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Could someone please update the table and the diagram? Lower Saxony is now governed by a SPD/CDU government. Alektor89 ( talk) 17:04, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Wiki policy isn't to automatically translate every non-english word into english. It is to use the word used by english-language speakers. If a non-english word is in effect incorporated into english then it isn't translated. For example, Kaiser, Tsar, Taoiseach. Tánaiste, Dáil Éireann for the lower house of the Irish parliament, not House of Representatives, its literal translation.
Also contrary to what was asserted, in bicameral systems, the upper house does not have to approve legislation and does not have to be involved in the selection of a head of government. I have rewritten the relevant section to remove this inaccurate claim. FearÉIREANN 19:53 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hmm...shouldn't we discuss the Bundesrat in Imperial Germany? john 05:37, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The composition section is confusing for English-speakers not familiar with German politics, could we add a brief definition for what a 'Land' is? I'd add it but I'm really not sure what would be the best translation.
I did some rewording, turning this passage
into:
I don't know whether this is clearly comprehensible, so I want to explain the situation back then:
In 2002, the Brandenburg votes were decisive in order to let a certain law either pass or to reject it. However, the two coalition partner found themselves on different sides of the fence. Their agreement would have called for abstaining, but the national leadership of both parties pushed the state leaders to move this way or that way: mainly Schröder's SPD pushed the minister-president Stolpe (SPD) to vote in favour of the law, while the CDU was satisfied with abstention, since that would have defeated the bill.
The Bundesrat assembled and the states cast their votes. The President of the house, Berlin mayor Wowereit (also SPD), asked each state for their votes. When he asked Brandenburg, minister-president Stolpe (SPD) answered "Yes!", immediately followed by his deputy Schönbohm (CDU) answering "No!". Wowereit declared that the vote cannot be split and asked a second time. Again Stolpe answered "Yes!", to which Schönbohm added "Mr President, you know my opinion!". Wowereit asked a third time. Again Stolpe answered "Yes!", while Schönbohm remained silent this time. After this, Wowereit declared that Brandenburg had voted in the affirmitive. This caused a row in the assembly, with shouting going back and forth. Then the vote continued, with all other states casting their votes without any difficulty. This way, the bill passed and was refered to the Federal President, who voiced his concerns over the procedure but signed it into law anyway. The CDU opposition, through some the states governed by them, brought the matter to the court, who ruled that the voting procedure was faulty, the Brandenburg vote invalid and hence the law invalid. (Later, a compromise between the parties was reached and a new bill passed without controversy).
If anyone thinks that my edit does not makes this clear, please don't hesitate to improve my wording. Str1977 21:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The answer is easy: political science knows two systems: A) The Senate Principle - one state one vote B) The Federal Council Principle - votes by population relation The German Federal Council is NO Senate! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:638:607:205:0:0:0:30 ( talk) 06:27, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
But the German system is a compromise between THE SENATE PRINCIPLE and THE VOTE BY POPULATION RELATION because the relation is modified. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.158.222.105 (
talk)
19:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I think the German Government hasn't done a good job by having population as a factor. The Australian Government will under-represent any new state that joins up, just like what's happening with the territories there. (Because the Senate has to have half of the House of Represetatives' membership, I think that the first six states will happily let newer states feed off them. :-)) Also, Washington DC doesn't have any representation in the Senate either. If you want a federation to work out properly, represent everyone equally in the upper house. Scott Gall 13:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC) PS: I've found out that the Excel calculation for the number of seats given to each Land is =IF([insert reference here]>7000000,6,IF([insert reference here]>6000000,5,IF([insert reference here]>2000000,4,3))). And if New Zealand became a Land, we'd get 4 seats in the Bundesrat.
Bremen 664,000 North Rhine-Westphalia 18,033,000 Both having the same number of vote would not be considered as fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.87 ( talk) 18:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, the German Constituion was under heavy influence from the Allies after WWII, so its more or less their fault that the Bundesländer have different numbers of members in the Bundesrat. In a true upper house every state should have one vote...or 2 whatever as long as they are equal. Since the Amount of population is already represented in the Bundestag (the lower house). Of course Northrhine Westphalia sends more people in the Bundestag than Bremen. But why should states with a large population also dominate the upper house. You dont need it then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.57.93.154 ( talk) 14:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
It has been nearly 30 years since I studied German government, but my memory (which could, of course, be faulty) tells me that no Land had more than five votes in the Bundesrat back then—that it was either 3, 4, or 5 votes each. Now this article says some have six. So I'm wondering:
I'd love to hear from someone who knows. Unschool ( talk) 01:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Hallo Unschool,
And if you want to see a reliable source for all that, here it is. Tomeasy T C 18:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Harald Ringstorff isn't the President of the Bundesrat. Since Nov 1. 2007 to 31. Oct. 2008 the President of the Bundesrat is Ole von Beust, the fisrt mayor of Hamburg and President of the Senate of Hamburg. Ringstorff is first Vice President of Bundesrat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.166.160.227 ( talk) 20:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Should this not be mentioned? I'd add it myself but I'm unclear from this text as to its implications: http://www.bundesrat.de/nn_11006/EN/organisation-en/europakammer-en/europakammer-en-inhalt.html?__nnn=true
The table in the "Composition" section has a column showing vote allocations if the Penrose method had been used. Is there a reason for this, because it seems like potentially original research simply by being analysis? 212.113.145.253 ( talk) 01:15, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The following was recently added:
Since the Bundesrat didn't exist from 1871 and the Reichsrat was dissolved during the Third Reich, I am not sure what this edit was intended to mean. -- Boson ( talk) 10:09, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
First, I wouldn't say you can exchange "Reich" and "Bund". As a general rule, if it's a "Reich" (Reichstag, Deutsches Reich) it is more centralized then if it's a "Bund" (Bundestag, Deutscher Bund, Bundesrepublik) Also up to this day the building where the "Bundestag" (parliament) meets is called "Reichstag[sgebaeude]". On the matter of where the Bundesrat/Reichsrat was seated, it is not entiraly untrue to say it was located in the same building as the Bundestag/Reichstag. During the period of the "Deutsches Reich" (1871-1918) and the Weimarer Republik (1918-1933) it was seated in the "Reichstag". It was then discarded during the "Third Reich" and reopened (1949) in the "Bundeshaus" in the provisional capital of West Germany (Bonn) where it shared it's seat with the "Bundestag". As due to it's non existance in the period of 1933 to 1949 one can say that, when there was a Bundesrat/Reichsrat it was seated in the same Building as the corresponding Bundestag/Reichstag in the period between 1871 to 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.225.32.20 ( talk) 10:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
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I'll delete the current Government / Neutral / Opposition distinction from the infobox and other spots. It is misleading rather than helpful. This version of the article had an image showing all the parties in the Länder governments. That was more accurate, but also confusing due to its complexity. From 1949 up until ca. 2000, looking at the Bundesrat as pro or contra the federal government often helped understand or even predict its decisions, but those days are gone. The political landscape has gotten more diverse, largely due to the growth of the Left and the Greens. The Länder that are governed by the same parties (Union and SPD) as the Bund often vote against it anyway. Currently, Union and SPD lead 14 of 16 Länder, and they are part of the government in the remaining two, but that doesn't affect the voting behavior of each Land in the Bundesrat much. It's more complex than a simple government / neutral / opposition scheme. We won't be able to explain the complexities and vagaries of the German political system in the infobox. It's better to have no image of Bundesrat seat shares than a misleading one. -- Chrisahn ( talk) 22:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
STOP ADDING UNSOURCED CONTENT. YOU ARE BREAKING THE BASIC RULES OF WIKIPEDIA. If you keep adding unsourced content, I will report you at WP:ANI.
Thanks for finally providing a somewhat useful source. That's progress. The source is four and a half years old though. I tried very hard to find more recent sources on bundesrat.de making similar claims. I couldn't find any, and I don't think you will be able to find "tons of those", but maybe there are some. I'm looking forward to discussing them. But you have to follow the rules: No disputed content in the article without sources. — Chrisahn ( talk) 11:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm going through it bit by bit over a week or so. I'm not German, so I rely on experts here to check that I haven't introduced falsehoods. Problem is that the text is often unclear. I'm doing my best, but need your help. Tony (talk) 06:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to question the title of the article (and the institution). According to German Wikipedia, the name of the council in German is only "Bundesrat". "Deutscher Bundesrat" was only used officially up to 1952. Maybe some people still call it "Deutscher Bundesrat" because of the analogy "Deutscher Bundestag."
Google tells me that only some newspapers or private citizen once used "Deutscher Bundesrat". Bundeszentrale redirects to "Bundesrat." Therefore, I suggest to change the title of this article. Kind regards, Ziko ( talk) 17:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Bremen is shown both in the parl. diagram and in the table below to be composed of the SPD, Greens and The Left. Yet, on the Bundesrat website ( https://www.bundesrat.de/DE/bundesrat/laender/hb/hb-node.html), there are no Left delegates for Bremen directly. So shouldn't the pink stripe on the diagram be removed? Maxwhollymoralground ( talk) 15:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
The article talks about the old "West German" capital being Bonn. This article is about the Bundesrat of the Federal Republic of Germany (Germany). Is there any reason why this country's capital is described as the "West German" capital. West Germany is modern Germany. So, why not just call Bonn the old "German" capital? CicolasMoon ( talk) 01:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Bundesrat and it's formation 39.43.70.179 ( talk) 14:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
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Could someone please update the table and the diagram? Lower Saxony is now governed by a SPD/CDU government. Alektor89 ( talk) 17:04, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Wiki policy isn't to automatically translate every non-english word into english. It is to use the word used by english-language speakers. If a non-english word is in effect incorporated into english then it isn't translated. For example, Kaiser, Tsar, Taoiseach. Tánaiste, Dáil Éireann for the lower house of the Irish parliament, not House of Representatives, its literal translation.
Also contrary to what was asserted, in bicameral systems, the upper house does not have to approve legislation and does not have to be involved in the selection of a head of government. I have rewritten the relevant section to remove this inaccurate claim. FearÉIREANN 19:53 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hmm...shouldn't we discuss the Bundesrat in Imperial Germany? john 05:37, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The composition section is confusing for English-speakers not familiar with German politics, could we add a brief definition for what a 'Land' is? I'd add it but I'm really not sure what would be the best translation.
I did some rewording, turning this passage
into:
I don't know whether this is clearly comprehensible, so I want to explain the situation back then:
In 2002, the Brandenburg votes were decisive in order to let a certain law either pass or to reject it. However, the two coalition partner found themselves on different sides of the fence. Their agreement would have called for abstaining, but the national leadership of both parties pushed the state leaders to move this way or that way: mainly Schröder's SPD pushed the minister-president Stolpe (SPD) to vote in favour of the law, while the CDU was satisfied with abstention, since that would have defeated the bill.
The Bundesrat assembled and the states cast their votes. The President of the house, Berlin mayor Wowereit (also SPD), asked each state for their votes. When he asked Brandenburg, minister-president Stolpe (SPD) answered "Yes!", immediately followed by his deputy Schönbohm (CDU) answering "No!". Wowereit declared that the vote cannot be split and asked a second time. Again Stolpe answered "Yes!", to which Schönbohm added "Mr President, you know my opinion!". Wowereit asked a third time. Again Stolpe answered "Yes!", while Schönbohm remained silent this time. After this, Wowereit declared that Brandenburg had voted in the affirmitive. This caused a row in the assembly, with shouting going back and forth. Then the vote continued, with all other states casting their votes without any difficulty. This way, the bill passed and was refered to the Federal President, who voiced his concerns over the procedure but signed it into law anyway. The CDU opposition, through some the states governed by them, brought the matter to the court, who ruled that the voting procedure was faulty, the Brandenburg vote invalid and hence the law invalid. (Later, a compromise between the parties was reached and a new bill passed without controversy).
If anyone thinks that my edit does not makes this clear, please don't hesitate to improve my wording. Str1977 21:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The answer is easy: political science knows two systems: A) The Senate Principle - one state one vote B) The Federal Council Principle - votes by population relation The German Federal Council is NO Senate! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:638:607:205:0:0:0:30 ( talk) 06:27, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
But the German system is a compromise between THE SENATE PRINCIPLE and THE VOTE BY POPULATION RELATION because the relation is modified. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.158.222.105 (
talk)
19:48, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I think the German Government hasn't done a good job by having population as a factor. The Australian Government will under-represent any new state that joins up, just like what's happening with the territories there. (Because the Senate has to have half of the House of Represetatives' membership, I think that the first six states will happily let newer states feed off them. :-)) Also, Washington DC doesn't have any representation in the Senate either. If you want a federation to work out properly, represent everyone equally in the upper house. Scott Gall 13:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC) PS: I've found out that the Excel calculation for the number of seats given to each Land is =IF([insert reference here]>7000000,6,IF([insert reference here]>6000000,5,IF([insert reference here]>2000000,4,3))). And if New Zealand became a Land, we'd get 4 seats in the Bundesrat.
Bremen 664,000 North Rhine-Westphalia 18,033,000 Both having the same number of vote would not be considered as fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.87 ( talk) 18:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, the German Constituion was under heavy influence from the Allies after WWII, so its more or less their fault that the Bundesländer have different numbers of members in the Bundesrat. In a true upper house every state should have one vote...or 2 whatever as long as they are equal. Since the Amount of population is already represented in the Bundestag (the lower house). Of course Northrhine Westphalia sends more people in the Bundestag than Bremen. But why should states with a large population also dominate the upper house. You dont need it then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.57.93.154 ( talk) 14:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
It has been nearly 30 years since I studied German government, but my memory (which could, of course, be faulty) tells me that no Land had more than five votes in the Bundesrat back then—that it was either 3, 4, or 5 votes each. Now this article says some have six. So I'm wondering:
I'd love to hear from someone who knows. Unschool ( talk) 01:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Hallo Unschool,
And if you want to see a reliable source for all that, here it is. Tomeasy T C 18:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Harald Ringstorff isn't the President of the Bundesrat. Since Nov 1. 2007 to 31. Oct. 2008 the President of the Bundesrat is Ole von Beust, the fisrt mayor of Hamburg and President of the Senate of Hamburg. Ringstorff is first Vice President of Bundesrat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.166.160.227 ( talk) 20:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Should this not be mentioned? I'd add it myself but I'm unclear from this text as to its implications: http://www.bundesrat.de/nn_11006/EN/organisation-en/europakammer-en/europakammer-en-inhalt.html?__nnn=true
The table in the "Composition" section has a column showing vote allocations if the Penrose method had been used. Is there a reason for this, because it seems like potentially original research simply by being analysis? 212.113.145.253 ( talk) 01:15, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The following was recently added:
Since the Bundesrat didn't exist from 1871 and the Reichsrat was dissolved during the Third Reich, I am not sure what this edit was intended to mean. -- Boson ( talk) 10:09, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
First, I wouldn't say you can exchange "Reich" and "Bund". As a general rule, if it's a "Reich" (Reichstag, Deutsches Reich) it is more centralized then if it's a "Bund" (Bundestag, Deutscher Bund, Bundesrepublik) Also up to this day the building where the "Bundestag" (parliament) meets is called "Reichstag[sgebaeude]". On the matter of where the Bundesrat/Reichsrat was seated, it is not entiraly untrue to say it was located in the same building as the Bundestag/Reichstag. During the period of the "Deutsches Reich" (1871-1918) and the Weimarer Republik (1918-1933) it was seated in the "Reichstag". It was then discarded during the "Third Reich" and reopened (1949) in the "Bundeshaus" in the provisional capital of West Germany (Bonn) where it shared it's seat with the "Bundestag". As due to it's non existance in the period of 1933 to 1949 one can say that, when there was a Bundesrat/Reichsrat it was seated in the same Building as the corresponding Bundestag/Reichstag in the period between 1871 to 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.225.32.20 ( talk) 10:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
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I'll delete the current Government / Neutral / Opposition distinction from the infobox and other spots. It is misleading rather than helpful. This version of the article had an image showing all the parties in the Länder governments. That was more accurate, but also confusing due to its complexity. From 1949 up until ca. 2000, looking at the Bundesrat as pro or contra the federal government often helped understand or even predict its decisions, but those days are gone. The political landscape has gotten more diverse, largely due to the growth of the Left and the Greens. The Länder that are governed by the same parties (Union and SPD) as the Bund often vote against it anyway. Currently, Union and SPD lead 14 of 16 Länder, and they are part of the government in the remaining two, but that doesn't affect the voting behavior of each Land in the Bundesrat much. It's more complex than a simple government / neutral / opposition scheme. We won't be able to explain the complexities and vagaries of the German political system in the infobox. It's better to have no image of Bundesrat seat shares than a misleading one. -- Chrisahn ( talk) 22:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
STOP ADDING UNSOURCED CONTENT. YOU ARE BREAKING THE BASIC RULES OF WIKIPEDIA. If you keep adding unsourced content, I will report you at WP:ANI.
Thanks for finally providing a somewhat useful source. That's progress. The source is four and a half years old though. I tried very hard to find more recent sources on bundesrat.de making similar claims. I couldn't find any, and I don't think you will be able to find "tons of those", but maybe there are some. I'm looking forward to discussing them. But you have to follow the rules: No disputed content in the article without sources. — Chrisahn ( talk) 11:22, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm going through it bit by bit over a week or so. I'm not German, so I rely on experts here to check that I haven't introduced falsehoods. Problem is that the text is often unclear. I'm doing my best, but need your help. Tony (talk) 06:38, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to question the title of the article (and the institution). According to German Wikipedia, the name of the council in German is only "Bundesrat". "Deutscher Bundesrat" was only used officially up to 1952. Maybe some people still call it "Deutscher Bundesrat" because of the analogy "Deutscher Bundestag."
Google tells me that only some newspapers or private citizen once used "Deutscher Bundesrat". Bundeszentrale redirects to "Bundesrat." Therefore, I suggest to change the title of this article. Kind regards, Ziko ( talk) 17:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Bremen is shown both in the parl. diagram and in the table below to be composed of the SPD, Greens and The Left. Yet, on the Bundesrat website ( https://www.bundesrat.de/DE/bundesrat/laender/hb/hb-node.html), there are no Left delegates for Bremen directly. So shouldn't the pink stripe on the diagram be removed? Maxwhollymoralground ( talk) 15:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
The article talks about the old "West German" capital being Bonn. This article is about the Bundesrat of the Federal Republic of Germany (Germany). Is there any reason why this country's capital is described as the "West German" capital. West Germany is modern Germany. So, why not just call Bonn the old "German" capital? CicolasMoon ( talk) 01:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Bundesrat and it's formation 39.43.70.179 ( talk) 14:22, 16 April 2024 (UTC)