This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Perhaps the quote is incorrect. "Hearsay" would make more sense here. Taco Deposit 16:14, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
"It has been alleged" -- grr. If we are going to say that someone has done something heinous, we have got to indicate by whom and when. Jgm 21:04, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
How should we refer to him in the article? Continue with the slashed name, one throughout, or refer to him by his legal name at the time of the event (i.e. "Stevens" before his conversion to Islam, "Islam" after)? I personally support the use of one name throughout, merely for readability's sake. Whosyourjudas 03:29, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I think that we should change the name into " Yusuf Islam" since he did change his name, and therefore Islam is his legitimate name. - 68.72.121.215 02:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My suggestion would be to refer to him according to whatever name he was using at a given time: "Stephen Georgiou" in references to events before his pop career, "Cat Stevens" during, and "Yusuf Islam" post-conversion. Technically speaking, "Yusuf Islam" was not doing anything in 1965. -- Mr. A. 02:37, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I think it would be kind of innapropriate to use his previous name it would be as if we today started calling Muhammed Ali (the Boxer) by his first name Cassius Clay just because people also know him by that name. However, I think to satisfy everyone we should propose that when an individual is known by two names we should put it up by their previous name with a / then the new name...like this
"Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam"
But, we should also take note that in a legal situation since Cat Stevens did change his name to Yusuf Islam. This situation is pretty tricky but I say we should put up a proposal to put individuals with 2 names to be named with both of them. Users who are looking for either name would be able to find the same page regardless of the name the user had searched for. Ali Siddiqui 7:41, October 23, 2005
As part of a significant expansion of the article (particular Cat Stevens' musical career), I've also changed references to his name post-conversion to Yusuf Islam. The fact that the man has had multiple names is explained in the lead and clarified throughout the article; there is no reason not to refer to him by the "correct" name as it applies to the stages of his life. Glad to discuss here. Jgm 01:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
What I want to know:
Does someone know?
Because what the news reported on this I can only describe as insufficient. Ropers 04:12, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I believe the subjects on the watchlist are not supposed to be told, even when delayed or denied travel. He was supposed to have been stopped before boarding. - R. S. Shaw 04:46, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
I've reduced this section substantially by deleting most of the text. This is because its size was disproportionate to the rest of the article. Please don't insert it back in again - if anyone thinks it's important, set up a new page about it. Jongarrettuk 19:06, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I gather that the point of contention leading to the RfC was mainly between having the Denial of Entry section be 1 para as now, or the same plus 6 more paras, as in this version. (Also, external links to 3 news sources seem to be coming and going.)
Well, the elapsed time does not allow good perspective, but the subject does seem to be noteworthy. The 7-para version does seem too wordy and a bit long, although I don't think it ruins the article because it occupies say 40% of the whole. The 1-para version definitely doesn't say enough; for instance, it doesn't even mention the airliner being diverted to Boston, a rather striking action.
I'd favor including the second para ("Guardian") plus some additional covering the remaining 5 paras. How much that should be condensed isn't obvious, but about 3 more medium paras feels fairly good to me. (I don't know enough wikism to opine on whether a separate article page is warranted.) - R. S. Shaw 04:35, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
I agree that not all the information is necessary (some of the quotes are only of passing interest), but some of it should be re-added, and the disparity in lengths fixed by adding more information on his musical career. Just because the article is weak and stubbish in that respect doesn't mean we have to make the entire thing uniformly weak and stubbish. In particular, the information that he was deported from Israel four years ago for a similar reason is an interesting note. -- Delirium 04:54, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
As much as possible, Yusef Islam's (the former Cat Stevens) anti-USA views which kept him out of USA, out to be exposed. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:16, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
ABC Nightly News ran another story on this issue last night, and an interview with Yusuf Islam (although the reporter made no mention of his call for the murder of Salman Rushdie). ABC was unable to get a US government representative to discuss the issue at all. But that's not really surprising, since they have fought in court to prevent it coming out that they even HAVE a don't fly list, let alone why somebody might be on it. Rick K 18:17, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
Newsnight (a nightly UK news magazine programme) did a section yesterday showing them following British foreign secretary Jack Straw at the United Nations (footage from this programme of him shaking Robert Mugabe's hand made the front pages in teh UK). In it Straw mentioned discussing Yusuf Islam with Colin Powell and that he (Straw) had always found Islam to be a good, trustworthy member of the Muslim community (well, words similar to it). 2 interesting points out of this for me: (1) The British Government don't understnad how Islam could get on a watchlist (indeed they're even giving him character references!); (2) It is a point that's been taken up seriously at an international level. That said, I still think the whole issue is a small footnote in Islam's life, and a not overly long section in the article will suffice. Certainly time will tell. Jongarrettuk 18:58, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I also agree that the "Denial of entry into the U.S." section could contain more information, but I think a lengthy paragraph about Zakat is not necessary, especially one beginning with the inherently POV phrase "It should be kept in mind..." Taco Deposit | Talk-o Deposit 17:17, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
I strongly urge that the "denial of entry" section be moved into a separate article. That way, people can write as much as they like on this subject, and the Cat Stevens article doesn't get skewed. Does anybody disagree with this? -- Auximines 23:56, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please will those who keep adding information and links about the recent denial of entry to the US explain why they think it is so important? -- Auximines 22:29, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Ironically, given his later conversion to Islam, his Greek heritage led to him being very anti-Muslim" Unless if there is some source this seems to me a total misunderstanding. Cat Stevens wasn't Greek but Cypriot. Cyprus was independant coutry were a Greek communauty and a Turk were communauty living in peace until a group of greek extremists backed by the Greek military dictorship caused a civil war. A lot Greek Cypriots disapproved this policy. In fact they finally ousted the goverment responsible for the war. Ericd 03:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What in the world is this: The logic pretty much went like this: Greeks hate Turks; Turks are Muslim.
OK I just wanted a source. I think it's better to attribute theis kind of sentence to Cat Stevens himself in the article. Ericd 09:19, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ericd 18:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The quote provided, I feel, has been taken out of context and given the statements made by Yusuf Islam in 1989 seen here and here, I'm taking the liberty of re-writing the section on Rushdie to be a little more NPOV. Sherurcij 06:12, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I find it remarkable that wikipedia can't provide a quote from the actual Kingston Polytechnic comment on the Rushdie Fatwa. Is there no accurate source for what he said at Kingston? Funkyj 17:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Let's drop the subjective language. It's as though he wrote it all, even when he didn't. -- VKokielov 01:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Didn't he?-- 220.238.73.6 07:27, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Note: This vote is already closed. Please stop voting. -- Hottentot
There has been a pagemove war here, moving back and forth between Cat Stevens and Yusuf Islam. As a third party, I have protected against pagemoves and have added a move request so that broader feedback can be obtained. I will also add a note to Wikipedia:Current surveys.
Note also that protecting pages against page moves requires freezing on one title or the other (just like protecting pages against editing requires freezing on one version or the other) and this does not constitute an endorsement of one title or the other. The move request is accordingly phrased as a move request to the other title, which likewise does not constitute an endorsement of the move. -- Curps 21:40, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The following votes were cast after the "decision" (cited below) not to move the page based on votes cast between October 10 and approximately 0300 October 15:
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 03:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how long the Yusef/Cat Stevens debate has been going on, but I do notice that the section on Cat Stevens -- the artist -- is very sparse. There's no insight into his musical stylings, song lyrics, etc. I mean it's common knowledge that his famous song "Lady D'Arbanville" was inspired (in some fashion) by the actress Patti D'Arbanville. I don't have a great deal of knowledge of his professional career (so my writing would be more of a hindrance than a help), but someone must have access to some decent biographical information on him. The section on Yusef Islam and his charitable works, etc. could also use more work, but the lack of Cat Stevens info hit me first because that's what I was searching for.
Many of the links are outdated and no longer work. I believe, for the sake of the amount of attention this article has recieved, they should be revised. Rjfleming84 19:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, what in the heck does "Discision" mean? I'll leave it to edit by the author if he meant "decision", rather than just changing it without prior discussion. Delete this comment when taken care of, as it doesn't pertain to the article itself, merely context.
Rjfleming84
19:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Perhaps the quote is incorrect. "Hearsay" would make more sense here. Taco Deposit 16:14, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
"It has been alleged" -- grr. If we are going to say that someone has done something heinous, we have got to indicate by whom and when. Jgm 21:04, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
How should we refer to him in the article? Continue with the slashed name, one throughout, or refer to him by his legal name at the time of the event (i.e. "Stevens" before his conversion to Islam, "Islam" after)? I personally support the use of one name throughout, merely for readability's sake. Whosyourjudas 03:29, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I think that we should change the name into " Yusuf Islam" since he did change his name, and therefore Islam is his legitimate name. - 68.72.121.215 02:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- My suggestion would be to refer to him according to whatever name he was using at a given time: "Stephen Georgiou" in references to events before his pop career, "Cat Stevens" during, and "Yusuf Islam" post-conversion. Technically speaking, "Yusuf Islam" was not doing anything in 1965. -- Mr. A. 02:37, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I think it would be kind of innapropriate to use his previous name it would be as if we today started calling Muhammed Ali (the Boxer) by his first name Cassius Clay just because people also know him by that name. However, I think to satisfy everyone we should propose that when an individual is known by two names we should put it up by their previous name with a / then the new name...like this
"Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam"
But, we should also take note that in a legal situation since Cat Stevens did change his name to Yusuf Islam. This situation is pretty tricky but I say we should put up a proposal to put individuals with 2 names to be named with both of them. Users who are looking for either name would be able to find the same page regardless of the name the user had searched for. Ali Siddiqui 7:41, October 23, 2005
As part of a significant expansion of the article (particular Cat Stevens' musical career), I've also changed references to his name post-conversion to Yusuf Islam. The fact that the man has had multiple names is explained in the lead and clarified throughout the article; there is no reason not to refer to him by the "correct" name as it applies to the stages of his life. Glad to discuss here. Jgm 01:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
What I want to know:
Does someone know?
Because what the news reported on this I can only describe as insufficient. Ropers 04:12, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I believe the subjects on the watchlist are not supposed to be told, even when delayed or denied travel. He was supposed to have been stopped before boarding. - R. S. Shaw 04:46, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
I've reduced this section substantially by deleting most of the text. This is because its size was disproportionate to the rest of the article. Please don't insert it back in again - if anyone thinks it's important, set up a new page about it. Jongarrettuk 19:06, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I gather that the point of contention leading to the RfC was mainly between having the Denial of Entry section be 1 para as now, or the same plus 6 more paras, as in this version. (Also, external links to 3 news sources seem to be coming and going.)
Well, the elapsed time does not allow good perspective, but the subject does seem to be noteworthy. The 7-para version does seem too wordy and a bit long, although I don't think it ruins the article because it occupies say 40% of the whole. The 1-para version definitely doesn't say enough; for instance, it doesn't even mention the airliner being diverted to Boston, a rather striking action.
I'd favor including the second para ("Guardian") plus some additional covering the remaining 5 paras. How much that should be condensed isn't obvious, but about 3 more medium paras feels fairly good to me. (I don't know enough wikism to opine on whether a separate article page is warranted.) - R. S. Shaw 04:35, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
I agree that not all the information is necessary (some of the quotes are only of passing interest), but some of it should be re-added, and the disparity in lengths fixed by adding more information on his musical career. Just because the article is weak and stubbish in that respect doesn't mean we have to make the entire thing uniformly weak and stubbish. In particular, the information that he was deported from Israel four years ago for a similar reason is an interesting note. -- Delirium 04:54, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
As much as possible, Yusef Islam's (the former Cat Stevens) anti-USA views which kept him out of USA, out to be exposed. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:16, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
ABC Nightly News ran another story on this issue last night, and an interview with Yusuf Islam (although the reporter made no mention of his call for the murder of Salman Rushdie). ABC was unable to get a US government representative to discuss the issue at all. But that's not really surprising, since they have fought in court to prevent it coming out that they even HAVE a don't fly list, let alone why somebody might be on it. Rick K 18:17, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
Newsnight (a nightly UK news magazine programme) did a section yesterday showing them following British foreign secretary Jack Straw at the United Nations (footage from this programme of him shaking Robert Mugabe's hand made the front pages in teh UK). In it Straw mentioned discussing Yusuf Islam with Colin Powell and that he (Straw) had always found Islam to be a good, trustworthy member of the Muslim community (well, words similar to it). 2 interesting points out of this for me: (1) The British Government don't understnad how Islam could get on a watchlist (indeed they're even giving him character references!); (2) It is a point that's been taken up seriously at an international level. That said, I still think the whole issue is a small footnote in Islam's life, and a not overly long section in the article will suffice. Certainly time will tell. Jongarrettuk 18:58, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I also agree that the "Denial of entry into the U.S." section could contain more information, but I think a lengthy paragraph about Zakat is not necessary, especially one beginning with the inherently POV phrase "It should be kept in mind..." Taco Deposit | Talk-o Deposit 17:17, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
I strongly urge that the "denial of entry" section be moved into a separate article. That way, people can write as much as they like on this subject, and the Cat Stevens article doesn't get skewed. Does anybody disagree with this? -- Auximines 23:56, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please will those who keep adding information and links about the recent denial of entry to the US explain why they think it is so important? -- Auximines 22:29, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Ironically, given his later conversion to Islam, his Greek heritage led to him being very anti-Muslim" Unless if there is some source this seems to me a total misunderstanding. Cat Stevens wasn't Greek but Cypriot. Cyprus was independant coutry were a Greek communauty and a Turk were communauty living in peace until a group of greek extremists backed by the Greek military dictorship caused a civil war. A lot Greek Cypriots disapproved this policy. In fact they finally ousted the goverment responsible for the war. Ericd 03:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What in the world is this: The logic pretty much went like this: Greeks hate Turks; Turks are Muslim.
OK I just wanted a source. I think it's better to attribute theis kind of sentence to Cat Stevens himself in the article. Ericd 09:19, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ericd 18:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The quote provided, I feel, has been taken out of context and given the statements made by Yusuf Islam in 1989 seen here and here, I'm taking the liberty of re-writing the section on Rushdie to be a little more NPOV. Sherurcij 06:12, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
I find it remarkable that wikipedia can't provide a quote from the actual Kingston Polytechnic comment on the Rushdie Fatwa. Is there no accurate source for what he said at Kingston? Funkyj 17:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Let's drop the subjective language. It's as though he wrote it all, even when he didn't. -- VKokielov 01:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Didn't he?-- 220.238.73.6 07:27, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Note: This vote is already closed. Please stop voting. -- Hottentot
There has been a pagemove war here, moving back and forth between Cat Stevens and Yusuf Islam. As a third party, I have protected against pagemoves and have added a move request so that broader feedback can be obtained. I will also add a note to Wikipedia:Current surveys.
Note also that protecting pages against page moves requires freezing on one title or the other (just like protecting pages against editing requires freezing on one version or the other) and this does not constitute an endorsement of one title or the other. The move request is accordingly phrased as a move request to the other title, which likewise does not constitute an endorsement of the move. -- Curps 21:40, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The following votes were cast after the "decision" (cited below) not to move the page based on votes cast between October 10 and approximately 0300 October 15:
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 03:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how long the Yusef/Cat Stevens debate has been going on, but I do notice that the section on Cat Stevens -- the artist -- is very sparse. There's no insight into his musical stylings, song lyrics, etc. I mean it's common knowledge that his famous song "Lady D'Arbanville" was inspired (in some fashion) by the actress Patti D'Arbanville. I don't have a great deal of knowledge of his professional career (so my writing would be more of a hindrance than a help), but someone must have access to some decent biographical information on him. The section on Yusef Islam and his charitable works, etc. could also use more work, but the lack of Cat Stevens info hit me first because that's what I was searching for.
Many of the links are outdated and no longer work. I believe, for the sake of the amount of attention this article has recieved, they should be revised. Rjfleming84 19:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Also, what in the heck does "Discision" mean? I'll leave it to edit by the author if he meant "decision", rather than just changing it without prior discussion. Delete this comment when taken care of, as it doesn't pertain to the article itself, merely context.
Rjfleming84
19:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)