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There is absolutly no evidence to support the Slavehaven claims. The citations used are amateurish and based on recent folkore. They would not be accepted by any History department for a term paper. The claims are "lies" used by wishful dreamers to obtain government grants. If you have any good evidence then cite it! A similar effort was made by the owner of the Hunt Phelan home. Fortunately, the Wall Street Journal smelled a rat and sent an investigator who exposed these fraudulent claims for what the are. Every legitimate local historian refutes these claims. Even Arthur Prince, an African American Memphis historian had shown how absurd these claims are before he died about ten years ago to the Shelby County Historical Commission. Also, please do not use the recent book by Rushing. She is not an historian and the book is full of gross errors. If you still have doubts about the Burkle Estate or the Hunt-Phelan house, check with thee director of Special Collections at the Univerity of Memphis library.
Tubacranger (
talk)
14:01, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
The above section was started on
User talk:DoxTxob#Burkle Estate
doxTxob \
talk
00:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
First, the article states it as a fact that Burkle was a "conductor on the Underground Railroad." The Underground Railroad existed, but not in the South, especially Memphis. FYI, the Undergound Railraod existed in the Northern States to assist runaway slaves pass through the North so they could not be arrested and returned South. The Fugitive Slave Laws reqired Federal law enforcement officials to assist in the return of runaway slaves. For this you should read legitimate historical sources on the Compromise of 1850 and the Fugitive Slave Laws. Thus, the first premise, that is the existive of the Underground Railroad in Memphis, is disproved. History is not an exact science, but it is a rigid academic discipline. It does require some basis in a primary source that can be corroborated. There were some Union sympathizers in Memphis (five in Shelby County voted for Lincoln). All of these claims about "Slavhaven"and the Underground Railroad in Memphis have arisen in the later half of the Twentieth Century. The managers of "Slavehaven" used to take visitors to the cellar to show where the railroad tracks were once! Unless you can come up with some primary sources, let me repeat "primary" to support these claims I will continue to delete the false claims. The Memphis Flyer and the others cited in the article do no qualify. Have you ever asked yourself how a tunne was dug to the river and kept a secret. Do you realize was an incredible feat of engineering that would take in the 1850s? I could write several pages on this subject but I think I have proven my point. Wikipedia claims to be an encyclopedia. If so, it should demand a higher level of proof. To this date no one has ever priveded substantial evidence to support these claims. If you have it, you should provide it.
tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 03:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the typos. I have an old computer and there is a screen lag between input and the display.
Tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 14:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
To equate an historical discussion such as the Burkle Estate with a theological discussion is an absurdity. An encyclopedic entry is not about belief systems. It's concern is with corroborative evidence to accept the hypothesis. To state that some believe the house was used to assist runaways is acceptable if support is provided either in the written record, archaeological evidence or other acceptable sources. In this case that has not been done by any of the claiments. Even the Flyer admits that is the only fact regarding the Burkle house. "Slavehaven" as a part of the "Underground Railroad" has not been proven. This is a case of local wishful thinking. Asking me to prove the myth is a myth is a logical impossibility when no assumptions are based on evidence which could then be tested in the empirical world. Nonexistence is non existence. The case here rests, prima facie, on the lack of evidence. It cannot be proven, ergo, it does not exist until evidence is produced to support the claim. Actually, the real story is probably found in the Flyer. The strongest evidence in this case is that the Memphis Ciy Commission swallowed this line and appropriated a significant amount of money for its restoration. The real story is about money and greed. Without money from the city the museum would never have been developed. This case can be made. There are public records to support it. It further fits into an effort to adopt the resistance model to current African American history with a local example. Where heroes do not exist they are manufactured. The burden of proof rests upon those who make the claim. You might recall that a few years ago some unsubtantiated false claims were made on Wikipedia about John Sigenthaller, the former edtor of the Nashville Tennessean. Wikipedida removed them because they were not true; there was no proof. When good evidence is produced I will accept it and let this entry rest as it. Until then, I will not let these lies stand unrefuted. Note the line under this box that states "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." I have not removed any part of the article that meets this criteria; I have removed those portions that do not!. If you have the proof, produce it; if not, then leave the lies out.
Tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 04:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I have over thirty years experience as an author and as an historian. I have both written and edited encyclopedic material for publications and professional journals. The purpose of verificability is not to determine whether someone has made a claim, but whether or not the claim is authentic, thus truthful. On a persoanl note to you, these claims about the Burkle Estate and the Underground Railroad would not clear the vetting process of a true encyclopedia exercising peer review. Perhaps Wikipedia should drop the word "Encyclopedia" and rename itself the "People's Forum." No problem with the house being used as a museum for the history of slavery in America or even focus upon that subject. There is a fair represention of the totality of the black experience at the Pink Palace, but as long as it adds to our knowledge, that is fine and good the more the better. However, to emphasize these rumors without acceptable evidence is intellectual dishonesty. As I have inferred earlier, the burden of proof rests with the caliment.
Tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 23:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Tubacranger, please stop adding the link to the Britannica article on this topic. It is not considered to be a valid source on Wikipedia, as it is a tertiary source.
Wikipedia relies on secondary sources for its content. If you have a reliable secondary source, then feel free to add it. However, a primary source is generally unacceptable as it falls into the original research policy, and tertiary sources like encyclopedias should have secondary sources of their own for their material. You should bypass the encyclopedic link and link directly to their source instead.
So, please, stop it. What you're doing is not acceptable editing or behavior on Wikipedia. If you have
reliable secondary sources then add those. Otherwise, stop. --
Otto (
talk)
20:46, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Otto, "reliable secondary source" is an oxymoron. No secondary source has value if it lacks solid primary sources to suppot it. If you do not know the meaning, look it up in the OED or Websters or any other dictionary that reads at your level. Secondary sources must ALWAYS defer to primary sources. I will not set idle while amateurs undermine an historical process that has stood the test of time and scholarship for hundreds of years. The current claims of those who control the Burkle Estate and market it as a stop on the Undeground Railroad are fraudulent and it is time for them to be corrected! They are now appearing in the CMOM and in childrens books. Thus, a lie is being layered and incorporated into the history of an area and era without rigorous scrutiny. The vandilism in this entire process is the nefarious effort to remove the truth and replace it with a lie. That these claims have been made is now a fact, and they are a part of the story, but they cannot be supported and that, too, is a part of the story. The inclusion of the Brittanica entry gives the intelligent thinking person the opportunity to come to his/her own understading of the total controvrsy. Stop being a ludite, it you had any confidence in your postion you would devleop your argument in an open forum where it could be subjected to scrutiny by experts. Your conduct in this exchange is a perfect excmaple why Wikipedia is not accepted as an authoritative source by any professional journal! Tubacranger ( talk) 04:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
" If a topic has no reliable sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Source WP:RS. The claims made regarding the Burkle Estate do not have 'reliable resources.' The link to the Encyclopedia Brittanica provides an accurate definition of The Underground Railroad. Tubacranger ( talk) 09:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Otto: Back when "we" were using the Commodor 64 for home computing we were taught the concept of GIGO; "Garbage In Garbage Out." There is another "Folk" wisdom that says a chain is no stronger than its weakest link. Until Wikipedia sets uniform standards, and enforces them, it will remain the joke it is. It is not just I who disagrees. Oral history has its standards and here, I again, have more than a passing knowledge. Oral historians have the responsibility to correct errors when they emerge. As it now stands, I do not know a professor in the country who will accept Wikipedia as a source for a freshman paper. I have seen the sad and pathetic results in student's work when they use Wikipedia. Even though students are instructed not to use it, it is on-line, easy to use and they assume it is accurate. Much to their chagrin they learn that the text book and seocndary sources do not agree. Texts and articles written by competent scholars who know how to use both primary and secondary sources through careful vetting with the benefit of peer reiew are suprior. In fact, that is how legitimate encyclopedia entires are processed. Wikipedia could be a fantastic tool, but it is not there now. If an entry is 80% correct, and most I have seen are, should error on key questions, there is a major problems. The current status of Wikipedia, especially on controversial issues, is resistent to this type of scrutiy. Tubacranger ( talk) 15:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I am a university student and a new user on Wikipedia. This is the first major edit I have made as a Wiki editor. I was just letting you all know that I added a paragraph under the controversy section which further elaborates on the controversy surrounding the Burkle Estate. I hope I did everything right in terms of citing the sources and such. Please feel free to make any edits to it and provide feedback on it. I am still learning how to edit Wikipedia.
I also just wanted to mention that most of the citations on this article are extremely out-of-date and new citations need to be added to create this article. HabeshaKid ( talk) 21:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is absolutly no evidence to support the Slavehaven claims. The citations used are amateurish and based on recent folkore. They would not be accepted by any History department for a term paper. The claims are "lies" used by wishful dreamers to obtain government grants. If you have any good evidence then cite it! A similar effort was made by the owner of the Hunt Phelan home. Fortunately, the Wall Street Journal smelled a rat and sent an investigator who exposed these fraudulent claims for what the are. Every legitimate local historian refutes these claims. Even Arthur Prince, an African American Memphis historian had shown how absurd these claims are before he died about ten years ago to the Shelby County Historical Commission. Also, please do not use the recent book by Rushing. She is not an historian and the book is full of gross errors. If you still have doubts about the Burkle Estate or the Hunt-Phelan house, check with thee director of Special Collections at the Univerity of Memphis library.
Tubacranger (
talk)
14:01, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
The above section was started on
User talk:DoxTxob#Burkle Estate
doxTxob \
talk
00:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
First, the article states it as a fact that Burkle was a "conductor on the Underground Railroad." The Underground Railroad existed, but not in the South, especially Memphis. FYI, the Undergound Railraod existed in the Northern States to assist runaway slaves pass through the North so they could not be arrested and returned South. The Fugitive Slave Laws reqired Federal law enforcement officials to assist in the return of runaway slaves. For this you should read legitimate historical sources on the Compromise of 1850 and the Fugitive Slave Laws. Thus, the first premise, that is the existive of the Underground Railroad in Memphis, is disproved. History is not an exact science, but it is a rigid academic discipline. It does require some basis in a primary source that can be corroborated. There were some Union sympathizers in Memphis (five in Shelby County voted for Lincoln). All of these claims about "Slavhaven"and the Underground Railroad in Memphis have arisen in the later half of the Twentieth Century. The managers of "Slavehaven" used to take visitors to the cellar to show where the railroad tracks were once! Unless you can come up with some primary sources, let me repeat "primary" to support these claims I will continue to delete the false claims. The Memphis Flyer and the others cited in the article do no qualify. Have you ever asked yourself how a tunne was dug to the river and kept a secret. Do you realize was an incredible feat of engineering that would take in the 1850s? I could write several pages on this subject but I think I have proven my point. Wikipedia claims to be an encyclopedia. If so, it should demand a higher level of proof. To this date no one has ever priveded substantial evidence to support these claims. If you have it, you should provide it.
tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 03:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the typos. I have an old computer and there is a screen lag between input and the display.
Tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 14:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
To equate an historical discussion such as the Burkle Estate with a theological discussion is an absurdity. An encyclopedic entry is not about belief systems. It's concern is with corroborative evidence to accept the hypothesis. To state that some believe the house was used to assist runaways is acceptable if support is provided either in the written record, archaeological evidence or other acceptable sources. In this case that has not been done by any of the claiments. Even the Flyer admits that is the only fact regarding the Burkle house. "Slavehaven" as a part of the "Underground Railroad" has not been proven. This is a case of local wishful thinking. Asking me to prove the myth is a myth is a logical impossibility when no assumptions are based on evidence which could then be tested in the empirical world. Nonexistence is non existence. The case here rests, prima facie, on the lack of evidence. It cannot be proven, ergo, it does not exist until evidence is produced to support the claim. Actually, the real story is probably found in the Flyer. The strongest evidence in this case is that the Memphis Ciy Commission swallowed this line and appropriated a significant amount of money for its restoration. The real story is about money and greed. Without money from the city the museum would never have been developed. This case can be made. There are public records to support it. It further fits into an effort to adopt the resistance model to current African American history with a local example. Where heroes do not exist they are manufactured. The burden of proof rests upon those who make the claim. You might recall that a few years ago some unsubtantiated false claims were made on Wikipedia about John Sigenthaller, the former edtor of the Nashville Tennessean. Wikipedida removed them because they were not true; there was no proof. When good evidence is produced I will accept it and let this entry rest as it. Until then, I will not let these lies stand unrefuted. Note the line under this box that states "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." I have not removed any part of the article that meets this criteria; I have removed those portions that do not!. If you have the proof, produce it; if not, then leave the lies out.
Tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 04:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I have over thirty years experience as an author and as an historian. I have both written and edited encyclopedic material for publications and professional journals. The purpose of verificability is not to determine whether someone has made a claim, but whether or not the claim is authentic, thus truthful. On a persoanl note to you, these claims about the Burkle Estate and the Underground Railroad would not clear the vetting process of a true encyclopedia exercising peer review. Perhaps Wikipedia should drop the word "Encyclopedia" and rename itself the "People's Forum." No problem with the house being used as a museum for the history of slavery in America or even focus upon that subject. There is a fair represention of the totality of the black experience at the Pink Palace, but as long as it adds to our knowledge, that is fine and good the more the better. However, to emphasize these rumors without acceptable evidence is intellectual dishonesty. As I have inferred earlier, the burden of proof rests with the caliment.
Tubacranger Tubacranger ( talk) 23:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Tubacranger, please stop adding the link to the Britannica article on this topic. It is not considered to be a valid source on Wikipedia, as it is a tertiary source.
Wikipedia relies on secondary sources for its content. If you have a reliable secondary source, then feel free to add it. However, a primary source is generally unacceptable as it falls into the original research policy, and tertiary sources like encyclopedias should have secondary sources of their own for their material. You should bypass the encyclopedic link and link directly to their source instead.
So, please, stop it. What you're doing is not acceptable editing or behavior on Wikipedia. If you have
reliable secondary sources then add those. Otherwise, stop. --
Otto (
talk)
20:46, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Otto, "reliable secondary source" is an oxymoron. No secondary source has value if it lacks solid primary sources to suppot it. If you do not know the meaning, look it up in the OED or Websters or any other dictionary that reads at your level. Secondary sources must ALWAYS defer to primary sources. I will not set idle while amateurs undermine an historical process that has stood the test of time and scholarship for hundreds of years. The current claims of those who control the Burkle Estate and market it as a stop on the Undeground Railroad are fraudulent and it is time for them to be corrected! They are now appearing in the CMOM and in childrens books. Thus, a lie is being layered and incorporated into the history of an area and era without rigorous scrutiny. The vandilism in this entire process is the nefarious effort to remove the truth and replace it with a lie. That these claims have been made is now a fact, and they are a part of the story, but they cannot be supported and that, too, is a part of the story. The inclusion of the Brittanica entry gives the intelligent thinking person the opportunity to come to his/her own understading of the total controvrsy. Stop being a ludite, it you had any confidence in your postion you would devleop your argument in an open forum where it could be subjected to scrutiny by experts. Your conduct in this exchange is a perfect excmaple why Wikipedia is not accepted as an authoritative source by any professional journal! Tubacranger ( talk) 04:02, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
" If a topic has no reliable sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Source WP:RS. The claims made regarding the Burkle Estate do not have 'reliable resources.' The link to the Encyclopedia Brittanica provides an accurate definition of The Underground Railroad. Tubacranger ( talk) 09:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Otto: Back when "we" were using the Commodor 64 for home computing we were taught the concept of GIGO; "Garbage In Garbage Out." There is another "Folk" wisdom that says a chain is no stronger than its weakest link. Until Wikipedia sets uniform standards, and enforces them, it will remain the joke it is. It is not just I who disagrees. Oral history has its standards and here, I again, have more than a passing knowledge. Oral historians have the responsibility to correct errors when they emerge. As it now stands, I do not know a professor in the country who will accept Wikipedia as a source for a freshman paper. I have seen the sad and pathetic results in student's work when they use Wikipedia. Even though students are instructed not to use it, it is on-line, easy to use and they assume it is accurate. Much to their chagrin they learn that the text book and seocndary sources do not agree. Texts and articles written by competent scholars who know how to use both primary and secondary sources through careful vetting with the benefit of peer reiew are suprior. In fact, that is how legitimate encyclopedia entires are processed. Wikipedia could be a fantastic tool, but it is not there now. If an entry is 80% correct, and most I have seen are, should error on key questions, there is a major problems. The current status of Wikipedia, especially on controversial issues, is resistent to this type of scrutiy. Tubacranger ( talk) 15:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I am a university student and a new user on Wikipedia. This is the first major edit I have made as a Wiki editor. I was just letting you all know that I added a paragraph under the controversy section which further elaborates on the controversy surrounding the Burkle Estate. I hope I did everything right in terms of citing the sources and such. Please feel free to make any edits to it and provide feedback on it. I am still learning how to edit Wikipedia.
I also just wanted to mention that most of the citations on this article are extremely out-of-date and new citations need to be added to create this article. HabeshaKid ( talk) 21:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)