The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Layout wise: this article has several short subsections that should be combined and reordered. Long term, the design section should be moved out of the history and made time-neutral. The Notable places section is completely unnecessary in its current form, which advertises two nearby developments but neglects to include information on the surrounding area as a whole.
paraphrased see
[1], if Canberra station ,the station and between Sembawang and Yishun stations, are COPYVIO then I don't really know what to do already.
Quek157 (
talk)
17:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The prose and layout needs a lot of work, to say the least, and I don't think the authors should be nominating future GANs without going through peer review or an outside copyedit. I also think this nomination may be premature, especially since the opening is fairly soon in the future. SounderBruce02:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Comments
Infobox
If there isn't information about the bicycle and disabled access, it should be omitted. Taxi connections are also unnecessary.
Done the bycycle and ADA is confirmed, just that the infobox mentioned that it was under construction (which is true).
Canberra MRT station (NS12) is a future elevated Mass Rapid Transit (MRT) station on the North South Line (NSL), and is located along Canberra Link in Sembawang, Singapore.
The second part of this sentence is a bit awkward and should be split out.
It will serve commuters living in the eastern part of Sembawang which include private developments (both landed property and condominiums) as well as numerous new and upcoming Housing and Development Board (HDB) public housing developments.
Serving "commuters" is a vague and the presence of private and public development goes without saying. Is this really important enough to be included in the lead?
Consider moving the fourth sentence in the second paragraph ("Both master plans mentioned the possible...") earlier to provide context before the reader gets bored of the plans.
Once it's established that the plans were published in 2013, the year does not need to be repeated. Also, is it really necessary to include the exact date of each plan's publication? Cutting it down to the month would make for smoother reading.
Explain what these housing estates are and how the entrance will link to them.
Done I have entirely deleted it, as it should be in the Location of Station, shifted this piece of info there to prevent duplicate
Quek157 (
talk)
10:09, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
What are "linkways" and "linkbridge"s? These aren't standard terms.
Done change linkway to covered pathways, linkbridge to elevated footbridge. These are Singapore terms (sorry for international audience) --
Quek157 (
talk)
07:01, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Actually since there was already a crossover north of YIS, there is no reason for another one in between YIS and SBW. With the construction of Canberra, they now have a reason to throw in another crossover track North of Canberra (between CAN and SBW). Source is at SGtrains and it is not considered a reliable source.
1.02 editor (
C651 set
217/
218)
12:31, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
"This helps" needs to be replaced with a more encyclopedic term.
History – Construction * Done --
Quek157 (
talk) 09
17, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
"China State Construction Engineering Corporation (Singapore)"
Is that "of Singapore" or the Singapore subsidiary? It's very unclear.
Done Proper name is "CHINA STATE CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING CORPORATION LIMITED SINGAPORE BRANCH" per
[2] but modified a little to sound clearer since ltd is not there --
Quek157 (
talk)
07:11, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Don't use the term "Singapore dollar (SGD)" in a Singapore article.
"On 11 September 2017, the foundation works have been completed."
No need to be so specific with the date. The entire sentence is grammatically incorrect and should instead read "By September, work on the foundation had been completed" or something similar. Try to find out if the foundation had been merely placed or poured, which makes the transition to the next sentence easier.
"Therefore, construction of platform slabs started."
Therefore is the incorrect word. This is also a sentence fragment that should be merged.
"On 19 February 2018, it was announced that as part of Singapore Budget for the Financial Year 2018 / 2019, around $46 million SGD will be used to procure additional trains for the station and it was revealed that the total project cost for the station (excluding the additional trains) is now at $228 million SGD."
Lots of figures that should not be tied to this specific date. Put the project budget at the beginning of the construction section, add train procurement to the fleet article instead, and don't use specific titles for generic documents like a budget.
Done will like to emphasize that the 46 million is for the additional trains for this station to function and I feel it is relevant in both article (as stated in the budget statement - for Canberra Station), will lump together as project cost --
Quek157 (
talk)
09:15, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Don't use "Notable" in the section title. Done changed to location of station, I use this is to comply with the entire articcle structure proposed by Wikiproject trains - station .
Quek157 (
talk)
10:05, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
This section would be better used to describe the area surrounding the station, with a passing mention of these two landmarks and some of their features, rather than focusing solely on them. Population, jobs, parks, schools, etc. should be given focus.
"a new generation neighbourhood centre" sounds like a press release and doesn't tell the reader anything. It would be useful to note the number of units and buildings are included in this development, or the fact that it's a public project.
Polyclinic links to a disambiguation page. Done linked to
General hospital1.02 editor (
C651 set
217/
218) 03:50, 1 May 2018 (UTC) Done I removed the link entirely, a polyclinic is not a hospital. Will do more to reform this section so the links will not need to be there at all. --
Quek157 (
talk)
07:19, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
What kind of transit service is there to the Canberra Lane area today? How will the bus network change when the station opens?
Done public buses routes added Not done that's really
WP:CRYSTAL. Sometimes when stations opens in SG, routes are cut (rationalization -
NEL), sometimes more are added. Really I cannot agree crystal balling as in Singapore, the government will not mention anything before hand. Hope you understand
Quek157 (
talk)
11:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Is there a more specific date for the station's opening?
I'll give the nominators a few days to work on this, but even after all these comments there are still other issues to bring up. I suggest looking at existing GAs on future stations (of which I have written a few, like
U District station) to learn the proper way of laying out a future-proof (or rather future-ready) article. SounderBruce02:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Sidenote for @
SounderBruce:, can we use skyscrapercity photos for wikipedia, I know you have a lot of photos there, and may know. The singapore version have good photos for this station also. --
Quek157 (
talk)
18:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The author of the image must give proper permission and license the image under a free license (Creative Commons, public domain, GDFL, etc.). The most common way of getting people to donate their images is through
OTRS on Commons, which requires validation, or by changing the licenses on Flickr.
I'll be posting the rest of my comments later in the week. There is no need to repeatedly ping me, since I have this page on my watchlist. SounderBruce03:52, 4 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Comments, part 2
While most of my points were addressed, the resulting article is still riddled with existing and new grammar issues. Some new passages are even unreferenced and read like a phoned-in school report rather than an encyclopedia entry. The point of a GA review is not to hand-hold editors until their article is up to an acceptable standard, but instead point out small mistakes that help put a final polish on the work; the number of issues listed in my above review was well above the minimum that other reviewers would use to quick-fail a nomination. In addition to the fundamental problems here, the article is likely to undergo massive changes when the station is opened, and I'm not confident it can retain GA status.
As such, I will be closing this review on criteria 1(a) and 1(b), as well as 3(b). I highly suggest that this article undergo a real copyedit from
WP:GOCE or a real peer review before re-appearing at GAN. SounderBruce00:27, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Apologies for missing most of what's happened over the past week due to exams. I've managed a brief glance over the changes over the article though, so here's my take. To some extent I agree with SounderBruce that part of the article read like a school essay, especially at the parts failing 3B: under the construction section where the direct relevance of the calls for safety by various figures to the article is questionable, as well as the description of the crossover track where I find too much elaboration on the rail disruption, which is not remotely related to the station itself. I also see some
primary sources, which are usually not recommended to be used. On the brighter side the grammar issues are fixable and I can work on that as and when I'm available. I was working on ref style before I went off for exams and I can continue that too. Moving forward, I feel we should probably wait for the station to open next year; there's no rush to get this up to GA, and it will need a large rewrite when the station does open. In addition, at that time there will likely be a slew of news reports that may be used to source new information and better source existing information. Afterwards as SounderBruce suggested we can request for a peer review and/or a copyedit if one will still be necessary. ~ KN2731 {
t ⋅
c}
10:03, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
No matter what happens after this I would still like to thank SounderBruce for his patience, and taking time off to give such detailed comments and recommendations. ~ KN2731 {
t ⋅
c}
10:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
i think we may have been a bit too optimistic when discussing this before, as with what SounderBruce said, the article does not meet 1a, 1b and 3b. Being a GA reviewer myself, i should have saw these problems beforehand and would like to sincerely apologise for overlooking this issues. moving on, i think that as what KN2731 said, we should send this to GOCE for someone to do up the article. I do understand different reviewers have different styles (with mine being one where i try to make every article i review pass, regardless the circumstances), and have no objections to this closure. I would like to thank SounderBruce for his time in reviewing the article as i understand that this article could have qualified for a quick fail, and my fellow nominators for their work on the article.
1.02 editor (
C651 set
217/
218)
10:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
@
1.02 editor and
KN2731: (I will not ping the reviewer since he had this on his talkpage).
Opening Comments. As per the co-nominators view, I agree this is too premature. I also echo my thanks to SounderBrunce who had taken time to painstakingly take this review to this depth. I also concur that 3(b) is not met. As per 1a/1b, I respectfully disagree. As GA criteria is not to have unblemished language, surely we can trash it out further here before the closing. I had also independently used spelling / grammar checkers available offline and there seems no major problems. I felt that some of the contents that Brunce asked us to add further conflicted the article and ultimately further decline the quality of the prose. However, since 3 (b) is not met, that's is a non issue. I will like to also thank Brunce for not immediately failing it as it will not serve justice for this article but with the Part 2 coming so late from Part 1, this cause some confusion as well as greater disharmony of the article. I also will like to state that for GA, failure should be expected and reviewers should not just pass any review without deep consideration. Hence, Brunce is correct in his approach and I thank him for it. We cannot pass an article "regardless the circumstances" as it will only open up to reassessments.
Points to take note of: Since 3(b) is not met, and by some extent, 1a/1b is not met, this article cannot even qualify for "B" class, however, "C" class is affirmed by this review. As I reviewed pictures of progress of this station, the current stage is just putting up the roof structure. The is a board outside the station which state that the completion is 30 Sept 2019. However, with testing issues and the rest, I don't expect the station to be up that soon. I will think there will be tethering problems as well as more reactions from the ground. I am afraid that such statements will not be that available as many of the MPs in Sembawang / residents normally comment on Facebook not on press. All these needs to be included into the article for a 3b to be met. More pictures will be appreciated also, and I will try to provide it. However, that being said, I feel this review is too rush in concurrence with the rest of the nominators. However, I will like to state that I rushed it as this is the only time this article can be stable enough. When opening, there will be a lot of things going on as ironic as it sounds. Unless much work is done then, I can only conclude this is
WP:SNOW and
WP:TOOSOON, understood broadly. I will think a copyedit / peer review is good but given the amount of information, and the lack of information at hand (which I trawled the whole internet - all languages in Singapore - and yet this is the only bits of information, most as primary sources - only reinforces the idea of WP:SNOW.
Concluding remarks: To my co-nominators, thank you for the hard work. To the review, thanks for the work. Though we fail, this is another learning occasion. Pardon me if this will sound rude, but I will think the motto for both my alma matter as well as 1.02 editor school will be a fitting closure: nothing without labour, the best is yet to be. --
Quek157 (
talk)
11:06, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Layout wise: this article has several short subsections that should be combined and reordered. Long term, the design section should be moved out of the history and made time-neutral. The Notable places section is completely unnecessary in its current form, which advertises two nearby developments but neglects to include information on the surrounding area as a whole.
paraphrased see
[1], if Canberra station ,the station and between Sembawang and Yishun stations, are COPYVIO then I don't really know what to do already.
Quek157 (
talk)
17:21, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The prose and layout needs a lot of work, to say the least, and I don't think the authors should be nominating future GANs without going through peer review or an outside copyedit. I also think this nomination may be premature, especially since the opening is fairly soon in the future. SounderBruce02:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Comments
Infobox
If there isn't information about the bicycle and disabled access, it should be omitted. Taxi connections are also unnecessary.
Done the bycycle and ADA is confirmed, just that the infobox mentioned that it was under construction (which is true).
Canberra MRT station (NS12) is a future elevated Mass Rapid Transit (MRT) station on the North South Line (NSL), and is located along Canberra Link in Sembawang, Singapore.
The second part of this sentence is a bit awkward and should be split out.
It will serve commuters living in the eastern part of Sembawang which include private developments (both landed property and condominiums) as well as numerous new and upcoming Housing and Development Board (HDB) public housing developments.
Serving "commuters" is a vague and the presence of private and public development goes without saying. Is this really important enough to be included in the lead?
Consider moving the fourth sentence in the second paragraph ("Both master plans mentioned the possible...") earlier to provide context before the reader gets bored of the plans.
Once it's established that the plans were published in 2013, the year does not need to be repeated. Also, is it really necessary to include the exact date of each plan's publication? Cutting it down to the month would make for smoother reading.
Explain what these housing estates are and how the entrance will link to them.
Done I have entirely deleted it, as it should be in the Location of Station, shifted this piece of info there to prevent duplicate
Quek157 (
talk)
10:09, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
What are "linkways" and "linkbridge"s? These aren't standard terms.
Done change linkway to covered pathways, linkbridge to elevated footbridge. These are Singapore terms (sorry for international audience) --
Quek157 (
talk)
07:01, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Actually since there was already a crossover north of YIS, there is no reason for another one in between YIS and SBW. With the construction of Canberra, they now have a reason to throw in another crossover track North of Canberra (between CAN and SBW). Source is at SGtrains and it is not considered a reliable source.
1.02 editor (
C651 set
217/
218)
12:31, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
"This helps" needs to be replaced with a more encyclopedic term.
History – Construction * Done --
Quek157 (
talk) 09
17, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
"China State Construction Engineering Corporation (Singapore)"
Is that "of Singapore" or the Singapore subsidiary? It's very unclear.
Done Proper name is "CHINA STATE CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING CORPORATION LIMITED SINGAPORE BRANCH" per
[2] but modified a little to sound clearer since ltd is not there --
Quek157 (
talk)
07:11, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Don't use the term "Singapore dollar (SGD)" in a Singapore article.
"On 11 September 2017, the foundation works have been completed."
No need to be so specific with the date. The entire sentence is grammatically incorrect and should instead read "By September, work on the foundation had been completed" or something similar. Try to find out if the foundation had been merely placed or poured, which makes the transition to the next sentence easier.
"Therefore, construction of platform slabs started."
Therefore is the incorrect word. This is also a sentence fragment that should be merged.
"On 19 February 2018, it was announced that as part of Singapore Budget for the Financial Year 2018 / 2019, around $46 million SGD will be used to procure additional trains for the station and it was revealed that the total project cost for the station (excluding the additional trains) is now at $228 million SGD."
Lots of figures that should not be tied to this specific date. Put the project budget at the beginning of the construction section, add train procurement to the fleet article instead, and don't use specific titles for generic documents like a budget.
Done will like to emphasize that the 46 million is for the additional trains for this station to function and I feel it is relevant in both article (as stated in the budget statement - for Canberra Station), will lump together as project cost --
Quek157 (
talk)
09:15, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Don't use "Notable" in the section title. Done changed to location of station, I use this is to comply with the entire articcle structure proposed by Wikiproject trains - station .
Quek157 (
talk)
10:05, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
This section would be better used to describe the area surrounding the station, with a passing mention of these two landmarks and some of their features, rather than focusing solely on them. Population, jobs, parks, schools, etc. should be given focus.
"a new generation neighbourhood centre" sounds like a press release and doesn't tell the reader anything. It would be useful to note the number of units and buildings are included in this development, or the fact that it's a public project.
Polyclinic links to a disambiguation page. Done linked to
General hospital1.02 editor (
C651 set
217/
218) 03:50, 1 May 2018 (UTC) Done I removed the link entirely, a polyclinic is not a hospital. Will do more to reform this section so the links will not need to be there at all. --
Quek157 (
talk)
07:19, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
What kind of transit service is there to the Canberra Lane area today? How will the bus network change when the station opens?
Done public buses routes added Not done that's really
WP:CRYSTAL. Sometimes when stations opens in SG, routes are cut (rationalization -
NEL), sometimes more are added. Really I cannot agree crystal balling as in Singapore, the government will not mention anything before hand. Hope you understand
Quek157 (
talk)
11:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Is there a more specific date for the station's opening?
I'll give the nominators a few days to work on this, but even after all these comments there are still other issues to bring up. I suggest looking at existing GAs on future stations (of which I have written a few, like
U District station) to learn the proper way of laying out a future-proof (or rather future-ready) article. SounderBruce02:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Sidenote for @
SounderBruce:, can we use skyscrapercity photos for wikipedia, I know you have a lot of photos there, and may know. The singapore version have good photos for this station also. --
Quek157 (
talk)
18:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The author of the image must give proper permission and license the image under a free license (Creative Commons, public domain, GDFL, etc.). The most common way of getting people to donate their images is through
OTRS on Commons, which requires validation, or by changing the licenses on Flickr.
I'll be posting the rest of my comments later in the week. There is no need to repeatedly ping me, since I have this page on my watchlist. SounderBruce03:52, 4 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Comments, part 2
While most of my points were addressed, the resulting article is still riddled with existing and new grammar issues. Some new passages are even unreferenced and read like a phoned-in school report rather than an encyclopedia entry. The point of a GA review is not to hand-hold editors until their article is up to an acceptable standard, but instead point out small mistakes that help put a final polish on the work; the number of issues listed in my above review was well above the minimum that other reviewers would use to quick-fail a nomination. In addition to the fundamental problems here, the article is likely to undergo massive changes when the station is opened, and I'm not confident it can retain GA status.
As such, I will be closing this review on criteria 1(a) and 1(b), as well as 3(b). I highly suggest that this article undergo a real copyedit from
WP:GOCE or a real peer review before re-appearing at GAN. SounderBruce00:27, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
Apologies for missing most of what's happened over the past week due to exams. I've managed a brief glance over the changes over the article though, so here's my take. To some extent I agree with SounderBruce that part of the article read like a school essay, especially at the parts failing 3B: under the construction section where the direct relevance of the calls for safety by various figures to the article is questionable, as well as the description of the crossover track where I find too much elaboration on the rail disruption, which is not remotely related to the station itself. I also see some
primary sources, which are usually not recommended to be used. On the brighter side the grammar issues are fixable and I can work on that as and when I'm available. I was working on ref style before I went off for exams and I can continue that too. Moving forward, I feel we should probably wait for the station to open next year; there's no rush to get this up to GA, and it will need a large rewrite when the station does open. In addition, at that time there will likely be a slew of news reports that may be used to source new information and better source existing information. Afterwards as SounderBruce suggested we can request for a peer review and/or a copyedit if one will still be necessary. ~ KN2731 {
t ⋅
c}
10:03, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
No matter what happens after this I would still like to thank SounderBruce for his patience, and taking time off to give such detailed comments and recommendations. ~ KN2731 {
t ⋅
c}
10:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
i think we may have been a bit too optimistic when discussing this before, as with what SounderBruce said, the article does not meet 1a, 1b and 3b. Being a GA reviewer myself, i should have saw these problems beforehand and would like to sincerely apologise for overlooking this issues. moving on, i think that as what KN2731 said, we should send this to GOCE for someone to do up the article. I do understand different reviewers have different styles (with mine being one where i try to make every article i review pass, regardless the circumstances), and have no objections to this closure. I would like to thank SounderBruce for his time in reviewing the article as i understand that this article could have qualified for a quick fail, and my fellow nominators for their work on the article.
1.02 editor (
C651 set
217/
218)
10:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
@
1.02 editor and
KN2731: (I will not ping the reviewer since he had this on his talkpage).
Opening Comments. As per the co-nominators view, I agree this is too premature. I also echo my thanks to SounderBrunce who had taken time to painstakingly take this review to this depth. I also concur that 3(b) is not met. As per 1a/1b, I respectfully disagree. As GA criteria is not to have unblemished language, surely we can trash it out further here before the closing. I had also independently used spelling / grammar checkers available offline and there seems no major problems. I felt that some of the contents that Brunce asked us to add further conflicted the article and ultimately further decline the quality of the prose. However, since 3 (b) is not met, that's is a non issue. I will like to also thank Brunce for not immediately failing it as it will not serve justice for this article but with the Part 2 coming so late from Part 1, this cause some confusion as well as greater disharmony of the article. I also will like to state that for GA, failure should be expected and reviewers should not just pass any review without deep consideration. Hence, Brunce is correct in his approach and I thank him for it. We cannot pass an article "regardless the circumstances" as it will only open up to reassessments.
Points to take note of: Since 3(b) is not met, and by some extent, 1a/1b is not met, this article cannot even qualify for "B" class, however, "C" class is affirmed by this review. As I reviewed pictures of progress of this station, the current stage is just putting up the roof structure. The is a board outside the station which state that the completion is 30 Sept 2019. However, with testing issues and the rest, I don't expect the station to be up that soon. I will think there will be tethering problems as well as more reactions from the ground. I am afraid that such statements will not be that available as many of the MPs in Sembawang / residents normally comment on Facebook not on press. All these needs to be included into the article for a 3b to be met. More pictures will be appreciated also, and I will try to provide it. However, that being said, I feel this review is too rush in concurrence with the rest of the nominators. However, I will like to state that I rushed it as this is the only time this article can be stable enough. When opening, there will be a lot of things going on as ironic as it sounds. Unless much work is done then, I can only conclude this is
WP:SNOW and
WP:TOOSOON, understood broadly. I will think a copyedit / peer review is good but given the amount of information, and the lack of information at hand (which I trawled the whole internet - all languages in Singapore - and yet this is the only bits of information, most as primary sources - only reinforces the idea of WP:SNOW.
Concluding remarks: To my co-nominators, thank you for the hard work. To the review, thanks for the work. Though we fail, this is another learning occasion. Pardon me if this will sound rude, but I will think the motto for both my alma matter as well as 1.02 editor school will be a fitting closure: nothing without labour, the best is yet to be. --
Quek157 (
talk)
11:06, 5 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.