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Hello all,
A number of us had been discussing the creation of a Byzantine Heraldry page for a while, so I've created a number of graphical representations of Dynastic Arms and Byzantine Flags/Banners from the armorial descriptions listed below, (and from various other sources). The depictions are in the form of a labarum/square flag rather than the more common "western" shield representations.
I am not an expert on heraldry, so I've only attempted the few blazons I was game enough to decipher. My main intention was to create a starting point from which everyone can contribute to build a comprehensive article on a subject that is, unfortunately, often overlooked. Regards, Dragases ( talk) 13:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/per/vlasto.byzantium.html
Rietstap's Armorial
[1]
Angelos gules, 4 lozenges Or with an angel on each. (Greece) Argyros Or, a cross between 4 stars azure. Barbaro Argent, an annulet gules. Cantacuzene Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece) Comnene Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Sable on a sword per pale Argent, the hilt Or. (Corsica, Savoy) Comneno Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a double-headed eagle displayed Sable, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent; on its breast an oval escutcheon, Argent 3 bells (?) Azure. (Milan) Comnenos (emperors of Trebizonde): Argent, three bars Sable. (Greece) Ducas Azure, a cross Argent. (Greece) Koressio (dukes): Sable, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Or, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent. (Greece) Lascaris Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, beaked Gules, beneath an eastern crown Or. (Greece) Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona, Dalmatia) Lascaris quartered Azure and Argent, on which an double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked, crowned Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona). Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Provence) Lascaris quartered Gules a chief Or; and Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. Lascaris-Castellar: Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked Gules. (Italy) Melissinos Gules, an escutcheon or, 3 bells sable, between six bees 1, 2, 2, 1 of the second. Melisurgo Azure, on a mound in base three daisies argent, below four bees per fess or, in dexter chief a sun issuant of the last. Micrulaches Gules, three lions passant or. Palaelogus Gules, a Cross and four B's Or. (Greece) Paleologue Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Piedmont) Phocas Gules, four lozenges conjoined in pale gules. Phouskarnaki Azure, the figure of the Blessed Virgin bearing the Divine Child argent. Phrangopoulos Sable, a fleur-de-lys or. Rhadino Argent, the sun in splendor or. Rhangabe Azure, a cross flory between the letters "e", "n", "t", "n" argent. Rhaoules Azure, a leopard rampant or. Rhodocanakis Gules, a two-headed eagle or, on its breast an escutcheon Azure, a cross argent between ?. Vatatzes Vert, a double-headed eagle displayed Or, above each head an estoile Argent. (Greece) Vlasto Gules, three plates 2 and 1. Vlattera Gules, 4 bends or.
As pointed out the article lacks reliable references. The following references are listed in In Byzantium & The Vlasto Family. Can anyone confirm their existence and their contents?
Sv1xv ( talk) 12:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
There was a nice picture collection of these arms on this section, can anyone tell me why in the name of God were these images deleted and replaced by one petty paragraph and just two pictures??? This was a great collection! What happened to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.19.201.184 ( talk) 00:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Only from the 12th century onwards, when the Empire came in increased contact with Westerners because of the Crusades, did heraldry begin to be used among Byzantines.
Well, this phrase is somewhat inaccurate and misleading. Systematic heraldry did not exist before the 12th century even in the West. SV1XV ( talk) 06:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
If one had to depict the middle Byzantine state with a symbol, say around the reign of Basileios II of the Macedonian dynasty (10th century), what symbol should he/she use? Also, what would be the best symbol to depict the Empire during Komnenian rule? I'm hoping to get to the bottom of this so it can be applied to other articles. Thank you -- Director ( talk) 16:09, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
A common depiction of a Byzantine flag appears to be a two-headed eagle, black on gold (esp for the Komnenoi). The modern versions are, I assume, based on the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church. It wasn't an imperial flag, I got that, but I wonder if a two-headed eagle, black on gold, has any historical basis whatsoever (from the period of the Byzantine Empire)? Is there any evidence at all of contemporary usage of such an emblem in this period, in any capacity? -- Director ( talk) 11:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Like the title of the subsection says: is it more accurate to display the gold Palaeologan eagle on a red background, or is the gold eagle itself the emblem? The background of the double-headed eagle is an integral part of the symbol of the HRE emperors (black on gold) - is the red background also integral to the Palaeologan symbol or does it just happen to be the colour of the background of the surface where the golden eagle was emblazoned? -- Director ( talk) 05:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I can understand your affinity towards historical accuracy, but this is not an or-or issue. Wikipedia almost always uses stylized SVG images rather than actual photographs of historical coats of arms, and finding such here is the thing the reader will expect. We should provide for him/her a usable, modern-day rendition of these symbols alongside the real historical images they are based on. In effect all I'm saying is we should include the SVG image of the double-headed eagle, which is already in use elsewhere anyway. Provide ot to the reader as a resource. Clearly outlining that its a modern-day rendition. Even were it entirely inaccurate we should include it if its in general use, and its not. While I greately admire the informative nature of this article, there is such a thing as being too purist and OWNy :). -- Director ( talk) 07:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Ok, we definitely need an accurate SVG image. I posted a request on Commons [2]. Would appreciate your seconding the motion, and adding pointers and/or more accurate primary images for the team. -- Director ( talk) 17:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I hate to go against established consensus, but the bird depicted on the authentic Palaiologos flag, not the svg wikipedia ones, is not an eagle, but a goose!
Maybe the goose represents the famous Roman geese? Am I the only one seeing this? 67.206.183.45 ( talk) 22:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Byzantine flags and insignia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello all,
A number of us had been discussing the creation of a Byzantine Heraldry page for a while, so I've created a number of graphical representations of Dynastic Arms and Byzantine Flags/Banners from the armorial descriptions listed below, (and from various other sources). The depictions are in the form of a labarum/square flag rather than the more common "western" shield representations.
I am not an expert on heraldry, so I've only attempted the few blazons I was game enough to decipher. My main intention was to create a starting point from which everyone can contribute to build a comprehensive article on a subject that is, unfortunately, often overlooked. Regards, Dragases ( talk) 13:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/per/vlasto.byzantium.html
Rietstap's Armorial
[1]
Angelos gules, 4 lozenges Or with an angel on each. (Greece) Argyros Or, a cross between 4 stars azure. Barbaro Argent, an annulet gules. Cantacuzene Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece) Comnene Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Sable on a sword per pale Argent, the hilt Or. (Corsica, Savoy) Comneno Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a double-headed eagle displayed Sable, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent; on its breast an oval escutcheon, Argent 3 bells (?) Azure. (Milan) Comnenos (emperors of Trebizonde): Argent, three bars Sable. (Greece) Ducas Azure, a cross Argent. (Greece) Koressio (dukes): Sable, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Or, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent. (Greece) Lascaris Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, beaked Gules, beneath an eastern crown Or. (Greece) Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona, Dalmatia) Lascaris quartered Azure and Argent, on which an double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked, crowned Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona). Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Provence) Lascaris quartered Gules a chief Or; and Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. Lascaris-Castellar: Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked Gules. (Italy) Melissinos Gules, an escutcheon or, 3 bells sable, between six bees 1, 2, 2, 1 of the second. Melisurgo Azure, on a mound in base three daisies argent, below four bees per fess or, in dexter chief a sun issuant of the last. Micrulaches Gules, three lions passant or. Palaelogus Gules, a Cross and four B's Or. (Greece) Paleologue Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Piedmont) Phocas Gules, four lozenges conjoined in pale gules. Phouskarnaki Azure, the figure of the Blessed Virgin bearing the Divine Child argent. Phrangopoulos Sable, a fleur-de-lys or. Rhadino Argent, the sun in splendor or. Rhangabe Azure, a cross flory between the letters "e", "n", "t", "n" argent. Rhaoules Azure, a leopard rampant or. Rhodocanakis Gules, a two-headed eagle or, on its breast an escutcheon Azure, a cross argent between ?. Vatatzes Vert, a double-headed eagle displayed Or, above each head an estoile Argent. (Greece) Vlasto Gules, three plates 2 and 1. Vlattera Gules, 4 bends or.
As pointed out the article lacks reliable references. The following references are listed in In Byzantium & The Vlasto Family. Can anyone confirm their existence and their contents?
Sv1xv ( talk) 12:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
There was a nice picture collection of these arms on this section, can anyone tell me why in the name of God were these images deleted and replaced by one petty paragraph and just two pictures??? This was a great collection! What happened to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.19.201.184 ( talk) 00:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
Only from the 12th century onwards, when the Empire came in increased contact with Westerners because of the Crusades, did heraldry begin to be used among Byzantines.
Well, this phrase is somewhat inaccurate and misleading. Systematic heraldry did not exist before the 12th century even in the West. SV1XV ( talk) 06:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
If one had to depict the middle Byzantine state with a symbol, say around the reign of Basileios II of the Macedonian dynasty (10th century), what symbol should he/she use? Also, what would be the best symbol to depict the Empire during Komnenian rule? I'm hoping to get to the bottom of this so it can be applied to other articles. Thank you -- Director ( talk) 16:09, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
A common depiction of a Byzantine flag appears to be a two-headed eagle, black on gold (esp for the Komnenoi). The modern versions are, I assume, based on the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church. It wasn't an imperial flag, I got that, but I wonder if a two-headed eagle, black on gold, has any historical basis whatsoever (from the period of the Byzantine Empire)? Is there any evidence at all of contemporary usage of such an emblem in this period, in any capacity? -- Director ( talk) 11:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Like the title of the subsection says: is it more accurate to display the gold Palaeologan eagle on a red background, or is the gold eagle itself the emblem? The background of the double-headed eagle is an integral part of the symbol of the HRE emperors (black on gold) - is the red background also integral to the Palaeologan symbol or does it just happen to be the colour of the background of the surface where the golden eagle was emblazoned? -- Director ( talk) 05:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I can understand your affinity towards historical accuracy, but this is not an or-or issue. Wikipedia almost always uses stylized SVG images rather than actual photographs of historical coats of arms, and finding such here is the thing the reader will expect. We should provide for him/her a usable, modern-day rendition of these symbols alongside the real historical images they are based on. In effect all I'm saying is we should include the SVG image of the double-headed eagle, which is already in use elsewhere anyway. Provide ot to the reader as a resource. Clearly outlining that its a modern-day rendition. Even were it entirely inaccurate we should include it if its in general use, and its not. While I greately admire the informative nature of this article, there is such a thing as being too purist and OWNy :). -- Director ( talk) 07:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Ok, we definitely need an accurate SVG image. I posted a request on Commons [2]. Would appreciate your seconding the motion, and adding pointers and/or more accurate primary images for the team. -- Director ( talk) 17:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I hate to go against established consensus, but the bird depicted on the authentic Palaiologos flag, not the svg wikipedia ones, is not an eagle, but a goose!
Maybe the goose represents the famous Roman geese? Am I the only one seeing this? 67.206.183.45 ( talk) 22:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)