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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Could someone please explain what this section of the article is attempting to explain? The idea of extending rights into areas that are not explicit in the Charter is not new, out of the ordinary, or exclusive to the lower courts. Constitutional interpretation since Confederation has followed the "purposive interpretation" doctrine which has always asked the courts to read into constitution beyond its exact wording. "Originalist" constitutional interpretation never had much traction is Canadian law, so I'd question how controversial the issues described in this section really are.
The same-sex marriage issue, in constitutional terms alone, is not a stretch or controversial by any means. Sexual orientation, along with a handful of other grounds, has been read into section 15 -- a practice that has been around since the first days of the Charter -- thus making laws which discriminate on this ground unconstitutional. As well, there's not much of a debate on who has the authority to legislate matters in relation to marriage either. Constitution clearly states that the feds have authority over "Marriage and Divorce".
As for the Sandra Bell v. City of Toronto comment. I'm having trouble following this one too. I'd suggest that controversies regarding specific interpretation of certain sections of the Charter be kept in the article for that particular section and not on the main page.
I think a criticism section is fine but it should be a little more coherent than what is there now. I'd suggest removing this section until something better comes along. Any thoughts? -- PullUpYourSocks 00:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
By the way, in case anyone is wondering as to whether the subarticles (eg. section 1, 2, 3, etc) should be merged into this one, I ran a test merge, using Show Preview, and a merged article would be too long. Like the US Constitution has articles for its Amendments and Articles, those can stand. CanadianCaesar 23:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I have neither the time nor the expertise to fix things, but the bit about the Canadian Bill Of Rights is wrong. As I understand it, the CBoR imposes binding "manner and form" requirements on federal statutes, and courts can (and do) find that laws enacted in contravention of those requirements are of no force. 24.108.233.15 07:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC).
I'm wondering why sections 4 and 5 were ever included in a "Charter of Rights and Freedoms". These aren't "Rights and Freedoms", they're constitutional requirements for the maintenance of the Canadian system of government. As such they should have been ammended to the main body of the "Constition Act", not sloppily included in a "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" at all, as they have nothing to do with "Rights and Freedoms". Loomis51 07:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I understand why these provisions are needed, I just don't feel they belong in the Charter. They belong in the main body of the Constitution. For example in the American Constitution, the functions and workings of the legislative branch are set out in the main body of the constitution, not in the Bill of Rights (although I understand that the legislative branch was affected by further ammendments...by Bill of Rights I'm referring, as everybody else does to the first eight ammendments) Loomis51 13:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, PullUpYourSocks...I'd just like to add how refreshing it is to have a civilised back-and-forth on Wikipedia. So often the pettiest of issues degenerate into name calling. Maybe its because we're Canadian :) Thanks again. Loomis51 10:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Should the picture of the Charter itself be at the top of the page? The contents can be put down later. Habsfan | t 01:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles)#Neither, the title of "legal or constitutional documents" should not be italicized. Personally I find it awkward to see Charter italicized every time, the capital-C is enough. Anyone disagree? -- Mathew5000 07:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
As a Canadian I would like to point out that some of us here in Canada think the Charter is a complete joke. The idea is that we have rights, but they can be limited by the Supreme Court, an unelected body, is beyond sad. If one has a right, why should it be written down - it should be understood and a given. It is written down so that the government and whoever else has the money to take a case to the Supreme Court (which is very expensive) can whittle away our rights. It may look nice on paper but that's about it. DParker
Is it just me, or is there an abundance of Canadian content on Wikipedia, especially as the featured article. I'm not complaining, being Canadian myself (so maybe I am just noticing something cognitive that isnt there), but does anyone else seem to notice this as well? Especially when comparing the relative size of Canada's population to other English speaking countries. Please, no one take offense, I'm just making an observation.
Canada also has the security certificates article in its domain, which has some bearing on the charter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_certificate Rfirla 02:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)rfirla
I can't believe that this article got to FA status with the following statement:
... the Charter has attracted both passionate support from liberals and criticisms by opponents of increased judicial power.
I removed the word "liberals" with the edit summary: "Not only liberals support the Charter." Someone then substituted the word "progressives." That too is misleading. All polls indicate that the Charter has broad-based support in Canada. True there is opposition to it and that is reflected in the second half of the sentence.
I've substituted the former wording with the following statement:
... the Charter has attracted both broad support from a majority of the Canadian electorate and criticisms by opponents of increased judicial power.
If we cannot agree on this, I would suggest that the sentence be removed entirely until we can agree on appropriate wording here. Sunray 07:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the sentence itself -- no matter how it's phrased -- seems to imply that there is a fiercely-raging debate in Canada over the Charter: which isn't the case. When 9/10 people support the document, I don't think we can really call it a "debate". If we're talking about political posturing, I'm for removing the sentence entirely. However, if we're talking about legal-academic arguments, that's a completely different issue. -- Todeswalzer 19:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on the topic, but I felt this part of the article seemed to be lacking as to the usual neutral stance towards political issues you would want to see in wikipedia.
"Nevertheless, Quebec did not ratify the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982), either because it was then led by the uncooperative Parti Québécois or because it felt excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord.[6] The Charter is still applicable in Quebec because all provinces are bound by the Constitution. However, Quebec's formal rejection has led to several failed attempts to amend the Constitution, such as the Meech Lake Accord, which were designed to earn Quebec's approval."
I don't think "uncooperative", used to characterise the Parti Québécois, is appropriate here. The reason for Quebec's not ratifying the charter should not be given as its being led by the Parti Québécois. Perhaps mention could be made as to why the PQ was opposed to the charter. At the very least, it should be stated that the PQ was opposed to or did not agree with the charter. Stating the reason as being simply the fact that it was led by the PQ seems to lack in objectivity. The second part that I find problematic is the "it felt excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord". I know this issue is surrounded by much controversy, at least it still is in Quebec I think, but to my understanding Quebec was excluded from the Kitchen Accord. Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding was that the accord was essentially concluded without the PQ's knowledge, so the "felt excluded" might not be correct. Lastly, I think that to "earn Quebec's approval" makes it sound as though the Meech Accord was designed to please a difficult Quebec. Something in the lines of amending the Constitution so as to include Quebec would seem less partial. Unsigned comment by Darielab 2006-08-02 08:04:55
I would like to remind you that even the Quebec Liberal Party (federalist) was against the kitchen accord and still is... In fact, Quebec had 3 liberal governments (Bourassa 2 times and Charest) and the 1982 constitution is still not signed. Is the Liberal party "uncooperative"? It's definitevely a POV and it's quite off the mark. I would like to remind that the PQ AND the PLQ voted AGAINST the Kitchen Accord in a special motion of the National Assembly (the Quebec house of parliement) because it included none of the "traditionnal Quebec demands". It's also interesting to note that nowhere in this article or in the Kitchen Accord article there's a mention that Quebec was promized a veto and special fiscal rights and that the lost of these advantages in what most Quebeckers call "la nuit des longs couteaux" that sparked anger in Quebec. Uncooperativeness, yeah right. Bad faith? (Source Radio-Canada: http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDC-0-17-982-5730/politique_economie/rapatriement_constitution/clip8) Dominique
CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 18:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a POV. Please. It's not a question of having both sides represented, it's a question of POV vs NPOV. Please, please read this: http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDC-0-17-982-5730/politique_economie/rapatriement_constitution/clip8 You'll see that 111 deputies on 120 voted (and that means all the liberal and PQ Mps!) and named René Levesque as chief negociator for this constitutional round. That's a fact. This article reeks of an antiseparatist bias.
...Whatever. Let's focus on the NPOV statement now. We could replace: "Nevertheless, Quebec did not ratify the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982), either because it was then led by the allegedly uncooperative Parti Québécois or because it was excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord, which the provincial leaders saw as being too centralist" by something like : "Nevertheless, Quebec' representatives refused to endorse the Kitchen accord, and did not ratify the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982)". I find it neutral, in a "state the facts" way, and closes the door to eternal and useless discussions. This is an article about the charter of rights, not about the canadian constitutionnal problems. Dominique
Two points: First, the word "ratify" is wholly wrong for this context. That word suggests a formal approval process that is a component of the document becoming law (similar to the procedure for constitutional amendment in the United States, where any amendment must be ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures before becoming law). For the Canadian situation pre-1982, the word "support" should be used instead of "ratify". Also it should be made clear that in most cases, what is meant is the support of the premier of the province, as opposed to the legislature. Second point: As to the reason why the Premier (and, in this case, legislature) of Quebec did not support the Canada Act 1982, it is highly unsatisfactory to say "because the PQ was uncooperative" or some variation on that. It is also unsatisfactory to say "because Quebec was excluded from the Kitchen Accord", which suggests that Quebec did not have any real objection to the substance of the Canada Act 1982 but merely objected to the manner in which it was developed. In reality, the main reason why Quebec did not support the Canada Act 1982 was because of the new amending formula, and in particular the condition placed on compensation in section 40. -- Mathew5000 01:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It is inaccurate to use the phrase "Quebec's formal rejection". There is no "formal" rejection; Quebec had no formal means to reject the document. All Quebec can do (and all it did) was pass a resolution in its legislature opposing the patriation package. It is also misleading to talk about Quebec's "signature" on the document, for the same reason. There is no place to "sign" it; that's just a political euphemism. Using inaccurate terminology like that just creates confusion. The reality is that the government and legislature of Quebec both expressed their opposition to the Canada Act 1982 (not the Charter specifically, although of course it is included) and have never changed that position. -- Mathew5000 03:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
One other thing about that paragraph. It is peculiar use the phrase "because it was then led by the allegedly uncooperative Parti Québécois". It is analogous to saying something like, "In 2003, Canada did not join the Iraq war because it was then led by the Liberal Party." Yes, it might well be true that if another party had been in power in Ottawa, Canada would have sent troops to fight in Iraq, so in a literal sense you can defend the causative relationship between the Liberals being in power and Canada not having joined the Iraq war. But for encyclopedic purposes, that really just finesses the question of why the Liberal government decided not to join the Iraq war. It does not provide additional useful information to say "Canada did not join the Iraq war because the Liberals were in power and they decided not to join the Iraq war." -- Mathew5000 04:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You're right it no longer does. It says "alledgedly uncooperative" but the point is that this is not an explanation in itself. On another line of thought, the new phrasing of the sentence: "Nevertheless, Quebec did not support the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982), either because it was then led by the allegedly uncooperative Parti Québécois, or because it was excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord, which the provincial leaders saw as being too centralist, or because of objections to its provisions relating to the process of future constitutional amendment.[7]" is unclear. This should be rephrased - perhaps divided into two sentences. Darielab 14:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The phrasing of this section reads just like a piece of anglo-canadian propaganda. It sounds as if Quebec didn't have any reason for refusing to sign the Canadian Charter while there is a clear and rational explanation. (They were excluded from the negociations). It's not because the Parti Quebecois was uncooperative. They had previously participated in the talks and they were not against the canadian charter. I wonder how this became a featured article. 70.80.73.22 22:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the reasons why Quebec did not agree to the constitutional changes and still does not today is not very well known in English-Speaking Canada, probably because of the climate of confrontation between Ottawa and Quebec on everything involving constitutional and national questions.
Normally, I thought it would be easy to find good factual, 100% neutral and boring informations on this topic online, but it seems the materials from the Journal des débats available from the website of the Quebec National Assembly only include recent stuff (between 1992 and today) and old stuff (archives between 1867 and 1933). That's not convenient... Can anyone check to see if maybe I overlooked something? ( http://www.assnat.qc.ca/)
What is available in both English and French from the CBC/Radio-Canada website only scratches the surface but is a start.
In 2001, the governement of Quebec published a document entitled Québec's Positions on Constitutional and Intergovernmental Issues from 1936 to March 2001. It is available in English translation here:
The point of view I am familiar with is this one:
1. Section 16 to 22 were specifically designed to impose Ottawa's POV on language matters, effectively preventing Quebec from implementing its language management policy which is based on the territorial principle and not the personality principle.
2. Quebec was willing to abandon its constitutional veto in exchange for the ability to retract from any federal program with full financial compensation (Opting Out), but ended up losing the first and not getting the second.
3. The ability of one province to have full control over what the constitution defines as "exclusive provincial jurisdictions" cannot be worked around without making a mockery of the principles federalism.
3. Despite differences in the interpretation of the facts between the PQ and the Quebec liberals, both agree on the fundamentals (Quebec as a nation, Ottawa pushing for a unified nation-state against the principles of federalism etc.), hence the reason that Quebec still does not agree to the constitutional move of 1982. -- Mathieugp 04:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "The United States Bill of Rights can be contrasted with the Canadian Charter in that the latter contains a limitations clause and the former does not. The Supreme Court of Canada has consequently approached rights in the Canadian Charter with a view that they are more generous. Conversely, as the US Bill of Rights has no limitations clause or notwithstanding clause, the Supreme Court of the United States must define rights provisions themselves more conservatively."
This sort of convoluted logic is at best counterintuitive and at worst outright spin. Shouldn't the fact that the US Bill of Rights doesn't have similar clauses be evidence that it is, in fact, the more generous document? "Conservative" US Supreme Court decisions can be, and often are, often reversed. On the other hand, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms itself, especially via the notwithstanding clause, essentially gives the government carte blanche to outright suspend a broad swath of rights. The limitations clause merely codifies the traditional US practice of judicial review, but in decidedly negative terms (i.e., determining which laws can get away with infringing rights to a certain extent, as opposed to striking down laws which infringe upon rights too much). -- Jason Jones 09:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
It is inappropriate and POV to refer to Trudeau as "Liberal Attorney General Pierre Trudeau". He was the Attorney General and his party affiliation should not be used as a descriptor in that context.
I didn't see a mention of where the original document is kept. I think this should be included somewhere in the article. Anyone know, and can add? 45°29′15″N 75°40′40″W / 45.48741°N 75.67767°W -- Mathew5000 15:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Could someone please explain what this section of the article is attempting to explain? The idea of extending rights into areas that are not explicit in the Charter is not new, out of the ordinary, or exclusive to the lower courts. Constitutional interpretation since Confederation has followed the "purposive interpretation" doctrine which has always asked the courts to read into constitution beyond its exact wording. "Originalist" constitutional interpretation never had much traction is Canadian law, so I'd question how controversial the issues described in this section really are.
The same-sex marriage issue, in constitutional terms alone, is not a stretch or controversial by any means. Sexual orientation, along with a handful of other grounds, has been read into section 15 -- a practice that has been around since the first days of the Charter -- thus making laws which discriminate on this ground unconstitutional. As well, there's not much of a debate on who has the authority to legislate matters in relation to marriage either. Constitution clearly states that the feds have authority over "Marriage and Divorce".
As for the Sandra Bell v. City of Toronto comment. I'm having trouble following this one too. I'd suggest that controversies regarding specific interpretation of certain sections of the Charter be kept in the article for that particular section and not on the main page.
I think a criticism section is fine but it should be a little more coherent than what is there now. I'd suggest removing this section until something better comes along. Any thoughts? -- PullUpYourSocks 00:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
By the way, in case anyone is wondering as to whether the subarticles (eg. section 1, 2, 3, etc) should be merged into this one, I ran a test merge, using Show Preview, and a merged article would be too long. Like the US Constitution has articles for its Amendments and Articles, those can stand. CanadianCaesar 23:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
I have neither the time nor the expertise to fix things, but the bit about the Canadian Bill Of Rights is wrong. As I understand it, the CBoR imposes binding "manner and form" requirements on federal statutes, and courts can (and do) find that laws enacted in contravention of those requirements are of no force. 24.108.233.15 07:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC).
I'm wondering why sections 4 and 5 were ever included in a "Charter of Rights and Freedoms". These aren't "Rights and Freedoms", they're constitutional requirements for the maintenance of the Canadian system of government. As such they should have been ammended to the main body of the "Constition Act", not sloppily included in a "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" at all, as they have nothing to do with "Rights and Freedoms". Loomis51 07:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I understand why these provisions are needed, I just don't feel they belong in the Charter. They belong in the main body of the Constitution. For example in the American Constitution, the functions and workings of the legislative branch are set out in the main body of the constitution, not in the Bill of Rights (although I understand that the legislative branch was affected by further ammendments...by Bill of Rights I'm referring, as everybody else does to the first eight ammendments) Loomis51 13:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, PullUpYourSocks...I'd just like to add how refreshing it is to have a civilised back-and-forth on Wikipedia. So often the pettiest of issues degenerate into name calling. Maybe its because we're Canadian :) Thanks again. Loomis51 10:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Should the picture of the Charter itself be at the top of the page? The contents can be put down later. Habsfan | t 01:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles)#Neither, the title of "legal or constitutional documents" should not be italicized. Personally I find it awkward to see Charter italicized every time, the capital-C is enough. Anyone disagree? -- Mathew5000 07:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
As a Canadian I would like to point out that some of us here in Canada think the Charter is a complete joke. The idea is that we have rights, but they can be limited by the Supreme Court, an unelected body, is beyond sad. If one has a right, why should it be written down - it should be understood and a given. It is written down so that the government and whoever else has the money to take a case to the Supreme Court (which is very expensive) can whittle away our rights. It may look nice on paper but that's about it. DParker
Is it just me, or is there an abundance of Canadian content on Wikipedia, especially as the featured article. I'm not complaining, being Canadian myself (so maybe I am just noticing something cognitive that isnt there), but does anyone else seem to notice this as well? Especially when comparing the relative size of Canada's population to other English speaking countries. Please, no one take offense, I'm just making an observation.
Canada also has the security certificates article in its domain, which has some bearing on the charter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_certificate Rfirla 02:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)rfirla
I can't believe that this article got to FA status with the following statement:
... the Charter has attracted both passionate support from liberals and criticisms by opponents of increased judicial power.
I removed the word "liberals" with the edit summary: "Not only liberals support the Charter." Someone then substituted the word "progressives." That too is misleading. All polls indicate that the Charter has broad-based support in Canada. True there is opposition to it and that is reflected in the second half of the sentence.
I've substituted the former wording with the following statement:
... the Charter has attracted both broad support from a majority of the Canadian electorate and criticisms by opponents of increased judicial power.
If we cannot agree on this, I would suggest that the sentence be removed entirely until we can agree on appropriate wording here. Sunray 07:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the sentence itself -- no matter how it's phrased -- seems to imply that there is a fiercely-raging debate in Canada over the Charter: which isn't the case. When 9/10 people support the document, I don't think we can really call it a "debate". If we're talking about political posturing, I'm for removing the sentence entirely. However, if we're talking about legal-academic arguments, that's a completely different issue. -- Todeswalzer 19:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on the topic, but I felt this part of the article seemed to be lacking as to the usual neutral stance towards political issues you would want to see in wikipedia.
"Nevertheless, Quebec did not ratify the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982), either because it was then led by the uncooperative Parti Québécois or because it felt excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord.[6] The Charter is still applicable in Quebec because all provinces are bound by the Constitution. However, Quebec's formal rejection has led to several failed attempts to amend the Constitution, such as the Meech Lake Accord, which were designed to earn Quebec's approval."
I don't think "uncooperative", used to characterise the Parti Québécois, is appropriate here. The reason for Quebec's not ratifying the charter should not be given as its being led by the Parti Québécois. Perhaps mention could be made as to why the PQ was opposed to the charter. At the very least, it should be stated that the PQ was opposed to or did not agree with the charter. Stating the reason as being simply the fact that it was led by the PQ seems to lack in objectivity. The second part that I find problematic is the "it felt excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord". I know this issue is surrounded by much controversy, at least it still is in Quebec I think, but to my understanding Quebec was excluded from the Kitchen Accord. Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding was that the accord was essentially concluded without the PQ's knowledge, so the "felt excluded" might not be correct. Lastly, I think that to "earn Quebec's approval" makes it sound as though the Meech Accord was designed to please a difficult Quebec. Something in the lines of amending the Constitution so as to include Quebec would seem less partial. Unsigned comment by Darielab 2006-08-02 08:04:55
I would like to remind you that even the Quebec Liberal Party (federalist) was against the kitchen accord and still is... In fact, Quebec had 3 liberal governments (Bourassa 2 times and Charest) and the 1982 constitution is still not signed. Is the Liberal party "uncooperative"? It's definitevely a POV and it's quite off the mark. I would like to remind that the PQ AND the PLQ voted AGAINST the Kitchen Accord in a special motion of the National Assembly (the Quebec house of parliement) because it included none of the "traditionnal Quebec demands". It's also interesting to note that nowhere in this article or in the Kitchen Accord article there's a mention that Quebec was promized a veto and special fiscal rights and that the lost of these advantages in what most Quebeckers call "la nuit des longs couteaux" that sparked anger in Quebec. Uncooperativeness, yeah right. Bad faith? (Source Radio-Canada: http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDC-0-17-982-5730/politique_economie/rapatriement_constitution/clip8) Dominique
CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 18:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a POV. Please. It's not a question of having both sides represented, it's a question of POV vs NPOV. Please, please read this: http://archives.radio-canada.ca/IDC-0-17-982-5730/politique_economie/rapatriement_constitution/clip8 You'll see that 111 deputies on 120 voted (and that means all the liberal and PQ Mps!) and named René Levesque as chief negociator for this constitutional round. That's a fact. This article reeks of an antiseparatist bias.
...Whatever. Let's focus on the NPOV statement now. We could replace: "Nevertheless, Quebec did not ratify the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982), either because it was then led by the allegedly uncooperative Parti Québécois or because it was excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord, which the provincial leaders saw as being too centralist" by something like : "Nevertheless, Quebec' representatives refused to endorse the Kitchen accord, and did not ratify the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982)". I find it neutral, in a "state the facts" way, and closes the door to eternal and useless discussions. This is an article about the charter of rights, not about the canadian constitutionnal problems. Dominique
Two points: First, the word "ratify" is wholly wrong for this context. That word suggests a formal approval process that is a component of the document becoming law (similar to the procedure for constitutional amendment in the United States, where any amendment must be ratified by 3/4 of the state legislatures before becoming law). For the Canadian situation pre-1982, the word "support" should be used instead of "ratify". Also it should be made clear that in most cases, what is meant is the support of the premier of the province, as opposed to the legislature. Second point: As to the reason why the Premier (and, in this case, legislature) of Quebec did not support the Canada Act 1982, it is highly unsatisfactory to say "because the PQ was uncooperative" or some variation on that. It is also unsatisfactory to say "because Quebec was excluded from the Kitchen Accord", which suggests that Quebec did not have any real objection to the substance of the Canada Act 1982 but merely objected to the manner in which it was developed. In reality, the main reason why Quebec did not support the Canada Act 1982 was because of the new amending formula, and in particular the condition placed on compensation in section 40. -- Mathew5000 01:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It is inaccurate to use the phrase "Quebec's formal rejection". There is no "formal" rejection; Quebec had no formal means to reject the document. All Quebec can do (and all it did) was pass a resolution in its legislature opposing the patriation package. It is also misleading to talk about Quebec's "signature" on the document, for the same reason. There is no place to "sign" it; that's just a political euphemism. Using inaccurate terminology like that just creates confusion. The reality is that the government and legislature of Quebec both expressed their opposition to the Canada Act 1982 (not the Charter specifically, although of course it is included) and have never changed that position. -- Mathew5000 03:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
One other thing about that paragraph. It is peculiar use the phrase "because it was then led by the allegedly uncooperative Parti Québécois". It is analogous to saying something like, "In 2003, Canada did not join the Iraq war because it was then led by the Liberal Party." Yes, it might well be true that if another party had been in power in Ottawa, Canada would have sent troops to fight in Iraq, so in a literal sense you can defend the causative relationship between the Liberals being in power and Canada not having joined the Iraq war. But for encyclopedic purposes, that really just finesses the question of why the Liberal government decided not to join the Iraq war. It does not provide additional useful information to say "Canada did not join the Iraq war because the Liberals were in power and they decided not to join the Iraq war." -- Mathew5000 04:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
You're right it no longer does. It says "alledgedly uncooperative" but the point is that this is not an explanation in itself. On another line of thought, the new phrasing of the sentence: "Nevertheless, Quebec did not support the Charter (or the Canada Act 1982), either because it was then led by the allegedly uncooperative Parti Québécois, or because it was excluded from the negotiation of the Kitchen Accord, which the provincial leaders saw as being too centralist, or because of objections to its provisions relating to the process of future constitutional amendment.[7]" is unclear. This should be rephrased - perhaps divided into two sentences. Darielab 14:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The phrasing of this section reads just like a piece of anglo-canadian propaganda. It sounds as if Quebec didn't have any reason for refusing to sign the Canadian Charter while there is a clear and rational explanation. (They were excluded from the negociations). It's not because the Parti Quebecois was uncooperative. They had previously participated in the talks and they were not against the canadian charter. I wonder how this became a featured article. 70.80.73.22 22:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the reasons why Quebec did not agree to the constitutional changes and still does not today is not very well known in English-Speaking Canada, probably because of the climate of confrontation between Ottawa and Quebec on everything involving constitutional and national questions.
Normally, I thought it would be easy to find good factual, 100% neutral and boring informations on this topic online, but it seems the materials from the Journal des débats available from the website of the Quebec National Assembly only include recent stuff (between 1992 and today) and old stuff (archives between 1867 and 1933). That's not convenient... Can anyone check to see if maybe I overlooked something? ( http://www.assnat.qc.ca/)
What is available in both English and French from the CBC/Radio-Canada website only scratches the surface but is a start.
In 2001, the governement of Quebec published a document entitled Québec's Positions on Constitutional and Intergovernmental Issues from 1936 to March 2001. It is available in English translation here:
The point of view I am familiar with is this one:
1. Section 16 to 22 were specifically designed to impose Ottawa's POV on language matters, effectively preventing Quebec from implementing its language management policy which is based on the territorial principle and not the personality principle.
2. Quebec was willing to abandon its constitutional veto in exchange for the ability to retract from any federal program with full financial compensation (Opting Out), but ended up losing the first and not getting the second.
3. The ability of one province to have full control over what the constitution defines as "exclusive provincial jurisdictions" cannot be worked around without making a mockery of the principles federalism.
3. Despite differences in the interpretation of the facts between the PQ and the Quebec liberals, both agree on the fundamentals (Quebec as a nation, Ottawa pushing for a unified nation-state against the principles of federalism etc.), hence the reason that Quebec still does not agree to the constitutional move of 1982. -- Mathieugp 04:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "The United States Bill of Rights can be contrasted with the Canadian Charter in that the latter contains a limitations clause and the former does not. The Supreme Court of Canada has consequently approached rights in the Canadian Charter with a view that they are more generous. Conversely, as the US Bill of Rights has no limitations clause or notwithstanding clause, the Supreme Court of the United States must define rights provisions themselves more conservatively."
This sort of convoluted logic is at best counterintuitive and at worst outright spin. Shouldn't the fact that the US Bill of Rights doesn't have similar clauses be evidence that it is, in fact, the more generous document? "Conservative" US Supreme Court decisions can be, and often are, often reversed. On the other hand, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms itself, especially via the notwithstanding clause, essentially gives the government carte blanche to outright suspend a broad swath of rights. The limitations clause merely codifies the traditional US practice of judicial review, but in decidedly negative terms (i.e., determining which laws can get away with infringing rights to a certain extent, as opposed to striking down laws which infringe upon rights too much). -- Jason Jones 09:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
It is inappropriate and POV to refer to Trudeau as "Liberal Attorney General Pierre Trudeau". He was the Attorney General and his party affiliation should not be used as a descriptor in that context.
I didn't see a mention of where the original document is kept. I think this should be included somewhere in the article. Anyone know, and can add? 45°29′15″N 75°40′40″W / 45.48741°N 75.67767°W -- Mathew5000 15:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)