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A tag has been placed on Bulgarians in Turkey, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as at articles for deletion. Under the specified criteria, where an article has substantially identical content to that of an article deleted after debate, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{
hangon}}
to the top of
the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on
the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact
one of these admins to request that they
userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you.
This page has been recreated despite of it being deleted by Admin after a vote. The recreated page has the same issues as before see deletion discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bulgarians_in_Turkey
The deletion template has been removed before, pls do not remove the AfD template until this is settled.
Hittit (
talk)
15:40, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
First of all, this is a content dispute and nothing of this is worthy of even discussing the deletion of the article. Then again, you haven't even mention some of those points: you went for deletion before attempting to resolve the issues. Here are my replies.
I think I was pretty clear. Todor → Bozhinov 18:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
As reviewing administrator, I am not quite convinced that the article is close enough to be unquestionably covered by G4. I suggest first trying to find a compromise acceptable form of the article. Although I am not familiar with the subject, if there is another ethnic group of somewhat similar but confusable status, it would seem reasonable to mention the fact in the article. If no solution can be found, either take it to the Ethnic conflict noticeboard, or back to AfD . DGG ( talk ) 22:36, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
As I explained here, the interpretation of the source to say that all 300,000 quoted Bulgarian speakers are Pomaks is just as speculative. We cannot leave the number without some explanation because it would be hugely misleading, the reader would think all these Bulgarian speakers in European Turkey are ethnic Bulgarians. We cannot leave it as "though as most are Pomaks their classification as Bulgarians is disputed" either because it is inaccurate. Serious scholars agree that Pomaks are of Bulgarian origin, and "most are Pomaks" is more speculative than the fact that this number includes Turkish refugees.
Yes, I acknowledge my addition that the number includes Turks may be bordering on WP:OR, but in this case I believe it is more accurate and less controversial than the combined claim that most of the 300,000 are Pomaks (WP:OR as well) and that Pomaks are not classified as Bulgarians. I am aware that neither solution is perfect, but I think my wording is better, safer and clearer. — Toдor Boжinov — 14:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
The source is nowhere saying spoken by Bulgarian Turks, so we can not write that in these number there are Turks. Pensionero ( talk) 15:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
It saying all are Pomaks: "Language name - Bulgarian", "Language use - Spoken by Muslim Pomaks in Turkey and Greece. Also use Turkish [tur]." Pensionero ( talk) 15:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Pls consult the initial reason for the speedy deletion of this article. Having read the introduction section I remain baffled, who is this article about? There is already a separate article on Pomaks and Turks from Bulgaria.
In this article, there seems to be a disagreement between me, Kostja, Pensionero and Hittit on the interpretation of the following Ethnologue pages: [1] [2]. In particular, there seem to be differing opinions as to:
And also:
I'm resorting to RfC because Kostja and Hittit have pretty much stayed out of the talkpage (while reverting/editing nonetheless), and my discussion with Pensionero has been rather fruitless, as he seems to be refusing to acknowledge my points at all.
Thanks for any assistance, — Toдor Boжinov — 22:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
I totally agree with Kostja, first the Pomak language doesn't exist, the used source and usually the sources claim Pomak dialect of the Bulgarian, the Torbeshi are not included and so there is no arguing for Bulgarian-Macedonian dialect. About the Bulgarian Turks whether you are showing how many citizens of Turkey were born in Bulgaria here Ethnologue clearly says the "usage of the language" by these 300,000 in the country is by "Muslim Pomaks" and not stating other group [3]. Pomaks are usually considered as descedents of Bulgarians, that some Turkish authors claim ridicilous origins of the Pomaks doesn't make them disputive. Outside the discussion here a video for the Pomaks in Turkey, in their speech you can see the Pomak dialect is clear Bulgarian [4]. Pensionero ( talk) 15:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Here you sources saying the Pomak language doesn't exist as iit is Bulgarian [5] [6] [7] The list of sources goes on Pensionero ( talk) 16:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
It has almoust been one year since the above discussion and still this article stands on mostly Pomaks in Turkey. The term Pomak is used on equal basis in the opening section of the article as the term Bulgarian. Reference of Pomaks in Turkey needs to be removed and concentrated on Bulgarians in Turkey. There is already a Wikipedia article on Pomaks with reference of Pomaks in Turkey. It is also interesting to note why did the Pomaks flee Bulgaria, same as the Turks fleeing Bulgaria to escape persecution and forced Bulgarisation. Hittit ( talk) 12:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I have been asked to discuss on a matter concerning ethnicity by an user with no account who claims there is a consensus for something, as it is an IP it cannot be known who is he or whether he has discussed this subject himself.
1. Bulgarians are people that live in Bulgaria, in the neighbouring countries, and in the diaspora. They are Slavic people and are counted in censa as Bulgarian because they declare themselves Bulgarian. Some people local to both Macedonia and Serbia declare themselves Bulgarian whilst others similar may choose Macedonian or Serbian. Likewise some Slavic people from Bulgaria choose to identify as Macedonian.
2. Pomaks are Slavic Muslims that are part of their wider Slavic population and they are indigenous to Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo/Serbia if not more places. They too are counted as Pomaks no matter where they are from because they declare themselves Pomaks.
3. If one Slavic Muslim living in a village with 99 other Pomaks in Macedonia chooses to call himself Macedonian, and if this is the entire population of the village, then the demographic structure will be 99% Pomak and 1% Macedonian on all publications. Pomak is the name of an ethnicity equal to Macedonian, equal to Bulgarian, and not a subcategory of anybody. Likewise if a Slavic Muslim in Turkey chose to identify as Bulgarian, then he cannot be a Pomak, it is one or the other, just like Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks.
Therefore, if an indigenous person to Turkey speaks his regional Slavic and identifies as Pomak, he can only be as Bulgarian as the Pomaks in Kosovo. If anybody assumed that a Pomak in Macedonia is Bulgarian, then he does so on the pretext that he assumes all Macedonians themselves to be Bulgarian. It may indeed be the case that one century ago many people did identify as Bulgarian in present-day Macedonia but many of their family and neighbours also identified as Serb - there is nothing concrete about identity. Today the Slavic majority of Macedonia calls itself Macedonian and only a small percentage of the indigenous people calls themselves Bulgarian or Serb.
The idea that Bulgarian is some kind of pan-ethnic term that comes between Slavic and another set of subgroups including Pomak is one that may be common with people, but is not accepted, and not sourced. Therefore I ask that anonymous editors please discontinue with this endeavour to lay claim to the Pomak population of this planet. -- OJ ( TALK)
The academic consensus is that Pomaks descend from Bulgarians. There are claimed to be 6 million Albanians in Turkey of whom only 500,000 have Albanian identity. The same issue is interpreted differently than your point of view at Turkish people, for example Northern African populations such as Tunisians are described to be composed of 25% Turks. This includes partial origin and less than 1% of Tunisia population speaks Turkish. The figure of 300,000- 600,000 Pomaks excludes partial origin and all are Bulgarian speakers. So I think it would be fair if somebody find a higher figure. I disagree with the removal of the number of people of Bulgarian descent who do not have Bulgarian identity(Pomaks as agreed by academics), unless the same change is made at the other Balkan articles, Turks in somewhere and Albanians in somewhere, etc....-09:18, 9 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.201.109 ( talk)
Pomak is sometime regional sometime ethnic definition as Bosnian, person can call itself whatever wanting. Magyars call themselves after a tribe like Bulgarians call themselves after Bulgars, Finno Turkic tribes, French call themselves after Franks, a Germanic tribe, Russians call themselves after Rus' people, a Viking tribe. Even though some of them do not carry any DNA of the tribes who named their nation - Hungarians have less than 1% N haplogroup for example. Pomaks declare themselves Pomaks in Turkey not Bulgarians. I disagree with the removal of the Pomaks here as long as 6 million of so called Albanians without such identity are said to be in Turkey in the articles and millions of Northern Africans with probable far Turkish descent are said to be Turks. Propose to remove all these at WP:Dispute Resolution and I will support you. Turkey does not really ask for an ethnic group at census so everything is a guess. The latest census to do so was the 1965 census which recorded nearly the same figure of speakers of Pomak language and Albanian language, see Demographics of Turkey, so this would mean that we should state here that there are as many Pomaks as Albanians in Turkey who are said to be 6 million. Although I am sure that the 6 million figure is erroneous what you removed in this article gets the article so far from this number at Albanians, while the Pomak descent may be actually numerically more than the Albanians in Turkey. As for Turkified Albanian and Pomak, according to the figures Bulgarian is spoken by more people as a mother tongue in Turkey than Albanian is — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.201.129 ( talk) 12:52, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
If you want to change, you should make a global change in my opinion. One fifth of UK's population is considered Irish people due to an unverified newspapers' claim that so many people are of Irish descent, see the infobox in the article by yourself. I understand your claim, it is correct from a point of view but here is not the best place to discuss this, better post it somewhere, where it can affect all articles. 149.62.200.144 ( talk) 16:19, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
I have already previously suggested the deletion of this article as it has severe issues, main being confusing Pomak Muslims in Turkey with the Bulgarian mainly patriarchate community in Istanbul. In fact many Pomak Muslims have been either expelled from their homes in the Rhodopes or have escaped Bulgarian persecution during the periods after the Russo-Turkish War. Mixing these two communities in one article as Bulgarians in Turkey is far from NPOV Hittit ( talk) 18:40, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Sure. Outright deletion may not be altogether the best thing if indeed there are persons identifying as Bulgarian living in Turkey but the article needs to be purely about them and that in turn would mean major chunks removed from it. I intend (when I get some more time) to request dispute resolution and I hope you feel inclined to take part in the talks. -- OJ ( TALK)
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A tag has been placed on Bulgarians in Turkey, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as at articles for deletion. Under the specified criteria, where an article has substantially identical content to that of an article deleted after debate, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{
hangon}}
to the top of
the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on
the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact
one of these admins to request that they
userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you.
This page has been recreated despite of it being deleted by Admin after a vote. The recreated page has the same issues as before see deletion discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bulgarians_in_Turkey
The deletion template has been removed before, pls do not remove the AfD template until this is settled.
Hittit (
talk)
15:40, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
First of all, this is a content dispute and nothing of this is worthy of even discussing the deletion of the article. Then again, you haven't even mention some of those points: you went for deletion before attempting to resolve the issues. Here are my replies.
I think I was pretty clear. Todor → Bozhinov 18:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
As reviewing administrator, I am not quite convinced that the article is close enough to be unquestionably covered by G4. I suggest first trying to find a compromise acceptable form of the article. Although I am not familiar with the subject, if there is another ethnic group of somewhat similar but confusable status, it would seem reasonable to mention the fact in the article. If no solution can be found, either take it to the Ethnic conflict noticeboard, or back to AfD . DGG ( talk ) 22:36, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
As I explained here, the interpretation of the source to say that all 300,000 quoted Bulgarian speakers are Pomaks is just as speculative. We cannot leave the number without some explanation because it would be hugely misleading, the reader would think all these Bulgarian speakers in European Turkey are ethnic Bulgarians. We cannot leave it as "though as most are Pomaks their classification as Bulgarians is disputed" either because it is inaccurate. Serious scholars agree that Pomaks are of Bulgarian origin, and "most are Pomaks" is more speculative than the fact that this number includes Turkish refugees.
Yes, I acknowledge my addition that the number includes Turks may be bordering on WP:OR, but in this case I believe it is more accurate and less controversial than the combined claim that most of the 300,000 are Pomaks (WP:OR as well) and that Pomaks are not classified as Bulgarians. I am aware that neither solution is perfect, but I think my wording is better, safer and clearer. — Toдor Boжinov — 14:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
The source is nowhere saying spoken by Bulgarian Turks, so we can not write that in these number there are Turks. Pensionero ( talk) 15:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
It saying all are Pomaks: "Language name - Bulgarian", "Language use - Spoken by Muslim Pomaks in Turkey and Greece. Also use Turkish [tur]." Pensionero ( talk) 15:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Pls consult the initial reason for the speedy deletion of this article. Having read the introduction section I remain baffled, who is this article about? There is already a separate article on Pomaks and Turks from Bulgaria.
In this article, there seems to be a disagreement between me, Kostja, Pensionero and Hittit on the interpretation of the following Ethnologue pages: [1] [2]. In particular, there seem to be differing opinions as to:
And also:
I'm resorting to RfC because Kostja and Hittit have pretty much stayed out of the talkpage (while reverting/editing nonetheless), and my discussion with Pensionero has been rather fruitless, as he seems to be refusing to acknowledge my points at all.
Thanks for any assistance, — Toдor Boжinov — 22:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
I totally agree with Kostja, first the Pomak language doesn't exist, the used source and usually the sources claim Pomak dialect of the Bulgarian, the Torbeshi are not included and so there is no arguing for Bulgarian-Macedonian dialect. About the Bulgarian Turks whether you are showing how many citizens of Turkey were born in Bulgaria here Ethnologue clearly says the "usage of the language" by these 300,000 in the country is by "Muslim Pomaks" and not stating other group [3]. Pomaks are usually considered as descedents of Bulgarians, that some Turkish authors claim ridicilous origins of the Pomaks doesn't make them disputive. Outside the discussion here a video for the Pomaks in Turkey, in their speech you can see the Pomak dialect is clear Bulgarian [4]. Pensionero ( talk) 15:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Here you sources saying the Pomak language doesn't exist as iit is Bulgarian [5] [6] [7] The list of sources goes on Pensionero ( talk) 16:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
It has almoust been one year since the above discussion and still this article stands on mostly Pomaks in Turkey. The term Pomak is used on equal basis in the opening section of the article as the term Bulgarian. Reference of Pomaks in Turkey needs to be removed and concentrated on Bulgarians in Turkey. There is already a Wikipedia article on Pomaks with reference of Pomaks in Turkey. It is also interesting to note why did the Pomaks flee Bulgaria, same as the Turks fleeing Bulgaria to escape persecution and forced Bulgarisation. Hittit ( talk) 12:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I have been asked to discuss on a matter concerning ethnicity by an user with no account who claims there is a consensus for something, as it is an IP it cannot be known who is he or whether he has discussed this subject himself.
1. Bulgarians are people that live in Bulgaria, in the neighbouring countries, and in the diaspora. They are Slavic people and are counted in censa as Bulgarian because they declare themselves Bulgarian. Some people local to both Macedonia and Serbia declare themselves Bulgarian whilst others similar may choose Macedonian or Serbian. Likewise some Slavic people from Bulgaria choose to identify as Macedonian.
2. Pomaks are Slavic Muslims that are part of their wider Slavic population and they are indigenous to Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo/Serbia if not more places. They too are counted as Pomaks no matter where they are from because they declare themselves Pomaks.
3. If one Slavic Muslim living in a village with 99 other Pomaks in Macedonia chooses to call himself Macedonian, and if this is the entire population of the village, then the demographic structure will be 99% Pomak and 1% Macedonian on all publications. Pomak is the name of an ethnicity equal to Macedonian, equal to Bulgarian, and not a subcategory of anybody. Likewise if a Slavic Muslim in Turkey chose to identify as Bulgarian, then he cannot be a Pomak, it is one or the other, just like Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks.
Therefore, if an indigenous person to Turkey speaks his regional Slavic and identifies as Pomak, he can only be as Bulgarian as the Pomaks in Kosovo. If anybody assumed that a Pomak in Macedonia is Bulgarian, then he does so on the pretext that he assumes all Macedonians themselves to be Bulgarian. It may indeed be the case that one century ago many people did identify as Bulgarian in present-day Macedonia but many of their family and neighbours also identified as Serb - there is nothing concrete about identity. Today the Slavic majority of Macedonia calls itself Macedonian and only a small percentage of the indigenous people calls themselves Bulgarian or Serb.
The idea that Bulgarian is some kind of pan-ethnic term that comes between Slavic and another set of subgroups including Pomak is one that may be common with people, but is not accepted, and not sourced. Therefore I ask that anonymous editors please discontinue with this endeavour to lay claim to the Pomak population of this planet. -- OJ ( TALK)
The academic consensus is that Pomaks descend from Bulgarians. There are claimed to be 6 million Albanians in Turkey of whom only 500,000 have Albanian identity. The same issue is interpreted differently than your point of view at Turkish people, for example Northern African populations such as Tunisians are described to be composed of 25% Turks. This includes partial origin and less than 1% of Tunisia population speaks Turkish. The figure of 300,000- 600,000 Pomaks excludes partial origin and all are Bulgarian speakers. So I think it would be fair if somebody find a higher figure. I disagree with the removal of the number of people of Bulgarian descent who do not have Bulgarian identity(Pomaks as agreed by academics), unless the same change is made at the other Balkan articles, Turks in somewhere and Albanians in somewhere, etc....-09:18, 9 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.201.109 ( talk)
Pomak is sometime regional sometime ethnic definition as Bosnian, person can call itself whatever wanting. Magyars call themselves after a tribe like Bulgarians call themselves after Bulgars, Finno Turkic tribes, French call themselves after Franks, a Germanic tribe, Russians call themselves after Rus' people, a Viking tribe. Even though some of them do not carry any DNA of the tribes who named their nation - Hungarians have less than 1% N haplogroup for example. Pomaks declare themselves Pomaks in Turkey not Bulgarians. I disagree with the removal of the Pomaks here as long as 6 million of so called Albanians without such identity are said to be in Turkey in the articles and millions of Northern Africans with probable far Turkish descent are said to be Turks. Propose to remove all these at WP:Dispute Resolution and I will support you. Turkey does not really ask for an ethnic group at census so everything is a guess. The latest census to do so was the 1965 census which recorded nearly the same figure of speakers of Pomak language and Albanian language, see Demographics of Turkey, so this would mean that we should state here that there are as many Pomaks as Albanians in Turkey who are said to be 6 million. Although I am sure that the 6 million figure is erroneous what you removed in this article gets the article so far from this number at Albanians, while the Pomak descent may be actually numerically more than the Albanians in Turkey. As for Turkified Albanian and Pomak, according to the figures Bulgarian is spoken by more people as a mother tongue in Turkey than Albanian is — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.201.129 ( talk) 12:52, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
If you want to change, you should make a global change in my opinion. One fifth of UK's population is considered Irish people due to an unverified newspapers' claim that so many people are of Irish descent, see the infobox in the article by yourself. I understand your claim, it is correct from a point of view but here is not the best place to discuss this, better post it somewhere, where it can affect all articles. 149.62.200.144 ( talk) 16:19, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
I have already previously suggested the deletion of this article as it has severe issues, main being confusing Pomak Muslims in Turkey with the Bulgarian mainly patriarchate community in Istanbul. In fact many Pomak Muslims have been either expelled from their homes in the Rhodopes or have escaped Bulgarian persecution during the periods after the Russo-Turkish War. Mixing these two communities in one article as Bulgarians in Turkey is far from NPOV Hittit ( talk) 18:40, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Sure. Outright deletion may not be altogether the best thing if indeed there are persons identifying as Bulgarian living in Turkey but the article needs to be purely about them and that in turn would mean major chunks removed from it. I intend (when I get some more time) to request dispute resolution and I hope you feel inclined to take part in the talks. -- OJ ( TALK)
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I have just modified 6 external links on Bulgarians in Turkey. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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