![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
"The original Dune novel states that the Jihad ended in human victory at the Battle of Corrin. The leader of the Jihad then renamed his royal house "House Corrino", and declared himself Emperor of the Known Universe. The Emperors of the Empire of a Million Worlds were all of House Corrino for the next 10,000 years, until the events of Dune and the ascension of Paul Atreides."
There are two false statements in this sentence: neither was the winner of the Corrin-battle Sheuset ecevit the leader of Butlers Djihad nor were all emperors in the following 10000 years of Corrino descendance. There would also be Harkonnen Emperors and those did not rank among the least of the Padischahs! At a certain time who became new emperor would be decided by the Sardaukar who showed the tendency to install their favourite members of the court on the throne. The first padischah sheuset I. himself had nothing to do with Butlers Djihad as is deoicted here. In FH´s original timeline which was explained in detail in the dune encyclopedia Sheuset was a powerful local leader who united the warrior tribes of the Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus under his command. When Salusa was "discovered" by one of the great houses (this was already after Butlers Djihad) they recognised the deadly fighting prowess of the Sardaukar and intended to use them as mercenaries. But the Sardaukar (noew equipped with spaceships) conquerec and destroyed their "discoverers" and afterwards started a conquest of the whole known universe. The great houses felt they were in danger and united their forces to defeat sheusets sardaukar but failed because sardaukar proved to be invincible in close combat. The final battle of the Conquest was the battle of Corrin. After the battle Sheuset was declared to be emperor.He set the ruling laws for the next 10000 years, most notably the great convention and faufeluchs-the imperial caste system. The Battle of corrin was not a battle of Butlers Djihad! It took place long after. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.178.248.112 ( talk • contribs) 09:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
In buttlerial Jihad the 1st memtat is actually trained by Erasmus, the excentric machine mind for fun. The mentats of course tell different story later, but I do not think there is any discontinuation, because the mentats did not want to know about their TRUE origins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.100.124.219 ( talk • contribs) 11:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I clipped off the statement that connected the Bene Tleilax to mentats, since the Mentats were (became) their own school - just like the Swordmasters of Ginaz. As far as how the Jihad changed the Tleilaxu - it allowed them to start fresh after being decimated by scandal. A conversation by Erasmus and his captive Tleilax Master (for lack of a better term) touched on replacing flowmetal with a biological equivalent - maybe a hint at Facedancers? DrSad 21:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
When did the BJ happen? (In Dune time reckoning, of course--BG or AG).
Which as a regrettable result of conflicting with recent lucrative prequels means it's permanently out of canon and will forevermore stay out of print! That said -- it does paint an interesting, and largely unrelated picture of an alternate Butlerian Jihad. Is there any reason that rapidly-fading alternative should not be at least noted somewhere here? Pseudo Intellectual
I just recieved a near-perfect condition copy of the Dune Encyclopedia for my birthday. Joy! I didn't realize how rare it is until I started reading about it! I will cherish it always. And, I must say, I drastically prefer the events described in the encyclodia to the events that are currently accepted as "Canon". A philosophical "enslavement" to machines and a genuine jihad, rather than literally being slaves to machines. The whole computers are evil and will kill us thing is so old and overdone now, reading the Dune Encyclopedia's interpretation was a breath of fresh air. This version of the events should at least be discussed, in my opinion, even if it isn't canon. (Although, personally, it will always be "canon" to me...) PiccoloNamek 09:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the link to the new Butlerian Jihad (disambiguation) page and instead put the Dune Encyclopedia reference within the article itself. This seems to be the convention among Dune articles with such references, and it does seem the most intuitive way to go. I think the real purpose of a disambig page is as a gateway to a term/name used in several unrelated topics; an alternate Dune reference doesn't seem to count. But I'll certainly leave the disambig page alone in case it is useful to someone. TAnthony 17:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Probably the original meaning of "Butlerian" was actually a reference to the anti-machine chapters in Samuel Butler's classic book Erewhon... AnonMoos 05:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The Landsraad, by OLD Canon, predates the post-Jihad religious riots by 2,000 years. Please see my comment here. -- SandChigger 05:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Difference between Frank and Brian/Kevin Jihads. I have reverted my edits which claim that FH and B&K's jihads are different. I believe whoever deleted them think that FH was so vague about it that B&K's interpretation 'fall under' his description and thus do not contradict him. This is where I disagree - FH does not give many facts (and I do not rely on the Dune Encyclopedia for them) but that there are several hints to what he meant. These are: Characters speak of machines as perversions and something that can 'trap' you into a sense of complacancy - not as a danger to your life and liberty. It is called a jihad, not a revolt or anything else - jihad denotes something religious, connotations which a Terminator-like war in space does not evoke. 'Thou shalt not disfigure the soul' is the single commandment the OC bible creators first came up with, 'thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind' fits into this i believe (another reason for believing the revolt was religious in nature).
I collected some quotes from FH's novels below, the word robot or cyborg hardly ever appears in the books - and nowhere is there any hint of men being literal slaves to machines not nor that the war took place with machines on one side and humans on the other. I am not claiming that the 'defenders' against the jihad did not use machines or even autonomous robots against the revolters - that is a possibility for sure. I am claiming that the jihad started for religious and philosophical reasons and was fueled by bigotry and hatred toward machines, probably fear that mankind was becoming unnecessary.
These are the reasons I reverted my edits - B&K have a much simpler and IMHO less interesting backstory than Herbert and they are not compatible. It is not the job of wikipedia to support B&K's claim that they are the literary heirs to FH, nor that they write what he would have written - they should be treated with the same respect as any fan-fic author until such time as they show the notes they claim to have.
(So the Jihad is started because of this 'image of the mind', not because of what that image then did).
Lundse 13:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I Agree. I'm currently in the process of rereading the original series and I agree that the article should contain some mention of the differences between FH and B&K's jihads. Though he left the nature of the jihad vague, it seemed to be more a cultural and spiritual revolt rather than a war against machine overlords. Also, given the general nature of the Dune series and their focus on humanity, the notion that the Butlerian Jihad was a revolt against machine powers doesn't really fit. Several of the primary themes throughout the Dune series focus on human nature, so it would only be logical to assume that Frank Herbert's vision of a cultural and mental revolution does not fit with B&K's idea of a Terminator-like war. -- User: LetoAtreides 11:24 EST, 30 January 2006
This may be a stupid question, but I'm a bit new to WP. Why is it that it's okay to post comments about the disputed canon-status of the encyclopedia but not the prequel version of the jihad? The only reference to evidence for this dispute apears to be a link to another WP page? Am I missing something in how this works?( ATOE ( talk) 03:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC))
The thing is, there is no formal discussion of this issue that I am aware of, and anecdotal fan grumblings just don't count. — TAnthony Talk 21:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This article strikes me as biased. The fact is, the Butlerian Jihad as presented in Frank Herbert's novels is not consistent with the Jihad as presented in the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. Some of those differences are explained above. Further, the Jihad as it was outlined in the Dune Encyclopedia is also inconsistent with the Jihad from the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels.
Brian and Kevin's current " Dune Universe" may officially be canonical, since it is produced by the current copyright holders, but it conflicts with earlier continuity. Although the Encyclopedia is no longer considered canonical, there was a time when it was. The "Dune Universe," as such, has not been static but has been changing with time.
I propose that either this article be split into three sections, arranged chronologically:
or that alternately, there be three articles, one for each of the versions. That was my intent in establishing the disambiguation page.
Macduff 17:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course it's very possible that FH's own views on the BJ changed, which could account for the seeming inconsistencies. I personally find it incredible that a simple crusade of ideology could result in the large-scale social changes we see in the Dune books that apparently endured for 10,000 years. I think one way people are influenced is that BH and KJA didn't do anything very original with the "machines enslave mankind" theme; it's very possible that Frank Herbert could have come up with something a lot more original and better-written. My own hypothesis is that if you collect all the references to the BJ found in the House trilogy books, you will end up with essentially the notes on the BJ that FH left behind -- very simplistic, but probably because he hadn't developed them through writing. Personally I really like the way a number of the Dune articles are done now (this article and Daniel and Marty are good examples) -- first the information in the FH books is presented, then the BH/KJA books, then the Dune Encyclopedia. Speculation about intent, notes, or contradictions is kept to a minimum, and issues of canon are left to other places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.45.200 ( talk) 19:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The article ought to explain the real reason that Herbert called it the BUTLERIAN Jihad -- namely, that he borrowed the idea from Samuel Butler's Victorian-era sci-fi novel EREWHON, and wanted to acknowledge the source. CharlesTheBold ( talk) 02:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out there Sandchigger. I was actually looking at an article about the real Barbarossa and made a mental slip. Thanks for the heads up and BTW, I do have my info quite right and simply made a mental slip so slow your roll and bring the chin down a bit eyh. MephYazata ( talk) 02:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I've participated in a few discussions here and on other talk pages about whether or not FH envisioned the Jihad as a Terminator-like war against killer robots. In my opinion, the evidence within the books of the original series suggests that it was just a religious rejection of AI, which in my mind obviously contradicted the primary plotline of the Legends of Dune trilogy, and by extension the Dune 7 sequels. Dune nerd that I am, I've been listening to the original series audiobooks on the elliptical at the gym. Imagine my shock when I heard this quote from GEoD, when Siona shares Leto's vision of the future:
He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder! Everywhere she searched, it would be the same. No escape anywhere.
To me, this meant that, no matter how passive the Jihad may have been, the extinction of mankind that Leto was trying to prevent was indeed at the hands of predator robots! Unbelievable! And I checked: Touponce agrees on page 85 of Frank Herbert. I've added this info (with the Touponce ref) to the Thinking machines (Dune) article. Not to say that Hunters and Sandworms were executed how Frank himself may have wrote them, this certainly makes me look at them in a slightly different light.— TAnthony Talk 05:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
'"Do not fear the Ixians," he said, and he heard his own voice as a fading whisper. "They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."
Again, Idaho sensed the temptation from the ritual of Siaynoq. "We will see," he said. He turned and looked at Siona. "What did he mean when he said the Ixians cannot create arafel?"'
Huh? The purpose of Siona's trial is to sensitize her to the necessity of the Golden Path. The "spice fluid" she drinks from Leto's cowl-teat is enough to kick on them ole Atreides voodoo genes (LOL), but insufficient to provoke a full "Agony" experience and awaken her Other Memory ("no ancestral presences would remain"). So what exactly is it she sees?
My own interpretation requires you to remember the passage where Leto imagines throwing himself off the top of his Sareer tower and he senses the Golden Path "winking" in and out of existence. Even though there's no textual support for it in the Siona trial passage, I like to think that Leto is doing something similar for the duration of her vision; by imagining a universe where the GP does not exist, he opens the possibility of an inescapable future where humankind is extinguished by Ixian super-hunter-seekers (or some other run-amok machine), and it's that future that Siona and Moneo (and all the Atreides before them) see.
Another possibility is that Leto is feeding Siona the vision telepathically, but there's no explicit textual support for that, either.
Either way, it seems really grasping for straws to try to connect the "arafel" vision with the Butlerian Jihad. And since Leto explicitly says the Ixians can no longer create arafel, the nonsense in Hunters and Sandworms is based on a severe misunderstanding (or complete disregard?) of what Frank Herbert wrote. Anderson and Herbert Minor simply don't get it. -- SandChigger ( talk) 02:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Forgive the lateness of the reply/comment, but using a vision of the future as an explanation of the past doesn't make any sense, unless one wishes to try to justify what Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson have done to the Dune franchise. Whatever the reality of the vision of arafel, it has no bearing on the Butlerian Jihad, the nature of which is, by the way, made much clearer in the original novels than some would care to admit.-- 172.190.16.197 ( talk) 08:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Frank Herbert named the Butlerian Jihad after Frank Butler, at the time a university student in California who led some sort of protest, and with whom Herbert had some contact, and who recently retired as an attorney in Stanwood, Washington. The Daily (Everett, WA) Herald ran a story on this in its December 3, 2000 edition. I have seen and briefly skimmed the article (Frank Butler was my attorney, and keeps a copy of the newspaper article on the wall in the practice's law library) but I do not have a copy of it.
Here is contact information for the Herald if someone is interested in running this down:
http://www.heraldnet.com/section/contact
All best wishes,
Jeffrey Dennis Pearce Stanwood, WA 24.113.135.163 ( talk) 05:50, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
To see the article, go to my blog: http://where-we-start-from.blogspot.com/2014/05/source-of-butlerian-jihad-in-dune.html
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... because the Lord of the Rings is just chock full of robots and computers. Jyg ( talk) 04:23, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
"The original Dune novel states that the Jihad ended in human victory at the Battle of Corrin. The leader of the Jihad then renamed his royal house "House Corrino", and declared himself Emperor of the Known Universe. The Emperors of the Empire of a Million Worlds were all of House Corrino for the next 10,000 years, until the events of Dune and the ascension of Paul Atreides."
There are two false statements in this sentence: neither was the winner of the Corrin-battle Sheuset ecevit the leader of Butlers Djihad nor were all emperors in the following 10000 years of Corrino descendance. There would also be Harkonnen Emperors and those did not rank among the least of the Padischahs! At a certain time who became new emperor would be decided by the Sardaukar who showed the tendency to install their favourite members of the court on the throne. The first padischah sheuset I. himself had nothing to do with Butlers Djihad as is deoicted here. In FH´s original timeline which was explained in detail in the dune encyclopedia Sheuset was a powerful local leader who united the warrior tribes of the Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus under his command. When Salusa was "discovered" by one of the great houses (this was already after Butlers Djihad) they recognised the deadly fighting prowess of the Sardaukar and intended to use them as mercenaries. But the Sardaukar (noew equipped with spaceships) conquerec and destroyed their "discoverers" and afterwards started a conquest of the whole known universe. The great houses felt they were in danger and united their forces to defeat sheusets sardaukar but failed because sardaukar proved to be invincible in close combat. The final battle of the Conquest was the battle of Corrin. After the battle Sheuset was declared to be emperor.He set the ruling laws for the next 10000 years, most notably the great convention and faufeluchs-the imperial caste system. The Battle of corrin was not a battle of Butlers Djihad! It took place long after. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.178.248.112 ( talk • contribs) 09:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
In buttlerial Jihad the 1st memtat is actually trained by Erasmus, the excentric machine mind for fun. The mentats of course tell different story later, but I do not think there is any discontinuation, because the mentats did not want to know about their TRUE origins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.100.124.219 ( talk • contribs) 11:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I clipped off the statement that connected the Bene Tleilax to mentats, since the Mentats were (became) their own school - just like the Swordmasters of Ginaz. As far as how the Jihad changed the Tleilaxu - it allowed them to start fresh after being decimated by scandal. A conversation by Erasmus and his captive Tleilax Master (for lack of a better term) touched on replacing flowmetal with a biological equivalent - maybe a hint at Facedancers? DrSad 21:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
When did the BJ happen? (In Dune time reckoning, of course--BG or AG).
Which as a regrettable result of conflicting with recent lucrative prequels means it's permanently out of canon and will forevermore stay out of print! That said -- it does paint an interesting, and largely unrelated picture of an alternate Butlerian Jihad. Is there any reason that rapidly-fading alternative should not be at least noted somewhere here? Pseudo Intellectual
I just recieved a near-perfect condition copy of the Dune Encyclopedia for my birthday. Joy! I didn't realize how rare it is until I started reading about it! I will cherish it always. And, I must say, I drastically prefer the events described in the encyclodia to the events that are currently accepted as "Canon". A philosophical "enslavement" to machines and a genuine jihad, rather than literally being slaves to machines. The whole computers are evil and will kill us thing is so old and overdone now, reading the Dune Encyclopedia's interpretation was a breath of fresh air. This version of the events should at least be discussed, in my opinion, even if it isn't canon. (Although, personally, it will always be "canon" to me...) PiccoloNamek 09:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the link to the new Butlerian Jihad (disambiguation) page and instead put the Dune Encyclopedia reference within the article itself. This seems to be the convention among Dune articles with such references, and it does seem the most intuitive way to go. I think the real purpose of a disambig page is as a gateway to a term/name used in several unrelated topics; an alternate Dune reference doesn't seem to count. But I'll certainly leave the disambig page alone in case it is useful to someone. TAnthony 17:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Probably the original meaning of "Butlerian" was actually a reference to the anti-machine chapters in Samuel Butler's classic book Erewhon... AnonMoos 05:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The Landsraad, by OLD Canon, predates the post-Jihad religious riots by 2,000 years. Please see my comment here. -- SandChigger 05:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Difference between Frank and Brian/Kevin Jihads. I have reverted my edits which claim that FH and B&K's jihads are different. I believe whoever deleted them think that FH was so vague about it that B&K's interpretation 'fall under' his description and thus do not contradict him. This is where I disagree - FH does not give many facts (and I do not rely on the Dune Encyclopedia for them) but that there are several hints to what he meant. These are: Characters speak of machines as perversions and something that can 'trap' you into a sense of complacancy - not as a danger to your life and liberty. It is called a jihad, not a revolt or anything else - jihad denotes something religious, connotations which a Terminator-like war in space does not evoke. 'Thou shalt not disfigure the soul' is the single commandment the OC bible creators first came up with, 'thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind' fits into this i believe (another reason for believing the revolt was religious in nature).
I collected some quotes from FH's novels below, the word robot or cyborg hardly ever appears in the books - and nowhere is there any hint of men being literal slaves to machines not nor that the war took place with machines on one side and humans on the other. I am not claiming that the 'defenders' against the jihad did not use machines or even autonomous robots against the revolters - that is a possibility for sure. I am claiming that the jihad started for religious and philosophical reasons and was fueled by bigotry and hatred toward machines, probably fear that mankind was becoming unnecessary.
These are the reasons I reverted my edits - B&K have a much simpler and IMHO less interesting backstory than Herbert and they are not compatible. It is not the job of wikipedia to support B&K's claim that they are the literary heirs to FH, nor that they write what he would have written - they should be treated with the same respect as any fan-fic author until such time as they show the notes they claim to have.
(So the Jihad is started because of this 'image of the mind', not because of what that image then did).
Lundse 13:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I Agree. I'm currently in the process of rereading the original series and I agree that the article should contain some mention of the differences between FH and B&K's jihads. Though he left the nature of the jihad vague, it seemed to be more a cultural and spiritual revolt rather than a war against machine overlords. Also, given the general nature of the Dune series and their focus on humanity, the notion that the Butlerian Jihad was a revolt against machine powers doesn't really fit. Several of the primary themes throughout the Dune series focus on human nature, so it would only be logical to assume that Frank Herbert's vision of a cultural and mental revolution does not fit with B&K's idea of a Terminator-like war. -- User: LetoAtreides 11:24 EST, 30 January 2006
This may be a stupid question, but I'm a bit new to WP. Why is it that it's okay to post comments about the disputed canon-status of the encyclopedia but not the prequel version of the jihad? The only reference to evidence for this dispute apears to be a link to another WP page? Am I missing something in how this works?( ATOE ( talk) 03:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC))
The thing is, there is no formal discussion of this issue that I am aware of, and anecdotal fan grumblings just don't count. — TAnthony Talk 21:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
This article strikes me as biased. The fact is, the Butlerian Jihad as presented in Frank Herbert's novels is not consistent with the Jihad as presented in the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. Some of those differences are explained above. Further, the Jihad as it was outlined in the Dune Encyclopedia is also inconsistent with the Jihad from the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels.
Brian and Kevin's current " Dune Universe" may officially be canonical, since it is produced by the current copyright holders, but it conflicts with earlier continuity. Although the Encyclopedia is no longer considered canonical, there was a time when it was. The "Dune Universe," as such, has not been static but has been changing with time.
I propose that either this article be split into three sections, arranged chronologically:
or that alternately, there be three articles, one for each of the versions. That was my intent in establishing the disambiguation page.
Macduff 17:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course it's very possible that FH's own views on the BJ changed, which could account for the seeming inconsistencies. I personally find it incredible that a simple crusade of ideology could result in the large-scale social changes we see in the Dune books that apparently endured for 10,000 years. I think one way people are influenced is that BH and KJA didn't do anything very original with the "machines enslave mankind" theme; it's very possible that Frank Herbert could have come up with something a lot more original and better-written. My own hypothesis is that if you collect all the references to the BJ found in the House trilogy books, you will end up with essentially the notes on the BJ that FH left behind -- very simplistic, but probably because he hadn't developed them through writing. Personally I really like the way a number of the Dune articles are done now (this article and Daniel and Marty are good examples) -- first the information in the FH books is presented, then the BH/KJA books, then the Dune Encyclopedia. Speculation about intent, notes, or contradictions is kept to a minimum, and issues of canon are left to other places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.45.200 ( talk) 19:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The article ought to explain the real reason that Herbert called it the BUTLERIAN Jihad -- namely, that he borrowed the idea from Samuel Butler's Victorian-era sci-fi novel EREWHON, and wanted to acknowledge the source. CharlesTheBold ( talk) 02:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out there Sandchigger. I was actually looking at an article about the real Barbarossa and made a mental slip. Thanks for the heads up and BTW, I do have my info quite right and simply made a mental slip so slow your roll and bring the chin down a bit eyh. MephYazata ( talk) 02:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I've participated in a few discussions here and on other talk pages about whether or not FH envisioned the Jihad as a Terminator-like war against killer robots. In my opinion, the evidence within the books of the original series suggests that it was just a religious rejection of AI, which in my mind obviously contradicted the primary plotline of the Legends of Dune trilogy, and by extension the Dune 7 sequels. Dune nerd that I am, I've been listening to the original series audiobooks on the elliptical at the gym. Imagine my shock when I heard this quote from GEoD, when Siona shares Leto's vision of the future:
He knew this experience, but could not change the smallest part of it. No ancestral presences would remain in her consciousness, but she would carry with her forever afterward the clear sights and sounds and smells. The seeking machines would be there, the smell of blood and entrails, the cowering humans in their burrows aware only that they could not escape . . . while all the time the mechanical movement approached, nearer and nearer and nearer ...louder...louder! Everywhere she searched, it would be the same. No escape anywhere.
To me, this meant that, no matter how passive the Jihad may have been, the extinction of mankind that Leto was trying to prevent was indeed at the hands of predator robots! Unbelievable! And I checked: Touponce agrees on page 85 of Frank Herbert. I've added this info (with the Touponce ref) to the Thinking machines (Dune) article. Not to say that Hunters and Sandworms were executed how Frank himself may have wrote them, this certainly makes me look at them in a slightly different light.— TAnthony Talk 05:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
'"Do not fear the Ixians," he said, and he heard his own voice as a fading whisper. "They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."
Again, Idaho sensed the temptation from the ritual of Siaynoq. "We will see," he said. He turned and looked at Siona. "What did he mean when he said the Ixians cannot create arafel?"'
Huh? The purpose of Siona's trial is to sensitize her to the necessity of the Golden Path. The "spice fluid" she drinks from Leto's cowl-teat is enough to kick on them ole Atreides voodoo genes (LOL), but insufficient to provoke a full "Agony" experience and awaken her Other Memory ("no ancestral presences would remain"). So what exactly is it she sees?
My own interpretation requires you to remember the passage where Leto imagines throwing himself off the top of his Sareer tower and he senses the Golden Path "winking" in and out of existence. Even though there's no textual support for it in the Siona trial passage, I like to think that Leto is doing something similar for the duration of her vision; by imagining a universe where the GP does not exist, he opens the possibility of an inescapable future where humankind is extinguished by Ixian super-hunter-seekers (or some other run-amok machine), and it's that future that Siona and Moneo (and all the Atreides before them) see.
Another possibility is that Leto is feeding Siona the vision telepathically, but there's no explicit textual support for that, either.
Either way, it seems really grasping for straws to try to connect the "arafel" vision with the Butlerian Jihad. And since Leto explicitly says the Ixians can no longer create arafel, the nonsense in Hunters and Sandworms is based on a severe misunderstanding (or complete disregard?) of what Frank Herbert wrote. Anderson and Herbert Minor simply don't get it. -- SandChigger ( talk) 02:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Forgive the lateness of the reply/comment, but using a vision of the future as an explanation of the past doesn't make any sense, unless one wishes to try to justify what Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson have done to the Dune franchise. Whatever the reality of the vision of arafel, it has no bearing on the Butlerian Jihad, the nature of which is, by the way, made much clearer in the original novels than some would care to admit.-- 172.190.16.197 ( talk) 08:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Frank Herbert named the Butlerian Jihad after Frank Butler, at the time a university student in California who led some sort of protest, and with whom Herbert had some contact, and who recently retired as an attorney in Stanwood, Washington. The Daily (Everett, WA) Herald ran a story on this in its December 3, 2000 edition. I have seen and briefly skimmed the article (Frank Butler was my attorney, and keeps a copy of the newspaper article on the wall in the practice's law library) but I do not have a copy of it.
Here is contact information for the Herald if someone is interested in running this down:
http://www.heraldnet.com/section/contact
All best wishes,
Jeffrey Dennis Pearce Stanwood, WA 24.113.135.163 ( talk) 05:50, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
To see the article, go to my blog: http://where-we-start-from.blogspot.com/2014/05/source-of-butlerian-jihad-in-dune.html
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... because the Lord of the Rings is just chock full of robots and computers. Jyg ( talk) 04:23, 23 January 2018 (UTC)