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Hola! Viva Catalunya! but... there is no doubt that Franco tried to rewrite history, as such you can talk of historical revisionism (the distinction between historical revisionism and historical revisionism (political) is, to my knowledge, of no scientific value...). But, negationism? See the talk page of negationism: this is originally a french term reserved to Holocaust denial. I fully agreed that they are more than one genocide, but think that negationism, for the time being, is primarily associated to the Holocaust. Why not change the page name on "Historical revisionism (Catalunya)"? As such, it would go in neatly with Historical revisionism (Japan)... Kaliz 13:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Kaliz remarks. --
Joan sense nick 18:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the suggestion of changing this into Historical revisionism. Also, this article doesn't meet the standards of quality needed and has a partial POV. Thus said, I don't really think Franco time-travelled to 2001 to hit the Twin Towers, as user 80.39.73.159 suggests, so I'm going to modify the article.-- Ankalagon 23:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I have been working on the article historical revisionism (political) and looking for examples of negationism, so far I have found only two clear examples via Google which are not directly related to Holocaust denial:
Currently a Google on ["Catalan negationism"] returns about 25 English pages for "Catalan negationism" all of the AFAICT this article. Unless there is a verifiable reliable source which uses the term "Catalan negationism" it should be renamed as Wikipedia should not create neologisms, see Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Boys, i don't understand how you didn't caught them. Proceding line by line
Catalan negationism or Catalan negationism refers to the negationism intents
Kaliz saw it, negationism is a Holocaust Denier synonym. It was no slip. Look at the original catalan article.
of the Spanish dictatorship of Franco to deny the history of Catalunya as an independent nation
Call it ironical. Basically the view that any part of the Crown of Aragon was independent is relatively new in historiography. and was fundamentally developed by the school of Jaume Vicens Vives, created while he was full tenured professor at the University of Barcelona, during Franco's time. IIRC, Ferran Soldevilla and others held this view prior, but they were considered somewhat out of the mainstream in their times. Castilian-centric view of the history of Spain had been a watermark of liberal historians of the XIX, and was pretty much mainstream when the war started (so Franco's regime didn't invent anything).
The crux of all of this, is what independence means in a time where souveranity was vested ONLY in the head of state, -everywhere before the French Revolution.
recognised by the Corbeil Treaty (1245) ([1] [2] [3] and many others)
See above. The date is wrong (is 1258) and came from the wikipedia article (i've already corrected this). Anyway, the feudal rights the french king had over the county of Barcelona, were already wet paper a couple of centuries ago.
and its Catalan constitutions,
No idea what this has to do with independence. Never heard that the Furs said anything along the lines of Catalonia is an independent nation. Basically because the term nation, in our modern political sense, wasn't invented when they were abolished.
denies or trivialisates the crimes against humanity of the genocide in the Spanish Civil War, to the point that it is often referred as the Glorious Salvation of Spain.
Who on the hell is doing it now ? There is a lot of discussion of how many deads where in each side, and how the killing operated, but i see no trivializing. It's true sometimes things that sound like my deads where victims, yours collateral damage slip. But both parties do, and i'd rather say more often on the left side.
And, most curious but revealing, genocide is a term only used in, this context, just prior to bashing the other party. By both sides, again. Anyone 'in the know' should have noticed
Franco abolished the old institutions of the old Crown of Aragon,
No comment. Off by 225 years !!! Thanks god, Kaliz got it.
shooted the President of the Generalitat de Catalunya on 1945, Lluis Companys
Joan, how could you pass on this ? You know it was 1940. And does it have any sense in this context?
and was condemned on 1946 by the UN [4]
At least a true statement. But what it means here ?
He also rewrote the History of Spain
Franco was even a script writer but I didn't knew he was an historian. It's the biggest discovery of the article ;-) Seriously, no attempt to rewrite history was officialy made, 1984 style. Even more, the most impressing work on history during Franco's period ( Ramón Menendez Pidal's history, partly under official auspices) included volumes from noted republicans like Claudio Sanchez Albornoz, later president of the Republic in the exile, and contemporaneus history was put under the surveillance of noted liberal Miguel Artola.
starting on the Castillian and Aragonese dinastic union from 1475, after which the Kingdom of Aragon and the Counts of Barcelona still had their won laws, constitutions, taxes, tribunals, economy and traditions, for at least another three hundred years.
Hard to understand what's meant here. I guess it should read along the lines History of Spain as a country started at the dinastic union in 1474 (once again a wrong date)... instead of 1714 when ... were abolished. I wonder how many serious historians in the 30's and 40's would agree with the author (nor even now), that it is heresy or historical revisionism. A difference in approach might be ...
It is still actually argued by some members of the People's Party (Spain) and Federico Jiménez Losantos.
And that's the masterpiece. What is argued? History no (at least I don't know the PP has a sanctioned history book) FJL is a thorn in the side of many politician and frecuently mocks their historical views, but i don't get the relationship. Methinks it's an attempt to link both with Holocaust Deniers. I'd say just Political Propaganda, and one of the worst written besides
With articles like this, who'd trust Wikipedia? And poor old Catalonia if this article mirrors the cultural level nowadays -- Wllacer 11:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Wllacer pretends: Basically the view that any part of the Crown of Aragon was independent is relatively new in historiography. How is then than on the XIth century, the Crown of Aragon had already a Constitution? it's hilarius -- Paco ✉ 15:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What else can I say? - Jmabel | Talk 02:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
As discussed on this talk page the name of this page contains a neologism and in line with Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms, it ought to be renamed. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 15:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on December 16, 2005. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
|
Hola! Viva Catalunya! but... there is no doubt that Franco tried to rewrite history, as such you can talk of historical revisionism (the distinction between historical revisionism and historical revisionism (political) is, to my knowledge, of no scientific value...). But, negationism? See the talk page of negationism: this is originally a french term reserved to Holocaust denial. I fully agreed that they are more than one genocide, but think that negationism, for the time being, is primarily associated to the Holocaust. Why not change the page name on "Historical revisionism (Catalunya)"? As such, it would go in neatly with Historical revisionism (Japan)... Kaliz 13:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Kaliz remarks. --
Joan sense nick 18:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the suggestion of changing this into Historical revisionism. Also, this article doesn't meet the standards of quality needed and has a partial POV. Thus said, I don't really think Franco time-travelled to 2001 to hit the Twin Towers, as user 80.39.73.159 suggests, so I'm going to modify the article.-- Ankalagon 23:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I have been working on the article historical revisionism (political) and looking for examples of negationism, so far I have found only two clear examples via Google which are not directly related to Holocaust denial:
Currently a Google on ["Catalan negationism"] returns about 25 English pages for "Catalan negationism" all of the AFAICT this article. Unless there is a verifiable reliable source which uses the term "Catalan negationism" it should be renamed as Wikipedia should not create neologisms, see Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms -- Philip Baird Shearer 20:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Boys, i don't understand how you didn't caught them. Proceding line by line
Catalan negationism or Catalan negationism refers to the negationism intents
Kaliz saw it, negationism is a Holocaust Denier synonym. It was no slip. Look at the original catalan article.
of the Spanish dictatorship of Franco to deny the history of Catalunya as an independent nation
Call it ironical. Basically the view that any part of the Crown of Aragon was independent is relatively new in historiography. and was fundamentally developed by the school of Jaume Vicens Vives, created while he was full tenured professor at the University of Barcelona, during Franco's time. IIRC, Ferran Soldevilla and others held this view prior, but they were considered somewhat out of the mainstream in their times. Castilian-centric view of the history of Spain had been a watermark of liberal historians of the XIX, and was pretty much mainstream when the war started (so Franco's regime didn't invent anything).
The crux of all of this, is what independence means in a time where souveranity was vested ONLY in the head of state, -everywhere before the French Revolution.
recognised by the Corbeil Treaty (1245) ([1] [2] [3] and many others)
See above. The date is wrong (is 1258) and came from the wikipedia article (i've already corrected this). Anyway, the feudal rights the french king had over the county of Barcelona, were already wet paper a couple of centuries ago.
and its Catalan constitutions,
No idea what this has to do with independence. Never heard that the Furs said anything along the lines of Catalonia is an independent nation. Basically because the term nation, in our modern political sense, wasn't invented when they were abolished.
denies or trivialisates the crimes against humanity of the genocide in the Spanish Civil War, to the point that it is often referred as the Glorious Salvation of Spain.
Who on the hell is doing it now ? There is a lot of discussion of how many deads where in each side, and how the killing operated, but i see no trivializing. It's true sometimes things that sound like my deads where victims, yours collateral damage slip. But both parties do, and i'd rather say more often on the left side.
And, most curious but revealing, genocide is a term only used in, this context, just prior to bashing the other party. By both sides, again. Anyone 'in the know' should have noticed
Franco abolished the old institutions of the old Crown of Aragon,
No comment. Off by 225 years !!! Thanks god, Kaliz got it.
shooted the President of the Generalitat de Catalunya on 1945, Lluis Companys
Joan, how could you pass on this ? You know it was 1940. And does it have any sense in this context?
and was condemned on 1946 by the UN [4]
At least a true statement. But what it means here ?
He also rewrote the History of Spain
Franco was even a script writer but I didn't knew he was an historian. It's the biggest discovery of the article ;-) Seriously, no attempt to rewrite history was officialy made, 1984 style. Even more, the most impressing work on history during Franco's period ( Ramón Menendez Pidal's history, partly under official auspices) included volumes from noted republicans like Claudio Sanchez Albornoz, later president of the Republic in the exile, and contemporaneus history was put under the surveillance of noted liberal Miguel Artola.
starting on the Castillian and Aragonese dinastic union from 1475, after which the Kingdom of Aragon and the Counts of Barcelona still had their won laws, constitutions, taxes, tribunals, economy and traditions, for at least another three hundred years.
Hard to understand what's meant here. I guess it should read along the lines History of Spain as a country started at the dinastic union in 1474 (once again a wrong date)... instead of 1714 when ... were abolished. I wonder how many serious historians in the 30's and 40's would agree with the author (nor even now), that it is heresy or historical revisionism. A difference in approach might be ...
It is still actually argued by some members of the People's Party (Spain) and Federico Jiménez Losantos.
And that's the masterpiece. What is argued? History no (at least I don't know the PP has a sanctioned history book) FJL is a thorn in the side of many politician and frecuently mocks their historical views, but i don't get the relationship. Methinks it's an attempt to link both with Holocaust Deniers. I'd say just Political Propaganda, and one of the worst written besides
With articles like this, who'd trust Wikipedia? And poor old Catalonia if this article mirrors the cultural level nowadays -- Wllacer 11:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Wllacer pretends: Basically the view that any part of the Crown of Aragon was independent is relatively new in historiography. How is then than on the XIth century, the Crown of Aragon had already a Constitution? it's hilarius -- Paco ✉ 15:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What else can I say? - Jmabel | Talk 02:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
As discussed on this talk page the name of this page contains a neologism and in line with Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms, it ought to be renamed. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 15:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)