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Pinochet vs Thatcher Falklands. Both capitalists, still went to war. Myth busted! (please sign here)
Most WP articles on concepts such as this one have a paragraph or two at the end briefly summing up the case against (typically flagged in the contents box as "Opposing Viewpoints" or language to that effect). As it stands, this entry positions capitalist peace as proven fact, since there is no mention of competing views or refutations. Laodah 21:02, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Pursuant to above, compare this entry: Democratic Peace Theory. Guide box includes the following:
8 Criticism
8.1 Statistical significance
8.2 Definitions, methodology and data
8.3 Limited consequences
[...]
10 Other explanations
10.1 Political similarity
10.2 Economic factors
10.3 Other explanations
10.4 Realist explanations
10.5 Nuclear deterrent
Laodah 21:08, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
This socalled "theory" is appalling in the face of reality. Should Wikipedia really be the place to promote such bogus? And if so, where is the obvious critique?
If you, dear reader, are unable to see the glaring headlights of reality, then please look up World War I and World War II. Both examples clearly shows that this hypothsis can't be farther from the truth. In fact, one could build a theory of "Capitalist warring" around those if you wanted to. RhinoMind ( talk) 19:31, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: procedural close. Malformed request: proposal competes with and contradicts recently closed requested move at Talk:Commercial peace#Requested move 9 August 2021. DrKay ( talk) 07:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Capitalist peace → Commercial peace – The "Commercial Peace" is a broader concept than "Capitalist Peace". The "Capitalist Peace" is one of several mechanisms for the "Commercial Peace", along with trade, financial integration, economic interdependence and so on. It makes more sense to have a page named after the broader concept and then to include the Capitalist Peace as one of the purported mechanisms for the Commercial Peace. Scholarship on the topic highlights the Commercial Peace, not the Capitalist Peace. [1] Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 21:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
An article on "Capitalist peace" should identify some capitalists. I added a short section on Henry Ford, one of the best known capitalists in world history with a focus on his peace efforts during the world wars. Rjensen ( talk) 18:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
First of all, Ford's worldview as a modern industrialist led him to view warfare as a wasteful folly. Everything he valued in terms of economic and social endeavor—an ethic of work and productivity, keen standards of efficiency, consumption and abundance among the mass of people—was violated by the wartime destruction of human beings and material resources. In a long string of pronouncements, Ford made it clear that he viewed war as an economic disaster. It destroyed human and material resources and offered a stark contrast to the positive ethos of modern industrial production....Ford also believed that war hindered long-term economic growth. “The manufacture of munitions is a thing of the minute, and after the war the whole business will crumble,” he declared in 1915. The losing side in the European conflict would likely suffer destruction of its economic infrastructure, and even the winners “will be suffering under heavy war debts and taxes.” A greater stress on business efficiency would discourage rather than encourage warfare. “If every man who manufactures an article would make [p 237] the very best he can in the very best way at the very lowest possible price the world would be kept out of war, for commercialists would not have to search for outside markets which the other fellow covets,” he argued. Ford contended that war profited only a minority of businessmen. “Preparedness means war, and war, for some few business men, means big, immediate profits,” he argued in one of his newspaper advertisements in 1916. But small businessmen faced a situation where wars “materially depleted the financial resources of the world, and the effects have been felt in all countries and localities, whether they were directly involved or not. It requires a good deal of time to recuperate from losses created by disturbances of this kind.” Big business, particularly those involved in producing munitions and armaments, might favor wars. But the majority of business, Ford reported over and over in this period, sought to avoid armed conflicts in order to concentrate on making goods, providing jobs, and generating steady profits. In the business world, he insisted, productivity trumped destructive impulses. [end Watts excerpt]
experience shaped American attitudes toward the Capitalist Peace idea--rather more than Macdonalds hamburgers did, then we need secondary sources directly connecting him to that theory. Otherwise, if you feel academics and other WP:RSes have overlooked that connection, the thing to do is to either wait until they pick up on it, to poke them and encourage them to cover, or to become an academic or WP:RS and do it yourself, then wait for us to cover it. But you can't introduce the idea here in Wikipedia first - we follow ideas published elsewhere, we don't lead. -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
The philosophical roots of the commercial peace, closely related to the concept of doux commerce, can be traced back to Aristotle, Émeric Crucé, Montesquieu, David Hume, Voltaire, Immanuel Kant, Joseph Schumpeter, Norman Angell, and classical economic theoryis Economic Interdependence and War, a book that is largely about the theory; it may be worth double-checking to make sure that it actually mentions all those people in a relevant context - a quick search of the text suggests they might not all be, but someone should look more closely. Either way, though, that's the sort of cite we need. We can cite an academic book or paper saying "Capitalist peace theory builds on the work of [list of people here]" or stuff like that; what we can't do is make that argument ourselves, which is what the Ford section is doing right now. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:43, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Ford's long-standing populism also led him to denounce militarism. The same respect for ordinary people and hostility toward entrenched wealth that had inspired his vision of the Model T were now marshaled to criticize war as a machination of the powerful and privileged. As he put it in a private conversation later that year, “Take away the capitalists and you will sweep war from the earth.”- and later:
In the United States, Ford particularly blamed Wall Street bankers and financiers, whose emphasis on profit rather than productivity made them warmongers. Louis Lochner noted that their discussions about war and peace often touched on “the financiers of Wall Street, of whom he had always spoken in contemptuous terms.” Bankers and finance capitalists were mere “speculators,” in Ford's view, who produced nothing useful but sought to take over profitable companies.Very clearly then Ford identified warmongering with some elements of capitalism, which casts doubt over whether this should be included in the article. To put it simply, he talks about how war is bad for the economy, and how a focus on business efficiency would discourage war. He doesn't directly associate capitalism, unequivocally, with peace. BeŻet ( talk) 13:22, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Pinochet vs Thatcher Falklands. Both capitalists, still went to war. Myth busted! (please sign here)
Most WP articles on concepts such as this one have a paragraph or two at the end briefly summing up the case against (typically flagged in the contents box as "Opposing Viewpoints" or language to that effect). As it stands, this entry positions capitalist peace as proven fact, since there is no mention of competing views or refutations. Laodah 21:02, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Pursuant to above, compare this entry: Democratic Peace Theory. Guide box includes the following:
8 Criticism
8.1 Statistical significance
8.2 Definitions, methodology and data
8.3 Limited consequences
[...]
10 Other explanations
10.1 Political similarity
10.2 Economic factors
10.3 Other explanations
10.4 Realist explanations
10.5 Nuclear deterrent
Laodah 21:08, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
This socalled "theory" is appalling in the face of reality. Should Wikipedia really be the place to promote such bogus? And if so, where is the obvious critique?
If you, dear reader, are unable to see the glaring headlights of reality, then please look up World War I and World War II. Both examples clearly shows that this hypothsis can't be farther from the truth. In fact, one could build a theory of "Capitalist warring" around those if you wanted to. RhinoMind ( talk) 19:31, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: procedural close. Malformed request: proposal competes with and contradicts recently closed requested move at Talk:Commercial peace#Requested move 9 August 2021. DrKay ( talk) 07:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Capitalist peace → Commercial peace – The "Commercial Peace" is a broader concept than "Capitalist Peace". The "Capitalist Peace" is one of several mechanisms for the "Commercial Peace", along with trade, financial integration, economic interdependence and so on. It makes more sense to have a page named after the broader concept and then to include the Capitalist Peace as one of the purported mechanisms for the Commercial Peace. Scholarship on the topic highlights the Commercial Peace, not the Capitalist Peace. [1] Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 21:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
An article on "Capitalist peace" should identify some capitalists. I added a short section on Henry Ford, one of the best known capitalists in world history with a focus on his peace efforts during the world wars. Rjensen ( talk) 18:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
First of all, Ford's worldview as a modern industrialist led him to view warfare as a wasteful folly. Everything he valued in terms of economic and social endeavor—an ethic of work and productivity, keen standards of efficiency, consumption and abundance among the mass of people—was violated by the wartime destruction of human beings and material resources. In a long string of pronouncements, Ford made it clear that he viewed war as an economic disaster. It destroyed human and material resources and offered a stark contrast to the positive ethos of modern industrial production....Ford also believed that war hindered long-term economic growth. “The manufacture of munitions is a thing of the minute, and after the war the whole business will crumble,” he declared in 1915. The losing side in the European conflict would likely suffer destruction of its economic infrastructure, and even the winners “will be suffering under heavy war debts and taxes.” A greater stress on business efficiency would discourage rather than encourage warfare. “If every man who manufactures an article would make [p 237] the very best he can in the very best way at the very lowest possible price the world would be kept out of war, for commercialists would not have to search for outside markets which the other fellow covets,” he argued. Ford contended that war profited only a minority of businessmen. “Preparedness means war, and war, for some few business men, means big, immediate profits,” he argued in one of his newspaper advertisements in 1916. But small businessmen faced a situation where wars “materially depleted the financial resources of the world, and the effects have been felt in all countries and localities, whether they were directly involved or not. It requires a good deal of time to recuperate from losses created by disturbances of this kind.” Big business, particularly those involved in producing munitions and armaments, might favor wars. But the majority of business, Ford reported over and over in this period, sought to avoid armed conflicts in order to concentrate on making goods, providing jobs, and generating steady profits. In the business world, he insisted, productivity trumped destructive impulses. [end Watts excerpt]
experience shaped American attitudes toward the Capitalist Peace idea--rather more than Macdonalds hamburgers did, then we need secondary sources directly connecting him to that theory. Otherwise, if you feel academics and other WP:RSes have overlooked that connection, the thing to do is to either wait until they pick up on it, to poke them and encourage them to cover, or to become an academic or WP:RS and do it yourself, then wait for us to cover it. But you can't introduce the idea here in Wikipedia first - we follow ideas published elsewhere, we don't lead. -- Aquillion ( talk) 04:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
The philosophical roots of the commercial peace, closely related to the concept of doux commerce, can be traced back to Aristotle, Émeric Crucé, Montesquieu, David Hume, Voltaire, Immanuel Kant, Joseph Schumpeter, Norman Angell, and classical economic theoryis Economic Interdependence and War, a book that is largely about the theory; it may be worth double-checking to make sure that it actually mentions all those people in a relevant context - a quick search of the text suggests they might not all be, but someone should look more closely. Either way, though, that's the sort of cite we need. We can cite an academic book or paper saying "Capitalist peace theory builds on the work of [list of people here]" or stuff like that; what we can't do is make that argument ourselves, which is what the Ford section is doing right now. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:43, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Ford's long-standing populism also led him to denounce militarism. The same respect for ordinary people and hostility toward entrenched wealth that had inspired his vision of the Model T were now marshaled to criticize war as a machination of the powerful and privileged. As he put it in a private conversation later that year, “Take away the capitalists and you will sweep war from the earth.”- and later:
In the United States, Ford particularly blamed Wall Street bankers and financiers, whose emphasis on profit rather than productivity made them warmongers. Louis Lochner noted that their discussions about war and peace often touched on “the financiers of Wall Street, of whom he had always spoken in contemptuous terms.” Bankers and finance capitalists were mere “speculators,” in Ford's view, who produced nothing useful but sought to take over profitable companies.Very clearly then Ford identified warmongering with some elements of capitalism, which casts doubt over whether this should be included in the article. To put it simply, he talks about how war is bad for the economy, and how a focus on business efficiency would discourage war. He doesn't directly associate capitalism, unequivocally, with peace. BeŻet ( talk) 13:22, 21 December 2021 (UTC)