This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article contains a translation of Burzenland from de.wikipedia. Translated on January 22, 2007. |
The result of the debate was Move.
Shouldn't this article be named Burzenland? Aside from Romanian tourist sites and Wiki-mirrors, I have not seen "Ţara Bârsei" used in English, while "Burzenland" is the traditional term used in English history books referencing the Transylvanian Saxons and the Teutonic Knights. Olessi 18:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
From WP:UE: "if one version gets 92 hits, while another one gets 194 hits, it can hardly be decisive." The vast majority of links in a regular Google search for "Ţara Bârsei" are in Romanian (which are irrelevent for the English WP) or are tourism/travel sites, which are commercial and not of encyclopedic value. A standard Google search for "Burzenland" is not particularly illuminating, either. Google Web is not a good resource in this case, as the region is quite frankly not frequently referenced in English.
Again from our naming conventions: "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works." In terms of article naming, we are not interested in how a region is named in Romanian, but in English. The Google Books sampling gave me very few English hits for "Ţara Bârsei" or Tara Barsei". In comparison, there are more English texts concerning Burzenland or "Burzen Land".
Interestingly enough, what has not been listed yet is usage of the older (I believe) spelling in Romanian, "Ţara Bîrsei" or "Tara Birsei". While the former has not been used in English, there have been a few English publications from the last several decades utilizing the latter. While it does not indicate that the Romanian name has become the standard English name for the region, it does show that the Romanian terminology is accepted in English publications along with the traditional German name. In this case it seems that Google Books' catalog has presumably not caught up to most texts using the newer spelling.
Considering the usage of the Romanian name in some English texts and the contemporary identification of the region, I would not object to a title move if consensus is achieved with other editors. However, considering the importance of the Saxon community to the region's history and the equal usage in English texts, I would expect that "Burzenland" would be bolded and not relegated to merely being an alternative name. The same would go for Nösnerland, especially since both articles are currently about the historical background and not about the present-day regions. A similar situation is Klaipėda Region, an article using a present-day title but overwhelmingly about its historical importance. Olessi 19:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I certainly didn't individually check all of the Google results either. However, grouping searches into 100-result pages and skimming the synopses can be done quickly when there are only two pages of hits to glance over. Tourism sites can of course provide valuable information, but sometimes they need to be taken with a grain of salt. When in doubt, I would trust a textbook over a commercial site. Cheers, Olessi 22:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the link towards the town of Vulcan because Vulcan, Romania is an article about a municipality in the Jiu Valley in the West of Transylvania in the Hunedoara County. Burzenland (or Tara Barsei) is an area mainly in the Braşov County in the East of Transylvania, and here Vulcan is only a village. Here are the two links on eah County's council about the two localities:
-- Mihai - talk 07:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Isnt this named after the Burgundians? It sure seems like one of those common variations of placenames that derive their names from the Burgundians. ( Bornholm, Burgenland, Bourgogne) -- Hrödberäht 04:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Is "Ţara Bârsei" used in a contemporary meaning today? Would a resident from the region say that s/he is from "Ţara Bârsei", or would "Braşov County" be used instead? Is the term used for tourism at all, or is it only used in a historical sense? That would help clarify whether or not the name has "lost cultural meaning" (a phrase originally taken from the German WP article). Olessi 15:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I should stress that of course that these names (e.g. "Ţara Bârsei", "Ţara Nǎsǎudului") still have a meaning today especially when speaking about folk music and costumes (and folk culture in general). In Romania, unlike in other European countries, these folklore related things are still quite popular (probably because of the large rural Romanian population). It is likely that most of the people from a large city (Braşov for example) will identify himself with the urban culture of Braşov, but there are still people from the rural areas nearby that idetify themselves with the folk culture of Bârsa. I had colleagues during university saying they are from "Zona Nǎsǎudului" ("Nǎsǎud Area") or "Zona Bârsei" ("Bârsa Area"), but I haven't met anyone saying he/she is from "Nösnerland" or "Burzenland". So I guess the question to Olessi's question is YES, there are still plenty of residents saying that they are from these ethno-cultural regions. Probably less than 50 years ago, before the big Romanian urbanisation, but still.
Also, I'm not at all an expert in the history of Alsace-Lorraine, but it seems that even in that case (a historical German teritorial entity that does not exist anymore) the main article uses the French name and the German name Elsaß-Lothringen redirects to the French one. So, in our case, I can't see a reason for keeping German names for present-day Romanian regions inhabited predominantly by Romanians. Alexrap 13:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I fully agree with the usage of "Alsace-Lorraine" as the proper title for that territory. However, as part of Western and/or Central Europe, Alsace and Lorraine have been referenced in English texts quite frequently and are the accepted English names for the two territories. Even though the dual administrative region was part of Germany, it is known in English by the French name, Alsace-Lorraine (instead of Elsass-Lothringen). Additionally, Alsace and Lorraine are still known today for their regional and cultural particularities. In comparison, Ţara Bârsei / Burzenland is not widely-known in English, as Transylvania is unfortunately not referenced often in detail in English. When it has been mentioned in English texts, it is usually referring to the Transylvanian Saxons or to the T.O., and the Germanic "Burzenland" is used. The aforementioned Google Books searches indicate that some authors are beginning to use Ţara Bârsei (or variations thereof) in English, but the local name is not overwhelmingly used like Alsace-Lorraine is. Regarding the article's title, we are not interested in what is "proper", but in how it is most commonly known in English.
I agree completely with Daizus that the article should be expanded. In its current state, the article is not about a currrent ethnographic zone, but is only describing the history of a historical region. If the article is expanded to describe how the region is a contemporay cultural/ethnographic zone, then a title change would certainly be understandable. Unfortunately, I do not speak Romanian, so it is more difficult for me to add information about the region as it is today. Olessi 14:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
From WP:NC(CN): "Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship. The articles themselves reflect recent scholarship but the titles should represent common usage." While Alsace and Lorraine are frequently mentioned in English texts, Ţara Bârsei / Burzenland has not been. When it is mentioned, it is usually in connection with medieval German colonization. In the majority of these sources, the Germanic "Burzenland" is used. Our naming conventions state "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works". The article in its current state is merely a history article, and as such should use the name most often used to describe the region in history texts. As I have mentioned before, I would have no objections to a title move if the article is expanded to describe the region today. Olessi 19:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I think there's a little confusion. The fortification supposedly built or strenghtened (because the archaeology dates it earlier than Teutonic Order period) by Teutons are the actual ruins of Braşovia, on the top of Tâmpa (Czenk, Zinne) hill. I don't know the name in the Medieval documents, I think the first documentary attestation for it is in 14-15th centuries. I also know this fortification was demolished by John Hunyad and it is said he used its stone to build in the actual Braşov. Daizus 22:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
From Urban's text: "By 1220 the Teutonic Knights had built five castles, some in stone, and given them names that were later passed on to castles in Prussia. Marienburg, Schwarzenburg, Rosenau, and Kreuzburg were grouped around Kronstadt at a distance of twenty miles from one another" (p. 34). Urban's focus regarding the Teutonic Order is on its internal organization and campaigns against the Balts, so it is possible he generalized info about the Order's brief time in Transylvania. While the author does not directly state that the Order built/rebuilt a fort at Braşov, this was the inference to me.
"This wild region was never fully settled by the Hungarians, who were themselves descendants of nomads and therefore preferred the plain, and it was but sparsely populated by the descendants of the Roman settlers of Dacia. ... Almost immediately a contingent of knights, accompanied by peasant volunteers from Germany, entered the unsettled region and built a series of wood-and-earth forts; the peasants then established their farms and villages, providing the taxes and labour necessary to support these military outposts. ... The peasants soon began to harvest reasonably abundant crops, making it easy to attract yet more immigrant farmers from Germany" (p. 33). Urban does not say that the Teutonic Knights were the first to bring German colonists to the region or that there were not any indigenous people, merely that it was not highly populated when they arrived (especially in comparison to Western Europe).
Regarding Kreuzburg (Crucpurg), its exact location is unknown, although some reports place it near Teliu. [1] Olessi 04:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the detailed response. Rather than trying to discern the "truth" by ourselves, it is best to simply list the views by published authors, thereby allowing the reader to come to his/her own conclusions. In this manner, I would write something like, "Older texts report that the region was not widely populated when the crusaders arrived,¹ although more recent archaeological research indicates there was already substantial settlement by the time the crusaders arrived.² ³
Regarding Kronstadt, I have no problem with removing it from the list since there is doubt about it and Urban is not specific. FYI, "Teutons" in English primarily refers today to the ancient Germanic tribe; the usage of "Teutons" to refer to the crusaders is increasingly archaic. They are usually referred to in English specifically as the "Teutonic Knights/Order", the knights, or simply as Germans. Olessi 17:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the cinque castra fortia document name the five castles? Olessi 17:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
When we say "Most of these Germans were expelled by the Communist Romanian regime beginning in 1976," is "expelled" the right word? From what I understand, West Germany was paying the Romanian government to allow Germans to leave Romania for West Germany. - Jmabel | Talk 19:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
A page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category (unless the child category is non-diffusing - see below). For example, the article "Paris" need only be placed in "Category:Cities in France", not in both "Category:Cities in France" and "Category:Populated places in France". Since the first category is in the second category, readers are already given the information that Paris is a populated place in France by it being a city in France. ( WP:SUBCAT)
Category:Historical regions of Transylvania is a subcat. of Category:Historical regions in the Kingdom of Hungary, there is no need to include the parent cat. 79.117.176.151 ( talk) 20:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Burzenland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:19, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Burzenland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Per consensus. ( non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping ( talk) 22:16, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Burzenland → Țara Bârsei – Google Scholar gives 96 results for "Burzenland" in recent (since 2019) English-language sources [2]. "Țara Bârsei" gives 183 [3]. Thus, it is the WP:COMMONNAME for this article. Super Ψ Dro 22:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article contains a translation of Burzenland from de.wikipedia. Translated on January 22, 2007. |
The result of the debate was Move.
Shouldn't this article be named Burzenland? Aside from Romanian tourist sites and Wiki-mirrors, I have not seen "Ţara Bârsei" used in English, while "Burzenland" is the traditional term used in English history books referencing the Transylvanian Saxons and the Teutonic Knights. Olessi 18:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
From WP:UE: "if one version gets 92 hits, while another one gets 194 hits, it can hardly be decisive." The vast majority of links in a regular Google search for "Ţara Bârsei" are in Romanian (which are irrelevent for the English WP) or are tourism/travel sites, which are commercial and not of encyclopedic value. A standard Google search for "Burzenland" is not particularly illuminating, either. Google Web is not a good resource in this case, as the region is quite frankly not frequently referenced in English.
Again from our naming conventions: "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works." In terms of article naming, we are not interested in how a region is named in Romanian, but in English. The Google Books sampling gave me very few English hits for "Ţara Bârsei" or Tara Barsei". In comparison, there are more English texts concerning Burzenland or "Burzen Land".
Interestingly enough, what has not been listed yet is usage of the older (I believe) spelling in Romanian, "Ţara Bîrsei" or "Tara Birsei". While the former has not been used in English, there have been a few English publications from the last several decades utilizing the latter. While it does not indicate that the Romanian name has become the standard English name for the region, it does show that the Romanian terminology is accepted in English publications along with the traditional German name. In this case it seems that Google Books' catalog has presumably not caught up to most texts using the newer spelling.
Considering the usage of the Romanian name in some English texts and the contemporary identification of the region, I would not object to a title move if consensus is achieved with other editors. However, considering the importance of the Saxon community to the region's history and the equal usage in English texts, I would expect that "Burzenland" would be bolded and not relegated to merely being an alternative name. The same would go for Nösnerland, especially since both articles are currently about the historical background and not about the present-day regions. A similar situation is Klaipėda Region, an article using a present-day title but overwhelmingly about its historical importance. Olessi 19:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I certainly didn't individually check all of the Google results either. However, grouping searches into 100-result pages and skimming the synopses can be done quickly when there are only two pages of hits to glance over. Tourism sites can of course provide valuable information, but sometimes they need to be taken with a grain of salt. When in doubt, I would trust a textbook over a commercial site. Cheers, Olessi 22:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the link towards the town of Vulcan because Vulcan, Romania is an article about a municipality in the Jiu Valley in the West of Transylvania in the Hunedoara County. Burzenland (or Tara Barsei) is an area mainly in the Braşov County in the East of Transylvania, and here Vulcan is only a village. Here are the two links on eah County's council about the two localities:
-- Mihai - talk 07:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Isnt this named after the Burgundians? It sure seems like one of those common variations of placenames that derive their names from the Burgundians. ( Bornholm, Burgenland, Bourgogne) -- Hrödberäht 04:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Is "Ţara Bârsei" used in a contemporary meaning today? Would a resident from the region say that s/he is from "Ţara Bârsei", or would "Braşov County" be used instead? Is the term used for tourism at all, or is it only used in a historical sense? That would help clarify whether or not the name has "lost cultural meaning" (a phrase originally taken from the German WP article). Olessi 15:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I should stress that of course that these names (e.g. "Ţara Bârsei", "Ţara Nǎsǎudului") still have a meaning today especially when speaking about folk music and costumes (and folk culture in general). In Romania, unlike in other European countries, these folklore related things are still quite popular (probably because of the large rural Romanian population). It is likely that most of the people from a large city (Braşov for example) will identify himself with the urban culture of Braşov, but there are still people from the rural areas nearby that idetify themselves with the folk culture of Bârsa. I had colleagues during university saying they are from "Zona Nǎsǎudului" ("Nǎsǎud Area") or "Zona Bârsei" ("Bârsa Area"), but I haven't met anyone saying he/she is from "Nösnerland" or "Burzenland". So I guess the question to Olessi's question is YES, there are still plenty of residents saying that they are from these ethno-cultural regions. Probably less than 50 years ago, before the big Romanian urbanisation, but still.
Also, I'm not at all an expert in the history of Alsace-Lorraine, but it seems that even in that case (a historical German teritorial entity that does not exist anymore) the main article uses the French name and the German name Elsaß-Lothringen redirects to the French one. So, in our case, I can't see a reason for keeping German names for present-day Romanian regions inhabited predominantly by Romanians. Alexrap 13:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I fully agree with the usage of "Alsace-Lorraine" as the proper title for that territory. However, as part of Western and/or Central Europe, Alsace and Lorraine have been referenced in English texts quite frequently and are the accepted English names for the two territories. Even though the dual administrative region was part of Germany, it is known in English by the French name, Alsace-Lorraine (instead of Elsass-Lothringen). Additionally, Alsace and Lorraine are still known today for their regional and cultural particularities. In comparison, Ţara Bârsei / Burzenland is not widely-known in English, as Transylvania is unfortunately not referenced often in detail in English. When it has been mentioned in English texts, it is usually referring to the Transylvanian Saxons or to the T.O., and the Germanic "Burzenland" is used. The aforementioned Google Books searches indicate that some authors are beginning to use Ţara Bârsei (or variations thereof) in English, but the local name is not overwhelmingly used like Alsace-Lorraine is. Regarding the article's title, we are not interested in what is "proper", but in how it is most commonly known in English.
I agree completely with Daizus that the article should be expanded. In its current state, the article is not about a currrent ethnographic zone, but is only describing the history of a historical region. If the article is expanded to describe how the region is a contemporay cultural/ethnographic zone, then a title change would certainly be understandable. Unfortunately, I do not speak Romanian, so it is more difficult for me to add information about the region as it is today. Olessi 14:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
From WP:NC(CN): "Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship. The articles themselves reflect recent scholarship but the titles should represent common usage." While Alsace and Lorraine are frequently mentioned in English texts, Ţara Bârsei / Burzenland has not been. When it is mentioned, it is usually in connection with medieval German colonization. In the majority of these sources, the Germanic "Burzenland" is used. Our naming conventions state "use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works". The article in its current state is merely a history article, and as such should use the name most often used to describe the region in history texts. As I have mentioned before, I would have no objections to a title move if the article is expanded to describe the region today. Olessi 19:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I think there's a little confusion. The fortification supposedly built or strenghtened (because the archaeology dates it earlier than Teutonic Order period) by Teutons are the actual ruins of Braşovia, on the top of Tâmpa (Czenk, Zinne) hill. I don't know the name in the Medieval documents, I think the first documentary attestation for it is in 14-15th centuries. I also know this fortification was demolished by John Hunyad and it is said he used its stone to build in the actual Braşov. Daizus 22:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
From Urban's text: "By 1220 the Teutonic Knights had built five castles, some in stone, and given them names that were later passed on to castles in Prussia. Marienburg, Schwarzenburg, Rosenau, and Kreuzburg were grouped around Kronstadt at a distance of twenty miles from one another" (p. 34). Urban's focus regarding the Teutonic Order is on its internal organization and campaigns against the Balts, so it is possible he generalized info about the Order's brief time in Transylvania. While the author does not directly state that the Order built/rebuilt a fort at Braşov, this was the inference to me.
"This wild region was never fully settled by the Hungarians, who were themselves descendants of nomads and therefore preferred the plain, and it was but sparsely populated by the descendants of the Roman settlers of Dacia. ... Almost immediately a contingent of knights, accompanied by peasant volunteers from Germany, entered the unsettled region and built a series of wood-and-earth forts; the peasants then established their farms and villages, providing the taxes and labour necessary to support these military outposts. ... The peasants soon began to harvest reasonably abundant crops, making it easy to attract yet more immigrant farmers from Germany" (p. 33). Urban does not say that the Teutonic Knights were the first to bring German colonists to the region or that there were not any indigenous people, merely that it was not highly populated when they arrived (especially in comparison to Western Europe).
Regarding Kreuzburg (Crucpurg), its exact location is unknown, although some reports place it near Teliu. [1] Olessi 04:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the detailed response. Rather than trying to discern the "truth" by ourselves, it is best to simply list the views by published authors, thereby allowing the reader to come to his/her own conclusions. In this manner, I would write something like, "Older texts report that the region was not widely populated when the crusaders arrived,¹ although more recent archaeological research indicates there was already substantial settlement by the time the crusaders arrived.² ³
Regarding Kronstadt, I have no problem with removing it from the list since there is doubt about it and Urban is not specific. FYI, "Teutons" in English primarily refers today to the ancient Germanic tribe; the usage of "Teutons" to refer to the crusaders is increasingly archaic. They are usually referred to in English specifically as the "Teutonic Knights/Order", the knights, or simply as Germans. Olessi 17:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the cinque castra fortia document name the five castles? Olessi 17:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
When we say "Most of these Germans were expelled by the Communist Romanian regime beginning in 1976," is "expelled" the right word? From what I understand, West Germany was paying the Romanian government to allow Germans to leave Romania for West Germany. - Jmabel | Talk 19:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
A page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category (unless the child category is non-diffusing - see below). For example, the article "Paris" need only be placed in "Category:Cities in France", not in both "Category:Cities in France" and "Category:Populated places in France". Since the first category is in the second category, readers are already given the information that Paris is a populated place in France by it being a city in France. ( WP:SUBCAT)
Category:Historical regions of Transylvania is a subcat. of Category:Historical regions in the Kingdom of Hungary, there is no need to include the parent cat. 79.117.176.151 ( talk) 20:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Burzenland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:19, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Burzenland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:35, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Per consensus. ( non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping ( talk) 22:16, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Burzenland → Țara Bârsei – Google Scholar gives 96 results for "Burzenland" in recent (since 2019) English-language sources [2]. "Țara Bârsei" gives 183 [3]. Thus, it is the WP:COMMONNAME for this article. Super Ψ Dro 22:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)