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Current status: Delisted good article |
I have located a document that lists several different Gaelic lexical items unique to Canada here but unfortunately it's a scholarly journal and I can't access the information. Strangely, however, searching through google returns one or two words, so piece-by-piece I am putting together a list. If anyone has access to this journal site (JSTOR) please find out these terms! — Muckapædia 6e mai 2007, 2h12 (UTC+0900) 머크백과 tǂ c
Should this page not be called ' Scots Gaelic in Canada' ? There is no dialect difference between scots gaelic in canada and in scotland.. infact cape breton is said to have preserved local gaelic dialects from scotland (eg: the barra accent) better than in scotland...
Swingbeaver 03h41, 21 August 2005 (GMT-5h00) says:
The Gaelic name was given as Gàidhlig na Canada, which is ungrammatical in Gaelic because Canada is a masculine noun (na is the feminine genitive singular form of the definite article), and it doesn't take the definite article anyway. I changed it to Gàidhlig Chanada, which is grammatically correct, but that is still a neologism and has no Google hits. Probably Gaelic speakers would just call it Gàidhlig ann an Canada ("Gaelic in Canada") or Gàidhlig na h-Alba ann an Canada ("Scottish Gaelic in Canada"). -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 19:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Again, this page has been renamed to "Canadian Gaelic" in accordance with Wikipedia article naming conventions. Currently there are four articles which exist on Wikipedia that describe European languages with Canadian dialects: French, English, Ukranian and Gaelic. The titles of the first three articles are Canadian French, Canadian English, and Canadian Ukrainian.
The special problem with Gaelic is that there are (at least) two distinct living versions ( Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, classified as separate languages by some, seperate dialects by others), and the version pertinent to this article is Scottish Gaelic. By not putting "Scottish" in the title of the article, it becomes ambiguous to some.
It should not be, however, for the following reasons:
A name which would be in a similar vein to Canadian French, Canadian English, Canadian Ukrainian etc would be Canadian Scottish Gaelic. French, English and Ukrainian are all specific languages while Gaelic, regardless of how the term may be used colloquially, refers to a language grouping. The title Canadian Gaelic is misleading and is the equivalent of naming the article on French in Canada Canadian Romance/ English in Canada Canadian Germanic. siarach 11:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
In Cape Breton Scots Gaelic is often referred to simply as Gaelic, but the particular areas in Scotland where the dialects came from are often referred to in Cape Breton as well. No one speaks of "Canadian Gaelic". Instead, older speakers will explain that their dialect is South Uist dialect, or Harris dialect, or Lewis dialect. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 14:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I have to say I agree with MacRusgail and siarach that we should change the title to the article to "Canadian Scottish Gaelic". Regardless of what your personal perception of the language is, Scottish Gaelic is seen by linguists as being a distinct language from Irish and Manx. I have NEVER heard any scholarly argument to the contrary. Various Arabic dialects may not be perceived this way, but this article isn't about Arabic so that's irrelevant. For instance, Maltese is no more distinct from standard Arabic than colloquial dialects of the latter language. Does that mean that if, hypothetically, there were a dialect of the former language indigenous to Canada we should call it "Canadian Arabic"? Of course not because Maltese is seen as a distinct language. Same with Scottish Gaelic, just because it could, when compared to say Arabic or Kurdish, be considered a dialect of a hypothetical pan-Gaelic language doesn't mean that it is and the name of this article should reflect that.
"Canadian Scottish Gaelic" is not ambiguous as "Scottish Gaelic" is the name of the language, adding "Canadian" just tells you where the dialect is spoken. Any argument that it's ambiguous is equivalent to saying that "Canadian French" is ambiguous as it might lead someone to believe it's spoken in France. Crazygraham ( talk) 23:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment I support any move away from "Canadian Gaelic" to something including the word Scottish. In Scotland it seems to be common to devalue the language by relieving it of the national adjective, something Irish and Manx Gaels don't put up with. And that's the other reason - Manx and Irish are Gaelic too, and Irish has been spoken in Canada. Sure, it's different from the language in Scotland, but so's "Canadian French" and "Canadian English" (although the latter isn't hugely differently).-- MacRusgail 17:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The portions of the article written by myself adhere generally to endonymic language conventions. Multiple names in the article have been supplied in their Gaelic forms --- this has been done in situations where the person's first language was Gaelic, and so their native name (read: true name) was originally Gaelic. For an analagous situation in Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Irish Orthography in naming people — Muckapædia 3h00, 2e Novembre 2006 (GMT +9h00)
"It is estimated more than 50 000 Gaelic settlers immigrated to Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island during this period, the last ship arriving in 1840."[9]
The source referenced there doesn't actually say the last ship arrived in 1840. What it actually says is that Scottish emigration to North America was fairly constant from 1815-1870. Perhaps the person who contributed the above meant 1870 instead of 1840, but my sketchy knowledge of history won't permit me to say for sure whether the last ship really did arrive in 1870.
The source referenced above refers to North America as a whole, but I think the date of 1840 is also wrong if applied only to Nova Scotia and Cape Breton. Some of my Gaelic-speaking MacLeod ancestors arrived in Nova Scotia on a ship called the John and Robert in 1843 (they'd left Tobermory on the Catherine but had to change ships in Belfast). I've changed the date from 1840 to between 1815 and 1870. Iordan MacBheatha 02:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is well written and comprehensive. I would even go as far to say that, with a bit of expansion, it would be FA-material. A lot of very good work clearly went into this article! ErleGrey 23:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
This must surely be somewhat limiting. My family on both sides were Gaelic speakers in the District of Assiniboia, later the Province of Saskatchewan; their roots were respectively in Ontario and eastern Quebec, yes, but clearly they briefly brought the language with them. I well recall great aunts and uncles in the 1970s giggling about the fact that all they could now remember were swear words; but the policy of corporal punishment in school for speaking it certainly also pertained there and it seems unlikely there would have been any such policy if instances of its being spoken were rare. Masalai ( talk) 00:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Pugwash has a population of gaelic speaking residents. All the road sings are in both english and gaelic, but Pugwash isn't mentioned in the article nor placed on the map. Perhaps it's too small, but Pugwash has quite the history. What do you guys thing? Notible enough for inclusion or even a mention? QBasicer ( talk) 04:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The title Gàidhlig Chanaideanach and the IPA [ˈkɑːlʲəˈ kanatanax] don't seem to match at all... I can see how /ligʲ/ might be a syllable that gets simplified but /lʲə/ look decidedly odd and the lack of lenition and the vowels in /kanatanax/ look fishy too and I'm tempted to redo them according to normal Gaelic pronunciation. Also, the Phonology section uses the Celticist (well, I assume it's the Celticist symbols) N and L - which would need changing to normal IPA. Also, the /r/ isn't clear - is this strong initial /R/ or single slender /r/ - given the comment about the environment I suspect this is orthographic single broad r which can be strengthened to /R/ followed by / ʃ / - though that's techically more of a retroflex /ʂ/. I'm curious, where does this data come from?
Why all the weird spacing of quoted letters: “ l ”? 139.68.134.1 ( talk) 21:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the expansion since this became GA has been uncited. This article needs more citations for non-obvious claims to remain as a GA. Yob Mod 16:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
As there has been no reponse to the template, tags or talk page about this article not meeting GA critteria for more than a week, i am starting a reassessment, per the GA request.
Major problems:
My sense is that the author(s)is/are promoting this page under the auspices of the private organization Comhairle na Gàidhlig in Nova Scotia. Note that the page lists the "regulator" not just of the wikipedia entry, but of so-called Canadian Gaelic itself as Comhairle na Gàidhlig. In fact, there is no official regulator of Scots Gaelic in Nova Scotia, Canada or anywhere else. What is also troubling here is that there seems to be a distinct agenda involved with respect to the implication that "Canadian" Gaelic is largely indistinguishable from "Cape Breton" Gaelic and that these, in turn, are linguistically and phonemically distinct enough from dialects currently spoken in Scotland to collectively constitute a single separate language. The Canadian/Cape Breton conflation notwithstanding, the evidence given in support of linguistic distinctions is modest at best: It is limited to 1.) favoring one set of dialect features in Nova Scotia (features which are, interestingly, still viable in certain regions of Scotland) to the exclusion of others, 2. listing a handful of English verbs obviously just rendered into Gaelic verbal nouns, and 3.) including a short list of Gaelic nouns supposedly unique to Cape Breton/Canada. Of the three features, the latter presents the strongest case; however, while distinct vocabularies are a feature of vernaculars, the list is not extensive enough and, in at least one example, spurious: mogans. Mogans were actually the name brand in English of an ankle sock with a rubberized bottom which were quite popular in Cape Breton in the 1960s. The word is not common among either English or Gaelic speakers today other than those from the era when they were sold. Thus, in all likelihood, the term would be evidence of an antiquated loan word. In short, the topic demands a far more rigorous examination of the distinction between dialects, vernaculars and languages and more willingness on the part of the promoters to engage peer reviews by means other than censoring changes to the main page and then justifying it through quibbling. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 16:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how stating "that" you disagree is germaine to any of the edits. The attempt to sneak in the CnG as a regulating authority is simply the most embarrassing aspect of the original page and even that was only acknowledged after the last edits were changed back verbatim. Deliberate manipulation of the content to promote a CnG agenda is, I believe, a violation of the terms of use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancumhachdgasta ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
It is more polite to list comments from the most recent to the least recent. The movement of the comments to the bottom of the page where they appeared to have been buried, renaming them "criticism" and then reverting the main page to its original form without addressing the comments is what constitutes bad manners.
Tha teanga ionadail a' ciallachadh dualchainnt. Coimhead air Stòr-Data Briathrachais. Chan ann dèanta suas a tha e idir. Tha iomadh teanga ionadail ann an Ceap Breatainn, ach thèid iad uile air an lorg ann an Alba cuideachd. Dè tha an reusan gun smaoinich thu gu bheil Gàidhlig ann an Canada cànan diofraichte? Air an adhbhar gu bheil "glug" ann an Eilean na Nollaige? Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 13:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Your remarks still do not address any of the issues raised in the original post. Instead, you continue to provide more distractions, such as how you didn't insert the reference to a direct link to CnG, how you feel that we must not use Gaelic here, how you don't have to use a dictionary, how you believe that "teanga" is featured more in Irish, how some Canadian dialects "may" be conservative, and so on. The only point that begins to address the problem of whether this page seeks to manufacture a "Canadian" Gaelic is contained in the quote "neither me [sic] nor any other editor was [ever] trying to maintain that Canadian Gaelic was a distinct language". However, this follows the assertion that "[you] were querying the use [of teanga] as a name for the language. That is, in one instance, you appear to think of Canadian Gaelic as a language, but when you are called on to demonstrate how it qualifies as such, you retreat from that position. You can't have it both ways. More importantly, again, the page fails consistently to demonstrate not only what Canadian Gaelic is, but whether it is even worthwhile to postulate that Scots Gaelic in Canada is just anglicized in some interesting, but largely trivial ways. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 21:06, 22 March 2010 (UTC) (talk) 21:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Note that the page has been reverted back to its original, complete with the CnG as the regulating body.
Clearly it's the case that in Scotland "Scots Gaelic" is the language that is being promoted. This is done with the understanding that there are dialects in Lewis, Argyll, Arran and so on, none of which (in principle anyway) receive special preference or require formal public and/or legal acknowledgement in order to be recognized. In Nova Scotia, the situation is the same, with the Office of Gaelic Affairs having a mandate to fund programs which promote the language in a way which acknowledges colloquialisms and regional distinctions found in Nova Scotia. Yes, there are colloquialisms and regional distinctions, but the way in which the term "Canadian Gaelic" is approached seeks to imply that 1: Gaelic as spoken in Canada constitutes an easily recognizable if not a standardized set of variations which qualify it as distinct enough to be thought as as not Scots Gaelic in Canada but Canadian Gaelic and that 2: these differences are limited to the biased set of phonetic "features" listed. In fact, those features listed have not been demonstrated to be unique to Canada at all and certainly are not sufficient to reach the conclusions that they constitute something substantially "other". Incidentally, why anyone would want to?
Oy. There is no point quibbling about "teanga". Substitute "dualchainnt" if it suits your fancy, but cànan when applied to some imagined generic Canadian Gaelic is not appropriate.
'S coma leam.
Well, interestingly, with the parameters that you've outlined here, it is at least more reasonable now to consider that term. Apprently the CnG doesn't agree, though, because they're hell-bent on imagining themselves as the gatekeepers of a single dialect of Scots Gaelic spoken in a couple areas in Cape Breton which they pretend constitutes "Canadian Gaelic". Again, the features mentioned do not distinguish it as a generic Canadian variant. There is no generic, unified, standardized or singularly recognizable variant of Scots Gaelic in Canada. Instead, there is South Uist Gaelic in Christmas Island with occasional colloquialisms, a plethora of loan words, and heavily anglicized phonetic features. On the North Shore you can find, among others, Harris Gaelic with occasional colloquialisms, loan words and heavily anglicized phonetics. Do you see?
There is no reason that all of the distinctions, and there are some important ones, can't be celebrated without having to drive a wedge between speakers of Scots Gaelic in Scotland and speakers of Scots Gaelic in Canada or anywhere else in the world! The page needs to be honest about its agenda. I don't believe it is and that's likely one reason why it has been delisted. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 15:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Your transliteration is what is flawed, not the use of either teanga or dualchainnt. There is no need for a separate page called British English. It would best be subsumed under the page English Language. Within that page, we'd have the subheadings United Kingdom, America, Canada. Under UK we'd have Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, etc. Under England we'd have "British Standard English or Queen's English", "London English", etc. Under "London English" we'd have "West End", "East End", etc., where we could discuss those variations.
Ancumhachdgasta, I have reverted your edits — and because I hate it whenever my edits are reverted, I want you to understand why I felt it was necessary, and hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement here. I think you’re the first gaelic-speaking Canadian to get involved with the page, thank you for taking an interest!
A bull headed insistence that you're right because you can accuse me of an "ignorance of basic linguistic understanding" isn't helping your case. Stop acting like a child in a sandbox who wants to have his way. Scholarship requires thoughtful insight, Akerbeltz, and cooperation. You're simply trying to dictate. To be honest, you need to step back and let someone more qualified than you, myself included, participate. It's not all about you. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 13:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I got about halfway through this before losing the stomach for it. Argumentation is not a substitute for discussion. Ancumhachdgasta, blind reversion to known errors, such as the broken link, is not appropriate. Edit warring is not appropriate. Personal attacks are not appropriate, and wouldn't be even if they weren't hypocritical ("acting like a child in a sandbox who wants to have his way"). Please discuss this; if you can't play in the sandbox together you'll get put in time out (blocked). kwami ( talk) 15:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. A Chumhachd, don’t delete my signature from my posts on this discussion page — it inhibits clarity. Also, I have told you that there is no CnaG connection nor prejudice, but you continue going back to your original supposition. Why? Additionally, you’ve heard evidence supporting the reasoning behind the article title, but you continue to revisit this without supplying references. Why? Use sources, be respectful, or get banned.
The thing that kills me is that, if you are fluent in Canadian gaelic you could be contributing to this page in a number of constructive ways: at the bottom of the article I have linked to scores of documents and videos in authentic Canadian Gaelic, and I can’t understand any of them. You could be watching interviews with Joe Neil MacNeil or reading issues of Mac Talla and add any lexical innovations you find. That’s certainly what I’d be doing, instead of indulging in this destruction.
The fact that your edits are destructive is self-evident: Review comparison between edit histories here. Breakdown of select edits follows:
That’s at least 9 edits crying out for revision in the first section and the lead alone. Your love affair with the run-on sentence is preventing this page from ever re-attaining “Good Status”.
Sutor ne supra crepidam. Use sources, be respectful, or get banned. —Muckapedia 19:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Here’s my position: 1) This page has existed for 5 years, predicated on the belief that Scottish Gaelic as it exists in Canada, due to a unique history, culture, lexicon and phonology, is worthy of an article. 2) That article, because of previously cited linguistic precedent and conforming to the standard set by similar articles, has been styled “Canadian Gaelic”. 3) The distinction between a language and a dialect is notoriously liquid, however no-one here asserts that Canadian Gaelic constitutes a language in its own right. Use of the word language within the article refers to “Scottish Gaelic as it is spoken in Canada”. The term Canadian Gaelic refers — transparently — to whatever Gaelic is Canadian; that is, the Gaelic that is spoken by Canadians, in Canada, and transmitting a unique Canadian culture, whatever that may be, and irrespective of how many further dialects it may contain.
The spelling of placenames is not “frigged”, it is the exact same as it is on the referring website. If that site has a problem, fine, change it, that’s okay because that’s what Wikipedia is here for. Just be sure to cite your sources. Edits must be a synthesis of sourced research and scholarship, and supplied with citations. It’s for the editors to ban users, not me, and as you have already been accused of edit warring twice by an editor, yes, you run the serious risk of being banned.
The assumption of good faith is a pillar of Wikipedia. Your very first discussion post was an accusation claiming contributors were politically motivated by including some committee — you’ve been told this isn’t the case, but you keep going back to it. You’ve mentioned it more than ten times, and I don’t understand why. I have no agenda, I just don’t understand why your only contribution to Wikipedia has been defaming the good faith of important contributors to this page. I know its not the “MuckyAker” show, it’s the “cited research and hard work” show. I have no credentials, I’m just the guy who created the page and tried to improve it for the past five years — but Akerbeltz is a highly respected authority on Gaelic and if he doesn’t resent your lumping his name in with mine then I do. Everything written on this page that isn’t about citing sources and following precedent is complete bunkum.
Lastly, I’m sick of you marking-up my commentary, it’s disrespectful. Please add your responses below the comments of others, not within. If you edit my comments I will have to revert the discussion, and no one wants to get into that. I apologise if you took offence to my characterisation of the current dispute as “Cumachd’s Edit War” — I have renamed the section accordingly. Also, because you are nesting your responses within archival threads on this page going back 5 years, and not signing all of your posts, I have highlighted those posts green in the interest of clarity —Muckapedia 20:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I think User:dwindlespin is a Wikipedia:sock_puppet. On an unrelated note, does anyone know if the preferred term is “goidelophone”, “gaelophone”, or something else?—Muckapedia 14:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This is not the only single malt whisky made outside Scotland. Bushmills 10-year-old Single Malt, from Northern Ireland, and Suntory's Yamazaki, which is made in Japan, are two others. There are others made in Australia and elsewhere. Perhaps "one of a number of single malt whiskies" might be more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.20.82 ( talk) 23:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
As a learner and enthusiast of Gaelic I have always been interested in the now extinct dialects of formerly Gaelic speaking areas in Scotland. Very recently I visited Cape Breton island and discussed Gaelic with Gaelic speakers on the island. It became clear from listening to the speakers and and their accounts of Gaelic on the island that Canadian Gaelic is now a beautiful hodge podge of old extinct and surviving dialects. This can be separated further however into idiolects which contain traits from the dialects spoken by their ancestors, as well as newly evolved dialectal regions such as the north shore where dialects that have developed from Lewis Gaelic are now spoken. The point is that it's not like you can go to cape Breton and hear dead dialects like it's a highland time capsule, the dialects have actually mixed and changed to create a broad collection of dialects that are unique to Nova Scotia/Cape Breton - i.e. Canadian Gaelic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.243.42.162 ( talk) 01:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I would recommend contacting the Gaelic College of Arts and Crafts on Cape Breton Island via email or letter. They have several Gaelic instructors who have conducted research into Canadian Gaelic on Cape Breton, they may have some texts you could use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.250.129 ( talk) 12:16, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
It is known that a substantial number of Scottish Gaelic-speaking settlers, almost entirely from the Isle of Lewis, settled in Quebec in areas such as Stornoway and Scotstown. There are several books written on the subject of the Gaelic in Quebec, the most notable (to my mind) being "Oatmeal and the Catechism" by Margaret Bennett, a respected authority on the history of Scottish Gaelic in Scotland and abroad. If I recall correctly, the book indicated that although Gaelic declined and ultimately withered away to nothing in the province, the language held on until roughly the 1960s-70s when the last Scottish Gaelic church services were held in certain key Highland-Quebecois settlements.
Many Quebecois Gaels apparently moved to the United States (Seattle) as they faced hardship in the province, rather than to other Gaelic-speaking areas such as Nova Scotia or Cape Breton Island. The descendants of these Quebecois Gaels subsequently lost their Gaelic and are now wholly assimilated, and although at least one man in the early 20th century was a self-styled "Gaelic bard" from Seattle, he largely wrote in English.
I believe that this would be a worthy expansion of the article, although I am unsure of exactly how to go about adding this information (with reference to the sources). Does anyone have an opinion on the subject?
-- Breatannach ( talk) 12:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
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I do not think any of the sources in the article take into account Indigenous peoples or their languages. No information or data in the current sources even consider Indigenous peoples, let alone can definitively say there were more Gaelic language speakers in Canada than any of the main Indigenous languages such as Cree, Algonquin, Ojibwe, Inuktitut etc.
I think any statements should be prefaced with "European" - i.e. "Gaelic was the third most spoken European language in Canada at the time".
Certainly in this day and age I don't think I need to get into the details of why excluding Indigenous peoples from the written record of Canadian history is problematic, but happy to go there if some people still require this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adcspider ( talk • contribs) 14:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I've removed this from the article:
I'm sure it's supposed to mean something but as is it's complete nonsense. [C]ommonwealth English monarchy is a contradiction in terms and if it means anything at all it's presumably referring to the 1600s, not the 1900s. Plus there wasn't any exiling going on at the time. Peter Grey ( talk) 03:05, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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![]() | Canadian Gaelic was one of the Language and literature good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
I have located a document that lists several different Gaelic lexical items unique to Canada here but unfortunately it's a scholarly journal and I can't access the information. Strangely, however, searching through google returns one or two words, so piece-by-piece I am putting together a list. If anyone has access to this journal site (JSTOR) please find out these terms! — Muckapædia 6e mai 2007, 2h12 (UTC+0900) 머크백과 tǂ c
Should this page not be called ' Scots Gaelic in Canada' ? There is no dialect difference between scots gaelic in canada and in scotland.. infact cape breton is said to have preserved local gaelic dialects from scotland (eg: the barra accent) better than in scotland...
Swingbeaver 03h41, 21 August 2005 (GMT-5h00) says:
The Gaelic name was given as Gàidhlig na Canada, which is ungrammatical in Gaelic because Canada is a masculine noun (na is the feminine genitive singular form of the definite article), and it doesn't take the definite article anyway. I changed it to Gàidhlig Chanada, which is grammatically correct, but that is still a neologism and has no Google hits. Probably Gaelic speakers would just call it Gàidhlig ann an Canada ("Gaelic in Canada") or Gàidhlig na h-Alba ann an Canada ("Scottish Gaelic in Canada"). -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 19:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Again, this page has been renamed to "Canadian Gaelic" in accordance with Wikipedia article naming conventions. Currently there are four articles which exist on Wikipedia that describe European languages with Canadian dialects: French, English, Ukranian and Gaelic. The titles of the first three articles are Canadian French, Canadian English, and Canadian Ukrainian.
The special problem with Gaelic is that there are (at least) two distinct living versions ( Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, classified as separate languages by some, seperate dialects by others), and the version pertinent to this article is Scottish Gaelic. By not putting "Scottish" in the title of the article, it becomes ambiguous to some.
It should not be, however, for the following reasons:
A name which would be in a similar vein to Canadian French, Canadian English, Canadian Ukrainian etc would be Canadian Scottish Gaelic. French, English and Ukrainian are all specific languages while Gaelic, regardless of how the term may be used colloquially, refers to a language grouping. The title Canadian Gaelic is misleading and is the equivalent of naming the article on French in Canada Canadian Romance/ English in Canada Canadian Germanic. siarach 11:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
In Cape Breton Scots Gaelic is often referred to simply as Gaelic, but the particular areas in Scotland where the dialects came from are often referred to in Cape Breton as well. No one speaks of "Canadian Gaelic". Instead, older speakers will explain that their dialect is South Uist dialect, or Harris dialect, or Lewis dialect. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 14:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I have to say I agree with MacRusgail and siarach that we should change the title to the article to "Canadian Scottish Gaelic". Regardless of what your personal perception of the language is, Scottish Gaelic is seen by linguists as being a distinct language from Irish and Manx. I have NEVER heard any scholarly argument to the contrary. Various Arabic dialects may not be perceived this way, but this article isn't about Arabic so that's irrelevant. For instance, Maltese is no more distinct from standard Arabic than colloquial dialects of the latter language. Does that mean that if, hypothetically, there were a dialect of the former language indigenous to Canada we should call it "Canadian Arabic"? Of course not because Maltese is seen as a distinct language. Same with Scottish Gaelic, just because it could, when compared to say Arabic or Kurdish, be considered a dialect of a hypothetical pan-Gaelic language doesn't mean that it is and the name of this article should reflect that.
"Canadian Scottish Gaelic" is not ambiguous as "Scottish Gaelic" is the name of the language, adding "Canadian" just tells you where the dialect is spoken. Any argument that it's ambiguous is equivalent to saying that "Canadian French" is ambiguous as it might lead someone to believe it's spoken in France. Crazygraham ( talk) 23:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment I support any move away from "Canadian Gaelic" to something including the word Scottish. In Scotland it seems to be common to devalue the language by relieving it of the national adjective, something Irish and Manx Gaels don't put up with. And that's the other reason - Manx and Irish are Gaelic too, and Irish has been spoken in Canada. Sure, it's different from the language in Scotland, but so's "Canadian French" and "Canadian English" (although the latter isn't hugely differently).-- MacRusgail 17:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The portions of the article written by myself adhere generally to endonymic language conventions. Multiple names in the article have been supplied in their Gaelic forms --- this has been done in situations where the person's first language was Gaelic, and so their native name (read: true name) was originally Gaelic. For an analagous situation in Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Irish Orthography in naming people — Muckapædia 3h00, 2e Novembre 2006 (GMT +9h00)
"It is estimated more than 50 000 Gaelic settlers immigrated to Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island during this period, the last ship arriving in 1840."[9]
The source referenced there doesn't actually say the last ship arrived in 1840. What it actually says is that Scottish emigration to North America was fairly constant from 1815-1870. Perhaps the person who contributed the above meant 1870 instead of 1840, but my sketchy knowledge of history won't permit me to say for sure whether the last ship really did arrive in 1870.
The source referenced above refers to North America as a whole, but I think the date of 1840 is also wrong if applied only to Nova Scotia and Cape Breton. Some of my Gaelic-speaking MacLeod ancestors arrived in Nova Scotia on a ship called the John and Robert in 1843 (they'd left Tobermory on the Catherine but had to change ships in Belfast). I've changed the date from 1840 to between 1815 and 1870. Iordan MacBheatha 02:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is well written and comprehensive. I would even go as far to say that, with a bit of expansion, it would be FA-material. A lot of very good work clearly went into this article! ErleGrey 23:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
This must surely be somewhat limiting. My family on both sides were Gaelic speakers in the District of Assiniboia, later the Province of Saskatchewan; their roots were respectively in Ontario and eastern Quebec, yes, but clearly they briefly brought the language with them. I well recall great aunts and uncles in the 1970s giggling about the fact that all they could now remember were swear words; but the policy of corporal punishment in school for speaking it certainly also pertained there and it seems unlikely there would have been any such policy if instances of its being spoken were rare. Masalai ( talk) 00:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Pugwash has a population of gaelic speaking residents. All the road sings are in both english and gaelic, but Pugwash isn't mentioned in the article nor placed on the map. Perhaps it's too small, but Pugwash has quite the history. What do you guys thing? Notible enough for inclusion or even a mention? QBasicer ( talk) 04:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The title Gàidhlig Chanaideanach and the IPA [ˈkɑːlʲəˈ kanatanax] don't seem to match at all... I can see how /ligʲ/ might be a syllable that gets simplified but /lʲə/ look decidedly odd and the lack of lenition and the vowels in /kanatanax/ look fishy too and I'm tempted to redo them according to normal Gaelic pronunciation. Also, the Phonology section uses the Celticist (well, I assume it's the Celticist symbols) N and L - which would need changing to normal IPA. Also, the /r/ isn't clear - is this strong initial /R/ or single slender /r/ - given the comment about the environment I suspect this is orthographic single broad r which can be strengthened to /R/ followed by / ʃ / - though that's techically more of a retroflex /ʂ/. I'm curious, where does this data come from?
Why all the weird spacing of quoted letters: “ l ”? 139.68.134.1 ( talk) 21:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the expansion since this became GA has been uncited. This article needs more citations for non-obvious claims to remain as a GA. Yob Mod 16:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
As there has been no reponse to the template, tags or talk page about this article not meeting GA critteria for more than a week, i am starting a reassessment, per the GA request.
Major problems:
My sense is that the author(s)is/are promoting this page under the auspices of the private organization Comhairle na Gàidhlig in Nova Scotia. Note that the page lists the "regulator" not just of the wikipedia entry, but of so-called Canadian Gaelic itself as Comhairle na Gàidhlig. In fact, there is no official regulator of Scots Gaelic in Nova Scotia, Canada or anywhere else. What is also troubling here is that there seems to be a distinct agenda involved with respect to the implication that "Canadian" Gaelic is largely indistinguishable from "Cape Breton" Gaelic and that these, in turn, are linguistically and phonemically distinct enough from dialects currently spoken in Scotland to collectively constitute a single separate language. The Canadian/Cape Breton conflation notwithstanding, the evidence given in support of linguistic distinctions is modest at best: It is limited to 1.) favoring one set of dialect features in Nova Scotia (features which are, interestingly, still viable in certain regions of Scotland) to the exclusion of others, 2. listing a handful of English verbs obviously just rendered into Gaelic verbal nouns, and 3.) including a short list of Gaelic nouns supposedly unique to Cape Breton/Canada. Of the three features, the latter presents the strongest case; however, while distinct vocabularies are a feature of vernaculars, the list is not extensive enough and, in at least one example, spurious: mogans. Mogans were actually the name brand in English of an ankle sock with a rubberized bottom which were quite popular in Cape Breton in the 1960s. The word is not common among either English or Gaelic speakers today other than those from the era when they were sold. Thus, in all likelihood, the term would be evidence of an antiquated loan word. In short, the topic demands a far more rigorous examination of the distinction between dialects, vernaculars and languages and more willingness on the part of the promoters to engage peer reviews by means other than censoring changes to the main page and then justifying it through quibbling. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 16:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how stating "that" you disagree is germaine to any of the edits. The attempt to sneak in the CnG as a regulating authority is simply the most embarrassing aspect of the original page and even that was only acknowledged after the last edits were changed back verbatim. Deliberate manipulation of the content to promote a CnG agenda is, I believe, a violation of the terms of use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancumhachdgasta ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
It is more polite to list comments from the most recent to the least recent. The movement of the comments to the bottom of the page where they appeared to have been buried, renaming them "criticism" and then reverting the main page to its original form without addressing the comments is what constitutes bad manners.
Tha teanga ionadail a' ciallachadh dualchainnt. Coimhead air Stòr-Data Briathrachais. Chan ann dèanta suas a tha e idir. Tha iomadh teanga ionadail ann an Ceap Breatainn, ach thèid iad uile air an lorg ann an Alba cuideachd. Dè tha an reusan gun smaoinich thu gu bheil Gàidhlig ann an Canada cànan diofraichte? Air an adhbhar gu bheil "glug" ann an Eilean na Nollaige? Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 13:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Your remarks still do not address any of the issues raised in the original post. Instead, you continue to provide more distractions, such as how you didn't insert the reference to a direct link to CnG, how you feel that we must not use Gaelic here, how you don't have to use a dictionary, how you believe that "teanga" is featured more in Irish, how some Canadian dialects "may" be conservative, and so on. The only point that begins to address the problem of whether this page seeks to manufacture a "Canadian" Gaelic is contained in the quote "neither me [sic] nor any other editor was [ever] trying to maintain that Canadian Gaelic was a distinct language". However, this follows the assertion that "[you] were querying the use [of teanga] as a name for the language. That is, in one instance, you appear to think of Canadian Gaelic as a language, but when you are called on to demonstrate how it qualifies as such, you retreat from that position. You can't have it both ways. More importantly, again, the page fails consistently to demonstrate not only what Canadian Gaelic is, but whether it is even worthwhile to postulate that Scots Gaelic in Canada is just anglicized in some interesting, but largely trivial ways. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 21:06, 22 March 2010 (UTC) (talk) 21:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Note that the page has been reverted back to its original, complete with the CnG as the regulating body.
Clearly it's the case that in Scotland "Scots Gaelic" is the language that is being promoted. This is done with the understanding that there are dialects in Lewis, Argyll, Arran and so on, none of which (in principle anyway) receive special preference or require formal public and/or legal acknowledgement in order to be recognized. In Nova Scotia, the situation is the same, with the Office of Gaelic Affairs having a mandate to fund programs which promote the language in a way which acknowledges colloquialisms and regional distinctions found in Nova Scotia. Yes, there are colloquialisms and regional distinctions, but the way in which the term "Canadian Gaelic" is approached seeks to imply that 1: Gaelic as spoken in Canada constitutes an easily recognizable if not a standardized set of variations which qualify it as distinct enough to be thought as as not Scots Gaelic in Canada but Canadian Gaelic and that 2: these differences are limited to the biased set of phonetic "features" listed. In fact, those features listed have not been demonstrated to be unique to Canada at all and certainly are not sufficient to reach the conclusions that they constitute something substantially "other". Incidentally, why anyone would want to?
Oy. There is no point quibbling about "teanga". Substitute "dualchainnt" if it suits your fancy, but cànan when applied to some imagined generic Canadian Gaelic is not appropriate.
'S coma leam.
Well, interestingly, with the parameters that you've outlined here, it is at least more reasonable now to consider that term. Apprently the CnG doesn't agree, though, because they're hell-bent on imagining themselves as the gatekeepers of a single dialect of Scots Gaelic spoken in a couple areas in Cape Breton which they pretend constitutes "Canadian Gaelic". Again, the features mentioned do not distinguish it as a generic Canadian variant. There is no generic, unified, standardized or singularly recognizable variant of Scots Gaelic in Canada. Instead, there is South Uist Gaelic in Christmas Island with occasional colloquialisms, a plethora of loan words, and heavily anglicized phonetic features. On the North Shore you can find, among others, Harris Gaelic with occasional colloquialisms, loan words and heavily anglicized phonetics. Do you see?
There is no reason that all of the distinctions, and there are some important ones, can't be celebrated without having to drive a wedge between speakers of Scots Gaelic in Scotland and speakers of Scots Gaelic in Canada or anywhere else in the world! The page needs to be honest about its agenda. I don't believe it is and that's likely one reason why it has been delisted. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 15:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Your transliteration is what is flawed, not the use of either teanga or dualchainnt. There is no need for a separate page called British English. It would best be subsumed under the page English Language. Within that page, we'd have the subheadings United Kingdom, America, Canada. Under UK we'd have Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, etc. Under England we'd have "British Standard English or Queen's English", "London English", etc. Under "London English" we'd have "West End", "East End", etc., where we could discuss those variations.
Ancumhachdgasta, I have reverted your edits — and because I hate it whenever my edits are reverted, I want you to understand why I felt it was necessary, and hopefully we can come to some sort of agreement here. I think you’re the first gaelic-speaking Canadian to get involved with the page, thank you for taking an interest!
A bull headed insistence that you're right because you can accuse me of an "ignorance of basic linguistic understanding" isn't helping your case. Stop acting like a child in a sandbox who wants to have his way. Scholarship requires thoughtful insight, Akerbeltz, and cooperation. You're simply trying to dictate. To be honest, you need to step back and let someone more qualified than you, myself included, participate. It's not all about you. Ancumhachdgasta ( talk) 13:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I got about halfway through this before losing the stomach for it. Argumentation is not a substitute for discussion. Ancumhachdgasta, blind reversion to known errors, such as the broken link, is not appropriate. Edit warring is not appropriate. Personal attacks are not appropriate, and wouldn't be even if they weren't hypocritical ("acting like a child in a sandbox who wants to have his way"). Please discuss this; if you can't play in the sandbox together you'll get put in time out (blocked). kwami ( talk) 15:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. A Chumhachd, don’t delete my signature from my posts on this discussion page — it inhibits clarity. Also, I have told you that there is no CnaG connection nor prejudice, but you continue going back to your original supposition. Why? Additionally, you’ve heard evidence supporting the reasoning behind the article title, but you continue to revisit this without supplying references. Why? Use sources, be respectful, or get banned.
The thing that kills me is that, if you are fluent in Canadian gaelic you could be contributing to this page in a number of constructive ways: at the bottom of the article I have linked to scores of documents and videos in authentic Canadian Gaelic, and I can’t understand any of them. You could be watching interviews with Joe Neil MacNeil or reading issues of Mac Talla and add any lexical innovations you find. That’s certainly what I’d be doing, instead of indulging in this destruction.
The fact that your edits are destructive is self-evident: Review comparison between edit histories here. Breakdown of select edits follows:
That’s at least 9 edits crying out for revision in the first section and the lead alone. Your love affair with the run-on sentence is preventing this page from ever re-attaining “Good Status”.
Sutor ne supra crepidam. Use sources, be respectful, or get banned. —Muckapedia 19:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Here’s my position: 1) This page has existed for 5 years, predicated on the belief that Scottish Gaelic as it exists in Canada, due to a unique history, culture, lexicon and phonology, is worthy of an article. 2) That article, because of previously cited linguistic precedent and conforming to the standard set by similar articles, has been styled “Canadian Gaelic”. 3) The distinction between a language and a dialect is notoriously liquid, however no-one here asserts that Canadian Gaelic constitutes a language in its own right. Use of the word language within the article refers to “Scottish Gaelic as it is spoken in Canada”. The term Canadian Gaelic refers — transparently — to whatever Gaelic is Canadian; that is, the Gaelic that is spoken by Canadians, in Canada, and transmitting a unique Canadian culture, whatever that may be, and irrespective of how many further dialects it may contain.
The spelling of placenames is not “frigged”, it is the exact same as it is on the referring website. If that site has a problem, fine, change it, that’s okay because that’s what Wikipedia is here for. Just be sure to cite your sources. Edits must be a synthesis of sourced research and scholarship, and supplied with citations. It’s for the editors to ban users, not me, and as you have already been accused of edit warring twice by an editor, yes, you run the serious risk of being banned.
The assumption of good faith is a pillar of Wikipedia. Your very first discussion post was an accusation claiming contributors were politically motivated by including some committee — you’ve been told this isn’t the case, but you keep going back to it. You’ve mentioned it more than ten times, and I don’t understand why. I have no agenda, I just don’t understand why your only contribution to Wikipedia has been defaming the good faith of important contributors to this page. I know its not the “MuckyAker” show, it’s the “cited research and hard work” show. I have no credentials, I’m just the guy who created the page and tried to improve it for the past five years — but Akerbeltz is a highly respected authority on Gaelic and if he doesn’t resent your lumping his name in with mine then I do. Everything written on this page that isn’t about citing sources and following precedent is complete bunkum.
Lastly, I’m sick of you marking-up my commentary, it’s disrespectful. Please add your responses below the comments of others, not within. If you edit my comments I will have to revert the discussion, and no one wants to get into that. I apologise if you took offence to my characterisation of the current dispute as “Cumachd’s Edit War” — I have renamed the section accordingly. Also, because you are nesting your responses within archival threads on this page going back 5 years, and not signing all of your posts, I have highlighted those posts green in the interest of clarity —Muckapedia 20:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I think User:dwindlespin is a Wikipedia:sock_puppet. On an unrelated note, does anyone know if the preferred term is “goidelophone”, “gaelophone”, or something else?—Muckapedia 14:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This is not the only single malt whisky made outside Scotland. Bushmills 10-year-old Single Malt, from Northern Ireland, and Suntory's Yamazaki, which is made in Japan, are two others. There are others made in Australia and elsewhere. Perhaps "one of a number of single malt whiskies" might be more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.20.82 ( talk) 23:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
As a learner and enthusiast of Gaelic I have always been interested in the now extinct dialects of formerly Gaelic speaking areas in Scotland. Very recently I visited Cape Breton island and discussed Gaelic with Gaelic speakers on the island. It became clear from listening to the speakers and and their accounts of Gaelic on the island that Canadian Gaelic is now a beautiful hodge podge of old extinct and surviving dialects. This can be separated further however into idiolects which contain traits from the dialects spoken by their ancestors, as well as newly evolved dialectal regions such as the north shore where dialects that have developed from Lewis Gaelic are now spoken. The point is that it's not like you can go to cape Breton and hear dead dialects like it's a highland time capsule, the dialects have actually mixed and changed to create a broad collection of dialects that are unique to Nova Scotia/Cape Breton - i.e. Canadian Gaelic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.243.42.162 ( talk) 01:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I would recommend contacting the Gaelic College of Arts and Crafts on Cape Breton Island via email or letter. They have several Gaelic instructors who have conducted research into Canadian Gaelic on Cape Breton, they may have some texts you could use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.250.129 ( talk) 12:16, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
It is known that a substantial number of Scottish Gaelic-speaking settlers, almost entirely from the Isle of Lewis, settled in Quebec in areas such as Stornoway and Scotstown. There are several books written on the subject of the Gaelic in Quebec, the most notable (to my mind) being "Oatmeal and the Catechism" by Margaret Bennett, a respected authority on the history of Scottish Gaelic in Scotland and abroad. If I recall correctly, the book indicated that although Gaelic declined and ultimately withered away to nothing in the province, the language held on until roughly the 1960s-70s when the last Scottish Gaelic church services were held in certain key Highland-Quebecois settlements.
Many Quebecois Gaels apparently moved to the United States (Seattle) as they faced hardship in the province, rather than to other Gaelic-speaking areas such as Nova Scotia or Cape Breton Island. The descendants of these Quebecois Gaels subsequently lost their Gaelic and are now wholly assimilated, and although at least one man in the early 20th century was a self-styled "Gaelic bard" from Seattle, he largely wrote in English.
I believe that this would be a worthy expansion of the article, although I am unsure of exactly how to go about adding this information (with reference to the sources). Does anyone have an opinion on the subject?
-- Breatannach ( talk) 12:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
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I do not think any of the sources in the article take into account Indigenous peoples or their languages. No information or data in the current sources even consider Indigenous peoples, let alone can definitively say there were more Gaelic language speakers in Canada than any of the main Indigenous languages such as Cree, Algonquin, Ojibwe, Inuktitut etc.
I think any statements should be prefaced with "European" - i.e. "Gaelic was the third most spoken European language in Canada at the time".
Certainly in this day and age I don't think I need to get into the details of why excluding Indigenous peoples from the written record of Canadian history is problematic, but happy to go there if some people still require this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adcspider ( talk • contribs) 14:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I've removed this from the article:
I'm sure it's supposed to mean something but as is it's complete nonsense. [C]ommonwealth English monarchy is a contradiction in terms and if it means anything at all it's presumably referring to the 1600s, not the 1900s. Plus there wasn't any exiling going on at the time. Peter Grey ( talk) 03:05, 1 October 2018 (UTC)