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—
Yamara
✉
04:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
At this point the article is weighted towards the content (and if subsections are filled out the history) of the Liturgy of the Hours. I believe Canonical Hours is conceptually subordinate to Liturgy of the Hours. The redirect should be reversed.
Moss Hart
See Talk:Liturgy of the hours for comment. I have difficulty understanding the above remark that "Canonical Hours is conceptually subordinate to Liturgy of the Hours"; the Liturgy was developed to sanctify the time, not the other way around. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that Canonical hours is good for a general article that covers traditional Christian practice. Liturgy of the Hours is a neologism dating from the 1970s, in the post-Vatican II reform of the Office of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. The name comes from the official Latin title Liturgia Horarum, but I think that the British English translation still uses the older name Divine Office, and not Liturgy of the Hours. Also, some Latin Rite religious orders that have their own editions of the Divine Office don't use the name Liturgy of the Hours. -- Marcusscotus1 19:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Nonetheless this entry largely duplicates the main Liturgy of the Hours entry, and focuses on it as a liturgical method of prayer. The distinction of canonical hours as a division of time around the prayer cycle is, at best, a subsection within that article. This whole page should be merged with the other. Luckybucky ( talk) 23:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
A question: Why is there a consistent removal of Fish Eaters (note: I have no dog in this fight, don't know them, and know very little about them).
But it seems like a legitimate, rather interesting site. I assume this decision was made some time ago. What was the reasoning? Carlo 22:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I added link to septimal clock http://the-light.com/cal/veseptimal.html that divides one day into seven hours, one hour into seven minutes, one minute into seven seconds, next one second into seven tierces, and so on. Subdivisions are arranged in pairs. As weeks has seven days, that one day has seven canonical hours. This makes measuring of time consistent by choosing septenary base for all Christian time units, and extends remembering of derivation of all creations from God itself into all branches of life and science. This can be extended too by grouping weeks into seasons containing seven weeks each, and then all seven seasons into one 343-day draconitic/ecliptic year. This septenary system can be even further extended into non-time units such as units of length, mass, temperature, and so on, and even further into all mathematics. More about deriving all units from time unit only is here: [1] In this way canonical hours would be named as Prima, Secunda, Tertia, Quarta, Quinta, Sexta, and Septima, *without* even slight influences of babylonian pagan heritage such as 360° of time and space divided into 60', 3600" and 216000''', that are obviously based on multiples of '6', that is in turn derived from '666' - number of the beast. In this way remembrance of God's authorship and consistence in all measures will be obtained at once without contradiction, and all revolutionary and pagan units will be hopefully purged and abolished. For confirmation of septenary consistence in God's measuring, I give you for example, that as six work days are complemented with seventh Lord's day, that twelve Apostles are complemented with thirteenth Mary-Queen of the Apostles and fourteenth Jesus-King of the Apostles, giving both amounts as seven and fourteen respectively, after complementing with holy counterparts over ordinary ones. Wikinger 09:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Isn't the correct name of the book that refers to the weekly cycle called Paraklitike? -- Kupirijo 02:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Misha, two points.
I understand what you're trying to do, but the common usage in English is 'Octoechos' or even 'Eight Tones', not 'Oktoechos'. 'Oktoechos' is a direct transliteration of the Greek, and if we're going to use that, we might as well end up using 'Oktoikh' or even 'Osmoglasnik'. Not to mention 'Pentekostarion', 'Eukhologion', 'Heirmologion', Besides, an article already exists at 'Octoechos'. Let's stick to English usage.
Next, the Eastern Catholic equivalent to the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the 'Greek-Catholic Churches', not just the 'Eastern Catholic Churches' in general, which also refers to the Coptic/Armenian/Syrian Catholics too. 'Greek-Catholic' is the precise term. Also, the name of the article has been changed from 'Eastern Rite Catholic Churches' to 'Eastern Catholic Churches', so please stop linking to the former. InfernoXV 09:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added some info about Oriental Orthodox services, based mostly on what I could research on the Internet. Anyone who is more knowledgable should look these entries over to correct my mistakes. The West Syrian entry especially needs more work.
Question: Do all Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Armenian, etc.) observe the same lesser fasts as the East Syrians? MishaPan 01:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
"Canonical hours" seems like an unusual name for the article. I never speak of "praying the Canonical Hours." I always say I am praying the Daily Office or Divine Office. (There have been efforts to redirect Divine Office to Liturgy of the Hours, as if the Roman Catholic version were the only one, but the former page now is a disambiguation between the latter page and this one). The current name seems to fly in the face of Wikipedia best practice with regards to using common nomenclature. Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 15:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR ( talk) 16:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I am proposing that this page be moved to "Daily Office." I cannot do this on my own, since Daily Office is apparently an "invalid" destination (strange, since it's only ever been a redirect, which I thought made it an exception). Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 15:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
It is my impression, both from BCP and from my local Anglicans, that Divine Office is a wider term, applicable to all the Offices of the Church (the service of baptism, for example), and thus that the present header needs to be tweaked; I will of course yield to sourced statements to the contrary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
That's really disappointing, because I really don't know anyone on God's green earth who calls it that. In the words of Will Ferrell, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 17:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I made the following corrections:
Maybe this section should link to the Agpeya page? The Cake 2 ( talk) 18:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Not sure what you want to do with Draft:Divine Office, but perhaps some of the content should be moved here.-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 01:42, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't have the time to judiciously decide where these references could br useful
(Catholic Encyclopedia) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02768b.htm
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/canonical+hour
I agree with the above Talk comments: the Liturgy is presented here (in more detail than I'd like lol) and thus the separate page is pretty redundant. Identification of it as to year, and differences between here and there, belong there. The rest of Liturgy page should be purged.
As noted above, this page repeats verbatim much of the Liturgy of the Hours article, which has also been noted as "cleaner and better written overall". In order to reduce duplication and distinguish one page from the other, I have trimmed most of the LOTH material with a link to the Main, and left this as a discussion of the practice in various other groups. Manannan67 ( talk) 17:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
This is easily able to be folded in. I don't even think it would take up an entire section, just a mention that some separate them by day and night. Jerod Lycett ( talk) 05:03, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:58, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Diurnal offices page were merged into Canonical hours on 21 August 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
Want to help write or improve articles about Time? Join
WikiProject Time or visit the
Time Portal for a list of articles that need improving.
—
Yamara
✉
04:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
At this point the article is weighted towards the content (and if subsections are filled out the history) of the Liturgy of the Hours. I believe Canonical Hours is conceptually subordinate to Liturgy of the Hours. The redirect should be reversed.
Moss Hart
See Talk:Liturgy of the hours for comment. I have difficulty understanding the above remark that "Canonical Hours is conceptually subordinate to Liturgy of the Hours"; the Liturgy was developed to sanctify the time, not the other way around. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that Canonical hours is good for a general article that covers traditional Christian practice. Liturgy of the Hours is a neologism dating from the 1970s, in the post-Vatican II reform of the Office of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. The name comes from the official Latin title Liturgia Horarum, but I think that the British English translation still uses the older name Divine Office, and not Liturgy of the Hours. Also, some Latin Rite religious orders that have their own editions of the Divine Office don't use the name Liturgy of the Hours. -- Marcusscotus1 19:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Nonetheless this entry largely duplicates the main Liturgy of the Hours entry, and focuses on it as a liturgical method of prayer. The distinction of canonical hours as a division of time around the prayer cycle is, at best, a subsection within that article. This whole page should be merged with the other. Luckybucky ( talk) 23:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
A question: Why is there a consistent removal of Fish Eaters (note: I have no dog in this fight, don't know them, and know very little about them).
But it seems like a legitimate, rather interesting site. I assume this decision was made some time ago. What was the reasoning? Carlo 22:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I added link to septimal clock http://the-light.com/cal/veseptimal.html that divides one day into seven hours, one hour into seven minutes, one minute into seven seconds, next one second into seven tierces, and so on. Subdivisions are arranged in pairs. As weeks has seven days, that one day has seven canonical hours. This makes measuring of time consistent by choosing septenary base for all Christian time units, and extends remembering of derivation of all creations from God itself into all branches of life and science. This can be extended too by grouping weeks into seasons containing seven weeks each, and then all seven seasons into one 343-day draconitic/ecliptic year. This septenary system can be even further extended into non-time units such as units of length, mass, temperature, and so on, and even further into all mathematics. More about deriving all units from time unit only is here: [1] In this way canonical hours would be named as Prima, Secunda, Tertia, Quarta, Quinta, Sexta, and Septima, *without* even slight influences of babylonian pagan heritage such as 360° of time and space divided into 60', 3600" and 216000''', that are obviously based on multiples of '6', that is in turn derived from '666' - number of the beast. In this way remembrance of God's authorship and consistence in all measures will be obtained at once without contradiction, and all revolutionary and pagan units will be hopefully purged and abolished. For confirmation of septenary consistence in God's measuring, I give you for example, that as six work days are complemented with seventh Lord's day, that twelve Apostles are complemented with thirteenth Mary-Queen of the Apostles and fourteenth Jesus-King of the Apostles, giving both amounts as seven and fourteen respectively, after complementing with holy counterparts over ordinary ones. Wikinger 09:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Isn't the correct name of the book that refers to the weekly cycle called Paraklitike? -- Kupirijo 02:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Misha, two points.
I understand what you're trying to do, but the common usage in English is 'Octoechos' or even 'Eight Tones', not 'Oktoechos'. 'Oktoechos' is a direct transliteration of the Greek, and if we're going to use that, we might as well end up using 'Oktoikh' or even 'Osmoglasnik'. Not to mention 'Pentekostarion', 'Eukhologion', 'Heirmologion', Besides, an article already exists at 'Octoechos'. Let's stick to English usage.
Next, the Eastern Catholic equivalent to the Eastern Orthodox Churches are the 'Greek-Catholic Churches', not just the 'Eastern Catholic Churches' in general, which also refers to the Coptic/Armenian/Syrian Catholics too. 'Greek-Catholic' is the precise term. Also, the name of the article has been changed from 'Eastern Rite Catholic Churches' to 'Eastern Catholic Churches', so please stop linking to the former. InfernoXV 09:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added some info about Oriental Orthodox services, based mostly on what I could research on the Internet. Anyone who is more knowledgable should look these entries over to correct my mistakes. The West Syrian entry especially needs more work.
Question: Do all Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Armenian, etc.) observe the same lesser fasts as the East Syrians? MishaPan 01:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
"Canonical hours" seems like an unusual name for the article. I never speak of "praying the Canonical Hours." I always say I am praying the Daily Office or Divine Office. (There have been efforts to redirect Divine Office to Liturgy of the Hours, as if the Roman Catholic version were the only one, but the former page now is a disambiguation between the latter page and this one). The current name seems to fly in the face of Wikipedia best practice with regards to using common nomenclature. Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 15:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR ( talk) 16:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I am proposing that this page be moved to "Daily Office." I cannot do this on my own, since Daily Office is apparently an "invalid" destination (strange, since it's only ever been a redirect, which I thought made it an exception). Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 15:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
It is my impression, both from BCP and from my local Anglicans, that Divine Office is a wider term, applicable to all the Offices of the Church (the service of baptism, for example), and thus that the present header needs to be tweaked; I will of course yield to sourced statements to the contrary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
That's really disappointing, because I really don't know anyone on God's green earth who calls it that. In the words of Will Ferrell, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Carolynparrishfan ( talk) 17:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I made the following corrections:
Maybe this section should link to the Agpeya page? The Cake 2 ( talk) 18:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Not sure what you want to do with Draft:Divine Office, but perhaps some of the content should be moved here.-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 01:42, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't have the time to judiciously decide where these references could br useful
(Catholic Encyclopedia) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02768b.htm
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/canonical+hour
I agree with the above Talk comments: the Liturgy is presented here (in more detail than I'd like lol) and thus the separate page is pretty redundant. Identification of it as to year, and differences between here and there, belong there. The rest of Liturgy page should be purged.
As noted above, this page repeats verbatim much of the Liturgy of the Hours article, which has also been noted as "cleaner and better written overall". In order to reduce duplication and distinguish one page from the other, I have trimmed most of the LOTH material with a link to the Main, and left this as a discussion of the practice in various other groups. Manannan67 ( talk) 17:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
This is easily able to be folded in. I don't even think it would take up an entire section, just a mention that some separate them by day and night. Jerod Lycett ( talk) 05:03, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 04:58, 28 April 2021 (UTC)