This article shouldn't be merged with "hunting dog" because, although hunters do use such dogs, so do many non-hunters, such as stockmen, farmers, and butchers. I suppose you could merge it both with "hunting dog" and "livestock dog" assuming such a page exists.
At the moment, this is an article about a word, so it could be sent to wikitionary. Hopefully, however, more information will be added, making more of an encyclopedia entry than a dictionary entry.
Praise to Tacosunday! Thank you for saving this article. You have done good work and deserve commendation.
I would like to do the following things: General, cleanup edits for flow and organization. Delete some of the initial stuff I wrote, as it is now not necessary to prove that such catch dogs exist and that was the whole reason I wrote it.
Also, we're going to need more references. Where can we find the proper citations for all this work you've done? You know that someone will come along and want to delete everything eventually which isn't properly cited. We can hold them off for awhile, and try to help, but it seems like you know more than me where they can be found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus ( talk • contribs) 01:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The "ElPresa" site seems to be a fairly reliable source. At the very least, it is evidence of this English term being used to translate the Spanish word "perro de presa" which referred to an historical dog. This historical in spanish uses the term "presa" to refer to a livestock working dog, and ElPresa translates this document into English as "catch dogs".
The document is interesting. The dog known to be closely related to the modern Perro de Presa Canario (which links here) which is known to be related to new-world pig catching dogs such as the Dogo Argentino, Pit Bull Terrier, and so on. The document says that the butcher need these dogs to do their work so neighbors should kill his dog as long as he keeps it under control and on his property in which case he can, he can shoot it. The dogs that http://www.elpresa.com/content/view/33/52/ translates "presas" as "catch dogs" when referring to them, those dogs were used "with indigenous cattle dogs from the beginning of the fifteenth century. These dogs served many purposes. They guarded the farms, helped catch and hold cattle, and exterminated wild or stray dogs".
This last use wouldn't constitute "catch dog" behavior, I suppose, because they were expected to dispatch the nusance animals, not just catch and hold them. Neither would guarding the farms. But catching and holding is catching and holding, so hunting dog is just one other use of such a dog.
I haven't seen any evidence that this practice survives to this day, do you? Have you ever heard of cattlemen or pig farmers using catch dogs on their own animals anymore? I suppose modern stockmanship has found more practical ways, but I can imagine a rancher appreciating dogs that could go catch an animal so that he could do whatever, maybe brand them, or give them a vaccination or whatever a rancher would want them to one of his animals. Chrisrus ( talk) 05:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Looking into this some more, I also found on this page http://www.elpresa.com/content/view/64/49/ this quote:
"It is a matter of fact that the word “presa” – object of the dispute – is referring to the “catching” task. The ancient “perros de presa” were so called because they were of help in the sacrifice of the cattle. More specifically, it is pertinent to cite one of the ordinances of the Tenerife Council, that the 5th of February, 1516 writes making reference to the dogs:: "...and only untie them in order to catch the cattle". Another Agreement – in this case original of the island of Fuerteventura, of October 21st 1624 sets:"...And this is intended in respect of the dogs, of hunt and of catch (de presa)”. So, “perros de presa” as they catch (“prenden” in Spanish) the bovine cattle, as auxiliaries during their sacrifices. For these reasons the word “presa” referred to the dog"
Again, though, the impression is that they aren't used this way anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
And from this page:
http://www.elpresa.com/content/view/26/49/, what is probably the oldest document to use the term that I've found, again the old Canary Island laws about catch dogs. The page, and the cite in general, is very badly translated, but the term "catch dog" is translated from "perro de presa", where "presa" is a Spanish word decended from the same Latin word we get the word "prisoner" from. "Le tomaron presa" = "They took him prisoner."
"..but that this law must not be intended against the butcher that must, for their job, cut and weigh the meat, and that everyone of them can have two dogs for the service of the butchers, keeping them tied at night and day, and that they be set free only to catch the cattle....and lays on Castellano and Gallinato to point out the dogs they want, in order to kill the wild dogs". "It is reminded to every person that own a catch-dog set free or wihout chain, that he can be killed by any persons without being punished". "For the damages caused to the cattle, domesticated and wild, it is ordered that everyone kill the cattle dog, remaining with only one dog or hunt dog and if it is a catch dog, it must be with the license of the Governor".
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus ( talk • contribs) 06:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Look at this document [ [1]]. This is definitive proof that the dog and the term have been in use in the Southern US culture since, it's safe to say the 1880s I can't make out the date, have a look. Can we find the ISBN of the book it comes from? Chrisrus ( talk) 03:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is suffering from a bad case of WP:LINKROT. We must find sources for these statements that have working links or someone might come along and delete them and there'd be nothing we could do about it. Chrisrus ( talk) 03:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
The first internal link, baiting, should be re-directed more specifically to hog baiting, an article which links here, rather than to the more general article that it presently links to. There is nothing we have found so far that conclusively links these dogs to anything but hog dogging an arena sport most often with bay dogs, who keep their distance. There is only one such event, Uncle Earl's Hog Dog Trials, at least the only one that Wikipedia knows of, in which uses catch dogs in a way that could be clearly described as baiting, while the bay dogs are regularly used this way in most "hog dog" shows in the southern United States. Also, it might be WP:UNDUE WEIGHT to include this minor purpose in the lead sentence. Chrisrus ( talk) 04:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Catch dog. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 18:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Catch dog. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
This article shouldn't be merged with "hunting dog" because, although hunters do use such dogs, so do many non-hunters, such as stockmen, farmers, and butchers. I suppose you could merge it both with "hunting dog" and "livestock dog" assuming such a page exists.
At the moment, this is an article about a word, so it could be sent to wikitionary. Hopefully, however, more information will be added, making more of an encyclopedia entry than a dictionary entry.
Praise to Tacosunday! Thank you for saving this article. You have done good work and deserve commendation.
I would like to do the following things: General, cleanup edits for flow and organization. Delete some of the initial stuff I wrote, as it is now not necessary to prove that such catch dogs exist and that was the whole reason I wrote it.
Also, we're going to need more references. Where can we find the proper citations for all this work you've done? You know that someone will come along and want to delete everything eventually which isn't properly cited. We can hold them off for awhile, and try to help, but it seems like you know more than me where they can be found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus ( talk • contribs) 01:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The "ElPresa" site seems to be a fairly reliable source. At the very least, it is evidence of this English term being used to translate the Spanish word "perro de presa" which referred to an historical dog. This historical in spanish uses the term "presa" to refer to a livestock working dog, and ElPresa translates this document into English as "catch dogs".
The document is interesting. The dog known to be closely related to the modern Perro de Presa Canario (which links here) which is known to be related to new-world pig catching dogs such as the Dogo Argentino, Pit Bull Terrier, and so on. The document says that the butcher need these dogs to do their work so neighbors should kill his dog as long as he keeps it under control and on his property in which case he can, he can shoot it. The dogs that http://www.elpresa.com/content/view/33/52/ translates "presas" as "catch dogs" when referring to them, those dogs were used "with indigenous cattle dogs from the beginning of the fifteenth century. These dogs served many purposes. They guarded the farms, helped catch and hold cattle, and exterminated wild or stray dogs".
This last use wouldn't constitute "catch dog" behavior, I suppose, because they were expected to dispatch the nusance animals, not just catch and hold them. Neither would guarding the farms. But catching and holding is catching and holding, so hunting dog is just one other use of such a dog.
I haven't seen any evidence that this practice survives to this day, do you? Have you ever heard of cattlemen or pig farmers using catch dogs on their own animals anymore? I suppose modern stockmanship has found more practical ways, but I can imagine a rancher appreciating dogs that could go catch an animal so that he could do whatever, maybe brand them, or give them a vaccination or whatever a rancher would want them to one of his animals. Chrisrus ( talk) 05:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Looking into this some more, I also found on this page http://www.elpresa.com/content/view/64/49/ this quote:
"It is a matter of fact that the word “presa” – object of the dispute – is referring to the “catching” task. The ancient “perros de presa” were so called because they were of help in the sacrifice of the cattle. More specifically, it is pertinent to cite one of the ordinances of the Tenerife Council, that the 5th of February, 1516 writes making reference to the dogs:: "...and only untie them in order to catch the cattle". Another Agreement – in this case original of the island of Fuerteventura, of October 21st 1624 sets:"...And this is intended in respect of the dogs, of hunt and of catch (de presa)”. So, “perros de presa” as they catch (“prenden” in Spanish) the bovine cattle, as auxiliaries during their sacrifices. For these reasons the word “presa” referred to the dog"
Again, though, the impression is that they aren't used this way anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
And from this page:
http://www.elpresa.com/content/view/26/49/, what is probably the oldest document to use the term that I've found, again the old Canary Island laws about catch dogs. The page, and the cite in general, is very badly translated, but the term "catch dog" is translated from "perro de presa", where "presa" is a Spanish word decended from the same Latin word we get the word "prisoner" from. "Le tomaron presa" = "They took him prisoner."
"..but that this law must not be intended against the butcher that must, for their job, cut and weigh the meat, and that everyone of them can have two dogs for the service of the butchers, keeping them tied at night and day, and that they be set free only to catch the cattle....and lays on Castellano and Gallinato to point out the dogs they want, in order to kill the wild dogs". "It is reminded to every person that own a catch-dog set free or wihout chain, that he can be killed by any persons without being punished". "For the damages caused to the cattle, domesticated and wild, it is ordered that everyone kill the cattle dog, remaining with only one dog or hunt dog and if it is a catch dog, it must be with the license of the Governor".
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus ( talk • contribs) 06:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Look at this document [ [1]]. This is definitive proof that the dog and the term have been in use in the Southern US culture since, it's safe to say the 1880s I can't make out the date, have a look. Can we find the ISBN of the book it comes from? Chrisrus ( talk) 03:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is suffering from a bad case of WP:LINKROT. We must find sources for these statements that have working links or someone might come along and delete them and there'd be nothing we could do about it. Chrisrus ( talk) 03:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
The first internal link, baiting, should be re-directed more specifically to hog baiting, an article which links here, rather than to the more general article that it presently links to. There is nothing we have found so far that conclusively links these dogs to anything but hog dogging an arena sport most often with bay dogs, who keep their distance. There is only one such event, Uncle Earl's Hog Dog Trials, at least the only one that Wikipedia knows of, in which uses catch dogs in a way that could be clearly described as baiting, while the bay dogs are regularly used this way in most "hog dog" shows in the southern United States. Also, it might be WP:UNDUE WEIGHT to include this minor purpose in the lead sentence. Chrisrus ( talk) 04:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Catch dog. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 18:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Catch dog. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:55, 1 August 2017 (UTC)