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I fail to see how "exploitation of labourers" could be part of any serious definition of capitalism. As far as I know, only Communists employ such a definition. This should be made clear. As it is now, it just looks like "exploitation" is a neutrally accepted view adopted by most people - which it is most definetely not! The question of exploitation could be explained and treated in the criticism section, but should not be included in the definition. Luis rib 19:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
David Harvey defined capitalism in terms of three features: it is growth-oriented ("a steady state of growth is essential for the health of a capitalist economic system"); "growth in real values rests on the exploitation of living labor in production;" and it is "necessarily technologically and organizationally dynamic."
Eric Wolf defines capitalism in terms of "three intertwined characteristics:" First, capitalists detain control of the means of production. Second, laborers are denied independent access to means of production and must sell their labor power to the capitalists. Third, the maximalization of surplus produced by the laborers with the means of production owned by the capitalists entails "ceaseless accumulation accompanied by changes in the methods of production" (Sweezy 1942: 94; Mandel 1978, 103-107).
Dictionary of Critical Sociology: "A system which separates workers from any property rights in the means by which they produce culture by their labor. The system transforms the social means of subsistence into capital on the one hand and the immediate producers into wage laborers on the other hand. Most of the time, capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of production but that definition does not encompass the great harm done to humanity by the system. By claiming all (or most) of the means to produce culture as private property, a small class of owners preempts material culture to their own comfort while denying the vast majority the means to subsistence as well as the means to produce ideological culture when they are not working." Ultramarine 19:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
First, this discussion -- in which people point out that each others' definitions are POV -- was precisely the reason why a year ago or so people agreed tothe three bullet-point definition, as an inclusive basis for a more complex discussion. Second, Luis rib's point that Harvey is a geography professor and not an economics professor is irrelevant. Economists do not have a monopoly on analyses of capitalism, nor do they have any particular authority. Yes, views of economists shouold be represented, but scholars from many disciplines have provided detailed analyses of capitalism (including Harvey). Finally, RJII's claim that the definitions by Wolf and Harvey is "hearsay" is a ridiculous objection. These are paraphrases of Wolf and Harvey which is completely legitimate in Wikipedia. RJII is grasping at straws because he has done no research while others have done serious research. The sources for these definitions are Wolf, Europe and the People Without History page 78; Harvey comes from The Condition of Postmodernity page 180.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 17:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is contradictory in there? RJII 21:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine: You put the above back in after I deleted it, saying "Is it NPOV to only represent the pro-capitalist definitions?" I don't understand what you mean. How is not putting that in there pro-capitalist?? Anyway you asked for a citation that there is not consensus that the modern economies are capitalism. Here's one: "What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy" -Ayn Rand (from Playboy interview). She is a very published, influence, and noteable author ..unlike the geography professor you quoted above. Need another? "There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence" -Noam Chomsky RJII 21:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
" Communist parties still rule several nations and get many votes in many other nations. Their views are widespread." <-what are you talking about? RJII 22:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Communist parties still rule Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and China. Communist regularly get around 10% of the votes in many countries. This is certainly a more widespred view than those of Rand, anarcho-capitalits or minarchists. The Libertarian party only got under 0.5% of the votes in the US and much less for similar parties in other nations.
The private ownership of capital definition is not a Marxist definition. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong. Marx characterizes capitalism as a structure, and explains what structural features define capitalism. Just because you are ignorant of Marx does not mean that Marx didn't have a definition -- it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII is covering up for his own ignorance. Ultramarine is completely correct -- OED does not provide "Marx's definition." If you do not know what Marx's definition is, RJII, then just do not go around claiming you know what it is. But if you insist on claiming you know what it is, you must provide a source from Marx himself!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Marx does explain what capitalism is, and he does not say it is "private ownership of capital." Just because you do not know what Marx's definition of capitalism is does not mean that he does not have one, it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What difference does it make? What is important is that contributors to this article be committed to our NPOV and NOR policies. Marx explains what the capitalist mode of production is -- and it is not "private ownership of capital." If you are going to present a "Marxist definition of capitalism" you must do research and provide sources. Appropriate sources for a Marxist definition of capitalism is not a dictionary, but a book by Marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You did make such a post to the article. In this edit summary [1] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." And as I have explained, you are wrong. And although I have asked you to provide the actual source for this definition (you write "Marx" but neglected to say what book or chapter or page), you still haven't backed up your own claim. From this I infer that you have not done serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro question seems to have been resolved, could we discuss the distribution of wealth paragraph, which makes lots of assertions that seem wrong to me? In particular: where is the source for this sentence: Typically between 0.5% and 1% of people own more than half of productive capacity, if not half of all wealth? Where are the various studies? Luis rib 12:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a new intro that is hopefuly less disputatious and more rational (an explanation follows):
Capitalism is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. 4) A competitive environment exists that is favorable for owners of capital. (see definitions of capitalism for various published definitions)
Some maintain that capitalism was institutionalized between time frames approximately corresponding to the period between the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. Probably most assert that it exists in some economies today. Some assert that capitalism has never existed. Others hold that it has existed in the past but no longer exists. Noteable economists and political philosophers differ broadly in this regard.
Explanation... I used the term "typically regarded" so that stray definitions by malcontent college professors don't count. I think I've obviated any need for government to be mentioned (typical definitions out there do not mention government anyway), by pointing out "private" ownership and "private" decisions --private means government is not involved --so that takes care of laissez-faire. "Free market" is there as that is very typical in definitions. And, 4 is something that I think both Marxists and pro-capitalist individuals can agree on ...life is better if you have capital. Not only this, but it also accords with a definition of capitalism in the Oxford English as well as according to other definitions that mention competition. Finally, I took the assertion that capitalism has been established out of the definition, as that goes beyond defining capitalism, and put it in a separate pararaph noting the lack of consensus. I also added a note about Ultramarine's definitions of capitalism article. Finally, I put the conditions in sentence form as a way to help force or guide people to make coherent statements. Any objections or recommendations? RJII 14:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you think I am a vandal have the guts to say so on the "vandalism in progress page" and request mediation, arbitration, or some other action against me -- and try to prove it. Put your money where yor mouth is. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with SlimVirgin, the second paragraph is bizarre and not helpful in the intro. Will take it out, but, RJII, im not vandal. Mgw 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mgw 19:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
God has nothing to do with it. I have a problem with how this intro speaks of most definitions, then proceeds to legalistically illustrate one favourable to capitalism out of it (which I realize is the aim and POV of most involved here, so no suprises on that front). Well, it isn't the number of definitions, qunatitatively, but the impact each had, that the definition (the definition that claims it is a summary of definitions) should encompass — not one pro-capitalist definition based on this most factor.
1. Capitalism is not simply a system, as I already stated here, strongly, it is an economic system with particular economic charachteristics. As the New Webster Dictionary for the English Languages (print) pointedly states in its one sentence definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit."
2. The role of capitalists remains omitted (!). The role of wealth being highly centralized and concentrated (250 billionaires own as much wealth as 2.5 billion poorest people - a factor of a million to one), within a tiny segment of the population. This isn't merely a demographic footnote, it's absolutely pivotal as to how capitalism operates, socially and economically.
3. That modern Political economy is fundamentally based around approches to capitalism, as I stated a few weeks ago: the Left seeks to reverse it revolutionarily, the Moderate Left seeks to reverse it evolutionarily, the Moderate Right seeks to retain it in a reformed form, the Right seeks to retain it. That the article is somehow incapable of outlining this broadly and instead using the specific theories as pretext to 'give up' and opt for the most summary (which sneaks one of these through the backdoor), is not an approach I find credible.
I suggested a few weeks ago (no comments in response were provided) that the intro should aim towards something between the Economist and Monthly Review, instead (predictably), it appears to go with the former. I'm not sure why I expected more (I didn't, really, it was largely rhetorical): A definition of capitalism, written under capitalism, by a website owned by a capitalist (whose own ideological affiliation, Rand, is grossly overrepresented here, as in elsewhere in other articles, as per her own historical/political/economic/etc., impact; 'ideas of the ruling class remain, as always, the ruling ideas,' with NPOV being a mere buzz word for ours is neutral). This is all to be expected, as are the objections I posed and continue to pose, as is the fact that they are going to make no difference whatsoever, with the exception of, perhaps, making a few people think a bit more critically – that, too, is an accomplishment of sorts. Sorry, SlR, I think you are a fine anthroplogist, but this opening paragraph is one that I find highly lacking. At least it isn't original reserach, though, it's just very, very selective. Until a few decades ago –one third of the planet– was officially committed to reversing capitalism, but apperently this isn't even worth being mentioned as a minor footnote in this intro. Intellectually, historically, a grotesquely political omission.
On the other hand, we have RJII who makes an original research, abstract contradistinction which I don't find has basis in fact. S/he writes: The other, somewhat prevalant, set of definitions do not refer to the nature of economic decisions or methods of pricing and distribution but, instead, define capitalism as the private ownership of capital. I'm sorry, RJII, I have never heard of that distinction made by anyone (and I just noticed your comment now on my talk page, sorry I overlooked it the day you sent to me). Ownership explicitly intimates decisionmaking (and I don't mean just in the abstract, but historically it has and continues to) on some and/or all of these fronts; I don't know anyone that sees this (superimposed, I argue) distinction as even remotely mutually exclusive as you phrase it. On the contrary, the two fit quite well together, and have been written on extensively as an interconnected whole; so, it is my understanding that this do not refer bit is made-up stuff. I see no evidence that any of the major theories from the Left, M Left, M Right, and Right, treat it in this way.
Argh, I don't blame you SlR, but had it not been for your request, this would have remained one of several articles in the enecyclopedia that I would never, ever read, because I know, for it, NPOV is mere lip-service and it would just upset me, pointlessly, which it has. But I do hope my points above resonate, somewhat (you've heard it all, I know, but it's the context which matters). And RJII, no offence, but you need to do more research on the subject, you're treating complex theories far to simplistically and reducationistically, and originally. Yet, depite this (and I argue, because of this) unfamiliarity with the material, you are able to highlight some truths which those with greater expertise (ironically, to the left of you) are dogmatically b(l)inded (chained, even) to overlook and ommit. But such glimpses are, of course, not nearly enough. El_C 23:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no interest in engaging with polemics with you, especially on such a superficial and antagonistic level. I am disheartened that you opt merely for combativeness rather than addressing the specific items I raised. If you wish to discredit my argument (which I did expend some effort into formulating, though that seems of little consequence to you) in such a dismissive, abrasive manner, well, naturally I find that a dispiriting (but far from an unexpected) response, that remains your prerogative. El_C 11:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1)I agree that capitalism is just an economic system, and that it should be pointed out.
2)I disagree with this point. Inegality exists, and there's no doubt about that, but the numbers you cite are misleading. The billionaires you cite reside mostly in the US, which has a rather extreme version of capitalism (though admittedly sopme claim that it is the purest capitalism in existence). In Europe, inegalities are much lower, especially in the Scandinavian countries. Also, the 2.5 billion poor you cite live mostly in countries which are not capitalist, or which have only become capitalist in recent years. India, for instance, had a planned economy until the early nineties, which might (and in my opinion does) explain the wide-spread poverty that still exists there. China too only embraced capitalism in the last 20 years, and the regions that remain untouched by it (the interior provinces) are, of course, very poor. Africa has certainly the highest levels of poverty, but again almost no African country is truly capitalist. Botswana, Mauritius and South Africa are exceptions, and are also the African countries that managed to develop most. Most other countries have maintained dirigist state-controlled economies, on the Indian model. The lack of infrastructure is also a huge problem in Africa, and one that global capitalism has indeed failed to address. Latin America, finally, has the highest levels of inegality, but again in Latin America interventionist politics have prevented real free markets from emerging. Wealth is concentrated among very few people which have strong links to politicians, which prevents the competition that is necessary in true capitalism (NB: the US also partly have this problem, if you think about the shocking monopoly that Bill Gates' Microsoft is allowed to enjoy).
3)You are right that the article is messy and mixes all the ideas instead of clearly stating which political wings adopt them. Maybe a new paragraph/section should be added, which could explain these different approaches.
4) I don't know the Monthly Review. Is it an American news magazine (I live in Europe, btw). The Economist is certainly right-wing, but usually relatively neutral (at least they give arguments for their positions). In some previous version, I had suggested to add a different paragraph in the intro that would explain the marxist or left-wing definition of capitalism. Somehow, this disappeared in the following edit war. After all, why should the intro only have a single paragraph? It should, i think, have two or three, where the different positions relative to capitalism are explained. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for the minarchist (what the hell is that anyway?) or anarcho-capitalist versions. I agree with your proposal of 4 views: the marxist, the moderate left, the moderate right, and the libertarians. Concerning your comment on Communism, I maintain my rather aggressive view of it, which I wrote in my previous comment. Fascism also once controlled a big chunk of the world, yet that does not mean that the views of Fascism should be granted the same importance as other, more pacifist, views.
5) I don't think that this article is highly imbalanced, at least if you consider it as a whole. Some sections are clearly POV from a marxist point of view (worst of all, in my opinion, the Distribution of wealth section). Other sections are POV from a right-wing position. Yet if you compare this article to the article on Communism, it is a totally neutral article. Any contribution to the Communism article that tries to criticise it will immediately launch an edit war that will end with numerous counter-criticisms to the initial critique. Any single critique one makes has to be weighed by sources. I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Well, now I took some time too to answer your comment. I would gladly read your reply. Luis rib 12:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
With that preamble out of the way, I'm writing in haste so, regretfully, I will not be able to respond to your substantive comments above as I have to get going in ~5 minutes; even with what I intend to say now, I have to be brief. A word of caution first: in light of the wide-ranged scope of your comments, my response may end up being rather lengthy – perhaps we should continue the discussion on a subpage and link it here as (hopefuly) a must-read (?). Anyway, before I go, If I could quickly respond to/reference your very last sentence/query, which reads:
I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Of course to those billions, disposal income is their wealth, thus, the figures are rather similar when it is measured as such. Note that the following UN study is from 1996, the above from 1998. Since class inequality has risen so much in the last ~decade, I believe my 255 viz. 2.5Bn example is valid, but I wasn't able to trace the source for it on-the-fly, nonetheless, it is still a few hunderd individuals versus 2.x billions, so in a general sense, it makes little difference either way.
So, indeed, not a handful — as I claimed in my first comment, a few hundred. El_C 14:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Negative. I quoted you directly from my Talk page, I never said you lied, I did not mention your view in extension to Marxism, nor have I commented on your version for that matter (only SlR and UM's), except touching on your original research premise that ownership-decisionmaking are defintionally distinct — which is your original research (lifting part of it from the Oxford dictionary to create it and all the bravado in your above comment notwithstanding). You have no reference that speaks of this distintiction outright, as such, you made that stuff up yourself. At any rate, I don't believe you read my comment closely enough, nor do I think that you are sufficiently well-read or have the background to be writing about this issue. And, moreoever, you seem too emotionally immature and not accustomed to dispassionate intellectual debate. Oh, and incidentally, I take exception to your claim/insult that I have nothing better to do than write irrelevant crap, that is false: I do have better things to do! Yes, yes, I'm off to do them (wish me luck!). :) El_C 21:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Argh, no, I apologize for that. Yes, it was a bit unclear, but not that unclear. I misread you because I was writing in haste, I shouldn't have written anything. Hmm, I realize this dosen't reflect well on me. At any rate, got home after a long drive and now I need sleep. Since I'm not fully coherent, maybe I shouldn't be writing this now either (alas, I'll regret it when I wake up – how convinient is that!). Again, sorry for the harsh, misdirected words, indeed, a product of a misunderstanding (on my part). I think I should probably end this comment now and revisit this when I'm more lucid. El_C 12:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not a liar -- it is telling that when confronted with facts you retreat into personal insults. You have posted this definition in the article, and here on the talk pages -- and talk pages are for discussions about how to improve the article, and explanations for chantes to the article -- you have claimed that this is a marxist definition. Yes, the quote was taken from the talk page -- but so what? It is the "talk page" of the "Capitalism" article!!. Moreover, in this edit summary [2] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII:"Marx does not define the word "capitalism" --just as Adam Smith doesn't. I don't have to do research for a damned thing that I haven't posted in the article. I never posted anything in the article that was labeled as a Marxist definition. You're out of line. RJII 19:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Slrubenstein:I am quoting you right here: "...the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production." So yes, you obviously have posted something that you yourself labeled a "Marxist definition." The problem is, your Marxist definition is wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) RHII:You're a liar. That was taken from the Talk page. That was never posted to the article. Again, I find over and over you to be a reprehensible disingenuous individual who is a complete waste of time to have a discussion with. So, this concludes my wasting my time talking to you. I forget that I had come to that conclusion before. RJII 19:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Respond if you want, but I'm not going to respond to you. As I said, you are a waste of time for me to converse with. Find someone else to get into petty disputes with. And adjust your behavior. It is not civil to lie about fellow editors. RJII 00:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is a system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries and replaced feudalism and mercantilism. There are many, sometimes contradictory, theories and definitions of capitalism that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and in the 20th century, in the context of the Cold War. Most definitions of capitalism include some combination of the following: the right of individuals, or groups of individuals to act as corporations with distinct legal personality, to own and trade private property including capital goods and land in a competitive environment in the form of a free or relatively free market, where price and wages are determined by supply and demand, and where there is investment for profit, with risks being assumed by the investors and investment decisions being made privately; the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; explicit and implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
I put "labor" back in the first paragraph. There is no doubt that in capitalist economies labor is a commodity -- economists talk about labor markets all the time, and all big business have offices of "human resources." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct -- I should have said "labor power." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please note, too, that the first paragraph is not a definition of capitalism but a list of elements that are found in various definitions of capitalism. Some definitions do not include a concept of "labor-power" but some do. the same can be said for other elements. NPOV requires as inclusive a list as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV does not require wrong facts to be included. Labour power cannot be owned, therefore it is not a good. It's as easy as that. Also, the sentence talks about capital goods, which are in exact opposition to labour power. The previous intro already states that wages are determined by supply and demand. I think that's clear enough. Luis rib 21:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rand was a seminal figure in putting forward capitalism as an ideology that was defensible on moral grounds rather than just practical grounds. She was influential beyond just those roids that called themselves objectivists, and her works were the second only to the bible in sale for many years. In a sense she helped to bring capitalism "out of the closet", and should be given her due. I was a bit surprised to find only an external link reference. There was one reference to Milton Friedman that I spotted that was also a natural place to include her and perhaps her one time associate, Greenspan.-- Silverback 12:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There can be only two solutions:
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As the revert war continues, would this do as a compromise?
Capitalism, also known as the free market, is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. It is typically regarded as comprising the following: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties. SlimVirgin 15:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Which part(s) of my compromise constitute original research, would you say? SlimVirgin 15:19, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism' is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market.
Silverback, your intro is very definitely OR. I'd revert, but now have no idea which version to revert to. RJII, what is wrong, in your view, with the capitalism arose sentence? It's quite factual. There's no need to say privately or corporately owned, because we later say what a corporation is. Also your version makes no mention of the state's protection of property rights which is crucial. And you don't say what a corporation is. And capitalism isn't a social system; it's an economic system. I'm not sure what "economic and social system" means in this context. And the means of production are mostly privately owned. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone on this page have a degree in economics or a closely related subject? Because, if so, I think we should be guided by that person. SlimVirgin 15:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've left a note for an editor who has a degree in economics, but he may not have time to help out. Ultramarine, what would your introduction be, if you could write whatever you wanted (bearing in mind NPOV and NOR)? SlimVirgin 16:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an example that lists the elements of all defintions:
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
the right of individuals to own, and trade private property including capital goods; the right of groups of individuals to act as a corporation with distinct legal personality and responsibility; the strong protection of these rights; the existence of an strong enforcement of contractual agreements and peaceful settlements of disagrements by a third party; a free or relatively free market where price is determined by supply and demand; private investment for profit with the risk of loss of the investment; competition for this profit; following feudalism; today dominant in the Western world; today not present in a pure form but only partially in the current "mixed economy"; never achieved in its pure form; in anarcho-capitalist theory, peaceful, voluntary exchange which is fully realized only without a state; in marxist theory, exploitation of workers by the owners of capital; in minarchist theory, the role of government is limited mostly to protecting economic liberty and private property." Ultramarine 16:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That looks good. It's quite similar to this version [3], which I think is Slrubenstein's. SlimVirgin 16:39, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
The marxist definition is not a good faith definition, it is a strawman, intended to be dismissive or a criticism. The way you can tell, is to check the marxist definition of communism. Is it the "exploitation of workers by fellow workers" or the "exploitation of workers by the state". Obviously, exploitation is intended to be pejorative rather than informative.-- Silverback 16:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Das Kapital is one of the most important or definitive descriptions of capitalism. It's appropriate to mention Marx in the introduction. SlimVirgin 16:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to return to the bullet point version. Ultramarine's version is inferior to the two versions we were discussing, so we should forget about it. Also, as I mentioned in my comment to El C, we could have two intro paragraphs, one being the definition part (i.e. one of the two we were considering, or modifications of those), followed by a paragraph explaining the diverging definitions by marxists and libertarians. Luis rib 16:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Influential non-academics like Rand and Marx are also important. Neither did much publishing in peer reviewed journals. Important politicians are also good sources. -- Silverback 18:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Academic and non-academic research and philosophy from noteable authors commonly contain disparate opinions on how capitalism should best be defined or characterized. However, "capitalism," as defined in the most widely-disseminated and consulted dictionaries, is typically described as an economic system being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. RJII 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about something like the beginning of this article (but written in a more NPOV version): http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch9.asp Luis rib 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This quote is from Dr. John Hospers, who was head of the Dept. of Philosophy at USC at the time.-- Silverback 18:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another term associated with laissez faire is capitalism. This again is a term of indefinite meaning depending upon who uses it. It is employed by the enemies of the American system for purposes of slur. -- Herbert Hoover
Capitalism is a system of exchangable private-property rights in goods and services, with the central government, protecting and enforcing these rights. Private-property rights, in turn, can be defined as the rights of owners to choose the use of their goods and resources (including labor and time) as they see fit. -- "Exchange and Production" by Alchian & Allen.
-- Silverback 19:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless, in most modern capitalist economies the State attempts to maintain a certain degree of economic planning (using such tools as allowing the country's central bank to set base interest rates) in order to discourage economic instability and provide greater longer-term direction (disputed — see talk page).
Some economists would argue that instability is the effect of government manipulation of the money supply which causes intertemporal distortions in the interest rate and deviations from the "natural" rate of interest, resulting in a misallocation of capital resulting in business "cycles". Central banks are used to borrow money on behalf of the populace or future generations without their consent, because the debt of a State must eventually be paid off by its citizens; this method of finance also hides the true cost of government spending, for with taxation the participants know how much is being used, but with inflation these costs are spread unevenly throughtout the economy and cause the phenomenon of inflation.
RJII, the version preferred by User:JoshG, User:JMaxwell and myself is a little more encyclopedic than the version you keep reverting to, in my view. If you and Ultramarine feel there's material missing from it, would it not make more sense to add a second paragraph containing that material, rather than to revert continually? I don't know why you feel there's no evidence to support the edit that capitalism arose out of feudalism and mercantilism: it's in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you want a reference, so it shouldn't be deleted. You might also want to be careful that you don't violate 3RR, as this isn't worth getting blocked for. SlimVirgin 15:00, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine, I was under the impression you supported RJII's latest version. Here's the one I support: it's not what I'd write left to my own devices, but I'm happy with it as a compromise. If you agree, there's no reason to allow this other version to constantly be reverted to. RJII, I wasn't being patronizing and I'm sorry it sounded that way. I do actually have a genuine concern not to see you blocked. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I came across this quote from Jimbo Wales the other day, and it seems particularly apt regarding an article on capitalism. SlimVirgin 16:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I frequently counsel people who are getting frustrated about an edit war to think about someone who lives without clean drinking water, without any proper means of education, and how our work might someday help that person. It puts flamewars into some perspective, I think. — Jimbo Wales [7]
That would be an unusual interpretation of the quote. Not everyone finds it fun. Some find it quite upsetting, and it's almost never good for articles; and we're here to write articles. SlimVirgin 16:46, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Perhaps. But don't forget that's a process that invariably has casualties. There are less hazardous ways. SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a dictionary def that you would probably argue includes unnecessary detail:
Mode of socio-economic organization in which a class of entrepeneurs and entrepeneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, ed. Simon Blackburn, 1996 SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
LOL! I'm starting to think we need a definition of dictionary, and a definition of definition. Someone find us a meta-dictionary please. ;-) I only offered the above as an illustration of how dictionary definitions vary. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Silverback is doing some real research. Ultramarine, you should read Friedman, I'll read Adam Smith, and as a punishment, RJII can be assigned Das Kapital. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Some people want the intro to say that capitalism is typically defined as a system where the "predominate" or "most" of the means of production are privately owned. But, that's not a typical definition of capitalism. There is no such qualifier in the typical definitions of capitalism. So, that's "original research" --a violation of Wikipedia policy. I wouldn't ordinarly be such a stickler but that seems to be the attitude around here, and that claim has been used against me. RJII 16:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please provide a source or sources showing that the EB is an atypical definition. Also, a mention of what capitalism replaced and arose out of IS part of the description. At some point, this discussion of what a definition is has to stop. Wikipedia intros are supposed to follow the upside pyramid to some extent and offer a brief overview of the subject, not restrict themselves to dictionary definitions. I've restored the consensus introduction, and am pasting it below. If you want to make changes, please make them on this talk page, and then discuss them, instead of continually reverting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. There is some debate regarding the exact definition [10] of capitalism, but most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
"most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ... " SlimVirgin 17:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Please read what it says. "Most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ..." That doesn't mean that most include all of the following. I didn't substitute typical with most. What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that e.g. the UK under Margaret Thatcher (the most capitalist of British prime ministers) did not have a capitalist economy because the state retained ownership of a few industries? SlimVirgin 17:16, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. Please be explicit, and please note that I have no POV when it comes to finding a description of capitalism. Regarding your recent edit of the words "correct definition," there is no such thing as a "correct" definition in a situation like this. Precise, agreed, or exact definition would all work better. Also, for the record, I note that you're using misleading edit summaries, e.g. calling the last edit "remove quote marks," when in fact you made a partial revert. [11]. I'm happy to debate this issue with you, but I will not get into a fight about it, or have meta-discussions about what the word "definition" means. SlimVirgin 17:26, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute this unqualified assertion. Noteable theorists do not agree. For example, Rand says that capitalism has yet to exist, hence the title of her book "The Unknown Ideal." Noam Chomsky says that capitalism does not exist. As far as the replacing feudalism statement, Oppenhemier says that capitalism is a blending of feudalism and markets. RJII 17:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the authorities (like Smith, Marx, Greenspan, DeSoto, Rand) consider capitalism to have evolved from feodalism and rely on state protection. In fact, probably everyone except anarcho-capitalists. Their minority view should not dominate the article. Ultramarine 17:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of this could be resolved if the definition is limited to the content of the "typical" definition. It's the only way I know of to minimize POV. RJII 17:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you write it here for discussion, but please note that Chomsky is not an authoritative source. Also, it would help to expand a little, in a scholarly way, rather than just saying "according to some, e.g. Rand, capitalism has never existed." SlimVirgin 17:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Changing the statement to this should suit Rand and Oppenheimer: "Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, evolving out of feodalism and mercantilism, although some argue that there has never been a completely pure form" Ultramarine 18:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note, I have added some quotations from Encarta Referenece Libarary to definitions of capitalism since RJII asked for more sources. Ultramarine 18:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about this: "Capitalism is an economic system that evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism" Ultramarine 18:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Tried out new formulation. Maybe it's more consensual. Luis rib 18:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removed industrial revolution, it emerged from capitalism, not from feodalism, according to every source I have read. Suggest this:
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [12] of capitalism, but most definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, except point 7), which is not really a definiton. I would finish the sentence after point 6). Then continue with: It evolved out of.... Luis rib 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion (changed to mainstream definitions) And definitions can included history, see for example MW definition of "bronze age":
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [13] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I personnally prefer the initial version (i.e. the one RJ does not like), where feudalism is mentioned in the first or last sentence, but is not part of the enumeration of definitions. But I won't revert it; it's a minor, rather stylistic point, and definitely not worth an edit war. Luis rib 19:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.3 Wikify, grammar, mostly privately owned, means of production like capital. Not all of mainstream definitions include feudalism so it should be mentioned in the list. Otherwise there is an impression that all definitions include this.
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [14] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) The means of production like capital are mostly privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private- property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.4 Removed means of productions as Capital should be enough, removed duplicate mentioning of profit
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [15] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) Capital is mostly privately owned; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a B.S. statement meant to slide POV in. Why list characteristics that are not in most definitions. One could list an infinite number of characteristics that are not included in most definitions. "Some of" needs to be deleted. RJII 19:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is not typical of mainsteam definitions, and for good reason. If only 51% of the means of production are privately owned is it still capitalism? Of course not. That's indisputably a "mixed economy." The list of characteristics should be what is typically found in mainstream definitions. Yes, the Encyclopedia Britannica says "most", but, as I've said many times, encyclopedias are not dictionaries; dictionaries are the commonly-consulted source for definitions. RJII 20:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Rv. Show policy that Enyclopedia Brittancia cannot be used as a source" <--what is this? No one is claiming that EB cannot be used as a source. I am claiming that the definition there is not typical of mainstream definitions beause it says "most." Why not represent what's typical of mainstream definitions instead of insisting on just one atypical one? Is it because this one suits your POV? RJII 20:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, how ludicrous is it for you to criticize someone for edit warring when you're centrally involved in the edit war? Get a grip. RJII 20:44, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Predominant" is a better word here than "mostly." The "predominant" means of production is that which gives its tone to the rest, which "dominates" the system. Govt-owned systems such as the TVA exist in the US, but they take their tone from the predominantly private system. It isn't a matter of percentages. -- Christofurio 03:42, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Taxman (note: I asked Taxman's opinion because he has degrees in economics and the mathematics of finance)
Taxman, I wonder whether you have any time to look in on Talk:Capitalism. There's a dispute (and revert war) regarding the introduction and what it should say. One editor feels that the current introduction states or implies that capitalism has been "implemented," and that this is POV. I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the argument, and can only ask for authoritative sources for the claim that capitalism has not been "implemented" (by which I take it he means it has never existed in a pure form). Do you know whether this is a tiny-minority view of the kind that should not be referred to in the introduction? Or if it is a mainstream view, can you refer us to an authoritative, academic source? If you don't have time, however, that's fine, I understand. Best, SlimVirgin 19:28, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
A relatively pure/idealistic definition of capitalism such as the anarcho's might choose, should be allowed to dominate if not monopolize the introduction, just as the ideal does at Communism and Anarchy. It is a basic lack of courtesy that has allowed this controversy to continue. Pet peeves and historical interpretations should not have to be in the intro. -- Silverback 13:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strange that they locked the page. I thought a general consensus was starting to materialize --that we were going to provide the most common mainstream definition, rather than POV push. RJII 14:26, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You have written this on anarcho-capitalism on Feb 19 and has since then tried to change the introduction of the Capitalism article to this anarcho-capitalist definition:
"1. It is important in understanding anarcho-capitalism that the definition of "capitalism" to which is referred by the school of thought is one that refers to a free market. For example, Merriam-Webster defines capitalism as: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." This differs from some other definitions that make no mention of a "free market" but instead refer to the private ownership of the means of production." [17] Ultramarine 14:49, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how "exploitation of labourers" could be part of any serious definition of capitalism. As far as I know, only Communists employ such a definition. This should be made clear. As it is now, it just looks like "exploitation" is a neutrally accepted view adopted by most people - which it is most definetely not! The question of exploitation could be explained and treated in the criticism section, but should not be included in the definition. Luis rib 19:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
David Harvey defined capitalism in terms of three features: it is growth-oriented ("a steady state of growth is essential for the health of a capitalist economic system"); "growth in real values rests on the exploitation of living labor in production;" and it is "necessarily technologically and organizationally dynamic."
Eric Wolf defines capitalism in terms of "three intertwined characteristics:" First, capitalists detain control of the means of production. Second, laborers are denied independent access to means of production and must sell their labor power to the capitalists. Third, the maximalization of surplus produced by the laborers with the means of production owned by the capitalists entails "ceaseless accumulation accompanied by changes in the methods of production" (Sweezy 1942: 94; Mandel 1978, 103-107).
Dictionary of Critical Sociology: "A system which separates workers from any property rights in the means by which they produce culture by their labor. The system transforms the social means of subsistence into capital on the one hand and the immediate producers into wage laborers on the other hand. Most of the time, capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of production but that definition does not encompass the great harm done to humanity by the system. By claiming all (or most) of the means to produce culture as private property, a small class of owners preempts material culture to their own comfort while denying the vast majority the means to subsistence as well as the means to produce ideological culture when they are not working." Ultramarine 19:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
First, this discussion -- in which people point out that each others' definitions are POV -- was precisely the reason why a year ago or so people agreed tothe three bullet-point definition, as an inclusive basis for a more complex discussion. Second, Luis rib's point that Harvey is a geography professor and not an economics professor is irrelevant. Economists do not have a monopoly on analyses of capitalism, nor do they have any particular authority. Yes, views of economists shouold be represented, but scholars from many disciplines have provided detailed analyses of capitalism (including Harvey). Finally, RJII's claim that the definitions by Wolf and Harvey is "hearsay" is a ridiculous objection. These are paraphrases of Wolf and Harvey which is completely legitimate in Wikipedia. RJII is grasping at straws because he has done no research while others have done serious research. The sources for these definitions are Wolf, Europe and the People Without History page 78; Harvey comes from The Condition of Postmodernity page 180.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 17:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is contradictory in there? RJII 21:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine: You put the above back in after I deleted it, saying "Is it NPOV to only represent the pro-capitalist definitions?" I don't understand what you mean. How is not putting that in there pro-capitalist?? Anyway you asked for a citation that there is not consensus that the modern economies are capitalism. Here's one: "What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy" -Ayn Rand (from Playboy interview). She is a very published, influence, and noteable author ..unlike the geography professor you quoted above. Need another? "There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence" -Noam Chomsky RJII 21:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
" Communist parties still rule several nations and get many votes in many other nations. Their views are widespread." <-what are you talking about? RJII 22:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Communist parties still rule Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and China. Communist regularly get around 10% of the votes in many countries. This is certainly a more widespred view than those of Rand, anarcho-capitalits or minarchists. The Libertarian party only got under 0.5% of the votes in the US and much less for similar parties in other nations.
The private ownership of capital definition is not a Marxist definition. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong. Marx characterizes capitalism as a structure, and explains what structural features define capitalism. Just because you are ignorant of Marx does not mean that Marx didn't have a definition -- it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII is covering up for his own ignorance. Ultramarine is completely correct -- OED does not provide "Marx's definition." If you do not know what Marx's definition is, RJII, then just do not go around claiming you know what it is. But if you insist on claiming you know what it is, you must provide a source from Marx himself!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Marx does explain what capitalism is, and he does not say it is "private ownership of capital." Just because you do not know what Marx's definition of capitalism is does not mean that he does not have one, it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What difference does it make? What is important is that contributors to this article be committed to our NPOV and NOR policies. Marx explains what the capitalist mode of production is -- and it is not "private ownership of capital." If you are going to present a "Marxist definition of capitalism" you must do research and provide sources. Appropriate sources for a Marxist definition of capitalism is not a dictionary, but a book by Marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You did make such a post to the article. In this edit summary [18] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." And as I have explained, you are wrong. And although I have asked you to provide the actual source for this definition (you write "Marx" but neglected to say what book or chapter or page), you still haven't backed up your own claim. From this I infer that you have not done serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro question seems to have been resolved, could we discuss the distribution of wealth paragraph, which makes lots of assertions that seem wrong to me? In particular: where is the source for this sentence: Typically between 0.5% and 1% of people own more than half of productive capacity, if not half of all wealth? Where are the various studies? Luis rib 12:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a new intro that is hopefuly less disputatious and more rational (an explanation follows):
Capitalism is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. 4) A competitive environment exists that is favorable for owners of capital. (see definitions of capitalism for various published definitions)
Some maintain that capitalism was institutionalized between time frames approximately corresponding to the period between the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. Probably most assert that it exists in some economies today. Some assert that capitalism has never existed. Others hold that it has existed in the past but no longer exists. Noteable economists and political philosophers differ broadly in this regard.
Explanation... I used the term "typically regarded" so that stray definitions by malcontent college professors don't count. I think I've obviated any need for government to be mentioned (typical definitions out there do not mention government anyway), by pointing out "private" ownership and "private" decisions --private means government is not involved --so that takes care of laissez-faire. "Free market" is there as that is very typical in definitions. And, 4 is something that I think both Marxists and pro-capitalist individuals can agree on ...life is better if you have capital. Not only this, but it also accords with a definition of capitalism in the Oxford English as well as according to other definitions that mention competition. Finally, I took the assertion that capitalism has been established out of the definition, as that goes beyond defining capitalism, and put it in a separate pararaph noting the lack of consensus. I also added a note about Ultramarine's definitions of capitalism article. Finally, I put the conditions in sentence form as a way to help force or guide people to make coherent statements. Any objections or recommendations? RJII 14:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you think I am a vandal have the guts to say so on the "vandalism in progress page" and request mediation, arbitration, or some other action against me -- and try to prove it. Put your money where yor mouth is. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with SlimVirgin, the second paragraph is bizarre and not helpful in the intro. Will take it out, but, RJII, im not vandal. Mgw 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mgw 19:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
God has nothing to do with it. I have a problem with how this intro speaks of most definitions, then proceeds to legalistically illustrate one favourable to capitalism out of it (which I realize is the aim and POV of most involved here, so no suprises on that front). Well, it isn't the number of definitions, qunatitatively, but the impact each had, that the definition (the definition that claims it is a summary of definitions) should encompass — not one pro-capitalist definition based on this most factor.
1. Capitalism is not simply a system, as I already stated here, strongly, it is an economic system with particular economic charachteristics. As the New Webster Dictionary for the English Languages (print) pointedly states in its one sentence definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit."
2. The role of capitalists remains omitted (!). The role of wealth being highly centralized and concentrated (250 billionaires own as much wealth as 2.5 billion poorest people - a factor of a million to one), within a tiny segment of the population. This isn't merely a demographic footnote, it's absolutely pivotal as to how capitalism operates, socially and economically.
3. That modern Political economy is fundamentally based around approches to capitalism, as I stated a few weeks ago: the Left seeks to reverse it revolutionarily, the Moderate Left seeks to reverse it evolutionarily, the Moderate Right seeks to retain it in a reformed form, the Right seeks to retain it. That the article is somehow incapable of outlining this broadly and instead using the specific theories as pretext to 'give up' and opt for the most summary (which sneaks one of these through the backdoor), is not an approach I find credible.
I suggested a few weeks ago (no comments in response were provided) that the intro should aim towards something between the Economist and Monthly Review, instead (predictably), it appears to go with the former. I'm not sure why I expected more (I didn't, really, it was largely rhetorical): A definition of capitalism, written under capitalism, by a website owned by a capitalist (whose own ideological affiliation, Rand, is grossly overrepresented here, as in elsewhere in other articles, as per her own historical/political/economic/etc., impact; 'ideas of the ruling class remain, as always, the ruling ideas,' with NPOV being a mere buzz word for ours is neutral). This is all to be expected, as are the objections I posed and continue to pose, as is the fact that they are going to make no difference whatsoever, with the exception of, perhaps, making a few people think a bit more critically – that, too, is an accomplishment of sorts. Sorry, SlR, I think you are a fine anthroplogist, but this opening paragraph is one that I find highly lacking. At least it isn't original reserach, though, it's just very, very selective. Until a few decades ago –one third of the planet– was officially committed to reversing capitalism, but apperently this isn't even worth being mentioned as a minor footnote in this intro. Intellectually, historically, a grotesquely political omission.
On the other hand, we have RJII who makes an original research, abstract contradistinction which I don't find has basis in fact. S/he writes: The other, somewhat prevalant, set of definitions do not refer to the nature of economic decisions or methods of pricing and distribution but, instead, define capitalism as the private ownership of capital. I'm sorry, RJII, I have never heard of that distinction made by anyone (and I just noticed your comment now on my talk page, sorry I overlooked it the day you sent to me). Ownership explicitly intimates decisionmaking (and I don't mean just in the abstract, but historically it has and continues to) on some and/or all of these fronts; I don't know anyone that sees this (superimposed, I argue) distinction as even remotely mutually exclusive as you phrase it. On the contrary, the two fit quite well together, and have been written on extensively as an interconnected whole; so, it is my understanding that this do not refer bit is made-up stuff. I see no evidence that any of the major theories from the Left, M Left, M Right, and Right, treat it in this way.
Argh, I don't blame you SlR, but had it not been for your request, this would have remained one of several articles in the enecyclopedia that I would never, ever read, because I know, for it, NPOV is mere lip-service and it would just upset me, pointlessly, which it has. But I do hope my points above resonate, somewhat (you've heard it all, I know, but it's the context which matters). And RJII, no offence, but you need to do more research on the subject, you're treating complex theories far to simplistically and reducationistically, and originally. Yet, depite this (and I argue, because of this) unfamiliarity with the material, you are able to highlight some truths which those with greater expertise (ironically, to the left of you) are dogmatically b(l)inded (chained, even) to overlook and ommit. But such glimpses are, of course, not nearly enough. El_C 23:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no interest in engaging with polemics with you, especially on such a superficial and antagonistic level. I am disheartened that you opt merely for combativeness rather than addressing the specific items I raised. If you wish to discredit my argument (which I did expend some effort into formulating, though that seems of little consequence to you) in such a dismissive, abrasive manner, well, naturally I find that a dispiriting (but far from an unexpected) response, that remains your prerogative. El_C 11:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1)I agree that capitalism is just an economic system, and that it should be pointed out.
2)I disagree with this point. Inegality exists, and there's no doubt about that, but the numbers you cite are misleading. The billionaires you cite reside mostly in the US, which has a rather extreme version of capitalism (though admittedly sopme claim that it is the purest capitalism in existence). In Europe, inegalities are much lower, especially in the Scandinavian countries. Also, the 2.5 billion poor you cite live mostly in countries which are not capitalist, or which have only become capitalist in recent years. India, for instance, had a planned economy until the early nineties, which might (and in my opinion does) explain the wide-spread poverty that still exists there. China too only embraced capitalism in the last 20 years, and the regions that remain untouched by it (the interior provinces) are, of course, very poor. Africa has certainly the highest levels of poverty, but again almost no African country is truly capitalist. Botswana, Mauritius and South Africa are exceptions, and are also the African countries that managed to develop most. Most other countries have maintained dirigist state-controlled economies, on the Indian model. The lack of infrastructure is also a huge problem in Africa, and one that global capitalism has indeed failed to address. Latin America, finally, has the highest levels of inegality, but again in Latin America interventionist politics have prevented real free markets from emerging. Wealth is concentrated among very few people which have strong links to politicians, which prevents the competition that is necessary in true capitalism (NB: the US also partly have this problem, if you think about the shocking monopoly that Bill Gates' Microsoft is allowed to enjoy).
3)You are right that the article is messy and mixes all the ideas instead of clearly stating which political wings adopt them. Maybe a new paragraph/section should be added, which could explain these different approaches.
4) I don't know the Monthly Review. Is it an American news magazine (I live in Europe, btw). The Economist is certainly right-wing, but usually relatively neutral (at least they give arguments for their positions). In some previous version, I had suggested to add a different paragraph in the intro that would explain the marxist or left-wing definition of capitalism. Somehow, this disappeared in the following edit war. After all, why should the intro only have a single paragraph? It should, i think, have two or three, where the different positions relative to capitalism are explained. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for the minarchist (what the hell is that anyway?) or anarcho-capitalist versions. I agree with your proposal of 4 views: the marxist, the moderate left, the moderate right, and the libertarians. Concerning your comment on Communism, I maintain my rather aggressive view of it, which I wrote in my previous comment. Fascism also once controlled a big chunk of the world, yet that does not mean that the views of Fascism should be granted the same importance as other, more pacifist, views.
5) I don't think that this article is highly imbalanced, at least if you consider it as a whole. Some sections are clearly POV from a marxist point of view (worst of all, in my opinion, the Distribution of wealth section). Other sections are POV from a right-wing position. Yet if you compare this article to the article on Communism, it is a totally neutral article. Any contribution to the Communism article that tries to criticise it will immediately launch an edit war that will end with numerous counter-criticisms to the initial critique. Any single critique one makes has to be weighed by sources. I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Well, now I took some time too to answer your comment. I would gladly read your reply. Luis rib 12:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
With that preamble out of the way, I'm writing in haste so, regretfully, I will not be able to respond to your substantive comments above as I have to get going in ~5 minutes; even with what I intend to say now, I have to be brief. A word of caution first: in light of the wide-ranged scope of your comments, my response may end up being rather lengthy – perhaps we should continue the discussion on a subpage and link it here as (hopefuly) a must-read (?). Anyway, before I go, If I could quickly respond to/reference your very last sentence/query, which reads:
I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Of course to those billions, disposal income is their wealth, thus, the figures are rather similar when it is measured as such. Note that the following UN study is from 1996, the above from 1998. Since class inequality has risen so much in the last ~decade, I believe my 255 viz. 2.5Bn example is valid, but I wasn't able to trace the source for it on-the-fly, nonetheless, it is still a few hunderd individuals versus 2.x billions, so in a general sense, it makes little difference either way.
So, indeed, not a handful — as I claimed in my first comment, a few hundred. El_C 14:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Negative. I quoted you directly from my Talk page, I never said you lied, I did not mention your view in extension to Marxism, nor have I commented on your version for that matter (only SlR and UM's), except touching on your original research premise that ownership-decisionmaking are defintionally distinct — which is your original research (lifting part of it from the Oxford dictionary to create it and all the bravado in your above comment notwithstanding). You have no reference that speaks of this distintiction outright, as such, you made that stuff up yourself. At any rate, I don't believe you read my comment closely enough, nor do I think that you are sufficiently well-read or have the background to be writing about this issue. And, moreoever, you seem too emotionally immature and not accustomed to dispassionate intellectual debate. Oh, and incidentally, I take exception to your claim/insult that I have nothing better to do than write irrelevant crap, that is false: I do have better things to do! Yes, yes, I'm off to do them (wish me luck!). :) El_C 21:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Argh, no, I apologize for that. Yes, it was a bit unclear, but not that unclear. I misread you because I was writing in haste, I shouldn't have written anything. Hmm, I realize this dosen't reflect well on me. At any rate, got home after a long drive and now I need sleep. Since I'm not fully coherent, maybe I shouldn't be writing this now either (alas, I'll regret it when I wake up – how convinient is that!). Again, sorry for the harsh, misdirected words, indeed, a product of a misunderstanding (on my part). I think I should probably end this comment now and revisit this when I'm more lucid. El_C 12:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not a liar -- it is telling that when confronted with facts you retreat into personal insults. You have posted this definition in the article, and here on the talk pages -- and talk pages are for discussions about how to improve the article, and explanations for chantes to the article -- you have claimed that this is a marxist definition. Yes, the quote was taken from the talk page -- but so what? It is the "talk page" of the "Capitalism" article!!. Moreover, in this edit summary [19] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII:"Marx does not define the word "capitalism" --just as Adam Smith doesn't. I don't have to do research for a damned thing that I haven't posted in the article. I never posted anything in the article that was labeled as a Marxist definition. You're out of line. RJII 19:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Slrubenstein:I am quoting you right here: "...the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production." So yes, you obviously have posted something that you yourself labeled a "Marxist definition." The problem is, your Marxist definition is wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) RHII:You're a liar. That was taken from the Talk page. That was never posted to the article. Again, I find over and over you to be a reprehensible disingenuous individual who is a complete waste of time to have a discussion with. So, this concludes my wasting my time talking to you. I forget that I had come to that conclusion before. RJII 19:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Respond if you want, but I'm not going to respond to you. As I said, you are a waste of time for me to converse with. Find someone else to get into petty disputes with. And adjust your behavior. It is not civil to lie about fellow editors. RJII 00:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is a system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries and replaced feudalism and mercantilism. There are many, sometimes contradictory, theories and definitions of capitalism that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and in the 20th century, in the context of the Cold War. Most definitions of capitalism include some combination of the following: the right of individuals, or groups of individuals to act as corporations with distinct legal personality, to own and trade private property including capital goods and land in a competitive environment in the form of a free or relatively free market, where price and wages are determined by supply and demand, and where there is investment for profit, with risks being assumed by the investors and investment decisions being made privately; the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; explicit and implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
I put "labor" back in the first paragraph. There is no doubt that in capitalist economies labor is a commodity -- economists talk about labor markets all the time, and all big business have offices of "human resources." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct -- I should have said "labor power." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please note, too, that the first paragraph is not a definition of capitalism but a list of elements that are found in various definitions of capitalism. Some definitions do not include a concept of "labor-power" but some do. the same can be said for other elements. NPOV requires as inclusive a list as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV does not require wrong facts to be included. Labour power cannot be owned, therefore it is not a good. It's as easy as that. Also, the sentence talks about capital goods, which are in exact opposition to labour power. The previous intro already states that wages are determined by supply and demand. I think that's clear enough. Luis rib 21:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rand was a seminal figure in putting forward capitalism as an ideology that was defensible on moral grounds rather than just practical grounds. She was influential beyond just those roids that called themselves objectivists, and her works were the second only to the bible in sale for many years. In a sense she helped to bring capitalism "out of the closet", and should be given her due. I was a bit surprised to find only an external link reference. There was one reference to Milton Friedman that I spotted that was also a natural place to include her and perhaps her one time associate, Greenspan.-- Silverback 12:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There can be only two solutions:
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As the revert war continues, would this do as a compromise?
Capitalism, also known as the free market, is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. It is typically regarded as comprising the following: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties. SlimVirgin 15:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Which part(s) of my compromise constitute original research, would you say? SlimVirgin 15:19, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism' is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market.
Silverback, your intro is very definitely OR. I'd revert, but now have no idea which version to revert to. RJII, what is wrong, in your view, with the capitalism arose sentence? It's quite factual. There's no need to say privately or corporately owned, because we later say what a corporation is. Also your version makes no mention of the state's protection of property rights which is crucial. And you don't say what a corporation is. And capitalism isn't a social system; it's an economic system. I'm not sure what "economic and social system" means in this context. And the means of production are mostly privately owned. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone on this page have a degree in economics or a closely related subject? Because, if so, I think we should be guided by that person. SlimVirgin 15:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've left a note for an editor who has a degree in economics, but he may not have time to help out. Ultramarine, what would your introduction be, if you could write whatever you wanted (bearing in mind NPOV and NOR)? SlimVirgin 16:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an example that lists the elements of all defintions:
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
the right of individuals to own, and trade private property including capital goods; the right of groups of individuals to act as a corporation with distinct legal personality and responsibility; the strong protection of these rights; the existence of an strong enforcement of contractual agreements and peaceful settlements of disagrements by a third party; a free or relatively free market where price is determined by supply and demand; private investment for profit with the risk of loss of the investment; competition for this profit; following feudalism; today dominant in the Western world; today not present in a pure form but only partially in the current "mixed economy"; never achieved in its pure form; in anarcho-capitalist theory, peaceful, voluntary exchange which is fully realized only without a state; in marxist theory, exploitation of workers by the owners of capital; in minarchist theory, the role of government is limited mostly to protecting economic liberty and private property." Ultramarine 16:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That looks good. It's quite similar to this version [20], which I think is Slrubenstein's. SlimVirgin 16:39, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
The marxist definition is not a good faith definition, it is a strawman, intended to be dismissive or a criticism. The way you can tell, is to check the marxist definition of communism. Is it the "exploitation of workers by fellow workers" or the "exploitation of workers by the state". Obviously, exploitation is intended to be pejorative rather than informative.-- Silverback 16:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Das Kapital is one of the most important or definitive descriptions of capitalism. It's appropriate to mention Marx in the introduction. SlimVirgin 16:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to return to the bullet point version. Ultramarine's version is inferior to the two versions we were discussing, so we should forget about it. Also, as I mentioned in my comment to El C, we could have two intro paragraphs, one being the definition part (i.e. one of the two we were considering, or modifications of those), followed by a paragraph explaining the diverging definitions by marxists and libertarians. Luis rib 16:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Influential non-academics like Rand and Marx are also important. Neither did much publishing in peer reviewed journals. Important politicians are also good sources. -- Silverback 18:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Academic and non-academic research and philosophy from noteable authors commonly contain disparate opinions on how capitalism should best be defined or characterized. However, "capitalism," as defined in the most widely-disseminated and consulted dictionaries, is typically described as an economic system being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. RJII 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about something like the beginning of this article (but written in a more NPOV version): http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch9.asp Luis rib 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This quote is from Dr. John Hospers, who was head of the Dept. of Philosophy at USC at the time.-- Silverback 18:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another term associated with laissez faire is capitalism. This again is a term of indefinite meaning depending upon who uses it. It is employed by the enemies of the American system for purposes of slur. -- Herbert Hoover
Capitalism is a system of exchangable private-property rights in goods and services, with the central government, protecting and enforcing these rights. Private-property rights, in turn, can be defined as the rights of owners to choose the use of their goods and resources (including labor and time) as they see fit. -- "Exchange and Production" by Alchian & Allen.
-- Silverback 19:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless, in most modern capitalist economies the State attempts to maintain a certain degree of economic planning (using such tools as allowing the country's central bank to set base interest rates) in order to discourage economic instability and provide greater longer-term direction (disputed — see talk page).
Some economists would argue that instability is the effect of government manipulation of the money supply which causes intertemporal distortions in the interest rate and deviations from the "natural" rate of interest, resulting in a misallocation of capital resulting in business "cycles". Central banks are used to borrow money on behalf of the populace or future generations without their consent, because the debt of a State must eventually be paid off by its citizens; this method of finance also hides the true cost of government spending, for with taxation the participants know how much is being used, but with inflation these costs are spread unevenly throughtout the economy and cause the phenomenon of inflation.
RJII, the version preferred by User:JoshG, User:JMaxwell and myself is a little more encyclopedic than the version you keep reverting to, in my view. If you and Ultramarine feel there's material missing from it, would it not make more sense to add a second paragraph containing that material, rather than to revert continually? I don't know why you feel there's no evidence to support the edit that capitalism arose out of feudalism and mercantilism: it's in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you want a reference, so it shouldn't be deleted. You might also want to be careful that you don't violate 3RR, as this isn't worth getting blocked for. SlimVirgin 15:00, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine, I was under the impression you supported RJII's latest version. Here's the one I support: it's not what I'd write left to my own devices, but I'm happy with it as a compromise. If you agree, there's no reason to allow this other version to constantly be reverted to. RJII, I wasn't being patronizing and I'm sorry it sounded that way. I do actually have a genuine concern not to see you blocked. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I came across this quote from Jimbo Wales the other day, and it seems particularly apt regarding an article on capitalism. SlimVirgin 16:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I frequently counsel people who are getting frustrated about an edit war to think about someone who lives without clean drinking water, without any proper means of education, and how our work might someday help that person. It puts flamewars into some perspective, I think. — Jimbo Wales [24]
That would be an unusual interpretation of the quote. Not everyone finds it fun. Some find it quite upsetting, and it's almost never good for articles; and we're here to write articles. SlimVirgin 16:46, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Perhaps. But don't forget that's a process that invariably has casualties. There are less hazardous ways. SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a dictionary def that you would probably argue includes unnecessary detail:
Mode of socio-economic organization in which a class of entrepeneurs and entrepeneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, ed. Simon Blackburn, 1996 SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
LOL! I'm starting to think we need a definition of dictionary, and a definition of definition. Someone find us a meta-dictionary please. ;-) I only offered the above as an illustration of how dictionary definitions vary. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Silverback is doing some real research. Ultramarine, you should read Friedman, I'll read Adam Smith, and as a punishment, RJII can be assigned Das Kapital. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Some people want the intro to say that capitalism is typically defined as a system where the "predominate" or "most" of the means of production are privately owned. But, that's not a typical definition of capitalism. There is no such qualifier in the typical definitions of capitalism. So, that's "original research" --a violation of Wikipedia policy. I wouldn't ordinarly be such a stickler but that seems to be the attitude around here, and that claim has been used against me. RJII 16:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please provide a source or sources showing that the EB is an atypical definition. Also, a mention of what capitalism replaced and arose out of IS part of the description. At some point, this discussion of what a definition is has to stop. Wikipedia intros are supposed to follow the upside pyramid to some extent and offer a brief overview of the subject, not restrict themselves to dictionary definitions. I've restored the consensus introduction, and am pasting it below. If you want to make changes, please make them on this talk page, and then discuss them, instead of continually reverting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. There is some debate regarding the exact definition [27] of capitalism, but most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
"most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ... " SlimVirgin 17:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Please read what it says. "Most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ..." That doesn't mean that most include all of the following. I didn't substitute typical with most. What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that e.g. the UK under Margaret Thatcher (the most capitalist of British prime ministers) did not have a capitalist economy because the state retained ownership of a few industries? SlimVirgin 17:16, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. Please be explicit, and please note that I have no POV when it comes to finding a description of capitalism. Regarding your recent edit of the words "correct definition," there is no such thing as a "correct" definition in a situation like this. Precise, agreed, or exact definition would all work better. Also, for the record, I note that you're using misleading edit summaries, e.g. calling the last edit "remove quote marks," when in fact you made a partial revert. [28]. I'm happy to debate this issue with you, but I will not get into a fight about it, or have meta-discussions about what the word "definition" means. SlimVirgin 17:26, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute this unqualified assertion. Noteable theorists do not agree. For example, Rand says that capitalism has yet to exist, hence the title of her book "The Unknown Ideal." Noam Chomsky says that capitalism does not exist. As far as the replacing feudalism statement, Oppenhemier says that capitalism is a blending of feudalism and markets. RJII 17:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the authorities (like Smith, Marx, Greenspan, DeSoto, Rand) consider capitalism to have evolved from feodalism and rely on state protection. In fact, probably everyone except anarcho-capitalists. Their minority view should not dominate the article. Ultramarine 17:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of this could be resolved if the definition is limited to the content of the "typical" definition. It's the only way I know of to minimize POV. RJII 17:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you write it here for discussion, but please note that Chomsky is not an authoritative source. Also, it would help to expand a little, in a scholarly way, rather than just saying "according to some, e.g. Rand, capitalism has never existed." SlimVirgin 17:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Changing the statement to this should suit Rand and Oppenheimer: "Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, evolving out of feodalism and mercantilism, although some argue that there has never been a completely pure form" Ultramarine 18:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note, I have added some quotations from Encarta Referenece Libarary to definitions of capitalism since RJII asked for more sources. Ultramarine 18:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about this: "Capitalism is an economic system that evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism" Ultramarine 18:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Tried out new formulation. Maybe it's more consensual. Luis rib 18:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removed industrial revolution, it emerged from capitalism, not from feodalism, according to every source I have read. Suggest this:
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [29] of capitalism, but most definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, except point 7), which is not really a definiton. I would finish the sentence after point 6). Then continue with: It evolved out of.... Luis rib 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion (changed to mainstream definitions) And definitions can included history, see for example MW definition of "bronze age":
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [30] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I personnally prefer the initial version (i.e. the one RJ does not like), where feudalism is mentioned in the first or last sentence, but is not part of the enumeration of definitions. But I won't revert it; it's a minor, rather stylistic point, and definitely not worth an edit war. Luis rib 19:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.3 Wikify, grammar, mostly privately owned, means of production like capital. Not all of mainstream definitions include feudalism so it should be mentioned in the list. Otherwise there is an impression that all definitions include this.
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [31] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) The means of production like capital are mostly privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private- property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.4 Removed means of productions as Capital should be enough, removed duplicate mentioning of profit
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [32] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) Capital is mostly privately owned; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a B.S. statement meant to slide POV in. Why list characteristics that are not in most definitions. One could list an infinite number of characteristics that are not included in most definitions. "Some of" needs to be deleted. RJII 19:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is not typical of mainsteam definitions, and for good reason. If only 51% of the means of production are privately owned is it still capitalism? Of course not. That's indisputably a "mixed economy." The list of characteristics should be what is typically found in mainstream definitions. Yes, the Encyclopedia Britannica says "most", but, as I've said many times, encyclopedias are not dictionaries; dictionaries are the commonly-consulted source for definitions. RJII 20:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Rv. Show policy that Enyclopedia Brittancia cannot be used as a source" <--what is this? No one is claiming that EB cannot be used as a source. I am claiming that the definition there is not typical of mainstream definitions beause it says "most." Why not represent what's typical of mainstream definitions instead of insisting on just one atypical one? Is it because this one suits your POV? RJII 20:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, how ludicrous is it for you to criticize someone for edit warring when you're centrally involved in the edit war? Get a grip. RJII 20:44, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Predominant" is a better word here than "mostly." The "predominant" means of production is that which gives its tone to the rest, which "dominates" the system. Govt-owned systems such as the TVA exist in the US, but they take their tone from the predominantly private system. It isn't a matter of percentages. -- Christofurio 03:42, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Taxman (note: I asked Taxman's opinion because he has degrees in economics and the mathematics of finance)
Taxman, I wonder whether you have any time to look in on Talk:Capitalism. There's a dispute (and revert war) regarding the introduction and what it should say. One editor feels that the current introduction states or implies that capitalism has been "implemented," and that this is POV. I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the argument, and can only ask for authoritative sources for the claim that capitalism has not been "implemented" (by which I take it he means it has never existed in a pure form). Do you know whether this is a tiny-minority view of the kind that should not be referred to in the introduction? Or if it is a mainstream view, can you refer us to an authoritative, academic source? If you don't have time, however, that's fine, I understand. Best, SlimVirgin 19:28, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
A relatively pure/idealistic definition of capitalism such as the anarcho's might choose, should be allowed to dominate if not monopolize the introduction, just as the ideal does at Communism and Anarchy. It is a basic lack of courtesy that has allowed this controversy to continue. Pet peeves and historical interpretations should not have to be in the intro. -- Silverback 13:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strange that they locked the page. I thought a general consensus was starting to materialize --that we were going to provide the most common mainstream definition, rather than POV push. RJII 14:26, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You have written this on anarcho-capitalism on Feb 19 and has since then tried to change the introduction of the Capitalism article to this anarcho-capitalist definition:
"1. It is important in understanding anarcho-capitalism that the definition of "capitalism" to which is referred by the school of thought is one that refers to a free market. For example, Merriam-Webster defines capitalism as: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." This differs from some other definitions that make no mention of a "free market" but instead refer to the private ownership of the means of production." [34] Ultramarine 14:49, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how "exploitation of labourers" could be part of any serious definition of capitalism. As far as I know, only Communists employ such a definition. This should be made clear. As it is now, it just looks like "exploitation" is a neutrally accepted view adopted by most people - which it is most definetely not! The question of exploitation could be explained and treated in the criticism section, but should not be included in the definition. Luis rib 19:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
David Harvey defined capitalism in terms of three features: it is growth-oriented ("a steady state of growth is essential for the health of a capitalist economic system"); "growth in real values rests on the exploitation of living labor in production;" and it is "necessarily technologically and organizationally dynamic."
Eric Wolf defines capitalism in terms of "three intertwined characteristics:" First, capitalists detain control of the means of production. Second, laborers are denied independent access to means of production and must sell their labor power to the capitalists. Third, the maximalization of surplus produced by the laborers with the means of production owned by the capitalists entails "ceaseless accumulation accompanied by changes in the methods of production" (Sweezy 1942: 94; Mandel 1978, 103-107).
Dictionary of Critical Sociology: "A system which separates workers from any property rights in the means by which they produce culture by their labor. The system transforms the social means of subsistence into capital on the one hand and the immediate producers into wage laborers on the other hand. Most of the time, capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of production but that definition does not encompass the great harm done to humanity by the system. By claiming all (or most) of the means to produce culture as private property, a small class of owners preempts material culture to their own comfort while denying the vast majority the means to subsistence as well as the means to produce ideological culture when they are not working." Ultramarine 19:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
First, this discussion -- in which people point out that each others' definitions are POV -- was precisely the reason why a year ago or so people agreed tothe three bullet-point definition, as an inclusive basis for a more complex discussion. Second, Luis rib's point that Harvey is a geography professor and not an economics professor is irrelevant. Economists do not have a monopoly on analyses of capitalism, nor do they have any particular authority. Yes, views of economists shouold be represented, but scholars from many disciplines have provided detailed analyses of capitalism (including Harvey). Finally, RJII's claim that the definitions by Wolf and Harvey is "hearsay" is a ridiculous objection. These are paraphrases of Wolf and Harvey which is completely legitimate in Wikipedia. RJII is grasping at straws because he has done no research while others have done serious research. The sources for these definitions are Wolf, Europe and the People Without History page 78; Harvey comes from The Condition of Postmodernity page 180.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 17:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is contradictory in there? RJII 21:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine: You put the above back in after I deleted it, saying "Is it NPOV to only represent the pro-capitalist definitions?" I don't understand what you mean. How is not putting that in there pro-capitalist?? Anyway you asked for a citation that there is not consensus that the modern economies are capitalism. Here's one: "What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy" -Ayn Rand (from Playboy interview). She is a very published, influence, and noteable author ..unlike the geography professor you quoted above. Need another? "There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence" -Noam Chomsky RJII 21:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
" Communist parties still rule several nations and get many votes in many other nations. Their views are widespread." <-what are you talking about? RJII 22:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Communist parties still rule Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and China. Communist regularly get around 10% of the votes in many countries. This is certainly a more widespred view than those of Rand, anarcho-capitalits or minarchists. The Libertarian party only got under 0.5% of the votes in the US and much less for similar parties in other nations.
The private ownership of capital definition is not a Marxist definition. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong. Marx characterizes capitalism as a structure, and explains what structural features define capitalism. Just because you are ignorant of Marx does not mean that Marx didn't have a definition -- it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII is covering up for his own ignorance. Ultramarine is completely correct -- OED does not provide "Marx's definition." If you do not know what Marx's definition is, RJII, then just do not go around claiming you know what it is. But if you insist on claiming you know what it is, you must provide a source from Marx himself!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Marx does explain what capitalism is, and he does not say it is "private ownership of capital." Just because you do not know what Marx's definition of capitalism is does not mean that he does not have one, it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What difference does it make? What is important is that contributors to this article be committed to our NPOV and NOR policies. Marx explains what the capitalist mode of production is -- and it is not "private ownership of capital." If you are going to present a "Marxist definition of capitalism" you must do research and provide sources. Appropriate sources for a Marxist definition of capitalism is not a dictionary, but a book by Marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You did make such a post to the article. In this edit summary [35] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." And as I have explained, you are wrong. And although I have asked you to provide the actual source for this definition (you write "Marx" but neglected to say what book or chapter or page), you still haven't backed up your own claim. From this I infer that you have not done serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro question seems to have been resolved, could we discuss the distribution of wealth paragraph, which makes lots of assertions that seem wrong to me? In particular: where is the source for this sentence: Typically between 0.5% and 1% of people own more than half of productive capacity, if not half of all wealth? Where are the various studies? Luis rib 12:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a new intro that is hopefuly less disputatious and more rational (an explanation follows):
Capitalism is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. 4) A competitive environment exists that is favorable for owners of capital. (see definitions of capitalism for various published definitions)
Some maintain that capitalism was institutionalized between time frames approximately corresponding to the period between the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. Probably most assert that it exists in some economies today. Some assert that capitalism has never existed. Others hold that it has existed in the past but no longer exists. Noteable economists and political philosophers differ broadly in this regard.
Explanation... I used the term "typically regarded" so that stray definitions by malcontent college professors don't count. I think I've obviated any need for government to be mentioned (typical definitions out there do not mention government anyway), by pointing out "private" ownership and "private" decisions --private means government is not involved --so that takes care of laissez-faire. "Free market" is there as that is very typical in definitions. And, 4 is something that I think both Marxists and pro-capitalist individuals can agree on ...life is better if you have capital. Not only this, but it also accords with a definition of capitalism in the Oxford English as well as according to other definitions that mention competition. Finally, I took the assertion that capitalism has been established out of the definition, as that goes beyond defining capitalism, and put it in a separate pararaph noting the lack of consensus. I also added a note about Ultramarine's definitions of capitalism article. Finally, I put the conditions in sentence form as a way to help force or guide people to make coherent statements. Any objections or recommendations? RJII 14:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you think I am a vandal have the guts to say so on the "vandalism in progress page" and request mediation, arbitration, or some other action against me -- and try to prove it. Put your money where yor mouth is. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with SlimVirgin, the second paragraph is bizarre and not helpful in the intro. Will take it out, but, RJII, im not vandal. Mgw 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mgw 19:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
God has nothing to do with it. I have a problem with how this intro speaks of most definitions, then proceeds to legalistically illustrate one favourable to capitalism out of it (which I realize is the aim and POV of most involved here, so no suprises on that front). Well, it isn't the number of definitions, qunatitatively, but the impact each had, that the definition (the definition that claims it is a summary of definitions) should encompass — not one pro-capitalist definition based on this most factor.
1. Capitalism is not simply a system, as I already stated here, strongly, it is an economic system with particular economic charachteristics. As the New Webster Dictionary for the English Languages (print) pointedly states in its one sentence definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit."
2. The role of capitalists remains omitted (!). The role of wealth being highly centralized and concentrated (250 billionaires own as much wealth as 2.5 billion poorest people - a factor of a million to one), within a tiny segment of the population. This isn't merely a demographic footnote, it's absolutely pivotal as to how capitalism operates, socially and economically.
3. That modern Political economy is fundamentally based around approches to capitalism, as I stated a few weeks ago: the Left seeks to reverse it revolutionarily, the Moderate Left seeks to reverse it evolutionarily, the Moderate Right seeks to retain it in a reformed form, the Right seeks to retain it. That the article is somehow incapable of outlining this broadly and instead using the specific theories as pretext to 'give up' and opt for the most summary (which sneaks one of these through the backdoor), is not an approach I find credible.
I suggested a few weeks ago (no comments in response were provided) that the intro should aim towards something between the Economist and Monthly Review, instead (predictably), it appears to go with the former. I'm not sure why I expected more (I didn't, really, it was largely rhetorical): A definition of capitalism, written under capitalism, by a website owned by a capitalist (whose own ideological affiliation, Rand, is grossly overrepresented here, as in elsewhere in other articles, as per her own historical/political/economic/etc., impact; 'ideas of the ruling class remain, as always, the ruling ideas,' with NPOV being a mere buzz word for ours is neutral). This is all to be expected, as are the objections I posed and continue to pose, as is the fact that they are going to make no difference whatsoever, with the exception of, perhaps, making a few people think a bit more critically – that, too, is an accomplishment of sorts. Sorry, SlR, I think you are a fine anthroplogist, but this opening paragraph is one that I find highly lacking. At least it isn't original reserach, though, it's just very, very selective. Until a few decades ago –one third of the planet– was officially committed to reversing capitalism, but apperently this isn't even worth being mentioned as a minor footnote in this intro. Intellectually, historically, a grotesquely political omission.
On the other hand, we have RJII who makes an original research, abstract contradistinction which I don't find has basis in fact. S/he writes: The other, somewhat prevalant, set of definitions do not refer to the nature of economic decisions or methods of pricing and distribution but, instead, define capitalism as the private ownership of capital. I'm sorry, RJII, I have never heard of that distinction made by anyone (and I just noticed your comment now on my talk page, sorry I overlooked it the day you sent to me). Ownership explicitly intimates decisionmaking (and I don't mean just in the abstract, but historically it has and continues to) on some and/or all of these fronts; I don't know anyone that sees this (superimposed, I argue) distinction as even remotely mutually exclusive as you phrase it. On the contrary, the two fit quite well together, and have been written on extensively as an interconnected whole; so, it is my understanding that this do not refer bit is made-up stuff. I see no evidence that any of the major theories from the Left, M Left, M Right, and Right, treat it in this way.
Argh, I don't blame you SlR, but had it not been for your request, this would have remained one of several articles in the enecyclopedia that I would never, ever read, because I know, for it, NPOV is mere lip-service and it would just upset me, pointlessly, which it has. But I do hope my points above resonate, somewhat (you've heard it all, I know, but it's the context which matters). And RJII, no offence, but you need to do more research on the subject, you're treating complex theories far to simplistically and reducationistically, and originally. Yet, depite this (and I argue, because of this) unfamiliarity with the material, you are able to highlight some truths which those with greater expertise (ironically, to the left of you) are dogmatically b(l)inded (chained, even) to overlook and ommit. But such glimpses are, of course, not nearly enough. El_C 23:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no interest in engaging with polemics with you, especially on such a superficial and antagonistic level. I am disheartened that you opt merely for combativeness rather than addressing the specific items I raised. If you wish to discredit my argument (which I did expend some effort into formulating, though that seems of little consequence to you) in such a dismissive, abrasive manner, well, naturally I find that a dispiriting (but far from an unexpected) response, that remains your prerogative. El_C 11:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1)I agree that capitalism is just an economic system, and that it should be pointed out.
2)I disagree with this point. Inegality exists, and there's no doubt about that, but the numbers you cite are misleading. The billionaires you cite reside mostly in the US, which has a rather extreme version of capitalism (though admittedly sopme claim that it is the purest capitalism in existence). In Europe, inegalities are much lower, especially in the Scandinavian countries. Also, the 2.5 billion poor you cite live mostly in countries which are not capitalist, or which have only become capitalist in recent years. India, for instance, had a planned economy until the early nineties, which might (and in my opinion does) explain the wide-spread poverty that still exists there. China too only embraced capitalism in the last 20 years, and the regions that remain untouched by it (the interior provinces) are, of course, very poor. Africa has certainly the highest levels of poverty, but again almost no African country is truly capitalist. Botswana, Mauritius and South Africa are exceptions, and are also the African countries that managed to develop most. Most other countries have maintained dirigist state-controlled economies, on the Indian model. The lack of infrastructure is also a huge problem in Africa, and one that global capitalism has indeed failed to address. Latin America, finally, has the highest levels of inegality, but again in Latin America interventionist politics have prevented real free markets from emerging. Wealth is concentrated among very few people which have strong links to politicians, which prevents the competition that is necessary in true capitalism (NB: the US also partly have this problem, if you think about the shocking monopoly that Bill Gates' Microsoft is allowed to enjoy).
3)You are right that the article is messy and mixes all the ideas instead of clearly stating which political wings adopt them. Maybe a new paragraph/section should be added, which could explain these different approaches.
4) I don't know the Monthly Review. Is it an American news magazine (I live in Europe, btw). The Economist is certainly right-wing, but usually relatively neutral (at least they give arguments for their positions). In some previous version, I had suggested to add a different paragraph in the intro that would explain the marxist or left-wing definition of capitalism. Somehow, this disappeared in the following edit war. After all, why should the intro only have a single paragraph? It should, i think, have two or three, where the different positions relative to capitalism are explained. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for the minarchist (what the hell is that anyway?) or anarcho-capitalist versions. I agree with your proposal of 4 views: the marxist, the moderate left, the moderate right, and the libertarians. Concerning your comment on Communism, I maintain my rather aggressive view of it, which I wrote in my previous comment. Fascism also once controlled a big chunk of the world, yet that does not mean that the views of Fascism should be granted the same importance as other, more pacifist, views.
5) I don't think that this article is highly imbalanced, at least if you consider it as a whole. Some sections are clearly POV from a marxist point of view (worst of all, in my opinion, the Distribution of wealth section). Other sections are POV from a right-wing position. Yet if you compare this article to the article on Communism, it is a totally neutral article. Any contribution to the Communism article that tries to criticise it will immediately launch an edit war that will end with numerous counter-criticisms to the initial critique. Any single critique one makes has to be weighed by sources. I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Well, now I took some time too to answer your comment. I would gladly read your reply. Luis rib 12:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
With that preamble out of the way, I'm writing in haste so, regretfully, I will not be able to respond to your substantive comments above as I have to get going in ~5 minutes; even with what I intend to say now, I have to be brief. A word of caution first: in light of the wide-ranged scope of your comments, my response may end up being rather lengthy – perhaps we should continue the discussion on a subpage and link it here as (hopefuly) a must-read (?). Anyway, before I go, If I could quickly respond to/reference your very last sentence/query, which reads:
I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Of course to those billions, disposal income is their wealth, thus, the figures are rather similar when it is measured as such. Note that the following UN study is from 1996, the above from 1998. Since class inequality has risen so much in the last ~decade, I believe my 255 viz. 2.5Bn example is valid, but I wasn't able to trace the source for it on-the-fly, nonetheless, it is still a few hunderd individuals versus 2.x billions, so in a general sense, it makes little difference either way.
So, indeed, not a handful — as I claimed in my first comment, a few hundred. El_C 14:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Negative. I quoted you directly from my Talk page, I never said you lied, I did not mention your view in extension to Marxism, nor have I commented on your version for that matter (only SlR and UM's), except touching on your original research premise that ownership-decisionmaking are defintionally distinct — which is your original research (lifting part of it from the Oxford dictionary to create it and all the bravado in your above comment notwithstanding). You have no reference that speaks of this distintiction outright, as such, you made that stuff up yourself. At any rate, I don't believe you read my comment closely enough, nor do I think that you are sufficiently well-read or have the background to be writing about this issue. And, moreoever, you seem too emotionally immature and not accustomed to dispassionate intellectual debate. Oh, and incidentally, I take exception to your claim/insult that I have nothing better to do than write irrelevant crap, that is false: I do have better things to do! Yes, yes, I'm off to do them (wish me luck!). :) El_C 21:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Argh, no, I apologize for that. Yes, it was a bit unclear, but not that unclear. I misread you because I was writing in haste, I shouldn't have written anything. Hmm, I realize this dosen't reflect well on me. At any rate, got home after a long drive and now I need sleep. Since I'm not fully coherent, maybe I shouldn't be writing this now either (alas, I'll regret it when I wake up – how convinient is that!). Again, sorry for the harsh, misdirected words, indeed, a product of a misunderstanding (on my part). I think I should probably end this comment now and revisit this when I'm more lucid. El_C 12:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not a liar -- it is telling that when confronted with facts you retreat into personal insults. You have posted this definition in the article, and here on the talk pages -- and talk pages are for discussions about how to improve the article, and explanations for chantes to the article -- you have claimed that this is a marxist definition. Yes, the quote was taken from the talk page -- but so what? It is the "talk page" of the "Capitalism" article!!. Moreover, in this edit summary [36] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII:"Marx does not define the word "capitalism" --just as Adam Smith doesn't. I don't have to do research for a damned thing that I haven't posted in the article. I never posted anything in the article that was labeled as a Marxist definition. You're out of line. RJII 19:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Slrubenstein:I am quoting you right here: "...the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production." So yes, you obviously have posted something that you yourself labeled a "Marxist definition." The problem is, your Marxist definition is wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) RHII:You're a liar. That was taken from the Talk page. That was never posted to the article. Again, I find over and over you to be a reprehensible disingenuous individual who is a complete waste of time to have a discussion with. So, this concludes my wasting my time talking to you. I forget that I had come to that conclusion before. RJII 19:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Respond if you want, but I'm not going to respond to you. As I said, you are a waste of time for me to converse with. Find someone else to get into petty disputes with. And adjust your behavior. It is not civil to lie about fellow editors. RJII 00:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is a system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries and replaced feudalism and mercantilism. There are many, sometimes contradictory, theories and definitions of capitalism that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and in the 20th century, in the context of the Cold War. Most definitions of capitalism include some combination of the following: the right of individuals, or groups of individuals to act as corporations with distinct legal personality, to own and trade private property including capital goods and land in a competitive environment in the form of a free or relatively free market, where price and wages are determined by supply and demand, and where there is investment for profit, with risks being assumed by the investors and investment decisions being made privately; the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; explicit and implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
I put "labor" back in the first paragraph. There is no doubt that in capitalist economies labor is a commodity -- economists talk about labor markets all the time, and all big business have offices of "human resources." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct -- I should have said "labor power." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please note, too, that the first paragraph is not a definition of capitalism but a list of elements that are found in various definitions of capitalism. Some definitions do not include a concept of "labor-power" but some do. the same can be said for other elements. NPOV requires as inclusive a list as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV does not require wrong facts to be included. Labour power cannot be owned, therefore it is not a good. It's as easy as that. Also, the sentence talks about capital goods, which are in exact opposition to labour power. The previous intro already states that wages are determined by supply and demand. I think that's clear enough. Luis rib 21:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rand was a seminal figure in putting forward capitalism as an ideology that was defensible on moral grounds rather than just practical grounds. She was influential beyond just those roids that called themselves objectivists, and her works were the second only to the bible in sale for many years. In a sense she helped to bring capitalism "out of the closet", and should be given her due. I was a bit surprised to find only an external link reference. There was one reference to Milton Friedman that I spotted that was also a natural place to include her and perhaps her one time associate, Greenspan.-- Silverback 12:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There can be only two solutions:
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As the revert war continues, would this do as a compromise?
Capitalism, also known as the free market, is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. It is typically regarded as comprising the following: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties. SlimVirgin 15:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Which part(s) of my compromise constitute original research, would you say? SlimVirgin 15:19, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism' is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market.
Silverback, your intro is very definitely OR. I'd revert, but now have no idea which version to revert to. RJII, what is wrong, in your view, with the capitalism arose sentence? It's quite factual. There's no need to say privately or corporately owned, because we later say what a corporation is. Also your version makes no mention of the state's protection of property rights which is crucial. And you don't say what a corporation is. And capitalism isn't a social system; it's an economic system. I'm not sure what "economic and social system" means in this context. And the means of production are mostly privately owned. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone on this page have a degree in economics or a closely related subject? Because, if so, I think we should be guided by that person. SlimVirgin 15:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've left a note for an editor who has a degree in economics, but he may not have time to help out. Ultramarine, what would your introduction be, if you could write whatever you wanted (bearing in mind NPOV and NOR)? SlimVirgin 16:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an example that lists the elements of all defintions:
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
the right of individuals to own, and trade private property including capital goods; the right of groups of individuals to act as a corporation with distinct legal personality and responsibility; the strong protection of these rights; the existence of an strong enforcement of contractual agreements and peaceful settlements of disagrements by a third party; a free or relatively free market where price is determined by supply and demand; private investment for profit with the risk of loss of the investment; competition for this profit; following feudalism; today dominant in the Western world; today not present in a pure form but only partially in the current "mixed economy"; never achieved in its pure form; in anarcho-capitalist theory, peaceful, voluntary exchange which is fully realized only without a state; in marxist theory, exploitation of workers by the owners of capital; in minarchist theory, the role of government is limited mostly to protecting economic liberty and private property." Ultramarine 16:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That looks good. It's quite similar to this version [37], which I think is Slrubenstein's. SlimVirgin 16:39, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
The marxist definition is not a good faith definition, it is a strawman, intended to be dismissive or a criticism. The way you can tell, is to check the marxist definition of communism. Is it the "exploitation of workers by fellow workers" or the "exploitation of workers by the state". Obviously, exploitation is intended to be pejorative rather than informative.-- Silverback 16:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Das Kapital is one of the most important or definitive descriptions of capitalism. It's appropriate to mention Marx in the introduction. SlimVirgin 16:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to return to the bullet point version. Ultramarine's version is inferior to the two versions we were discussing, so we should forget about it. Also, as I mentioned in my comment to El C, we could have two intro paragraphs, one being the definition part (i.e. one of the two we were considering, or modifications of those), followed by a paragraph explaining the diverging definitions by marxists and libertarians. Luis rib 16:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Influential non-academics like Rand and Marx are also important. Neither did much publishing in peer reviewed journals. Important politicians are also good sources. -- Silverback 18:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Academic and non-academic research and philosophy from noteable authors commonly contain disparate opinions on how capitalism should best be defined or characterized. However, "capitalism," as defined in the most widely-disseminated and consulted dictionaries, is typically described as an economic system being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. RJII 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about something like the beginning of this article (but written in a more NPOV version): http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch9.asp Luis rib 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This quote is from Dr. John Hospers, who was head of the Dept. of Philosophy at USC at the time.-- Silverback 18:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another term associated with laissez faire is capitalism. This again is a term of indefinite meaning depending upon who uses it. It is employed by the enemies of the American system for purposes of slur. -- Herbert Hoover
Capitalism is a system of exchangable private-property rights in goods and services, with the central government, protecting and enforcing these rights. Private-property rights, in turn, can be defined as the rights of owners to choose the use of their goods and resources (including labor and time) as they see fit. -- "Exchange and Production" by Alchian & Allen.
-- Silverback 19:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless, in most modern capitalist economies the State attempts to maintain a certain degree of economic planning (using such tools as allowing the country's central bank to set base interest rates) in order to discourage economic instability and provide greater longer-term direction (disputed — see talk page).
Some economists would argue that instability is the effect of government manipulation of the money supply which causes intertemporal distortions in the interest rate and deviations from the "natural" rate of interest, resulting in a misallocation of capital resulting in business "cycles". Central banks are used to borrow money on behalf of the populace or future generations without their consent, because the debt of a State must eventually be paid off by its citizens; this method of finance also hides the true cost of government spending, for with taxation the participants know how much is being used, but with inflation these costs are spread unevenly throughtout the economy and cause the phenomenon of inflation.
RJII, the version preferred by User:JoshG, User:JMaxwell and myself is a little more encyclopedic than the version you keep reverting to, in my view. If you and Ultramarine feel there's material missing from it, would it not make more sense to add a second paragraph containing that material, rather than to revert continually? I don't know why you feel there's no evidence to support the edit that capitalism arose out of feudalism and mercantilism: it's in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you want a reference, so it shouldn't be deleted. You might also want to be careful that you don't violate 3RR, as this isn't worth getting blocked for. SlimVirgin 15:00, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine, I was under the impression you supported RJII's latest version. Here's the one I support: it's not what I'd write left to my own devices, but I'm happy with it as a compromise. If you agree, there's no reason to allow this other version to constantly be reverted to. RJII, I wasn't being patronizing and I'm sorry it sounded that way. I do actually have a genuine concern not to see you blocked. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I came across this quote from Jimbo Wales the other day, and it seems particularly apt regarding an article on capitalism. SlimVirgin 16:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I frequently counsel people who are getting frustrated about an edit war to think about someone who lives without clean drinking water, without any proper means of education, and how our work might someday help that person. It puts flamewars into some perspective, I think. — Jimbo Wales [41]
That would be an unusual interpretation of the quote. Not everyone finds it fun. Some find it quite upsetting, and it's almost never good for articles; and we're here to write articles. SlimVirgin 16:46, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Perhaps. But don't forget that's a process that invariably has casualties. There are less hazardous ways. SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a dictionary def that you would probably argue includes unnecessary detail:
Mode of socio-economic organization in which a class of entrepeneurs and entrepeneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, ed. Simon Blackburn, 1996 SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
LOL! I'm starting to think we need a definition of dictionary, and a definition of definition. Someone find us a meta-dictionary please. ;-) I only offered the above as an illustration of how dictionary definitions vary. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Silverback is doing some real research. Ultramarine, you should read Friedman, I'll read Adam Smith, and as a punishment, RJII can be assigned Das Kapital. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Some people want the intro to say that capitalism is typically defined as a system where the "predominate" or "most" of the means of production are privately owned. But, that's not a typical definition of capitalism. There is no such qualifier in the typical definitions of capitalism. So, that's "original research" --a violation of Wikipedia policy. I wouldn't ordinarly be such a stickler but that seems to be the attitude around here, and that claim has been used against me. RJII 16:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please provide a source or sources showing that the EB is an atypical definition. Also, a mention of what capitalism replaced and arose out of IS part of the description. At some point, this discussion of what a definition is has to stop. Wikipedia intros are supposed to follow the upside pyramid to some extent and offer a brief overview of the subject, not restrict themselves to dictionary definitions. I've restored the consensus introduction, and am pasting it below. If you want to make changes, please make them on this talk page, and then discuss them, instead of continually reverting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. There is some debate regarding the exact definition [44] of capitalism, but most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
"most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ... " SlimVirgin 17:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Please read what it says. "Most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ..." That doesn't mean that most include all of the following. I didn't substitute typical with most. What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that e.g. the UK under Margaret Thatcher (the most capitalist of British prime ministers) did not have a capitalist economy because the state retained ownership of a few industries? SlimVirgin 17:16, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. Please be explicit, and please note that I have no POV when it comes to finding a description of capitalism. Regarding your recent edit of the words "correct definition," there is no such thing as a "correct" definition in a situation like this. Precise, agreed, or exact definition would all work better. Also, for the record, I note that you're using misleading edit summaries, e.g. calling the last edit "remove quote marks," when in fact you made a partial revert. [45]. I'm happy to debate this issue with you, but I will not get into a fight about it, or have meta-discussions about what the word "definition" means. SlimVirgin 17:26, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute this unqualified assertion. Noteable theorists do not agree. For example, Rand says that capitalism has yet to exist, hence the title of her book "The Unknown Ideal." Noam Chomsky says that capitalism does not exist. As far as the replacing feudalism statement, Oppenhemier says that capitalism is a blending of feudalism and markets. RJII 17:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the authorities (like Smith, Marx, Greenspan, DeSoto, Rand) consider capitalism to have evolved from feodalism and rely on state protection. In fact, probably everyone except anarcho-capitalists. Their minority view should not dominate the article. Ultramarine 17:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of this could be resolved if the definition is limited to the content of the "typical" definition. It's the only way I know of to minimize POV. RJII 17:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you write it here for discussion, but please note that Chomsky is not an authoritative source. Also, it would help to expand a little, in a scholarly way, rather than just saying "according to some, e.g. Rand, capitalism has never existed." SlimVirgin 17:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Changing the statement to this should suit Rand and Oppenheimer: "Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, evolving out of feodalism and mercantilism, although some argue that there has never been a completely pure form" Ultramarine 18:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note, I have added some quotations from Encarta Referenece Libarary to definitions of capitalism since RJII asked for more sources. Ultramarine 18:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about this: "Capitalism is an economic system that evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism" Ultramarine 18:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Tried out new formulation. Maybe it's more consensual. Luis rib 18:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removed industrial revolution, it emerged from capitalism, not from feodalism, according to every source I have read. Suggest this:
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [46] of capitalism, but most definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, except point 7), which is not really a definiton. I would finish the sentence after point 6). Then continue with: It evolved out of.... Luis rib 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion (changed to mainstream definitions) And definitions can included history, see for example MW definition of "bronze age":
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [47] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I personnally prefer the initial version (i.e. the one RJ does not like), where feudalism is mentioned in the first or last sentence, but is not part of the enumeration of definitions. But I won't revert it; it's a minor, rather stylistic point, and definitely not worth an edit war. Luis rib 19:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.3 Wikify, grammar, mostly privately owned, means of production like capital. Not all of mainstream definitions include feudalism so it should be mentioned in the list. Otherwise there is an impression that all definitions include this.
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [48] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) The means of production like capital are mostly privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private- property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.4 Removed means of productions as Capital should be enough, removed duplicate mentioning of profit
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [49] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) Capital is mostly privately owned; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a B.S. statement meant to slide POV in. Why list characteristics that are not in most definitions. One could list an infinite number of characteristics that are not included in most definitions. "Some of" needs to be deleted. RJII 19:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I fail to see how "exploitation of labourers" could be part of any serious definition of capitalism. As far as I know, only Communists employ such a definition. This should be made clear. As it is now, it just looks like "exploitation" is a neutrally accepted view adopted by most people - which it is most definetely not! The question of exploitation could be explained and treated in the criticism section, but should not be included in the definition. Luis rib 19:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
David Harvey defined capitalism in terms of three features: it is growth-oriented ("a steady state of growth is essential for the health of a capitalist economic system"); "growth in real values rests on the exploitation of living labor in production;" and it is "necessarily technologically and organizationally dynamic."
Eric Wolf defines capitalism in terms of "three intertwined characteristics:" First, capitalists detain control of the means of production. Second, laborers are denied independent access to means of production and must sell their labor power to the capitalists. Third, the maximalization of surplus produced by the laborers with the means of production owned by the capitalists entails "ceaseless accumulation accompanied by changes in the methods of production" (Sweezy 1942: 94; Mandel 1978, 103-107).
Dictionary of Critical Sociology: "A system which separates workers from any property rights in the means by which they produce culture by their labor. The system transforms the social means of subsistence into capital on the one hand and the immediate producers into wage laborers on the other hand. Most of the time, capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of production but that definition does not encompass the great harm done to humanity by the system. By claiming all (or most) of the means to produce culture as private property, a small class of owners preempts material culture to their own comfort while denying the vast majority the means to subsistence as well as the means to produce ideological culture when they are not working." Ultramarine 19:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
First, this discussion -- in which people point out that each others' definitions are POV -- was precisely the reason why a year ago or so people agreed tothe three bullet-point definition, as an inclusive basis for a more complex discussion. Second, Luis rib's point that Harvey is a geography professor and not an economics professor is irrelevant. Economists do not have a monopoly on analyses of capitalism, nor do they have any particular authority. Yes, views of economists shouold be represented, but scholars from many disciplines have provided detailed analyses of capitalism (including Harvey). Finally, RJII's claim that the definitions by Wolf and Harvey is "hearsay" is a ridiculous objection. These are paraphrases of Wolf and Harvey which is completely legitimate in Wikipedia. RJII is grasping at straws because he has done no research while others have done serious research. The sources for these definitions are Wolf, Europe and the People Without History page 78; Harvey comes from The Condition of Postmodernity page 180.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 17:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is contradictory in there? RJII 21:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine: You put the above back in after I deleted it, saying "Is it NPOV to only represent the pro-capitalist definitions?" I don't understand what you mean. How is not putting that in there pro-capitalist?? Anyway you asked for a citation that there is not consensus that the modern economies are capitalism. Here's one: "What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy" -Ayn Rand (from Playboy interview). She is a very published, influence, and noteable author ..unlike the geography professor you quoted above. Need another? "There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence" -Noam Chomsky RJII 21:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
" Communist parties still rule several nations and get many votes in many other nations. Their views are widespread." <-what are you talking about? RJII 22:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Communist parties still rule Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and China. Communist regularly get around 10% of the votes in many countries. This is certainly a more widespred view than those of Rand, anarcho-capitalits or minarchists. The Libertarian party only got under 0.5% of the votes in the US and much less for similar parties in other nations.
The private ownership of capital definition is not a Marxist definition. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong. Marx characterizes capitalism as a structure, and explains what structural features define capitalism. Just because you are ignorant of Marx does not mean that Marx didn't have a definition -- it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII is covering up for his own ignorance. Ultramarine is completely correct -- OED does not provide "Marx's definition." If you do not know what Marx's definition is, RJII, then just do not go around claiming you know what it is. But if you insist on claiming you know what it is, you must provide a source from Marx himself!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Marx does explain what capitalism is, and he does not say it is "private ownership of capital." Just because you do not know what Marx's definition of capitalism is does not mean that he does not have one, it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What difference does it make? What is important is that contributors to this article be committed to our NPOV and NOR policies. Marx explains what the capitalist mode of production is -- and it is not "private ownership of capital." If you are going to present a "Marxist definition of capitalism" you must do research and provide sources. Appropriate sources for a Marxist definition of capitalism is not a dictionary, but a book by Marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You did make such a post to the article. In this edit summary [1] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." And as I have explained, you are wrong. And although I have asked you to provide the actual source for this definition (you write "Marx" but neglected to say what book or chapter or page), you still haven't backed up your own claim. From this I infer that you have not done serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro question seems to have been resolved, could we discuss the distribution of wealth paragraph, which makes lots of assertions that seem wrong to me? In particular: where is the source for this sentence: Typically between 0.5% and 1% of people own more than half of productive capacity, if not half of all wealth? Where are the various studies? Luis rib 12:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a new intro that is hopefuly less disputatious and more rational (an explanation follows):
Capitalism is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. 4) A competitive environment exists that is favorable for owners of capital. (see definitions of capitalism for various published definitions)
Some maintain that capitalism was institutionalized between time frames approximately corresponding to the period between the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. Probably most assert that it exists in some economies today. Some assert that capitalism has never existed. Others hold that it has existed in the past but no longer exists. Noteable economists and political philosophers differ broadly in this regard.
Explanation... I used the term "typically regarded" so that stray definitions by malcontent college professors don't count. I think I've obviated any need for government to be mentioned (typical definitions out there do not mention government anyway), by pointing out "private" ownership and "private" decisions --private means government is not involved --so that takes care of laissez-faire. "Free market" is there as that is very typical in definitions. And, 4 is something that I think both Marxists and pro-capitalist individuals can agree on ...life is better if you have capital. Not only this, but it also accords with a definition of capitalism in the Oxford English as well as according to other definitions that mention competition. Finally, I took the assertion that capitalism has been established out of the definition, as that goes beyond defining capitalism, and put it in a separate pararaph noting the lack of consensus. I also added a note about Ultramarine's definitions of capitalism article. Finally, I put the conditions in sentence form as a way to help force or guide people to make coherent statements. Any objections or recommendations? RJII 14:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you think I am a vandal have the guts to say so on the "vandalism in progress page" and request mediation, arbitration, or some other action against me -- and try to prove it. Put your money where yor mouth is. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with SlimVirgin, the second paragraph is bizarre and not helpful in the intro. Will take it out, but, RJII, im not vandal. Mgw 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mgw 19:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
God has nothing to do with it. I have a problem with how this intro speaks of most definitions, then proceeds to legalistically illustrate one favourable to capitalism out of it (which I realize is the aim and POV of most involved here, so no suprises on that front). Well, it isn't the number of definitions, qunatitatively, but the impact each had, that the definition (the definition that claims it is a summary of definitions) should encompass — not one pro-capitalist definition based on this most factor.
1. Capitalism is not simply a system, as I already stated here, strongly, it is an economic system with particular economic charachteristics. As the New Webster Dictionary for the English Languages (print) pointedly states in its one sentence definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit."
2. The role of capitalists remains omitted (!). The role of wealth being highly centralized and concentrated (250 billionaires own as much wealth as 2.5 billion poorest people - a factor of a million to one), within a tiny segment of the population. This isn't merely a demographic footnote, it's absolutely pivotal as to how capitalism operates, socially and economically.
3. That modern Political economy is fundamentally based around approches to capitalism, as I stated a few weeks ago: the Left seeks to reverse it revolutionarily, the Moderate Left seeks to reverse it evolutionarily, the Moderate Right seeks to retain it in a reformed form, the Right seeks to retain it. That the article is somehow incapable of outlining this broadly and instead using the specific theories as pretext to 'give up' and opt for the most summary (which sneaks one of these through the backdoor), is not an approach I find credible.
I suggested a few weeks ago (no comments in response were provided) that the intro should aim towards something between the Economist and Monthly Review, instead (predictably), it appears to go with the former. I'm not sure why I expected more (I didn't, really, it was largely rhetorical): A definition of capitalism, written under capitalism, by a website owned by a capitalist (whose own ideological affiliation, Rand, is grossly overrepresented here, as in elsewhere in other articles, as per her own historical/political/economic/etc., impact; 'ideas of the ruling class remain, as always, the ruling ideas,' with NPOV being a mere buzz word for ours is neutral). This is all to be expected, as are the objections I posed and continue to pose, as is the fact that they are going to make no difference whatsoever, with the exception of, perhaps, making a few people think a bit more critically – that, too, is an accomplishment of sorts. Sorry, SlR, I think you are a fine anthroplogist, but this opening paragraph is one that I find highly lacking. At least it isn't original reserach, though, it's just very, very selective. Until a few decades ago –one third of the planet– was officially committed to reversing capitalism, but apperently this isn't even worth being mentioned as a minor footnote in this intro. Intellectually, historically, a grotesquely political omission.
On the other hand, we have RJII who makes an original research, abstract contradistinction which I don't find has basis in fact. S/he writes: The other, somewhat prevalant, set of definitions do not refer to the nature of economic decisions or methods of pricing and distribution but, instead, define capitalism as the private ownership of capital. I'm sorry, RJII, I have never heard of that distinction made by anyone (and I just noticed your comment now on my talk page, sorry I overlooked it the day you sent to me). Ownership explicitly intimates decisionmaking (and I don't mean just in the abstract, but historically it has and continues to) on some and/or all of these fronts; I don't know anyone that sees this (superimposed, I argue) distinction as even remotely mutually exclusive as you phrase it. On the contrary, the two fit quite well together, and have been written on extensively as an interconnected whole; so, it is my understanding that this do not refer bit is made-up stuff. I see no evidence that any of the major theories from the Left, M Left, M Right, and Right, treat it in this way.
Argh, I don't blame you SlR, but had it not been for your request, this would have remained one of several articles in the enecyclopedia that I would never, ever read, because I know, for it, NPOV is mere lip-service and it would just upset me, pointlessly, which it has. But I do hope my points above resonate, somewhat (you've heard it all, I know, but it's the context which matters). And RJII, no offence, but you need to do more research on the subject, you're treating complex theories far to simplistically and reducationistically, and originally. Yet, depite this (and I argue, because of this) unfamiliarity with the material, you are able to highlight some truths which those with greater expertise (ironically, to the left of you) are dogmatically b(l)inded (chained, even) to overlook and ommit. But such glimpses are, of course, not nearly enough. El_C 23:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no interest in engaging with polemics with you, especially on such a superficial and antagonistic level. I am disheartened that you opt merely for combativeness rather than addressing the specific items I raised. If you wish to discredit my argument (which I did expend some effort into formulating, though that seems of little consequence to you) in such a dismissive, abrasive manner, well, naturally I find that a dispiriting (but far from an unexpected) response, that remains your prerogative. El_C 11:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1)I agree that capitalism is just an economic system, and that it should be pointed out.
2)I disagree with this point. Inegality exists, and there's no doubt about that, but the numbers you cite are misleading. The billionaires you cite reside mostly in the US, which has a rather extreme version of capitalism (though admittedly sopme claim that it is the purest capitalism in existence). In Europe, inegalities are much lower, especially in the Scandinavian countries. Also, the 2.5 billion poor you cite live mostly in countries which are not capitalist, or which have only become capitalist in recent years. India, for instance, had a planned economy until the early nineties, which might (and in my opinion does) explain the wide-spread poverty that still exists there. China too only embraced capitalism in the last 20 years, and the regions that remain untouched by it (the interior provinces) are, of course, very poor. Africa has certainly the highest levels of poverty, but again almost no African country is truly capitalist. Botswana, Mauritius and South Africa are exceptions, and are also the African countries that managed to develop most. Most other countries have maintained dirigist state-controlled economies, on the Indian model. The lack of infrastructure is also a huge problem in Africa, and one that global capitalism has indeed failed to address. Latin America, finally, has the highest levels of inegality, but again in Latin America interventionist politics have prevented real free markets from emerging. Wealth is concentrated among very few people which have strong links to politicians, which prevents the competition that is necessary in true capitalism (NB: the US also partly have this problem, if you think about the shocking monopoly that Bill Gates' Microsoft is allowed to enjoy).
3)You are right that the article is messy and mixes all the ideas instead of clearly stating which political wings adopt them. Maybe a new paragraph/section should be added, which could explain these different approaches.
4) I don't know the Monthly Review. Is it an American news magazine (I live in Europe, btw). The Economist is certainly right-wing, but usually relatively neutral (at least they give arguments for their positions). In some previous version, I had suggested to add a different paragraph in the intro that would explain the marxist or left-wing definition of capitalism. Somehow, this disappeared in the following edit war. After all, why should the intro only have a single paragraph? It should, i think, have two or three, where the different positions relative to capitalism are explained. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for the minarchist (what the hell is that anyway?) or anarcho-capitalist versions. I agree with your proposal of 4 views: the marxist, the moderate left, the moderate right, and the libertarians. Concerning your comment on Communism, I maintain my rather aggressive view of it, which I wrote in my previous comment. Fascism also once controlled a big chunk of the world, yet that does not mean that the views of Fascism should be granted the same importance as other, more pacifist, views.
5) I don't think that this article is highly imbalanced, at least if you consider it as a whole. Some sections are clearly POV from a marxist point of view (worst of all, in my opinion, the Distribution of wealth section). Other sections are POV from a right-wing position. Yet if you compare this article to the article on Communism, it is a totally neutral article. Any contribution to the Communism article that tries to criticise it will immediately launch an edit war that will end with numerous counter-criticisms to the initial critique. Any single critique one makes has to be weighed by sources. I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Well, now I took some time too to answer your comment. I would gladly read your reply. Luis rib 12:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
With that preamble out of the way, I'm writing in haste so, regretfully, I will not be able to respond to your substantive comments above as I have to get going in ~5 minutes; even with what I intend to say now, I have to be brief. A word of caution first: in light of the wide-ranged scope of your comments, my response may end up being rather lengthy – perhaps we should continue the discussion on a subpage and link it here as (hopefuly) a must-read (?). Anyway, before I go, If I could quickly respond to/reference your very last sentence/query, which reads:
I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Of course to those billions, disposal income is their wealth, thus, the figures are rather similar when it is measured as such. Note that the following UN study is from 1996, the above from 1998. Since class inequality has risen so much in the last ~decade, I believe my 255 viz. 2.5Bn example is valid, but I wasn't able to trace the source for it on-the-fly, nonetheless, it is still a few hunderd individuals versus 2.x billions, so in a general sense, it makes little difference either way.
So, indeed, not a handful — as I claimed in my first comment, a few hundred. El_C 14:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Negative. I quoted you directly from my Talk page, I never said you lied, I did not mention your view in extension to Marxism, nor have I commented on your version for that matter (only SlR and UM's), except touching on your original research premise that ownership-decisionmaking are defintionally distinct — which is your original research (lifting part of it from the Oxford dictionary to create it and all the bravado in your above comment notwithstanding). You have no reference that speaks of this distintiction outright, as such, you made that stuff up yourself. At any rate, I don't believe you read my comment closely enough, nor do I think that you are sufficiently well-read or have the background to be writing about this issue. And, moreoever, you seem too emotionally immature and not accustomed to dispassionate intellectual debate. Oh, and incidentally, I take exception to your claim/insult that I have nothing better to do than write irrelevant crap, that is false: I do have better things to do! Yes, yes, I'm off to do them (wish me luck!). :) El_C 21:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Argh, no, I apologize for that. Yes, it was a bit unclear, but not that unclear. I misread you because I was writing in haste, I shouldn't have written anything. Hmm, I realize this dosen't reflect well on me. At any rate, got home after a long drive and now I need sleep. Since I'm not fully coherent, maybe I shouldn't be writing this now either (alas, I'll regret it when I wake up – how convinient is that!). Again, sorry for the harsh, misdirected words, indeed, a product of a misunderstanding (on my part). I think I should probably end this comment now and revisit this when I'm more lucid. El_C 12:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not a liar -- it is telling that when confronted with facts you retreat into personal insults. You have posted this definition in the article, and here on the talk pages -- and talk pages are for discussions about how to improve the article, and explanations for chantes to the article -- you have claimed that this is a marxist definition. Yes, the quote was taken from the talk page -- but so what? It is the "talk page" of the "Capitalism" article!!. Moreover, in this edit summary [2] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII:"Marx does not define the word "capitalism" --just as Adam Smith doesn't. I don't have to do research for a damned thing that I haven't posted in the article. I never posted anything in the article that was labeled as a Marxist definition. You're out of line. RJII 19:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Slrubenstein:I am quoting you right here: "...the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production." So yes, you obviously have posted something that you yourself labeled a "Marxist definition." The problem is, your Marxist definition is wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) RHII:You're a liar. That was taken from the Talk page. That was never posted to the article. Again, I find over and over you to be a reprehensible disingenuous individual who is a complete waste of time to have a discussion with. So, this concludes my wasting my time talking to you. I forget that I had come to that conclusion before. RJII 19:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Respond if you want, but I'm not going to respond to you. As I said, you are a waste of time for me to converse with. Find someone else to get into petty disputes with. And adjust your behavior. It is not civil to lie about fellow editors. RJII 00:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is a system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries and replaced feudalism and mercantilism. There are many, sometimes contradictory, theories and definitions of capitalism that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and in the 20th century, in the context of the Cold War. Most definitions of capitalism include some combination of the following: the right of individuals, or groups of individuals to act as corporations with distinct legal personality, to own and trade private property including capital goods and land in a competitive environment in the form of a free or relatively free market, where price and wages are determined by supply and demand, and where there is investment for profit, with risks being assumed by the investors and investment decisions being made privately; the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; explicit and implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
I put "labor" back in the first paragraph. There is no doubt that in capitalist economies labor is a commodity -- economists talk about labor markets all the time, and all big business have offices of "human resources." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct -- I should have said "labor power." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please note, too, that the first paragraph is not a definition of capitalism but a list of elements that are found in various definitions of capitalism. Some definitions do not include a concept of "labor-power" but some do. the same can be said for other elements. NPOV requires as inclusive a list as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV does not require wrong facts to be included. Labour power cannot be owned, therefore it is not a good. It's as easy as that. Also, the sentence talks about capital goods, which are in exact opposition to labour power. The previous intro already states that wages are determined by supply and demand. I think that's clear enough. Luis rib 21:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rand was a seminal figure in putting forward capitalism as an ideology that was defensible on moral grounds rather than just practical grounds. She was influential beyond just those roids that called themselves objectivists, and her works were the second only to the bible in sale for many years. In a sense she helped to bring capitalism "out of the closet", and should be given her due. I was a bit surprised to find only an external link reference. There was one reference to Milton Friedman that I spotted that was also a natural place to include her and perhaps her one time associate, Greenspan.-- Silverback 12:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There can be only two solutions:
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As the revert war continues, would this do as a compromise?
Capitalism, also known as the free market, is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. It is typically regarded as comprising the following: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties. SlimVirgin 15:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Which part(s) of my compromise constitute original research, would you say? SlimVirgin 15:19, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism' is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market.
Silverback, your intro is very definitely OR. I'd revert, but now have no idea which version to revert to. RJII, what is wrong, in your view, with the capitalism arose sentence? It's quite factual. There's no need to say privately or corporately owned, because we later say what a corporation is. Also your version makes no mention of the state's protection of property rights which is crucial. And you don't say what a corporation is. And capitalism isn't a social system; it's an economic system. I'm not sure what "economic and social system" means in this context. And the means of production are mostly privately owned. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone on this page have a degree in economics or a closely related subject? Because, if so, I think we should be guided by that person. SlimVirgin 15:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've left a note for an editor who has a degree in economics, but he may not have time to help out. Ultramarine, what would your introduction be, if you could write whatever you wanted (bearing in mind NPOV and NOR)? SlimVirgin 16:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an example that lists the elements of all defintions:
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
the right of individuals to own, and trade private property including capital goods; the right of groups of individuals to act as a corporation with distinct legal personality and responsibility; the strong protection of these rights; the existence of an strong enforcement of contractual agreements and peaceful settlements of disagrements by a third party; a free or relatively free market where price is determined by supply and demand; private investment for profit with the risk of loss of the investment; competition for this profit; following feudalism; today dominant in the Western world; today not present in a pure form but only partially in the current "mixed economy"; never achieved in its pure form; in anarcho-capitalist theory, peaceful, voluntary exchange which is fully realized only without a state; in marxist theory, exploitation of workers by the owners of capital; in minarchist theory, the role of government is limited mostly to protecting economic liberty and private property." Ultramarine 16:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That looks good. It's quite similar to this version [3], which I think is Slrubenstein's. SlimVirgin 16:39, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
The marxist definition is not a good faith definition, it is a strawman, intended to be dismissive or a criticism. The way you can tell, is to check the marxist definition of communism. Is it the "exploitation of workers by fellow workers" or the "exploitation of workers by the state". Obviously, exploitation is intended to be pejorative rather than informative.-- Silverback 16:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Das Kapital is one of the most important or definitive descriptions of capitalism. It's appropriate to mention Marx in the introduction. SlimVirgin 16:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to return to the bullet point version. Ultramarine's version is inferior to the two versions we were discussing, so we should forget about it. Also, as I mentioned in my comment to El C, we could have two intro paragraphs, one being the definition part (i.e. one of the two we were considering, or modifications of those), followed by a paragraph explaining the diverging definitions by marxists and libertarians. Luis rib 16:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Influential non-academics like Rand and Marx are also important. Neither did much publishing in peer reviewed journals. Important politicians are also good sources. -- Silverback 18:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Academic and non-academic research and philosophy from noteable authors commonly contain disparate opinions on how capitalism should best be defined or characterized. However, "capitalism," as defined in the most widely-disseminated and consulted dictionaries, is typically described as an economic system being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. RJII 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about something like the beginning of this article (but written in a more NPOV version): http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch9.asp Luis rib 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This quote is from Dr. John Hospers, who was head of the Dept. of Philosophy at USC at the time.-- Silverback 18:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another term associated with laissez faire is capitalism. This again is a term of indefinite meaning depending upon who uses it. It is employed by the enemies of the American system for purposes of slur. -- Herbert Hoover
Capitalism is a system of exchangable private-property rights in goods and services, with the central government, protecting and enforcing these rights. Private-property rights, in turn, can be defined as the rights of owners to choose the use of their goods and resources (including labor and time) as they see fit. -- "Exchange and Production" by Alchian & Allen.
-- Silverback 19:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless, in most modern capitalist economies the State attempts to maintain a certain degree of economic planning (using such tools as allowing the country's central bank to set base interest rates) in order to discourage economic instability and provide greater longer-term direction (disputed — see talk page).
Some economists would argue that instability is the effect of government manipulation of the money supply which causes intertemporal distortions in the interest rate and deviations from the "natural" rate of interest, resulting in a misallocation of capital resulting in business "cycles". Central banks are used to borrow money on behalf of the populace or future generations without their consent, because the debt of a State must eventually be paid off by its citizens; this method of finance also hides the true cost of government spending, for with taxation the participants know how much is being used, but with inflation these costs are spread unevenly throughtout the economy and cause the phenomenon of inflation.
RJII, the version preferred by User:JoshG, User:JMaxwell and myself is a little more encyclopedic than the version you keep reverting to, in my view. If you and Ultramarine feel there's material missing from it, would it not make more sense to add a second paragraph containing that material, rather than to revert continually? I don't know why you feel there's no evidence to support the edit that capitalism arose out of feudalism and mercantilism: it's in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you want a reference, so it shouldn't be deleted. You might also want to be careful that you don't violate 3RR, as this isn't worth getting blocked for. SlimVirgin 15:00, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine, I was under the impression you supported RJII's latest version. Here's the one I support: it's not what I'd write left to my own devices, but I'm happy with it as a compromise. If you agree, there's no reason to allow this other version to constantly be reverted to. RJII, I wasn't being patronizing and I'm sorry it sounded that way. I do actually have a genuine concern not to see you blocked. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I came across this quote from Jimbo Wales the other day, and it seems particularly apt regarding an article on capitalism. SlimVirgin 16:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I frequently counsel people who are getting frustrated about an edit war to think about someone who lives without clean drinking water, without any proper means of education, and how our work might someday help that person. It puts flamewars into some perspective, I think. — Jimbo Wales [7]
That would be an unusual interpretation of the quote. Not everyone finds it fun. Some find it quite upsetting, and it's almost never good for articles; and we're here to write articles. SlimVirgin 16:46, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Perhaps. But don't forget that's a process that invariably has casualties. There are less hazardous ways. SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a dictionary def that you would probably argue includes unnecessary detail:
Mode of socio-economic organization in which a class of entrepeneurs and entrepeneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, ed. Simon Blackburn, 1996 SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
LOL! I'm starting to think we need a definition of dictionary, and a definition of definition. Someone find us a meta-dictionary please. ;-) I only offered the above as an illustration of how dictionary definitions vary. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Silverback is doing some real research. Ultramarine, you should read Friedman, I'll read Adam Smith, and as a punishment, RJII can be assigned Das Kapital. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Some people want the intro to say that capitalism is typically defined as a system where the "predominate" or "most" of the means of production are privately owned. But, that's not a typical definition of capitalism. There is no such qualifier in the typical definitions of capitalism. So, that's "original research" --a violation of Wikipedia policy. I wouldn't ordinarly be such a stickler but that seems to be the attitude around here, and that claim has been used against me. RJII 16:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please provide a source or sources showing that the EB is an atypical definition. Also, a mention of what capitalism replaced and arose out of IS part of the description. At some point, this discussion of what a definition is has to stop. Wikipedia intros are supposed to follow the upside pyramid to some extent and offer a brief overview of the subject, not restrict themselves to dictionary definitions. I've restored the consensus introduction, and am pasting it below. If you want to make changes, please make them on this talk page, and then discuss them, instead of continually reverting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. There is some debate regarding the exact definition [10] of capitalism, but most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
"most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ... " SlimVirgin 17:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Please read what it says. "Most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ..." That doesn't mean that most include all of the following. I didn't substitute typical with most. What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that e.g. the UK under Margaret Thatcher (the most capitalist of British prime ministers) did not have a capitalist economy because the state retained ownership of a few industries? SlimVirgin 17:16, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. Please be explicit, and please note that I have no POV when it comes to finding a description of capitalism. Regarding your recent edit of the words "correct definition," there is no such thing as a "correct" definition in a situation like this. Precise, agreed, or exact definition would all work better. Also, for the record, I note that you're using misleading edit summaries, e.g. calling the last edit "remove quote marks," when in fact you made a partial revert. [11]. I'm happy to debate this issue with you, but I will not get into a fight about it, or have meta-discussions about what the word "definition" means. SlimVirgin 17:26, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute this unqualified assertion. Noteable theorists do not agree. For example, Rand says that capitalism has yet to exist, hence the title of her book "The Unknown Ideal." Noam Chomsky says that capitalism does not exist. As far as the replacing feudalism statement, Oppenhemier says that capitalism is a blending of feudalism and markets. RJII 17:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the authorities (like Smith, Marx, Greenspan, DeSoto, Rand) consider capitalism to have evolved from feodalism and rely on state protection. In fact, probably everyone except anarcho-capitalists. Their minority view should not dominate the article. Ultramarine 17:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of this could be resolved if the definition is limited to the content of the "typical" definition. It's the only way I know of to minimize POV. RJII 17:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you write it here for discussion, but please note that Chomsky is not an authoritative source. Also, it would help to expand a little, in a scholarly way, rather than just saying "according to some, e.g. Rand, capitalism has never existed." SlimVirgin 17:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Changing the statement to this should suit Rand and Oppenheimer: "Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, evolving out of feodalism and mercantilism, although some argue that there has never been a completely pure form" Ultramarine 18:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note, I have added some quotations from Encarta Referenece Libarary to definitions of capitalism since RJII asked for more sources. Ultramarine 18:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about this: "Capitalism is an economic system that evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism" Ultramarine 18:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Tried out new formulation. Maybe it's more consensual. Luis rib 18:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removed industrial revolution, it emerged from capitalism, not from feodalism, according to every source I have read. Suggest this:
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [12] of capitalism, but most definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, except point 7), which is not really a definiton. I would finish the sentence after point 6). Then continue with: It evolved out of.... Luis rib 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion (changed to mainstream definitions) And definitions can included history, see for example MW definition of "bronze age":
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [13] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I personnally prefer the initial version (i.e. the one RJ does not like), where feudalism is mentioned in the first or last sentence, but is not part of the enumeration of definitions. But I won't revert it; it's a minor, rather stylistic point, and definitely not worth an edit war. Luis rib 19:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.3 Wikify, grammar, mostly privately owned, means of production like capital. Not all of mainstream definitions include feudalism so it should be mentioned in the list. Otherwise there is an impression that all definitions include this.
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [14] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) The means of production like capital are mostly privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private- property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.4 Removed means of productions as Capital should be enough, removed duplicate mentioning of profit
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [15] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) Capital is mostly privately owned; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a B.S. statement meant to slide POV in. Why list characteristics that are not in most definitions. One could list an infinite number of characteristics that are not included in most definitions. "Some of" needs to be deleted. RJII 19:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is not typical of mainsteam definitions, and for good reason. If only 51% of the means of production are privately owned is it still capitalism? Of course not. That's indisputably a "mixed economy." The list of characteristics should be what is typically found in mainstream definitions. Yes, the Encyclopedia Britannica says "most", but, as I've said many times, encyclopedias are not dictionaries; dictionaries are the commonly-consulted source for definitions. RJII 20:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Rv. Show policy that Enyclopedia Brittancia cannot be used as a source" <--what is this? No one is claiming that EB cannot be used as a source. I am claiming that the definition there is not typical of mainstream definitions beause it says "most." Why not represent what's typical of mainstream definitions instead of insisting on just one atypical one? Is it because this one suits your POV? RJII 20:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, how ludicrous is it for you to criticize someone for edit warring when you're centrally involved in the edit war? Get a grip. RJII 20:44, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Predominant" is a better word here than "mostly." The "predominant" means of production is that which gives its tone to the rest, which "dominates" the system. Govt-owned systems such as the TVA exist in the US, but they take their tone from the predominantly private system. It isn't a matter of percentages. -- Christofurio 03:42, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Taxman (note: I asked Taxman's opinion because he has degrees in economics and the mathematics of finance)
Taxman, I wonder whether you have any time to look in on Talk:Capitalism. There's a dispute (and revert war) regarding the introduction and what it should say. One editor feels that the current introduction states or implies that capitalism has been "implemented," and that this is POV. I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the argument, and can only ask for authoritative sources for the claim that capitalism has not been "implemented" (by which I take it he means it has never existed in a pure form). Do you know whether this is a tiny-minority view of the kind that should not be referred to in the introduction? Or if it is a mainstream view, can you refer us to an authoritative, academic source? If you don't have time, however, that's fine, I understand. Best, SlimVirgin 19:28, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
A relatively pure/idealistic definition of capitalism such as the anarcho's might choose, should be allowed to dominate if not monopolize the introduction, just as the ideal does at Communism and Anarchy. It is a basic lack of courtesy that has allowed this controversy to continue. Pet peeves and historical interpretations should not have to be in the intro. -- Silverback 13:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strange that they locked the page. I thought a general consensus was starting to materialize --that we were going to provide the most common mainstream definition, rather than POV push. RJII 14:26, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You have written this on anarcho-capitalism on Feb 19 and has since then tried to change the introduction of the Capitalism article to this anarcho-capitalist definition:
"1. It is important in understanding anarcho-capitalism that the definition of "capitalism" to which is referred by the school of thought is one that refers to a free market. For example, Merriam-Webster defines capitalism as: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." This differs from some other definitions that make no mention of a "free market" but instead refer to the private ownership of the means of production." [17] Ultramarine 14:49, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how "exploitation of labourers" could be part of any serious definition of capitalism. As far as I know, only Communists employ such a definition. This should be made clear. As it is now, it just looks like "exploitation" is a neutrally accepted view adopted by most people - which it is most definetely not! The question of exploitation could be explained and treated in the criticism section, but should not be included in the definition. Luis rib 19:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
David Harvey defined capitalism in terms of three features: it is growth-oriented ("a steady state of growth is essential for the health of a capitalist economic system"); "growth in real values rests on the exploitation of living labor in production;" and it is "necessarily technologically and organizationally dynamic."
Eric Wolf defines capitalism in terms of "three intertwined characteristics:" First, capitalists detain control of the means of production. Second, laborers are denied independent access to means of production and must sell their labor power to the capitalists. Third, the maximalization of surplus produced by the laborers with the means of production owned by the capitalists entails "ceaseless accumulation accompanied by changes in the methods of production" (Sweezy 1942: 94; Mandel 1978, 103-107).
Dictionary of Critical Sociology: "A system which separates workers from any property rights in the means by which they produce culture by their labor. The system transforms the social means of subsistence into capital on the one hand and the immediate producers into wage laborers on the other hand. Most of the time, capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of production but that definition does not encompass the great harm done to humanity by the system. By claiming all (or most) of the means to produce culture as private property, a small class of owners preempts material culture to their own comfort while denying the vast majority the means to subsistence as well as the means to produce ideological culture when they are not working." Ultramarine 19:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
First, this discussion -- in which people point out that each others' definitions are POV -- was precisely the reason why a year ago or so people agreed tothe three bullet-point definition, as an inclusive basis for a more complex discussion. Second, Luis rib's point that Harvey is a geography professor and not an economics professor is irrelevant. Economists do not have a monopoly on analyses of capitalism, nor do they have any particular authority. Yes, views of economists shouold be represented, but scholars from many disciplines have provided detailed analyses of capitalism (including Harvey). Finally, RJII's claim that the definitions by Wolf and Harvey is "hearsay" is a ridiculous objection. These are paraphrases of Wolf and Harvey which is completely legitimate in Wikipedia. RJII is grasping at straws because he has done no research while others have done serious research. The sources for these definitions are Wolf, Europe and the People Without History page 78; Harvey comes from The Condition of Postmodernity page 180.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 17:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is contradictory in there? RJII 21:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine: You put the above back in after I deleted it, saying "Is it NPOV to only represent the pro-capitalist definitions?" I don't understand what you mean. How is not putting that in there pro-capitalist?? Anyway you asked for a citation that there is not consensus that the modern economies are capitalism. Here's one: "What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy" -Ayn Rand (from Playboy interview). She is a very published, influence, and noteable author ..unlike the geography professor you quoted above. Need another? "There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence" -Noam Chomsky RJII 21:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
" Communist parties still rule several nations and get many votes in many other nations. Their views are widespread." <-what are you talking about? RJII 22:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Communist parties still rule Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and China. Communist regularly get around 10% of the votes in many countries. This is certainly a more widespred view than those of Rand, anarcho-capitalits or minarchists. The Libertarian party only got under 0.5% of the votes in the US and much less for similar parties in other nations.
The private ownership of capital definition is not a Marxist definition. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong. Marx characterizes capitalism as a structure, and explains what structural features define capitalism. Just because you are ignorant of Marx does not mean that Marx didn't have a definition -- it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII is covering up for his own ignorance. Ultramarine is completely correct -- OED does not provide "Marx's definition." If you do not know what Marx's definition is, RJII, then just do not go around claiming you know what it is. But if you insist on claiming you know what it is, you must provide a source from Marx himself!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Marx does explain what capitalism is, and he does not say it is "private ownership of capital." Just because you do not know what Marx's definition of capitalism is does not mean that he does not have one, it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What difference does it make? What is important is that contributors to this article be committed to our NPOV and NOR policies. Marx explains what the capitalist mode of production is -- and it is not "private ownership of capital." If you are going to present a "Marxist definition of capitalism" you must do research and provide sources. Appropriate sources for a Marxist definition of capitalism is not a dictionary, but a book by Marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You did make such a post to the article. In this edit summary [18] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." And as I have explained, you are wrong. And although I have asked you to provide the actual source for this definition (you write "Marx" but neglected to say what book or chapter or page), you still haven't backed up your own claim. From this I infer that you have not done serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro question seems to have been resolved, could we discuss the distribution of wealth paragraph, which makes lots of assertions that seem wrong to me? In particular: where is the source for this sentence: Typically between 0.5% and 1% of people own more than half of productive capacity, if not half of all wealth? Where are the various studies? Luis rib 12:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a new intro that is hopefuly less disputatious and more rational (an explanation follows):
Capitalism is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. 4) A competitive environment exists that is favorable for owners of capital. (see definitions of capitalism for various published definitions)
Some maintain that capitalism was institutionalized between time frames approximately corresponding to the period between the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. Probably most assert that it exists in some economies today. Some assert that capitalism has never existed. Others hold that it has existed in the past but no longer exists. Noteable economists and political philosophers differ broadly in this regard.
Explanation... I used the term "typically regarded" so that stray definitions by malcontent college professors don't count. I think I've obviated any need for government to be mentioned (typical definitions out there do not mention government anyway), by pointing out "private" ownership and "private" decisions --private means government is not involved --so that takes care of laissez-faire. "Free market" is there as that is very typical in definitions. And, 4 is something that I think both Marxists and pro-capitalist individuals can agree on ...life is better if you have capital. Not only this, but it also accords with a definition of capitalism in the Oxford English as well as according to other definitions that mention competition. Finally, I took the assertion that capitalism has been established out of the definition, as that goes beyond defining capitalism, and put it in a separate pararaph noting the lack of consensus. I also added a note about Ultramarine's definitions of capitalism article. Finally, I put the conditions in sentence form as a way to help force or guide people to make coherent statements. Any objections or recommendations? RJII 14:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you think I am a vandal have the guts to say so on the "vandalism in progress page" and request mediation, arbitration, or some other action against me -- and try to prove it. Put your money where yor mouth is. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with SlimVirgin, the second paragraph is bizarre and not helpful in the intro. Will take it out, but, RJII, im not vandal. Mgw 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mgw 19:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
God has nothing to do with it. I have a problem with how this intro speaks of most definitions, then proceeds to legalistically illustrate one favourable to capitalism out of it (which I realize is the aim and POV of most involved here, so no suprises on that front). Well, it isn't the number of definitions, qunatitatively, but the impact each had, that the definition (the definition that claims it is a summary of definitions) should encompass — not one pro-capitalist definition based on this most factor.
1. Capitalism is not simply a system, as I already stated here, strongly, it is an economic system with particular economic charachteristics. As the New Webster Dictionary for the English Languages (print) pointedly states in its one sentence definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit."
2. The role of capitalists remains omitted (!). The role of wealth being highly centralized and concentrated (250 billionaires own as much wealth as 2.5 billion poorest people - a factor of a million to one), within a tiny segment of the population. This isn't merely a demographic footnote, it's absolutely pivotal as to how capitalism operates, socially and economically.
3. That modern Political economy is fundamentally based around approches to capitalism, as I stated a few weeks ago: the Left seeks to reverse it revolutionarily, the Moderate Left seeks to reverse it evolutionarily, the Moderate Right seeks to retain it in a reformed form, the Right seeks to retain it. That the article is somehow incapable of outlining this broadly and instead using the specific theories as pretext to 'give up' and opt for the most summary (which sneaks one of these through the backdoor), is not an approach I find credible.
I suggested a few weeks ago (no comments in response were provided) that the intro should aim towards something between the Economist and Monthly Review, instead (predictably), it appears to go with the former. I'm not sure why I expected more (I didn't, really, it was largely rhetorical): A definition of capitalism, written under capitalism, by a website owned by a capitalist (whose own ideological affiliation, Rand, is grossly overrepresented here, as in elsewhere in other articles, as per her own historical/political/economic/etc., impact; 'ideas of the ruling class remain, as always, the ruling ideas,' with NPOV being a mere buzz word for ours is neutral). This is all to be expected, as are the objections I posed and continue to pose, as is the fact that they are going to make no difference whatsoever, with the exception of, perhaps, making a few people think a bit more critically – that, too, is an accomplishment of sorts. Sorry, SlR, I think you are a fine anthroplogist, but this opening paragraph is one that I find highly lacking. At least it isn't original reserach, though, it's just very, very selective. Until a few decades ago –one third of the planet– was officially committed to reversing capitalism, but apperently this isn't even worth being mentioned as a minor footnote in this intro. Intellectually, historically, a grotesquely political omission.
On the other hand, we have RJII who makes an original research, abstract contradistinction which I don't find has basis in fact. S/he writes: The other, somewhat prevalant, set of definitions do not refer to the nature of economic decisions or methods of pricing and distribution but, instead, define capitalism as the private ownership of capital. I'm sorry, RJII, I have never heard of that distinction made by anyone (and I just noticed your comment now on my talk page, sorry I overlooked it the day you sent to me). Ownership explicitly intimates decisionmaking (and I don't mean just in the abstract, but historically it has and continues to) on some and/or all of these fronts; I don't know anyone that sees this (superimposed, I argue) distinction as even remotely mutually exclusive as you phrase it. On the contrary, the two fit quite well together, and have been written on extensively as an interconnected whole; so, it is my understanding that this do not refer bit is made-up stuff. I see no evidence that any of the major theories from the Left, M Left, M Right, and Right, treat it in this way.
Argh, I don't blame you SlR, but had it not been for your request, this would have remained one of several articles in the enecyclopedia that I would never, ever read, because I know, for it, NPOV is mere lip-service and it would just upset me, pointlessly, which it has. But I do hope my points above resonate, somewhat (you've heard it all, I know, but it's the context which matters). And RJII, no offence, but you need to do more research on the subject, you're treating complex theories far to simplistically and reducationistically, and originally. Yet, depite this (and I argue, because of this) unfamiliarity with the material, you are able to highlight some truths which those with greater expertise (ironically, to the left of you) are dogmatically b(l)inded (chained, even) to overlook and ommit. But such glimpses are, of course, not nearly enough. El_C 23:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no interest in engaging with polemics with you, especially on such a superficial and antagonistic level. I am disheartened that you opt merely for combativeness rather than addressing the specific items I raised. If you wish to discredit my argument (which I did expend some effort into formulating, though that seems of little consequence to you) in such a dismissive, abrasive manner, well, naturally I find that a dispiriting (but far from an unexpected) response, that remains your prerogative. El_C 11:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1)I agree that capitalism is just an economic system, and that it should be pointed out.
2)I disagree with this point. Inegality exists, and there's no doubt about that, but the numbers you cite are misleading. The billionaires you cite reside mostly in the US, which has a rather extreme version of capitalism (though admittedly sopme claim that it is the purest capitalism in existence). In Europe, inegalities are much lower, especially in the Scandinavian countries. Also, the 2.5 billion poor you cite live mostly in countries which are not capitalist, or which have only become capitalist in recent years. India, for instance, had a planned economy until the early nineties, which might (and in my opinion does) explain the wide-spread poverty that still exists there. China too only embraced capitalism in the last 20 years, and the regions that remain untouched by it (the interior provinces) are, of course, very poor. Africa has certainly the highest levels of poverty, but again almost no African country is truly capitalist. Botswana, Mauritius and South Africa are exceptions, and are also the African countries that managed to develop most. Most other countries have maintained dirigist state-controlled economies, on the Indian model. The lack of infrastructure is also a huge problem in Africa, and one that global capitalism has indeed failed to address. Latin America, finally, has the highest levels of inegality, but again in Latin America interventionist politics have prevented real free markets from emerging. Wealth is concentrated among very few people which have strong links to politicians, which prevents the competition that is necessary in true capitalism (NB: the US also partly have this problem, if you think about the shocking monopoly that Bill Gates' Microsoft is allowed to enjoy).
3)You are right that the article is messy and mixes all the ideas instead of clearly stating which political wings adopt them. Maybe a new paragraph/section should be added, which could explain these different approaches.
4) I don't know the Monthly Review. Is it an American news magazine (I live in Europe, btw). The Economist is certainly right-wing, but usually relatively neutral (at least they give arguments for their positions). In some previous version, I had suggested to add a different paragraph in the intro that would explain the marxist or left-wing definition of capitalism. Somehow, this disappeared in the following edit war. After all, why should the intro only have a single paragraph? It should, i think, have two or three, where the different positions relative to capitalism are explained. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for the minarchist (what the hell is that anyway?) or anarcho-capitalist versions. I agree with your proposal of 4 views: the marxist, the moderate left, the moderate right, and the libertarians. Concerning your comment on Communism, I maintain my rather aggressive view of it, which I wrote in my previous comment. Fascism also once controlled a big chunk of the world, yet that does not mean that the views of Fascism should be granted the same importance as other, more pacifist, views.
5) I don't think that this article is highly imbalanced, at least if you consider it as a whole. Some sections are clearly POV from a marxist point of view (worst of all, in my opinion, the Distribution of wealth section). Other sections are POV from a right-wing position. Yet if you compare this article to the article on Communism, it is a totally neutral article. Any contribution to the Communism article that tries to criticise it will immediately launch an edit war that will end with numerous counter-criticisms to the initial critique. Any single critique one makes has to be weighed by sources. I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Well, now I took some time too to answer your comment. I would gladly read your reply. Luis rib 12:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
With that preamble out of the way, I'm writing in haste so, regretfully, I will not be able to respond to your substantive comments above as I have to get going in ~5 minutes; even with what I intend to say now, I have to be brief. A word of caution first: in light of the wide-ranged scope of your comments, my response may end up being rather lengthy – perhaps we should continue the discussion on a subpage and link it here as (hopefuly) a must-read (?). Anyway, before I go, If I could quickly respond to/reference your very last sentence/query, which reads:
I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Of course to those billions, disposal income is their wealth, thus, the figures are rather similar when it is measured as such. Note that the following UN study is from 1996, the above from 1998. Since class inequality has risen so much in the last ~decade, I believe my 255 viz. 2.5Bn example is valid, but I wasn't able to trace the source for it on-the-fly, nonetheless, it is still a few hunderd individuals versus 2.x billions, so in a general sense, it makes little difference either way.
So, indeed, not a handful — as I claimed in my first comment, a few hundred. El_C 14:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Negative. I quoted you directly from my Talk page, I never said you lied, I did not mention your view in extension to Marxism, nor have I commented on your version for that matter (only SlR and UM's), except touching on your original research premise that ownership-decisionmaking are defintionally distinct — which is your original research (lifting part of it from the Oxford dictionary to create it and all the bravado in your above comment notwithstanding). You have no reference that speaks of this distintiction outright, as such, you made that stuff up yourself. At any rate, I don't believe you read my comment closely enough, nor do I think that you are sufficiently well-read or have the background to be writing about this issue. And, moreoever, you seem too emotionally immature and not accustomed to dispassionate intellectual debate. Oh, and incidentally, I take exception to your claim/insult that I have nothing better to do than write irrelevant crap, that is false: I do have better things to do! Yes, yes, I'm off to do them (wish me luck!). :) El_C 21:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Argh, no, I apologize for that. Yes, it was a bit unclear, but not that unclear. I misread you because I was writing in haste, I shouldn't have written anything. Hmm, I realize this dosen't reflect well on me. At any rate, got home after a long drive and now I need sleep. Since I'm not fully coherent, maybe I shouldn't be writing this now either (alas, I'll regret it when I wake up – how convinient is that!). Again, sorry for the harsh, misdirected words, indeed, a product of a misunderstanding (on my part). I think I should probably end this comment now and revisit this when I'm more lucid. El_C 12:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not a liar -- it is telling that when confronted with facts you retreat into personal insults. You have posted this definition in the article, and here on the talk pages -- and talk pages are for discussions about how to improve the article, and explanations for chantes to the article -- you have claimed that this is a marxist definition. Yes, the quote was taken from the talk page -- but so what? It is the "talk page" of the "Capitalism" article!!. Moreover, in this edit summary [19] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII:"Marx does not define the word "capitalism" --just as Adam Smith doesn't. I don't have to do research for a damned thing that I haven't posted in the article. I never posted anything in the article that was labeled as a Marxist definition. You're out of line. RJII 19:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Slrubenstein:I am quoting you right here: "...the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production." So yes, you obviously have posted something that you yourself labeled a "Marxist definition." The problem is, your Marxist definition is wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) RHII:You're a liar. That was taken from the Talk page. That was never posted to the article. Again, I find over and over you to be a reprehensible disingenuous individual who is a complete waste of time to have a discussion with. So, this concludes my wasting my time talking to you. I forget that I had come to that conclusion before. RJII 19:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Respond if you want, but I'm not going to respond to you. As I said, you are a waste of time for me to converse with. Find someone else to get into petty disputes with. And adjust your behavior. It is not civil to lie about fellow editors. RJII 00:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is a system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries and replaced feudalism and mercantilism. There are many, sometimes contradictory, theories and definitions of capitalism that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and in the 20th century, in the context of the Cold War. Most definitions of capitalism include some combination of the following: the right of individuals, or groups of individuals to act as corporations with distinct legal personality, to own and trade private property including capital goods and land in a competitive environment in the form of a free or relatively free market, where price and wages are determined by supply and demand, and where there is investment for profit, with risks being assumed by the investors and investment decisions being made privately; the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; explicit and implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
I put "labor" back in the first paragraph. There is no doubt that in capitalist economies labor is a commodity -- economists talk about labor markets all the time, and all big business have offices of "human resources." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct -- I should have said "labor power." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please note, too, that the first paragraph is not a definition of capitalism but a list of elements that are found in various definitions of capitalism. Some definitions do not include a concept of "labor-power" but some do. the same can be said for other elements. NPOV requires as inclusive a list as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV does not require wrong facts to be included. Labour power cannot be owned, therefore it is not a good. It's as easy as that. Also, the sentence talks about capital goods, which are in exact opposition to labour power. The previous intro already states that wages are determined by supply and demand. I think that's clear enough. Luis rib 21:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rand was a seminal figure in putting forward capitalism as an ideology that was defensible on moral grounds rather than just practical grounds. She was influential beyond just those roids that called themselves objectivists, and her works were the second only to the bible in sale for many years. In a sense she helped to bring capitalism "out of the closet", and should be given her due. I was a bit surprised to find only an external link reference. There was one reference to Milton Friedman that I spotted that was also a natural place to include her and perhaps her one time associate, Greenspan.-- Silverback 12:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There can be only two solutions:
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As the revert war continues, would this do as a compromise?
Capitalism, also known as the free market, is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. It is typically regarded as comprising the following: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties. SlimVirgin 15:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Which part(s) of my compromise constitute original research, would you say? SlimVirgin 15:19, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism' is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market.
Silverback, your intro is very definitely OR. I'd revert, but now have no idea which version to revert to. RJII, what is wrong, in your view, with the capitalism arose sentence? It's quite factual. There's no need to say privately or corporately owned, because we later say what a corporation is. Also your version makes no mention of the state's protection of property rights which is crucial. And you don't say what a corporation is. And capitalism isn't a social system; it's an economic system. I'm not sure what "economic and social system" means in this context. And the means of production are mostly privately owned. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone on this page have a degree in economics or a closely related subject? Because, if so, I think we should be guided by that person. SlimVirgin 15:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've left a note for an editor who has a degree in economics, but he may not have time to help out. Ultramarine, what would your introduction be, if you could write whatever you wanted (bearing in mind NPOV and NOR)? SlimVirgin 16:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an example that lists the elements of all defintions:
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
the right of individuals to own, and trade private property including capital goods; the right of groups of individuals to act as a corporation with distinct legal personality and responsibility; the strong protection of these rights; the existence of an strong enforcement of contractual agreements and peaceful settlements of disagrements by a third party; a free or relatively free market where price is determined by supply and demand; private investment for profit with the risk of loss of the investment; competition for this profit; following feudalism; today dominant in the Western world; today not present in a pure form but only partially in the current "mixed economy"; never achieved in its pure form; in anarcho-capitalist theory, peaceful, voluntary exchange which is fully realized only without a state; in marxist theory, exploitation of workers by the owners of capital; in minarchist theory, the role of government is limited mostly to protecting economic liberty and private property." Ultramarine 16:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That looks good. It's quite similar to this version [20], which I think is Slrubenstein's. SlimVirgin 16:39, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
The marxist definition is not a good faith definition, it is a strawman, intended to be dismissive or a criticism. The way you can tell, is to check the marxist definition of communism. Is it the "exploitation of workers by fellow workers" or the "exploitation of workers by the state". Obviously, exploitation is intended to be pejorative rather than informative.-- Silverback 16:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Das Kapital is one of the most important or definitive descriptions of capitalism. It's appropriate to mention Marx in the introduction. SlimVirgin 16:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to return to the bullet point version. Ultramarine's version is inferior to the two versions we were discussing, so we should forget about it. Also, as I mentioned in my comment to El C, we could have two intro paragraphs, one being the definition part (i.e. one of the two we were considering, or modifications of those), followed by a paragraph explaining the diverging definitions by marxists and libertarians. Luis rib 16:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Influential non-academics like Rand and Marx are also important. Neither did much publishing in peer reviewed journals. Important politicians are also good sources. -- Silverback 18:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Academic and non-academic research and philosophy from noteable authors commonly contain disparate opinions on how capitalism should best be defined or characterized. However, "capitalism," as defined in the most widely-disseminated and consulted dictionaries, is typically described as an economic system being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. RJII 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about something like the beginning of this article (but written in a more NPOV version): http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch9.asp Luis rib 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This quote is from Dr. John Hospers, who was head of the Dept. of Philosophy at USC at the time.-- Silverback 18:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another term associated with laissez faire is capitalism. This again is a term of indefinite meaning depending upon who uses it. It is employed by the enemies of the American system for purposes of slur. -- Herbert Hoover
Capitalism is a system of exchangable private-property rights in goods and services, with the central government, protecting and enforcing these rights. Private-property rights, in turn, can be defined as the rights of owners to choose the use of their goods and resources (including labor and time) as they see fit. -- "Exchange and Production" by Alchian & Allen.
-- Silverback 19:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless, in most modern capitalist economies the State attempts to maintain a certain degree of economic planning (using such tools as allowing the country's central bank to set base interest rates) in order to discourage economic instability and provide greater longer-term direction (disputed — see talk page).
Some economists would argue that instability is the effect of government manipulation of the money supply which causes intertemporal distortions in the interest rate and deviations from the "natural" rate of interest, resulting in a misallocation of capital resulting in business "cycles". Central banks are used to borrow money on behalf of the populace or future generations without their consent, because the debt of a State must eventually be paid off by its citizens; this method of finance also hides the true cost of government spending, for with taxation the participants know how much is being used, but with inflation these costs are spread unevenly throughtout the economy and cause the phenomenon of inflation.
RJII, the version preferred by User:JoshG, User:JMaxwell and myself is a little more encyclopedic than the version you keep reverting to, in my view. If you and Ultramarine feel there's material missing from it, would it not make more sense to add a second paragraph containing that material, rather than to revert continually? I don't know why you feel there's no evidence to support the edit that capitalism arose out of feudalism and mercantilism: it's in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you want a reference, so it shouldn't be deleted. You might also want to be careful that you don't violate 3RR, as this isn't worth getting blocked for. SlimVirgin 15:00, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine, I was under the impression you supported RJII's latest version. Here's the one I support: it's not what I'd write left to my own devices, but I'm happy with it as a compromise. If you agree, there's no reason to allow this other version to constantly be reverted to. RJII, I wasn't being patronizing and I'm sorry it sounded that way. I do actually have a genuine concern not to see you blocked. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I came across this quote from Jimbo Wales the other day, and it seems particularly apt regarding an article on capitalism. SlimVirgin 16:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I frequently counsel people who are getting frustrated about an edit war to think about someone who lives without clean drinking water, without any proper means of education, and how our work might someday help that person. It puts flamewars into some perspective, I think. — Jimbo Wales [24]
That would be an unusual interpretation of the quote. Not everyone finds it fun. Some find it quite upsetting, and it's almost never good for articles; and we're here to write articles. SlimVirgin 16:46, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Perhaps. But don't forget that's a process that invariably has casualties. There are less hazardous ways. SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a dictionary def that you would probably argue includes unnecessary detail:
Mode of socio-economic organization in which a class of entrepeneurs and entrepeneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, ed. Simon Blackburn, 1996 SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
LOL! I'm starting to think we need a definition of dictionary, and a definition of definition. Someone find us a meta-dictionary please. ;-) I only offered the above as an illustration of how dictionary definitions vary. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Silverback is doing some real research. Ultramarine, you should read Friedman, I'll read Adam Smith, and as a punishment, RJII can be assigned Das Kapital. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Some people want the intro to say that capitalism is typically defined as a system where the "predominate" or "most" of the means of production are privately owned. But, that's not a typical definition of capitalism. There is no such qualifier in the typical definitions of capitalism. So, that's "original research" --a violation of Wikipedia policy. I wouldn't ordinarly be such a stickler but that seems to be the attitude around here, and that claim has been used against me. RJII 16:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please provide a source or sources showing that the EB is an atypical definition. Also, a mention of what capitalism replaced and arose out of IS part of the description. At some point, this discussion of what a definition is has to stop. Wikipedia intros are supposed to follow the upside pyramid to some extent and offer a brief overview of the subject, not restrict themselves to dictionary definitions. I've restored the consensus introduction, and am pasting it below. If you want to make changes, please make them on this talk page, and then discuss them, instead of continually reverting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. There is some debate regarding the exact definition [27] of capitalism, but most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
"most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ... " SlimVirgin 17:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Please read what it says. "Most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ..." That doesn't mean that most include all of the following. I didn't substitute typical with most. What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that e.g. the UK under Margaret Thatcher (the most capitalist of British prime ministers) did not have a capitalist economy because the state retained ownership of a few industries? SlimVirgin 17:16, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. Please be explicit, and please note that I have no POV when it comes to finding a description of capitalism. Regarding your recent edit of the words "correct definition," there is no such thing as a "correct" definition in a situation like this. Precise, agreed, or exact definition would all work better. Also, for the record, I note that you're using misleading edit summaries, e.g. calling the last edit "remove quote marks," when in fact you made a partial revert. [28]. I'm happy to debate this issue with you, but I will not get into a fight about it, or have meta-discussions about what the word "definition" means. SlimVirgin 17:26, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute this unqualified assertion. Noteable theorists do not agree. For example, Rand says that capitalism has yet to exist, hence the title of her book "The Unknown Ideal." Noam Chomsky says that capitalism does not exist. As far as the replacing feudalism statement, Oppenhemier says that capitalism is a blending of feudalism and markets. RJII 17:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the authorities (like Smith, Marx, Greenspan, DeSoto, Rand) consider capitalism to have evolved from feodalism and rely on state protection. In fact, probably everyone except anarcho-capitalists. Their minority view should not dominate the article. Ultramarine 17:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of this could be resolved if the definition is limited to the content of the "typical" definition. It's the only way I know of to minimize POV. RJII 17:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you write it here for discussion, but please note that Chomsky is not an authoritative source. Also, it would help to expand a little, in a scholarly way, rather than just saying "according to some, e.g. Rand, capitalism has never existed." SlimVirgin 17:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Changing the statement to this should suit Rand and Oppenheimer: "Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, evolving out of feodalism and mercantilism, although some argue that there has never been a completely pure form" Ultramarine 18:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note, I have added some quotations from Encarta Referenece Libarary to definitions of capitalism since RJII asked for more sources. Ultramarine 18:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about this: "Capitalism is an economic system that evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism" Ultramarine 18:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Tried out new formulation. Maybe it's more consensual. Luis rib 18:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removed industrial revolution, it emerged from capitalism, not from feodalism, according to every source I have read. Suggest this:
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [29] of capitalism, but most definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, except point 7), which is not really a definiton. I would finish the sentence after point 6). Then continue with: It evolved out of.... Luis rib 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion (changed to mainstream definitions) And definitions can included history, see for example MW definition of "bronze age":
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [30] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I personnally prefer the initial version (i.e. the one RJ does not like), where feudalism is mentioned in the first or last sentence, but is not part of the enumeration of definitions. But I won't revert it; it's a minor, rather stylistic point, and definitely not worth an edit war. Luis rib 19:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.3 Wikify, grammar, mostly privately owned, means of production like capital. Not all of mainstream definitions include feudalism so it should be mentioned in the list. Otherwise there is an impression that all definitions include this.
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [31] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) The means of production like capital are mostly privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private- property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.4 Removed means of productions as Capital should be enough, removed duplicate mentioning of profit
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [32] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) Capital is mostly privately owned; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a B.S. statement meant to slide POV in. Why list characteristics that are not in most definitions. One could list an infinite number of characteristics that are not included in most definitions. "Some of" needs to be deleted. RJII 19:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is not typical of mainsteam definitions, and for good reason. If only 51% of the means of production are privately owned is it still capitalism? Of course not. That's indisputably a "mixed economy." The list of characteristics should be what is typically found in mainstream definitions. Yes, the Encyclopedia Britannica says "most", but, as I've said many times, encyclopedias are not dictionaries; dictionaries are the commonly-consulted source for definitions. RJII 20:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Rv. Show policy that Enyclopedia Brittancia cannot be used as a source" <--what is this? No one is claiming that EB cannot be used as a source. I am claiming that the definition there is not typical of mainstream definitions beause it says "most." Why not represent what's typical of mainstream definitions instead of insisting on just one atypical one? Is it because this one suits your POV? RJII 20:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, how ludicrous is it for you to criticize someone for edit warring when you're centrally involved in the edit war? Get a grip. RJII 20:44, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Predominant" is a better word here than "mostly." The "predominant" means of production is that which gives its tone to the rest, which "dominates" the system. Govt-owned systems such as the TVA exist in the US, but they take their tone from the predominantly private system. It isn't a matter of percentages. -- Christofurio 03:42, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Taxman (note: I asked Taxman's opinion because he has degrees in economics and the mathematics of finance)
Taxman, I wonder whether you have any time to look in on Talk:Capitalism. There's a dispute (and revert war) regarding the introduction and what it should say. One editor feels that the current introduction states or implies that capitalism has been "implemented," and that this is POV. I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the argument, and can only ask for authoritative sources for the claim that capitalism has not been "implemented" (by which I take it he means it has never existed in a pure form). Do you know whether this is a tiny-minority view of the kind that should not be referred to in the introduction? Or if it is a mainstream view, can you refer us to an authoritative, academic source? If you don't have time, however, that's fine, I understand. Best, SlimVirgin 19:28, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)
A relatively pure/idealistic definition of capitalism such as the anarcho's might choose, should be allowed to dominate if not monopolize the introduction, just as the ideal does at Communism and Anarchy. It is a basic lack of courtesy that has allowed this controversy to continue. Pet peeves and historical interpretations should not have to be in the intro. -- Silverback 13:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Strange that they locked the page. I thought a general consensus was starting to materialize --that we were going to provide the most common mainstream definition, rather than POV push. RJII 14:26, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You have written this on anarcho-capitalism on Feb 19 and has since then tried to change the introduction of the Capitalism article to this anarcho-capitalist definition:
"1. It is important in understanding anarcho-capitalism that the definition of "capitalism" to which is referred by the school of thought is one that refers to a free market. For example, Merriam-Webster defines capitalism as: "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." This differs from some other definitions that make no mention of a "free market" but instead refer to the private ownership of the means of production." [34] Ultramarine 14:49, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how "exploitation of labourers" could be part of any serious definition of capitalism. As far as I know, only Communists employ such a definition. This should be made clear. As it is now, it just looks like "exploitation" is a neutrally accepted view adopted by most people - which it is most definetely not! The question of exploitation could be explained and treated in the criticism section, but should not be included in the definition. Luis rib 19:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
David Harvey defined capitalism in terms of three features: it is growth-oriented ("a steady state of growth is essential for the health of a capitalist economic system"); "growth in real values rests on the exploitation of living labor in production;" and it is "necessarily technologically and organizationally dynamic."
Eric Wolf defines capitalism in terms of "three intertwined characteristics:" First, capitalists detain control of the means of production. Second, laborers are denied independent access to means of production and must sell their labor power to the capitalists. Third, the maximalization of surplus produced by the laborers with the means of production owned by the capitalists entails "ceaseless accumulation accompanied by changes in the methods of production" (Sweezy 1942: 94; Mandel 1978, 103-107).
Dictionary of Critical Sociology: "A system which separates workers from any property rights in the means by which they produce culture by their labor. The system transforms the social means of subsistence into capital on the one hand and the immediate producers into wage laborers on the other hand. Most of the time, capitalism is defined as the private ownership of the means of production but that definition does not encompass the great harm done to humanity by the system. By claiming all (or most) of the means to produce culture as private property, a small class of owners preempts material culture to their own comfort while denying the vast majority the means to subsistence as well as the means to produce ideological culture when they are not working." Ultramarine 19:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
First, this discussion -- in which people point out that each others' definitions are POV -- was precisely the reason why a year ago or so people agreed tothe three bullet-point definition, as an inclusive basis for a more complex discussion. Second, Luis rib's point that Harvey is a geography professor and not an economics professor is irrelevant. Economists do not have a monopoly on analyses of capitalism, nor do they have any particular authority. Yes, views of economists shouold be represented, but scholars from many disciplines have provided detailed analyses of capitalism (including Harvey). Finally, RJII's claim that the definitions by Wolf and Harvey is "hearsay" is a ridiculous objection. These are paraphrases of Wolf and Harvey which is completely legitimate in Wikipedia. RJII is grasping at straws because he has done no research while others have done serious research. The sources for these definitions are Wolf, Europe and the People Without History page 78; Harvey comes from The Condition of Postmodernity page 180.
Slrubenstein |
Talk 17:42, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is contradictory in there? RJII 21:37, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine: You put the above back in after I deleted it, saying "Is it NPOV to only represent the pro-capitalist definitions?" I don't understand what you mean. How is not putting that in there pro-capitalist?? Anyway you asked for a citation that there is not consensus that the modern economies are capitalism. Here's one: "What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy" -Ayn Rand (from Playboy interview). She is a very published, influence, and noteable author ..unlike the geography professor you quoted above. Need another? "There's nothing remotely like capitalism in existence" -Noam Chomsky RJII 21:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
" Communist parties still rule several nations and get many votes in many other nations. Their views are widespread." <-what are you talking about? RJII 22:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Communist parties still rule Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and China. Communist regularly get around 10% of the votes in many countries. This is certainly a more widespred view than those of Rand, anarcho-capitalits or minarchists. The Libertarian party only got under 0.5% of the votes in the US and much less for similar parties in other nations.
The private ownership of capital definition is not a Marxist definition. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong. Marx characterizes capitalism as a structure, and explains what structural features define capitalism. Just because you are ignorant of Marx does not mean that Marx didn't have a definition -- it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII is covering up for his own ignorance. Ultramarine is completely correct -- OED does not provide "Marx's definition." If you do not know what Marx's definition is, RJII, then just do not go around claiming you know what it is. But if you insist on claiming you know what it is, you must provide a source from Marx himself!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Marx does explain what capitalism is, and he does not say it is "private ownership of capital." Just because you do not know what Marx's definition of capitalism is does not mean that he does not have one, it means only that you are ignorant. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What difference does it make? What is important is that contributors to this article be committed to our NPOV and NOR policies. Marx explains what the capitalist mode of production is -- and it is not "private ownership of capital." If you are going to present a "Marxist definition of capitalism" you must do research and provide sources. Appropriate sources for a Marxist definition of capitalism is not a dictionary, but a book by Marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:17, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You did make such a post to the article. In this edit summary [35] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." And as I have explained, you are wrong. And although I have asked you to provide the actual source for this definition (you write "Marx" but neglected to say what book or chapter or page), you still haven't backed up your own claim. From this I infer that you have not done serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:56, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Now that the intro question seems to have been resolved, could we discuss the distribution of wealth paragraph, which makes lots of assertions that seem wrong to me? In particular: where is the source for this sentence: Typically between 0.5% and 1% of people own more than half of productive capacity, if not half of all wealth? Where are the various studies? Luis rib 12:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've put together a new intro that is hopefuly less disputatious and more rational (an explanation follows):
Capitalism is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. 4) A competitive environment exists that is favorable for owners of capital. (see definitions of capitalism for various published definitions)
Some maintain that capitalism was institutionalized between time frames approximately corresponding to the period between the 16th and 19th centuries in Europe. Probably most assert that it exists in some economies today. Some assert that capitalism has never existed. Others hold that it has existed in the past but no longer exists. Noteable economists and political philosophers differ broadly in this regard.
Explanation... I used the term "typically regarded" so that stray definitions by malcontent college professors don't count. I think I've obviated any need for government to be mentioned (typical definitions out there do not mention government anyway), by pointing out "private" ownership and "private" decisions --private means government is not involved --so that takes care of laissez-faire. "Free market" is there as that is very typical in definitions. And, 4 is something that I think both Marxists and pro-capitalist individuals can agree on ...life is better if you have capital. Not only this, but it also accords with a definition of capitalism in the Oxford English as well as according to other definitions that mention competition. Finally, I took the assertion that capitalism has been established out of the definition, as that goes beyond defining capitalism, and put it in a separate pararaph noting the lack of consensus. I also added a note about Ultramarine's definitions of capitalism article. Finally, I put the conditions in sentence form as a way to help force or guide people to make coherent statements. Any objections or recommendations? RJII 14:25, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you think I am a vandal have the guts to say so on the "vandalism in progress page" and request mediation, arbitration, or some other action against me -- and try to prove it. Put your money where yor mouth is. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:14, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with SlimVirgin, the second paragraph is bizarre and not helpful in the intro. Will take it out, but, RJII, im not vandal. Mgw 19:55, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Mgw 19:59, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
God has nothing to do with it. I have a problem with how this intro speaks of most definitions, then proceeds to legalistically illustrate one favourable to capitalism out of it (which I realize is the aim and POV of most involved here, so no suprises on that front). Well, it isn't the number of definitions, qunatitatively, but the impact each had, that the definition (the definition that claims it is a summary of definitions) should encompass — not one pro-capitalist definition based on this most factor.
1. Capitalism is not simply a system, as I already stated here, strongly, it is an economic system with particular economic charachteristics. As the New Webster Dictionary for the English Languages (print) pointedly states in its one sentence definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit."
2. The role of capitalists remains omitted (!). The role of wealth being highly centralized and concentrated (250 billionaires own as much wealth as 2.5 billion poorest people - a factor of a million to one), within a tiny segment of the population. This isn't merely a demographic footnote, it's absolutely pivotal as to how capitalism operates, socially and economically.
3. That modern Political economy is fundamentally based around approches to capitalism, as I stated a few weeks ago: the Left seeks to reverse it revolutionarily, the Moderate Left seeks to reverse it evolutionarily, the Moderate Right seeks to retain it in a reformed form, the Right seeks to retain it. That the article is somehow incapable of outlining this broadly and instead using the specific theories as pretext to 'give up' and opt for the most summary (which sneaks one of these through the backdoor), is not an approach I find credible.
I suggested a few weeks ago (no comments in response were provided) that the intro should aim towards something between the Economist and Monthly Review, instead (predictably), it appears to go with the former. I'm not sure why I expected more (I didn't, really, it was largely rhetorical): A definition of capitalism, written under capitalism, by a website owned by a capitalist (whose own ideological affiliation, Rand, is grossly overrepresented here, as in elsewhere in other articles, as per her own historical/political/economic/etc., impact; 'ideas of the ruling class remain, as always, the ruling ideas,' with NPOV being a mere buzz word for ours is neutral). This is all to be expected, as are the objections I posed and continue to pose, as is the fact that they are going to make no difference whatsoever, with the exception of, perhaps, making a few people think a bit more critically – that, too, is an accomplishment of sorts. Sorry, SlR, I think you are a fine anthroplogist, but this opening paragraph is one that I find highly lacking. At least it isn't original reserach, though, it's just very, very selective. Until a few decades ago –one third of the planet– was officially committed to reversing capitalism, but apperently this isn't even worth being mentioned as a minor footnote in this intro. Intellectually, historically, a grotesquely political omission.
On the other hand, we have RJII who makes an original research, abstract contradistinction which I don't find has basis in fact. S/he writes: The other, somewhat prevalant, set of definitions do not refer to the nature of economic decisions or methods of pricing and distribution but, instead, define capitalism as the private ownership of capital. I'm sorry, RJII, I have never heard of that distinction made by anyone (and I just noticed your comment now on my talk page, sorry I overlooked it the day you sent to me). Ownership explicitly intimates decisionmaking (and I don't mean just in the abstract, but historically it has and continues to) on some and/or all of these fronts; I don't know anyone that sees this (superimposed, I argue) distinction as even remotely mutually exclusive as you phrase it. On the contrary, the two fit quite well together, and have been written on extensively as an interconnected whole; so, it is my understanding that this do not refer bit is made-up stuff. I see no evidence that any of the major theories from the Left, M Left, M Right, and Right, treat it in this way.
Argh, I don't blame you SlR, but had it not been for your request, this would have remained one of several articles in the enecyclopedia that I would never, ever read, because I know, for it, NPOV is mere lip-service and it would just upset me, pointlessly, which it has. But I do hope my points above resonate, somewhat (you've heard it all, I know, but it's the context which matters). And RJII, no offence, but you need to do more research on the subject, you're treating complex theories far to simplistically and reducationistically, and originally. Yet, depite this (and I argue, because of this) unfamiliarity with the material, you are able to highlight some truths which those with greater expertise (ironically, to the left of you) are dogmatically b(l)inded (chained, even) to overlook and ommit. But such glimpses are, of course, not nearly enough. El_C 23:52, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no interest in engaging with polemics with you, especially on such a superficial and antagonistic level. I am disheartened that you opt merely for combativeness rather than addressing the specific items I raised. If you wish to discredit my argument (which I did expend some effort into formulating, though that seems of little consequence to you) in such a dismissive, abrasive manner, well, naturally I find that a dispiriting (but far from an unexpected) response, that remains your prerogative. El_C 11:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1)I agree that capitalism is just an economic system, and that it should be pointed out.
2)I disagree with this point. Inegality exists, and there's no doubt about that, but the numbers you cite are misleading. The billionaires you cite reside mostly in the US, which has a rather extreme version of capitalism (though admittedly sopme claim that it is the purest capitalism in existence). In Europe, inegalities are much lower, especially in the Scandinavian countries. Also, the 2.5 billion poor you cite live mostly in countries which are not capitalist, or which have only become capitalist in recent years. India, for instance, had a planned economy until the early nineties, which might (and in my opinion does) explain the wide-spread poverty that still exists there. China too only embraced capitalism in the last 20 years, and the regions that remain untouched by it (the interior provinces) are, of course, very poor. Africa has certainly the highest levels of poverty, but again almost no African country is truly capitalist. Botswana, Mauritius and South Africa are exceptions, and are also the African countries that managed to develop most. Most other countries have maintained dirigist state-controlled economies, on the Indian model. The lack of infrastructure is also a huge problem in Africa, and one that global capitalism has indeed failed to address. Latin America, finally, has the highest levels of inegality, but again in Latin America interventionist politics have prevented real free markets from emerging. Wealth is concentrated among very few people which have strong links to politicians, which prevents the competition that is necessary in true capitalism (NB: the US also partly have this problem, if you think about the shocking monopoly that Bill Gates' Microsoft is allowed to enjoy).
3)You are right that the article is messy and mixes all the ideas instead of clearly stating which political wings adopt them. Maybe a new paragraph/section should be added, which could explain these different approaches.
4) I don't know the Monthly Review. Is it an American news magazine (I live in Europe, btw). The Economist is certainly right-wing, but usually relatively neutral (at least they give arguments for their positions). In some previous version, I had suggested to add a different paragraph in the intro that would explain the marxist or left-wing definition of capitalism. Somehow, this disappeared in the following edit war. After all, why should the intro only have a single paragraph? It should, i think, have two or three, where the different positions relative to capitalism are explained. On the other hand, I don't think there is any need for the minarchist (what the hell is that anyway?) or anarcho-capitalist versions. I agree with your proposal of 4 views: the marxist, the moderate left, the moderate right, and the libertarians. Concerning your comment on Communism, I maintain my rather aggressive view of it, which I wrote in my previous comment. Fascism also once controlled a big chunk of the world, yet that does not mean that the views of Fascism should be granted the same importance as other, more pacifist, views.
5) I don't think that this article is highly imbalanced, at least if you consider it as a whole. Some sections are clearly POV from a marxist point of view (worst of all, in my opinion, the Distribution of wealth section). Other sections are POV from a right-wing position. Yet if you compare this article to the article on Communism, it is a totally neutral article. Any contribution to the Communism article that tries to criticise it will immediately launch an edit war that will end with numerous counter-criticisms to the initial critique. Any single critique one makes has to be weighed by sources. I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Well, now I took some time too to answer your comment. I would gladly read your reply. Luis rib 12:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
With that preamble out of the way, I'm writing in haste so, regretfully, I will not be able to respond to your substantive comments above as I have to get going in ~5 minutes; even with what I intend to say now, I have to be brief. A word of caution first: in light of the wide-ranged scope of your comments, my response may end up being rather lengthy – perhaps we should continue the discussion on a subpage and link it here as (hopefuly) a must-read (?). Anyway, before I go, If I could quickly respond to/reference your very last sentence/query, which reads:
I would like this to be the case in this article as well, especially, again, concerning the Distribution of wealth section, which claims without citing any sources that a handful of people own half the wealth in the world.
Of course to those billions, disposal income is their wealth, thus, the figures are rather similar when it is measured as such. Note that the following UN study is from 1996, the above from 1998. Since class inequality has risen so much in the last ~decade, I believe my 255 viz. 2.5Bn example is valid, but I wasn't able to trace the source for it on-the-fly, nonetheless, it is still a few hunderd individuals versus 2.x billions, so in a general sense, it makes little difference either way.
So, indeed, not a handful — as I claimed in my first comment, a few hundred. El_C 14:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Negative. I quoted you directly from my Talk page, I never said you lied, I did not mention your view in extension to Marxism, nor have I commented on your version for that matter (only SlR and UM's), except touching on your original research premise that ownership-decisionmaking are defintionally distinct — which is your original research (lifting part of it from the Oxford dictionary to create it and all the bravado in your above comment notwithstanding). You have no reference that speaks of this distintiction outright, as such, you made that stuff up yourself. At any rate, I don't believe you read my comment closely enough, nor do I think that you are sufficiently well-read or have the background to be writing about this issue. And, moreoever, you seem too emotionally immature and not accustomed to dispassionate intellectual debate. Oh, and incidentally, I take exception to your claim/insult that I have nothing better to do than write irrelevant crap, that is false: I do have better things to do! Yes, yes, I'm off to do them (wish me luck!). :) El_C 21:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Argh, no, I apologize for that. Yes, it was a bit unclear, but not that unclear. I misread you because I was writing in haste, I shouldn't have written anything. Hmm, I realize this dosen't reflect well on me. At any rate, got home after a long drive and now I need sleep. Since I'm not fully coherent, maybe I shouldn't be writing this now either (alas, I'll regret it when I wake up – how convinient is that!). Again, sorry for the harsh, misdirected words, indeed, a product of a misunderstanding (on my part). I think I should probably end this comment now and revisit this when I'm more lucid. El_C 12:02, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I am not a liar -- it is telling that when confronted with facts you retreat into personal insults. You have posted this definition in the article, and here on the talk pages -- and talk pages are for discussions about how to improve the article, and explanations for chantes to the article -- you have claimed that this is a marxist definition. Yes, the quote was taken from the talk page -- but so what? It is the "talk page" of the "Capitalism" article!!. Moreover, in this edit summary [36] you explicitly provided "Marx" as a source for your definition, "private ownership of capital." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:12, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
RJII:"Marx does not define the word "capitalism" --just as Adam Smith doesn't. I don't have to do research for a damned thing that I haven't posted in the article. I never posted anything in the article that was labeled as a Marxist definition. You're out of line. RJII 19:15, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) Slrubenstein:I am quoting you right here: "...the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production." So yes, you obviously have posted something that you yourself labeled a "Marxist definition." The problem is, your Marxist definition is wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC) RHII:You're a liar. That was taken from the Talk page. That was never posted to the article. Again, I find over and over you to be a reprehensible disingenuous individual who is a complete waste of time to have a discussion with. So, this concludes my wasting my time talking to you. I forget that I had come to that conclusion before. RJII 19:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Respond if you want, but I'm not going to respond to you. As I said, you are a waste of time for me to converse with. Find someone else to get into petty disputes with. And adjust your behavior. It is not civil to lie about fellow editors. RJII 00:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is a system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries and replaced feudalism and mercantilism. There are many, sometimes contradictory, theories and definitions of capitalism that developed in the 19th century, in the context of the industrial revolution, and in the 20th century, in the context of the Cold War. Most definitions of capitalism include some combination of the following: the right of individuals, or groups of individuals to act as corporations with distinct legal personality, to own and trade private property including capital goods and land in a competitive environment in the form of a free or relatively free market, where price and wages are determined by supply and demand, and where there is investment for profit, with risks being assumed by the investors and investment decisions being made privately; the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; explicit and implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
I put "labor" back in the first paragraph. There is no doubt that in capitalist economies labor is a commodity -- economists talk about labor markets all the time, and all big business have offices of "human resources." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct -- I should have said "labor power." Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please note, too, that the first paragraph is not a definition of capitalism but a list of elements that are found in various definitions of capitalism. Some definitions do not include a concept of "labor-power" but some do. the same can be said for other elements. NPOV requires as inclusive a list as possible. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
NPOV does not require wrong facts to be included. Labour power cannot be owned, therefore it is not a good. It's as easy as that. Also, the sentence talks about capital goods, which are in exact opposition to labour power. The previous intro already states that wages are determined by supply and demand. I think that's clear enough. Luis rib 21:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rand was a seminal figure in putting forward capitalism as an ideology that was defensible on moral grounds rather than just practical grounds. She was influential beyond just those roids that called themselves objectivists, and her works were the second only to the bible in sale for many years. In a sense she helped to bring capitalism "out of the closet", and should be given her due. I was a bit surprised to find only an external link reference. There was one reference to Milton Friedman that I spotted that was also a natural place to include her and perhaps her one time associate, Greenspan.-- Silverback 12:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There can be only two solutions:
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As the revert war continues, would this do as a compromise?
Capitalism, also known as the free market, is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. It is typically regarded as comprising the following: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties. SlimVirgin 15:14, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Which part(s) of my compromise constitute original research, would you say? SlimVirgin 15:19, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism' is an economic or social system typically regarded as being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market.
Silverback, your intro is very definitely OR. I'd revert, but now have no idea which version to revert to. RJII, what is wrong, in your view, with the capitalism arose sentence? It's quite factual. There's no need to say privately or corporately owned, because we later say what a corporation is. Also your version makes no mention of the state's protection of property rights which is crucial. And you don't say what a corporation is. And capitalism isn't a social system; it's an economic system. I'm not sure what "economic and social system" means in this context. And the means of production are mostly privately owned. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone on this page have a degree in economics or a closely related subject? Because, if so, I think we should be guided by that person. SlimVirgin 15:58, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
I've left a note for an editor who has a degree in economics, but he may not have time to help out. Ultramarine, what would your introduction be, if you could write whatever you wanted (bearing in mind NPOV and NOR)? SlimVirgin 16:12, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
As can been seen in definitions of capitalism, there are numerous and sometimes contradictory definitions by different authorities. In the introduction to this article there has been numerous attempts to construct a new definition. These are all original research. Saying that the new definition reflect "most" of the authoritative definitions is inevitable subject to POV regarding which definitions to include and thus original research. There is no agreement on this among economists and other scientists. This is an active area of research and and a correct solution would be an immediate Nobel prize. So it is preposterous that anyone here should write a new definition. There can be only two solutions (as is also shown by relentless edit wars regarding this new defintion):
1: No definition, just a statement referring to definitions of capitalism.
2: A summary allowing all the elements from authoritative definitions published elsewhere. Ultramarine 14:47, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There are more than 2 solutions. Open your mind. 3. Supply the conditions of capitalism that are presented in the typical definitions of capitalism out there. Mention that there are other definitions if you want, from various malcontent academics for example, but that this represents the conditions stated in the typical, popular, definitions. The typical definitions are found in the most popular respected dictionaries out there. RJII 16:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
4. Another solution is to let the advocates of capitalism write the intro, as long as they don't consume too much real estate, and give the others their due, in the rest of the article. No strawman definitions in the intro.-- Silverback 16:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is an example that lists the elements of all defintions:
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
the right of individuals to own, and trade private property including capital goods; the right of groups of individuals to act as a corporation with distinct legal personality and responsibility; the strong protection of these rights; the existence of an strong enforcement of contractual agreements and peaceful settlements of disagrements by a third party; a free or relatively free market where price is determined by supply and demand; private investment for profit with the risk of loss of the investment; competition for this profit; following feudalism; today dominant in the Western world; today not present in a pure form but only partially in the current "mixed economy"; never achieved in its pure form; in anarcho-capitalist theory, peaceful, voluntary exchange which is fully realized only without a state; in marxist theory, exploitation of workers by the owners of capital; in minarchist theory, the role of government is limited mostly to protecting economic liberty and private property." Ultramarine 16:36, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That looks good. It's quite similar to this version [37], which I think is Slrubenstein's. SlimVirgin 16:39, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
"The many and sometimes contradictory definitions of capitalism use some combination of the following statements:
The marxist definition is not a good faith definition, it is a strawman, intended to be dismissive or a criticism. The way you can tell, is to check the marxist definition of communism. Is it the "exploitation of workers by fellow workers" or the "exploitation of workers by the state". Obviously, exploitation is intended to be pejorative rather than informative.-- Silverback 16:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Das Kapital is one of the most important or definitive descriptions of capitalism. It's appropriate to mention Marx in the introduction. SlimVirgin 16:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
It is ridiculous to return to the bullet point version. Ultramarine's version is inferior to the two versions we were discussing, so we should forget about it. Also, as I mentioned in my comment to El C, we could have two intro paragraphs, one being the definition part (i.e. one of the two we were considering, or modifications of those), followed by a paragraph explaining the diverging definitions by marxists and libertarians. Luis rib 16:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Influential non-academics like Rand and Marx are also important. Neither did much publishing in peer reviewed journals. Important politicians are also good sources. -- Silverback 18:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Academic and non-academic research and philosophy from noteable authors commonly contain disparate opinions on how capitalism should best be defined or characterized. However, "capitalism," as defined in the most widely-disseminated and consulted dictionaries, is typically described as an economic system being comprised of the following conditions: 1) The " means of production" or capital are privately or corporately owned and operated in order to obtain a profit. 2) Investment, distribution, and production decisions are privately determined. 3) Prices are determined by trades that occur in a free or relatively- free market. RJII 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What about something like the beginning of this article (but written in a more NPOV version): http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch9.asp Luis rib 18:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This quote is from Dr. John Hospers, who was head of the Dept. of Philosophy at USC at the time.-- Silverback 18:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another term associated with laissez faire is capitalism. This again is a term of indefinite meaning depending upon who uses it. It is employed by the enemies of the American system for purposes of slur. -- Herbert Hoover
Capitalism is a system of exchangable private-property rights in goods and services, with the central government, protecting and enforcing these rights. Private-property rights, in turn, can be defined as the rights of owners to choose the use of their goods and resources (including labor and time) as they see fit. -- "Exchange and Production" by Alchian & Allen.
-- Silverback 19:26, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless, in most modern capitalist economies the State attempts to maintain a certain degree of economic planning (using such tools as allowing the country's central bank to set base interest rates) in order to discourage economic instability and provide greater longer-term direction (disputed — see talk page).
Some economists would argue that instability is the effect of government manipulation of the money supply which causes intertemporal distortions in the interest rate and deviations from the "natural" rate of interest, resulting in a misallocation of capital resulting in business "cycles". Central banks are used to borrow money on behalf of the populace or future generations without their consent, because the debt of a State must eventually be paid off by its citizens; this method of finance also hides the true cost of government spending, for with taxation the participants know how much is being used, but with inflation these costs are spread unevenly throughtout the economy and cause the phenomenon of inflation.
RJII, the version preferred by User:JoshG, User:JMaxwell and myself is a little more encyclopedic than the version you keep reverting to, in my view. If you and Ultramarine feel there's material missing from it, would it not make more sense to add a second paragraph containing that material, rather than to revert continually? I don't know why you feel there's no evidence to support the edit that capitalism arose out of feudalism and mercantilism: it's in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you want a reference, so it shouldn't be deleted. You might also want to be careful that you don't violate 3RR, as this isn't worth getting blocked for. SlimVirgin 15:00, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ultramarine, I was under the impression you supported RJII's latest version. Here's the one I support: it's not what I'd write left to my own devices, but I'm happy with it as a compromise. If you agree, there's no reason to allow this other version to constantly be reverted to. RJII, I wasn't being patronizing and I'm sorry it sounded that way. I do actually have a genuine concern not to see you blocked. SlimVirgin 15:28, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I came across this quote from Jimbo Wales the other day, and it seems particularly apt regarding an article on capitalism. SlimVirgin 16:06, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
I frequently counsel people who are getting frustrated about an edit war to think about someone who lives without clean drinking water, without any proper means of education, and how our work might someday help that person. It puts flamewars into some perspective, I think. — Jimbo Wales [41]
That would be an unusual interpretation of the quote. Not everyone finds it fun. Some find it quite upsetting, and it's almost never good for articles; and we're here to write articles. SlimVirgin 16:46, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Perhaps. But don't forget that's a process that invariably has casualties. There are less hazardous ways. SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a dictionary def that you would probably argue includes unnecessary detail:
Mode of socio-economic organization in which a class of entrepeneurs and entrepeneurial institutions provide the capital with which businesses produce goods and services and employ workers. In return the capitalist extracts profits from the goods created. Capitalism is frequently seen as the embodiment of the market economy, and hence may result in the optimum distribution of scarce resources, with a resulting improvement for all; this optimism is countered by pointing to the opportunity for exploitation inherent in the system. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, ed. Simon Blackburn, 1996 SlimVirgin 19:41, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
LOL! I'm starting to think we need a definition of dictionary, and a definition of definition. Someone find us a meta-dictionary please. ;-) I only offered the above as an illustration of how dictionary definitions vary. Anyway, I'm glad to see that Silverback is doing some real research. Ultramarine, you should read Friedman, I'll read Adam Smith, and as a punishment, RJII can be assigned Das Kapital. ;-) SlimVirgin 20:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
Some people want the intro to say that capitalism is typically defined as a system where the "predominate" or "most" of the means of production are privately owned. But, that's not a typical definition of capitalism. There is no such qualifier in the typical definitions of capitalism. So, that's "original research" --a violation of Wikipedia policy. I wouldn't ordinarly be such a stickler but that seems to be the attitude around here, and that claim has been used against me. RJII 16:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Please provide a source or sources showing that the EB is an atypical definition. Also, a mention of what capitalism replaced and arose out of IS part of the description. At some point, this discussion of what a definition is has to stop. Wikipedia intros are supposed to follow the upside pyramid to some extent and offer a brief overview of the subject, not restrict themselves to dictionary definitions. I've restored the consensus introduction, and am pasting it below. If you want to make changes, please make them on this talk page, and then discuss them, instead of continually reverting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 16:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, replacing feudalism, and evolving out of mercantilism. There is some debate regarding the exact definition [44] of capitalism, but most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics: 1) most of the means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties.
"most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ... " SlimVirgin 17:06, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Please read what it says. "Most definitions include at least some of the following characteristics ..." That doesn't mean that most include all of the following. I didn't substitute typical with most. What point are you trying to make here? Are you saying that e.g. the UK under Margaret Thatcher (the most capitalist of British prime ministers) did not have a capitalist economy because the state retained ownership of a few industries? SlimVirgin 17:16, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you're talking about. Please be explicit, and please note that I have no POV when it comes to finding a description of capitalism. Regarding your recent edit of the words "correct definition," there is no such thing as a "correct" definition in a situation like this. Precise, agreed, or exact definition would all work better. Also, for the record, I note that you're using misleading edit summaries, e.g. calling the last edit "remove quote marks," when in fact you made a partial revert. [45]. I'm happy to debate this issue with you, but I will not get into a fight about it, or have meta-discussions about what the word "definition" means. SlimVirgin 17:26, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
I dispute this unqualified assertion. Noteable theorists do not agree. For example, Rand says that capitalism has yet to exist, hence the title of her book "The Unknown Ideal." Noam Chomsky says that capitalism does not exist. As far as the replacing feudalism statement, Oppenhemier says that capitalism is a blending of feudalism and markets. RJII 17:28, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the authorities (like Smith, Marx, Greenspan, DeSoto, Rand) consider capitalism to have evolved from feodalism and rely on state protection. In fact, probably everyone except anarcho-capitalists. Their minority view should not dominate the article. Ultramarine 17:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of this could be resolved if the definition is limited to the content of the "typical" definition. It's the only way I know of to minimize POV. RJII 17:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you write it here for discussion, but please note that Chomsky is not an authoritative source. Also, it would help to expand a little, in a scholarly way, rather than just saying "according to some, e.g. Rand, capitalism has never existed." SlimVirgin 17:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Changing the statement to this should suit Rand and Oppenheimer: "Capitalism is an economic system that rose to dominance in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, evolving out of feodalism and mercantilism, although some argue that there has never been a completely pure form" Ultramarine 18:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Note, I have added some quotations from Encarta Referenece Libarary to definitions of capitalism since RJII asked for more sources. Ultramarine 18:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How about this: "Capitalism is an economic system that evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism" Ultramarine 18:35, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Tried out new formulation. Maybe it's more consensual. Luis rib 18:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Removed industrial revolution, it emerged from capitalism, not from feodalism, according to every source I have read. Suggest this:
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [46] of capitalism, but most definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, except point 7), which is not really a definiton. I would finish the sentence after point 6). Then continue with: It evolved out of.... Luis rib 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
New suggestion (changed to mainstream definitions) And definitions can included history, see for example MW definition of "bronze age":
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [47] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include following characteristics: 1) The means of production or capital are privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private-property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feodalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 18:51, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I personnally prefer the initial version (i.e. the one RJ does not like), where feudalism is mentioned in the first or last sentence, but is not part of the enumeration of definitions. But I won't revert it; it's a minor, rather stylistic point, and definitely not worth an edit war. Luis rib 19:02, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.3 Wikify, grammar, mostly privately owned, means of production like capital. Not all of mainstream definitions include feudalism so it should be mentioned in the list. Otherwise there is an impression that all definitions include this.
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [48] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) The means of production like capital are mostly privately owned, and are operated for profit; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private- property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
V 0.4 Removed means of productions as Capital should be enough, removed duplicate mentioning of profit
Capitalism is an economic system. There is some debate regarding the correct definition [49] of capitalism, but the mainstream definitions include the following characteristics: 1) Capital is mostly privately owned; 2) production decisions, prices, and wages are determined by market forces; (3) groups of individuals have the right to act as corporations with distinct legal personality; (4) there is investment for profit, with investment decisions being made privately, and with risks being assumed by the investors; (5) the state is relied upon to protect private property rights; and (6) explicit or implicit contractual obligations are adjudicated by the state or contractually specified third parties; (7) evolved out of feudalism and mercantilism. Ultramarine 19:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This is a B.S. statement meant to slide POV in. Why list characteristics that are not in most definitions. One could list an infinite number of characteristics that are not included in most definitions. "Some of" needs to be deleted. RJII 19:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)