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While Lewis certainly claimed to be an atheist, his beleif in the supernatural, paritcularly the occult, demonstrates that he used this title in error. A statement should be added to the main article page explaining that Lewis was not an actual atheist.
Under "Conversion to Christianity," this sentence doesn't seem right, "In doing so, Lewis also held a few 'fringe' beliefs that most self-proclaimed Christians would not advocate. In his famous book Mere Christianity, he seems to take a loose stand that one can lose their salvation, among other things."
First, I'd like to know what "other things." Did he not accept everything in the C of E's "Book of Common Prayer," and the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds?
Second, is it not the case that the majority of Christians belong to a denomination that allows for the possibility of apostacy or "backsliding?" I know Calvinists, found mostly in Presbyterian and some Baptist churches, believe, "Once saved, always saved," but aren't they about the only ones? 68.215.209.144 06:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that those two sentences are poorly phrased. If nothing else, the second comically suggests that a Christian might lose his car keys. More seriously, the phrase "self-proclaimed Christian" is IMHO inflammatory. As to your second point (Apostacy, Backsliding, Falling Away), there is nothing fringe about that. As was pointed out in the lo-o-ong earlier discussion, Lewis had many sympathies with Roman Catholicism, which asserts that a Christian can fall from grace and not reach heaven. But I am pretty sure (I read it somewhere in Lewis) he was all for the creeds and maybe the Book of Common Prayer. BUT, there is a kernel of truth here; the sentences are faulty but onto something! Mere Christianity has been remarked (by whom? can't recall -- Norman F. Cantor maybe) as being much more dualistic than your typical work of Christian theology; doesn't Lewis himself point out this distinctive in MC or elsewhere? Here is my proposed revision: "Lewis's Christian beliefs were orthodox but his points of view were somewhat idiosyncratic: his famous book Mere Christianity is an unusually dualistic presentation of a Christian worldview. On some issues he sides with Catholicism over Protestantism, although he was an Anglican." Help me with the last part of this sentence -- the "some issues" part sounds lame. LandruBek 13:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
". . . Lewis also held a few "fringe" beliefs that most self-proclaimed Christians would not advocate. In his famous book Mere Christianity, he seems to take a loose stand that one can lose their salvation, among other things."
The idea that someone can lose their salvation is hardly a "fringe" belief within Christianity. A "fringe" belief, by definition is not believed by a majority, while in fact, Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and Anglicanism advocate this position (as well as a good portion of Lutherans and other various Christians) which means that well over half of Christianity believes it. This is only a "fringe" belief in Evangelical Protestant circles and thus shows an Evangelical Protestant POV. IamFingolfin 13:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure the differences between Anglicans and non-Anglicans are quite as simple as that. Anglicans are certainly "closer" to Catholics in both theology and practice than some Protestant denominations (as one would expect given the raison d'être of the Anglican Church). Members of the Church of England believe in the British monarch as the Defender of the Faith, and as far as I remember, they accept the Pope is the successor to St. Peter (though they don't believe he has authority over all Christians), but I don't think Anglicans accept the British monarch as God's mouthpiece. Martin 00:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted Myopic Bookworm's last two edits, as as far as I can see, there is nothing typically Anglican about believing in Mortal Sin or Purgatory. Also, I seem to recall that in Mere Christianity (or was it the The Problem of Pain?), Lewis described himself as neither particularly High or particularly Low, so "High Church" might not be the best way to describe him. Dissenting opinions are, as always, welcome. Martin 22:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Mortal Sin and Purgatory are Catholic concepts, and while some Anglicans would agree with them they are certainly not part of Anglicanism as such. I think Lewis' churchmanship was probably pretty middle-of-the-road for his time because the evangelical wing of the CofE was in recession at the time. Nowadays he would probably be seen as upper-middle church. DJ Clayworth 13:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I decided a vote was the next appropriate step in relation to the C.S. Lewis and sadomasochism charge.
Here is the passage in question:
There is speculation that the intense discipline at Wynyard greatly traumatised Lewis and developed what biographer Alan Jacobs described as "mildly sadomasochistic fantasies". Whatever its origins, the fact of Lewis' early interest in sado-masochism and sexual torture is supported by letters he wrote to Arthur Greeves, which were sometimes signed "Philomastix" ("whip-lover"). www.newyorker.com/critics/content/articles/051121crat_atlarge 1 gloriabrame.typepad.com/inside_the_mind_of_gloria/2004/11/cs_lewissubmiss.html 2
Votes for current passage being left out entirely:
I vote the passage not be left in. ken 22:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I think it should be removed as well. KaB 15:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Petty, non-encyclopedic (voyeuristic), and pretty much speculation. Pollinator 22:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
non-encyclopedic (irrelevant) whether or not it it true. LloydSommerer 03:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Sepculation. FranksValli 21:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Out of place unless true relevance can be shown. Seems to be inserted to titilate, not to educate. 24.165.7.61 00:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Votes for current passage be left in as is:
Leave it in and move on. Jonathan Tweet 02:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Leave it in and move on. A brief mention such as this is certainly appropriate. If found necessary to remove it, then IMHO replacing it with some similar but modified version would be very appropriate. Writtenonsand 18:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Votes for current passage being modified in some way but left in:
I'm not in favour of simple votes before something has been discussed. There seem to be enough sources to justify at least some discussion, although I'm concerned that both the webs sources given are basically commentaries on the same book, so really we only have one source. Plus I'm wondering what the time frame is for these letters; when were they written and when did they stop? I'm not sure that letters written in adolescence are always a good indicator of state of mind. DJ Clayworth 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Like DJ, I think a vote is premature. I'm writing here to agree that it would be nice if we had better references. Al 17:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Bracketing “C.S. Lewis” with “sado- masochism” will get you 10,600 Google hits. I think the biography by A.N. Wilson leaves little doubt that Lewis had an interest in this subject. The question nobody seems to have addressed is "does this have any relevance to Lewis’s work"? I would argue that it does and that there are fairly plain sado-masochistic overtones to “The Lion , the Witch and the Wardrobe” in particular. That there was a sexual element to the witch’s exploitation of Edmund is evident in both the book and the recent film and many have found this uncomfortable. For this reason the innocuous and non intrusive references to Lewis’s sexuality should remain in the article. They are not irrelevant, they aid understanding of the work. The tendency to "whitewash" Lewis and present him as a plaster saint should be resisted. Dave59 15:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
You did the right thing, Martin. Al 03:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
That's a reasonable objection. What would you like to replace that phrase with? Al 12:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then it sounds like the current version is generally acceptable. All things being equal, I prefer that text be stable, but we can revisit this in the future if any new considerations come up. Al 17:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I can’t resist one final comment. I did not “show” that there is anything masochistic about “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe” because I didn’t think I had to.
There is (of course) nothing overt or explicit, but ,lets face it, Jadis is a 6 foot 2 ice-queen with waist length raven hair. Her “pale, slender” arms have the strength to bend iron bars. She enjoys enfolding naughty little boys in her fur wrap and filling their mouths with pink sticky confectionary. She is accompanied by a servile dwarf who addresses her as “Your Majesty”. She carries a whip. I could go on.
Am I alone in raising a quizzical eyebrow? Dave59 18:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
To be fair I do remember reading somewhere a letter from Lewis in which, following his experiences in WW 1.(or it could have been after learning of the holocaust) ,he says that if he ever had an interest in “cruelty” he was now cured of it. Unfortunately I can't remember where I came upon this and can't now find it. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Lewis was an out and out sado- masochist and I agree that his Christian writing suggests a deeply moral and thoughtful man who would not knowingly hurt anyone. Nevertheless the Philomastix letters do exist and they are in the public domain. I still think there are some distinctly kinky elements to the childrens stories (which haven’t stopped me from enjoying them and reading them to my own children) and ,Godless scientific rationalist that I am ,I find these idle speculations interesting rather than distasteful. Dave59 20:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Martin, I never suggested adding anything to the article, certainly nothing about Christian morality. Indeed, I never referenced his Christianity. I suggest that all of this "idle speculation" (to borrow from Dave59) is not encyclopaedic material. A greater word on his obsession (that may be a strong word) with the darker elements of Norse mythology would be more to the point, it is certainly something that Lewis himself admits of and it has indisputable bearing on his writings: The Pilgrim's Regress addresses the nihilism he later saw in it and Surprised by Joy accounts his own experiences with it, yet such mythology still greatly influenced his fiction and his nonfiction.
To Dave59: as a scientific rationalist, what is your opinion of psychoanalysis? I can find nothing scientific or rational about it and there is something distinctly distasteful to me about speculating about someone's hundred year-old fetishes, but as it is not original research, I cannot really oppose such a small addition. Srnec 01:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the second of the two sentences, the one that details his letters to Greeves. If we're going to include this information then I believe that it should be as accurate as possible, so I added some numbers instead of the vague amounts that were there before. I don't think this adds to the article, but I believe it puts the quantity in perspective. And although I'm clearly all for accuracy, I should point out that my page number in the citation is a guess. I forgot to write down the page number when I looked up the book in the library. Sorry about that. LloydSommerer 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The section on Conversion to Christianity contains a sentence that makes very little sense to me. In context, here it is:
This interpretation appears to be contradicted by a letter to a friend, in which he said: "all religions, no, mythologies to give them their proper name, have no proof whatsoever!" Later in his life, however, he began to believe in a deeper experience of some fundamentals of Western thought.
At first I thought the last sentence was a non sequitur, then I thought it was POV, and now I think it's just generally nonsensical. I'm not familiar with Lewis's conversion, though; this is actually why I was reading the article to begin with. Does that sentence make sense to anyone else, or can I delete it? JoomTory 00:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The whole paragraph really isn't very useful. It's talking about Lewis "being angry with God for not existing", which in reality is trying to express the paradox that young Lewis didn't intellectually believe there was a God, but nonetheless felt anger towards him. The paragraph is trying to turn that into rational coherent statements and then pick holes in Lewis' view, which strikes me as a singularly pointless exercise. I think the best bet is to leave Lewis' own words to stand alone. I think they sum the situation up better than any interpretation is going to. DJ Clayworth 15:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to erect this sentence up for discussion: "When he later wrote an account of his adult reconversion to Christianity". I hold that if Lewis was an atheist throughout his youth and up to his adult conversion, he could not be "reconverted", but rather he was simply "converted". If this raises no serious issue or discussion, I'm going to make the edit. - Shazbot85 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
What can we do to start improving this article to meet the standards of WP:WIAGA, or the GA (Good Article) standards. Give them a read if you already havn't and let's start picking through and get this article ready for review. - Shazbot85 15:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Why does this article make no mention of his personal life, but merely his career. I'm thinking of the fact that one of his step-sons converted to Orthdox Judaism, which must have had an interesting effect on Lewis. Dev920 22:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.
{{persondata}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 06:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is a huge deal, but I don't see any reason to change the citation style currently in use on the article. I believe that cite.php will be the best referencing style someday, but I don't think it is now, and it has some serious drawbacks.
The largest concern in my mind is that because of the "inline" placement of the reference the article is harder to edit for new users. There are other issues, and you can read about them at meta:cite and in way way too much detail on the associated talk page. Clearly, my main concern and a host of others are being addressed, and once they are cite.php will be the way to go.
I chose the harvard reference/citation style when I added the reference section, not because I think it is the wave of the future, but because I think it will be the easiest to convert to cite.php once the kinks are ironed out, while being easy for new editors in the mean time. LloydSommerer 03:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The article puts Lewis in Category:People who have declined a British honour, but currently gives no details. A little Googling found that Lewis was offered a CBE (see Order of the British Empire) in 1951 by the new Churchill government, but declined on the basis that:
See also this chronology.
We should either add something about this to the article, or delete the category tag. I prefer the former, but I can't see a good place to mention this.
What do other editors suggest doing? Cheers, CWC (talk) 12:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to pull most or all of the paragraph(s) on The Dark Tower out of this article, despite my hard work to make it readable and neutral. What do you think of moving that whole section to the Space Trilogy page? It's really not that important in the larger scheme of Lewis's life & work, and it takes up half the section. Mdotley 15:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the recent removal of all links from the lead: After reading Wikipedia:Guide to layout, I'm not convinced that the intention of the phrase "Avoid links in the summary" is a prohibition on all links in the lead. It may very well be that the current lead was over linked (I couldn't say either way), but I don't think removing all of the links is necessary. After all, the example leads on Wikipedia:Guide to layout do have links in them, and Wikipedia:Lead section does not mention avoiding links at all. LloydSommerer 00:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The author section states "(For more information about those works, see their individual articles.)". I think this should maybe be moved or deleted.-- roger6106 14:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The sentencs referencing the bronze statue of Lewis seems like it should be moved or rewritten.-- roger6106 14:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I most welcome all suggestions in regards to this section. Currently, it is very difficult to find a specific critic of Lewis' who overtly mentions his name when discussing views of his type. This limits human history to only that of the past 50 years and implies none can be a critic of his philosophy, to which the number of critics of this type of philosophy is endless, unless Lewis and these critics have a sparing of words. This makes "official criticism" of Lewis' all but impossible. As an aside, perhaps the most famous critic of Lewis' philosophy is Freud. PBS even did a highly publicized documentary on this "sparing" yet to my knowledge Freud never uttered a syllable about Lewis.
To summarize, I hope we can resolve this issue by thinking of a new proposition. Limiting criticism to "specific mentions" is not realistic in my view and I would very much like for others to suggest new alternatives. I welcome all suggestions and hope we can all agree on a suitable solution.
74.129.230.61 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The responses relative to criticism have been most helpful but I do not think they conform to Wikipedia policy. If we are to limit our definition of criticism to that which "specifically names and criticizes Lewis", Lewis' most famous documentary involving
Freud was mistaken. Let me explain, Lewis scholars maintain Freud is his biggest critic, yet our definition implies he is not. Perhaps the
specific page here can shed more light on this; also Wikipedia’s policy is best exemplified on
Saint Paul's page. Indeed, it is not Wikipedia policy to limit criticism to that which "specifically names and criticizes Lewis", rather it requires listing alternative views that only need critique the philosophy, not the person. In other words, criticism of Lewis need only address Lewis' views on moral relativity and moral authority, Wikipedia does not require the critics mention Lewis in a derogatory way.
Also I think if one were to criticize Lewis overtly the critic is more concentrated on him than his philosophy. Only those of a lowly origin would stoop to this level, this is perhaps why it is not Wikipedia policy that critics be limited to this view. Indeed, it is unfair to completely ignore the critiques offered by Freud and Einstein because they were not uneducated. They were instead objective scholars who critiqued Lewis philosophy without ostracizing him, views only appropriate for Wikipedia. I think it best if we continue to reference Wikipedia's policy and we keep the web page objective. If not, criticisms of Lewis would entail only those of biased viewpoints, these are usually hodge-podge anyway; they are most often rants against Lewis rather than scholarly debates. Do continue to offer suggestions; if not the critics section will only list opinions on Lewis that degrade him rather than offer suggestions as to how to fix some views.
74.129.230.61 15:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Anon, you have pointedly ignored almost every single argument I have raised regarding the addition of this material, and what's more, you have ignored the views that ElKevbo, roger6106, Pat Mustard and myself have expressed here.
1. Have you added this information to every Christian's biography? If not, why not?
2. Why should an article about CS Lewis attempt to rebuff his personal beliefs?
3. How can Freud be a critic of Lewis' work when he never read it?
4. Should every article about a Christian have a section about how Einstein would disagree with their views? If not, why must the Lewis article?
A "critic" of Lewis either criticises some aspect of his work, or criticises him personally. None of the quotes you added are about Lewis' work, and none of them knew Lewis personally, therefore they are not relevant. Just because Lewis was a Christian, it does not mean that it is appropriate, informative, or desirable to add refutations to various aspects of Christian doctrine to the article. The material you have added is not criticism of CS Lewis, it is criticism of theism and Christianity in general. There is already a separate article dealing with objections to Christianity, as you well know.
I am more than prepared to discuss this here, but I really can't stress enough how little I feel this adds to the article. What's more, I resent being referred to as an "individual who expresses bias over the man in question". I'm not sure what bias you're referring to; I took the time to create a section dealing with criticism of Lewis' work partly to counter any accusation that I'm being "biased", but that doesn't seem to have been noticed. Martin 20:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is this section in a biography of Lewis, especially dealing with quotes from a man speaking 40 years after Lewis' death who never knew him? That might be appropriate to the biography of the person doing the critisizing if it is relevant to him; it is not relevant to Lewis. If you look at the biography for Walt Disney, you won't find a section of criticisms about how unrealistic Bambi was and he should have had the animals eating each other (there were many references to that over the years). It just doesn't belong in a personal biography. Bbagot 18:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not know how to properly formuate an answer so you can understand, I acknowledge your addition of the criticism section, for that I am greatful. I will try to elaborate once again on why your argument against a critique of Lewis' views is flawed.
A-Either Lewis is unique in his views and thus revered...
or
B-Or he is not and not revered
You have been arguing position B, Lewis is a simply a "Christian", his Wikipedia page is in no way unique as he is not unique in his views whatsoever. This in turn causes all of us to question why he is revered in the first place.
This question is answered in proposition A, which you argued for earlier, if someone indeed is unique in their views and revered, they therefore warrant there views being listed on Wikipedia. CS Lewis cannot be a mere Christian who holds views just as everyone else, yet be revered for his bourgeois views. If you still cannot understand, I have an example:
A man named Ptolemy believed the universe revolved around the earth... a most ridiculous view. Ptolemy is unique in this view because it was supported by the church for 1500 years yet it is now openly accepted as wrong. His Wikipedia mentions his unique view and welcomes a view that discusses its fault. CS Lewis holds unique views also, one's that are mentioned on his Wikipedia web page, his views are open to discussion if indeed some find them faulty. This is what you have not grasped.
I will reference your last response: "A critic of Lewis either criticizes some aspect of his work, or criticizes him personally." His work, like Ptolemy, is his views about "theological morality". What this means is an authority is required for morality, he argues for this method via moral relativity in promotion of Christianity. These two views which are most unique to Lewis are the background for all his books, all of his writings, and the sole reason for why he is revered. To deny this is to deny that he is an apologist. If we are to accept your statement, we would limit critics only to those who mention "mere Christianity" or "the chronicles of narnia". We do not do such things in relationship to Ptolemy or any other thinker who held infamous views... much less I do not understand how one must criticize one of Lewis' work, when all of them are founded on the same fundamental viewpoint. I would also like to mention I have exhausted myself going through your arguments to refute them. Please look at any other wikipedia webpage, I do not honestly understand how a fan of CS Lewis, (I am simply assuming), can take the stance that Lewis is not unique in his views, therefore criticism is not warranted. That is simply preposterous. I will continue trying to come to an agreement. 74.129.230.61 21:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the 1st time I've tried entering a Wiki discussion; please let me know if I do something wrong.
I find this discussion very interesting, but I notice that there is one thing overlooked, throughout. It is this statement: "Lewis anomalous philosophy promotes Christianity through the divine command theory, or through the belief that morals must be based on an authority such as God."
In fact, Lewis explicitly denied believing this. E.g., "Poison of Subjectivisim" in Xian Reflections:
"...if good is to be defined as what God commands, then [it is] emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us..."
He acknowledges the dilemma between "good because God says it is" and "God says so, because it is good", & grants it is, at that level, unresolvable. He suggests the resolution will lie in the nature of God, a view I think he's getting from the doctrine of the simplicity of the divine nature, though I don't claim to understand it very well. Anyway, it's not my intention to defend the position, just to point it out.
I want to make one distinction here. It is one thing to attack this view as incomplete (it is) or incoherent (it may well be). It looks as if the common assumption, in the above discussion, is that any defense of moral absolutes must be, per se, based on the "command" model. This would seem to be incorrect; at least in Lewis's case. He did, on this point, agree with Kant. Of course, anyone may reasonably argue that Lewis's position (or any other "absolutist's") will ultimately lead to the command view. But it doesn't follow from this that he, in fact, took the command position. Probably none of us sees the ultimate conclusions to which our views lead, & we'd all probably be appalled at some of them.
I don't know if this discussion is still active, but I thought this worth pointing out. George LeS
Though there are some critics who strictly critique Lewis' works, there are many more scholars who critique his philosophy. Academic scholars who address Lewis' Christian philosophy reside mainly in the field of moral philosophy or the discernment and establishment of right and wrong.
Lewis anomalous philosophy promotes Christianity through the divine command theory, or through the belief that morals must be based on an authority such as God. This theory is seen as a self-defeating to some philosophers such as Immanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill. Moral philosopher and Professor of philosophy J. David Velleman of New York University writes about this theory:
In addition, Lewis' support of morality based on authority, seen in almost everyone of his works, specifically in Mere Christianity, is mistaken to some such as Einstein because it associates ethics with religious views. Einstein argues that this view is not necessary and instead provokes the idea of a personal God, a view he most disagrees with in regards to Lewis. Einstein further maintains that ethics should not be associated with a God, a view that requires much "conscious thought and self-education." [8] To illustrate, Einstein states in his The World as I see it that views such as Lewis on moral authority are wrong, furthermore, they are simply based on needs for love and guidance:
The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes, the God who, according to the width of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even as such, the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing, who preserves the souls of the dead... Only individuals of exceptional endowments and exceptionally high-minded communities, as a general rule, get in any real sense beyond this level...A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it goes through... A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science, The World as I see it
Lewis' unequaled apologetics also were consistent with arguments against moral relativity, or arguments against the notion that morals should be based on relative circumstances. This theory which Lewis aptly argues in most all of his works is condoned by many moral philosophers but none so much as the founder of modern psychology, Sigmund Freud. Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, believed that Lewis' disposition to argue against moral relativity in favor of the divine command theory was psychoanalytically, or genetically, explainable. Freud's explanation for this is even the subject of a documentary, [9] as he maintained that Lewis' did not care for objective analysis of a system of morals, but instead was in search of meaning in life and the desire to limit human suffrage. Freud maintained Lewis did this through the promotion of Christianity:
[Man's religion is a] system of doctrines and promises which on the one hand explains to him the riddles of this world with enviable completeness, and, on the other, assures him that a careful Providence will watch over his life and will compensate him in a future existence for any frustrations he suffers here. The common man cannot imagine this Providence otherwise than in the figure of an enormously exalted father. Only such a being can understand the needs of the children of men and be softened by their prayers and placated by the signs of remorse. The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise about this view of life…[Religion's] technique consists in depressing the value of life and distorting the picture of the real world in a delusional manner – which presupposes an intimidation of the intelligence.
— Sigmund Freud, Civilization and it’s Discontents
Perhaps it should be my goal to explain why the issue is important. There are two themes:
1)the divine command theory is inadequate for a system of morals 2) promoting the divine command theory or moral absolutism by refuting moral relativity is to poke fun at another's 'perceived strife' 3) Due to #2, moral relativity is insufficient grounds to defend Lewis view of Christianity objectively
I think each point is relevant because each point is essentially Lewis' philosophy. Lewis claims 1) the divine command theory is necessary.... 2) moral relativity is wrong.. and 3) Since number two is wrong, therefore one.
Others may be more concerned with the nuances that Lewis' says... how to live given certain daily circumstances but the above arguments essentially refute his entire philosophy. How can Christianity be objectively promoted if morals based on an authority can always be questioned and his view on relativity has nothing whatsoever to do with promoting his apologetics. I must essentially say this to start the section... I think it most neccessary. Of course this is simply my vantage point but I think the supports mentioned more than cover the objections... I think it's very much like refutting someone's theory. Although this is a page on Lewis and his theory, if you can refute his theory, one that is unmatched in the modern era, where else to put it but on Lewis' page... as it is Lewis' theory. PS - I failed to mention Spinoza's critique in the above.. I shall add it once the above text is discussed. I apologize if it's difficult to comprehend but it seems 'of the essence' that this information is presented on his web page. What would happen if a follower of Lewis' philosophy was exposd to Velleman's contradiction in a random place? I think it would be shattered, at least putting critiques against Lewis' views here allow for refutation by others later on.
74.129.230.61 23:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
You are not presenting what Einstein says about Lewis though, you are merely presenting his views on religion/morality. Because none of the criticism deals with Lewis directly, its application to Lewis' beliefs constitutes original research - it would be "a new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position". If everything you wish to add had been published in a paper by Mr World Famous Theologian, then it would warrant inclusion without question. But only because it had been mentioned by Mr World Famous Theologian, not because it was objective/subjective or true/false. In fact, if Mr World Famous Theologian had an emotional breakdown, and then published a paper claiming he didn't like CS Lewis because he sodomised leprechauns on St. Patrick's Day, that would even warrant inclusion in a criticism section, despite being obvious nonsense. (this is an extreme example of course, but I'm just trying to illustrate a point)
Am I making any sense?
p.s. perhaps I should also explain the rationale behind moving something to the talk page. The idea is that when a passage is disputed, it can be moved to the talk page for discussion among editors. People can suggest changes to it as they see fit, and it means that the main article doesn't get reverted every 10 seconds. If you make changes to the version on the talk page, it means that everyone who views the talk page can see your most recent revision and it makes it easier to follow a discussion about it. Martin 23:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
74.129.230.61 01:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I am blind. If the issue at hand has truly been this: "You cannot add your own theories about Lewis' philosophies to the article. It is not Freud or Einstein's quotes that are unpublished, it is your application of them to Lewis' beliefs. I have explained this several times now," and our goal is truly collaboration. Please provide sentences, words, paragraphs for us to fix so it applies correctly in your personal view rather than delete all of the material. 74.129.230.61 02:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with a new article being created as long as such a link is offered on Lewis' page. One thing I think unfair is that the rules on the new article would not apply to the old when I spent much time trying to conform to the latter. O well. All help appreciated, I am going to go eat some rice and some chicken, 74.129.230.61 02:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you defend Lewis under such objections from notable authorities? In many senses when Lewis appeals to God or scripture it is no different than one appeals to a scientist to believe a particular thing, however the psychology behind religion is very intriguing. Also a historical outlook on life, perhaps the idea that we descend from barbarians, makes it very difficult for me to entertain Lewis' views seriously. When I think of him I think of a human being striving for meaning... something that is inherent in all of us, the more powerful the search the more powerful the desire to overcome hardship or pain... its usually rare a man is granted fate's hand and becomes more devout religously on a permanent basis. This is not an attempt to debate... I actually feel like it's a couple making up after they've been in a fight...I am drawn into some of your views though you haven't proclaimed them. I am not interested in debate at all, I will even offer to keep quiet. :)
I feel like talking so I shall go further, have any of you pondered whether God can walk? Or does God see in color? It seems our ability to discern colors is not perfect, perhaps his is more perfect? Or is a god who made the laws of nature transcendent? 74.129.230.61 02:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I have started a new section as there seems to be a discrepancy over the criticism section, if you wish to erase it, you must provide reasons for how to fix it, less this is just continually a cycle where the eraser proves he simply does NOT want the information. I find it odd that so many can dispute for hours yet the second suggestions are requested so the material can remain all stop offering comment. It seems many are more interested in leaving the material out for whatever reason than leaving it in, irrecovable of policy compliance. If you wish to suggest anything, do so here, and leave comments as to how to fix it so it can remain. Biblical1
The section on Freud is not appropriate, because he died before Lewis published his apologetics books. Using Freud's theories to rebuff Lewis' is your argument, not Freud's. Lewis wasn't even a Christian when Freud wrote the work quoted in the article. Freud said nothing about Lewis, so you cannot say "Freud believed that Lewis' disposition to argue against moral relativity...." or "he maintained that Lewis did not care for objective analysis".
How can you say how Freud would react to books written after his death? How do you know that he wouldn't have converted to Christianity because of them? Plenty of other people have. Granted, it seems unlikely, but that isn't good enough.
I'm not sure how many times I can say it, so here goes in bold: the only way you can add mention of Freud's theories as criticism of Lewis' is if you mention a notable authority who has used this argument in refuting Lewis.
Unless you can provide a reference for the application of Freud's theories to Lewis' work, please do not add it to the article. Martin 14:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose we remove the Toynbee comments for the reasons listed above, she is not qualified to have an informed opinion. Pat Mustard 16:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The order of the subjects are confusing and out of order timewise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Guolin ( talk • contribs) 00:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC).
I'm trying to find a formulation that communicates the very common understanding in modern secular academia that Jesus didn't claim to be God without overstating the case. To say that "some scholars" reach such a conclusion is to understate the case. There's all manner of off-track, minority ideas that "some scholars" conclude. Jonathan Tweet 18:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The trilemma gets a pretty good going over on another page. Let's cut the elaboration from this page and move all the arguments pro and con to the trilemma page. Jonathan Tweet 02:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I added a paragraph on the academic context for Lewis's trilemma. It was effectively an answer to the ungodly view that had recently insinuated itself into academe -- that Jesus' miracles were mere myths and that Jesus was nothing more than a wise mortal man. Lewis's conflict with Wells shows up in That Hideous Strength, where "Jules" is a clear parody of the materialist, socialist Wells. Jonathan Tweet 03:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a pejorative term to both C.S. Lewis and Christianity. I don't see why his writings on christianity should presuppose that a. he was engaging in some form of reconstruction of christan history or apologism, and b. that christanianity is indeed in merit of apologists. A title such as Christian writings, or something more eloquently put but similar in meaning and scope should suffice. 05:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.5.22.27 ( talk • contribs) 05:47, November 2, 2006
I added a summary paragraph in the biography section. This paragraph lets the reader get a read on Lewis's personal life in one bite, much better than making them work through the very detailed biography proper. I make no pretenses to have done an excellent job, and it would not surprise me if I've made errors. Jonathan Tweet 05:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
In Surprised by Joy there is a comment on the pederastic practices at his school, which he names "Wyvern" but I see here that the school he went to was actually named "Wynyard". Any thoughts on this discrepancy? Also any thoughts on including his defense of pederasty in this article? Haiduc 03:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Correction, it was at Malvern College, when talking about relations between the Bloods and the Tarts. The question about inclusion still stands. Haiduc 05:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to make a big deal of this, but it seems bad form to repeat material already addressed in the article intro, and if those major items are taken out the rest does not stand on its own. In brief, one appetizer is enough, now the main course. Haiduc 23:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"Life" and "works." The article is already broken up into those two sections. "Biography" is Lewis's personal life, mostly. "Career" is his works. What other division would you consider? Jonathan Tweet 15:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
In September 1913 Lewis enrolled at Malvern College, where he would remain until the following June. Later he would describe its culture as a "burning desert of competitive ambition" relieved only by the "oasis" of pederastic loves between upperclassmen and the younger students, which he refused to criticise. (Lewis 1966, p. 107) After leaving Malvern he moved to study privately with William T. Kirkpatrick, his father's old tutor and former headmaster of Lurgan College.
I'm looking at this reference, and don't see how it supports saying "which he refused to criticise". What he said was that there were worse things to criticise than that. Can anyone point to another reference? or can this be removed? LloydSommerer 12:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have again reverted attempts to label Lewis specifically as "Northern Irish". Lewis's self-identification as Irish is notable, because some contributors are under the mistaken impression that, because he was a British writer who wrote in English, he was of English nationality. It is not accurate to refer to him as Northern Irish, since he was born in a united Ireland under British rule, and before the introduction of the administrative entity called "Northern Ireland" in 1920. He was not "exempted from military service" in World War I, but the United Kingdom authorities recognized him as Irish (not "Northern Irish": the term didn't exist), and so exempted from compulsory military conscription, since conscription was (for political reasons) not introduced in Ireland. I think that the fact that he was born in Belfast, and that Belfast is now in Northern Ireland, is quite clear enough in the article. Myopic Bookworm 12:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Lewis was born into a Protestant family and not a Catholic family. I think this is much more important than his nationality and should be mentioned in the introduction. As for his nationality, he did call himself Irish but he also, at times, called himself English and he told Sayer that he was "more Welsh than anything." It is quite possible to feel that you belong to more than one country, after all. I think that the fact that Lewis felt that he was both Irish and English (and Welsh) should be mentioned. KaB 17:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is silly and pointless. Lewis was born in Ireland, considered himself Irish. Although he lived in England. He is and was Irish. Northern Irish doesn't come into the argument. Codu talk contribs email 14:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I was just wondering if any of you had access to original copies of any of the chronicles of narnia books. If you could upload the images for the cover art on the respective pages it would be much appreciated. Thanks. b_cubed 03:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the removal of the criticism section because it is entirely appropriate here. Lewis is and has been a controversial figure for both his theological works and fiction. That biographies of him do not include such material is irrelevant - this is Wikipedia. Material of this nature can sometimes date quickly, and so any printed biography which included it would likely date badly. We of course, do not have to worry about concerns of that nature here. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Martin 17:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the second removal of the criticism section. It's wikipedia policy to be abundant and redundant, especially to settle revert wars. I recommend that we create a new page with this information and merely summarize it here. I also recommend we do that with the other sections, as this page is too long. Jonathan Tweet 03:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
While Lewis certainly claimed to be an atheist, his beleif in the supernatural, paritcularly the occult, demonstrates that he used this title in error. A statement should be added to the main article page explaining that Lewis was not an actual atheist.
Under "Conversion to Christianity," this sentence doesn't seem right, "In doing so, Lewis also held a few 'fringe' beliefs that most self-proclaimed Christians would not advocate. In his famous book Mere Christianity, he seems to take a loose stand that one can lose their salvation, among other things."
First, I'd like to know what "other things." Did he not accept everything in the C of E's "Book of Common Prayer," and the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds?
Second, is it not the case that the majority of Christians belong to a denomination that allows for the possibility of apostacy or "backsliding?" I know Calvinists, found mostly in Presbyterian and some Baptist churches, believe, "Once saved, always saved," but aren't they about the only ones? 68.215.209.144 06:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that those two sentences are poorly phrased. If nothing else, the second comically suggests that a Christian might lose his car keys. More seriously, the phrase "self-proclaimed Christian" is IMHO inflammatory. As to your second point (Apostacy, Backsliding, Falling Away), there is nothing fringe about that. As was pointed out in the lo-o-ong earlier discussion, Lewis had many sympathies with Roman Catholicism, which asserts that a Christian can fall from grace and not reach heaven. But I am pretty sure (I read it somewhere in Lewis) he was all for the creeds and maybe the Book of Common Prayer. BUT, there is a kernel of truth here; the sentences are faulty but onto something! Mere Christianity has been remarked (by whom? can't recall -- Norman F. Cantor maybe) as being much more dualistic than your typical work of Christian theology; doesn't Lewis himself point out this distinctive in MC or elsewhere? Here is my proposed revision: "Lewis's Christian beliefs were orthodox but his points of view were somewhat idiosyncratic: his famous book Mere Christianity is an unusually dualistic presentation of a Christian worldview. On some issues he sides with Catholicism over Protestantism, although he was an Anglican." Help me with the last part of this sentence -- the "some issues" part sounds lame. LandruBek 13:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
". . . Lewis also held a few "fringe" beliefs that most self-proclaimed Christians would not advocate. In his famous book Mere Christianity, he seems to take a loose stand that one can lose their salvation, among other things."
The idea that someone can lose their salvation is hardly a "fringe" belief within Christianity. A "fringe" belief, by definition is not believed by a majority, while in fact, Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and Anglicanism advocate this position (as well as a good portion of Lutherans and other various Christians) which means that well over half of Christianity believes it. This is only a "fringe" belief in Evangelical Protestant circles and thus shows an Evangelical Protestant POV. IamFingolfin 13:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure the differences between Anglicans and non-Anglicans are quite as simple as that. Anglicans are certainly "closer" to Catholics in both theology and practice than some Protestant denominations (as one would expect given the raison d'être of the Anglican Church). Members of the Church of England believe in the British monarch as the Defender of the Faith, and as far as I remember, they accept the Pope is the successor to St. Peter (though they don't believe he has authority over all Christians), but I don't think Anglicans accept the British monarch as God's mouthpiece. Martin 00:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted Myopic Bookworm's last two edits, as as far as I can see, there is nothing typically Anglican about believing in Mortal Sin or Purgatory. Also, I seem to recall that in Mere Christianity (or was it the The Problem of Pain?), Lewis described himself as neither particularly High or particularly Low, so "High Church" might not be the best way to describe him. Dissenting opinions are, as always, welcome. Martin 22:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Mortal Sin and Purgatory are Catholic concepts, and while some Anglicans would agree with them they are certainly not part of Anglicanism as such. I think Lewis' churchmanship was probably pretty middle-of-the-road for his time because the evangelical wing of the CofE was in recession at the time. Nowadays he would probably be seen as upper-middle church. DJ Clayworth 13:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I decided a vote was the next appropriate step in relation to the C.S. Lewis and sadomasochism charge.
Here is the passage in question:
There is speculation that the intense discipline at Wynyard greatly traumatised Lewis and developed what biographer Alan Jacobs described as "mildly sadomasochistic fantasies". Whatever its origins, the fact of Lewis' early interest in sado-masochism and sexual torture is supported by letters he wrote to Arthur Greeves, which were sometimes signed "Philomastix" ("whip-lover"). www.newyorker.com/critics/content/articles/051121crat_atlarge 1 gloriabrame.typepad.com/inside_the_mind_of_gloria/2004/11/cs_lewissubmiss.html 2
Votes for current passage being left out entirely:
I vote the passage not be left in. ken 22:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
I think it should be removed as well. KaB 15:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Petty, non-encyclopedic (voyeuristic), and pretty much speculation. Pollinator 22:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
non-encyclopedic (irrelevant) whether or not it it true. LloydSommerer 03:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Sepculation. FranksValli 21:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Out of place unless true relevance can be shown. Seems to be inserted to titilate, not to educate. 24.165.7.61 00:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Votes for current passage be left in as is:
Leave it in and move on. Jonathan Tweet 02:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Leave it in and move on. A brief mention such as this is certainly appropriate. If found necessary to remove it, then IMHO replacing it with some similar but modified version would be very appropriate. Writtenonsand 18:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Votes for current passage being modified in some way but left in:
I'm not in favour of simple votes before something has been discussed. There seem to be enough sources to justify at least some discussion, although I'm concerned that both the webs sources given are basically commentaries on the same book, so really we only have one source. Plus I'm wondering what the time frame is for these letters; when were they written and when did they stop? I'm not sure that letters written in adolescence are always a good indicator of state of mind. DJ Clayworth 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Like DJ, I think a vote is premature. I'm writing here to agree that it would be nice if we had better references. Al 17:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Bracketing “C.S. Lewis” with “sado- masochism” will get you 10,600 Google hits. I think the biography by A.N. Wilson leaves little doubt that Lewis had an interest in this subject. The question nobody seems to have addressed is "does this have any relevance to Lewis’s work"? I would argue that it does and that there are fairly plain sado-masochistic overtones to “The Lion , the Witch and the Wardrobe” in particular. That there was a sexual element to the witch’s exploitation of Edmund is evident in both the book and the recent film and many have found this uncomfortable. For this reason the innocuous and non intrusive references to Lewis’s sexuality should remain in the article. They are not irrelevant, they aid understanding of the work. The tendency to "whitewash" Lewis and present him as a plaster saint should be resisted. Dave59 15:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
You did the right thing, Martin. Al 03:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
That's a reasonable objection. What would you like to replace that phrase with? Al 12:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then it sounds like the current version is generally acceptable. All things being equal, I prefer that text be stable, but we can revisit this in the future if any new considerations come up. Al 17:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I can’t resist one final comment. I did not “show” that there is anything masochistic about “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe” because I didn’t think I had to.
There is (of course) nothing overt or explicit, but ,lets face it, Jadis is a 6 foot 2 ice-queen with waist length raven hair. Her “pale, slender” arms have the strength to bend iron bars. She enjoys enfolding naughty little boys in her fur wrap and filling their mouths with pink sticky confectionary. She is accompanied by a servile dwarf who addresses her as “Your Majesty”. She carries a whip. I could go on.
Am I alone in raising a quizzical eyebrow? Dave59 18:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
To be fair I do remember reading somewhere a letter from Lewis in which, following his experiences in WW 1.(or it could have been after learning of the holocaust) ,he says that if he ever had an interest in “cruelty” he was now cured of it. Unfortunately I can't remember where I came upon this and can't now find it. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Lewis was an out and out sado- masochist and I agree that his Christian writing suggests a deeply moral and thoughtful man who would not knowingly hurt anyone. Nevertheless the Philomastix letters do exist and they are in the public domain. I still think there are some distinctly kinky elements to the childrens stories (which haven’t stopped me from enjoying them and reading them to my own children) and ,Godless scientific rationalist that I am ,I find these idle speculations interesting rather than distasteful. Dave59 20:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Martin, I never suggested adding anything to the article, certainly nothing about Christian morality. Indeed, I never referenced his Christianity. I suggest that all of this "idle speculation" (to borrow from Dave59) is not encyclopaedic material. A greater word on his obsession (that may be a strong word) with the darker elements of Norse mythology would be more to the point, it is certainly something that Lewis himself admits of and it has indisputable bearing on his writings: The Pilgrim's Regress addresses the nihilism he later saw in it and Surprised by Joy accounts his own experiences with it, yet such mythology still greatly influenced his fiction and his nonfiction.
To Dave59: as a scientific rationalist, what is your opinion of psychoanalysis? I can find nothing scientific or rational about it and there is something distinctly distasteful to me about speculating about someone's hundred year-old fetishes, but as it is not original research, I cannot really oppose such a small addition. Srnec 01:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the second of the two sentences, the one that details his letters to Greeves. If we're going to include this information then I believe that it should be as accurate as possible, so I added some numbers instead of the vague amounts that were there before. I don't think this adds to the article, but I believe it puts the quantity in perspective. And although I'm clearly all for accuracy, I should point out that my page number in the citation is a guess. I forgot to write down the page number when I looked up the book in the library. Sorry about that. LloydSommerer 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The section on Conversion to Christianity contains a sentence that makes very little sense to me. In context, here it is:
This interpretation appears to be contradicted by a letter to a friend, in which he said: "all religions, no, mythologies to give them their proper name, have no proof whatsoever!" Later in his life, however, he began to believe in a deeper experience of some fundamentals of Western thought.
At first I thought the last sentence was a non sequitur, then I thought it was POV, and now I think it's just generally nonsensical. I'm not familiar with Lewis's conversion, though; this is actually why I was reading the article to begin with. Does that sentence make sense to anyone else, or can I delete it? JoomTory 00:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The whole paragraph really isn't very useful. It's talking about Lewis "being angry with God for not existing", which in reality is trying to express the paradox that young Lewis didn't intellectually believe there was a God, but nonetheless felt anger towards him. The paragraph is trying to turn that into rational coherent statements and then pick holes in Lewis' view, which strikes me as a singularly pointless exercise. I think the best bet is to leave Lewis' own words to stand alone. I think they sum the situation up better than any interpretation is going to. DJ Clayworth 15:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to erect this sentence up for discussion: "When he later wrote an account of his adult reconversion to Christianity". I hold that if Lewis was an atheist throughout his youth and up to his adult conversion, he could not be "reconverted", but rather he was simply "converted". If this raises no serious issue or discussion, I'm going to make the edit. - Shazbot85 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
What can we do to start improving this article to meet the standards of WP:WIAGA, or the GA (Good Article) standards. Give them a read if you already havn't and let's start picking through and get this article ready for review. - Shazbot85 15:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Why does this article make no mention of his personal life, but merely his career. I'm thinking of the fact that one of his step-sons converted to Orthdox Judaism, which must have had an interesting effect on Lewis. Dev920 22:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.
{{persondata}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 06:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is a huge deal, but I don't see any reason to change the citation style currently in use on the article. I believe that cite.php will be the best referencing style someday, but I don't think it is now, and it has some serious drawbacks.
The largest concern in my mind is that because of the "inline" placement of the reference the article is harder to edit for new users. There are other issues, and you can read about them at meta:cite and in way way too much detail on the associated talk page. Clearly, my main concern and a host of others are being addressed, and once they are cite.php will be the way to go.
I chose the harvard reference/citation style when I added the reference section, not because I think it is the wave of the future, but because I think it will be the easiest to convert to cite.php once the kinks are ironed out, while being easy for new editors in the mean time. LloydSommerer 03:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The article puts Lewis in Category:People who have declined a British honour, but currently gives no details. A little Googling found that Lewis was offered a CBE (see Order of the British Empire) in 1951 by the new Churchill government, but declined on the basis that:
See also this chronology.
We should either add something about this to the article, or delete the category tag. I prefer the former, but I can't see a good place to mention this.
What do other editors suggest doing? Cheers, CWC (talk) 12:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to pull most or all of the paragraph(s) on The Dark Tower out of this article, despite my hard work to make it readable and neutral. What do you think of moving that whole section to the Space Trilogy page? It's really not that important in the larger scheme of Lewis's life & work, and it takes up half the section. Mdotley 15:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the recent removal of all links from the lead: After reading Wikipedia:Guide to layout, I'm not convinced that the intention of the phrase "Avoid links in the summary" is a prohibition on all links in the lead. It may very well be that the current lead was over linked (I couldn't say either way), but I don't think removing all of the links is necessary. After all, the example leads on Wikipedia:Guide to layout do have links in them, and Wikipedia:Lead section does not mention avoiding links at all. LloydSommerer 00:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The author section states "(For more information about those works, see their individual articles.)". I think this should maybe be moved or deleted.-- roger6106 14:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The sentencs referencing the bronze statue of Lewis seems like it should be moved or rewritten.-- roger6106 14:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I most welcome all suggestions in regards to this section. Currently, it is very difficult to find a specific critic of Lewis' who overtly mentions his name when discussing views of his type. This limits human history to only that of the past 50 years and implies none can be a critic of his philosophy, to which the number of critics of this type of philosophy is endless, unless Lewis and these critics have a sparing of words. This makes "official criticism" of Lewis' all but impossible. As an aside, perhaps the most famous critic of Lewis' philosophy is Freud. PBS even did a highly publicized documentary on this "sparing" yet to my knowledge Freud never uttered a syllable about Lewis.
To summarize, I hope we can resolve this issue by thinking of a new proposition. Limiting criticism to "specific mentions" is not realistic in my view and I would very much like for others to suggest new alternatives. I welcome all suggestions and hope we can all agree on a suitable solution.
74.129.230.61 18:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The responses relative to criticism have been most helpful but I do not think they conform to Wikipedia policy. If we are to limit our definition of criticism to that which "specifically names and criticizes Lewis", Lewis' most famous documentary involving
Freud was mistaken. Let me explain, Lewis scholars maintain Freud is his biggest critic, yet our definition implies he is not. Perhaps the
specific page here can shed more light on this; also Wikipedia’s policy is best exemplified on
Saint Paul's page. Indeed, it is not Wikipedia policy to limit criticism to that which "specifically names and criticizes Lewis", rather it requires listing alternative views that only need critique the philosophy, not the person. In other words, criticism of Lewis need only address Lewis' views on moral relativity and moral authority, Wikipedia does not require the critics mention Lewis in a derogatory way.
Also I think if one were to criticize Lewis overtly the critic is more concentrated on him than his philosophy. Only those of a lowly origin would stoop to this level, this is perhaps why it is not Wikipedia policy that critics be limited to this view. Indeed, it is unfair to completely ignore the critiques offered by Freud and Einstein because they were not uneducated. They were instead objective scholars who critiqued Lewis philosophy without ostracizing him, views only appropriate for Wikipedia. I think it best if we continue to reference Wikipedia's policy and we keep the web page objective. If not, criticisms of Lewis would entail only those of biased viewpoints, these are usually hodge-podge anyway; they are most often rants against Lewis rather than scholarly debates. Do continue to offer suggestions; if not the critics section will only list opinions on Lewis that degrade him rather than offer suggestions as to how to fix some views.
74.129.230.61 15:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Anon, you have pointedly ignored almost every single argument I have raised regarding the addition of this material, and what's more, you have ignored the views that ElKevbo, roger6106, Pat Mustard and myself have expressed here.
1. Have you added this information to every Christian's biography? If not, why not?
2. Why should an article about CS Lewis attempt to rebuff his personal beliefs?
3. How can Freud be a critic of Lewis' work when he never read it?
4. Should every article about a Christian have a section about how Einstein would disagree with their views? If not, why must the Lewis article?
A "critic" of Lewis either criticises some aspect of his work, or criticises him personally. None of the quotes you added are about Lewis' work, and none of them knew Lewis personally, therefore they are not relevant. Just because Lewis was a Christian, it does not mean that it is appropriate, informative, or desirable to add refutations to various aspects of Christian doctrine to the article. The material you have added is not criticism of CS Lewis, it is criticism of theism and Christianity in general. There is already a separate article dealing with objections to Christianity, as you well know.
I am more than prepared to discuss this here, but I really can't stress enough how little I feel this adds to the article. What's more, I resent being referred to as an "individual who expresses bias over the man in question". I'm not sure what bias you're referring to; I took the time to create a section dealing with criticism of Lewis' work partly to counter any accusation that I'm being "biased", but that doesn't seem to have been noticed. Martin 20:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is this section in a biography of Lewis, especially dealing with quotes from a man speaking 40 years after Lewis' death who never knew him? That might be appropriate to the biography of the person doing the critisizing if it is relevant to him; it is not relevant to Lewis. If you look at the biography for Walt Disney, you won't find a section of criticisms about how unrealistic Bambi was and he should have had the animals eating each other (there were many references to that over the years). It just doesn't belong in a personal biography. Bbagot 18:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not know how to properly formuate an answer so you can understand, I acknowledge your addition of the criticism section, for that I am greatful. I will try to elaborate once again on why your argument against a critique of Lewis' views is flawed.
A-Either Lewis is unique in his views and thus revered...
or
B-Or he is not and not revered
You have been arguing position B, Lewis is a simply a "Christian", his Wikipedia page is in no way unique as he is not unique in his views whatsoever. This in turn causes all of us to question why he is revered in the first place.
This question is answered in proposition A, which you argued for earlier, if someone indeed is unique in their views and revered, they therefore warrant there views being listed on Wikipedia. CS Lewis cannot be a mere Christian who holds views just as everyone else, yet be revered for his bourgeois views. If you still cannot understand, I have an example:
A man named Ptolemy believed the universe revolved around the earth... a most ridiculous view. Ptolemy is unique in this view because it was supported by the church for 1500 years yet it is now openly accepted as wrong. His Wikipedia mentions his unique view and welcomes a view that discusses its fault. CS Lewis holds unique views also, one's that are mentioned on his Wikipedia web page, his views are open to discussion if indeed some find them faulty. This is what you have not grasped.
I will reference your last response: "A critic of Lewis either criticizes some aspect of his work, or criticizes him personally." His work, like Ptolemy, is his views about "theological morality". What this means is an authority is required for morality, he argues for this method via moral relativity in promotion of Christianity. These two views which are most unique to Lewis are the background for all his books, all of his writings, and the sole reason for why he is revered. To deny this is to deny that he is an apologist. If we are to accept your statement, we would limit critics only to those who mention "mere Christianity" or "the chronicles of narnia". We do not do such things in relationship to Ptolemy or any other thinker who held infamous views... much less I do not understand how one must criticize one of Lewis' work, when all of them are founded on the same fundamental viewpoint. I would also like to mention I have exhausted myself going through your arguments to refute them. Please look at any other wikipedia webpage, I do not honestly understand how a fan of CS Lewis, (I am simply assuming), can take the stance that Lewis is not unique in his views, therefore criticism is not warranted. That is simply preposterous. I will continue trying to come to an agreement. 74.129.230.61 21:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the 1st time I've tried entering a Wiki discussion; please let me know if I do something wrong.
I find this discussion very interesting, but I notice that there is one thing overlooked, throughout. It is this statement: "Lewis anomalous philosophy promotes Christianity through the divine command theory, or through the belief that morals must be based on an authority such as God."
In fact, Lewis explicitly denied believing this. E.g., "Poison of Subjectivisim" in Xian Reflections:
"...if good is to be defined as what God commands, then [it is] emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us..."
He acknowledges the dilemma between "good because God says it is" and "God says so, because it is good", & grants it is, at that level, unresolvable. He suggests the resolution will lie in the nature of God, a view I think he's getting from the doctrine of the simplicity of the divine nature, though I don't claim to understand it very well. Anyway, it's not my intention to defend the position, just to point it out.
I want to make one distinction here. It is one thing to attack this view as incomplete (it is) or incoherent (it may well be). It looks as if the common assumption, in the above discussion, is that any defense of moral absolutes must be, per se, based on the "command" model. This would seem to be incorrect; at least in Lewis's case. He did, on this point, agree with Kant. Of course, anyone may reasonably argue that Lewis's position (or any other "absolutist's") will ultimately lead to the command view. But it doesn't follow from this that he, in fact, took the command position. Probably none of us sees the ultimate conclusions to which our views lead, & we'd all probably be appalled at some of them.
I don't know if this discussion is still active, but I thought this worth pointing out. George LeS
Though there are some critics who strictly critique Lewis' works, there are many more scholars who critique his philosophy. Academic scholars who address Lewis' Christian philosophy reside mainly in the field of moral philosophy or the discernment and establishment of right and wrong.
Lewis anomalous philosophy promotes Christianity through the divine command theory, or through the belief that morals must be based on an authority such as God. This theory is seen as a self-defeating to some philosophers such as Immanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill. Moral philosopher and Professor of philosophy J. David Velleman of New York University writes about this theory:
In addition, Lewis' support of morality based on authority, seen in almost everyone of his works, specifically in Mere Christianity, is mistaken to some such as Einstein because it associates ethics with religious views. Einstein argues that this view is not necessary and instead provokes the idea of a personal God, a view he most disagrees with in regards to Lewis. Einstein further maintains that ethics should not be associated with a God, a view that requires much "conscious thought and self-education." [8] To illustrate, Einstein states in his The World as I see it that views such as Lewis on moral authority are wrong, furthermore, they are simply based on needs for love and guidance:
The desire for guidance, love, and support prompts men to form the social or moral conception of God. This is the God of Providence who protects, disposes, rewards, and punishes, the God who, according to the width of the believer's outlook, loves and cherishes the life of the tribe or of the human race, or even as such, the comforter in sorrow and unsatisfied longing, who preserves the souls of the dead... Only individuals of exceptional endowments and exceptionally high-minded communities, as a general rule, get in any real sense beyond this level...A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it goes through... A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science, The World as I see it
Lewis' unequaled apologetics also were consistent with arguments against moral relativity, or arguments against the notion that morals should be based on relative circumstances. This theory which Lewis aptly argues in most all of his works is condoned by many moral philosophers but none so much as the founder of modern psychology, Sigmund Freud. Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, believed that Lewis' disposition to argue against moral relativity in favor of the divine command theory was psychoanalytically, or genetically, explainable. Freud's explanation for this is even the subject of a documentary, [9] as he maintained that Lewis' did not care for objective analysis of a system of morals, but instead was in search of meaning in life and the desire to limit human suffrage. Freud maintained Lewis did this through the promotion of Christianity:
[Man's religion is a] system of doctrines and promises which on the one hand explains to him the riddles of this world with enviable completeness, and, on the other, assures him that a careful Providence will watch over his life and will compensate him in a future existence for any frustrations he suffers here. The common man cannot imagine this Providence otherwise than in the figure of an enormously exalted father. Only such a being can understand the needs of the children of men and be softened by their prayers and placated by the signs of remorse. The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise about this view of life…[Religion's] technique consists in depressing the value of life and distorting the picture of the real world in a delusional manner – which presupposes an intimidation of the intelligence.
— Sigmund Freud, Civilization and it’s Discontents
Perhaps it should be my goal to explain why the issue is important. There are two themes:
1)the divine command theory is inadequate for a system of morals 2) promoting the divine command theory or moral absolutism by refuting moral relativity is to poke fun at another's 'perceived strife' 3) Due to #2, moral relativity is insufficient grounds to defend Lewis view of Christianity objectively
I think each point is relevant because each point is essentially Lewis' philosophy. Lewis claims 1) the divine command theory is necessary.... 2) moral relativity is wrong.. and 3) Since number two is wrong, therefore one.
Others may be more concerned with the nuances that Lewis' says... how to live given certain daily circumstances but the above arguments essentially refute his entire philosophy. How can Christianity be objectively promoted if morals based on an authority can always be questioned and his view on relativity has nothing whatsoever to do with promoting his apologetics. I must essentially say this to start the section... I think it most neccessary. Of course this is simply my vantage point but I think the supports mentioned more than cover the objections... I think it's very much like refutting someone's theory. Although this is a page on Lewis and his theory, if you can refute his theory, one that is unmatched in the modern era, where else to put it but on Lewis' page... as it is Lewis' theory. PS - I failed to mention Spinoza's critique in the above.. I shall add it once the above text is discussed. I apologize if it's difficult to comprehend but it seems 'of the essence' that this information is presented on his web page. What would happen if a follower of Lewis' philosophy was exposd to Velleman's contradiction in a random place? I think it would be shattered, at least putting critiques against Lewis' views here allow for refutation by others later on.
74.129.230.61 23:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
You are not presenting what Einstein says about Lewis though, you are merely presenting his views on religion/morality. Because none of the criticism deals with Lewis directly, its application to Lewis' beliefs constitutes original research - it would be "a new analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position". If everything you wish to add had been published in a paper by Mr World Famous Theologian, then it would warrant inclusion without question. But only because it had been mentioned by Mr World Famous Theologian, not because it was objective/subjective or true/false. In fact, if Mr World Famous Theologian had an emotional breakdown, and then published a paper claiming he didn't like CS Lewis because he sodomised leprechauns on St. Patrick's Day, that would even warrant inclusion in a criticism section, despite being obvious nonsense. (this is an extreme example of course, but I'm just trying to illustrate a point)
Am I making any sense?
p.s. perhaps I should also explain the rationale behind moving something to the talk page. The idea is that when a passage is disputed, it can be moved to the talk page for discussion among editors. People can suggest changes to it as they see fit, and it means that the main article doesn't get reverted every 10 seconds. If you make changes to the version on the talk page, it means that everyone who views the talk page can see your most recent revision and it makes it easier to follow a discussion about it. Martin 23:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
74.129.230.61 01:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I am blind. If the issue at hand has truly been this: "You cannot add your own theories about Lewis' philosophies to the article. It is not Freud or Einstein's quotes that are unpublished, it is your application of them to Lewis' beliefs. I have explained this several times now," and our goal is truly collaboration. Please provide sentences, words, paragraphs for us to fix so it applies correctly in your personal view rather than delete all of the material. 74.129.230.61 02:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with a new article being created as long as such a link is offered on Lewis' page. One thing I think unfair is that the rules on the new article would not apply to the old when I spent much time trying to conform to the latter. O well. All help appreciated, I am going to go eat some rice and some chicken, 74.129.230.61 02:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
How do you defend Lewis under such objections from notable authorities? In many senses when Lewis appeals to God or scripture it is no different than one appeals to a scientist to believe a particular thing, however the psychology behind religion is very intriguing. Also a historical outlook on life, perhaps the idea that we descend from barbarians, makes it very difficult for me to entertain Lewis' views seriously. When I think of him I think of a human being striving for meaning... something that is inherent in all of us, the more powerful the search the more powerful the desire to overcome hardship or pain... its usually rare a man is granted fate's hand and becomes more devout religously on a permanent basis. This is not an attempt to debate... I actually feel like it's a couple making up after they've been in a fight...I am drawn into some of your views though you haven't proclaimed them. I am not interested in debate at all, I will even offer to keep quiet. :)
I feel like talking so I shall go further, have any of you pondered whether God can walk? Or does God see in color? It seems our ability to discern colors is not perfect, perhaps his is more perfect? Or is a god who made the laws of nature transcendent? 74.129.230.61 02:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I have started a new section as there seems to be a discrepancy over the criticism section, if you wish to erase it, you must provide reasons for how to fix it, less this is just continually a cycle where the eraser proves he simply does NOT want the information. I find it odd that so many can dispute for hours yet the second suggestions are requested so the material can remain all stop offering comment. It seems many are more interested in leaving the material out for whatever reason than leaving it in, irrecovable of policy compliance. If you wish to suggest anything, do so here, and leave comments as to how to fix it so it can remain. Biblical1
The section on Freud is not appropriate, because he died before Lewis published his apologetics books. Using Freud's theories to rebuff Lewis' is your argument, not Freud's. Lewis wasn't even a Christian when Freud wrote the work quoted in the article. Freud said nothing about Lewis, so you cannot say "Freud believed that Lewis' disposition to argue against moral relativity...." or "he maintained that Lewis did not care for objective analysis".
How can you say how Freud would react to books written after his death? How do you know that he wouldn't have converted to Christianity because of them? Plenty of other people have. Granted, it seems unlikely, but that isn't good enough.
I'm not sure how many times I can say it, so here goes in bold: the only way you can add mention of Freud's theories as criticism of Lewis' is if you mention a notable authority who has used this argument in refuting Lewis.
Unless you can provide a reference for the application of Freud's theories to Lewis' work, please do not add it to the article. Martin 14:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I propose we remove the Toynbee comments for the reasons listed above, she is not qualified to have an informed opinion. Pat Mustard 16:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The order of the subjects are confusing and out of order timewise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Guolin ( talk • contribs) 00:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC).
I'm trying to find a formulation that communicates the very common understanding in modern secular academia that Jesus didn't claim to be God without overstating the case. To say that "some scholars" reach such a conclusion is to understate the case. There's all manner of off-track, minority ideas that "some scholars" conclude. Jonathan Tweet 18:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The trilemma gets a pretty good going over on another page. Let's cut the elaboration from this page and move all the arguments pro and con to the trilemma page. Jonathan Tweet 02:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I added a paragraph on the academic context for Lewis's trilemma. It was effectively an answer to the ungodly view that had recently insinuated itself into academe -- that Jesus' miracles were mere myths and that Jesus was nothing more than a wise mortal man. Lewis's conflict with Wells shows up in That Hideous Strength, where "Jules" is a clear parody of the materialist, socialist Wells. Jonathan Tweet 03:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a pejorative term to both C.S. Lewis and Christianity. I don't see why his writings on christianity should presuppose that a. he was engaging in some form of reconstruction of christan history or apologism, and b. that christanianity is indeed in merit of apologists. A title such as Christian writings, or something more eloquently put but similar in meaning and scope should suffice. 05:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.5.22.27 ( talk • contribs) 05:47, November 2, 2006
I added a summary paragraph in the biography section. This paragraph lets the reader get a read on Lewis's personal life in one bite, much better than making them work through the very detailed biography proper. I make no pretenses to have done an excellent job, and it would not surprise me if I've made errors. Jonathan Tweet 05:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
In Surprised by Joy there is a comment on the pederastic practices at his school, which he names "Wyvern" but I see here that the school he went to was actually named "Wynyard". Any thoughts on this discrepancy? Also any thoughts on including his defense of pederasty in this article? Haiduc 03:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Correction, it was at Malvern College, when talking about relations between the Bloods and the Tarts. The question about inclusion still stands. Haiduc 05:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to make a big deal of this, but it seems bad form to repeat material already addressed in the article intro, and if those major items are taken out the rest does not stand on its own. In brief, one appetizer is enough, now the main course. Haiduc 23:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
"Life" and "works." The article is already broken up into those two sections. "Biography" is Lewis's personal life, mostly. "Career" is his works. What other division would you consider? Jonathan Tweet 15:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
In September 1913 Lewis enrolled at Malvern College, where he would remain until the following June. Later he would describe its culture as a "burning desert of competitive ambition" relieved only by the "oasis" of pederastic loves between upperclassmen and the younger students, which he refused to criticise. (Lewis 1966, p. 107) After leaving Malvern he moved to study privately with William T. Kirkpatrick, his father's old tutor and former headmaster of Lurgan College.
I'm looking at this reference, and don't see how it supports saying "which he refused to criticise". What he said was that there were worse things to criticise than that. Can anyone point to another reference? or can this be removed? LloydSommerer 12:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have again reverted attempts to label Lewis specifically as "Northern Irish". Lewis's self-identification as Irish is notable, because some contributors are under the mistaken impression that, because he was a British writer who wrote in English, he was of English nationality. It is not accurate to refer to him as Northern Irish, since he was born in a united Ireland under British rule, and before the introduction of the administrative entity called "Northern Ireland" in 1920. He was not "exempted from military service" in World War I, but the United Kingdom authorities recognized him as Irish (not "Northern Irish": the term didn't exist), and so exempted from compulsory military conscription, since conscription was (for political reasons) not introduced in Ireland. I think that the fact that he was born in Belfast, and that Belfast is now in Northern Ireland, is quite clear enough in the article. Myopic Bookworm 12:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Lewis was born into a Protestant family and not a Catholic family. I think this is much more important than his nationality and should be mentioned in the introduction. As for his nationality, he did call himself Irish but he also, at times, called himself English and he told Sayer that he was "more Welsh than anything." It is quite possible to feel that you belong to more than one country, after all. I think that the fact that Lewis felt that he was both Irish and English (and Welsh) should be mentioned. KaB 17:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is silly and pointless. Lewis was born in Ireland, considered himself Irish. Although he lived in England. He is and was Irish. Northern Irish doesn't come into the argument. Codu talk contribs email 14:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I was just wondering if any of you had access to original copies of any of the chronicles of narnia books. If you could upload the images for the cover art on the respective pages it would be much appreciated. Thanks. b_cubed 03:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted the removal of the criticism section because it is entirely appropriate here. Lewis is and has been a controversial figure for both his theological works and fiction. That biographies of him do not include such material is irrelevant - this is Wikipedia. Material of this nature can sometimes date quickly, and so any printed biography which included it would likely date badly. We of course, do not have to worry about concerns of that nature here. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Martin 17:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the second removal of the criticism section. It's wikipedia policy to be abundant and redundant, especially to settle revert wars. I recommend that we create a new page with this information and merely summarize it here. I also recommend we do that with the other sections, as this page is too long. Jonathan Tweet 03:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)