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We include a critique from Ortega accusing CESNUR of being an 'apologist journal'. It was removed as SPS, which it is. I restored it because: 1) it verifies only a quote from the source and 2) this "CESNUR as 'apologist'/nrm-friendly" critique is found in other RSes. Additionally, Ortega is an "established expert" whose NRM-related work has been widely published, per past RS noticeboard discussion. [1]. Feoffer ( talk) 19:53, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
The article mentions Dutch criticism of CESNUR because in the program of the CESNUR conference of 1997 in Amsterdam one speaker, Maria Dolores Fernandez-Figares, was listed on New Acropolis who was discovered by investigative journalists to be a member of New Acropolis. I confess I never read the article mentioning the critiques of scholar Richard Singelenberg at https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/een-sektencongres-kan-nooit-rustig-zijn~b00c8ac6/. Now I did and found somethingh I, and presumably other editors, were not aware of: that once the membership of the lady in New Acropolis was disclosed, her participation in the conference was cancelled ("inmiddels afgeblazen"). I believe this is not an irrelevant detail Aidayoung ( talk) 09:16, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Lewis is a well-known scholar but was never “CESNUR-affiliated” according both to CESNUR’s Web sites and his own publications. In his book “Falun Gong: Spiritual Warfare and Martyrdom” (Cambridge University Press 2018) Lewis mentions his own career. It does not mention CESNUR but it makes it clear that his is a different approach. For example, while CESNUR has always been a vocal critic of China, particularly on the Falun Gong issue, Lewis states that it has a long cooperation with Chinese authorities in fighting Falun Gong. Aidayoung ( talk) 09:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC) Lewis has never published in The Journal of CESNUR, not in any book published by CESNUR. CESNUR’s Web site reports on CESNUR conferences but that doesn’t make Lewis a “CESNUR-published author”. Aidayoung ( talk) 12:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
This very serious accusation comes, without any evidence, from a single sentence in a single source, an article in the Communist French newspaper L’Humanité. The sensational article is mentioned in the section “Criticism” but placing the accusation in the lead too is grossly unfair. The Dutch sources cited did not say that CESNUR “defended” New Acropolis but that a scholar who was a member of New Acropolis figured in the program of the 1997 CESNUR conference. When she was identified as a member of New Acropolis, her participation was cancelled. There is not the slightest evidence that CESNUR defended the Order of the Solar Temple. There are articles on the Solar Temple in CESNUR’s Web site but they are critical. Such a serious accusation, particularly in the lead, should be supported by some evidence. Also, a reader may believe that the article on the Solar Temple quoted mentioned that CESNUR defended it, while it didn’t mention CESNUR at all. Aidayoung ( talk) 12:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Not so. CESNUR was accused of having “defended” the Order of the Solar Temple is the articles in L’Humanité and De Groene Amsterdammer, hardly major newspapers, which wrote in the context of a heavily political controversy . The third article, by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, does not mention CESNUR at all. As far as I know, the fact that an accusation has been published in a newspaper, the more so a marginal one, is not enough to accept it as a source in Wikipedia. Neither L’Humanité nor De Groene Amsterdamer offered anything as evidence for this very serious accusation. The only main article on the Solar Temple I could find published by CESNUR scholars, in a book edited by Cambridge University Press [5], does not “defend” the Solar Temple in any way and indeed deprecates its criminal activities. You added a quote from “Trouw”, an Evangelical Dutch magazine which intervened in the 1997 Amsterdam conference controversy to the effect that “After the second wave of suicide by members of the Solar Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative.” Apart from the factual mistake, as the second wave of suicides occurred in France and not in Switzerland, if one reads the Cambridge UP article by Introvigne and Mayer one understands what “acted on their own initiative” means. Introvigne and Mayer dismissed the conspiracy theories that the suicides were really homicides organized by French or other secret services, and declared that those who commits suicide decided to do it for reasons connected with their ideology. Stating that the suicides came from the “own initiative” of those who committed them rather than from some obscure conspiracy is not a “defense” of the Solar Temple. Aidayoung ( talk) 11:13, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I am willing to consider your argument but can you explain in simple words what evidence do you have that CESNUR defended the Order of the Solar Temple, except that two left-wing journalists said so but did not explain when, how, and where? Aidayoung ( talk) 15:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Apart from your usual name-calling, you imply that arguing that someone committed a crime out of his/her own will rather than because of brainwashing amounts to defending both crime and criminal. The entry makes it clear that CESNUR scholars share the (majority) opinion of NRM scholars that brainwashing does not exist. But stating that an evil deed was committed freely rather than under the enterprise of brainwashing is not a defense of that deed - on the contrary, it magnifies the responsibility of the perpetrator. Aidayoung ( talk) 13:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I don’t necessarily disagree either but I believe the position of CESNUR was more precisely stated here, in one of the first issues of their journal: [6]. Some groups are “criminal” even if they are “religious,” not because they use “brainwashing” (most CESNUR scholars believe, rightly or wrongly, that brainwashing does not exist) but because they commit horrible crimes. Aidayoung ( talk) 23:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
While leaving the part about the accusations intact, I included CESNUR's response about Aum and the Solar Temple etc. I believe it is just fair to represent both positions. Aidayoung ( talk) 16:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello, Feoffer. I thought it would be better to explain here, and not in edit summary. I am opposed to breaking the information from the Stephen Kent's article into two parts. In my opinion, it describes the situation with CESNUR rather well. It is wrong to take from it only a critical part. I would suggest leaving only this sentence in the Lead (CESNUR has been described as "the highest profile lobbying and information group for controversial religions"; many scholars, however, see it in a favourable light and share its criticism of the "sect-monitors".), and transfer the next sentence ("CESNUR's scholars have defended such diverse groups as...") to the "Criticism" section. Because there are, as I see, disputable statements, such as "neo-Nazis" from the New Acropolis.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 08:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
I frankly hope somebody else also edits Eastern Lightning but would just alert Feoffer that he needs to read Emily Dunn's book if he wants to quote it and on this I will intervene.
Emily Dunn explicitly stated that the CAG did not predict the end of the world in 2012: "some members" did, but these rogue members "appear to have done so without sanctions from the group self-proclained authorities," who declared theories about end of the world "mistaken" and expelled those promoting them (Dunn 2015 book, page 95; Feoffer's revisions have left a reference to an article by Dunn about reincarnation published in 2016 that is not about the 2012 incident).
In the same book (by no means favorable to The Church of Almighty God), Dunn noted about the McDonald's murder that "international media outlets repeated Chinese assessment" about the murder in the McDonald's but "what they overlooked were Lu Yingchun and Zhang Fan [the two leaders of the group who committed the murder]'s statements to the court that although they started out as members of Eastern Lightning... they had outgrown it" and regarded The Church of Almighty God led by Zhao Weishan as "the false 'Almighty God'," while they called their (small) group "the true 'Almighty God.'" ([Dunn 2015, page 151). Thus, long before Introvige wrote on the matter, Emily Dunn had written that it was a different group. In footnote 34, also page 151, she explains that she did not create this theory as it was presented in Chinese journalistic sources, included in a detailed article written by a journalist called Yang Feng, as early as 2014.
The only "novel theory" by Introvigne and David Bromley is that, contrary to Dunn's statement, they claimed Lu Yingchhun and Zhang Fan had not even "started out" as members of Eastern Lightning. This is based on statements by Lu Yingchun that already as a very young woman she claimed to be God (something incompatible with being a member of Eastern Lightning, which regards a different lady as God and considers highly blasphemous for other human beings to claim they are God: see [7]: "I grew up knowing that I was ‘God Himself'") and on a televised interview the Chinese authorities allowed Zhang Fan to grant from jail where she stated that she has never be able to contact The Church of Almighty God. You can hear it from the voice of Zhang Fan at [8]: "I never had contact with The Church of Almighty God because they were very secretive, and I could not find them." Aidayoung ( talk) 05:30, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
widespread agreement that Aidayoung has a conflict of interest on this topic
"though reliable sources report CENSUR has defended various groups, has changed this to "Been accused""
Most links/references are opinon/editorial pieces. Those are not objective reliable souurces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.69.183.252 ( talk) 05:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
We hoped Aida might follow a self-imposed topic ban to dissuade COI concerns, but that seems not to be the case. The solution to Aida's behavior issues should not be a 2-person revert-war, so perhaps wiser minds can find a better solution. @ Thomas.W:@ Grayfell:@ 4meter4:@ Nblund:@ Nat Gertler:@ TomStar81:@ Ymblanter:@ Nil Einne:@ Drmies:. Feoffer ( talk) 01:17, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I have edited on new religious movements and many other topics, not only CESNUR. Since continuous slander is inserted on a major scholar of NRMs (qualified as such in academic sources I have quoted), and a group described in a recent scholarly book as "the largest outlet currently supporting research on NRMs," I try to restore some balance. I would love to move on and devote my Wikipedia time to other matters, but it is difficult to see why criticism in non-mainline daily newspapers published decades ago should be included here as "reliable resource," while the assessment of CESNUR in a (perhaps "the") leading academic history of the scholarship on new religious movements should not be included. Ashcraft has no association with CESNUR and his book was reviewed inter alia by University of Sydney's Carole Cusack as "highly recommended to all interested in the history of the academic study of religion and in new religions in particular. It is warmly commended as an excellent work." See [9]. Btw, Ashcraft's book also describes Kent as part of the "cultic studies" field, i.e. the one with an anti-cult approach to the matter, although a particularly articulated one producing good work, which I don't deny (p. 8 of Ashcraft's book). I have quoted several academic sources describing Introvigne as a scholar, and "independent" means a scholar not currently affiliated with any university. When serious accusations against some persons or group are made, including how they have responded to accusations seem just fair. Aidayoung ( talk) 04:32, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
What is the problem with Ashcraft book, Feoffer? W. Michael Ashcraft seems quite a reliable scientist [10].-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 10:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
has been described in 2018 by American scholars W. Michael Ashcraft as "the largest outlet currently supporting research on NRMs"As for me, this is consistent with the example in the section "Just the facts" of WP:PEACOCK [1]. So this is a direct quote from a fairly competent author, or I don’t understand something here. Next, where is the SPI on Aidayoung? The one that I found testifies in favor of Aidayang.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:01, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
References
I am quite confused about the statements in this article about them defending the OTS - mostly because it's impossible. The OTS was very very obscure prior to the deaths, and the 2006 book The Temple of Death (about them) confirms that Jean-Francois Mayer's article on the topic was the first and only academic writing or discussion of them pre mass suicide, so they couldn't have defended them before.
After the deaths, there was no one to defend: all of the orchestrators of the death died, and there were no charges able to be put forward. The sources in the articles mention them defending them legally, not rhetorically - I guess there's an argument to be made that Introvigne's argument that some members of the OTS chose to die and were not psychologically coerced, who simply brutally murdered the rest of them, could be apologism, maybe, but that feels like a stretch given that is basically exactly what the government of Quebec concluded. PARAKANYAA ( talk) 23:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
CESNUR article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 May 2017. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | The contents of the Bitter Winter page were merged into CESNUR. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. (27 October 2019) |
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|
We include a critique from Ortega accusing CESNUR of being an 'apologist journal'. It was removed as SPS, which it is. I restored it because: 1) it verifies only a quote from the source and 2) this "CESNUR as 'apologist'/nrm-friendly" critique is found in other RSes. Additionally, Ortega is an "established expert" whose NRM-related work has been widely published, per past RS noticeboard discussion. [1]. Feoffer ( talk) 19:53, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
The article mentions Dutch criticism of CESNUR because in the program of the CESNUR conference of 1997 in Amsterdam one speaker, Maria Dolores Fernandez-Figares, was listed on New Acropolis who was discovered by investigative journalists to be a member of New Acropolis. I confess I never read the article mentioning the critiques of scholar Richard Singelenberg at https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/een-sektencongres-kan-nooit-rustig-zijn~b00c8ac6/. Now I did and found somethingh I, and presumably other editors, were not aware of: that once the membership of the lady in New Acropolis was disclosed, her participation in the conference was cancelled ("inmiddels afgeblazen"). I believe this is not an irrelevant detail Aidayoung ( talk) 09:16, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Lewis is a well-known scholar but was never “CESNUR-affiliated” according both to CESNUR’s Web sites and his own publications. In his book “Falun Gong: Spiritual Warfare and Martyrdom” (Cambridge University Press 2018) Lewis mentions his own career. It does not mention CESNUR but it makes it clear that his is a different approach. For example, while CESNUR has always been a vocal critic of China, particularly on the Falun Gong issue, Lewis states that it has a long cooperation with Chinese authorities in fighting Falun Gong. Aidayoung ( talk) 09:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC) Lewis has never published in The Journal of CESNUR, not in any book published by CESNUR. CESNUR’s Web site reports on CESNUR conferences but that doesn’t make Lewis a “CESNUR-published author”. Aidayoung ( talk) 12:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
This very serious accusation comes, without any evidence, from a single sentence in a single source, an article in the Communist French newspaper L’Humanité. The sensational article is mentioned in the section “Criticism” but placing the accusation in the lead too is grossly unfair. The Dutch sources cited did not say that CESNUR “defended” New Acropolis but that a scholar who was a member of New Acropolis figured in the program of the 1997 CESNUR conference. When she was identified as a member of New Acropolis, her participation was cancelled. There is not the slightest evidence that CESNUR defended the Order of the Solar Temple. There are articles on the Solar Temple in CESNUR’s Web site but they are critical. Such a serious accusation, particularly in the lead, should be supported by some evidence. Also, a reader may believe that the article on the Solar Temple quoted mentioned that CESNUR defended it, while it didn’t mention CESNUR at all. Aidayoung ( talk) 12:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Not so. CESNUR was accused of having “defended” the Order of the Solar Temple is the articles in L’Humanité and De Groene Amsterdammer, hardly major newspapers, which wrote in the context of a heavily political controversy . The third article, by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, does not mention CESNUR at all. As far as I know, the fact that an accusation has been published in a newspaper, the more so a marginal one, is not enough to accept it as a source in Wikipedia. Neither L’Humanité nor De Groene Amsterdamer offered anything as evidence for this very serious accusation. The only main article on the Solar Temple I could find published by CESNUR scholars, in a book edited by Cambridge University Press [5], does not “defend” the Solar Temple in any way and indeed deprecates its criminal activities. You added a quote from “Trouw”, an Evangelical Dutch magazine which intervened in the 1997 Amsterdam conference controversy to the effect that “After the second wave of suicide by members of the Solar Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative.” Apart from the factual mistake, as the second wave of suicides occurred in France and not in Switzerland, if one reads the Cambridge UP article by Introvigne and Mayer one understands what “acted on their own initiative” means. Introvigne and Mayer dismissed the conspiracy theories that the suicides were really homicides organized by French or other secret services, and declared that those who commits suicide decided to do it for reasons connected with their ideology. Stating that the suicides came from the “own initiative” of those who committed them rather than from some obscure conspiracy is not a “defense” of the Solar Temple. Aidayoung ( talk) 11:13, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I am willing to consider your argument but can you explain in simple words what evidence do you have that CESNUR defended the Order of the Solar Temple, except that two left-wing journalists said so but did not explain when, how, and where? Aidayoung ( talk) 15:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Apart from your usual name-calling, you imply that arguing that someone committed a crime out of his/her own will rather than because of brainwashing amounts to defending both crime and criminal. The entry makes it clear that CESNUR scholars share the (majority) opinion of NRM scholars that brainwashing does not exist. But stating that an evil deed was committed freely rather than under the enterprise of brainwashing is not a defense of that deed - on the contrary, it magnifies the responsibility of the perpetrator. Aidayoung ( talk) 13:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I don’t necessarily disagree either but I believe the position of CESNUR was more precisely stated here, in one of the first issues of their journal: [6]. Some groups are “criminal” even if they are “religious,” not because they use “brainwashing” (most CESNUR scholars believe, rightly or wrongly, that brainwashing does not exist) but because they commit horrible crimes. Aidayoung ( talk) 23:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
While leaving the part about the accusations intact, I included CESNUR's response about Aum and the Solar Temple etc. I believe it is just fair to represent both positions. Aidayoung ( talk) 16:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello, Feoffer. I thought it would be better to explain here, and not in edit summary. I am opposed to breaking the information from the Stephen Kent's article into two parts. In my opinion, it describes the situation with CESNUR rather well. It is wrong to take from it only a critical part. I would suggest leaving only this sentence in the Lead (CESNUR has been described as "the highest profile lobbying and information group for controversial religions"; many scholars, however, see it in a favourable light and share its criticism of the "sect-monitors".), and transfer the next sentence ("CESNUR's scholars have defended such diverse groups as...") to the "Criticism" section. Because there are, as I see, disputable statements, such as "neo-Nazis" from the New Acropolis.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 08:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
I frankly hope somebody else also edits Eastern Lightning but would just alert Feoffer that he needs to read Emily Dunn's book if he wants to quote it and on this I will intervene.
Emily Dunn explicitly stated that the CAG did not predict the end of the world in 2012: "some members" did, but these rogue members "appear to have done so without sanctions from the group self-proclained authorities," who declared theories about end of the world "mistaken" and expelled those promoting them (Dunn 2015 book, page 95; Feoffer's revisions have left a reference to an article by Dunn about reincarnation published in 2016 that is not about the 2012 incident).
In the same book (by no means favorable to The Church of Almighty God), Dunn noted about the McDonald's murder that "international media outlets repeated Chinese assessment" about the murder in the McDonald's but "what they overlooked were Lu Yingchun and Zhang Fan [the two leaders of the group who committed the murder]'s statements to the court that although they started out as members of Eastern Lightning... they had outgrown it" and regarded The Church of Almighty God led by Zhao Weishan as "the false 'Almighty God'," while they called their (small) group "the true 'Almighty God.'" ([Dunn 2015, page 151). Thus, long before Introvige wrote on the matter, Emily Dunn had written that it was a different group. In footnote 34, also page 151, she explains that she did not create this theory as it was presented in Chinese journalistic sources, included in a detailed article written by a journalist called Yang Feng, as early as 2014.
The only "novel theory" by Introvigne and David Bromley is that, contrary to Dunn's statement, they claimed Lu Yingchhun and Zhang Fan had not even "started out" as members of Eastern Lightning. This is based on statements by Lu Yingchun that already as a very young woman she claimed to be God (something incompatible with being a member of Eastern Lightning, which regards a different lady as God and considers highly blasphemous for other human beings to claim they are God: see [7]: "I grew up knowing that I was ‘God Himself'") and on a televised interview the Chinese authorities allowed Zhang Fan to grant from jail where she stated that she has never be able to contact The Church of Almighty God. You can hear it from the voice of Zhang Fan at [8]: "I never had contact with The Church of Almighty God because they were very secretive, and I could not find them." Aidayoung ( talk) 05:30, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
widespread agreement that Aidayoung has a conflict of interest on this topic
"though reliable sources report CENSUR has defended various groups, has changed this to "Been accused""
Most links/references are opinon/editorial pieces. Those are not objective reliable souurces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.69.183.252 ( talk) 05:42, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
We hoped Aida might follow a self-imposed topic ban to dissuade COI concerns, but that seems not to be the case. The solution to Aida's behavior issues should not be a 2-person revert-war, so perhaps wiser minds can find a better solution. @ Thomas.W:@ Grayfell:@ 4meter4:@ Nblund:@ Nat Gertler:@ TomStar81:@ Ymblanter:@ Nil Einne:@ Drmies:. Feoffer ( talk) 01:17, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I have edited on new religious movements and many other topics, not only CESNUR. Since continuous slander is inserted on a major scholar of NRMs (qualified as such in academic sources I have quoted), and a group described in a recent scholarly book as "the largest outlet currently supporting research on NRMs," I try to restore some balance. I would love to move on and devote my Wikipedia time to other matters, but it is difficult to see why criticism in non-mainline daily newspapers published decades ago should be included here as "reliable resource," while the assessment of CESNUR in a (perhaps "the") leading academic history of the scholarship on new religious movements should not be included. Ashcraft has no association with CESNUR and his book was reviewed inter alia by University of Sydney's Carole Cusack as "highly recommended to all interested in the history of the academic study of religion and in new religions in particular. It is warmly commended as an excellent work." See [9]. Btw, Ashcraft's book also describes Kent as part of the "cultic studies" field, i.e. the one with an anti-cult approach to the matter, although a particularly articulated one producing good work, which I don't deny (p. 8 of Ashcraft's book). I have quoted several academic sources describing Introvigne as a scholar, and "independent" means a scholar not currently affiliated with any university. When serious accusations against some persons or group are made, including how they have responded to accusations seem just fair. Aidayoung ( talk) 04:32, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
What is the problem with Ashcraft book, Feoffer? W. Michael Ashcraft seems quite a reliable scientist [10].-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 10:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
has been described in 2018 by American scholars W. Michael Ashcraft as "the largest outlet currently supporting research on NRMs"As for me, this is consistent with the example in the section "Just the facts" of WP:PEACOCK [1]. So this is a direct quote from a fairly competent author, or I don’t understand something here. Next, where is the SPI on Aidayoung? The one that I found testifies in favor of Aidayang.-- Nicoljaus ( talk) 07:01, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
References
I am quite confused about the statements in this article about them defending the OTS - mostly because it's impossible. The OTS was very very obscure prior to the deaths, and the 2006 book The Temple of Death (about them) confirms that Jean-Francois Mayer's article on the topic was the first and only academic writing or discussion of them pre mass suicide, so they couldn't have defended them before.
After the deaths, there was no one to defend: all of the orchestrators of the death died, and there were no charges able to be put forward. The sources in the articles mention them defending them legally, not rhetorically - I guess there's an argument to be made that Introvigne's argument that some members of the OTS chose to die and were not psychologically coerced, who simply brutally murdered the rest of them, could be apologism, maybe, but that feels like a stretch given that is basically exactly what the government of Quebec concluded. PARAKANYAA ( talk) 23:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)