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Archive 1 |
Does anybody knows the veracity of this? -- Jmieres 20:41, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Since this was throughout Spanish America, don't you think we should like to something beyond Mexican Indian?
This page is not just a definition but also a discussion of the Spanish caste system in Latin America. Maybe another article is needed titled something like "Spanish caste system in Latin America'" but to be simplified to a Wiktionary entry seems like a bad idea.
-- Moheroy 22:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
There should be a section discussing the paintings, which were a major art field in their day. It might even be worthy of its own article at some point.
Here are two articles that mention the paintings:
Lawikitejana 20:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I just saw some of the paintings in the Tesoros exhibit in Philadelphia. I was hoping this page would explain it better. But maybe I should edit it myself? *g* Some of the paintings suggested that "whiter" women were marrying "less white" men, which seemed unlikely, but did this happen?
Hi. We are a group of Mexican students from major degree of the Instituto Tecnológico y de Estudios Superiores de Monterrey. We are actually taking our course in English Advanced B and we are interested in participating in Wiki-Project Mexico.
Because of that, we decided to modify this article in order to make it better and reliable (including official sources). We hope you'll like it. If you need some help with Mexican History of Spanish writing or spelling please contact us.
Sincerely Borbotones Team.
EDGAR-ENCASTIN 04:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Leader of team.
TEAM PAGE: Wikipedia:School and university projects/ITESM Campus Toluca/Borbotonesteam
I think somone should add examples of mixing. I still have no idea what a mestiza and a criollo make. Will there child be a castizo(a) or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.38.67.79 ( talk) 00:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This article needs to mention the terms "insulares" and "mestizajes" and their relations and ranks in the Spanish caste system. XXXpinoy777 ( talk) 23:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
The Peninsular was an important group, but the link redirect was to 'peninsula' so I removed it. Also, a proper page doesn't exist.
Cor Ferrum ( talk) 22:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
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The section on casta painting is underdeveloped in this article. There is much more to be said, but saying it would make this article unduly long. There is a large scholarly literature on casta painting as a separate topic. Amuseclio ( talk) 17:37, 7 August 2019 (UTC)Amuseclio
The system of castas, or genízaros, was based on the principle that the character and quality of people varied according largely to their "birth, color, race and origin of ethnic types"
What does "character and quality" have to do with the words "race,colour,birth"? The portugueses created the word Casta to sort of the slaves they owned, the portuguese owned slaves from all different races such as Indians,africans,japanese ect, they then sorted them by age of birth, the colour of a slave was more for saleability for sex slavery which the portugueseagain where famous for, hence Casta actual orginal meaning was Race,Colour,Birth... NOT CHARACTER AND QUALITY, checked your ref and nothing implys Character and Quality.remove it 92.236.96.38 ( talk) 16:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock
This article is sheer fantasy. There was never "a formal racial hierarchy" in Latin America. The Casta system is a Anglo-Saxon myth. There was no legal institution of such a system. In fact, many Spanish immigrants were the servants of rich Mestizos and Mulatos in New Spain. I'll allow for a discussion before I start removing unsourced nonsense. Negin2019 ( talk) 14:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Removing descriptions of racial categories altogether is warranted since they are total fiction. They were never used outside of those paintings. We certainly need more detail on the works of Gonzalbo and other Latin American authors. This article suffers from Anglo-bias and distortion. Spanish language sources are absolutely necessary here. 176.85.217.174 ( talk) 14:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
I do not want to engage in an editing war with multiple reverts with an unknown Wiki editor, but user 176.85.217.174 has reverted significant text without any kind of community discussion on the talk page. Since this person is an apparently unregistered Wiki editor, I cannot go to the person's talk page to discuss the person's actions, and the editor has not contacted me on mine. I agree that the notion of a fixed casta "system" has been examined by historians, and I have gone to the works of a number with citations how un-rigid the classifications were. Along with deleting text the user does not approve of, s/he also deleted images from casta paintings that show how elites conceived of persons slotted into the racial categories. These are worthwhile seeing as historical artifacts and placing them in the Wiki article does not suggest that they are true representations. Intellectual history and art history use such evidence to understand they way people (in this case elites) thought. Cultural historians have used casta paintings to understand material culture. I would like to engage in a civil community discussion here on the talk page. I am open to reworking the lengthy section on casta categories, but to have the whole section blanked is not acceptable without discussion. Amuseclio ( talk) 17:38, 23 August 2019 (UTC)Amuseclio
Espanoles in the caste categorization referred to Criollos. I have fixed this mistake. It did not refer to peninsulares. I have fixed this.-- 83.51.46.1 ( talk) 18:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Ultimately, the link is based on the division in Spain between Old Christians and New Christians. Those of Moorish, Jewish, Black, Indian background were lumped together not so much because of their racial background but because of their background as people who have not been Christian for various generations. This is hard to explain but is useful to disentangle the confused link between both concepts. When Spanish Americans began to become acquainted with the concept of race, the idea of purity of blood fit in well with that of race and there was a natural progression from one to the other. -- Php2000 ( talk) 18:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
This article seems to have some substantial differences in tone with the Spanish language version of this article. It opens by saying that in the Spanish Americas it is "a now discredited 20th century theoretical framework which postulated that colonial society operated under a hierarchical race-based 'caste system'". However, the Spanish version of this article, while mentioning this in the lead, does not make an assertion that this is a discredited framework, and instead calls it out as a controversy, all of which seems to be properly cited, unlike this article. Is it proper then, to call it discredited? If not, should the lead be fixed to reflect that? If it is, what is the Spanish version missing that makes it conclusively discredited, and not just something without sufficient evidence to determine in either direction? Rdelfin ( talk) 17:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
A lot of Spanish words, particularly for nationality and ethnicity, are used in the article. In Spanish the names of countries (proper nouns) are capitalised, but nationalities, languages and ethnicities (adjectives) are not. So we have España, but español (nationality), español (language), indio, ... Easily verified with a search if anyone disagrees (search for [nacionalidad mayuscula]). Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 16:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
"Men of color began to apply to the Royal and Pontifical University of Mexico, but in 1688 Bishop Juan de Palafox y Mendoza attempted to prevent their entrance by drafting new regulations barring black peoples and mulattoes."
...But Bishop Juan de Palafox y Mendoza died in 1659. دانيالوه ( talk) 20:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Does anybody knows the veracity of this? -- Jmieres 20:41, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Since this was throughout Spanish America, don't you think we should like to something beyond Mexican Indian?
This page is not just a definition but also a discussion of the Spanish caste system in Latin America. Maybe another article is needed titled something like "Spanish caste system in Latin America'" but to be simplified to a Wiktionary entry seems like a bad idea.
-- Moheroy 22:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
There should be a section discussing the paintings, which were a major art field in their day. It might even be worthy of its own article at some point.
Here are two articles that mention the paintings:
Lawikitejana 20:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I just saw some of the paintings in the Tesoros exhibit in Philadelphia. I was hoping this page would explain it better. But maybe I should edit it myself? *g* Some of the paintings suggested that "whiter" women were marrying "less white" men, which seemed unlikely, but did this happen?
Hi. We are a group of Mexican students from major degree of the Instituto Tecnológico y de Estudios Superiores de Monterrey. We are actually taking our course in English Advanced B and we are interested in participating in Wiki-Project Mexico.
Because of that, we decided to modify this article in order to make it better and reliable (including official sources). We hope you'll like it. If you need some help with Mexican History of Spanish writing or spelling please contact us.
Sincerely Borbotones Team.
EDGAR-ENCASTIN 04:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Leader of team.
TEAM PAGE: Wikipedia:School and university projects/ITESM Campus Toluca/Borbotonesteam
I think somone should add examples of mixing. I still have no idea what a mestiza and a criollo make. Will there child be a castizo(a) or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.38.67.79 ( talk) 00:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This article needs to mention the terms "insulares" and "mestizajes" and their relations and ranks in the Spanish caste system. XXXpinoy777 ( talk) 23:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
The Peninsular was an important group, but the link redirect was to 'peninsula' so I removed it. Also, a proper page doesn't exist.
Cor Ferrum ( talk) 22:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Casta. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
The section on casta painting is underdeveloped in this article. There is much more to be said, but saying it would make this article unduly long. There is a large scholarly literature on casta painting as a separate topic. Amuseclio ( talk) 17:37, 7 August 2019 (UTC)Amuseclio
The system of castas, or genízaros, was based on the principle that the character and quality of people varied according largely to their "birth, color, race and origin of ethnic types"
What does "character and quality" have to do with the words "race,colour,birth"? The portugueses created the word Casta to sort of the slaves they owned, the portuguese owned slaves from all different races such as Indians,africans,japanese ect, they then sorted them by age of birth, the colour of a slave was more for saleability for sex slavery which the portugueseagain where famous for, hence Casta actual orginal meaning was Race,Colour,Birth... NOT CHARACTER AND QUALITY, checked your ref and nothing implys Character and Quality.remove it 92.236.96.38 ( talk) 16:34, 15 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock
This article is sheer fantasy. There was never "a formal racial hierarchy" in Latin America. The Casta system is a Anglo-Saxon myth. There was no legal institution of such a system. In fact, many Spanish immigrants were the servants of rich Mestizos and Mulatos in New Spain. I'll allow for a discussion before I start removing unsourced nonsense. Negin2019 ( talk) 14:36, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Removing descriptions of racial categories altogether is warranted since they are total fiction. They were never used outside of those paintings. We certainly need more detail on the works of Gonzalbo and other Latin American authors. This article suffers from Anglo-bias and distortion. Spanish language sources are absolutely necessary here. 176.85.217.174 ( talk) 14:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
I do not want to engage in an editing war with multiple reverts with an unknown Wiki editor, but user 176.85.217.174 has reverted significant text without any kind of community discussion on the talk page. Since this person is an apparently unregistered Wiki editor, I cannot go to the person's talk page to discuss the person's actions, and the editor has not contacted me on mine. I agree that the notion of a fixed casta "system" has been examined by historians, and I have gone to the works of a number with citations how un-rigid the classifications were. Along with deleting text the user does not approve of, s/he also deleted images from casta paintings that show how elites conceived of persons slotted into the racial categories. These are worthwhile seeing as historical artifacts and placing them in the Wiki article does not suggest that they are true representations. Intellectual history and art history use such evidence to understand they way people (in this case elites) thought. Cultural historians have used casta paintings to understand material culture. I would like to engage in a civil community discussion here on the talk page. I am open to reworking the lengthy section on casta categories, but to have the whole section blanked is not acceptable without discussion. Amuseclio ( talk) 17:38, 23 August 2019 (UTC)Amuseclio
Espanoles in the caste categorization referred to Criollos. I have fixed this mistake. It did not refer to peninsulares. I have fixed this.-- 83.51.46.1 ( talk) 18:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Ultimately, the link is based on the division in Spain between Old Christians and New Christians. Those of Moorish, Jewish, Black, Indian background were lumped together not so much because of their racial background but because of their background as people who have not been Christian for various generations. This is hard to explain but is useful to disentangle the confused link between both concepts. When Spanish Americans began to become acquainted with the concept of race, the idea of purity of blood fit in well with that of race and there was a natural progression from one to the other. -- Php2000 ( talk) 18:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
This article seems to have some substantial differences in tone with the Spanish language version of this article. It opens by saying that in the Spanish Americas it is "a now discredited 20th century theoretical framework which postulated that colonial society operated under a hierarchical race-based 'caste system'". However, the Spanish version of this article, while mentioning this in the lead, does not make an assertion that this is a discredited framework, and instead calls it out as a controversy, all of which seems to be properly cited, unlike this article. Is it proper then, to call it discredited? If not, should the lead be fixed to reflect that? If it is, what is the Spanish version missing that makes it conclusively discredited, and not just something without sufficient evidence to determine in either direction? Rdelfin ( talk) 17:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
A lot of Spanish words, particularly for nationality and ethnicity, are used in the article. In Spanish the names of countries (proper nouns) are capitalised, but nationalities, languages and ethnicities (adjectives) are not. So we have España, but español (nationality), español (language), indio, ... Easily verified with a search if anyone disagrees (search for [nacionalidad mayuscula]). Best wishes, Pol098 ( talk) 16:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
"Men of color began to apply to the Royal and Pontifical University of Mexico, but in 1688 Bishop Juan de Palafox y Mendoza attempted to prevent their entrance by drafting new regulations barring black peoples and mulattoes."
...But Bishop Juan de Palafox y Mendoza died in 1659. دانيالوه ( talk) 20:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)