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See here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalans Wathiik ( talk) 15:10, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with the introduction of this article, as User:Beethoven insists on keeping it. The question is whether "Catalans" should be defined as "an ethnic group" or as the people or citizens of Catalonia.
The reference provided by Beethoven to justify the use of the term "ethnic group" is the book One Europe, Many Nations by James B. Minahan. There are two problems with this. First, the source says "Catalans are a Romance people" - not mentioning the term "ethnic group" at all! Furthermore, this source is at least non-neutral, and to me rather unreliable. The author claims to be "an independent researcher living in Barcelona" and writes things like "[the Catalans] are known for their energy and intelligence", and suffered "a massive influx of peasant immigrants from Spain's backward south". Overall, the text of this book seems to be written from a 100% nationalist perspective.
There is no universal definition of the term "ethnic group" and it is never used in Spanish media or textbooks to describe the country's population. Not even the book by Mr Minahan uses it. Wikipedia should not adopt a definition of Catalans that no one else supports.
If Catalans are defined as the speakers of the Catalan language, then one can say that they form a linguistic community, but this is only one possible definition of the word Catalans, and it excludes many inhabitants of Catalonia as well as including many inhabitants of other territories.
The official term used in the Catalan statute of autonomy for Catalonia is "nationality". There was controversy in 2006, when the new version of the statute proposed to replace that word with "nation" and the change was finally rejected (Article 1).
The official definition of Catalans in the current statute of autonomy is "the citizens of Spain who live in Catalonia" (Art.7).
For these reasons, I propose to go back to the definition of Catalans as "officially, the citizens of Catalonia, an autonomous community in Spain and the inhabitants of the Roussillon historical region in southern France, today the Pyrénées Orientales department (...)". I am open to including the word "nationality" somewhere but taking care that the Rossillon should not be included in its scope. -- Hispalois ( talk) 15:46, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
We can't ignore the other articles about ethnic groups, like Occitans, Basques, Galicians, Bretons, Hungarians... Because there must be consistency between articles on same subjects, and we must respect neutrality. Your opinion against "ethnic groups" is a personal opinion that if applied, should be applied to all ethnic groups in Wikipedia. Which obviously won't happen. Therefore, we shouldn't make an exception for the Catalans when you still haven't provided an argumentation as for why Catalans aren't an ethnic group, while the other European ethnic groups are ethnic groups. It seems that you really want to make the Catalans an exceptional case.
According to the Oxford Dictionary an ethnic group is "a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." Other definitions associate an ethnic group with language, history, society, culture or nation. Catalans fit with this definitions as the other ethnic groups do.
The problem with your definition is that it simply isn't a correct definition for describing a group of people or ethnic group. Catalans do not only live in Catalonia, since there are Catalans in Northern Catalonia (they usually call themselves "Northern Catalans") and Catalans living abroad (Catalan diaspora). On the other hand, not all the people living in Catalonia are Catalans, like immigrants or expats.
Official documents don't say what you said, because there isn't an official definition as for what are the Catalans, Spaniards, Basques or Germans. The official law you keep referring to literally says this: The political condition of Catalans or citizens of Catalonia is enjoyed by Spanish citizens who have an administrative neighborhood in Catalonia. Their political rights are exercised in accordance with this Statute and laws (article 7 Statue of Autonomy of Catalonia). It's the Spanish law definition for the political condition of Catalans according to their administrative neighborhood. Not a definition of a group of people or ethnic group. It's like saying, in Spaniards' article that "Spaniards are the humans that fulfill the requisites for acquiring the Spanish citizenship".
I will edit the article to fix the sources.-- Beethoven ( talk) 19:12, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
We had already discussed this, Hispalois. On 13 July 2019 we agreed on a lead for this article, following same lead style as the ones we can find for the other ethnic groups in Wikipedia. But some weeks later, out of nowhere, on 30 July 2019 you unilaterally changed the lead, removing sources and deleting information. Without discussing anything on talk page. And now you are doing it again. What are your intentions here with this disruptive editing? -- Beethoven ( talk) 12:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Definition | Reference | Comments |
---|---|---|
"an ethnic group" | Tournon 2012, p.23 | But Tournon also speaks of the "ethnic pluralism" of Catalonia and of "ethnic tensions" inside Barcelona and between the capital city and the rest |
"an ethnic-national unit" | Cole 2011, p.67 | |
"an ethnolinguistic group" | Miller and Miller 1996 | |
"a Romance people" | Minahan 2000, p.156 | |
"the Spanish citizens who are resident of Catalonia" | Statute of Autonomy | |
"the inhabitants of the Roussillon" | Al Jazeera | |
"the inhabitants of all the regions where Catalan language is spoken" | ? | none of the three alleged references (Mannihan, expatica.com and the Statute of Autonomy) support this definition |
"Valencians are Catalan people too" | banner in Catalan pro-independence demonstration | very biased reference! |
We are not debating whether Catalans are or not an ethnic group here. This is not a matter of discussion, because Catalans clearly are an ethnic group. Like Basques or the Irish people. And since this article is about the Catalan ethnic group, it must follow the same style as the other ethnic groups in Wikipedia, for consistency. Which it already does, at least for the first phrase. Again, read Italians, Frenchs, Galicians, Greeks... all those articles have the same lead like the one for Catalans. And we shouldn't make an exception for the Catalans, when there's no reason for that. In the discussion that we had some weeks ago you asked for some sources where the Catalans are defined as an ethnic group, so that it could be included in the article. I included them, therefore this issue had been solved.
Defining Catalans, Basques, Germans, etc. is not problematic, since those are some of the most clear examples of ethnic groups that we can find in Europe. It's true, though, that some groups of people might be problematic to define, because they don't form ethnic groups, or they belong to another ethnic group, like the Murcian people for instance. But that is not the case of Catalans, which can be identified as a distinct European ethnic group and nation since many centuries ago, after the unification of the Catalan counties, when European texts begun to refer to the people living there as "Catalans", when Old Catalan begun to substitute Latin and the Catalan culture and legislation were being created. Since then until now, we can identify the characteristics of a clear ethnic group.
I know that you are focusing on Catalans just "because you want". I was only pointing that your attitude in this whole discussion is very weird, because of all the ethnic groups in the world you seemed to only be going against the Catalans, for no apparent reason at all. Despite the fact that you are not a Catalan yourself. I still don't understand what are your intentions here.
On the "legal definition" issue, let me tell you again that there is no legal definition for "Catalans". What you are saying simply doesn't exist. What you keep referring to is about the "political condition of Catalan" under a Spanish law from 2006, which is the way Spain is administered depending on the administrative neighborhood. That "political condition" is achieved after registering in a municipality (empadronamiento). But that's not a definition for "Catalans". Weeks ago I put you the example of the legal citizenship, which in the case of Catalans doesn't exist (because Catalonia is not an independent country at the moment), but if it existed, it sill wouldn't be a definition for Catalans. Which is why no ethnic group in Wikipedia has a legalistic definition: Germans are the human beings who have registered at the Federation of Admissions, have successfully passed an exam and thus fulfill the requisites for acquiring the German citizenship. You won't find that at any ethnic group, be it Swedes or Flemish people. There are other articles for this, like German nationality law. In Spain, Spanish nationality law, Political divisions of Spain, or Nationalities and regions of Spain.
About your first question: yes, of course that there are people with Spanish citizenship living in Catalonia who aren't Catalans. Spanish citizenship is a legal document acquired after being born. Every citizen in the world must have a citizenship. But many countries, like Spain, are formed by different nations and ethnic groups. In the case of Spain, a Basque might decide to come to live to Catalonia. Therefore, he's a Basque living in Catalonia. Not a Catalan. We can find lots of examples. A football player for instance, like Rafinha (footballer, born February 1993). He's a Brazilian footballer that also has the Spanish citizenship. He played for FC Barcelona for some years. Therefore, he was living in Catalonia with Spanish citizenship, but he wasn't a Catalan.
About your second question, yes of course that there are Catalans who are not Spanish citizens living in Catalonia. Northern Catalans (with French citizenship) are an example of people who can live in Catalonia without Spanish citizenship. Other examples are those within the Catalan diaspora. Be it Catalan Americans or whatever. If they are born in the European Union, they don't even need the Spanish citizenship to live in Catalonia.
About the Catalan Countries definition, looking at the older versions of the article I found this 2 sources [1] [2]. It's true that "Catalan" can also be used to refer to inhabitants of the Catalan Countries, as the Catalan dictionary says. Although is not that common. Instead of removing sources, we can simply add those two which are more reliable.
I don't think the lead needs to be rewritten. Definitely not the first phrase. It follows the same structure and definition of the other ethnic groups' articles. As it should be. The other lines maybe need a rewrite though, to make it more similar to the other ethnic groups, like Galicians or Basques (which also have population living in France, like Catalans) or Germans. I would remove the "official category" part about the Statue of Autonomy, since it's simply wrong, and only leave the Northern Catalonia part, explaining that this territory was originally part of Catalonia until it was ceded to France on the 17h century. I can edit that myself if you want. -- Beethoven ( talk) 23:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Let's be honest here. I'm not insisting on any "opinion". Which opinion exactly are we talking about? I'm just trying to keep this article as neutral and objective as the other ethnic groups' articles are. While you seem to be doing the opposite. As far as I know, the only opinion in this discussion is coming from you, that you seem so adamant on imposing, and for some reason only on this article.
Since the beginning of this article you have made very clear that you "don't like ethnic groups". Which is fine, that's a personal opinion you are free to have and nobody can't judge for your personal feelings. But this is not something that must be discussed here. If anything, your opinion about ethnic groups might have a place of discussion at Talk:Ethnic group, or maybe not even there. But definitely not here, at Catalans. Which is why I'm telling you that I don't understand what are you trying to do here. Catalans are an ethnic group, just like Germans, Bretons, Galicians, Swedes or Waloons are. We are not discussing whether Catalans are or aren't an ethnic group, because we can't discuss this. Catalans are an ethnic group just like the rest. So at the end, what we are really discussing here is your opinion about ethnic groups, which is a pointless discussion. Why don't you go to Germans article and remove the reference to ethnic group and then write a comment in talk page saying that you don't like ethnic groups? It's a pointless thing to do, right? Well same thing here. You not liking something doesn't make it disappear.
About the French Wikipedia, please remember that this is the English Wikipedia, and we must follow the English Wikipedia criteria. But anyway, at the French Wikipedia article " French people" they say that the Français "descend from different peoples". If you go to the French Wikipedia pages of such peoples, they are indeed defined as ethnic groups or peoples. For example: Les Occitans forment une ethnie d’Europe occidentale originaire de l’isthme entre Atlantique et Méditerranée connu sous le nom d’Occitanie. It's similar to what occurs with "Spaniards", which is a more recent term used to encompass different ethnic groups and peoples that are much older: Castillians, Aragaonese, Catalans, Valencians, Navarrese, etc.
About my examples, I never said anything about rights and obligations. About the Catalan Countries, saying that those sources (like IEC) are biased or linked to Catalan nationalism is like saying that the RAE is biased or linked to Spanish nationalism. Which doesn't make much sense. I'm going to reword that part of the article to make it more neutral. The Catalan Countries are the territories where the Catalan language is spoken. It's a linguistic and cultural term, because those territories share a common language, and to some extend similar culture and history (Catalan language was introduced in Valencia during Reconquista, when Catalans repopulated that new conquered territory). That's why some authors use the word "Catalan" to refer to those territories too, since they also speak Catalan. -- Beethoven ( talk) 14:07, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
References
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Catalans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:38, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
See here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalans Wathiik ( talk) 15:10, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with the introduction of this article, as User:Beethoven insists on keeping it. The question is whether "Catalans" should be defined as "an ethnic group" or as the people or citizens of Catalonia.
The reference provided by Beethoven to justify the use of the term "ethnic group" is the book One Europe, Many Nations by James B. Minahan. There are two problems with this. First, the source says "Catalans are a Romance people" - not mentioning the term "ethnic group" at all! Furthermore, this source is at least non-neutral, and to me rather unreliable. The author claims to be "an independent researcher living in Barcelona" and writes things like "[the Catalans] are known for their energy and intelligence", and suffered "a massive influx of peasant immigrants from Spain's backward south". Overall, the text of this book seems to be written from a 100% nationalist perspective.
There is no universal definition of the term "ethnic group" and it is never used in Spanish media or textbooks to describe the country's population. Not even the book by Mr Minahan uses it. Wikipedia should not adopt a definition of Catalans that no one else supports.
If Catalans are defined as the speakers of the Catalan language, then one can say that they form a linguistic community, but this is only one possible definition of the word Catalans, and it excludes many inhabitants of Catalonia as well as including many inhabitants of other territories.
The official term used in the Catalan statute of autonomy for Catalonia is "nationality". There was controversy in 2006, when the new version of the statute proposed to replace that word with "nation" and the change was finally rejected (Article 1).
The official definition of Catalans in the current statute of autonomy is "the citizens of Spain who live in Catalonia" (Art.7).
For these reasons, I propose to go back to the definition of Catalans as "officially, the citizens of Catalonia, an autonomous community in Spain and the inhabitants of the Roussillon historical region in southern France, today the Pyrénées Orientales department (...)". I am open to including the word "nationality" somewhere but taking care that the Rossillon should not be included in its scope. -- Hispalois ( talk) 15:46, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
We can't ignore the other articles about ethnic groups, like Occitans, Basques, Galicians, Bretons, Hungarians... Because there must be consistency between articles on same subjects, and we must respect neutrality. Your opinion against "ethnic groups" is a personal opinion that if applied, should be applied to all ethnic groups in Wikipedia. Which obviously won't happen. Therefore, we shouldn't make an exception for the Catalans when you still haven't provided an argumentation as for why Catalans aren't an ethnic group, while the other European ethnic groups are ethnic groups. It seems that you really want to make the Catalans an exceptional case.
According to the Oxford Dictionary an ethnic group is "a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." Other definitions associate an ethnic group with language, history, society, culture or nation. Catalans fit with this definitions as the other ethnic groups do.
The problem with your definition is that it simply isn't a correct definition for describing a group of people or ethnic group. Catalans do not only live in Catalonia, since there are Catalans in Northern Catalonia (they usually call themselves "Northern Catalans") and Catalans living abroad (Catalan diaspora). On the other hand, not all the people living in Catalonia are Catalans, like immigrants or expats.
Official documents don't say what you said, because there isn't an official definition as for what are the Catalans, Spaniards, Basques or Germans. The official law you keep referring to literally says this: The political condition of Catalans or citizens of Catalonia is enjoyed by Spanish citizens who have an administrative neighborhood in Catalonia. Their political rights are exercised in accordance with this Statute and laws (article 7 Statue of Autonomy of Catalonia). It's the Spanish law definition for the political condition of Catalans according to their administrative neighborhood. Not a definition of a group of people or ethnic group. It's like saying, in Spaniards' article that "Spaniards are the humans that fulfill the requisites for acquiring the Spanish citizenship".
I will edit the article to fix the sources.-- Beethoven ( talk) 19:12, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
We had already discussed this, Hispalois. On 13 July 2019 we agreed on a lead for this article, following same lead style as the ones we can find for the other ethnic groups in Wikipedia. But some weeks later, out of nowhere, on 30 July 2019 you unilaterally changed the lead, removing sources and deleting information. Without discussing anything on talk page. And now you are doing it again. What are your intentions here with this disruptive editing? -- Beethoven ( talk) 12:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Definition | Reference | Comments |
---|---|---|
"an ethnic group" | Tournon 2012, p.23 | But Tournon also speaks of the "ethnic pluralism" of Catalonia and of "ethnic tensions" inside Barcelona and between the capital city and the rest |
"an ethnic-national unit" | Cole 2011, p.67 | |
"an ethnolinguistic group" | Miller and Miller 1996 | |
"a Romance people" | Minahan 2000, p.156 | |
"the Spanish citizens who are resident of Catalonia" | Statute of Autonomy | |
"the inhabitants of the Roussillon" | Al Jazeera | |
"the inhabitants of all the regions where Catalan language is spoken" | ? | none of the three alleged references (Mannihan, expatica.com and the Statute of Autonomy) support this definition |
"Valencians are Catalan people too" | banner in Catalan pro-independence demonstration | very biased reference! |
We are not debating whether Catalans are or not an ethnic group here. This is not a matter of discussion, because Catalans clearly are an ethnic group. Like Basques or the Irish people. And since this article is about the Catalan ethnic group, it must follow the same style as the other ethnic groups in Wikipedia, for consistency. Which it already does, at least for the first phrase. Again, read Italians, Frenchs, Galicians, Greeks... all those articles have the same lead like the one for Catalans. And we shouldn't make an exception for the Catalans, when there's no reason for that. In the discussion that we had some weeks ago you asked for some sources where the Catalans are defined as an ethnic group, so that it could be included in the article. I included them, therefore this issue had been solved.
Defining Catalans, Basques, Germans, etc. is not problematic, since those are some of the most clear examples of ethnic groups that we can find in Europe. It's true, though, that some groups of people might be problematic to define, because they don't form ethnic groups, or they belong to another ethnic group, like the Murcian people for instance. But that is not the case of Catalans, which can be identified as a distinct European ethnic group and nation since many centuries ago, after the unification of the Catalan counties, when European texts begun to refer to the people living there as "Catalans", when Old Catalan begun to substitute Latin and the Catalan culture and legislation were being created. Since then until now, we can identify the characteristics of a clear ethnic group.
I know that you are focusing on Catalans just "because you want". I was only pointing that your attitude in this whole discussion is very weird, because of all the ethnic groups in the world you seemed to only be going against the Catalans, for no apparent reason at all. Despite the fact that you are not a Catalan yourself. I still don't understand what are your intentions here.
On the "legal definition" issue, let me tell you again that there is no legal definition for "Catalans". What you are saying simply doesn't exist. What you keep referring to is about the "political condition of Catalan" under a Spanish law from 2006, which is the way Spain is administered depending on the administrative neighborhood. That "political condition" is achieved after registering in a municipality (empadronamiento). But that's not a definition for "Catalans". Weeks ago I put you the example of the legal citizenship, which in the case of Catalans doesn't exist (because Catalonia is not an independent country at the moment), but if it existed, it sill wouldn't be a definition for Catalans. Which is why no ethnic group in Wikipedia has a legalistic definition: Germans are the human beings who have registered at the Federation of Admissions, have successfully passed an exam and thus fulfill the requisites for acquiring the German citizenship. You won't find that at any ethnic group, be it Swedes or Flemish people. There are other articles for this, like German nationality law. In Spain, Spanish nationality law, Political divisions of Spain, or Nationalities and regions of Spain.
About your first question: yes, of course that there are people with Spanish citizenship living in Catalonia who aren't Catalans. Spanish citizenship is a legal document acquired after being born. Every citizen in the world must have a citizenship. But many countries, like Spain, are formed by different nations and ethnic groups. In the case of Spain, a Basque might decide to come to live to Catalonia. Therefore, he's a Basque living in Catalonia. Not a Catalan. We can find lots of examples. A football player for instance, like Rafinha (footballer, born February 1993). He's a Brazilian footballer that also has the Spanish citizenship. He played for FC Barcelona for some years. Therefore, he was living in Catalonia with Spanish citizenship, but he wasn't a Catalan.
About your second question, yes of course that there are Catalans who are not Spanish citizens living in Catalonia. Northern Catalans (with French citizenship) are an example of people who can live in Catalonia without Spanish citizenship. Other examples are those within the Catalan diaspora. Be it Catalan Americans or whatever. If they are born in the European Union, they don't even need the Spanish citizenship to live in Catalonia.
About the Catalan Countries definition, looking at the older versions of the article I found this 2 sources [1] [2]. It's true that "Catalan" can also be used to refer to inhabitants of the Catalan Countries, as the Catalan dictionary says. Although is not that common. Instead of removing sources, we can simply add those two which are more reliable.
I don't think the lead needs to be rewritten. Definitely not the first phrase. It follows the same structure and definition of the other ethnic groups' articles. As it should be. The other lines maybe need a rewrite though, to make it more similar to the other ethnic groups, like Galicians or Basques (which also have population living in France, like Catalans) or Germans. I would remove the "official category" part about the Statue of Autonomy, since it's simply wrong, and only leave the Northern Catalonia part, explaining that this territory was originally part of Catalonia until it was ceded to France on the 17h century. I can edit that myself if you want. -- Beethoven ( talk) 23:52, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Let's be honest here. I'm not insisting on any "opinion". Which opinion exactly are we talking about? I'm just trying to keep this article as neutral and objective as the other ethnic groups' articles are. While you seem to be doing the opposite. As far as I know, the only opinion in this discussion is coming from you, that you seem so adamant on imposing, and for some reason only on this article.
Since the beginning of this article you have made very clear that you "don't like ethnic groups". Which is fine, that's a personal opinion you are free to have and nobody can't judge for your personal feelings. But this is not something that must be discussed here. If anything, your opinion about ethnic groups might have a place of discussion at Talk:Ethnic group, or maybe not even there. But definitely not here, at Catalans. Which is why I'm telling you that I don't understand what are you trying to do here. Catalans are an ethnic group, just like Germans, Bretons, Galicians, Swedes or Waloons are. We are not discussing whether Catalans are or aren't an ethnic group, because we can't discuss this. Catalans are an ethnic group just like the rest. So at the end, what we are really discussing here is your opinion about ethnic groups, which is a pointless discussion. Why don't you go to Germans article and remove the reference to ethnic group and then write a comment in talk page saying that you don't like ethnic groups? It's a pointless thing to do, right? Well same thing here. You not liking something doesn't make it disappear.
About the French Wikipedia, please remember that this is the English Wikipedia, and we must follow the English Wikipedia criteria. But anyway, at the French Wikipedia article " French people" they say that the Français "descend from different peoples". If you go to the French Wikipedia pages of such peoples, they are indeed defined as ethnic groups or peoples. For example: Les Occitans forment une ethnie d’Europe occidentale originaire de l’isthme entre Atlantique et Méditerranée connu sous le nom d’Occitanie. It's similar to what occurs with "Spaniards", which is a more recent term used to encompass different ethnic groups and peoples that are much older: Castillians, Aragaonese, Catalans, Valencians, Navarrese, etc.
About my examples, I never said anything about rights and obligations. About the Catalan Countries, saying that those sources (like IEC) are biased or linked to Catalan nationalism is like saying that the RAE is biased or linked to Spanish nationalism. Which doesn't make much sense. I'm going to reword that part of the article to make it more neutral. The Catalan Countries are the territories where the Catalan language is spoken. It's a linguistic and cultural term, because those territories share a common language, and to some extend similar culture and history (Catalan language was introduced in Valencia during Reconquista, when Catalans repopulated that new conquered territory). That's why some authors use the word "Catalan" to refer to those territories too, since they also speak Catalan. -- Beethoven ( talk) 14:07, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
References