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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
" Christopher Columbus sailed from Barcelona on the voyage which took him to the Americas. "
Christopher Columnbus did not sail from Barcelona. He sailed from the Palos harbor, in Huelva (Andalusia).
And then, some Catalan historian claims Columbus departed from Pals (nowadays province of Girona).
What seems pretty clear is that on returning from his first voyage, Columbus met the kings Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile in Barcelona.
Perique, can you explain why you deleted the following paragraphs? -- Miguel
How about moving an unbiassed version of them to the article on the Catalan language?
Perique des Palottes 2002/07/23
I've taken out the above paragraph because
☮ Eclecticology 17:24 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
Why is Generalitat de Catalunya in the place where you are putting the indigenous names? Isn't it just the name of the local government? -- Error 01:53, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I would have written "Comunitat Autònoma de Catalunya" as indigenous name in Catalan, but in fact Generalitat de Catalunya means the system of government (like "Kingdom of Spain", "Portuguese Republic", etc.) and is much more used in Catalan than Comunitat Autònoma, which can be said to be a description rather than a name (like "Spanish State"). Therefore, even if my first impulse was to change this, I let it go since, for instances, in Spain, the name is "Kingdom of Spain". But if someone changes it, I won't change it either. User:Marco Neves
I think this definitely needs a rewrite. First of all, I think there are POV issues with many statements: e.g., I don't think a majority of people would think Pujol and his party as radicals ! The issue on which of PSC or ERC is more leftist is also very much POV, etc. 2nd, doesn't it focus too much on ongoing politics ? Oh, and Carod-Rovira is no longer conseller en cap. Xevi.
If you look on the website of the government of Catalonia, you see that both the Castilian "Generalidad de Cataluna" and the Catalan "Generalitat de Catalunya" are both listed as the title of the regional government. Therefore, both names are official. In addition, as Castilian is the national language, it is most correct to include the name of the government in both languages.
Llull keeps on making incorrect changes to this site. He claims he is making the changes because the link to the Catalan government website has been deleted, which is clearly not the case. In addition, he is wrongly asserting that "Catalunya" is the only correct spelling. This is only the case in the Catalan language. In Castilian, Catalunya is spelle "Cataluña," as I and other users on this page have shown to already be the case multiple times.
Responses from 140.247.135.196 (aka, Peter Wye)
"Who have write [sic] that "Catalunya" is correct in Spanish is 140.247.135.196 and I deleted this, because the Spanish (an unofficial form) is only Cataluña."
"Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196 is changing the name of all the pages where [sic] appear the Catalan name Generalitat de Catalunya by the Spanish (that NEVER have been official) name Generalidad de Cataluña, when de official name is in Catalan and the project is in English. "
"Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196..."
"Using the same arguments the table of USA should have the name both in English and Spanish because of there are more Spanish speakers in USA that in all Spain."
Again from Peter Wye. I have removed two links from the Catalonia page as they are highly inappropriate. For example, one refers to Catalonia as "a country between France and Spain." Feelings regarding Catalonian indpendence do not belong in a page that is giving information regarding Catalonia. Catalonia is currently not an indpendent country and any links that suggest so are incorrect.
To Peter:
A country or nation do not have to ve an "INDEPENDENT country" (as you say), to be just that: a country or nation. They might just as well be a country or nation military occupied by another one (for example, France or Spain). You shouldn't deny informed people the right to know that Catalonia IS a country and a nation (perhaps just because the majority of the Catalans feel that way) regardless of whether currently is independent or still military occupied.
Best Whishes,
Manel
First, your changes illustrate that you have strong feelings regarding Catalonia that are biasing your ability to write a neutral, unbiased article about Catalonia.
Second, because your changes are incorrect, do not reflect the status quo, and give deliberately misleading facts, I am correcting them.
I am largely referring to your comments in the “Politics of Catalonia section,” and will also address comments made in the discussion page.
Now I will be referring to comments directing at me on the discussion post.
---
To: Peter Wye From: Manuel
Dear Peter,
You'be proven to be an objective, well-informed man. Precisely because of that, I would like to call your attention on the following subject:
1. You seem to rely on what's "official" to assess what the truth is, and any other vision would be catalogued by you as "bias". Well, remember that what is official in Spain is mainly decided by the Spanish government, not the Catalan one, and in this sense is *strongly biased* because it only represents the opinion of one of the two interested parties in what the japanese Ko Tazawa calls "the castiglian-catalan conflict".
You should recognize that there are nations which, sadly, are not officially recognised by other countries: that's my point, they're still a nation. Maybe you didn't know that Croatian people were a nation of its own before the war against the Serbians. Thereafter it was clear that Croatia is and was a nation. PLEASE be critical when reading this, don't rely only on "what's official".
If follows that your view of what Catalonia is tremendously biased by the Spanish opinion, and it's very sad, that on the page about CATALONIA in Wikipedia, the CATALAN view is censored and only the Spanish view has a place.
2. How can I be so sure about this "catalan view"? or as you say: >>I have not come across any evidence that clearly shows that 51% or higher of >>the adult voting population in Catalonia supports independence from Spain.
YOU'RE RIGHT ! The majority of Catalans are not necessarily independestist but certainly nationalist: They want Catalonia to be recognised as a nation (whether remaining within the Spanish State or not).
If we took aside people living in Catalonia who see themselves as Spaniards and not Catalans (the migrants from other parts of Spain), I would say that the proportion of nationalist people would probably reach 80 to 90 percent, after 33 years of living in Catalonia and traveling a lot within its borders as a businessman. How long have you been in Catalonia? Be careful, I'm not talking about the whole "adult voting population in Catalonia" as you say, but only about the "Catalans" as opposed to those who came to Catalonia for a living but without wanting to become a Catalan, and some even hating Catalans.
3. You said: >>When Catalonia looks like France did in WWII, with German troops parading around the country, then I can say that it is militarily occupied...
Exacly that is what happened aroun 1659 when the combined Castiglian-French military forces occupied Catalonia, and later in again with Franco. (We've lost too many wars, but we're strong enough to remain a nation.) Your argument ist very weak there.
4. And Finally: You said >>If Catalonia had a similar arrangement as England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have within the United Kingdom as nations unified under one country, then I would agree with you.
Again, you're biased by paying only attention to "what's official" and not what it is in itself. Was Scotland a nation before the English wanted to recognise it as such? For most Scots certainly. Exactly as for most Catalans Catalonia is a nation and when Wikipedia writes about Catalonia only the view of foreigners is allowed, not that of the Catalans itself!
People who read about Catalonia on Wikipedia and thereafter travel to, say, Barcelona, will be disappointed about Wikipedia as soon as they get to know Catalan people (who are always ready to explain that Catalonia is a nation, especially to foreigners ;-) ) and see that the Catalan reality is not reflected on Wikipedia.
Please, think about it.
best whishes, Manel
P.D. Maybe we could agree on a compromise to include some lines about this Catalan reality on the page ??? Deal?
I have added PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español - Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) to the PSC as the latter is part of the PSOE federation and its official title is PSC-PSOE. I have also edited the fourth paragraph, where the entry implied that the rural areas are middle and highr class, to ...while the rural regions, and the middle and high-class urban areas, ...
I find this article, as it currently stands, non- NPOV. As it has been pointed out in this discussion page, it's clearly written from the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the country and riddled with inaccuracies and/or mischaracterisations. I will point out some of the obvious ones in the first part of the article alongside my proposed changes. I will try to revisit it latter on to work on the other sections, which are also in need of serious re-writing.
This is a tricky one, as defining Catalonia simply as a "region" is considered derogatory and often offensive by a sizable part of the population of Catalonia, who in general are perfectly happy to describe themselves as a "country". At the same time, the use of the expression "Spanish State", while common in Catalan and Spanish, precisely to emphasise the fact that Spain is a State composed of diverse nations, sounds a bit confusing to English ears.
At the very least, I would reword the above to say "Catalonia is an Autonomous Region in the north-east of Spain". I acknowledge this only addresses what Catalonia currently is as a political entity, leaving out its cultural and historical aspects, but I hope to redress that latter.
What is this "historic region" supposed to be? I will rephrase that as "historically, Catalonia included the comarques (sg: comarca) of Vallespir, Conflent, Fenolleda, Capcir, Alta Cerdanya and Rosselló, which following the Treaty of the Pyrenees became under French administration"
This is blatantly wrong--France does not have provinces. I'll change that to "and nowadays they form part of the département of Languedoc-Roussillon (66)"
Wrong again. To start with the term "Catalunya Nord" was coined in the 1970's by Llorenç Planes, a Rossellonese cultural activist, although a similar form, "Catalunya del Nord" had been used by Nostra Terra (Our Land), a cultural organisation founded in 1936 by Alfons Mias, another Rossellonese. Now, "Catalunya Nord" is used routinarily by Catalans from either side of the Pyrenees to describe the Catalan territories to the North, and does not have any political connotations. What's more, Nationalists, Catalanists, and Independentists from both sides simply use "Catalonia" to refer to the whole, ignoring the physical reality of the Franco-Spanish border and the cultural divergences after nearly 300 years of separation.
Consequently, I propose: "These territories are commonly referred to as Catalunya Nord"
There seems to be a confusion here between "Catalunya" and "Països Catalans" (lit., "Catalan Countries"), with the former generally referring to the Principality of Catalonia (including Catalunya Nord or not), and the latter being used to describe the areas sharing common linguistic and cultural traits with Catalonia, namely the ancient Kingdom of Valencia (nowadays Comunitat Valenciana), the Balearic Islands, the Catalan-speaking areas of Aragon, the Sardinian city of Alguer (Sard: Alighera, Italian: Alghero), Andorra, and of course, the Principality of Catalonia (including Catalunya Nord). In any case, the term "Països Catalans" does not seek to imply that all form a single nation (that's precisely why it's in plural form), and, contrary to popular belief, does not mean that those territories should share a single political future. It is no more politically charged than its rough counterparts, the Commonwealth or the Francophonie.
I find this passage very hard to correct right now, and in any case it doesn't belong to the head of the article. I'll simply remove it until I find a place for it, perhaps in the Language or Politics sections.
I'm aware of the discussion above, but the government of Catalonia is called the "Generalitat", it is not called "Generalidad" or "Generality", or anything else. Those terms are sometimes used for the convenience of those unfamiliar with Catalan realities, just as "Parliament" is sometimes used when one speaks of the Knesset in Israel or the Storting in Norway, however, the only form officially used by the Catalan Government is "Generalitat de Catalunya", in accordance with art. 2 of the Catalan Linguistic Policy Act.
I suggest "The Generalitat is the government of Catalonia, comprising its legislative and executive branches"
Whether one uses one name or another in Spanish does not belong to the English Wikipedia. I shall remove the above.
Whether it has ample autonomy is subjective, and actively disputed by many, including the current Catalan administration. That has to be deleted, changed or at the very least conditioned. I'm leaving it for the moment, thought, to see if someone can come up with a good replacement.
There are grammatical and stylistic problems with this. A mention of a Catalan police, and the roles of the State's security forces in Catalonia needs to be here, but not as a subordinate clause.
The language section needs a complete re-write. For example:
1.- It fails to mention that Catalan is the national language, except in the Aran Valley, as well as the importance of their language in the nation's sense of identity (which is why they are so fierce in defending it).
2.- It fails to mention the linguistic reality in the Aran Valley, and its importance as the only territory where Occitan currently has official status.
3.- There is a preposterous comment to the effect that Spaniards dislike Catalans because they speak their own language. Although I personally often hear stories of outsiders surprised at being addressed in Catalan, that can only be attributed to the visitor's lack of information or a biased attitude. I've also heard complaints from English speakers when they visit France and find out that many Gauls have a tendency to actually speak French in their own country, but how that would merit a mention in the Wikipedia escapes me.
4.- The comments about Catalan being the predominant language in the countryside and Barcelona being mostly Spanish speaking, while having some anecdotical basis tends to oversimplify things way too much, plus the fact that it implicitly considers important Catalan cities such as Girona and Tarragona as "the countryside", an assertion that I believe inhabitants of those cities would be inclined to dispute.
There are some really good statistics around which should be used as the basis for this section, I'll try to dig them out shortly.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
" Christopher Columbus sailed from Barcelona on the voyage which took him to the Americas. "
Christopher Columnbus did not sail from Barcelona. He sailed from the Palos harbor, in Huelva (Andalusia).
And then, some Catalan historian claims Columbus departed from Pals (nowadays province of Girona).
What seems pretty clear is that on returning from his first voyage, Columbus met the kings Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile in Barcelona.
Perique, can you explain why you deleted the following paragraphs? -- Miguel
How about moving an unbiassed version of them to the article on the Catalan language?
Perique des Palottes 2002/07/23
I've taken out the above paragraph because
☮ Eclecticology 17:24 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
Why is Generalitat de Catalunya in the place where you are putting the indigenous names? Isn't it just the name of the local government? -- Error 01:53, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I would have written "Comunitat Autònoma de Catalunya" as indigenous name in Catalan, but in fact Generalitat de Catalunya means the system of government (like "Kingdom of Spain", "Portuguese Republic", etc.) and is much more used in Catalan than Comunitat Autònoma, which can be said to be a description rather than a name (like "Spanish State"). Therefore, even if my first impulse was to change this, I let it go since, for instances, in Spain, the name is "Kingdom of Spain". But if someone changes it, I won't change it either. User:Marco Neves
I think this definitely needs a rewrite. First of all, I think there are POV issues with many statements: e.g., I don't think a majority of people would think Pujol and his party as radicals ! The issue on which of PSC or ERC is more leftist is also very much POV, etc. 2nd, doesn't it focus too much on ongoing politics ? Oh, and Carod-Rovira is no longer conseller en cap. Xevi.
If you look on the website of the government of Catalonia, you see that both the Castilian "Generalidad de Cataluna" and the Catalan "Generalitat de Catalunya" are both listed as the title of the regional government. Therefore, both names are official. In addition, as Castilian is the national language, it is most correct to include the name of the government in both languages.
Llull keeps on making incorrect changes to this site. He claims he is making the changes because the link to the Catalan government website has been deleted, which is clearly not the case. In addition, he is wrongly asserting that "Catalunya" is the only correct spelling. This is only the case in the Catalan language. In Castilian, Catalunya is spelle "Cataluña," as I and other users on this page have shown to already be the case multiple times.
Responses from 140.247.135.196 (aka, Peter Wye)
"Who have write [sic] that "Catalunya" is correct in Spanish is 140.247.135.196 and I deleted this, because the Spanish (an unofficial form) is only Cataluña."
"Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196 is changing the name of all the pages where [sic] appear the Catalan name Generalitat de Catalunya by the Spanish (that NEVER have been official) name Generalidad de Cataluña, when de official name is in Catalan and the project is in English. "
"Then it's absurd that for nationalist reasons 140.247.135.196..."
"Using the same arguments the table of USA should have the name both in English and Spanish because of there are more Spanish speakers in USA that in all Spain."
Again from Peter Wye. I have removed two links from the Catalonia page as they are highly inappropriate. For example, one refers to Catalonia as "a country between France and Spain." Feelings regarding Catalonian indpendence do not belong in a page that is giving information regarding Catalonia. Catalonia is currently not an indpendent country and any links that suggest so are incorrect.
To Peter:
A country or nation do not have to ve an "INDEPENDENT country" (as you say), to be just that: a country or nation. They might just as well be a country or nation military occupied by another one (for example, France or Spain). You shouldn't deny informed people the right to know that Catalonia IS a country and a nation (perhaps just because the majority of the Catalans feel that way) regardless of whether currently is independent or still military occupied.
Best Whishes,
Manel
First, your changes illustrate that you have strong feelings regarding Catalonia that are biasing your ability to write a neutral, unbiased article about Catalonia.
Second, because your changes are incorrect, do not reflect the status quo, and give deliberately misleading facts, I am correcting them.
I am largely referring to your comments in the “Politics of Catalonia section,” and will also address comments made in the discussion page.
Now I will be referring to comments directing at me on the discussion post.
---
To: Peter Wye From: Manuel
Dear Peter,
You'be proven to be an objective, well-informed man. Precisely because of that, I would like to call your attention on the following subject:
1. You seem to rely on what's "official" to assess what the truth is, and any other vision would be catalogued by you as "bias". Well, remember that what is official in Spain is mainly decided by the Spanish government, not the Catalan one, and in this sense is *strongly biased* because it only represents the opinion of one of the two interested parties in what the japanese Ko Tazawa calls "the castiglian-catalan conflict".
You should recognize that there are nations which, sadly, are not officially recognised by other countries: that's my point, they're still a nation. Maybe you didn't know that Croatian people were a nation of its own before the war against the Serbians. Thereafter it was clear that Croatia is and was a nation. PLEASE be critical when reading this, don't rely only on "what's official".
If follows that your view of what Catalonia is tremendously biased by the Spanish opinion, and it's very sad, that on the page about CATALONIA in Wikipedia, the CATALAN view is censored and only the Spanish view has a place.
2. How can I be so sure about this "catalan view"? or as you say: >>I have not come across any evidence that clearly shows that 51% or higher of >>the adult voting population in Catalonia supports independence from Spain.
YOU'RE RIGHT ! The majority of Catalans are not necessarily independestist but certainly nationalist: They want Catalonia to be recognised as a nation (whether remaining within the Spanish State or not).
If we took aside people living in Catalonia who see themselves as Spaniards and not Catalans (the migrants from other parts of Spain), I would say that the proportion of nationalist people would probably reach 80 to 90 percent, after 33 years of living in Catalonia and traveling a lot within its borders as a businessman. How long have you been in Catalonia? Be careful, I'm not talking about the whole "adult voting population in Catalonia" as you say, but only about the "Catalans" as opposed to those who came to Catalonia for a living but without wanting to become a Catalan, and some even hating Catalans.
3. You said: >>When Catalonia looks like France did in WWII, with German troops parading around the country, then I can say that it is militarily occupied...
Exacly that is what happened aroun 1659 when the combined Castiglian-French military forces occupied Catalonia, and later in again with Franco. (We've lost too many wars, but we're strong enough to remain a nation.) Your argument ist very weak there.
4. And Finally: You said >>If Catalonia had a similar arrangement as England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have within the United Kingdom as nations unified under one country, then I would agree with you.
Again, you're biased by paying only attention to "what's official" and not what it is in itself. Was Scotland a nation before the English wanted to recognise it as such? For most Scots certainly. Exactly as for most Catalans Catalonia is a nation and when Wikipedia writes about Catalonia only the view of foreigners is allowed, not that of the Catalans itself!
People who read about Catalonia on Wikipedia and thereafter travel to, say, Barcelona, will be disappointed about Wikipedia as soon as they get to know Catalan people (who are always ready to explain that Catalonia is a nation, especially to foreigners ;-) ) and see that the Catalan reality is not reflected on Wikipedia.
Please, think about it.
best whishes, Manel
P.D. Maybe we could agree on a compromise to include some lines about this Catalan reality on the page ??? Deal?
I have added PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español - Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) to the PSC as the latter is part of the PSOE federation and its official title is PSC-PSOE. I have also edited the fourth paragraph, where the entry implied that the rural areas are middle and highr class, to ...while the rural regions, and the middle and high-class urban areas, ...
I find this article, as it currently stands, non- NPOV. As it has been pointed out in this discussion page, it's clearly written from the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the country and riddled with inaccuracies and/or mischaracterisations. I will point out some of the obvious ones in the first part of the article alongside my proposed changes. I will try to revisit it latter on to work on the other sections, which are also in need of serious re-writing.
This is a tricky one, as defining Catalonia simply as a "region" is considered derogatory and often offensive by a sizable part of the population of Catalonia, who in general are perfectly happy to describe themselves as a "country". At the same time, the use of the expression "Spanish State", while common in Catalan and Spanish, precisely to emphasise the fact that Spain is a State composed of diverse nations, sounds a bit confusing to English ears.
At the very least, I would reword the above to say "Catalonia is an Autonomous Region in the north-east of Spain". I acknowledge this only addresses what Catalonia currently is as a political entity, leaving out its cultural and historical aspects, but I hope to redress that latter.
What is this "historic region" supposed to be? I will rephrase that as "historically, Catalonia included the comarques (sg: comarca) of Vallespir, Conflent, Fenolleda, Capcir, Alta Cerdanya and Rosselló, which following the Treaty of the Pyrenees became under French administration"
This is blatantly wrong--France does not have provinces. I'll change that to "and nowadays they form part of the département of Languedoc-Roussillon (66)"
Wrong again. To start with the term "Catalunya Nord" was coined in the 1970's by Llorenç Planes, a Rossellonese cultural activist, although a similar form, "Catalunya del Nord" had been used by Nostra Terra (Our Land), a cultural organisation founded in 1936 by Alfons Mias, another Rossellonese. Now, "Catalunya Nord" is used routinarily by Catalans from either side of the Pyrenees to describe the Catalan territories to the North, and does not have any political connotations. What's more, Nationalists, Catalanists, and Independentists from both sides simply use "Catalonia" to refer to the whole, ignoring the physical reality of the Franco-Spanish border and the cultural divergences after nearly 300 years of separation.
Consequently, I propose: "These territories are commonly referred to as Catalunya Nord"
There seems to be a confusion here between "Catalunya" and "Països Catalans" (lit., "Catalan Countries"), with the former generally referring to the Principality of Catalonia (including Catalunya Nord or not), and the latter being used to describe the areas sharing common linguistic and cultural traits with Catalonia, namely the ancient Kingdom of Valencia (nowadays Comunitat Valenciana), the Balearic Islands, the Catalan-speaking areas of Aragon, the Sardinian city of Alguer (Sard: Alighera, Italian: Alghero), Andorra, and of course, the Principality of Catalonia (including Catalunya Nord). In any case, the term "Països Catalans" does not seek to imply that all form a single nation (that's precisely why it's in plural form), and, contrary to popular belief, does not mean that those territories should share a single political future. It is no more politically charged than its rough counterparts, the Commonwealth or the Francophonie.
I find this passage very hard to correct right now, and in any case it doesn't belong to the head of the article. I'll simply remove it until I find a place for it, perhaps in the Language or Politics sections.
I'm aware of the discussion above, but the government of Catalonia is called the "Generalitat", it is not called "Generalidad" or "Generality", or anything else. Those terms are sometimes used for the convenience of those unfamiliar with Catalan realities, just as "Parliament" is sometimes used when one speaks of the Knesset in Israel or the Storting in Norway, however, the only form officially used by the Catalan Government is "Generalitat de Catalunya", in accordance with art. 2 of the Catalan Linguistic Policy Act.
I suggest "The Generalitat is the government of Catalonia, comprising its legislative and executive branches"
Whether one uses one name or another in Spanish does not belong to the English Wikipedia. I shall remove the above.
Whether it has ample autonomy is subjective, and actively disputed by many, including the current Catalan administration. That has to be deleted, changed or at the very least conditioned. I'm leaving it for the moment, thought, to see if someone can come up with a good replacement.
There are grammatical and stylistic problems with this. A mention of a Catalan police, and the roles of the State's security forces in Catalonia needs to be here, but not as a subordinate clause.
The language section needs a complete re-write. For example:
1.- It fails to mention that Catalan is the national language, except in the Aran Valley, as well as the importance of their language in the nation's sense of identity (which is why they are so fierce in defending it).
2.- It fails to mention the linguistic reality in the Aran Valley, and its importance as the only territory where Occitan currently has official status.
3.- There is a preposterous comment to the effect that Spaniards dislike Catalans because they speak their own language. Although I personally often hear stories of outsiders surprised at being addressed in Catalan, that can only be attributed to the visitor's lack of information or a biased attitude. I've also heard complaints from English speakers when they visit France and find out that many Gauls have a tendency to actually speak French in their own country, but how that would merit a mention in the Wikipedia escapes me.
4.- The comments about Catalan being the predominant language in the countryside and Barcelona being mostly Spanish speaking, while having some anecdotical basis tends to oversimplify things way too much, plus the fact that it implicitly considers important Catalan cities such as Girona and Tarragona as "the countryside", an assertion that I believe inhabitants of those cities would be inclined to dispute.
There are some really good statistics around which should be used as the basis for this section, I'll try to dig them out shortly.