arguments about the lack of explicit declarations of an official name in Church documents whilst also setting it within the wider field of Catholicism. Taam ( talk) 14:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
WP:RM was not needed, period. -- Rockstone35 ( talk) 23:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | → | Archive 35 |
This discussion has been moved to Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Page rename proposal |
This was a multiparty mediation filed on January 19, 2009 by NancyHeise and signed by 19 participants, of which 17 have been active. The mediation was accepted by the Mediation Committee on January 27 and Shell Kinney agreed to mediate on February 10. Due to off-wiki commitments, Shell withdrew from the mediation; Sunray took over as mediator on March 4, 2009.
The mediation centered on the first part of the lead sentence of the Roman Catholic Church article: "The Roman Catholic Church, officially known as the Catholic Church..." At issue was the use of the word "officially" and also the significance and relative importance of the two names. Other issues in dispute pertained to the explanatory note for the two names and the use of sources in the note. Participants reviewed several alternative proposals for the wording of the lead sentence.
Research by participants determined that the name the "Catholic Church" was the most common name and also the name most commonly used by the church, when referring to itself. There was a rough consensus in favor of changing the first part of the lead sentence and much thought and discussion went into rewording the lead. It was agreed to re-draft the explanatory note to accompany this wording. This called into question the name of the article. Participants were guided by WP policy and guidelines on naming.
This summary and action plan are posted to the article talk page for community consultation. Shell Kinney and I will be facilitating the discussion, which will close at 12:00 noon, UTC, on June 26, 2009. The participants in the mediation welcome discussion regarding the action plan. Sunray ( talk)
This plan and its discussion have been moved to a subpage, Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Page rename proposal to avoid disrupting other on-going discussions. As issues are discussed and resolved, they will be archived or collapsed on that page. Shell babelfish
The mediation on the name of the Church [1] is now concluded successfully. Part of the action plan that arose from the mediation was to hold a community-wide consultation regarding a proposed article name change to "Catholic
Church." The consultation centered on one key question: Can one church appropriate a name for itself? The discussion on this topic examined other churches' use of the term “catholic.” The related topic of whether the term “Catholic Church” was thereby ambiguous was also discussed. There were lengthy discussions regarding the process of the consultation and the interpretation of WP policy and guidelines on article naming. [2]
There was general agreement on the following:
A majority of those who commented expressed the view that the proposed name change was in accordance with Wikipedia policy and guidelines on article naming and indicated their support for it. This, in the view of the mediators supports the consensus of the mediation to rename the article, modify the lead sentence to read: "The Catholic Church also known as the Roman Catholic Church...," and add the new explanatory note prepared as part of the mediation. These actions will be taken within the next few days. All editors are enjoined to respect this consensus. Sunray ( talk) 19:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't the talk also be renamed?-- Rockstone35 ( talk) 19:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Carlaude contacted me on my talk page to remind me that some questions and concerns he had raised during the page rename consultation had not been dealt with. The issues he raised during the consultation are the following;
“ | the name "Roman Catholic Church" is disliked by many Catholics as a label applied to them by Protestants to suggest that theirs is only one of several catholic Churches... | ” |
“ | A good many Roman Catholics object to the epithet 'Roman'. They do so for a variety of reasons. One is that... calling them Roman rather suggests that there are other, equally valid, kinds of Catholic, such as - and in particular - Anglo Catholic. Another reason why the term is disliked is because it is sometimes used by those hostile to Roman Catholicism to suggest that its adherents do not really belong to the nation in which they live, that they are somehow 'foreign'... cannot be loyal citizens of their native land. | ” |
“ | ...many Roman Catholics dislike the label "Roman Catholic Church" as a suggestion that theirs is only one of several equally valid churches; where as other Christians object that the label "Catholic Church" presumes it is the one uniquely valid church.... | ” |
In his first point, Carlaude notes that the citation (Walsh) does not use the term "Protestants." I think he is correct that it is misleading to do so in the explanatory note. It seems to me that a fairly simple change to the note might address this concern. For example, by simply eliminating the word "Protestant" or substituting the word "others" for it, the statement conforms to the citation.
His second point seems to me to be a technical fix needed for the citation. His third point is more complex. He is questioning whether the note is neutral in not mentioning that many Christians are opposed to the name "Catholic Church." This seems like something we should consider. i will hold my own view for now, but will participate in the discussion (not as mediator). Sunray ( talk) 21:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Peter jackson ( talk) 16:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I made the first change proposed above, substituting "others" for "Protestants," as several people agreed with that and no one opposed. The second change, I am unsure about. I don't think that we necessarily need to make the change now. If the book drops off google's radar, we can simply re-work the citation accordingly. Does anyone hold strong views either way on this? Sunray ( talk)
“ | ...many Roman Catholics dislike the label "Roman Catholic Church" as a suggestion that theirs is only one of several equally valid churches; where as some other Christians object that the label "Catholic Church" presumes it is the one uniquely valid church.... | ” |
To sum up,
While I will point out that Wikipedia is not run by voting, I think there also is fatal flaw in Storm Riders argument as I pointed out above-- this is not just about what is believed or taught-- and with no follow up from him. Likewise I am not sure if Xandar has an argument, based on any Wikipedia policy. He seem to be just implying that if the nonRCs get a view expressed in the article here.. or anywhere.. it might be more and more. Again he did not follow up. If no one wants to say much more this looks like WP:CON to me. Carlaude: Talk 21:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
"Usually" seems more appropriate phrasing than "much more often" because we cannot accurately clearly determine at what point "more often" become "much" more often. It also needs mentioning that Vatican documents are not the only measure of the church's own usage of its names as the church is not just the Vatican and the use of "RCC" in other official church contexts outside of the Vatican is far more common than some people are prepared to admit. Afterwriting ( talk) 14:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
There are two alternate wordings proposed: 1) "The church's documents usually use CC rather than RCC," and, 2) "Between CC and RCC, the church's documents usually use CC." The latter puts a finer point on the fact that the comparison is only between these two names. However, in practice, they seem to be very close in meaning. Xandar and Gimmetrow, would one of you be willing to remove your objection to the other phrase? Sunray ( talk) 19:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been ignoring this discussion because I didn't really care that much about what was being argued. However, today I started to wonder why we even had this sentence.
You all are going to hate me for this but maybe it will make sense if you think about it...
Why do we need this sentence at all? After all, I dont' think we can source the statement to secondary documents. (Parse that sentence carefully. No source that I've seen presented over the last year talks about the "church's own documents" or even "official documents". Whitehead talked about the "proper name" of the church and Madrid did says "official name". However, even they don't talk about the church's "own" or "official" documents. Sources may discuss specific documents but, as far as I can remember, nobody uses the phrase "church's own documents" or "official documents" to discuss the corpus of church documents as a whole.)
Relying on any observations by Wikipedia editors as to relative frequencies of use in church documents (i.e. primary documents) is basically OR.
Try reading the Note again without the sentence in question and consider whether the Note is diminished by deleting the sentence altogether.
It feels to me as if this sentence was constructed precisely for the purpose of establishing the "preference" for "Catholic Church" over "Roman Catholic Church", a question that may be more of a burning issue for the editors of this article than it is for the average reader.
It seems we are insisting on telling the reader something that he doesn't necessarily need to know and that we only know from our own intuition and original research.
-- Richard ( talk) 18:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Xan dar 22::::33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Now that we have offically changed the name on Wikipedia to it's real name, Catholic Church- we should begin changing all references to Roman Catholic Church. First up "Part of a series on the Roman Catholic Church" is in the name of the series, we need to change the name —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockstone35 ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
If it is true that this was not listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves then it is quite clear that the move should not have been made, that it should be reverted immediately, and that the possibility of moving to Catholic Church should be discussed. Accordingly I am restoring the POV tag. Ian Spackman ( talk) 19:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I just added footnotes 47-51 (re "Origin & Mission"), which are external links for CRS, Cath. Charities, Caritas Int'l, St. Vincent dePaul Society, & Worldwide Marr Encounter (to their websites). Although I used the cheatsheet, I unfortunately did not do them correctly. When you look at nn. 47-51, you'll see that each one has red lettering, indicating my error(s). I just printed out Wiki's "Tutorial (External links)", which I will try to understand and work on -- in the Sandbox, which may take me a while .... In the meantime, would one of my fellow users be so kind as to correct my footnotes, by adding the reference name for each footnote, e.g., Catholic Relief Services, Catholic Charities, Caritas International, Society of St. Vincent dePaul, and Worldwide Marriage Encounter. Thank you for your help and your patience. Happy Independence Day! Eagle4000 ( talk) 21:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Please see my proposal here. -- Richard ( talk) 02:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
It's such a knock to Wikipedia that it says "the Catholic Church is also known as the Roman Catholic Church". This is untrue. This is: "The Roman Catholic Church is how most people in America refer to the Rite of the Catholic Church which they experience the most, which is the Roman Rite." It is in ignorance that most Americans use this designation, as the Roman Rite is one of Seven. Do Americans see a Byzantine Catholic church and a Roman Catholic church (2 buildings) side by side and say, "Oh, these two churches are run by different organizations?" No, they don't, because they are ignorant. But the truth is that both churches are run by the Catholic Church. There isn't really any "Roman Catholic Church", only a Roman Rite. It's a big deal, and it makes Wikipedia look like it was written by ignorant people.
35.8.218.53 ( talk) 20:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
There's a body calling itself the catholic Church of God (Peter Day, A Dictionary of Christian Denominations, Continuum, 2003, page 89). Peter jackson ( talk) 10:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay. And your point? Their name was a lowercase c. And the Fact that no one caught that means that it probably isn't important. And there is no Wikipedia article on it. If it ever becomes popular, we can add it to a dab link. -- Rockstone35 ( talk) 03:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
The lower-case c was my own typing error. The rest I leave to you. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
The Church is not technically headquartered in Rome, it is located in a tiny enclave called the Vatican City, a sovereign state which is surrounded by the city of Rome. The city of Rome belongs to an entirely different state, the Italian republic. It is great to see that this has been moved to Catholic Church by the way! - Yorkshirian ( talk) 20:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Try to be careful whom you're addressing. The placement of your remark innediately after mine would imply that "you" means me. In fact I didn't call this an error, someone else did.
I see you've thought of 2 examples of the sort of thing I was asking about. Were Berlin & Jerusalem 2 different cities each when they were divided between states? Peter jackson ( talk) 10:24, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
While I do share Carlaude's position in hoping for the restoration of the Papal States, that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon. I think this is a unique case in that the enclave is surrounded by a city, but the Vatican City is no more "in Rome", than San Marino is "in Italy" or Lesotho is "in South Africa". In conclusion; it is best to avoid terminology which may mislead the reader. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 18:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
By definition, a country is not said to ever be "in" another country. It is either part of the same country or surrounded by the other country. But lots of things can be "in" two countries an be the same thing: forests, mountains, lakes, railroads, deserts, tunnels. Lesotho and South Africa are just two countries, one surrounded by the other with no "Lesotho City" or the like. The City of San Marino is completly within San Marino and so it is not a city divided between two states, and in fact the city is very nearly surrounded by other parts of San Marino. Clearly Berlin and Jerusalem are beter analogies.
But I am fine with either "This page is about the church headquartered within Rome" or "This page is about the church headquartered in Vatican City, Rome", since I am not so sure as many readers (in the US at least) know where the "Vatican City" is. My fellow Americans are terrible at geography. Carlaude: Talk 19:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
In connexion with Yorkshirian's apparent preference for legal as opposed to de facto definitions of cities, I'd point out that London, legally, is a city of about 1 square mile in area & population about 4000. The de facto city is legally Greater London. Peter jackson ( talk) 10:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Since, the current title of the article is ambiguous as an wiki article title (for example it cannot make the distinction between the title "Catholic Church" (which is used my multiple Churches) and the descriptive "catholic Church" (which is an important concept for many Churches)), a more explicit disambiguation line at the top of the article is necessary. I believe the following "This article is about the Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, for other Churches which claim this title or catholicity, see Catholic Church (disambiguation)." should be used as a more explicit disambiguation line. Cody7777777 ( talk) 21:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong, but Wikipedia runs by consensus and no one has decided to set up a Wikimonarchy. This is your POV, it is not recognized by anyone but you and you have not demonstrated that it is ambiguous. Until you demonstrate that to the community, you might want to consider a blog, or even writing in your own journal, but this time of demanding and attempts to confine conversation to your own POV is worthless. There is nothing further to discuss; it borders on trolling and I will refrain from further feedings. Cheers. -- Storm Rider 19:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm having trouble getting an overview of all the talk pages, subpages, archived pages, and whatnot, but it looks like this article was moved to Catholic Church without a request for move that the entire Wikipedia community was invited to discuss. Rather, it seems it moved on the basis of the mediation, which only a small number of editors were party to. Is this the case? Or was there a community-wide discussion that I've overlooked? + An gr 17:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia community had amble opportunity to engage in the discussion. The change was made following widespread invitations for participation, postings at over a dozen locations, RFC, mediation, painstaking debates lasting months and, eventually, consensus. Angr wishes he had participated, but didn't. There are undoubtedly other editors who wish they had participated, although there's no indication how many would have supported the move and how many would have been opposed. No use speculating about that. The move was conducted in accordance with Wiki policies, and reflects a NPOV, and makes the article more likely to meet Good Article criteria. -- anietor ( talk) 08:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Angr has clearly STILL not bothered to read the relevant policies OR the arguments gone through in mediation and the Move Debate - otherwise he would not make the arguments he does. The points Ang makes were discussed fully in the debate, and are specifically ruled out by Wikipedia naming policy. It is not up to Wikipedians to decide to call an entity any other name than that by whhich it principally self-identifies. As far as process goes, this process has lasted fully six months, followed WP policy to the letter, and been more widely consulted on than any other. I notice that Angr on his talk page recently cut someones article within seven days without even informing him that that discussion was taking place, so he is in a poor position to talk about others. Similarly the decision to change from Catholicism, to RCC , several years ago, was made on the talk page, with a lot less consultation than this decision. Angrs position that "Roman Catholic" is more NPOV than the name the Church actually and properly calls itself, and is called by most people, (as proven in the discussions,) defies logic. It is personal POV, and counter to WP policies. I ould claim to be offended by Church of England, Baptist Church, Orthodox Church, Assemblies of God, Church of Ireland etc. Puting a tag on the article is also a misuse of tags. They ae not to be used to push personal POVs. Xan dar 18:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
It is rather irrelevent whether certain Protestants find the Catholic Church's name "offensive"; each one of their tiny groups are a minority within Christianity. I would personally prefer the article Islam to be located at "Mohammedanism", but as the actual practioners of that religion seem to find this offensive (just as the largest amount of Christians in the world, Catholics, dislike the addition/insult of the word "Roman" to their religion) and instead call their religion "Islam", then it would be unreasonable for me to try and push my personal POV onto that article. Nobody has ever typed in the words Catholic Church to Wikipedia and then being confused that they haven't been located to an obscure Protestant sect, this is just pedantic. This isn't Protestantapedia its Wikipedia. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 18:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
If it is true that this was not listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves then it is quite clear that the move should not have been made, that it should be reverted immediately, and that the possibility of moving to Catholic Church should be discussed. Accordingly I am restoring the POV tag. Ian Spackman ( talk) 19:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Just a note. User:Carlaude has requested full protection of this article at WP:RFPP. -- Elliskev 20:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Not one single complaint has been registered that supports why the name change should not have been made; it seems more that individual editors whine about not getting to have their say. I can hear my mother saying, "Now tweedledee, grow up. You know that you can't do everything!" Thousands of editors were notified of the discussion and most chose not to participate. The choice was made AFTER months of discussion. Say M-O-N-T-H-S and then tell me this was a hasty decision.
If you have a reason why the change should not have been made, then state it concisely, but fully. Do not say, "It is POV". Explain exactly how it is POV. Better yet, please read the entire archive of the entire discussion for the several months that it took place. When you do, you will see why your reason makes no sense and why it is, if anything, NPOV.
In addition, this was not a conversation of just Catholics, but one that included many different groups of Christians and even some heretics (thank you very much, I am LDS; as such I am either a cult member or a heretic ready for burning...breathe everyone that is humor). This is a simple case of defining what church calls itself and ignoring, appropriately so, everything else. The only way this becomes a POV issue is when editors confuse a doctrine with a name. The leaders of the Protestant Reformation saw no confusion whatsoever; they left the CC and still found that they were members of the one, holy catholic church. Cheers. -- Storm Rider 21:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I believe that during the last phase of the mediation (repsectively the "Community consultation"), it was shown that the wiki rules don't really favor the renaming to simply "Catholic Church" (it can be checked here and here, but this seems to have been ignored (at least, in my opinion). Also, if the entire "Consultation" is checked, I think it will be noticed, that there were some users in that discussion who disagreed with this moved, so I don't think there was a too solid consensus supporting this, there was rather a consensus to allow this move at that time (at least, in my opinion). (It should be noted that there are some sources [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] which explicitly claim that the official name of the Church discussed in this article is the "Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church", I am not claiming they are right, I'm just mentioning them.) I believe, that a disambiguation in parentheses, should be added to the current title, like "Catholic Church (in communion with Rome)" or "Catholic Church (Roman)" (this was suggested earlier here during the mediation), or some other description in parentheses. Cody7777777 ( talk) 12:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
In brief, the move to Catholic Church was discussed in mediation, brought to the Talk Page and then implemented over the objections of a couple of editors (i.e. with the sense that there was a substantial, perhaps even overwhelming consensus supporting or, at least, not objecting strenuously to the move). Even after the move, the amount of dissent is relatively small (countable on one hand).
As pointed out, there is really nothing magical about Requested Moves. It is not the same kind of process as WP:AFD. That is, if an admin deletes an article that neither fits speedy deletion criteria nor has been through the AFD process, there is a bit of an uproar.
Moves depend upon consensus, generally formed on the Talk Page. WP:RM is more oriented towards being a process for requesting an admin to resolve some of the technical issues around non-trivial "moves over redirect".
That said, if you really believe that this move was done against consensus, there is nothing stopping you from reopening the discussion (which is, in fact, what you have already done).
However, I suggest you take a survey to see where the consensus lies. Yes, I know Cody thinks that polls are not a substitute for discussion and voting is evil. However, at some point, discussion ends when people feel nothing new is being added to the discussion even if one or more editors wish to reassert their arguments ad infinitum and ad nauseam.
If the move to Catholic Church gets less than 70% support, I will admit that there is something less than a full consensus for that title. However, I doubt that you will get 70% support for moving it back to Roman Catholic Church and so the question is how hard you wish to fight this battle since it is doubtful that you can "win" it and the best you can do is extend it indefinitely by posting here until some kind admin decides to put you out of your misery by blocking you.
-- Richard ( talk) 20:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The opening statement seems to be misleading. "The Catholic Church, Also known as the Roman Catholic Church..." I am Catholic but by no means am I Roman Catholic. My roots are in Eastern Orthodoxy which many believe is the main branch of Catholicism from which the Roman branch broke away from (not visa versa). We accept the Roman Catholic Church as one of our equals. We accept the Roman Catholic pope as Bishop equal to our Bishop. There are many different branches of the Catholic Church and to state that "Catholic" means Roman Catholic is intensely offensive. It has the feel that the rest of us have been brushed away from the article like annoying dust. DSnow101 ( talk) 22:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh lord. Cody, although I have a high level of respect for you, there is a distinct odor of troll wafting in the air when you start up with that stuff. You made those arguments something on the order of 15 times over at Talk:Orthodox Church and convinced no one (except maybe me). It is time to give it a rest. Folks, if you wish to discuss the title of the Orthodox Church, please do it over at Talk:Orthodox Church. We do not need to revive that argument over on this page. -- Richard ( talk) 19:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
One thing we must keep in mind. Yes some groups have tried to alter the nature of language, when it comes to the name "Catholic Church", but they have failed in this spectacularly. Saying something like "The Orthodox Eastern Church is the whole of the Catholic Church now living upon earth—The titles "Orthodox" and "Eastern" merely temporary" isnt really "offensive", its more amusing banter when taking into consideration the Council of Florence and so on, it appears as humourous bravado. But in any case they have still failed in a major way, in popular discourse without the words "Eastern Orthodox" nobody would have a clue you were speaking of that organisation.
Its a similar situation in England, in popular, practical and realistic discourse, "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" applies to the topic of this article and not Anglicanism, no matter if the word "Roman" is used in ecumenicalism. This is an important point to get across in the article I think; there is no real-world ambiguity when it comes to the name Catholic Church, even to the negationists who would try to manipulate language for their own position, when they hear the words "Catholic Church" spoken they known exactly which organisation is been spoken of, even if they don't like it. I can't believe so much time is wasted on going over the naming issue though. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 23:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
RICHARD. I respectfully ask you to ask this editor Yorkshirian to exhibit a more mature dialog and refrain from making trollish and inflammatory comments.i.e.
AND Our patriarchs' opinions are not fringe. Read who Cody is quoting. I have remained out of this debate, while I could post things most ugly. Out of respect for the explicit comments of Orthodox church fathers, I will practice restrain and remain out. I find this individuals comments unbecoming. As an English encyclopedia which can not use the English word Universal but insists on calling a largely European church by a Greek word- catholic, a church that obviously is not Greek and has individuals like Yorkshirian making mocking condemnation of THE GREEK church, well the humbris of this is breathtaking. There is ample reason for us as Orthodox and Latin to continue to hate, being disrespectful is key to this though. Just some passing thoughts about how people are talking to Cody and addressing the East here. LoveMonkey ( talk) 00:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Bravo..Angr.. Yes there is a cultural understanding. If people do not wish to address the substance of this at least they can stop with the Ad hominem. There is the implication and inference that is not being addressed. BTW I would not have posted if people had not become so blatantly disrespectful. For I find it strange that the Latin word for Catholic, which is Universus (or whatever Latin conjugation of it) can not be used for the Latin church. This obviously is what is at task. Disregarding the validity of this point is pointless as it is time honored (and has nothing to do with Political Correctness) that it be pointed out the short coming of the title as it stands within that article it's self as that would make the article closer to NPOV. But alas for the no, ad-hom, dodging and duplicity. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC) talk 12:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
There appears to be about three different discussions going on. Again Cody is not DSnow101 and I don't think they have collaborated. End of Story. I am not here to further this debate my interjection was to point out the regrettable commentary which will inflame partisans. There is no need for it here, good you missed that. And another aside. People can post their opposition, I nor Cody, DSNow101 have started an editwar. Standing up against outragious allegations of fringe and the like is not abrasive. Making those allegations is. The final inferred discussion is on Unity as the word catholic means that. I can imagine that it is now but a word on paper, since people's unfortunate commentary and legalistic wrangling have pretty chocked the naivete' right out of us useless moderates. Smile it's not like me and Cody and DSNow are the only ones reading all this. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
There is a link to the concept Christian Church in the article, which would seem to suggest that the Catholic Church is part of a wider, egalitarian, "super Church" of absolutely everybody who considers themselves a Christian. The Catholic Church rejects this concept, regarding itself as the visable, one Church of Christ, the Christian Church itself. Surely it is POV to link a concept which it rejects in the intro? - Yorkshirian ( talk) 23:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
When this page was moved from the title "Roman Catholic Church" to "Catholic Church, 118 revisions were deleted to make way for the move. I moved this page to "Catholic Church/Temp", and moved some of the deleted edits to Catholic Church (disambiguation) to perform a history merge on the disambig page. Since the title of this page is controversial, I thought it'd be a good idea to explain my actions here. Graham 87 06:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
As per WP:LENGTH, I still feel this page is too long to be easily readable. The solution I suggest, as before, is to replace the history section with an overview of the Church's history and a link to the page on the history of the Church which at the moment is replicated in the middle of this page. Haldraper ( talk) 08:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I note that the Encyclopaedia Britannica article is titled "Roman Catholicism" and this seems to circumvent arguments about the lack of explicit declarations of an official name in Church documents whilst also setting it within the wider field of Catholicism. Taam ( talk) 14:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
WP:RM was not needed, period. -- Rockstone35 ( talk) 23:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)