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It has Cleopatra II which should be Cleopatra III in every case. This is correct and inline with other wiki pages-- 27.33.104.200 ( talk) 11:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Okay. This page says:
Now if we actually go to Cleopatra's page we see this date instead:
So which one is right? Obviously someone has not checked their facts. I'm tempted to remove both until a date is actually known. If it is questionable, that is to say, if there is still an ongoing debate of the date, then it should state so clearly in both articles. Thoughts? If no one responds, then I'll remove them in a few days. MagnoliaSouth ( talk) 03:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone think the standard Anglicised names Octavian and Antony shound be used over the Latin "Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus" and "Marcus Antonius?"
Does it really matter in the Eternal scheme of things?
Tomtom9041
Is it true that Julius Caesar never recognized him as a son? In this case, which is the source that reports his father to be Caesar? -- Panairjdde 16:40, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Except that no one, including Octavian, ever tried to make the argument that Caesarion wasn't a valid heir because he had no Roman legal standing. Octavian was a smart guy & a masterful politician; if that argument had been there to be made, he would have made it. Note also that Caesar adopted Octavian as his personal heir, not political—he left Octavian his private propety, not his rank.
The Romans of the period had pretty much no concept of political heirs; it was something they had to make up as they went along as it slowly dawned on them how completely the old order had been destroyed. In the tumult of the late 40s and 30s BC, a natural son of Caesar seemed to everyone—including Octavian, or we wouldn't have been so concerned with casting aspersions on Caesarion's paternity—to have at least as much right to claim to be Caesar's political heir as his principal lieutenant (Antony) or the undistinguished distant relative to whom he left his fortune (Octavian). Binabik80 14:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Addendum: It's just occured to me that I'm pretty sure Caesarion could never have been a Roman citizen anyway under the letter of Roman law, as (though I can't find anything at hand about the specifics of the situation in 47/44 BC), generally speaking, only the children of a citizen father and a citizen or conubium-holding mother could inherit citizenship. So if anyone thought Caesarion would need a claim of citizenship to make a valid heir, there wouldn't have been any debate in the first place (or there would have been a movement in the Senate to pass a law granting him citizenship).
I notice the article currently has no mention whatsoever of the legal question. I have no objection to the insertion of a remark that it's doubtful Caesar ever acknowledged him as his son, though noting that Antony informed the Senate that he did. Binabik80 14:49, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't get the question. Of course Caesar recognized him as his son, He commissioned the statue of Cleopatra as the Venus Genetrix with a small Caesarion on her shoulder! The action had such political ramifications (if you know roman history/mythos the implication in the statue is Caesar(ion) is the rightful king of rome) that Caesar was murdered. Curiously, the scene of the Ides of March, the celebratory entrance of Caesar, the cunning of those with daggers, and Cleopatra escaping rome and finding refuge in the Nile delta; Is literally the Osirian drama. Set throws a party for Osiris, murders him (and eventually cuts him to pieces), Aset flees with Heru to the "swamps"(delta). Additionally if you read Caesar's eulogy to his sister Julia, you will understand this from his perspective. On Caesar(ion) both history and myth collide. MBJ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.83 ( talk) 01:25, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
As I'm not entirely sure why it's there (the mistake is so glaring that it has me completely confused), I will turn to the author(s) to explain why the Greek version of Caesarion's name as listed near the top of the page says Cleopatra (the transliteration of Κλεοπατρα). Was he named for his mother or was there some matronymic feature common amongst the Ptolemies which was not used otherwise in Greek naming conventions? If this is simply a mistake, I believe that it should be changed to Καισαριον (the proper transliteration of Caesarion). -- KraDakar 01:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
How come I can find no mention of the relevancy of this video? http://youtube.com/watch?v=rWs5OUxYzUs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.193.157 ( talk) 19:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Selene had one son Ptolemy, and Ptolemy had at least one daugther, Drusilla, before he was murdered by caligula. But Drusilla, and the remainder of the First Family were "absorbed" into the Jewish ruling families. ( Not J.Caesar's direct line, but Cleopatra's and Mark Antony)--mj —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.235.226.214 (
talk)
20:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no possible relevance of Ptolemaic system, or any part of it, to this article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Even the sources provided by the SPA didn't say "son of god", they said he was declared a god, and the son of a god. (The same applies to Augustus, but that article was not subject to SPA attacks.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
WillBildUnion ( talk) 01:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Why did you change my original translation from when this subsection was created?
Iwa pa NTR nti nhm stp n Pth ir Maat Ra skhem ankh Amen Is HIS NAME.
Heir of That God who saves, Chosen of the Father, The Sun of Righteousness, The Living Power of the Hidden God is it's translation.
Hunu nfr bnr mrut Ka nkht jakhu sktet ra iah ptlwmis Djd twnf kjsrs ankh ddt mrj Pth-Ast
ankh udja senb (I hate that the rest was deleted as well, but I guess fire burns, even digitally) MBJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.237.113.168 ( talk) 02:16, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
More over Looking at the date you did it is wickedness -- you people are Sun worshipers -- idolatrous hypocrits who hate truth! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.237.113.168 ( talk) 02:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Even if he was declared "king of kings", we would need some evidence that it wasn't common at the time for emperors to be so declared, for it to be notable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
On the header it says: For eighteen days, up to August, 30 BC he was sole pharaoh, when he was killed on orders of Octavian.
But it's also mentioned that he fled to India and was pursued to come back. Well, you don't rule Egypt for eighteen days, fled to India, and on the eighteenth day had come back and face death by Octavian's men.
This does not add up, and so does not many other in the article. And, Clepatra had for sure forbid him to come back by any means.
I would say the latest edits to this article are poorly made. And the sources are only 4, 3 new.
Yes, I could also write Roman history during Reign of Augustus by out of Augustus autobiography (that he did), but there are other sources as well. If contradictory, all the information should be put forth. It's unencyclopediac to state in the header he was killed by Octavian when clearly that is not the case. WillBildUnion ( talk) 01:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
No sir. Caesar did not leave Cleopatra pregnant. Cleopatra and Caesar(ion) were living in Rome on the ides of March! mbj —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.237.113.168 ( talk) 02:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Paul this is language and semantics, what is the conotation of "left pregnant"? Then kind sir, why do I need to read, more clearly, words that have clear definitions. Plutarch had motivation to denigrate the Imperial family so the words he chose were to imply that Caesar left Cleopatra pregnant. Also your arguments about Cleopatra "sharing" the throne with Caesar are false conjecture. At Dendera, Cleopatra is depicted standing behind Caesar -- this suggest that Caesar was fully Pharoah, Nsut Bti, Stn Stniu. As this is the only surviving depiction of them (Caesar as an adult), and it was created by them , it is much more credible than any of the opinions you have to offer. I guess I am a radical -- the man's name was not "caesarion" that is a name roman authors used. The heiroglyphs of his name is more like "K-I-S-R-Z" poissibly "Caesaros" (as he is hellinic). Regardless it is clearly not Caesarion. And IMHO, to stick him with the name his murderers gave him is just wrong. Maybe you can help me with one thing though, why is it roman sympathizers applaud octavian for being appointed to the Triumvirate at 17 -- but think Caesar(ion) was too young to be Pharoah? MBJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.219.46 ( talk) 23:09, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Those Roman sympathizers would be Plutarch, Josephus, and those who quote them. Caesar was crowned King at Coptos on July 19 when he was 2! Then he shared his throne with Cleopatra. The coronation ("donations") was orchestrated for Caesar to 'come into his own'. 'Too young' refers to the prevailing opinion that Caesar was too young to be Pharoah and therefore shared his throne with his mother. The existing record does not support that conclusion.MBJ 69.244.219.99 ( talk) 22:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC) IF I recall correctly those classic authors write his name as "Caesariana"; the -a is distinctly feminine (in latin). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.219.46 ( talk) 10:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Fauxchoux is a totally fictitious character. The sarcophagus of Alexander the Great has never been found. Caesarion probably never had a sarcophagus, as far as we know. The correct spelling is "Pharaoh", not "Pharoah" (sic). Das Baz, aka Erudil 18:40, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
This historic record is Alexanders' coffin was melted to satisfy a debt to rome -- I can't recall which Ptolemy did it, it may have been Aleutis. Why would you assume Caesar(ion) did not have a sarcophagus? He would have still received the burial of a Pharaoh. Tutankhaten also died relatively young and was replaced by a different dynasty but still received a 'proper' burial. Although i agree octavian would have likely opposed it. MBJ 75.90.63.234 ( talk) 12:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Caesarion is also the title of the Dutch book: Caesarion written by Tommy Wieringa. This is a work on fiction with some references to the life of Caesarion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.120.42.212 ( talk) 09:29, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Will wikipedia not allow discussion of Caesar(ion) as Christ. Topic removed several times. [text redacted here, see my comments below in response] MBJ 68.46.234.114 ( talk) 11:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.114 ( talk) 11:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
so does this require that a previous source called him the son of god? It is inscribed on the walls of the Temple of Mentu at erment(also an early christian chruch). Is that not a valid reference? I have previously posted specific references. But are you saying that what is needed is for a western writer to have written something in support of this idea? I have posted references to articles in the Journal of Roman Studies by W.W. Tarn and Miklejohn -- however they too were removed. Ironically without access to the articles (as most don't have access to the archives of the various journals) how would anyone know the contents of the article? I also posted a paragraph from the abstract, to give a reader an idea of the discussion of the article, that too was also removed.on the one hand you say i must present sources, on the other you will not allow them to be presented. Do i need a reference for our calender year? no everyone knows the names of the months, do I need a reference for the reason they are named -- that is common knowledge, everyone knows July is for Julius and August for octavian. The ONLY thing I did was connect the dots, so you are saying that someone must have had the idea before and someone else must have published it? That June-July-August, is equivalent to Juno Julius and Augustus is clearly obvious, regardless of weather or not the fact is published. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 10:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
O.K. I'll be even more simple -- his name is Ir Maat Ra -- the "Sun of Righteousness" is the old testament name for christ. His name is a specific reference to him as the Judeo-Christian Messiah. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.46.234.56 (
talk)
11:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
So this "discussion" page is for "citations"? or is the discussion of the topic of the article? I have posted references -- the issue is the topic. The page you linked to is not appropriate. The Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources page begins with the sentence "Wikipedia articles should be based.." and the policy of verifiability says it is strictly applied to main page materials and Living personalities. Is this the discussion page, and not the "main page"? I do not consider this page the "article" but a page of discussion about the "article". As a wiki user, when I want to know if there is any 'out of the mainstream" discussion of a subject of interest I look on the discussion pages of the articles to "hear what people are saying in the 'back alleys'. I know it is discussion and not the encyclopedia article. The user who selects the discussion tab is seeking supplementary information. Now you did not request any specific reference for any specific claim -- you removed the text in its entirety. Moreover you used the premise the text did not meet the wiki standards for MAIN PAGE ARTICLE CONTENT. Have I edited the main page? The issue is the topic, most of the 'facts', as they are, are well known -- this discussion is over the interpretation of accepted facts. It is no argument that he was King of Kings, or even that he was Son of "a" God. The issue is the judeo-christian nature of his King of King Son of Godness. I use accepted facts to demonstrate that the history and religion support the claim. I make note of the "gentiles" Philadelphus, Philopater, and Philometor. The three are very intimately connected to Judeo-Christian history through the Septuagint and the Maccabees. It is most peculiar that Caesar(and his brother) is named after them. It is very significant that Philometor built a Temple in egypt that provided refuge to hebrews, was staffed by levite priest, functioned according to the law, and received YHVHs sacrifice(tel-el yahudiya). These are facts that are not in dispute. The parable of the tribute penny is known. Octavian's divi filius coin with the big star looking comet is known; it was in circulation. Again all accepted facts. Incidentally the term "hypocrite" is quite specific and can only be true in limited circumstances that are only amplified when Caesar is considered. Your issue is the topic, I have only discussed facts related to the subject of the article. 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 14:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)MBJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 11:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
o.k. well then should not the main page include a section that acknowledges that some people believe that he is Christ? Both Ben Padera and Haile Selassie are given such recognition.(oh and Tarn's article does demonstrate the connection with the Jewish Messiah) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 20:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Senor Freebie, I am but a humble negro and have not any experience with Aryan ideology -- has never been an interest. Moreover, as Selene's children married into the Jewish Royal Family, the concept of Caesar(ion) as a focal point of (anti-semetic) thinking would have been folly. And the Ptolemies, were historically allies of Hebrews. The seed of this is truth -- and the seeker finds it and cherishes it. That is what's most amazing; it screams forth across time and is completely undeniable to anyone with eyes that see. Raw Truth. Perhaps another has enjoined this experience -- I do not know them.MBJ 68.46.234.83 ( talk) 23:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Can an Administrator please hat this ridiculous, WP:FORUM violation waste of bits? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.22.224 ( talk) 00:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
How can I tell if my a ountt is real 174.247.95.226 ( talk) 20:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Caesarion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 2, 2013, September 2, 2015, September 2, 2020, and September 2, 2021. |
It has Cleopatra II which should be Cleopatra III in every case. This is correct and inline with other wiki pages-- 27.33.104.200 ( talk) 11:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Okay. This page says:
Now if we actually go to Cleopatra's page we see this date instead:
So which one is right? Obviously someone has not checked their facts. I'm tempted to remove both until a date is actually known. If it is questionable, that is to say, if there is still an ongoing debate of the date, then it should state so clearly in both articles. Thoughts? If no one responds, then I'll remove them in a few days. MagnoliaSouth ( talk) 03:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone think the standard Anglicised names Octavian and Antony shound be used over the Latin "Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus" and "Marcus Antonius?"
Does it really matter in the Eternal scheme of things?
Tomtom9041
Is it true that Julius Caesar never recognized him as a son? In this case, which is the source that reports his father to be Caesar? -- Panairjdde 16:40, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Except that no one, including Octavian, ever tried to make the argument that Caesarion wasn't a valid heir because he had no Roman legal standing. Octavian was a smart guy & a masterful politician; if that argument had been there to be made, he would have made it. Note also that Caesar adopted Octavian as his personal heir, not political—he left Octavian his private propety, not his rank.
The Romans of the period had pretty much no concept of political heirs; it was something they had to make up as they went along as it slowly dawned on them how completely the old order had been destroyed. In the tumult of the late 40s and 30s BC, a natural son of Caesar seemed to everyone—including Octavian, or we wouldn't have been so concerned with casting aspersions on Caesarion's paternity—to have at least as much right to claim to be Caesar's political heir as his principal lieutenant (Antony) or the undistinguished distant relative to whom he left his fortune (Octavian). Binabik80 14:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Addendum: It's just occured to me that I'm pretty sure Caesarion could never have been a Roman citizen anyway under the letter of Roman law, as (though I can't find anything at hand about the specifics of the situation in 47/44 BC), generally speaking, only the children of a citizen father and a citizen or conubium-holding mother could inherit citizenship. So if anyone thought Caesarion would need a claim of citizenship to make a valid heir, there wouldn't have been any debate in the first place (or there would have been a movement in the Senate to pass a law granting him citizenship).
I notice the article currently has no mention whatsoever of the legal question. I have no objection to the insertion of a remark that it's doubtful Caesar ever acknowledged him as his son, though noting that Antony informed the Senate that he did. Binabik80 14:49, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't get the question. Of course Caesar recognized him as his son, He commissioned the statue of Cleopatra as the Venus Genetrix with a small Caesarion on her shoulder! The action had such political ramifications (if you know roman history/mythos the implication in the statue is Caesar(ion) is the rightful king of rome) that Caesar was murdered. Curiously, the scene of the Ides of March, the celebratory entrance of Caesar, the cunning of those with daggers, and Cleopatra escaping rome and finding refuge in the Nile delta; Is literally the Osirian drama. Set throws a party for Osiris, murders him (and eventually cuts him to pieces), Aset flees with Heru to the "swamps"(delta). Additionally if you read Caesar's eulogy to his sister Julia, you will understand this from his perspective. On Caesar(ion) both history and myth collide. MBJ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.83 ( talk) 01:25, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
As I'm not entirely sure why it's there (the mistake is so glaring that it has me completely confused), I will turn to the author(s) to explain why the Greek version of Caesarion's name as listed near the top of the page says Cleopatra (the transliteration of Κλεοπατρα). Was he named for his mother or was there some matronymic feature common amongst the Ptolemies which was not used otherwise in Greek naming conventions? If this is simply a mistake, I believe that it should be changed to Καισαριον (the proper transliteration of Caesarion). -- KraDakar 01:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
How come I can find no mention of the relevancy of this video? http://youtube.com/watch?v=rWs5OUxYzUs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.193.157 ( talk) 19:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Selene had one son Ptolemy, and Ptolemy had at least one daugther, Drusilla, before he was murdered by caligula. But Drusilla, and the remainder of the First Family were "absorbed" into the Jewish ruling families. ( Not J.Caesar's direct line, but Cleopatra's and Mark Antony)--mj —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
67.235.226.214 (
talk)
20:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
There is no possible relevance of Ptolemaic system, or any part of it, to this article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Even the sources provided by the SPA didn't say "son of god", they said he was declared a god, and the son of a god. (The same applies to Augustus, but that article was not subject to SPA attacks.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
WillBildUnion ( talk) 01:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Why did you change my original translation from when this subsection was created?
Iwa pa NTR nti nhm stp n Pth ir Maat Ra skhem ankh Amen Is HIS NAME.
Heir of That God who saves, Chosen of the Father, The Sun of Righteousness, The Living Power of the Hidden God is it's translation.
Hunu nfr bnr mrut Ka nkht jakhu sktet ra iah ptlwmis Djd twnf kjsrs ankh ddt mrj Pth-Ast
ankh udja senb (I hate that the rest was deleted as well, but I guess fire burns, even digitally) MBJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.237.113.168 ( talk) 02:16, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
More over Looking at the date you did it is wickedness -- you people are Sun worshipers -- idolatrous hypocrits who hate truth! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.237.113.168 ( talk) 02:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Even if he was declared "king of kings", we would need some evidence that it wasn't common at the time for emperors to be so declared, for it to be notable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
On the header it says: For eighteen days, up to August, 30 BC he was sole pharaoh, when he was killed on orders of Octavian.
But it's also mentioned that he fled to India and was pursued to come back. Well, you don't rule Egypt for eighteen days, fled to India, and on the eighteenth day had come back and face death by Octavian's men.
This does not add up, and so does not many other in the article. And, Clepatra had for sure forbid him to come back by any means.
I would say the latest edits to this article are poorly made. And the sources are only 4, 3 new.
Yes, I could also write Roman history during Reign of Augustus by out of Augustus autobiography (that he did), but there are other sources as well. If contradictory, all the information should be put forth. It's unencyclopediac to state in the header he was killed by Octavian when clearly that is not the case. WillBildUnion ( talk) 01:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
No sir. Caesar did not leave Cleopatra pregnant. Cleopatra and Caesar(ion) were living in Rome on the ides of March! mbj —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.237.113.168 ( talk) 02:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Paul this is language and semantics, what is the conotation of "left pregnant"? Then kind sir, why do I need to read, more clearly, words that have clear definitions. Plutarch had motivation to denigrate the Imperial family so the words he chose were to imply that Caesar left Cleopatra pregnant. Also your arguments about Cleopatra "sharing" the throne with Caesar are false conjecture. At Dendera, Cleopatra is depicted standing behind Caesar -- this suggest that Caesar was fully Pharoah, Nsut Bti, Stn Stniu. As this is the only surviving depiction of them (Caesar as an adult), and it was created by them , it is much more credible than any of the opinions you have to offer. I guess I am a radical -- the man's name was not "caesarion" that is a name roman authors used. The heiroglyphs of his name is more like "K-I-S-R-Z" poissibly "Caesaros" (as he is hellinic). Regardless it is clearly not Caesarion. And IMHO, to stick him with the name his murderers gave him is just wrong. Maybe you can help me with one thing though, why is it roman sympathizers applaud octavian for being appointed to the Triumvirate at 17 -- but think Caesar(ion) was too young to be Pharoah? MBJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.219.46 ( talk) 23:09, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Those Roman sympathizers would be Plutarch, Josephus, and those who quote them. Caesar was crowned King at Coptos on July 19 when he was 2! Then he shared his throne with Cleopatra. The coronation ("donations") was orchestrated for Caesar to 'come into his own'. 'Too young' refers to the prevailing opinion that Caesar was too young to be Pharoah and therefore shared his throne with his mother. The existing record does not support that conclusion.MBJ 69.244.219.99 ( talk) 22:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC) IF I recall correctly those classic authors write his name as "Caesariana"; the -a is distinctly feminine (in latin). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.219.46 ( talk) 10:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Fauxchoux is a totally fictitious character. The sarcophagus of Alexander the Great has never been found. Caesarion probably never had a sarcophagus, as far as we know. The correct spelling is "Pharaoh", not "Pharoah" (sic). Das Baz, aka Erudil 18:40, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
This historic record is Alexanders' coffin was melted to satisfy a debt to rome -- I can't recall which Ptolemy did it, it may have been Aleutis. Why would you assume Caesar(ion) did not have a sarcophagus? He would have still received the burial of a Pharaoh. Tutankhaten also died relatively young and was replaced by a different dynasty but still received a 'proper' burial. Although i agree octavian would have likely opposed it. MBJ 75.90.63.234 ( talk) 12:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Caesarion is also the title of the Dutch book: Caesarion written by Tommy Wieringa. This is a work on fiction with some references to the life of Caesarion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.120.42.212 ( talk) 09:29, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Will wikipedia not allow discussion of Caesar(ion) as Christ. Topic removed several times. [text redacted here, see my comments below in response] MBJ 68.46.234.114 ( talk) 11:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.114 ( talk) 11:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
so does this require that a previous source called him the son of god? It is inscribed on the walls of the Temple of Mentu at erment(also an early christian chruch). Is that not a valid reference? I have previously posted specific references. But are you saying that what is needed is for a western writer to have written something in support of this idea? I have posted references to articles in the Journal of Roman Studies by W.W. Tarn and Miklejohn -- however they too were removed. Ironically without access to the articles (as most don't have access to the archives of the various journals) how would anyone know the contents of the article? I also posted a paragraph from the abstract, to give a reader an idea of the discussion of the article, that too was also removed.on the one hand you say i must present sources, on the other you will not allow them to be presented. Do i need a reference for our calender year? no everyone knows the names of the months, do I need a reference for the reason they are named -- that is common knowledge, everyone knows July is for Julius and August for octavian. The ONLY thing I did was connect the dots, so you are saying that someone must have had the idea before and someone else must have published it? That June-July-August, is equivalent to Juno Julius and Augustus is clearly obvious, regardless of weather or not the fact is published. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 10:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
O.K. I'll be even more simple -- his name is Ir Maat Ra -- the "Sun of Righteousness" is the old testament name for christ. His name is a specific reference to him as the Judeo-Christian Messiah. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.46.234.56 (
talk)
11:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
So this "discussion" page is for "citations"? or is the discussion of the topic of the article? I have posted references -- the issue is the topic. The page you linked to is not appropriate. The Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources page begins with the sentence "Wikipedia articles should be based.." and the policy of verifiability says it is strictly applied to main page materials and Living personalities. Is this the discussion page, and not the "main page"? I do not consider this page the "article" but a page of discussion about the "article". As a wiki user, when I want to know if there is any 'out of the mainstream" discussion of a subject of interest I look on the discussion pages of the articles to "hear what people are saying in the 'back alleys'. I know it is discussion and not the encyclopedia article. The user who selects the discussion tab is seeking supplementary information. Now you did not request any specific reference for any specific claim -- you removed the text in its entirety. Moreover you used the premise the text did not meet the wiki standards for MAIN PAGE ARTICLE CONTENT. Have I edited the main page? The issue is the topic, most of the 'facts', as they are, are well known -- this discussion is over the interpretation of accepted facts. It is no argument that he was King of Kings, or even that he was Son of "a" God. The issue is the judeo-christian nature of his King of King Son of Godness. I use accepted facts to demonstrate that the history and religion support the claim. I make note of the "gentiles" Philadelphus, Philopater, and Philometor. The three are very intimately connected to Judeo-Christian history through the Septuagint and the Maccabees. It is most peculiar that Caesar(and his brother) is named after them. It is very significant that Philometor built a Temple in egypt that provided refuge to hebrews, was staffed by levite priest, functioned according to the law, and received YHVHs sacrifice(tel-el yahudiya). These are facts that are not in dispute. The parable of the tribute penny is known. Octavian's divi filius coin with the big star looking comet is known; it was in circulation. Again all accepted facts. Incidentally the term "hypocrite" is quite specific and can only be true in limited circumstances that are only amplified when Caesar is considered. Your issue is the topic, I have only discussed facts related to the subject of the article. 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 14:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)MBJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 11:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
o.k. well then should not the main page include a section that acknowledges that some people believe that he is Christ? Both Ben Padera and Haile Selassie are given such recognition.(oh and Tarn's article does demonstrate the connection with the Jewish Messiah) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.46.234.56 ( talk) 20:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Senor Freebie, I am but a humble negro and have not any experience with Aryan ideology -- has never been an interest. Moreover, as Selene's children married into the Jewish Royal Family, the concept of Caesar(ion) as a focal point of (anti-semetic) thinking would have been folly. And the Ptolemies, were historically allies of Hebrews. The seed of this is truth -- and the seeker finds it and cherishes it. That is what's most amazing; it screams forth across time and is completely undeniable to anyone with eyes that see. Raw Truth. Perhaps another has enjoined this experience -- I do not know them.MBJ 68.46.234.83 ( talk) 23:34, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Can an Administrator please hat this ridiculous, WP:FORUM violation waste of bits? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.22.224 ( talk) 00:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
How can I tell if my a ountt is real 174.247.95.226 ( talk) 20:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)