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Carál Ní Chuilín is this person's legal name and she does not appear to use any other name. While one (markedly hostile) source is given for the suggestion that she was known in the 1980s as "plain old Carol Cullen", that is only an anglicised version of Carál Ní Chuilín. The specific right to use personal names and surnames in the Irish form is recognised in Northern Ireland as a human right under two treaties to which the UK is party, and the lede wording should not (at least, without strong sources) suggest that the real name is a changed name. "(b. Carol Cullen)" (=born as Carol Cullen) seems to deny that Carál Ní Chuilín was this person's name at birth, which, using the Irish form that she prefers, it would have been. "Formerly known as" avoids that issue. Brocach ( talk) 14:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
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Considering IRA membership was proven in a court of law. Is there any subsequent information that proves she is no longer a member? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 13:29, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assessment_on_Paramilitary_Groups_in_Northern_Ireland
The Wikipedia page for the IRA shows that the assessment on paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland determined that the IRA continues to exist. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 14:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Whether someone is convicted of a crime or not is nothing to do with Wikipedia, it’s a matter for the courts. Your standpoint that the IRA no longer exists is incorrect and is not an argument that can be used with regard to determining membership. Someone convicted of membership of an organisation that still exists who has not stated they have left said organisation cannot be described as a former member. Again, is there anything that shows she has left the organisation? In addition I don’t believe that a book is a more authoritative source than a government report. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 14:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
O’Leary can publish what he likes, nothing to do with me or with Wikipedia. The governments latest report on the existence of the IRA is that it still exists. There has been nothing to state that membership has ended. Therefore stating that she is a former member is incorrect. This seems straightforward to me. I am not sure why you are insisting that a mr O’Learys book is a more authoritative work that an official UK government report?
Could you expand on how I have misinterpreted policy? Genuinely interested. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 15:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I have tried several times to link to an Irish news article from February 2020 which cites the Irish police belief that the IRA still exists. Do not seem able to do so. The following is a quote from the Taoiseach, made on Twitter this year.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar asked on Twitter: "Why doesn't McDonald disband the Army Council and the PIRA or if she cannot, repudiate them and sever all links and do so publicly and unequivocally?"
Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 15:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Is that an acknowledgement that you now agree that the IRA still exist? Would like to get that resolved before addressing your second point. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 15:51, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I get where you are coming from now. I honestly don’t believe you are correct in thinking that policy applies here. The individual in question is described on her page as a former IRA volunteer. If we accept that she was at one point a member of the IRA then surely there should be some reference to show why she is no longer a member. The British government, Irish government and both police forces all agree the IRA still exists. There is nothing available that I can find that states she has left the IRA so I simply don’t understand why she is a former member. Surely we should not assume someone has changed their status without a reference? I thought that’s how Wikipedia worked? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 16:27, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Two points here. You have cited a book which states the Ira does not exist. The British government published a report which states it does exist and both Irish and British governments and two police forces agree with that assessment. I am interested as to why you think Brendan O’Leary knows more than them.
Secondly, as you said, she was a member, there is nothing to say she is no longer a member and therefore she should be described as a member. If you can cite something that shows she has left the IRA then I would be happy to acknowledge that. To my knowledge she has never stated that she has left and until she has done so it would be incorrect to assume she has. I thought any changes, especially ones that are controversial, should be backed up by evidence, not assumptions. The assumption in this case being that her membership status has changed when there is no evidence to back that up. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 16:52, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I have opened this up as a topic in the tea house. Would it be better to continue the discussion there as opposed to on this talk page. I do not wish to inadvertently contravene https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLPCRIME Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 16:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I don’t like making assumptions, she was in the IRA, she has not said she has left, ergo we should not assume any change in status. Would it be a reasonable compromise to describe her as a someone whose membership of the IRA is currently unknown? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 17:19, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I don’t like making assumptions, so stop assuming Carál Ní Chuilín is still in the IRA. FDW777 ( talk) 17:24, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I did check the references. Harris states that the Garda and the PSNI both agree that the army council oversees SF and the IRA. This must mean there is an IRA to oversee. I appreciate the slant you are attempting to put on the article but it’s pretty clear. The 2015 assessment has not changed. The Ira still exist. My O’Leary may have sources that are better informed that the police forces both in Ireland and in Northern Ireland but I doubt it. I think I will believe the Garda commissionaire, two police forces and the two governments above the writings of an author.
I am not violating the policy as I am not accusing someone of a crime for which they have not been convicted. She was convicted and she has not stated that her status has changed. You are making an unsubstantiated assumption that her status has changed. I am not assuming anything, I am following facts, not beliefs. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 17:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
To the contrary, I at no point made any claims that she committed an offence again. You are perfectly within your rights to ask for sanctions if you wish. Would you be against me filing a 3O in Order to resolve this issue? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 17:45, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
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Carál Ní Chuilín is this person's legal name and she does not appear to use any other name. While one (markedly hostile) source is given for the suggestion that she was known in the 1980s as "plain old Carol Cullen", that is only an anglicised version of Carál Ní Chuilín. The specific right to use personal names and surnames in the Irish form is recognised in Northern Ireland as a human right under two treaties to which the UK is party, and the lede wording should not (at least, without strong sources) suggest that the real name is a changed name. "(b. Carol Cullen)" (=born as Carol Cullen) seems to deny that Carál Ní Chuilín was this person's name at birth, which, using the Irish form that she prefers, it would have been. "Formerly known as" avoids that issue. Brocach ( talk) 14:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Carál Ní Chuilín. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
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Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:35, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Considering IRA membership was proven in a court of law. Is there any subsequent information that proves she is no longer a member? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 13:29, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assessment_on_Paramilitary_Groups_in_Northern_Ireland
The Wikipedia page for the IRA shows that the assessment on paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland determined that the IRA continues to exist. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 14:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Whether someone is convicted of a crime or not is nothing to do with Wikipedia, it’s a matter for the courts. Your standpoint that the IRA no longer exists is incorrect and is not an argument that can be used with regard to determining membership. Someone convicted of membership of an organisation that still exists who has not stated they have left said organisation cannot be described as a former member. Again, is there anything that shows she has left the organisation? In addition I don’t believe that a book is a more authoritative source than a government report. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 14:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
O’Leary can publish what he likes, nothing to do with me or with Wikipedia. The governments latest report on the existence of the IRA is that it still exists. There has been nothing to state that membership has ended. Therefore stating that she is a former member is incorrect. This seems straightforward to me. I am not sure why you are insisting that a mr O’Learys book is a more authoritative work that an official UK government report?
Could you expand on how I have misinterpreted policy? Genuinely interested. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 15:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I have tried several times to link to an Irish news article from February 2020 which cites the Irish police belief that the IRA still exists. Do not seem able to do so. The following is a quote from the Taoiseach, made on Twitter this year.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar asked on Twitter: "Why doesn't McDonald disband the Army Council and the PIRA or if she cannot, repudiate them and sever all links and do so publicly and unequivocally?"
Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 15:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Is that an acknowledgement that you now agree that the IRA still exist? Would like to get that resolved before addressing your second point. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 15:51, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I get where you are coming from now. I honestly don’t believe you are correct in thinking that policy applies here. The individual in question is described on her page as a former IRA volunteer. If we accept that she was at one point a member of the IRA then surely there should be some reference to show why she is no longer a member. The British government, Irish government and both police forces all agree the IRA still exists. There is nothing available that I can find that states she has left the IRA so I simply don’t understand why she is a former member. Surely we should not assume someone has changed their status without a reference? I thought that’s how Wikipedia worked? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 16:27, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Two points here. You have cited a book which states the Ira does not exist. The British government published a report which states it does exist and both Irish and British governments and two police forces agree with that assessment. I am interested as to why you think Brendan O’Leary knows more than them.
Secondly, as you said, she was a member, there is nothing to say she is no longer a member and therefore she should be described as a member. If you can cite something that shows she has left the IRA then I would be happy to acknowledge that. To my knowledge she has never stated that she has left and until she has done so it would be incorrect to assume she has. I thought any changes, especially ones that are controversial, should be backed up by evidence, not assumptions. The assumption in this case being that her membership status has changed when there is no evidence to back that up. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 16:52, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I have opened this up as a topic in the tea house. Would it be better to continue the discussion there as opposed to on this talk page. I do not wish to inadvertently contravene https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLPCRIME Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 16:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I don’t like making assumptions, she was in the IRA, she has not said she has left, ergo we should not assume any change in status. Would it be a reasonable compromise to describe her as a someone whose membership of the IRA is currently unknown? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 17:19, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I don’t like making assumptions, so stop assuming Carál Ní Chuilín is still in the IRA. FDW777 ( talk) 17:24, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I did check the references. Harris states that the Garda and the PSNI both agree that the army council oversees SF and the IRA. This must mean there is an IRA to oversee. I appreciate the slant you are attempting to put on the article but it’s pretty clear. The 2015 assessment has not changed. The Ira still exist. My O’Leary may have sources that are better informed that the police forces both in Ireland and in Northern Ireland but I doubt it. I think I will believe the Garda commissionaire, two police forces and the two governments above the writings of an author.
I am not violating the policy as I am not accusing someone of a crime for which they have not been convicted. She was convicted and she has not stated that her status has changed. You are making an unsubstantiated assumption that her status has changed. I am not assuming anything, I am following facts, not beliefs. Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 17:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
To the contrary, I at no point made any claims that she committed an offence again. You are perfectly within your rights to ask for sanctions if you wish. Would you be against me filing a 3O in Order to resolve this issue? Fletcherchristian101 ( talk) 17:45, 24 November 2020 (UTC)