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The correct translation of Herzen's quatation would be "Their officer complained that one third had already died" ("Беда да и только, треть осталась на дороге" -- "Былое и думы", My Past and Thoughts, end of Chapter 13). Not "two thirds" as in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.80.143 ( talk • contribs)
Cantonists' exploits are extwncively doc'ed in YPS. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galassi ( talk • contribs) 11:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Is there a proof for this: "(the unconverted could not be promoted above the rank of lieutenant, though there were some exceptions, in which the unconverted reached the rank of colonel)." This contradicts [1]. Thanks. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
If you're not familiar with his work, it's unfair of you to dismiss it as an unfair source. In any case, I owe an apology. I see that that citation was not in fact from the author, but from an explanatory note of the translator. In any case, I'm waiting for explanation for why the source (not the content of the specific quote) is inherently unreliable, based on wiki rules. If no one is forthcoming, then I will post the info. I have in this work concerning the numerous activities of the Shneersons and their followers in countering the cantonist edict. Yehoishophot Oliver 04:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
He did write on theology, but that's irrelevant. He made a point of transmitting a great deal of history with accuracy, and if you don't know that, it only shows that you haven't studied his works. It's absurd to suggest that someone who writes on theology can't write on history, especially history that his great-grandfather Menachem Mendel Schneersohn was directly involved in (do you deny that?), and he had access to records and first-hand accounts from witnesses. Yehoishophot Oliver 11:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
No source for precluding this source was forthcoming, so I've posted something from it. This is a published source from someone who transmitted a vast amount of historical information, and declared the importance of always transmitting a story accurately, and never embellishing it. And if this info. is not found in other sources, there's a simple explanation: this work was done under a veil of strict secrecy. Yehoishophot Oliver 16:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This seems disparaging. Shall we say that often it relied on facts as well? Obviously the policy caused a lot of suffering. Let's try to stick to NPOV. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 20:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There were no major wars from 1827 to the Crimean. So the survival rate was "optimistic". Galassi 21:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot unfounded myths, such as drowning in front of the Tsar, mass baptisms in rivers, coersion by torture etc., etc. Galassi 22:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
However NO ONE was happy in cantonist schools. Galassi 03:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please avoid the loaded terms "death marches" here. No one was targetting to kill or otherwise make suffer these poor boys. You are reading with bias what you want from the quotation. In fact the officer quoted by Herzen feels bad for them: "Беда да и только", meaning, "what a pity". you should have read Nikolay Pomyalovsky, "Seminary Sketches" Очерки бурсы, about the miserable life of students in Orthodox religion, future priests, of the comparable age. You fail to acknowledge that the fate of Russian peasants was hardly better. You should have read more of contemporary literature, and you would probably understand why Bolsheviks succeeded: it was no because they were nasty efficient villains: it was the life in Russia was absolutely miserable for 95% of population. `' mikka 22:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Herzl Yankl Tsam seems notable enough to deserve an article. According to Zvi Gitelman, published by Indiana UP: "Tsam appears to have been the only Jewish officer in the Tsarist army in the nineteenth century." I've changed the caption correspondingly. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 11:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
And what the hell did Gitelman mean by "full captain"? Anyway the rank of штабс-капитан was preceded by прапорщик, аnother full officer rank. Lute88 17:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Эта книга - о встрече традиционной еврейской общины и русской армии, о социально-политических и духовных обстоятельствах этой встречи, а также о её последствиях. Автор прослеживает историю взаимоотношений военного ведомства с евреями России и Царства Польского от первого еврейского рекрутского набора 1827 г. вплоть до начала Первой мировой войны. Исследователь рассматривает военную и национальную проблематику в широком социокультурном контексте: литературные образы еврейских солдат в русской армии, отношение военных министров и полковых командиров к этническим меньшинствам, быт воспитанников в кантонистских батальонах, думские дебаты и военные баталии. В книге использован богатейший документальный материал из российских и зарубежных архивов. ОГЛАВЛЕНИЕ От автора 7 Тема и метод 9
И ПОСЛЕ ПРОВЕДЕНИЯ РЕКРУТЧИНЫ 19 Евреи России накануне призыва 1827 года 22 Рекрутчина: рождение замысла 31 Русская армия накануне призыва 1827 года 34 Община против рекрутчины 37 Рекрутский Устав 43 Рекрутчина в переводе на еврейский 46 Реакция на Устав 50 Николаевские наборы и кагалы 53 Община - общество - армия: новые веяния 59 Результаты встречи 66 Выводы 69
«Обряды веры» 74 Закон и праксис 79 Раввины-капелланы 82 Солдатские молельни 86 Солдатские общины 90 Общества еврейского самоуправления 93 Еврейское образование солдатских детей 105 Выводы 109
СУДЬБА ЕВРЕЙСКИХ КАНТОНИСТОВ 111 Миссионерский замысел 116 Миссионерская компания и её результаты 118 Кантонисты из евреев среди товарищей по оружию 138 Религиозный бунт в войсках 149 Конец института военных кантонистов 164 Результат кантонистского эксперимента 167
ЧИНЫ, ВОЕННАЯ РЕФОРМА И АРМЕЙСКАЯ СТАТИСТИКА 173 Военная реформа и устав всесословной воинской повинности 176 Военная статистика 182 Уклонение от службы: коллективное преступление русских евреев 186 Профессиональное распределение еврейских солдат 196 Физические данные еврейского солдата 204 Еврейские деньги и солдатский быт 209 Котёл кошерный и котёл ротный 213 Линия поведения еврейского солдата 217 Семейное положение 220 Преступность среди нижних чинов - евреев 224 Выводы 237
Северо-западные военные округа: Бунд и армия 244 Киевский военный округ: военные комитеты социалистов-революционеров (СР) 261 Петербургский военный округ: военные комитеты СД 268 Беспартийный мятеж 278 Меж двух огней 287 Выводы 290
ВОЕННОЕ МИНИСТЕРСТВО И РУССКАЯ УЛЬТРАПРАВАЯ 295 Круг чтения военной бюрократии: три источника 300 Интендантский департамент против товарищества Грегера, Горвица и Когана 311 «Черта осёдлости» в армии и её создатель 319 Политики против прагматиков 324 Слово и дело 332 «Союз русского народа» в армии 336 Вокруг нового Устава 1912 года 344 Попытка окончательного решения 353 Выводы 354
СОЛДАТА В РУССКОЙ ЛИТЕРАТУРЕ 357 Философ-просветитель в солдатской шинели 361 Жертва маскильской критики 370 Крест шею не тянет 377 Ловчики из Гете 384 Врачу, исцелися сам 387 О сопротивлении злу искусством 392 Память и стиль 396 Одиссей среди кентавров 399 Выводы 409
I have removed the 1949 Schneerson quote. It has no basis in reality, according to professional historians........ Galassi 09:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Are these based on a book that has not yet been published? Shlomke 18:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Galassi, you keep putting in information which is not at all in the source (at least the the Enlish version which is what we should use here). I don't see anywhere on the two pages Petrovsky discuses the Chabad work the information you keep putting in. Yet you keep claiming it's "per source". This seems to be your own original research. Forthermore, you are removing information that is sourced claiming it's BS, when in fact this is what is writen in footnote 45. I am going to have to revert you again. Please explain you edits in the future. Shlomke ( talk) 00:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
"цитируемый нами источник изрядно искажает и безусловно модернизирует факты. Закон о рекрутчине касался всех евреев России, далеко не только детей — будущих кантонистов. "Общество воскрешения из мертвых" как форма еврейского самоуправления не упоминается ни в одном из известных нам источников по еврейской социальной истории в целом и по истории еврейского самоуправления в частности. Среди сотен записных книг (пинкасим) восточноевропейских еврейских обществ последних трех столетий нет ни намека на подобный социальный институт. Исключительный приоритет хабад-любавичских хасидов в организации добровольных обществ для еврейских солдат также следует считать преувеличением, и тем более им является свойственная XX, а не XIX в. форма подпольной религиозной работы. Тем не менее, даже из такого малонадежного источника следует, что в армии существовали те или иные формы еврейского самоуправления." Galassi ( talk) 17:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Re reliability of Tz.Tz. here's another relevant paragraph: "Опубликованная на иврите и по-английски в 1950-х гг., в разгар возрождения американского хасидизма, книга "The Tzemach Tzedek and the Haskala Movement in Russia", написанная главой движения ХАБАД Йосэфом Ицхаком Шнеерсоном, представляла ХАБАД едва ли единственным еврейским религиозным движением, поддержавшим российское еврейство в страшные годы рекрутчины, "мрачного времени" Николая I. Свидетельства этой книги слишком важны, чтобы оставить их без внимания, и слишком односторонни, чтобы принять их за исторически достоверные. Характерные для этой книги упоминания подпольной, тайной деятельности ХАБАДа — наряду с представлением автора о бесспорно доминирующем положении этой ветви хасидизма в русско-еврейской общине, скорей соответствуют реалиям 1920-х гг, а не XIX в. Во второй четверти девятнадцатого века ХАБАД в целом и его лидер, рабби Менахем Мендель Шнеерсон (Цемах Цедек), представляли собой не более чем одну из нескольких влиятельных и авторитетных групп русского еврейства. Но в 1950-е гг. ХАБАД пытался представить себя американскому еврейству в качестве единственного полномочного представителя ашкеназского еврейства Восточной Европы — отсюда и патерналистский тон книги, и не соответствующее исторической реальности выпячивание роли ХАБАДа в жизни русского еврейства." Galassi ( talk) 20:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
You must provide a RELIABLE source to anything contrary. Galassi ( talk) 20:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. If I understand the above discussion correctly, this Petrovsky-Stern character, whoever he is, doubts the account in Admor HaTzemach Tzedek uTnuas haHaskoloh because the term Chevra Techiyas Hameisim is somehow "too modern" for the 19th century and because this committee is not to be found in the minutes of the kehilos?!!! What stupid arguments. What great philological advance does he think occurred in the century between the events and RJIS's book, that would have made such a title more likely in the mid-20th century than in the mid-19th? And why would he even expect a criminal conspiracy, whose members faced execution for treason if caught, to be listed in the official records of the kehillos, especially since, as the article records, the kehillos were themselves complicit in sending these poor boys into slavery in the first place, and would surely inform on the chevra if they knew of its existence? RJIS's book is by definition a reliable source, and he was certainly in a better position than anybody else, including YPS, to know about this committee and its work; it is very likely that he had access to secret records of its work, and that he personally knew people who had been involved in it. YPS has nothing beyond the fact that he had never heard of it. I don't see why he's even mentioned, or why this is in "Literary references" rather than "Strains within the Jewish community", or even its own section "Rescue efforts". -- Zsero ( talk) 03:28, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Galassi has gone back to his reverts and insults. Another case of this and I'll have to post on wp:ani. In this specific case he brings a review of a book to source statements that are not treated in the review. Also he uses this same review to remove the verify credibility tag, which came to question the credibility of the book, not its factual existence. Debresser ( talk) 12:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
As an alternative to blocking or topic-banning both editors (Galassi and Debresser) involved in the long slow revert-war over those source taggings, I am taking out the whole passage about Schneerson, which to my mind has something rather coatrack-ish and is only of limited relevance to the overall topic anyway. This just as an interim stopgap solution. Feel free to reinsert if you think there's consensus for it, but be warned that any further edit-warring over it will then be met with sanctions (under the "Digwuren" discretionary sanctions rules)
Both Debresser and, to a lesser extent, Galassi are warned against abusing the {{ Verify credibility}} tag. To Debresser, about tagging the Petrovski-Shtern source: there seems to be no serious argument disputing the status of that book as technically a "reliable source" in the sense of WP:V. There is also no argument disputing that the statements ascribed to P.-Sh. were correctly summarised and that P.-Sh. actually claimed what our article said he claimed. These claims were also correctly framed and attributed to P.-Sh.'s as his opinions, rather than being stated as simple facts in the article. Therefore, there is nothing problematic here. The only issue you seem to have with this source is that you as an editor happen to disagree with it; this, however, is utterly irrelevant, since Wikipedia is about "verifiability, not truth". Your edit-warring over this tag was disruptive and a breach of the principles of WP:V. – To Galassi and his attempt at tagging the Schneerson book with that "credibility" tag: this is patently unnecessary, since the doubts about the factual correctness of the book were already covered in the text itself, by citing P.-Sh. If the article itself describes these doubts, then of course an additional tagging is redundant.
Links to this edit war will be filed as evidence in the current Arbcom case to which Debresser is a party. Debresser is advised he should be prepared to see the arbitrators taking a rather dim view of this incident. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
A note to Debresser: there was no requirement to supply children into service. It was left to entirely to qahals to decide who goes into service, and they were given the discretion to supply children.-- Galassi ( talk) 16:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
In this edit, some information was removed from the "Statistics" section, as containing information from the wrong century. According to this article, there were cantonists in the 19th century also, so I fail to understand why this is the "wrong century". I will restore this for now, being that it is sourced information from a relevant source, but will not object to good faith removal of the statement, if it turns out I misunderstand something here. Debresser ( talk) 09:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering if anybody out there would give your support for the development of a new section about the situation in Poland specifically. I would gladly look into the idea, but only if there was a sense of approval from the members of our community, otherwise I'm not interested in dealing with blanket-reverts. Poeticbent talk 19:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
The last source in the bibliography traces cantonists to 1917. The article cuts off in the middle of the 1850s. This article needs to be doubled to deal with changes after Alexander. It is also important to notice that cantonists played an important role in the Mendel Beilis trial of 1913. One witness had the right of residence anywhere as a cantonist who had served in 1905, and the Kiev government deliberately created a paper snafu that had a role in the trial. Another cantonist became a member of the Russian Church hierarchy and was drafted to support the ritual murder charge in court since everybody else in the church refused. Read A.S. Tager on the ldn-knigi site. If you don't know Russian, say so. I'm translating the Beilis transcript now, that's how I know these things, and I can translate Tager next year once I recover. 108.56.212.179 ( talk) 12:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
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Although no way identical nor equivalents, I feel there are some parallels in that all three are instances of Russian armed forced providing military education to youths. So I think they should be added to the See also. 79.68.142.24 ( talk) 22:20, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
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The correct translation of Herzen's quatation would be "Their officer complained that one third had already died" ("Беда да и только, треть осталась на дороге" -- "Былое и думы", My Past and Thoughts, end of Chapter 13). Not "two thirds" as in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.80.143 ( talk • contribs)
Cantonists' exploits are extwncively doc'ed in YPS. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galassi ( talk • contribs) 11:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Is there a proof for this: "(the unconverted could not be promoted above the rank of lieutenant, though there were some exceptions, in which the unconverted reached the rank of colonel)." This contradicts [1]. Thanks. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
If you're not familiar with his work, it's unfair of you to dismiss it as an unfair source. In any case, I owe an apology. I see that that citation was not in fact from the author, but from an explanatory note of the translator. In any case, I'm waiting for explanation for why the source (not the content of the specific quote) is inherently unreliable, based on wiki rules. If no one is forthcoming, then I will post the info. I have in this work concerning the numerous activities of the Shneersons and their followers in countering the cantonist edict. Yehoishophot Oliver 04:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
He did write on theology, but that's irrelevant. He made a point of transmitting a great deal of history with accuracy, and if you don't know that, it only shows that you haven't studied his works. It's absurd to suggest that someone who writes on theology can't write on history, especially history that his great-grandfather Menachem Mendel Schneersohn was directly involved in (do you deny that?), and he had access to records and first-hand accounts from witnesses. Yehoishophot Oliver 11:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
No source for precluding this source was forthcoming, so I've posted something from it. This is a published source from someone who transmitted a vast amount of historical information, and declared the importance of always transmitting a story accurately, and never embellishing it. And if this info. is not found in other sources, there's a simple explanation: this work was done under a veil of strict secrecy. Yehoishophot Oliver 16:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This seems disparaging. Shall we say that often it relied on facts as well? Obviously the policy caused a lot of suffering. Let's try to stick to NPOV. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 20:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There were no major wars from 1827 to the Crimean. So the survival rate was "optimistic". Galassi 21:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot unfounded myths, such as drowning in front of the Tsar, mass baptisms in rivers, coersion by torture etc., etc. Galassi 22:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
However NO ONE was happy in cantonist schools. Galassi 03:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please avoid the loaded terms "death marches" here. No one was targetting to kill or otherwise make suffer these poor boys. You are reading with bias what you want from the quotation. In fact the officer quoted by Herzen feels bad for them: "Беда да и только", meaning, "what a pity". you should have read Nikolay Pomyalovsky, "Seminary Sketches" Очерки бурсы, about the miserable life of students in Orthodox religion, future priests, of the comparable age. You fail to acknowledge that the fate of Russian peasants was hardly better. You should have read more of contemporary literature, and you would probably understand why Bolsheviks succeeded: it was no because they were nasty efficient villains: it was the life in Russia was absolutely miserable for 95% of population. `' mikka 22:45, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Herzl Yankl Tsam seems notable enough to deserve an article. According to Zvi Gitelman, published by Indiana UP: "Tsam appears to have been the only Jewish officer in the Tsarist army in the nineteenth century." I've changed the caption correspondingly. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 11:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
And what the hell did Gitelman mean by "full captain"? Anyway the rank of штабс-капитан was preceded by прапорщик, аnother full officer rank. Lute88 17:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Эта книга - о встрече традиционной еврейской общины и русской армии, о социально-политических и духовных обстоятельствах этой встречи, а также о её последствиях. Автор прослеживает историю взаимоотношений военного ведомства с евреями России и Царства Польского от первого еврейского рекрутского набора 1827 г. вплоть до начала Первой мировой войны. Исследователь рассматривает военную и национальную проблематику в широком социокультурном контексте: литературные образы еврейских солдат в русской армии, отношение военных министров и полковых командиров к этническим меньшинствам, быт воспитанников в кантонистских батальонах, думские дебаты и военные баталии. В книге использован богатейший документальный материал из российских и зарубежных архивов. ОГЛАВЛЕНИЕ От автора 7 Тема и метод 9
И ПОСЛЕ ПРОВЕДЕНИЯ РЕКРУТЧИНЫ 19 Евреи России накануне призыва 1827 года 22 Рекрутчина: рождение замысла 31 Русская армия накануне призыва 1827 года 34 Община против рекрутчины 37 Рекрутский Устав 43 Рекрутчина в переводе на еврейский 46 Реакция на Устав 50 Николаевские наборы и кагалы 53 Община - общество - армия: новые веяния 59 Результаты встречи 66 Выводы 69
«Обряды веры» 74 Закон и праксис 79 Раввины-капелланы 82 Солдатские молельни 86 Солдатские общины 90 Общества еврейского самоуправления 93 Еврейское образование солдатских детей 105 Выводы 109
СУДЬБА ЕВРЕЙСКИХ КАНТОНИСТОВ 111 Миссионерский замысел 116 Миссионерская компания и её результаты 118 Кантонисты из евреев среди товарищей по оружию 138 Религиозный бунт в войсках 149 Конец института военных кантонистов 164 Результат кантонистского эксперимента 167
ЧИНЫ, ВОЕННАЯ РЕФОРМА И АРМЕЙСКАЯ СТАТИСТИКА 173 Военная реформа и устав всесословной воинской повинности 176 Военная статистика 182 Уклонение от службы: коллективное преступление русских евреев 186 Профессиональное распределение еврейских солдат 196 Физические данные еврейского солдата 204 Еврейские деньги и солдатский быт 209 Котёл кошерный и котёл ротный 213 Линия поведения еврейского солдата 217 Семейное положение 220 Преступность среди нижних чинов - евреев 224 Выводы 237
Северо-западные военные округа: Бунд и армия 244 Киевский военный округ: военные комитеты социалистов-революционеров (СР) 261 Петербургский военный округ: военные комитеты СД 268 Беспартийный мятеж 278 Меж двух огней 287 Выводы 290
ВОЕННОЕ МИНИСТЕРСТВО И РУССКАЯ УЛЬТРАПРАВАЯ 295 Круг чтения военной бюрократии: три источника 300 Интендантский департамент против товарищества Грегера, Горвица и Когана 311 «Черта осёдлости» в армии и её создатель 319 Политики против прагматиков 324 Слово и дело 332 «Союз русского народа» в армии 336 Вокруг нового Устава 1912 года 344 Попытка окончательного решения 353 Выводы 354
СОЛДАТА В РУССКОЙ ЛИТЕРАТУРЕ 357 Философ-просветитель в солдатской шинели 361 Жертва маскильской критики 370 Крест шею не тянет 377 Ловчики из Гете 384 Врачу, исцелися сам 387 О сопротивлении злу искусством 392 Память и стиль 396 Одиссей среди кентавров 399 Выводы 409
I have removed the 1949 Schneerson quote. It has no basis in reality, according to professional historians........ Galassi 09:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Are these based on a book that has not yet been published? Shlomke 18:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Galassi, you keep putting in information which is not at all in the source (at least the the Enlish version which is what we should use here). I don't see anywhere on the two pages Petrovsky discuses the Chabad work the information you keep putting in. Yet you keep claiming it's "per source". This seems to be your own original research. Forthermore, you are removing information that is sourced claiming it's BS, when in fact this is what is writen in footnote 45. I am going to have to revert you again. Please explain you edits in the future. Shlomke ( talk) 00:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
"цитируемый нами источник изрядно искажает и безусловно модернизирует факты. Закон о рекрутчине касался всех евреев России, далеко не только детей — будущих кантонистов. "Общество воскрешения из мертвых" как форма еврейского самоуправления не упоминается ни в одном из известных нам источников по еврейской социальной истории в целом и по истории еврейского самоуправления в частности. Среди сотен записных книг (пинкасим) восточноевропейских еврейских обществ последних трех столетий нет ни намека на подобный социальный институт. Исключительный приоритет хабад-любавичских хасидов в организации добровольных обществ для еврейских солдат также следует считать преувеличением, и тем более им является свойственная XX, а не XIX в. форма подпольной религиозной работы. Тем не менее, даже из такого малонадежного источника следует, что в армии существовали те или иные формы еврейского самоуправления." Galassi ( talk) 17:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Re reliability of Tz.Tz. here's another relevant paragraph: "Опубликованная на иврите и по-английски в 1950-х гг., в разгар возрождения американского хасидизма, книга "The Tzemach Tzedek and the Haskala Movement in Russia", написанная главой движения ХАБАД Йосэфом Ицхаком Шнеерсоном, представляла ХАБАД едва ли единственным еврейским религиозным движением, поддержавшим российское еврейство в страшные годы рекрутчины, "мрачного времени" Николая I. Свидетельства этой книги слишком важны, чтобы оставить их без внимания, и слишком односторонни, чтобы принять их за исторически достоверные. Характерные для этой книги упоминания подпольной, тайной деятельности ХАБАДа — наряду с представлением автора о бесспорно доминирующем положении этой ветви хасидизма в русско-еврейской общине, скорей соответствуют реалиям 1920-х гг, а не XIX в. Во второй четверти девятнадцатого века ХАБАД в целом и его лидер, рабби Менахем Мендель Шнеерсон (Цемах Цедек), представляли собой не более чем одну из нескольких влиятельных и авторитетных групп русского еврейства. Но в 1950-е гг. ХАБАД пытался представить себя американскому еврейству в качестве единственного полномочного представителя ашкеназского еврейства Восточной Европы — отсюда и патерналистский тон книги, и не соответствующее исторической реальности выпячивание роли ХАБАДа в жизни русского еврейства." Galassi ( talk) 20:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
You must provide a RELIABLE source to anything contrary. Galassi ( talk) 20:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. If I understand the above discussion correctly, this Petrovsky-Stern character, whoever he is, doubts the account in Admor HaTzemach Tzedek uTnuas haHaskoloh because the term Chevra Techiyas Hameisim is somehow "too modern" for the 19th century and because this committee is not to be found in the minutes of the kehilos?!!! What stupid arguments. What great philological advance does he think occurred in the century between the events and RJIS's book, that would have made such a title more likely in the mid-20th century than in the mid-19th? And why would he even expect a criminal conspiracy, whose members faced execution for treason if caught, to be listed in the official records of the kehillos, especially since, as the article records, the kehillos were themselves complicit in sending these poor boys into slavery in the first place, and would surely inform on the chevra if they knew of its existence? RJIS's book is by definition a reliable source, and he was certainly in a better position than anybody else, including YPS, to know about this committee and its work; it is very likely that he had access to secret records of its work, and that he personally knew people who had been involved in it. YPS has nothing beyond the fact that he had never heard of it. I don't see why he's even mentioned, or why this is in "Literary references" rather than "Strains within the Jewish community", or even its own section "Rescue efforts". -- Zsero ( talk) 03:28, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Galassi has gone back to his reverts and insults. Another case of this and I'll have to post on wp:ani. In this specific case he brings a review of a book to source statements that are not treated in the review. Also he uses this same review to remove the verify credibility tag, which came to question the credibility of the book, not its factual existence. Debresser ( talk) 12:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
As an alternative to blocking or topic-banning both editors (Galassi and Debresser) involved in the long slow revert-war over those source taggings, I am taking out the whole passage about Schneerson, which to my mind has something rather coatrack-ish and is only of limited relevance to the overall topic anyway. This just as an interim stopgap solution. Feel free to reinsert if you think there's consensus for it, but be warned that any further edit-warring over it will then be met with sanctions (under the "Digwuren" discretionary sanctions rules)
Both Debresser and, to a lesser extent, Galassi are warned against abusing the {{ Verify credibility}} tag. To Debresser, about tagging the Petrovski-Shtern source: there seems to be no serious argument disputing the status of that book as technically a "reliable source" in the sense of WP:V. There is also no argument disputing that the statements ascribed to P.-Sh. were correctly summarised and that P.-Sh. actually claimed what our article said he claimed. These claims were also correctly framed and attributed to P.-Sh.'s as his opinions, rather than being stated as simple facts in the article. Therefore, there is nothing problematic here. The only issue you seem to have with this source is that you as an editor happen to disagree with it; this, however, is utterly irrelevant, since Wikipedia is about "verifiability, not truth". Your edit-warring over this tag was disruptive and a breach of the principles of WP:V. – To Galassi and his attempt at tagging the Schneerson book with that "credibility" tag: this is patently unnecessary, since the doubts about the factual correctness of the book were already covered in the text itself, by citing P.-Sh. If the article itself describes these doubts, then of course an additional tagging is redundant.
Links to this edit war will be filed as evidence in the current Arbcom case to which Debresser is a party. Debresser is advised he should be prepared to see the arbitrators taking a rather dim view of this incident. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
A note to Debresser: there was no requirement to supply children into service. It was left to entirely to qahals to decide who goes into service, and they were given the discretion to supply children.-- Galassi ( talk) 16:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
In this edit, some information was removed from the "Statistics" section, as containing information from the wrong century. According to this article, there were cantonists in the 19th century also, so I fail to understand why this is the "wrong century". I will restore this for now, being that it is sourced information from a relevant source, but will not object to good faith removal of the statement, if it turns out I misunderstand something here. Debresser ( talk) 09:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering if anybody out there would give your support for the development of a new section about the situation in Poland specifically. I would gladly look into the idea, but only if there was a sense of approval from the members of our community, otherwise I'm not interested in dealing with blanket-reverts. Poeticbent talk 19:52, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
The last source in the bibliography traces cantonists to 1917. The article cuts off in the middle of the 1850s. This article needs to be doubled to deal with changes after Alexander. It is also important to notice that cantonists played an important role in the Mendel Beilis trial of 1913. One witness had the right of residence anywhere as a cantonist who had served in 1905, and the Kiev government deliberately created a paper snafu that had a role in the trial. Another cantonist became a member of the Russian Church hierarchy and was drafted to support the ritual murder charge in court since everybody else in the church refused. Read A.S. Tager on the ldn-knigi site. If you don't know Russian, say so. I'm translating the Beilis transcript now, that's how I know these things, and I can translate Tager next year once I recover. 108.56.212.179 ( talk) 12:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
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Although no way identical nor equivalents, I feel there are some parallels in that all three are instances of Russian armed forced providing military education to youths. So I think they should be added to the See also. 79.68.142.24 ( talk) 22:20, 11 April 2019 (UTC)