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Since this term is obviously quite new, it needs to be explained a bit first. WHO deemed the "CSI effect" to be considered a THING, and WHERE did it come from? Where was it mentioned? You see, it sounds like the opinion of a commentator in the media: it needs to be justified as an identified idea in society before we can explain it in an encyclopedia article. Looks a bit amateur right now. - tilgrieog
I think that we have diverged. This talk page is supposed to be more for if the articles should be merged, not the accuracy of the articles. I think that the articles should be merged because they are so simmiler. There is enough of an overlap that it is not worth having two seperate articles. swat671 00:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Merge seems well founded to me. Not enough detail to warrant a separate article. haz ( talk) e 18:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there any evidence or cites so show that the 'CSI Effect' is actually real, ie that jurors now have higher expectations, that criminals learn from the shows or even that police worry about the Effect? Ashmoo 06:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
As many of the references on this page were newspaper and magazine articles, I added some info on actual research on the CSI effect. I know of four published academic papers on the topic (and I'm sure more are on the way). I added a paragraph that describes what these studies found. (And I did some light housekeeping). - Nick talk 23:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to rename the first section "Forensic Science in Fiction." That section title just puts a bad light on forensics in general and doesn't suit the section at all, and it would fit in more with Wikipedia style.-- Wikiphilia 01:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to touch on, but insufficiently cover, the other meaning of this term, acknowledged implicitly on a campy CSI episode itself in which Grisson tells a TV camera that there are already too many police and crime shows: The term has also been applied to the strong effect upon criminals to go to increasingly greater and more intricate lengths to eliminate forensic evidence of their activities, directly as a result of popular awareness of (alleged) forensic capabilities. I know I have seen (alas, not copied and saved) articles in which real-life CSIs decry these TV shows as effectively creating a new arms race between CSI-avid criminals and real-world crime labs. This is actually a quite significant effect and should be covered here (or in another article, if there is some other term for the effect in question). The show has taught the average viewer, much less a semi-student of the issues, that even seemingly meticulous soap-and-water washing of blood from a crime scene is useless and more DNA-destructive cleansers have to be used, that any crime should be committed with a tight hair net on, that all clothing should be discarded and the body thoroughly washed, down to the eyelids, after firing a gun, that any hand-to-hand injury sustained by a now-dead victim must be gouged or burned to remove any DNA traces from the attacker, including under the fingernails, that even knuckles, cheeks, palms and toes can be used for fingerprint-like identification, that explosives should never be made in an even vaguely similar manner twice, that jewelry, silks and other non-generic adornments should never be worn during the commission of a crime, that one should wear very generic shoes to a crime of any kind and then destroy (not discard) them, that no unusual medications, topical or internal, should be used any time before committing a crime, that a gun intended for a crime should be bought off the black market because it has probably been used in a crime before and therefore will lead investigators to the previous user and his/her crimes and away from you, etc., etc., etc. If I were criminally-minded, I would be probably at least 6200% more likely to get away with now it after watching these shows than if I'd never seen them. Before them, most criminals' idea of forensic self-protection appeared to be "wear gloves, don't bleed all over the place, throw the weapon in a ditch down the street". Way different world now. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
There are now more shows following the popular trends in "fictional " forensic science. "Bones" involves an expert in forensics assisted by an FBI agent. Although "Bones" is highly stylized and the forensic science is typically "instant" and glamourised, the show adds more depth to the motives and psychology of the crimes being investigated. Is this worth adding to the articles reference section?```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ern malleyscrub ( talk • contribs) 11:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Surely this "effect" would date in some fashion at least back to the Sherlock Holmes stories? While I realize this article is specifically about expectations of forensic science, stories detailing methods of crime-solving have surely had a similar effect on both the public at large and criminals? Just a thought... Huw Powell ( talk) 23:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Okay - I'll see what I can do and jot some queries as I come across them.. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 05:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks mate! -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
The following sentence in the Lede appears to need a citation. "Although this belief is widely held among American legal professionals, several studies have shown that crime shows are unlikely to cause such an effect." Deterence Talk 02:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
== Relevance of "real murder case" entry ==
Something about the line:
doesn't quite seem right. The article's about the CSI effect, but this general comment on the lack of reality in crime shows in general is out of place. The article could well go into any other unrealistic aspect, including the tendency for crimes to be solved within the allotted hour or the small numbers of actual lack of drug squad officers driving around in Ferrari Testarossas and wearing cool sunglasses. Mark5677 ( talk) 09:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, in writing this sentence, I was trying to make the point that, when it comes to crime shows, it's not just that the forensic science is inaccurate, it's that the shows themselves are entirely unrealistic in their depiction of crime. Mark and Bob both have good ideas for additional/replacement points; if any of you find some good sources to back them up, feel free to make the changes as you see fit. -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 12:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
So where do we stand: remove this / change this / leave this ? Prefer to get some consensus prior to doing something, which for me would involve removing this reference. Mark5677 ( talk) 10:57, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
The cited source for this statement is quite poor; it is an ABC News blurb which in turn cites no sources. The source seems to say that the software locates "hot spots" of crime, which is easy to believe, not that it predicts crime locations and time frames. I think this sentence should be stricken. Comet Tuttle ( talk) 18:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Why does the title bar of the article italicize "CSI" but the rest of the article doesn't? — fourthords | =Λ= | 19:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
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Penlite, regarding the "Research findings" section you created, seen here and here, it doesn't seem that you checked to see if the article already included some of the material. For example, the "Trials" section already stated, "One of the largest empirical studies of the CSI effect was undertaken in 2006 by Washtenaw County Circuit Court Judge Donald Shelton and two researchers from Eastern Michigan University."
Because of your edits, the article now has a "Research findings" section, but other parts of the article also include research findings. I don't see that it needed a "Research findings" section. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 00:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Looking at this one as part of the WP:URFA/2020 sweeps of older featured articles. This older featured article does not seem to have kept up with the most recent research, as most of the sources are at least 10 years old when this topic has seen continued scholarly attention. Examples are [2], [3], [4] and many more. There's a lot written about this topic in the last 10 years, and very little of the most recent research is included.
There's also a few instance of direct citations to court cases where certain things are interpreted using the case itself in a way that borders on original research, such as "In this case, the Maryland appellate court ruled the CSI effect voir dire question inappropriate due to its biased language and use of the term "convict" without mention of acquittal". Hog Farm Talk 02:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
CSI effect is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 17, 2011. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Since this term is obviously quite new, it needs to be explained a bit first. WHO deemed the "CSI effect" to be considered a THING, and WHERE did it come from? Where was it mentioned? You see, it sounds like the opinion of a commentator in the media: it needs to be justified as an identified idea in society before we can explain it in an encyclopedia article. Looks a bit amateur right now. - tilgrieog
I think that we have diverged. This talk page is supposed to be more for if the articles should be merged, not the accuracy of the articles. I think that the articles should be merged because they are so simmiler. There is enough of an overlap that it is not worth having two seperate articles. swat671 00:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Merge seems well founded to me. Not enough detail to warrant a separate article. haz ( talk) e 18:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there any evidence or cites so show that the 'CSI Effect' is actually real, ie that jurors now have higher expectations, that criminals learn from the shows or even that police worry about the Effect? Ashmoo 06:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
As many of the references on this page were newspaper and magazine articles, I added some info on actual research on the CSI effect. I know of four published academic papers on the topic (and I'm sure more are on the way). I added a paragraph that describes what these studies found. (And I did some light housekeeping). - Nick talk 23:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to rename the first section "Forensic Science in Fiction." That section title just puts a bad light on forensics in general and doesn't suit the section at all, and it would fit in more with Wikipedia style.-- Wikiphilia 01:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to touch on, but insufficiently cover, the other meaning of this term, acknowledged implicitly on a campy CSI episode itself in which Grisson tells a TV camera that there are already too many police and crime shows: The term has also been applied to the strong effect upon criminals to go to increasingly greater and more intricate lengths to eliminate forensic evidence of their activities, directly as a result of popular awareness of (alleged) forensic capabilities. I know I have seen (alas, not copied and saved) articles in which real-life CSIs decry these TV shows as effectively creating a new arms race between CSI-avid criminals and real-world crime labs. This is actually a quite significant effect and should be covered here (or in another article, if there is some other term for the effect in question). The show has taught the average viewer, much less a semi-student of the issues, that even seemingly meticulous soap-and-water washing of blood from a crime scene is useless and more DNA-destructive cleansers have to be used, that any crime should be committed with a tight hair net on, that all clothing should be discarded and the body thoroughly washed, down to the eyelids, after firing a gun, that any hand-to-hand injury sustained by a now-dead victim must be gouged or burned to remove any DNA traces from the attacker, including under the fingernails, that even knuckles, cheeks, palms and toes can be used for fingerprint-like identification, that explosives should never be made in an even vaguely similar manner twice, that jewelry, silks and other non-generic adornments should never be worn during the commission of a crime, that one should wear very generic shoes to a crime of any kind and then destroy (not discard) them, that no unusual medications, topical or internal, should be used any time before committing a crime, that a gun intended for a crime should be bought off the black market because it has probably been used in a crime before and therefore will lead investigators to the previous user and his/her crimes and away from you, etc., etc., etc. If I were criminally-minded, I would be probably at least 6200% more likely to get away with now it after watching these shows than if I'd never seen them. Before them, most criminals' idea of forensic self-protection appeared to be "wear gloves, don't bleed all over the place, throw the weapon in a ditch down the street". Way different world now. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
There are now more shows following the popular trends in "fictional " forensic science. "Bones" involves an expert in forensics assisted by an FBI agent. Although "Bones" is highly stylized and the forensic science is typically "instant" and glamourised, the show adds more depth to the motives and psychology of the crimes being investigated. Is this worth adding to the articles reference section?```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ern malleyscrub ( talk • contribs) 11:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Surely this "effect" would date in some fashion at least back to the Sherlock Holmes stories? While I realize this article is specifically about expectations of forensic science, stories detailing methods of crime-solving have surely had a similar effect on both the public at large and criminals? Just a thought... Huw Powell ( talk) 23:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Okay - I'll see what I can do and jot some queries as I come across them.. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 05:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks mate! -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:58, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
The following sentence in the Lede appears to need a citation. "Although this belief is widely held among American legal professionals, several studies have shown that crime shows are unlikely to cause such an effect." Deterence Talk 02:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
== Relevance of "real murder case" entry ==
Something about the line:
doesn't quite seem right. The article's about the CSI effect, but this general comment on the lack of reality in crime shows in general is out of place. The article could well go into any other unrealistic aspect, including the tendency for crimes to be solved within the allotted hour or the small numbers of actual lack of drug squad officers driving around in Ferrari Testarossas and wearing cool sunglasses. Mark5677 ( talk) 09:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, in writing this sentence, I was trying to make the point that, when it comes to crime shows, it's not just that the forensic science is inaccurate, it's that the shows themselves are entirely unrealistic in their depiction of crime. Mark and Bob both have good ideas for additional/replacement points; if any of you find some good sources to back them up, feel free to make the changes as you see fit. -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 12:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
So where do we stand: remove this / change this / leave this ? Prefer to get some consensus prior to doing something, which for me would involve removing this reference. Mark5677 ( talk) 10:57, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
The cited source for this statement is quite poor; it is an ABC News blurb which in turn cites no sources. The source seems to say that the software locates "hot spots" of crime, which is easy to believe, not that it predicts crime locations and time frames. I think this sentence should be stricken. Comet Tuttle ( talk) 18:29, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Why does the title bar of the article italicize "CSI" but the rest of the article doesn't? — fourthords | =Λ= | 19:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:53, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Penlite, regarding the "Research findings" section you created, seen here and here, it doesn't seem that you checked to see if the article already included some of the material. For example, the "Trials" section already stated, "One of the largest empirical studies of the CSI effect was undertaken in 2006 by Washtenaw County Circuit Court Judge Donald Shelton and two researchers from Eastern Michigan University."
Because of your edits, the article now has a "Research findings" section, but other parts of the article also include research findings. I don't see that it needed a "Research findings" section. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 00:23, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Looking at this one as part of the WP:URFA/2020 sweeps of older featured articles. This older featured article does not seem to have kept up with the most recent research, as most of the sources are at least 10 years old when this topic has seen continued scholarly attention. Examples are [2], [3], [4] and many more. There's a lot written about this topic in the last 10 years, and very little of the most recent research is included.
There's also a few instance of direct citations to court cases where certain things are interpreted using the case itself in a way that borders on original research, such as "In this case, the Maryland appellate court ruled the CSI effect voir dire question inappropriate due to its biased language and use of the term "convict" without mention of acquittal". Hog Farm Talk 02:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)