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There should be something limiting editing of this page. Many people have been vandalizing it so if it could be brought down to a few honest people who will only put in necessary edits, that would be good.
It should be called Burma. The US and UK Governments do not recognise the change of name made by the unelected military junta. Even the BBC does not use the word "Myanmar". [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by NOKRAPP ( talk • contribs) 01:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It's time to call Burma "Burma," and to rename Wikipedia's article accordingly. "Burma" is an English rendering of a name Burmese use for their own country. No one calls it colonialism when we refuse, in English-language documents, to call Germany "Deutschland," or to call Ireland "Eire." If there is any issue of colonialism in this discussion (and I don't see one), it's that those outsiders who comply with the whim of the country's rapacious oligarchy by assenting to their renaming of Burma as "Myanmar" by fiat are complicit in a gross form of colonialism by native elite. If Qaddafi decided to rename Libya "Earth Paradise One," must the world comply? Yes, "Myanmar" has a legitimate use by Burmese themselves, but the question is not what should Burmese call their own country. That is their business. The question is: what is the English word for this country? The answer is "Burma." English people do not object to French people who choose to call England "Angleterre." Americans do not object when Bulgarians call America "Sasht." What the people of other countries choose to call them is their business. Congress could not decree that the Bulgarians must refer to the United States as the United States, and the "State Peace and Development Council" cannot decree what English speakers must call Burma. (What would the "State Peace and Development Council" think if we decreed that its new name is "The Gathering of Pigs at the Trough"?) "Burma/Myanmar" is NOT "neutral point of view," because it legitimizes an arbitrary interference in the English language. Besides its clumsiness, it makes no more sense that a decree from London that the French must call England "Angleterre/England," as a compromise to insisting that the French call England "England." —Preceding unsigned comment added by LapisQuem ( talk • contribs) 14:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Since 1989 the military authorities in Burma have promoted the name Myanmar as a conventional name for their state; this decision was not approved by any sitting legislature in Burma! Therefore we should change the name from Myanmar to Burma! This is the correct name of the country. The change will reflect a neutral POV as opposed to Myanmar which infers a recognition of the military rule in Burma.
al source of information, not a bastion of pro-democratic ideology. And you yourself said something about how many locals refer to Burma as Myanmar in English, which is correct. Expatriate Burmese are more likely to use the same terms recognised by pro-democracy movement (e.g. Burma, Rangoon, Pegu). -- Hintha 03:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wiki should stand on the neutral ground by using Burma/Myanmar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darz kkg ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
This is an interesting conversation and it would be interesting if there were an entry on naming and colonialism. I will start off by stating that I believe "unbiased" is a myth. And people that I have met from the 'land of pagodas' have used "Burma". Their reason was that the junta, the men with the guns, changed the name and not the overwhelmingly popularly elected government. It is true that Burma was the name given by the British colonialists. The junta uses this for the reason for the name change. The thing that always bothered me about the junta's reasoning was that I had always seen colonialism as the exploitation of a land's people and resources, which is exactly what so many trans-national corporations had been doing with the junta. Too me it seemed Orwellian (in a strange twist of fate, George Orwell also happened to be stationed in Burma as a colonial ----fill in blank---- before coming to hate imperialism). Many corporations have in the last decade and a half ceased operations in the country often stating that business cannot be done there without directly benefitting the junta and the human rights abuses done by the regime, including forced slave labor. It is of course, understood all that pay attention to such things, that the reason is a business one by the corporations. Consumer boycotts and bad P.R. are bad for the bottom line. It is thus less profitable to do business in the country than to continue exploiting the people, land, and/or the general "business climate" that authorities influence. It had seemed that the junta was colonizing its own population with the corporations, which have been a historic tool of imperialism/colonialism.
If one moves their mouse over links to the various languages, some list a variation of Myanmar and some Burma, with local pronunciations no doubt, since some spoken languages do not have certain sounds. Perhaps what is the dominant usage leads? They all seem to have something like "also known as the other name". It seems like this might be the best bet. Yet it shows wikipedia's bias: to dominant power structures, but not necessarily popular. Good or bad? Just noting and important for readers to recognize the bias and perhaps for wikipedia to acknowledge this to its readers? I am not merely saying the ruling junta, but dominant power structures in general. The United Nations, the United States which has been the most dominant power structure there, corporations which are the most dominant power structure in the US (and perhaps globally), and states in general which along with corporations are the two most dominant power structures in the world today. I am not advocating for a popular vote on the name of the article on Burma/Myanmar, as this too would have biases towards those with access to a computer with internet. Here again, towards those with power; i.e. those who can use their resources on such instead of survival/food/shelter/etc.
The argument the junta uses for Myanmar is compelling and with the ability to redistribute power/respect to those who have historically been abused as less than human with colonization. Since colonization cannot happen without the dehumanization of and labelling of 'the other'. Self identity, you respect us for who we are and what we call ourselves, our land, ways we see the world, etc can/could go a long way towards decolonization. I believe Edward Said has written on this type of topic. I've never read any Said, only read about whay he has written.
Personally I believe we should use the terminology that people living in an area call things. Like Thailand instead of Siam or Côte d'Ivoire instead of Ivory Coast. But how do we adjust when names in another language are in such popular usage? For example English speakers use Japan rather than Nihon or East Timor rather than Timor-Leste. Then again, perhaps even all these new names bow down to dominant power structures of the area? Maybe in a very rural setting someone has never even heard of the name of the dominant power structure, i.e. the country in which they live and just call "the land" where they live by some other name. Here we should not consider such people "backwards". Isn't this rather arrogant of us and kind of how colonization begins? The view that the modern day nation-state is superior to other forms of human organization is too a bias. Anyway, I still think it sad that the UN uses the name Myanmar and simply see this as bias towards the dominant power structures. Dominant in this case meaning powerful because of money and/or guns. Wikipedia too is a power structure. I'd go with Burma with a cultural/historical explanation that some also call it Myanmar because of X reasons. But since wikipedia has its biases, naming both seems like the best it can do. 68.78.215.244 00:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that given this dispute over the name, this article should be slapped with an NPOV tag until this dispute is settled. How can an article using the military regime's name for the country be from a neutral point of view? All in favor? XINOPH | TALK 00:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok so a country was named (however) So the people use the name So the people are happy with it ...and they call themselves Burmese. So then (recently) an illegal military junta steps in, removes the democratically elected government, by force. They change the name, purely for arbitrary reasons, without public approval. The Burmese people continue to call themselves Burmese. The illegal military junta renames their country Myanmar. The vast majority of nations refuse to acknowledge the new name, because of the status of the illegal government. Wikipedia claims to not want part in politics, so calls it Myanmar. In my mind's eye, that's tantamount to endorsing the junta, which is tantamount to endorsing every evil thing that happens to the people of Burma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.160.72 ( talk) 02:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The BBC has chosen to use the proper name of Burma since it is an illegal regime who has picked a fake name - if its good enough for the BBC it should be for wikicensorpedia. --
IceHunter
15:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I concur with the BBC comment. - 172.216.183.174 21:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The European Union uses Burma/Myanmar on the European Commission external relations page as well as in the names of resolutions linked on that page. From this page is appears that the EU recognizes "Union of Myanmar" as the official name, but uses Burma/Myanmar and sometimes Myanmar/Burma as reference names. With several other states including the USA recognizing the name Burma I think I can safely say that the name Burma is recognized internationally at least as much as the name Myanmar. I suppose we could find out what name the foreign ministers of each state use to come to a consensus if necessary. From a quick search on a couple of Western countries it appears to me that both names are always used to avoid confusion. I would recommend we use the name Burma/Myanmar like the European Commission does to avoid confusion.-- Burzum 23:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
"Burma's democracy movement prefers the form 'Burma' because they do not accept the legitimacy of the unelected military regime to change the official name of the country. Internationally, both names are recognised." So I can only assume that Wikipedia calling it "Myanmar" is an endorsement of legitimacy for the junta that has controlled the country for 45 years against the will of the Burmese people. -- 75.58.86.135 19:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
However, people are against the new name due to the reasons Wikipedia, and some users here, noted. Even though the real name IS Myanmar, they feel it need not have been changed officially, especially because it was the regime which changed it. I have a neutral opinion..having been born and grown up in another country. However...if I were to choose, I support changing the name to Myanmar/Burma. Sumhtun 12:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The safest course is to maintain a respectful distance and err of the side of conservativeness, nomenclaturally speaking. The name in English has been and remains Burma. The renaming by SLORC is controversial. Until such time as the people of Burma make it clear that it is they and not a repressive military junta that prefer the name to be Myanmar (and Yangon, &cet.), the present name should be conserved. I agree with the many edits here expounding this view or other views that nevertheless support the conservative argument (unsigned per LapisQuem, Xinoph, U-Mos, IceHunter, Avalon, Thehalfone & mult. anon. al.) Additionally, no matter what the people decide, the English name for now is Burma. If the people do decide on Myanmar, the English name may eventually transmute to Myanmar (or it may stay as Burma). SLORC may try to change the name by diktak. Burmese people may reject or eventually accept that. But the name in other languages cannot be decided by diktak and will be decided by usage, gradually. However, to insist on calling it Myanmar at the present time is so politically loaded it makes you wonder why there's even any debate about this (and why Myanmar prevails in the wiki article).
Brockle
14:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The US Department of State lists the country as Burma. Cmdrnmartin 15:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
IMO, the use of "Burma" as describing the post-1989 Myanmar nation is offensive. The country's official name is Myanmar. Why should certain westerners impose their will on an independent nation? The days of colonialism are over. The Burmese government which represents the Burmese people whether you like it or not, wants the country to be called Myanmar. And the argument that English speakers collectively refer to Myanmar as "Burma" is FALSE. I call Myanmar by it's proper name of Myanmar. So does CNN, NBC, The New York Times, and plenty of other English speaking media outlets. Most importantly the United Nations, which Myanmar is a member of, calls the country by its correct name of Myanmar. -- Tocino 19:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The United States does not recognize "Myanmar" as the country name in support of the PEOPLE that are in current struggle with the military over the country. In support of this movement the light is being taken away from Myanmar to focus on Burma. English-Wikepedia the United States Government does not recognize Myanmar! Burma for the people of Burma. A future that is grim awaits these people. All they want is your support. Will you give it? Gisela Gurdado San Bernardino, California
Who said that the people want their country to be called "Myanmar"?? They are against the name change. They may call the country Myanmar, but that's because it's that way in their language. They want the name to remain as "Burma", for the rest of the world to continue using the name "Burma". "Burma" is seen as the English name for their country, and there is nothing offensive about that. I myself use Burma only (even when speaking Burmese), and not Myanmar. On another note, CNN refers to Burma as "Myanmar, also known as Burma". Some countries, like USA for example, use Burma. The new name was created by the regime which should not have been in power at all. That's why I think the name of the article should be changed to Myanmar/Burma. Sumhtun 06:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
If, after having invaded Iraq, the USA decided that Iraq was now called "Georgebushland", would those who go with the military government of Burma's unilateral decision to change the name of that country also use Georgebushland? Hell, if you're going to swallow the Burmese government's line you may as well also call the treatment of protestors a legitimate and proportionate means of dealing with wholly unjustified protests.- Riedquat 23:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Human rights are closely related to economic development. So I think Burma needs stability and economic development, not revolution. So, I support the government. No government allows rebellions, including US government. If I organize a lot of people with the purpose of overthrowing the US government, I guess I will be arrested or beaten to death too.
I have created a seperate heading for this as is found the in DPRK and Iran articles given that the lack of respect for any form of human rights in Burma. A seperate section would highlight this whereas as it is currently subsumed under the "politics" section it is not immediatly obvious Cxk271 10:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
What's the deal with the capital? Editors keep switching it back and forth from Yangon to Naypyidaw. The only source I've seen other than Wikipedia that claims a change of capital is this Chinese "People's Daily". Does anyone have a cite for this from a more reliable source? L0b0t 06:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Use the junta and opposition capitals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.100.48.231 ( talk) 21:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please change the pronunciation guide to IPA, or else add a link to whatever system is used currently? As it is, the pronunciation key doesn't help.-- 345Kai 12:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe SimonBillenness seems to be misrepresenting "Fighting Peacock" as NLD "emblem". "Peacock" represent our country's flag before we were colonised by the British, hence why ABSU flag included a peacock emblem to represent our nation's struggle to gain independance from the British. Fighting Peacock on the other hand is the emblem of the "Student Front" (Kyaungthar Tat Oo) of ABSU. "Student Front" represent a wing within ABSU that includes a group of students, who sworn to sacrifice their lives for the greater cause in the name of their country. They are always at the forefront of ABSU and student lead demonstrations and they are the ones who always take the first strike from batons and galloping horses during the colonial era. It is a fact that many students have died under the flag of "Fighting Peacock" througout the history of our country. Although, "Student Front" was officially disbanded and banned along with ABSU during BSPP era, the stories of "Student Front" with their dedication, sacrifice, courage and honour has masmerized and captivated every generation of young students.
At the beginning of 1988 uprising, it was the students from High Schools, came out carrying "Fighting Peacock" flags along with their school banners when they marched through the streets of our cities. The 88 generation high school students immidiately assume the position of "Student Front" during the 1988 uprising and it was them who paid the highest price. NLD, as political party adopted the symbol of "Fighting Peacock" into their party flag after the uprising in order to honour the students of Myanmar, who were always at the forefront of the struggle for their country and those who lay down their lives in the name of "democracy" and "freedom". Fighting Peack is not just a mere representation of courage or freedom, nor is it a mere logo on the flag of a political party, it is much more than that. It a symbol that represents courage, honour and sacrifice of the "students" of Myanmar, it represent the history of our country's struggle from both foreign invasions and tyranny, it represent our forefathers and it represent the fighting spirit of the "students" of Myanmar. NLD and ASSK would not be where they are today, if it wasnt for those students waving "Fighting Peacock" flags in 1988. If you said you are for freedom and democracy, then honour those students who brought about the change, honour those students who gave up their lives so that NLD can sit and complain about how they have won 1990 election and still not in the office.
Thanks to a mixure of political correctness and pure ignorant, we all have forgotten the fallen heroes and the spirit of "Fighting Peacock". Instead of honouring them for their sacrifices, we sat by sideline and watch people like SimonBillenness exploiting "fighting peacock" to promote NLD and NCGUB. Is this the way their death should be honoured? They didnt die for NLD, they died for our country and now we are repaying their deaths by letting political parties exploit the "Fighting Peacock" symbol. It is an insult to suggest that "Fighting Peacock" represent NLD as NLD has done nothing to earn the honour and respect that goes with the symbol of "Fighting Peacock". It belongs to the students of Myanmar. It should be clarify in the description of NLD flag, otherwise, we are effectively rewriting the history of "Fighting Peacock" and dishonouring those students who gave up their lives during the struggle. Okkar 20:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I refer you to my previous comment. SimonBillenness 15:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
We appear to be at an impasse. Let's figure out a mutually acceptable compromise. I would be comfortable with you creating a new Wikipage specifically on the "fighting peacock" where you could include the full history of the symbol. Much of the information is in your post above. But leave the flag alone. SimonBillenness 02:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Please just edit the description of the flag yourself but leave the flag itself in the article. SimonBillenness 13:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If the description of the flag is inaccurate, then edit the description or add the information you provided above for better balance and context. The current description of the flag is: "The flag of the National League for Democracy includes a 'fighting peacock' that is generally regarded as a symbol of freedom." Please tell us what is inaccurate about that description. SimonBillenness 13:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I edited the description of the flag as per your suggestion. In future, if you dispute the text included with the NLD flag, edit the description and don't just delete the flag. Thank you! SimonBillenness 14:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for editing the NLD flag description, Okkar. I just edited it for spelling and grammar only. I appreciate our collaboration over this. My best wishes to you. SimonBillenness 15:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.182.181.122 ( talk) 18:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
Good Grief - these two dudes must have a lot of time on their hands. Far Canal 03:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
We are we insisting on recognizing militia rule in Burma, by havng soley Myanmar as the name? -- Hayden5650 02:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it not also be the case that describing (in the section "Government and Politics") the military junta as a socialist military dictatorship is surely a contradiction in terms? Soarhead77 16:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Although the military dictatorship may claim to be socialist, the World Social Website in it's article "Burmese military cracks down on escalating protests" ( http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/burm-s27.shtml) describes the protesters as "... students, workers, monks, and the urban and rural poor challeng[ing] the military dictatorship, demanding democratic rights and improved living standards." The article notes that people cannot afford to send their children to school or buy medicine -- both of which are free in socialist societies. The ruling military junta began decentralizing economic control in 1989. Furthermore the military junta’s slashing of fuel subsidies last month is entirely in line with IMF and World Bank’s free market policies. It is a member of ASEAN, a a free trade organization whose policies include of opening up the country to foreign investors. And various global corporations and foreign governments have financed with the military junta government to gain access to Myanmar’s natural resources and have have been criticised for profiting from the brutal dictatorship. The characterization of the military junta as "socialist" is inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rczach ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the etymology section, the written/formal form of the country's name has always been, and still is, transliterated as "Myanma". Yet, the government requests that the country's name in English be called "Myanmar". Is this correct? The native language calls it "Myanma", but the native government specifically requests that English add an "r" at the end? In my little mind, that would be like Côte d'Ivoire asking other countries to call it "Côte d'Ivoira", or some such. Is there something more to this? - BaronGrackle 12:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's something more, from the CIA site: "local long form:" Pyidaungzu Myanma Naingngandaw (translated by the US Government as Union of Myanma and by the Burmese as Union of Myanmar)". So weird. You'd think we'd be able to agree on that sort of thing. Okay... if Myanmar uses "Myanmar" as its transliteration, while the U.S. uses "Myanma", then should we note in the etymology section that the native government has always called itself "Myanmar"? It sounds like "Myanma" is just the U.S. interpretation of how it transliterates. Thoughts? - BaronGrackle 17:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Would you mind declearing your political stance or stance on Burma/Myanmar? I have just gone through a lot of your edits and you refuse the agree with the stance of several democratic nations and refugees, inclding the exiled politicians, on about every count. You contantly accuse others for being a spokeperson for NCGUB and revert their edits. You have several warnings for your misuse of reverts on your user talk page. Claiming that you are neutral is a joke. Zarkow 125.24.209.24 10:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article be at the title that reflects common usage in English? In most news articles to this day, Burma is the term used ( recent example). The article can of course also reference the name used by the military government. Icsunonove 02:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Well the BBC have given up and gone back to useing Burma boston globe burma The Press Association Burma sydney morning herald Burma wall street journal burma. Geni 12:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
This nonsense of naming English Wikipedia articles according to the latest whims of local government is not restricted to "Myanmar", although two other examples of the ridiculous extent to which this is going can be found at
Ayeyarwady River (that's the Irrawaddy, in case you were wondering), and
Yangon (Rangoon, for those who weren't sure...) If a stop is not put to this, soon English speakers won't be able to find any articles about places in the non-English-speaking world...
Hong Kong will be moved to
Xianggang,
China will be moved to
Zhongguo,
Japan to
Nihon (
Nippon would, of course, be "too English"), and
South Africa to (pick your favorite from an array of bewildering names, my guess is)
yaseNingizimu Afrika. Another form of the same "English is the problem" sentiment has long since gotten
Bombay,
Calcutta,
Benares, and
Madras moved to names nobody outside India uses (and in most cases, names nobody outside India has ever even heard of), and has filled Desi articles with the word "crore" which, while used in Indian English is regarded as an unrecognizable typo everywhere else. Imagine the uproar about POV and "biased preference for a regional variety of English" if someone went through and changed
Soft drink to
Coke or
Dragonfly to
Skeeterhawk.
71.87.23.22
16:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Doing various searches on Google News using news sources based in the major English speaking countries, one comes up with the following. This is a search that uses only one term and not the other (i.e. excludes searches that use both terms):
If no exclusions are made (i.e. include hits with both terms present), the results become:
-- Polaron | Talk 16:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I made a change about the infiltration of protestors. I don't know how to add a link to the page, but the info came from here: http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/pm/weblog.php?id=P278 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.241.85 ( talk) 12:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Burma, unofficially the Union of Myanmar..
Officially I think it's Union of Myanmar, but many like to call it Burma (even officials).
84.202.208.245 14:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I was referred to this Myanmar / Burma naming debate, and I read all the comments carefully and with great interest. I ended up, as it seems most of us are, with a slight preference in one direction, but without an overwhelming feeling one way or the other.
So I can add nothing substantial or useful to the debate, except for this: I find this discussion to be delightful, rational, kind, thoughtful, and respectful. And I want to thank everyone involved for handling the issue with sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It is a "borderline case" in the true sense of that word: there are good arguments for both sides, and it all seems somewhat balanced. Sometimes debates like this go downhill into flames, and this one has not. Everyone involved should feel proud about that.-- Jimbo Wales 05:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
"President Thabo Mbeki called respect for peaceful protests versus junta ruling Myanmar. Buddhist monks were at a riot police road block, as Myanmar crackdown drew outrage, protests and demonstrations worldwide against Myanmar violence. George Bush demanded an end to Myanmar violence, as 9 dissidents were killed." I propose to change this to "President Thabo Mbeki called for respect for peaceful protests versus the junta ruling Myanmar. Buddhist monks were at a riot police road block, as the Myanmar crackdown drew outrage, protests and demonstrations worldwide against Myanmar violence. George Bush demanded an end to Myanmar violence, as 9 dissidents were killed." I am not sure whether this is what the original writer intended in the sentence about Mbeki. Is Mbeki supposed to be calling for the protestors to respect the juntaor for the junta to respect the protestors? Edison 13:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
As far as I am aware referring to 'Myanmar' as 'Burma' is pretty much the same as people referring to Great Britain as 'England'. The name also pre-dates this Junta and is a term which is inclusive of all the ethnicities and not just the Burmese. If the governemnt of the day in Myanmar (whether democratic or not) wishes the country to be called and be known as 'Myanmar' then so be it, 'Myanmar' it is. This reminds me of a well written comment on the Cote d'Ivoire discussion page, where there is a similiar argument that Cote d'Ivoire is French for Ivory Coast and because this is English Wiki then Ivory Coast should be used even though the government of the Cote d'Ivoire wishes that this be the official name (in all languages). The comment made was along the lines of the following. Burkino Faso (formerly known as Upper Volta in the English language) is a native African name which means "Land of Upright People", now does this mean we should ignore the name Burkino Faso and start referring to the country as "Land of Upright People" ?! It seems that just because a country may have a name in another major international language that we think its fit to use an anglicised version, whereas we don't mind indigenous language names. Whether or not a place name has an alternative English name or not is irrelevant. True, people will still call 'Myanmar' Burma in 50yrs time, names and habits do stick. However it does not change the fact that the official name of Myanmar (at the moment, pending regime change) is 'Myanmar'. There has also been reference to the BBC calling 'Myanmar' Burma, So what? Since when was the BBC the authority on place names or even pronunciation? Christ, a lot of the time they are hard pushed to get a geographic location in the United Kingdom right, never mind half way around the world! I believe the BBC's official policy of naming convention (or it used to be) was that it referred to places etc as they are commonly called or known as, which as we all know does not necessarily mean it is correct (e.g referring to 'Netherlands' as 'Holland'). Another example I could use is the present state of Zimbabwe, should we disregard this 'African-ised term' (its not English word is it) and instead use Rhodesia, should we also do the same for Harare and revert to its original name Salisbury? One could go on and on, fact is place names change and evolve, just as countries are born and then disappear, just look what happened to Poland once upon a time! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.76.97.173 ( talk) 14:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
What about referring to the United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland] as 'Great Britain'? Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for repeating myself but I'll do so because I see a lot of citing of magazines' and newspapers' usage that isn't relevant.
Surveying news organizations for their usages of "Burma" or "Myanmar" is strongly suspect because most newspapers and news magazines in the US refer to the AP Stylebook for all such decisions. If the AP Stylebook says it's Myanmar, then nearly all newspapers in the US will use Myanmar. Evidence that 58,000 newspapers and news magazines use the term "Myanmar" doesn't mean that 58,000 newspapers have judged the situation and made a careful decision; it just means that a few people at the Associated Press have made a decision, and 58,000 newspapers and news magazines subsequently slaved themselves to that decision. Tempshill 21:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Our policy says to follow the most common usage in English-language sources. It doesn't say to decide whether each source's reason for their usage "counts" or not. That strikes me as a POV decision to make. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the article can't be changed by anonymous or new members. So I have to ask if the phrase explaining that the first railroads were built in the 1800s means that we have to rewrite the history of that technology? Between 1800 and 1810 there didn't exist so many railroads and until now I hadn´t heard anything about important Burmese contributions (or a simultaneous discovery). Someone should write "19th century" or preferably give a better number. 84.178.118.252 08:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Timeineurope keeps adding pronunciation variants using /æ/ (= a as in man) without providing a source. I have reverted his edits already twice, so now it's time for others to step in if he does it again.
All the dictionaries found here and here and here provide different variants that use only the sound of A in father for the two As in Myanmar, and none provide variants with the sound of A in man.
Timeineurope however insists on misinterpreting the pronunciations provided by the BBC here. These use only the symbols a/A, but Timeineurope feels free to interpret some of these as /ɑ/ (= a in father) and some as /æ/, which is an incorrect interpretation of the BBC pronunciation guide, whose symbols are explained in the link provided at the bottom of the same page.
What complicates the matter is that the BBC guide erroneously uses its own incorrect symbol a/A (as in man) instead of its own correct one aa/AA (as in father), but this is no excuse for interpreting some of these a/As as /æ/ and some as /ɑ/.
To make a long story short, there are many variant English pronunciations of Myanmar in use (both in the same and in different kinds of English) but they all only vary in where to place the stress and how to pronounce the Y. All reputable sources listed record only the pronunciation /ɑ/ as in father for both As.
In case Timeineurope again adds the following unsourced edit (which is contradicted by all the sources provided):
/ˌmjænˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˌmjɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjænˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /miˈænˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /miˌɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmiːənˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, or /ˌmaɪənˈmɑː(ɹ)/
please replace it with the following edit (which is based on the dictionaries listed above):
/ˌmjɑnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˌmɑ(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˌmaɪənˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmiːənˌmɑː(ɹ)/, or /miˈɑːnmɑː(ɹ)/
-- Espoo 18:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
How about this instead "Myanmar, pronounced /'bɝ·mʌ/..."? I like that better.
Tom
e
r
talk
17:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
There should be something limiting editing of this page. Many people have been vandalizing it so if it could be brought down to a few honest people who will only put in necessary edits, that would be good.
It should be called Burma. The US and UK Governments do not recognise the change of name made by the unelected military junta. Even the BBC does not use the word "Myanmar". [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by NOKRAPP ( talk • contribs) 01:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
It's time to call Burma "Burma," and to rename Wikipedia's article accordingly. "Burma" is an English rendering of a name Burmese use for their own country. No one calls it colonialism when we refuse, in English-language documents, to call Germany "Deutschland," or to call Ireland "Eire." If there is any issue of colonialism in this discussion (and I don't see one), it's that those outsiders who comply with the whim of the country's rapacious oligarchy by assenting to their renaming of Burma as "Myanmar" by fiat are complicit in a gross form of colonialism by native elite. If Qaddafi decided to rename Libya "Earth Paradise One," must the world comply? Yes, "Myanmar" has a legitimate use by Burmese themselves, but the question is not what should Burmese call their own country. That is their business. The question is: what is the English word for this country? The answer is "Burma." English people do not object to French people who choose to call England "Angleterre." Americans do not object when Bulgarians call America "Sasht." What the people of other countries choose to call them is their business. Congress could not decree that the Bulgarians must refer to the United States as the United States, and the "State Peace and Development Council" cannot decree what English speakers must call Burma. (What would the "State Peace and Development Council" think if we decreed that its new name is "The Gathering of Pigs at the Trough"?) "Burma/Myanmar" is NOT "neutral point of view," because it legitimizes an arbitrary interference in the English language. Besides its clumsiness, it makes no more sense that a decree from London that the French must call England "Angleterre/England," as a compromise to insisting that the French call England "England." —Preceding unsigned comment added by LapisQuem ( talk • contribs) 14:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Since 1989 the military authorities in Burma have promoted the name Myanmar as a conventional name for their state; this decision was not approved by any sitting legislature in Burma! Therefore we should change the name from Myanmar to Burma! This is the correct name of the country. The change will reflect a neutral POV as opposed to Myanmar which infers a recognition of the military rule in Burma.
al source of information, not a bastion of pro-democratic ideology. And you yourself said something about how many locals refer to Burma as Myanmar in English, which is correct. Expatriate Burmese are more likely to use the same terms recognised by pro-democracy movement (e.g. Burma, Rangoon, Pegu). -- Hintha 03:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wiki should stand on the neutral ground by using Burma/Myanmar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darz kkg ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
This is an interesting conversation and it would be interesting if there were an entry on naming and colonialism. I will start off by stating that I believe "unbiased" is a myth. And people that I have met from the 'land of pagodas' have used "Burma". Their reason was that the junta, the men with the guns, changed the name and not the overwhelmingly popularly elected government. It is true that Burma was the name given by the British colonialists. The junta uses this for the reason for the name change. The thing that always bothered me about the junta's reasoning was that I had always seen colonialism as the exploitation of a land's people and resources, which is exactly what so many trans-national corporations had been doing with the junta. Too me it seemed Orwellian (in a strange twist of fate, George Orwell also happened to be stationed in Burma as a colonial ----fill in blank---- before coming to hate imperialism). Many corporations have in the last decade and a half ceased operations in the country often stating that business cannot be done there without directly benefitting the junta and the human rights abuses done by the regime, including forced slave labor. It is of course, understood all that pay attention to such things, that the reason is a business one by the corporations. Consumer boycotts and bad P.R. are bad for the bottom line. It is thus less profitable to do business in the country than to continue exploiting the people, land, and/or the general "business climate" that authorities influence. It had seemed that the junta was colonizing its own population with the corporations, which have been a historic tool of imperialism/colonialism.
If one moves their mouse over links to the various languages, some list a variation of Myanmar and some Burma, with local pronunciations no doubt, since some spoken languages do not have certain sounds. Perhaps what is the dominant usage leads? They all seem to have something like "also known as the other name". It seems like this might be the best bet. Yet it shows wikipedia's bias: to dominant power structures, but not necessarily popular. Good or bad? Just noting and important for readers to recognize the bias and perhaps for wikipedia to acknowledge this to its readers? I am not merely saying the ruling junta, but dominant power structures in general. The United Nations, the United States which has been the most dominant power structure there, corporations which are the most dominant power structure in the US (and perhaps globally), and states in general which along with corporations are the two most dominant power structures in the world today. I am not advocating for a popular vote on the name of the article on Burma/Myanmar, as this too would have biases towards those with access to a computer with internet. Here again, towards those with power; i.e. those who can use their resources on such instead of survival/food/shelter/etc.
The argument the junta uses for Myanmar is compelling and with the ability to redistribute power/respect to those who have historically been abused as less than human with colonization. Since colonization cannot happen without the dehumanization of and labelling of 'the other'. Self identity, you respect us for who we are and what we call ourselves, our land, ways we see the world, etc can/could go a long way towards decolonization. I believe Edward Said has written on this type of topic. I've never read any Said, only read about whay he has written.
Personally I believe we should use the terminology that people living in an area call things. Like Thailand instead of Siam or Côte d'Ivoire instead of Ivory Coast. But how do we adjust when names in another language are in such popular usage? For example English speakers use Japan rather than Nihon or East Timor rather than Timor-Leste. Then again, perhaps even all these new names bow down to dominant power structures of the area? Maybe in a very rural setting someone has never even heard of the name of the dominant power structure, i.e. the country in which they live and just call "the land" where they live by some other name. Here we should not consider such people "backwards". Isn't this rather arrogant of us and kind of how colonization begins? The view that the modern day nation-state is superior to other forms of human organization is too a bias. Anyway, I still think it sad that the UN uses the name Myanmar and simply see this as bias towards the dominant power structures. Dominant in this case meaning powerful because of money and/or guns. Wikipedia too is a power structure. I'd go with Burma with a cultural/historical explanation that some also call it Myanmar because of X reasons. But since wikipedia has its biases, naming both seems like the best it can do. 68.78.215.244 00:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that given this dispute over the name, this article should be slapped with an NPOV tag until this dispute is settled. How can an article using the military regime's name for the country be from a neutral point of view? All in favor? XINOPH | TALK 00:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok so a country was named (however) So the people use the name So the people are happy with it ...and they call themselves Burmese. So then (recently) an illegal military junta steps in, removes the democratically elected government, by force. They change the name, purely for arbitrary reasons, without public approval. The Burmese people continue to call themselves Burmese. The illegal military junta renames their country Myanmar. The vast majority of nations refuse to acknowledge the new name, because of the status of the illegal government. Wikipedia claims to not want part in politics, so calls it Myanmar. In my mind's eye, that's tantamount to endorsing the junta, which is tantamount to endorsing every evil thing that happens to the people of Burma. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.160.72 ( talk) 02:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The BBC has chosen to use the proper name of Burma since it is an illegal regime who has picked a fake name - if its good enough for the BBC it should be for wikicensorpedia. --
IceHunter
15:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I concur with the BBC comment. - 172.216.183.174 21:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The European Union uses Burma/Myanmar on the European Commission external relations page as well as in the names of resolutions linked on that page. From this page is appears that the EU recognizes "Union of Myanmar" as the official name, but uses Burma/Myanmar and sometimes Myanmar/Burma as reference names. With several other states including the USA recognizing the name Burma I think I can safely say that the name Burma is recognized internationally at least as much as the name Myanmar. I suppose we could find out what name the foreign ministers of each state use to come to a consensus if necessary. From a quick search on a couple of Western countries it appears to me that both names are always used to avoid confusion. I would recommend we use the name Burma/Myanmar like the European Commission does to avoid confusion.-- Burzum 23:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
"Burma's democracy movement prefers the form 'Burma' because they do not accept the legitimacy of the unelected military regime to change the official name of the country. Internationally, both names are recognised." So I can only assume that Wikipedia calling it "Myanmar" is an endorsement of legitimacy for the junta that has controlled the country for 45 years against the will of the Burmese people. -- 75.58.86.135 19:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
However, people are against the new name due to the reasons Wikipedia, and some users here, noted. Even though the real name IS Myanmar, they feel it need not have been changed officially, especially because it was the regime which changed it. I have a neutral opinion..having been born and grown up in another country. However...if I were to choose, I support changing the name to Myanmar/Burma. Sumhtun 12:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The safest course is to maintain a respectful distance and err of the side of conservativeness, nomenclaturally speaking. The name in English has been and remains Burma. The renaming by SLORC is controversial. Until such time as the people of Burma make it clear that it is they and not a repressive military junta that prefer the name to be Myanmar (and Yangon, &cet.), the present name should be conserved. I agree with the many edits here expounding this view or other views that nevertheless support the conservative argument (unsigned per LapisQuem, Xinoph, U-Mos, IceHunter, Avalon, Thehalfone & mult. anon. al.) Additionally, no matter what the people decide, the English name for now is Burma. If the people do decide on Myanmar, the English name may eventually transmute to Myanmar (or it may stay as Burma). SLORC may try to change the name by diktak. Burmese people may reject or eventually accept that. But the name in other languages cannot be decided by diktak and will be decided by usage, gradually. However, to insist on calling it Myanmar at the present time is so politically loaded it makes you wonder why there's even any debate about this (and why Myanmar prevails in the wiki article).
Brockle
14:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The US Department of State lists the country as Burma. Cmdrnmartin 15:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
IMO, the use of "Burma" as describing the post-1989 Myanmar nation is offensive. The country's official name is Myanmar. Why should certain westerners impose their will on an independent nation? The days of colonialism are over. The Burmese government which represents the Burmese people whether you like it or not, wants the country to be called Myanmar. And the argument that English speakers collectively refer to Myanmar as "Burma" is FALSE. I call Myanmar by it's proper name of Myanmar. So does CNN, NBC, The New York Times, and plenty of other English speaking media outlets. Most importantly the United Nations, which Myanmar is a member of, calls the country by its correct name of Myanmar. -- Tocino 19:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The United States does not recognize "Myanmar" as the country name in support of the PEOPLE that are in current struggle with the military over the country. In support of this movement the light is being taken away from Myanmar to focus on Burma. English-Wikepedia the United States Government does not recognize Myanmar! Burma for the people of Burma. A future that is grim awaits these people. All they want is your support. Will you give it? Gisela Gurdado San Bernardino, California
Who said that the people want their country to be called "Myanmar"?? They are against the name change. They may call the country Myanmar, but that's because it's that way in their language. They want the name to remain as "Burma", for the rest of the world to continue using the name "Burma". "Burma" is seen as the English name for their country, and there is nothing offensive about that. I myself use Burma only (even when speaking Burmese), and not Myanmar. On another note, CNN refers to Burma as "Myanmar, also known as Burma". Some countries, like USA for example, use Burma. The new name was created by the regime which should not have been in power at all. That's why I think the name of the article should be changed to Myanmar/Burma. Sumhtun 06:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
If, after having invaded Iraq, the USA decided that Iraq was now called "Georgebushland", would those who go with the military government of Burma's unilateral decision to change the name of that country also use Georgebushland? Hell, if you're going to swallow the Burmese government's line you may as well also call the treatment of protestors a legitimate and proportionate means of dealing with wholly unjustified protests.- Riedquat 23:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Human rights are closely related to economic development. So I think Burma needs stability and economic development, not revolution. So, I support the government. No government allows rebellions, including US government. If I organize a lot of people with the purpose of overthrowing the US government, I guess I will be arrested or beaten to death too.
I have created a seperate heading for this as is found the in DPRK and Iran articles given that the lack of respect for any form of human rights in Burma. A seperate section would highlight this whereas as it is currently subsumed under the "politics" section it is not immediatly obvious Cxk271 10:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
What's the deal with the capital? Editors keep switching it back and forth from Yangon to Naypyidaw. The only source I've seen other than Wikipedia that claims a change of capital is this Chinese "People's Daily". Does anyone have a cite for this from a more reliable source? L0b0t 06:30, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Use the junta and opposition capitals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.100.48.231 ( talk) 21:39, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please change the pronunciation guide to IPA, or else add a link to whatever system is used currently? As it is, the pronunciation key doesn't help.-- 345Kai 12:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe SimonBillenness seems to be misrepresenting "Fighting Peacock" as NLD "emblem". "Peacock" represent our country's flag before we were colonised by the British, hence why ABSU flag included a peacock emblem to represent our nation's struggle to gain independance from the British. Fighting Peacock on the other hand is the emblem of the "Student Front" (Kyaungthar Tat Oo) of ABSU. "Student Front" represent a wing within ABSU that includes a group of students, who sworn to sacrifice their lives for the greater cause in the name of their country. They are always at the forefront of ABSU and student lead demonstrations and they are the ones who always take the first strike from batons and galloping horses during the colonial era. It is a fact that many students have died under the flag of "Fighting Peacock" througout the history of our country. Although, "Student Front" was officially disbanded and banned along with ABSU during BSPP era, the stories of "Student Front" with their dedication, sacrifice, courage and honour has masmerized and captivated every generation of young students.
At the beginning of 1988 uprising, it was the students from High Schools, came out carrying "Fighting Peacock" flags along with their school banners when they marched through the streets of our cities. The 88 generation high school students immidiately assume the position of "Student Front" during the 1988 uprising and it was them who paid the highest price. NLD, as political party adopted the symbol of "Fighting Peacock" into their party flag after the uprising in order to honour the students of Myanmar, who were always at the forefront of the struggle for their country and those who lay down their lives in the name of "democracy" and "freedom". Fighting Peack is not just a mere representation of courage or freedom, nor is it a mere logo on the flag of a political party, it is much more than that. It a symbol that represents courage, honour and sacrifice of the "students" of Myanmar, it represent the history of our country's struggle from both foreign invasions and tyranny, it represent our forefathers and it represent the fighting spirit of the "students" of Myanmar. NLD and ASSK would not be where they are today, if it wasnt for those students waving "Fighting Peacock" flags in 1988. If you said you are for freedom and democracy, then honour those students who brought about the change, honour those students who gave up their lives so that NLD can sit and complain about how they have won 1990 election and still not in the office.
Thanks to a mixure of political correctness and pure ignorant, we all have forgotten the fallen heroes and the spirit of "Fighting Peacock". Instead of honouring them for their sacrifices, we sat by sideline and watch people like SimonBillenness exploiting "fighting peacock" to promote NLD and NCGUB. Is this the way their death should be honoured? They didnt die for NLD, they died for our country and now we are repaying their deaths by letting political parties exploit the "Fighting Peacock" symbol. It is an insult to suggest that "Fighting Peacock" represent NLD as NLD has done nothing to earn the honour and respect that goes with the symbol of "Fighting Peacock". It belongs to the students of Myanmar. It should be clarify in the description of NLD flag, otherwise, we are effectively rewriting the history of "Fighting Peacock" and dishonouring those students who gave up their lives during the struggle. Okkar 20:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I refer you to my previous comment. SimonBillenness 15:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
We appear to be at an impasse. Let's figure out a mutually acceptable compromise. I would be comfortable with you creating a new Wikipage specifically on the "fighting peacock" where you could include the full history of the symbol. Much of the information is in your post above. But leave the flag alone. SimonBillenness 02:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Please just edit the description of the flag yourself but leave the flag itself in the article. SimonBillenness 13:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If the description of the flag is inaccurate, then edit the description or add the information you provided above for better balance and context. The current description of the flag is: "The flag of the National League for Democracy includes a 'fighting peacock' that is generally regarded as a symbol of freedom." Please tell us what is inaccurate about that description. SimonBillenness 13:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I edited the description of the flag as per your suggestion. In future, if you dispute the text included with the NLD flag, edit the description and don't just delete the flag. Thank you! SimonBillenness 14:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for editing the NLD flag description, Okkar. I just edited it for spelling and grammar only. I appreciate our collaboration over this. My best wishes to you. SimonBillenness 15:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.182.181.122 ( talk) 18:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
Good Grief - these two dudes must have a lot of time on their hands. Far Canal 03:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
We are we insisting on recognizing militia rule in Burma, by havng soley Myanmar as the name? -- Hayden5650 02:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it not also be the case that describing (in the section "Government and Politics") the military junta as a socialist military dictatorship is surely a contradiction in terms? Soarhead77 16:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Although the military dictatorship may claim to be socialist, the World Social Website in it's article "Burmese military cracks down on escalating protests" ( http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/burm-s27.shtml) describes the protesters as "... students, workers, monks, and the urban and rural poor challeng[ing] the military dictatorship, demanding democratic rights and improved living standards." The article notes that people cannot afford to send their children to school or buy medicine -- both of which are free in socialist societies. The ruling military junta began decentralizing economic control in 1989. Furthermore the military junta’s slashing of fuel subsidies last month is entirely in line with IMF and World Bank’s free market policies. It is a member of ASEAN, a a free trade organization whose policies include of opening up the country to foreign investors. And various global corporations and foreign governments have financed with the military junta government to gain access to Myanmar’s natural resources and have have been criticised for profiting from the brutal dictatorship. The characterization of the military junta as "socialist" is inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rczach ( talk • contribs) 19:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the etymology section, the written/formal form of the country's name has always been, and still is, transliterated as "Myanma". Yet, the government requests that the country's name in English be called "Myanmar". Is this correct? The native language calls it "Myanma", but the native government specifically requests that English add an "r" at the end? In my little mind, that would be like Côte d'Ivoire asking other countries to call it "Côte d'Ivoira", or some such. Is there something more to this? - BaronGrackle 12:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's something more, from the CIA site: "local long form:" Pyidaungzu Myanma Naingngandaw (translated by the US Government as Union of Myanma and by the Burmese as Union of Myanmar)". So weird. You'd think we'd be able to agree on that sort of thing. Okay... if Myanmar uses "Myanmar" as its transliteration, while the U.S. uses "Myanma", then should we note in the etymology section that the native government has always called itself "Myanmar"? It sounds like "Myanma" is just the U.S. interpretation of how it transliterates. Thoughts? - BaronGrackle 17:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Would you mind declearing your political stance or stance on Burma/Myanmar? I have just gone through a lot of your edits and you refuse the agree with the stance of several democratic nations and refugees, inclding the exiled politicians, on about every count. You contantly accuse others for being a spokeperson for NCGUB and revert their edits. You have several warnings for your misuse of reverts on your user talk page. Claiming that you are neutral is a joke. Zarkow 125.24.209.24 10:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article be at the title that reflects common usage in English? In most news articles to this day, Burma is the term used ( recent example). The article can of course also reference the name used by the military government. Icsunonove 02:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Well the BBC have given up and gone back to useing Burma boston globe burma The Press Association Burma sydney morning herald Burma wall street journal burma. Geni 12:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
This nonsense of naming English Wikipedia articles according to the latest whims of local government is not restricted to "Myanmar", although two other examples of the ridiculous extent to which this is going can be found at
Ayeyarwady River (that's the Irrawaddy, in case you were wondering), and
Yangon (Rangoon, for those who weren't sure...) If a stop is not put to this, soon English speakers won't be able to find any articles about places in the non-English-speaking world...
Hong Kong will be moved to
Xianggang,
China will be moved to
Zhongguo,
Japan to
Nihon (
Nippon would, of course, be "too English"), and
South Africa to (pick your favorite from an array of bewildering names, my guess is)
yaseNingizimu Afrika. Another form of the same "English is the problem" sentiment has long since gotten
Bombay,
Calcutta,
Benares, and
Madras moved to names nobody outside India uses (and in most cases, names nobody outside India has ever even heard of), and has filled Desi articles with the word "crore" which, while used in Indian English is regarded as an unrecognizable typo everywhere else. Imagine the uproar about POV and "biased preference for a regional variety of English" if someone went through and changed
Soft drink to
Coke or
Dragonfly to
Skeeterhawk.
71.87.23.22
16:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Doing various searches on Google News using news sources based in the major English speaking countries, one comes up with the following. This is a search that uses only one term and not the other (i.e. excludes searches that use both terms):
If no exclusions are made (i.e. include hits with both terms present), the results become:
-- Polaron | Talk 16:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I made a change about the infiltration of protestors. I don't know how to add a link to the page, but the info came from here: http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/pm/weblog.php?id=P278 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.241.85 ( talk) 12:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Burma, unofficially the Union of Myanmar..
Officially I think it's Union of Myanmar, but many like to call it Burma (even officials).
84.202.208.245 14:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I was referred to this Myanmar / Burma naming debate, and I read all the comments carefully and with great interest. I ended up, as it seems most of us are, with a slight preference in one direction, but without an overwhelming feeling one way or the other.
So I can add nothing substantial or useful to the debate, except for this: I find this discussion to be delightful, rational, kind, thoughtful, and respectful. And I want to thank everyone involved for handling the issue with sensitivity and thoughtfulness. It is a "borderline case" in the true sense of that word: there are good arguments for both sides, and it all seems somewhat balanced. Sometimes debates like this go downhill into flames, and this one has not. Everyone involved should feel proud about that.-- Jimbo Wales 05:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
"President Thabo Mbeki called respect for peaceful protests versus junta ruling Myanmar. Buddhist monks were at a riot police road block, as Myanmar crackdown drew outrage, protests and demonstrations worldwide against Myanmar violence. George Bush demanded an end to Myanmar violence, as 9 dissidents were killed." I propose to change this to "President Thabo Mbeki called for respect for peaceful protests versus the junta ruling Myanmar. Buddhist monks were at a riot police road block, as the Myanmar crackdown drew outrage, protests and demonstrations worldwide against Myanmar violence. George Bush demanded an end to Myanmar violence, as 9 dissidents were killed." I am not sure whether this is what the original writer intended in the sentence about Mbeki. Is Mbeki supposed to be calling for the protestors to respect the juntaor for the junta to respect the protestors? Edison 13:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
As far as I am aware referring to 'Myanmar' as 'Burma' is pretty much the same as people referring to Great Britain as 'England'. The name also pre-dates this Junta and is a term which is inclusive of all the ethnicities and not just the Burmese. If the governemnt of the day in Myanmar (whether democratic or not) wishes the country to be called and be known as 'Myanmar' then so be it, 'Myanmar' it is. This reminds me of a well written comment on the Cote d'Ivoire discussion page, where there is a similiar argument that Cote d'Ivoire is French for Ivory Coast and because this is English Wiki then Ivory Coast should be used even though the government of the Cote d'Ivoire wishes that this be the official name (in all languages). The comment made was along the lines of the following. Burkino Faso (formerly known as Upper Volta in the English language) is a native African name which means "Land of Upright People", now does this mean we should ignore the name Burkino Faso and start referring to the country as "Land of Upright People" ?! It seems that just because a country may have a name in another major international language that we think its fit to use an anglicised version, whereas we don't mind indigenous language names. Whether or not a place name has an alternative English name or not is irrelevant. True, people will still call 'Myanmar' Burma in 50yrs time, names and habits do stick. However it does not change the fact that the official name of Myanmar (at the moment, pending regime change) is 'Myanmar'. There has also been reference to the BBC calling 'Myanmar' Burma, So what? Since when was the BBC the authority on place names or even pronunciation? Christ, a lot of the time they are hard pushed to get a geographic location in the United Kingdom right, never mind half way around the world! I believe the BBC's official policy of naming convention (or it used to be) was that it referred to places etc as they are commonly called or known as, which as we all know does not necessarily mean it is correct (e.g referring to 'Netherlands' as 'Holland'). Another example I could use is the present state of Zimbabwe, should we disregard this 'African-ised term' (its not English word is it) and instead use Rhodesia, should we also do the same for Harare and revert to its original name Salisbury? One could go on and on, fact is place names change and evolve, just as countries are born and then disappear, just look what happened to Poland once upon a time! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.76.97.173 ( talk) 14:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
What about referring to the United Kingdom [of Great Britain and Northern Ireland] as 'Great Britain'? Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for repeating myself but I'll do so because I see a lot of citing of magazines' and newspapers' usage that isn't relevant.
Surveying news organizations for their usages of "Burma" or "Myanmar" is strongly suspect because most newspapers and news magazines in the US refer to the AP Stylebook for all such decisions. If the AP Stylebook says it's Myanmar, then nearly all newspapers in the US will use Myanmar. Evidence that 58,000 newspapers and news magazines use the term "Myanmar" doesn't mean that 58,000 newspapers have judged the situation and made a careful decision; it just means that a few people at the Associated Press have made a decision, and 58,000 newspapers and news magazines subsequently slaved themselves to that decision. Tempshill 21:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Our policy says to follow the most common usage in English-language sources. It doesn't say to decide whether each source's reason for their usage "counts" or not. That strikes me as a POV decision to make. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately the article can't be changed by anonymous or new members. So I have to ask if the phrase explaining that the first railroads were built in the 1800s means that we have to rewrite the history of that technology? Between 1800 and 1810 there didn't exist so many railroads and until now I hadn´t heard anything about important Burmese contributions (or a simultaneous discovery). Someone should write "19th century" or preferably give a better number. 84.178.118.252 08:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Timeineurope keeps adding pronunciation variants using /æ/ (= a as in man) without providing a source. I have reverted his edits already twice, so now it's time for others to step in if he does it again.
All the dictionaries found here and here and here provide different variants that use only the sound of A in father for the two As in Myanmar, and none provide variants with the sound of A in man.
Timeineurope however insists on misinterpreting the pronunciations provided by the BBC here. These use only the symbols a/A, but Timeineurope feels free to interpret some of these as /ɑ/ (= a in father) and some as /æ/, which is an incorrect interpretation of the BBC pronunciation guide, whose symbols are explained in the link provided at the bottom of the same page.
What complicates the matter is that the BBC guide erroneously uses its own incorrect symbol a/A (as in man) instead of its own correct one aa/AA (as in father), but this is no excuse for interpreting some of these a/As as /æ/ and some as /ɑ/.
To make a long story short, there are many variant English pronunciations of Myanmar in use (both in the same and in different kinds of English) but they all only vary in where to place the stress and how to pronounce the Y. All reputable sources listed record only the pronunciation /ɑ/ as in father for both As.
In case Timeineurope again adds the following unsourced edit (which is contradicted by all the sources provided):
/ˌmjænˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˌmjɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjænˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /miˈænˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /miˌɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmiːənˌmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, or /ˌmaɪənˈmɑː(ɹ)/
please replace it with the following edit (which is based on the dictionaries listed above):
/ˌmjɑnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˌmɑ(ɹ)/, /ˈmjɑːnˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˌmaɪənˈmɑː(ɹ)/, /ˈmiːənˌmɑː(ɹ)/, or /miˈɑːnmɑː(ɹ)/
-- Espoo 18:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
How about this instead "Myanmar, pronounced /'bɝ·mʌ/..."? I like that better.
Tom
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17:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)