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Quote: "Until 1913 the majority of the Slav population of all three parts of the wider region of Macedonia had Bulgarian identity.[7] In 1912, the region of present-day Republic of Macedonia became a part of the Kingdom of Serbia, thus becoming Southern Serbia. During World War II, most regions of Macedonia were annexed by Bulgaria. All local Slavic-speekers were regarded and self-identified as Macedonian Bulgarians."
This is the worst lie I've read in a while. Macedonians are and always have identified themselves as Macedonians, and every neighboring country tried to change that, but, obviously, unsuccessfully. I demand this section (or the whole page) to be revised or deleted. Thank you. MakedekaM ( talk) 18:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The sites http://www.mni.bg/ and http://www.strumski.com/ provide more than enough evidence that the so called "Macedonians" were Bulgarians. -Jotaro97 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jotaro97 ( talk • contribs) 20:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
What the hell does this section ( VMRO - People's Party) stand for? VMRO-PP members are bulgarophiles (which means they declare themselves Bulgarian), but they "do not consider themselves as Bulgarians" (what???????????????), "they strongly declare their bulgarophilness" I can assure you that "bulgarophilness" is NOT even a word. So, meaning, if the members do not declare themselves Bulgarian, than the party is NOT Bulgarophile, and this section is pure stupidity it must be deleted, it's nonsense. Blok Glo (talk) 13:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I know we all have our statements, but Wikipedia isn't place to tell stories. The article material must include all points of view so it would be neutral, or accepted by everyone. On the section Yugoslavia there are some preety "brutal" statements that I don't think are accepted by the diverse social groups involved. Blok Glo (talk) 14:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
^ Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810855658, p. 287.
^ Who Are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 118.
^ Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996, Chris Kostov , Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 84.
^ Thinking About Yugoslavia: Scholarly Debates About the Yugoslav Breakup and the Wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, Sabrina P. Ramet, Cambridge University Press, 2005 ISBN 0521616905, p. 281.
^ Essence of political manipulation: emotion, institutions, & Greek foreign policy, Nikolaos Zahariadis, Peter Lang, 2005, ISBN 0820479039, p. 85.
^ Djokić, Dejan (2003). Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. pp. 122. ISBN 1-85065-663-0.
^ Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans, John Phillips, I.B.Tauris, 2004, ISBN 186064841X, p. 40.
^ Мичев, Д. Македонският въпрос и българо-югославските отношения 1944-1949 г. Университетско издателство "Свети Климент Охридски", София, 1994 г. стр. 80-82.
^ Македонизмът и съпротивата на Македония срещу него Коста Църнушанов, Университетско издателство "Свети Климент Охридски", София, 1992 г.; глава. 25. и гл. 26.
^ Angelov, Veselin. Macedonian Bloody Christmas, Galik Publishing House, Sofia 2003, ISBN 9548008777, pp. 179-201.
^ Новата национално-освободителна борба във Вардарска Македония 1944-1991 г. Димитър Гоцев, Македонски научен институт, София, 1998 г. гл. 3.
^ State Identities and the Homogenisation of Peoples, Heather Rae, Cambridge University Press, 2002, ISBN 052179708X, p. 227. Jingiby 14:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Please, do not introduce redundant and/or spam taqs into this article. Discuss your ideas at first on article's talk-page and describe then your suggestions. Afterwards wait for several days and if there is neither discussion nor reliable changes then add proposed by you tags. However, it is not acceptable just to put a lot of tags without any discussion. Dispute templates are used to alert other editors that work is needed on a certain article. They should normally not be used without a clear description from the applying editor of the rationale, preferably presented in a numbered list form on the article's talk page, in a section which includes the name of the template that was applied. As these items are dealt with, it is suggested each line be struck through. Some guidance should be given by the posting editor as to what action will resolve the matter when using section and article (page) tagging templates.
It is preferable that in-line templates be applied to content that is being objected to on bias or fact grounds. Inline templates are preferred because they can be attached directly to disputed sentences. Section templates follow next in preference to tagging a whole article. Many editors consider use of any banner template in an article a serious measure of last resort, and would prefer other measures be exhausted before such detractions from the project be used. If one must be used, please make a thorough note listing deficiencies or items being disputed in bulleted or numbered paragraph format under a clear notice section heading on the article's talk page.
Please remember to use these appropriately, and use the most specific messages you can find for the situation. Jingiby ( talk) 18:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
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I'd like to make this point with caution, as a Bulgarian originating from within Bulgaria's borders, and one predisposed to our country's standpoint on Macedonia's population. This article is called "Bulgarians in North Macedonia" and the opener of the article states that this refers to "ethnic Bulgarians" in Macedonia (forgive my shorthand on name). We know that these past years, people from Macedonia have acquired Bulgarian documentation and have either used this to relocate and find work mainly in the Alps countries, or remain in their homeland until such time they decide to move on. However, such people do not qualify as "Bulgarians in Macedonia" except for if they declare Bulgarian ethnicity as so much of the population did pre-Yugoslavia (ditto in Greece at that time). I feel inclined to remove the citizen 60k figure removed from the infobox and incorporate it into the article if it's not there somewhere. -- Edin balgarin ( talk) 17:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
This is primarly for VMORO, who has reverted my edits twice ( 1 and 2, despite me giving reasons here, including offering to give sources, which the user still has not requested). The user has been reverting from this version to this version.There are stark contrasts, and I'll go over every edit chronologically:
1. Removal of the Council of Europe statement - this one I do agree is a partial oversight on my behalf, as the offcial report is yet to be published, and this is information from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
2. The introduction into the subcategory (i.e There has been a wave of hate-crime motivated attacks on Bulgarian cultural clubs in North Macedonia since the beginning of 2022., not only is it an NPOV violation, it's not sourced and clearly wants to push the reader towards a certain (false) POV).
3. The addition of the 7th February 2022 incident in Bitola regarding the "Vancho Mihaylov" club there - this has been proven to have no ethnic connotations, but rather it was a family feud, confirmed by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the official investigation. [ 1] [ 2].
4. Three constatation in general - converting sources from their proper format to an inproper format. various things related to WP:NOTEVERYTHING; false constatations without any sources to lead the reader towards a certain (false) POV.
5. Addition of a statement which is not only NPOV, but not RS sourced (even Local_hero stated it was an NPOV violation).
6. Removal of proper romanization of the name - I have no idea why this was done, and reversed to the incorrect "Lyupco" (neither Macedonian or Bulgarian romanize names like that).
7. The case of Ljupčo Georgievski - the source that the user has presented is some random Bulgarian news website which reports what BGNES reported, which is acknowledged in the source itself. The sources which I have presented are quite popular and watched news agencies (not just websites) in N.Macedonia, which refute the claims by Bulgarian media that Georgievski was charged with anything (the refuting is done by the General Attorney of the region). Instead, he was called to an interrogation on the basis that he has spread xenophobia and/or racism. Come to think of it, this has no place in this subcategory of the article.
8. Pendikov's case - that part starts with an unsourced constatation which pushes the reader towards a certain direction and WP:NOTEVERYTHING violations (how are his injuries relevant?). Also this revert uses significantly dated information, as many of the things which are described in present tense have already happened and concluded.
Honestly I hope this is just a mindless, senseless revert, as some of the things (like point 4, point 6 and point 8.1 for example) I've addressed are completly unresonable and absurd. I suggest we go back to this version, with some tweaks regarding the Council of Europe statement (i.e the removal of it until/if it's made official) and the case of Georgievski (point 7, i.e removing it as it is not an assault in the slightest).
I'd also like to add the activity of Fifth_Root (and I presume his IP: 78.154.13.91) which not only are their additions NPOV violations and not properly sourced, but they have been reverted by two uninvolved editors (i.e Marleeashton and Pepperbeast)
EDIT: I have decided to be WP:BOLD and tweak the article per the things I brought up above.
EDIT 2 Jingiby, the reason why I deleted the statement about the motive of Pendikov's attack can be seen here - I'll reiterate, the entire subsection is called "Ethnically motivated attacks", so I fail to see a reason to include the motive, since it's already obvious from the title. I also fail to see how it's vandalism.
Best regards to all, Kluche ( talk) 08:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
References
As the section "Historical connection with World War II" has been disputed for almost a month, I've taken the initiative to open up a discussion about it. Currently, the section is flagged as a possible WP:OFFTOPIC violation, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Furthermore I'd like to cite a few more policies/essays which this section violates in my opinion: WP:NOTEVERYTHING, WP:ROC, WP:NPOV, WP:OOS, WP:NOTESSAY and possibly MOS:MAC. I think it is clear that the section needs to be completly removed. I'd like to add that some of the things mentioned in this section are repetitions from what is mentioned above Hopefully this will be resolved. Kluche ( talk) 09:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
I have compared Kluche's editing policy in this article and in the article Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria:
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Quote: "Until 1913 the majority of the Slav population of all three parts of the wider region of Macedonia had Bulgarian identity.[7] In 1912, the region of present-day Republic of Macedonia became a part of the Kingdom of Serbia, thus becoming Southern Serbia. During World War II, most regions of Macedonia were annexed by Bulgaria. All local Slavic-speekers were regarded and self-identified as Macedonian Bulgarians."
This is the worst lie I've read in a while. Macedonians are and always have identified themselves as Macedonians, and every neighboring country tried to change that, but, obviously, unsuccessfully. I demand this section (or the whole page) to be revised or deleted. Thank you. MakedekaM ( talk) 18:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The sites http://www.mni.bg/ and http://www.strumski.com/ provide more than enough evidence that the so called "Macedonians" were Bulgarians. -Jotaro97 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jotaro97 ( talk • contribs) 20:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
What the hell does this section ( VMRO - People's Party) stand for? VMRO-PP members are bulgarophiles (which means they declare themselves Bulgarian), but they "do not consider themselves as Bulgarians" (what???????????????), "they strongly declare their bulgarophilness" I can assure you that "bulgarophilness" is NOT even a word. So, meaning, if the members do not declare themselves Bulgarian, than the party is NOT Bulgarophile, and this section is pure stupidity it must be deleted, it's nonsense. Blok Glo (talk) 13:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I know we all have our statements, but Wikipedia isn't place to tell stories. The article material must include all points of view so it would be neutral, or accepted by everyone. On the section Yugoslavia there are some preety "brutal" statements that I don't think are accepted by the diverse social groups involved. Blok Glo (talk) 14:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
^ Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810855658, p. 287.
^ Who Are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 118.
^ Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996, Chris Kostov , Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 84.
^ Thinking About Yugoslavia: Scholarly Debates About the Yugoslav Breakup and the Wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, Sabrina P. Ramet, Cambridge University Press, 2005 ISBN 0521616905, p. 281.
^ Essence of political manipulation: emotion, institutions, & Greek foreign policy, Nikolaos Zahariadis, Peter Lang, 2005, ISBN 0820479039, p. 85.
^ Djokić, Dejan (2003). Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. pp. 122. ISBN 1-85065-663-0.
^ Macedonia: Warlords and Rebels in the Balkans, John Phillips, I.B.Tauris, 2004, ISBN 186064841X, p. 40.
^ Мичев, Д. Македонският въпрос и българо-югославските отношения 1944-1949 г. Университетско издателство "Свети Климент Охридски", София, 1994 г. стр. 80-82.
^ Македонизмът и съпротивата на Македония срещу него Коста Църнушанов, Университетско издателство "Свети Климент Охридски", София, 1992 г.; глава. 25. и гл. 26.
^ Angelov, Veselin. Macedonian Bloody Christmas, Galik Publishing House, Sofia 2003, ISBN 9548008777, pp. 179-201.
^ Новата национално-освободителна борба във Вардарска Македония 1944-1991 г. Димитър Гоцев, Македонски научен институт, София, 1998 г. гл. 3.
^ State Identities and the Homogenisation of Peoples, Heather Rae, Cambridge University Press, 2002, ISBN 052179708X, p. 227. Jingiby 14:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Please, do not introduce redundant and/or spam taqs into this article. Discuss your ideas at first on article's talk-page and describe then your suggestions. Afterwards wait for several days and if there is neither discussion nor reliable changes then add proposed by you tags. However, it is not acceptable just to put a lot of tags without any discussion. Dispute templates are used to alert other editors that work is needed on a certain article. They should normally not be used without a clear description from the applying editor of the rationale, preferably presented in a numbered list form on the article's talk page, in a section which includes the name of the template that was applied. As these items are dealt with, it is suggested each line be struck through. Some guidance should be given by the posting editor as to what action will resolve the matter when using section and article (page) tagging templates.
It is preferable that in-line templates be applied to content that is being objected to on bias or fact grounds. Inline templates are preferred because they can be attached directly to disputed sentences. Section templates follow next in preference to tagging a whole article. Many editors consider use of any banner template in an article a serious measure of last resort, and would prefer other measures be exhausted before such detractions from the project be used. If one must be used, please make a thorough note listing deficiencies or items being disputed in bulleted or numbered paragraph format under a clear notice section heading on the article's talk page.
Please remember to use these appropriately, and use the most specific messages you can find for the situation. Jingiby ( talk) 18:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:58, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to make this point with caution, as a Bulgarian originating from within Bulgaria's borders, and one predisposed to our country's standpoint on Macedonia's population. This article is called "Bulgarians in North Macedonia" and the opener of the article states that this refers to "ethnic Bulgarians" in Macedonia (forgive my shorthand on name). We know that these past years, people from Macedonia have acquired Bulgarian documentation and have either used this to relocate and find work mainly in the Alps countries, or remain in their homeland until such time they decide to move on. However, such people do not qualify as "Bulgarians in Macedonia" except for if they declare Bulgarian ethnicity as so much of the population did pre-Yugoslavia (ditto in Greece at that time). I feel inclined to remove the citizen 60k figure removed from the infobox and incorporate it into the article if it's not there somewhere. -- Edin balgarin ( talk) 17:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
This is primarly for VMORO, who has reverted my edits twice ( 1 and 2, despite me giving reasons here, including offering to give sources, which the user still has not requested). The user has been reverting from this version to this version.There are stark contrasts, and I'll go over every edit chronologically:
1. Removal of the Council of Europe statement - this one I do agree is a partial oversight on my behalf, as the offcial report is yet to be published, and this is information from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
2. The introduction into the subcategory (i.e There has been a wave of hate-crime motivated attacks on Bulgarian cultural clubs in North Macedonia since the beginning of 2022., not only is it an NPOV violation, it's not sourced and clearly wants to push the reader towards a certain (false) POV).
3. The addition of the 7th February 2022 incident in Bitola regarding the "Vancho Mihaylov" club there - this has been proven to have no ethnic connotations, but rather it was a family feud, confirmed by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the official investigation. [ 1] [ 2].
4. Three constatation in general - converting sources from their proper format to an inproper format. various things related to WP:NOTEVERYTHING; false constatations without any sources to lead the reader towards a certain (false) POV.
5. Addition of a statement which is not only NPOV, but not RS sourced (even Local_hero stated it was an NPOV violation).
6. Removal of proper romanization of the name - I have no idea why this was done, and reversed to the incorrect "Lyupco" (neither Macedonian or Bulgarian romanize names like that).
7. The case of Ljupčo Georgievski - the source that the user has presented is some random Bulgarian news website which reports what BGNES reported, which is acknowledged in the source itself. The sources which I have presented are quite popular and watched news agencies (not just websites) in N.Macedonia, which refute the claims by Bulgarian media that Georgievski was charged with anything (the refuting is done by the General Attorney of the region). Instead, he was called to an interrogation on the basis that he has spread xenophobia and/or racism. Come to think of it, this has no place in this subcategory of the article.
8. Pendikov's case - that part starts with an unsourced constatation which pushes the reader towards a certain direction and WP:NOTEVERYTHING violations (how are his injuries relevant?). Also this revert uses significantly dated information, as many of the things which are described in present tense have already happened and concluded.
Honestly I hope this is just a mindless, senseless revert, as some of the things (like point 4, point 6 and point 8.1 for example) I've addressed are completly unresonable and absurd. I suggest we go back to this version, with some tweaks regarding the Council of Europe statement (i.e the removal of it until/if it's made official) and the case of Georgievski (point 7, i.e removing it as it is not an assault in the slightest).
I'd also like to add the activity of Fifth_Root (and I presume his IP: 78.154.13.91) which not only are their additions NPOV violations and not properly sourced, but they have been reverted by two uninvolved editors (i.e Marleeashton and Pepperbeast)
EDIT: I have decided to be WP:BOLD and tweak the article per the things I brought up above.
EDIT 2 Jingiby, the reason why I deleted the statement about the motive of Pendikov's attack can be seen here - I'll reiterate, the entire subsection is called "Ethnically motivated attacks", so I fail to see a reason to include the motive, since it's already obvious from the title. I also fail to see how it's vandalism.
Best regards to all, Kluche ( talk) 08:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
References
As the section "Historical connection with World War II" has been disputed for almost a month, I've taken the initiative to open up a discussion about it. Currently, the section is flagged as a possible WP:OFFTOPIC violation, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Furthermore I'd like to cite a few more policies/essays which this section violates in my opinion: WP:NOTEVERYTHING, WP:ROC, WP:NPOV, WP:OOS, WP:NOTESSAY and possibly MOS:MAC. I think it is clear that the section needs to be completly removed. I'd like to add that some of the things mentioned in this section are repetitions from what is mentioned above Hopefully this will be resolved. Kluche ( talk) 09:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
I have compared Kluche's editing policy in this article and in the article Ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria: