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Carbon Creek (Star Trek: Enterprise) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Image:CarbonCreek.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 06:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the trivia section and created subsections instead per other episode articles. I also put back the reference to the drunk alternate take as this is a notable bit of production information and it's been released on DVD so it's verifiable. 68.146.41.232 ( talk) 18:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Seems OR to me. Lots42 ( talk) 13:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 12:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Carbon Creek (Star Trek) →
Carbon Creek (Star Trek: Enterprise) — Seems to be the normal disambiguation for episodes of
Star Trek: Enterprise .—
84.92.117.93 (
talk) 21:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The parenthetical remark beginning "In reality," duplicates much of the preceding sentence. Due to the fact that the preceding sentence requires a source, I'm not sure how to merge them properly. Any ideas? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I came to this page to see if there were any references to the titles/artists of the 1950s country music selections playing in the Pine Tree Inn and perhaps elsewhere. Is there anyone here who knows of any source that provides this information? 68.10.81.239 ( talk) 21:14, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Should we include a citation that Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania, is a fictional town, unlike other Earth-based locales in the Star Trek Universe? Michaelopolis ( talk) 03:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
The character Mestral appears again in the Star Trek novel "From History's Shadow" [7] Not sure if that is WP:NOTABLE enough to mention in the article though. -- 109.76.134.1 ( talk) 11:43, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm a little confused about the Nielsen Ratings for this episode, and trying to understand TV ratings in general. There seem to be different sets of ratings, the Fast ratings which are reported overnight and from a smaller sample of Nielsen households, and the Final ratings for the week. Maybe someone who better understands Nielsen Ratings can clear this up?
So when Variety says "Enterprise (4.84m, 2.4/7)"
[9] I think maybe that is the early fast ratings [I don't know exactly what that means].
When others say the ratings were "Enterprise (UPN) - 3.0/5 (4.8 million)"
[10]
[11] that seems to be the final ratings.
I'm still not entirely sure, but I will try to make the article clearer if I can. (This seems like something that would need to be sorted out properly if anyone is trying to get this article up to a higher quality rating.) In any case the numbers by themselves aren't so important as the analysis and commentary which explain to readers what they mean and how the this episode compares to others. -- 109.76.206.200 ( talk) 14:31, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I decided to add some context about the ratings of other first run science fiction or fantasy genre shows that week, which put Enterprise in 7th place. [15] I considered comparing Enterprise to Firefly (4th) ( second episode, I'm fairly sure) as they were more similar to each other than any of the other shows, but it seemed more relevant to compare the raw number of viewers and note that Alias (admittedly the second season premiere) had audience numbers that were more than double what Enterprise managed. I also asked myself, what about other contemporary shows like Stargate SG1 or Farscape? But they were broadcast in syndication (much lower audience numbers even at their peak) and not directly comparable, also for this episode specifically new episodes didn't come out at this time of year anyway. There does seem to have been a new episode of Andromeda that week though. So broadly speaking there were a lot sci-fi shows on television that Enterprise had to compete with, but in terms of specific relevance to this episode there does not seem to be any relevant details that could reasonably be highlighted. -- 109.77.198.2 ( talk) 13:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
J. Paul Boehmer did an interview for StarTrek.com in three parts. [16] The old video links are dead but TrekToday briefly quoted the video [17] and noted that in regard to his performance as Mestral he was already a fan of Spock and Leonard Nimoy.
StarTrek.com reposted the video with Boehmer: Part 1 (7m24); Part 2 (6m28); Part 3 (5m29).
In Part 1 he is asked about his background, audition, Voyager: Drone, including a preview clip from that episode. Part 3: his favorite captain (Picard, Janeway, but it has to be Kirk); conventions; and Zero Hour (but he cannot actually answer most of the questions).
Part 2, is all about Carbon Creek. Partial transcript follows:
Question: "What was it like to play Mestral in Enterprise?"
(Answer begins at about the ~20s mark)
He thinks they spent four days on location and four days in studio shooting the interiors.
45s: (paraphrase) It was the first episode back, everyone was excited, and fresh.
1m20s: "Jolene is so funny and so sweet"
(paraphrase) they've been together so long (the production staff) it's like being in a theatre company
2m10s: "Did you watch original series episodes to prepare to play Mestral?"
I'm going to fess up, I'm a total geek for the original Star Trek. What can I say?
When I played Mestral I didn't really make a point of going back and watching episodes,
because, I think once a week on the Sci Fi channel, all day long they show classic Star Treks, so...
I catch a few of those every week.
So I didn't really make a point of going back and watching them in particular but they are pretty present in my mind.
3m continues talking, mostly about Nimoy
4m25 Question: "What character was the most fun to play?"
One ... and Mestral, both.
5:55 Mestral was really exciting for me only because I grew up on Star Trek and Spock and the wonderful archetype that Leonard Nimoy was able to create
I'll come back to this later and try to make use of it in the article somehow. Video links are a pain to reference because they always break. Unless I can find a version of the interview in print, I'm probably going to have to kludge a reference with more than one source and careful quotes. -- 109.76.144.188 ( talk) 15:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
"Johnnie's Market is the actual small town market there."
Business listings:
"The sign in the show was paid for by Paramount and is still there."
Using Google Street view you can see the sign:
Image capture October 2012
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2468779,-117.3012402,3a,75y,94.12h,77.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxDip7UtNj1sc-XbJUTT_SQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
but only from certain angles, looking at it from another angle you get given other images,
Image capture from February 2019
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2469781,-117.3011371,3a,75y,175.33h,94.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPXg-iglWv8IEMqYD50c1bA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
The building has been painted and the sign changed to "Magic 7 Family Market". It seems as if the business changed ownership in 2014.
Predictably enough the claim that something was "still there" has gone out of date. If anything it is a surprise that that it lasted over a decade. Now that I've done all the necessary due diligence I'm going to update the article and remove the "still there" claim. -- 109.79.169.92 ( talk) 03:14, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
( Memory Alpha notes that...) The exterior of the building that was used for the outside of the Pine Tree Bar and Grill is a laundromat, called the "Wash Tub". As of 2021 you can see it from Google Maps Street View. [20] I'd like to add more about these filming locations to the Production section but without a reliable secondary source to confirm the details, it is probably not allowed. -- 109.78.194.99 ( talk) 02:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
As far as I can tell Ain't it Cool News didn't actually do a full review this episode, but in their (2002) review of another episode they said "the series demonstrated with 2.2 (“Carbon Creek,” aka “ Vulcan ‘57”) that the show can still knock one out of the park given half a chance." [21] Maybe that praise could be squeezed into the Reception section. -- 109.79.175.162 ( talk) 00:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
I liked the review of Carbon Creek from Ex-AstrisScientia too. The review was critical of the episode, again comparing it to the Voyager episode 11:59 and going so far as to call it "pointless" but they did praise the performances "Mestral is yet another refreshing take on the typical Vulcan" and concluded was a good episode and gave it 6 out of 10. -- 109.76.132.93 ( talk) 00:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Review from
Tim Lynch via Psi Phi 2 out of 10. (Tim Lynch
[23])
Review from
Jamahl Epsicokhan of
Jammer's Reviews 1.5 out of 4 stars (downgraded from an initial 2 star grade) "indifference"
Review from
CJ Carter - ScoopMe "a derivative tale, it's largely enjoyable"
The Cynics Corner - David E. Sluss 4.5 out of 10
Review from
Monkey's Place 10 out of 10
Review from
Trek5 Captain Mac 5 out of 5
Review from
Trek 47 8 out of 10
Review from
SyFy Portal - Michael Hinman C grade
Review from
TrekWeb "has its moments ... no surprises". Compared to Voyager 11:59 and contrasted with the Star Trek novel
Strangers from the Sky by Margaret Wander Bonnano.
Review of Season 2 DVD from
IGN in 2012 criticized the series for its "recycled Trek plot devices and characters. Carbon Creek may as well be entitled
The City on the Edge of the Appalachians".
Not a review, but in July interview (
Beacon Journal, Ohio)
Rick Berman teased the episode premise "Vulcans were keeping an eye on Sputnik when it got launched" while complaining about the script of the season premiere having been leaked on the internet.
I know these don't all meet Wikipedia standard for reliable sources but I was looking them up anyway so I include them here for completeness. Also when reviews keep mentioning the same things it is reassuring that those are details worth highlighting from the few more reliable sources in this encyclopedia article. -- 109.78.193.194 ( talk) 06:49, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
While doing a deep dive for sources I found out that the Clint Eastwood film Pale Rider also includes a "Carbon Creek". The town of struggling goldminers is Carbon Canyon, California, and the river where they are looking for gold is called Carbon Creek. [24] (It was set in California but filmed in Idaho.) I do not have anything to suggest this is more than a coincidence, maybe one of the writers was a big Clint Eastwood fan and it was an intentional nod to the film, but chances are they just liked the name sound of it. -- 109.78.199.44 ( talk) 20:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Carbon Creek (Star Trek: Enterprise) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Image:CarbonCreek.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 06:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the trivia section and created subsections instead per other episode articles. I also put back the reference to the drunk alternate take as this is a notable bit of production information and it's been released on DVD so it's verifiable. 68.146.41.232 ( talk) 18:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Seems OR to me. Lots42 ( talk) 13:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 12:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Carbon Creek (Star Trek) →
Carbon Creek (Star Trek: Enterprise) — Seems to be the normal disambiguation for episodes of
Star Trek: Enterprise .—
84.92.117.93 (
talk) 21:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The parenthetical remark beginning "In reality," duplicates much of the preceding sentence. Due to the fact that the preceding sentence requires a source, I'm not sure how to merge them properly. Any ideas? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
I came to this page to see if there were any references to the titles/artists of the 1950s country music selections playing in the Pine Tree Inn and perhaps elsewhere. Is there anyone here who knows of any source that provides this information? 68.10.81.239 ( talk) 21:14, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Should we include a citation that Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania, is a fictional town, unlike other Earth-based locales in the Star Trek Universe? Michaelopolis ( talk) 03:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
The character Mestral appears again in the Star Trek novel "From History's Shadow" [7] Not sure if that is WP:NOTABLE enough to mention in the article though. -- 109.76.134.1 ( talk) 11:43, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm a little confused about the Nielsen Ratings for this episode, and trying to understand TV ratings in general. There seem to be different sets of ratings, the Fast ratings which are reported overnight and from a smaller sample of Nielsen households, and the Final ratings for the week. Maybe someone who better understands Nielsen Ratings can clear this up?
So when Variety says "Enterprise (4.84m, 2.4/7)"
[9] I think maybe that is the early fast ratings [I don't know exactly what that means].
When others say the ratings were "Enterprise (UPN) - 3.0/5 (4.8 million)"
[10]
[11] that seems to be the final ratings.
I'm still not entirely sure, but I will try to make the article clearer if I can. (This seems like something that would need to be sorted out properly if anyone is trying to get this article up to a higher quality rating.) In any case the numbers by themselves aren't so important as the analysis and commentary which explain to readers what they mean and how the this episode compares to others. -- 109.76.206.200 ( talk) 14:31, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I decided to add some context about the ratings of other first run science fiction or fantasy genre shows that week, which put Enterprise in 7th place. [15] I considered comparing Enterprise to Firefly (4th) ( second episode, I'm fairly sure) as they were more similar to each other than any of the other shows, but it seemed more relevant to compare the raw number of viewers and note that Alias (admittedly the second season premiere) had audience numbers that were more than double what Enterprise managed. I also asked myself, what about other contemporary shows like Stargate SG1 or Farscape? But they were broadcast in syndication (much lower audience numbers even at their peak) and not directly comparable, also for this episode specifically new episodes didn't come out at this time of year anyway. There does seem to have been a new episode of Andromeda that week though. So broadly speaking there were a lot sci-fi shows on television that Enterprise had to compete with, but in terms of specific relevance to this episode there does not seem to be any relevant details that could reasonably be highlighted. -- 109.77.198.2 ( talk) 13:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
J. Paul Boehmer did an interview for StarTrek.com in three parts. [16] The old video links are dead but TrekToday briefly quoted the video [17] and noted that in regard to his performance as Mestral he was already a fan of Spock and Leonard Nimoy.
StarTrek.com reposted the video with Boehmer: Part 1 (7m24); Part 2 (6m28); Part 3 (5m29).
In Part 1 he is asked about his background, audition, Voyager: Drone, including a preview clip from that episode. Part 3: his favorite captain (Picard, Janeway, but it has to be Kirk); conventions; and Zero Hour (but he cannot actually answer most of the questions).
Part 2, is all about Carbon Creek. Partial transcript follows:
Question: "What was it like to play Mestral in Enterprise?"
(Answer begins at about the ~20s mark)
He thinks they spent four days on location and four days in studio shooting the interiors.
45s: (paraphrase) It was the first episode back, everyone was excited, and fresh.
1m20s: "Jolene is so funny and so sweet"
(paraphrase) they've been together so long (the production staff) it's like being in a theatre company
2m10s: "Did you watch original series episodes to prepare to play Mestral?"
I'm going to fess up, I'm a total geek for the original Star Trek. What can I say?
When I played Mestral I didn't really make a point of going back and watching episodes,
because, I think once a week on the Sci Fi channel, all day long they show classic Star Treks, so...
I catch a few of those every week.
So I didn't really make a point of going back and watching them in particular but they are pretty present in my mind.
3m continues talking, mostly about Nimoy
4m25 Question: "What character was the most fun to play?"
One ... and Mestral, both.
5:55 Mestral was really exciting for me only because I grew up on Star Trek and Spock and the wonderful archetype that Leonard Nimoy was able to create
I'll come back to this later and try to make use of it in the article somehow. Video links are a pain to reference because they always break. Unless I can find a version of the interview in print, I'm probably going to have to kludge a reference with more than one source and careful quotes. -- 109.76.144.188 ( talk) 15:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
"Johnnie's Market is the actual small town market there."
Business listings:
"The sign in the show was paid for by Paramount and is still there."
Using Google Street view you can see the sign:
Image capture October 2012
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2468779,-117.3012402,3a,75y,94.12h,77.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxDip7UtNj1sc-XbJUTT_SQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
but only from certain angles, looking at it from another angle you get given other images,
Image capture from February 2019
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2469781,-117.3011371,3a,75y,175.33h,94.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPXg-iglWv8IEMqYD50c1bA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
The building has been painted and the sign changed to "Magic 7 Family Market". It seems as if the business changed ownership in 2014.
Predictably enough the claim that something was "still there" has gone out of date. If anything it is a surprise that that it lasted over a decade. Now that I've done all the necessary due diligence I'm going to update the article and remove the "still there" claim. -- 109.79.169.92 ( talk) 03:14, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
( Memory Alpha notes that...) The exterior of the building that was used for the outside of the Pine Tree Bar and Grill is a laundromat, called the "Wash Tub". As of 2021 you can see it from Google Maps Street View. [20] I'd like to add more about these filming locations to the Production section but without a reliable secondary source to confirm the details, it is probably not allowed. -- 109.78.194.99 ( talk) 02:05, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
As far as I can tell Ain't it Cool News didn't actually do a full review this episode, but in their (2002) review of another episode they said "the series demonstrated with 2.2 (“Carbon Creek,” aka “ Vulcan ‘57”) that the show can still knock one out of the park given half a chance." [21] Maybe that praise could be squeezed into the Reception section. -- 109.79.175.162 ( talk) 00:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
I liked the review of Carbon Creek from Ex-AstrisScientia too. The review was critical of the episode, again comparing it to the Voyager episode 11:59 and going so far as to call it "pointless" but they did praise the performances "Mestral is yet another refreshing take on the typical Vulcan" and concluded was a good episode and gave it 6 out of 10. -- 109.76.132.93 ( talk) 00:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Review from
Tim Lynch via Psi Phi 2 out of 10. (Tim Lynch
[23])
Review from
Jamahl Epsicokhan of
Jammer's Reviews 1.5 out of 4 stars (downgraded from an initial 2 star grade) "indifference"
Review from
CJ Carter - ScoopMe "a derivative tale, it's largely enjoyable"
The Cynics Corner - David E. Sluss 4.5 out of 10
Review from
Monkey's Place 10 out of 10
Review from
Trek5 Captain Mac 5 out of 5
Review from
Trek 47 8 out of 10
Review from
SyFy Portal - Michael Hinman C grade
Review from
TrekWeb "has its moments ... no surprises". Compared to Voyager 11:59 and contrasted with the Star Trek novel
Strangers from the Sky by Margaret Wander Bonnano.
Review of Season 2 DVD from
IGN in 2012 criticized the series for its "recycled Trek plot devices and characters. Carbon Creek may as well be entitled
The City on the Edge of the Appalachians".
Not a review, but in July interview (
Beacon Journal, Ohio)
Rick Berman teased the episode premise "Vulcans were keeping an eye on Sputnik when it got launched" while complaining about the script of the season premiere having been leaked on the internet.
I know these don't all meet Wikipedia standard for reliable sources but I was looking them up anyway so I include them here for completeness. Also when reviews keep mentioning the same things it is reassuring that those are details worth highlighting from the few more reliable sources in this encyclopedia article. -- 109.78.193.194 ( talk) 06:49, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
While doing a deep dive for sources I found out that the Clint Eastwood film Pale Rider also includes a "Carbon Creek". The town of struggling goldminers is Carbon Canyon, California, and the river where they are looking for gold is called Carbon Creek. [24] (It was set in California but filmed in Idaho.) I do not have anything to suggest this is more than a coincidence, maybe one of the writers was a big Clint Eastwood fan and it was an intentional nod to the film, but chances are they just liked the name sound of it. -- 109.78.199.44 ( talk) 20:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)