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Archive 1 |
The legitimacy of the Bujinkan is not in question. Someone should start wiki entries for the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and the Nihon Kobu organizations and other martial arts are not judged based on their membership into these organizations. Presenting the Bujinkans membership status into these organizations has nothing to do with the art, or the organization, or it's legitimacy. If you want this information to be present, add it to the history section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.180.126 ( talk) 01:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: 8 of the 9 ryu are easily checkable. There is the only 1 single ryu that is in question. Togakure Ryu is only dated back (for certain in terms of scrolls) to the late 1800s by toda. Toda wrote rank certificates for Takamatsu. Other documents were (claimed to be) destroyed in the war (same time the kuki documents were destroyed). There has been recent research effort to better date the ryu. In the future more should be known about it. Note also that the Gyokko Ryu is well known as being from the iga region of Japan. Jacob.D.Biamonte ( talk) 00:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
In the side box which presents all the basic data about Bujinkan it states Bujinkan is "koryu-derived". I think this wording makes a statement that 9 ryuhas Bujinkan is founded on are "koryu", but they are not: neither Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (Society for the Promotion of the Japanese Classical Martial Arts) nor Nihon Kobudo Kyokai (Japanese Classical Martial Arts Association) has verified any of Bujinkan's schools to be koryu. If the article states Bujinkan ryuha's are koryu, there should be some NPOV reference for that. Then there's also another point: what does that "koryu derived" mean anyway? It is quite basic that Japanese martial arts are classified either "koryu" (traditional martial art) or "gendai budo" (modern martial art). There really isn't something in-between. Judo is called gendai budo even though it has strong roots in koryu. Same goes with Aikido, for instance. I'm removing that koryu-derived and replacing it with "modern". Finerion 22:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Also in the same box the "Arts taught" section is shady. Individual ryuha's of Bujinkan aren't arts in the same sense that similar box is used in other martial arts pages, such as Kashima-Shinryu. The section should be rewritten to match with style it has been used on other Wikipedia-pages. Finerion 22:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Due to the disputed nature of the statement, lack of verifiability, and violation of neutral point of view policy, deleted "Although ranks can never be compared between different martial arts, it can safely be said that rank in the Bujinkan in general is handed out faster than in most other arts." Paleorthid 18:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Distilled: Paleorthid 23:28, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, in some of the weapon-based gendai budo (iaido, kendo, kyudo) people reach shodan rather quickly while in some karate and aikido styles a shodan is expected to take some ten years... rank is relative between styles. In Bujinkan, it is also relative within the style.
This observation of the extreme high ranks should IMO be explained, because this is one of the things that make many budo folks suspicious about the Bujinkan. Had I not known about it, I would have serious doubts about joining a dojo where the main teacher got his fifth dan in as many years as it took me to reach shodan in aikido. I can not see him as extreme in any way! Getting a dan rank every time you go to Japan and train also is pretty normal. No "three years between nidan and sandan" rule here.
Maybe it can be separated into two parts: one discussing the extreme high ranks and one that discusses the relativity of the grading system. The Bujinkan view on rank is so different from what people in general think of rank, probably that should be explained. I let this rest for a while now. Habj 08:54, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
" godan (a rank that often takes a lifetime to achieve in other arts)"
I don't see why this parenthetical statement is relevant or even of interest. Paleorthid 20:34, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is an interesting lesson in how to handle this kind of matters in Wikipedia, and I am grateful for all pointers to standards of all kinds. As my changes concerns both issues raised above, I don't know which heading to put it under and so I make a new one.
When you get asked to verify the statement that the sun goes up in the East, you get kind of miffled and want to reply - but please see for yourself! I feel the same way regarding ranks in the Bujinkan. I do not think there is a written source for the practise of green belts for men and red for women either - but it is common knowledge among anyone who has been in contact with the Bujinkan, as well as the multitude of exceptions. Many of martial arts articles here on Wikipedia contains loads of "facts" that might be true in a specific school, or style, or country. Indeed this is the problem with the "generally wellknown facts" - they might not apply to general situaions, but only in local environments.
I have changed the text concerning both comments above, and hope it is OK to remove the "disputed" tag. If not, please put it back (although the sentence that it labelled is gone). The point of mentioning the high ranks/high ranking rate in Bujinkan is that the art in itself, or specific dojos/teachers, are often seen as suspicious by other budo people because of the ridiculously high ranks. I removed the sentence about ranking speed in general, and chose to instead focus on the extreme high ranks. I have not yet heard anyone disputing this, but those who want a source can take a look at the teacher list in Swedish Shidoshi-kai http://www.bujinkan.nu/shidoshi-kai/ which lists 2 12th dans, one 9th dan and no less than 7 8th dans. This in an art that first came to Sweden in 1975. That these are an extreme abundance of high ranks is obvious to anyone who has been exposed to any kind of gendai budo. Let us compare with aikido, which has at least five times more practitioners (I am conservative here, as I am not sure about the numbers) and came to the country a decade earlier, where we have one 7th dan in Iwama Ryu, and 6th dan Aikikai - of which one is the same person that holds the 7th in Iwama Ryu.
If the current version can not be accepted by standard Wikipedia policy, then please remove what you see fit! I will keep that in mind when it comes to handling other martial arts articles. I can sacrifice this fact, if it gives me a tool to take care of some of the martial arts articles out there loaded with disputable "facts". Habj 09:52, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that ranks are not considered important in the Bujinkan and not much talked about. The crash comes when the Bujinkan system is viewed with "normal" budo eyes. "Rank inflation" is not an issue in the Bujinkan. Soke gives rank for whatever reason he wishes. It is when people with the notion that high rank fast implies bad budo meets the Bujinkan, that trouble occurrs. The Bujinkan system is simply different from anything else.
Btw, I do wish you had not removed the earlier part of the discussion here. Only by searching out your first remark in the history, I could see that you were probably thinking about kyu ranks while I was primarily thinking about higher ranks. Kyu ranks are IMO of very little importance in the big picture. Habj 11:40, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
eh... i wont bore all you people with long chats about the ranks because it hurt my eye to get this far... so i will simplify it sence i did my home work... from what i read and from what i learned fist hand... the rank system is as follows: White belt,No Kyu (pronounced as "Q")... then Green belt,9th Kyu to 1st Kyu... and then their is the first Black belt,Shodan... after first their is a list of diffrent dans each allowing the person to learn even more dagerous ninjutsu... their is also a "Patch" system that i learned about but i have yeat seen nor heard of it other than one sorce so i am not going by it... for better info check these links below...
http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/BujHomepage.htm
http://www.budosites.com/hmbd/index.cfm?
http://www.ninjutsu.com/home.shtml
and my dojo's site
http://www.freewebs.com/btsdcrestview/
i hope this helps and i hope that you guys will make it right... enjoy
zVc
Should we have links to individual dojos? This list could be incredibly long. IMHO it would be better to only link to hombu dojo and sites of general importance. Habj 10:00, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Added as third element of unarmed skills.
sources: [1] [2] Paleorthid 06:36, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I added several weapons to the list, namely bisento, kyoketsu shoge, bo and senban shuriken, kusari-fundo, kusarigama, yari and kamayari, jutte, and the kunai
also added a category for kyahan but can someone do shuko, ashuko, a teko plz?
of these pictures are needed for:
kamayari, jutte, kusarifundo, kyoketsu shoge, bisento, senban and bo shuriken.
If anyone can help it would be apprecited to have photos for these. also please put a real picture of senban shuriken up before the ninjers put a non-authentic picture up!
added pictures of kusari, shoge, kamayari, bisento, jutte and bo-shuriken from net
The external links section is turning into a link farm. Following up on my comment of April 29, 2006, here are my proposed changes to remove link spam (and clean out a one dead link --- Paleorthid 18:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The following links were removed because they were links to individual dojo, and constitute link spam. -- Paleorthid 18:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
What are all the Last Accessed dates for the External Links? why are they here? -- Storkk 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the elephant in the room is whether or not Bujinkan is a fabricated art. I understand that we need to be NPOV, but sometimes it's hard to know what to do with pages talking about people as "considered to be the last combat ninja." ( Toshitsugu_Takamatsu) Yes, it's in theory perfectly reasonable language - it is their opinion, and again in theory they're entitled to their opinion as much as the mainstream is - but from a "common sense" standpoint it's just odd. I might draw a comparison with some crackpot physics theories: I think it's accepted in Wikipedia to reflect that it runs counter to the mainstream.
I've had some contact with Bujinkan people, and frankly, I'm skeptical. Their bizarre belts, curious 15-dan ranking system, and apparent disconnection from the rest of the budo world make me wonder. Obviously, it's not the place of an encyclopedia to judge the merits of a martial art, but it's getting awkward treating them too neutrally. Does -anyone- have some information about this school that doesn't come from them? -- GenkiNeko 21:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
though I have only started Bujinkan not long ago I at lest have first had learning. the reason their is only 3 belts is to simplify it, there are ranks in between the belts: 9 kyus and 15 dans… as Stslavik stated the Bujinkan dose not host tournaments, due to its dangerous moves.
Bujinkan or Ninjutsu is not a fabricated martial art, though many want to claim it not a martial art due to its “Formless Technique” and lack of competition. The fact is many Military and Law Enforcements groups are taught Bujinkan over many other martial arts because of their adaptable hand-to-hand combat and diverse use of weapons.
In all Bujinkan is a honorable martial art used and trained by many all over the world. Though many not know about it. I myself wouldn’t change to another martial art for anything…
zVc 6/3/07
Please see below; "Reference by someone other than Bujinkan" for hopefully a little more validity of Bujinkan.
Warrior essence 04:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that the article Dakentaijutsu be merged into this one. The article is short, and does say much that isn't here, and this article could use a discussion of the components into which the description of dakentaijutsu could fit. -- Bejnar 20:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Does references from the Kuki Family count? Kuki Shinden Happō Bikenjutsu is supposedly Kukishin-ryū. This should be proved by http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic2_e.htm. There is reference that takamatsu was around the kuki family transcribing several scrolls at that time and could have learned the family martial arts. I will have to do more research on this site
also listed on http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic_e.htm are the documents that the kuki family has. There are several scrolls written by Takamatsu. many regarding martial arts and shugendo.
Myself, I would conclude from these scrolls that he transcribed for the kuki family, that he acquired the kukishin-ryu. Since Masaaki Hatsumi was Takamatsu's student, I also would think that Masaaki Hatsumi would be able to acquire this martial arts.
Warrior essence 19:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
This page mentioned here in the reference is called "The Secret Documents of the Kukis"
Warrior essence 20:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history07_e.htm confirms takamtsu learning kukishin-ryu
Warrior essence 20:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history07_e.htm states that takamatsu was a teacher of Kukishin Ryu under the family of kuki.
Warrior essence 21:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
It has become quite aparant that the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi being directly related to authentic Ninja History are unproven in Japan. He has never been able to prove his claims. The Koryu < http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html> states that Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan are not historic practitioners of Ninjutsu. The Koryu states it has seen the documents in question and that there is no proof that Masaaki Hatsumi has any Ninjutsu lineage. The Iga Ninja Museum in Japan < http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html> states under its FAQ section that there is only one legitimate person that has inherited authentic Ninjutsu (Jinichi Kawakami), and it's not Masaaki Hatsumi. Masaaki Hatsumi and his claims are not even mentioned and it is obvious they don't consider them relevant. Much of the confusion seems to stem from the belief that Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Toshitsugu Takamatsu, was recognized in Japan as having authentic Ninjutsu roots. This simply is not true. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried to prove he was connected to Ninjutsu but failed in proving this. Evidence of this unproven lineage can be seen by the Koryu and Iga Ninja Museum's unwillingnes to validate Toshitsugu Takamatsu's claims. If Toshitsuge Takamatsu claims were never proven in Japan, how can Masaaki Hatsumi claim to be teaching authentic Ninjutsu? Why do people keep insisting that his lineage is verified? It obviously is not. I think that the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and all other schools stemming from Masaaki Hatsumi should be listed under the "unverified origins section" of the Ninjutsu schools page. There is no proof whatsoever that any of these schools have direct ties to original Ninjutsu. Keita52 (talk) 17:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
So, to sum it up; the Koryu and the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum in Japan have both denounced Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to authentic Ninjutsu. Masaaki Hatsumi has never had his claim verified in Japan. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried but failed to have his claim to authentic Ninjutsu verified in Japan. Wal852 (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
As stated in "Rekishi Dokuhon" (History Magazine, 08/1960) Masaaki Hatsumi said he was Ueno Takashi's student at age 24, and until age 29 only sometimes wrote letters to Toshitsugu Takamatsu who was then Ueno Takashi's teacher. <Rekishi Dokuhon (History Magazine) 08/1960> Following this in the "Bugeicyo(11/1963)" Hatsumi states he only trains with Takamatsu once every three months on weekends. <Bugeicyo 11/1963> The "Bugeicyo (11/1963)" editor states that Masaaki Hatsumi's ideas and lineage are only his ideas and have no proof to support them <Bugeicyo 11/1963> In the more recent "Shinobino Sengokushi"(Heisei 08/2004) Hatsumi states he trained with Toshitsugu Takamatsu for 15years and became master of 9systems at age 27. <Shinobino Sengokushi> 08/2004> Toshitsugu Takamatsu died in 1972. This would make the year Masaaki Hatsumi started training with Toshitsugu Takamatsu 1957(and his dates and age don't match at all). This completely contradicts Masaaki Hatsumi's statements from the "Rekishi Dokuhon 08/1960" and the "Bugeicyo 11/1963." Furthermore, in the "Bugeicyo 11/1963" Hatsumi stated he only went to see Takamatsu once every three months for training by train only on the weekend (2days, leaving Friday night and getting home by Monday morning).......this would be impossible at this time (1963) because Toshitsugu Takamatsu was a restaurant owner who lived in Nara and Masaaki Hatsumi lived in Chiba....during that time there was no train that could cover the distance from Chiba to Nara in the time-frame stated.(Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)).
In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base. Anyone interested in the validity of his statements should do research by contacting these establishments:
Don't be surprised if they don't recognize Masaaki Hatsumi's name. Few Japanese do. (Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC))
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related (Japanese Documentary about Bujinkan & Hatsumi)
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
11:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems that Hatsumi has blown the amount of time he spent with Takamatsu way out of proportion. That is irrelevant anyway, because Takamatsu was never known to be related to Ninjutsu. He tried but his claims were rejected. The supposed "Ninjutsu" stemming from Takamatsu and Hatsumi is based soley on "their" words. In Japan they aren't believed. Their is absolutely no evidence to support their claims.(Hpsft1 (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Hpsft1 (
talk •
contribs)
It would seem that this discussion stems from the notion that expert sources, the academic historians so often referenced, have stated that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's claims have been proven false. In point of fact, every so-called historical expert cited has only given their respective opinion.
They are statements of opinion by so-called Japanese historians. However, none of these are statements of fact. As a result, none of the opinions either referenced or alleged can be used to support a factual position, either pro or con.
To date, I have yet to see any reference to an authentic academic historical analysis of the issue; all of the the so-called expert opinions (appeals to authority) I have read are from sources who are biased, having various conflicts of interest from an academic and ethical perspective.
Tangentially, perhaps one of the most salient points regarding the issue of historical verification is simply that history and the historical method are not considered empirical academic disciplines - history simply isn't a quantifiable science. In fact, it is still a matter of debate whether the historical method is a valid epistemology.
As a result, even if Dr. Hatsumi's scrolls are classified as primary or secondary sources, the whole process isn't empirical, quantifiable science and there is still the unanswered question regarding the validity of the historical method as an epistemology.
It is very important to note here that while a subject may not be historically verifiable via the historical method, that does not mean that it isn't factual. A good example of this is the Tlingit language. The Tlingit people do not have a system of writing - their language is only spoken and there are only approximately 400 fluent speakers currently. Moreover, much of the nuance and variation in the Tlingit language is known to have existed by the tribal elders, but is no longer spoken. The lineage is broken and documentation doesn't exist,so, do we take their word for it? Their entire culture is based on oral tradition, yet it isn't verifiable using the historical method. Did they simply make it up? According to the criteria employed by the historical method Tlingit Traditions may not have existed, invalidating an entire aboriginal cultures values.
Logically speaking, either Toshitsugu Takamatsu and/or Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi are the successive Soke of the Ryuha they claim in accordance with the supporting scrolls or it is all a work of fiction as some have alleged. As evidence, those that officially acknowledge the efficacy of Dr. Hatsumi's teachings are international in scope and include those with a serious professional interest and expertise in their respective professions, such as: the NSA, FBI, various law enforcement agencies, military commando units, intelligence agencies, etc. On the other hand, those that allege fraud appear to be individuals or organizations with a conflict of interest.
Moreover, with so many government agencies in the international world acknowledging that what Dr. Hatsumi teaches is effective and valuable to them means that it actually works the way one would expect it to according to the claimed lineage.
So, either Toshitsugu Takamatsu and/or Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi are the successive Soke of the Ryuha they claim or they are martial art geniuses to have fabricated not one, but nine ryuha, complete with histories, techniques, stories, etc. - and they actually work as if they had been battlefield tested.
Applying Occam's razor to this dichotomy, which is the simplest solution given the verifiable evidence?
What we do know currently is that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's teachings are effective and internationally endorsed by various governments and military organizations which utilize them professionally. The same cannot be said for those alleging fraud.-- AnIndomitableForce ( talk) 22:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
In Japan, Masaki Hatsumi carries an imperial seal. use of In-Ikhan Ninpo Ryu with Soke Masaki Hatsumi is like Americans using the Compartmentalized rules of Top Secret with Oliver North and Operation Yellow Fruit or The iran Contra Scandals. He recognized with in the Imperial Branch, and has several events or situations related to his art. Many official US Government Agencies as well as the Japanese equals have used him in official capacities as a ninpo instructor, including DOD, DIA, CIA, NSA, Navel SEALS, Marine Force Recon, Delta Detachments. When you deal with Japanese intelligence agencies and The Imperial branch, Masaki Hatsumi's claims actually are given some credit.-- I myself not only studies with Masaki Hatsumi for 20 plus years, every single day for hours on end growing up, but later as i worked in the intelligence industry, I had the opprotunity to investigate a lot of things. Being one of the few Americans invited by the Imperial family to Hiro Hita's funeral. I saw a lot of the fellow students i had grown up with also providing security at the funeral, in a very official manner. Getting to talk a little with the imperial family, with the help of Masaki Hatsumi, I was able to learn that they lend credit to Masaki Hatsumi's claims. 208.54.14.72 ( talk) 07:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd just like to add this The fourth edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten accept the Bujinkan ryuha in it's entirely and the BRD is one of the best sources for information out there, so saying there is no verified published source is wrong.
The Kakutogi no Rekishi printed in 1843 list's several of the Bujinkan ryuha as being very effective, please note that this text was printed before Takamatsu's birth, so unless Takamatsu alongside creating the bujinkan ryuha which has been endorsed and utilized internationally by various governments and military organisations was also able to time travel and thus go back in time and somehow create the groundwork for his fake school before his birth there is no way he could have fabricated the ryuha in question.
Third the document Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho, w states that Daisuke Nishina founded togakure ryu 800 years For several decades this was the only source claiming this, however recently Daisuke Nishina's existence and other details about him provided by the Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho was proven by Koyama Rantaro an independent 3rd party researcher who is unaffiliated to Bujinkan. How the Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho is able to provide this kind of accurate historical information if it is fake is beyond me.
Also the Zen Nippon Todo renmei have validated the authenticity of the Bujinkan which further lend's it much credence.
Plus it is incorrect to say that the Japanese regard Masaaki Hatsumi as a fraud, the Japanese Cultural Agency or the bunkacho has declared him to be a living national treasure of Japan for his extensive contribution to martial arts and a majority of his student are Japanese this would hardly be the case if they thought him to be a fraud
We should also take into note as why Takamatsu would create fake ryuha complete with documentation, a history of character and all the requisite trappings assuming first that he was somehow able to time travel and possessed clairvoyant abilties, first of all he was the undeniable heir of two very famous schools of martial arts the Kuki ryu and Gyoko ryu, and was a very famous martial artist at that time (respected and well known throughout China and Japan and a close personal friend of Jigaro Kano) second he never attempted to make money or obtain fame, he lived a simple life, ended up an ordained priest, when he died his neighbours were astonished to hear that the kind old man who passed away was in fact a very very famous martial artist and were surprised at the number of visitors and condolences pouring in. Does this sound like some kind of lying publicity seeking greedy fraud?
Also several people have cited the Iga museum as calling hatsumi a fraud, Well the Director of the Iga museum is a man known as Jinichi Kawakami who also claims to possess the only authentic ninjutsu lineage and is the head of the Banke Shinobinoden, however there is much less evidence in his support(as far as i can tell, only his word) than the bujinkan and it pretty much render's what it has to say about the bujinkans authenticity as a moot point since he isn't exactly what you'd call an unbiased source now is he?
It should also be considered that Masaaki Hatsumi publicly displays his scrolls once a year, anyone who wishes to come and see them is made welcome, however he does not permit them to be taken out of his sight, Those researchers who have actually gone there and seen the scrolls have found them to be authentic(Zen Nippon Todo Renmei), the Koryu societies require all claimants to come forward provide their information and documentation to the their board for a unspecified but usually long period of time for testing. Since Hatsumi has refused to let the scrolls out of his sight what the Koryu societies say is based on guesswork at best.
So in conclusion it can be said that the Bujinkan is 100% authentic, the only way for it being fake would be a bizarre convoluted conspiracy theory involving Takamatsu possessing psychic powers and the ability to time travel and him using his magical abilities to create the ryuha in question and provide them with documentation,but we don't even have a motive it would also include the involvement of a large number of researchers authors,writer's and historians over the course of over a century and a half who have been part of a mass conspiracy to protect the bujinkan for unknown reasons.-- Kalona Constantine ( talk) 17:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Dose anyone actually think that the Bujinkan should be described as a 'ninja' organisation as it seems to be one person from various IPs making the changes and they are being revered by everyone else. -- Nate1481( t/ c) 07:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
Please make sure to watch all the above videos before trying to revert, because after viewing these videos you will have all the proof and evidence you need that the Bujinkan, under Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, IS a NINJA organization.
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.) www.skhquest.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 11:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I am providing additional sources of information pertaining to the Ninja Stephen K. Hayes and his employment as Bodyguard to His Holiness, The Dalai Lama, please read the following article:
http://www.creationenginedesign.com/scrnshot29.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 12:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
BTW - if you actually READ the article you're trying to edit over there (SKH) you'd realize that his role as Bodu Guard to the Dalai Lama is ALREADY mentioned and referenced. Jikaku ( talk) 12:59, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
To User Jikaku: Please provide evidence showing that the Bujinkan is NOT a Ninja organization! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.179.120 ( talk) 13:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
To User Jikaku or anyone who disputes the legitimacy of the Bujinkan as a Ninja organization! Please watch the following videos for indisputable proof as these videos were produced by reliable sources such as CBS news and the BBC:
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
"It has become quite aparant that the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi being directly related to authentic Ninja History are unproven in Japan. He has never been able to prove his claims. The Koryu < http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html> states that Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan are not historic practitioners of Ninjutsu. The Koryu states it has seen the documents in question and that there is no proof that Masaaki Hatsumi has any Ninjutsu lineage."
and
"The Iga Ninja Museum in Japan < http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html> states under its FAQ section that there is only one legitimate person that has inherited authentic Ninjutsu (Jinichi Kawakami), and it's not Masaaki Hatsumi."
and
"So, to sum it up; the Koryu and the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum in Japan have both denounced Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to authentic Ninjutsu."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg
and
"In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base."
I mean seriously - is there ANYONE that takes Hatsumi seriously *outside* of his student/cash base? -- Jikaku ( talk) 14:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
*Masaaki Hatsumi has never been acknowledged by the Imperial family as being connected to an authentic, verifiable, Ninjutsu lineage. That never happend. He was given an award for spreading Japanese culture. That is fitting because he has brought many foreign tourists to Japan. That award has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. The Japanese government never verified or even looked into his claims. His claims have never been proven in Japan. This award has been twisted by many people and they misunderstand it. The Imperial family never stated his lineage was verified and authentic. He just got it for bringing many tourists into the country. His claims are not verified by any "real" historical groups in Japan. It's the exact opposite. They deny his claims.* Flxp821 ( talk) 02:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
~~YOU are absoulutely wrong! Masaaki Hatsumi was awarded the "International Culture Award" which is given for "Cultural Exchange." It says it right on his website < http://www.winjutsu.com/emperor-award.htm> You are twisting it and manipulating it ASSUMING that because he he got an award (doesn't matter what award to you obviously) that they did research into his Ninjutsu claims and back them. False. The award doesn't state his Ninjutsu is Authentic. It says nothing about the authenticity of his Ninjutsu. He got the award for boosting tourism to Japan! It's just a general award that has nothing to do with the historical accuracy of Ninjutsu. Mov398 ( talk) 15:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
~~People often say since he is "associated" with Ninjutsu that makes this award back his claims. That is totally false. Sure, he is known to teach martial arts.........he claims to teach various kinds from variuos sources........but the award never, ever said anything about Ninjutsu! It's a myth! He is acknowledged to teach martial arts but his Ninjutsu claims have never been studied or proven! This award proves absolutely nothing! Mov398 ( talk) 16:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
"Bujinkan Founder Honored by Japanese Government
Masaaki Hatsumi, founder and grandmaster of the Bujinkan Dojo, has been awarded the International Culture Award by the Japanese government. The award, the highest honor given for cultural exchange, was presented to Dr. Hatsumi by a member of the Imperial Household on November 22, 1999."
It just shows undeniably that the Japanese Government, including the Imperial Family (which IS a part of the Japanese Government), knew very well the outstanding contribution that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi made in spreading the art of Ninjutsu, which is an integral part of Japanese culture, around the world! If the Imperial Family of Japan did not respect Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, they would not have present the award to him themselves, they would have had a lower ranking member of the government give it to him. But clearly, the above article link, states that "a member of the Imperial Household" presented the award to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi!
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related (Japanese Documentary about Bujinkan & Hatsumi)
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
3.)
http://www.tokyo.to/stories/ninja/ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
11:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
16:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Please watch these videos fully for confirmation on the legitimacy of the Bujinkan Ninja organization:
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
16:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
--==##==--
To cut this short: I am in the Bujinkan since the end of the eighties. None of the well respected members considers himself a "ninja". Those who *DO* call themselves that are money and power mongers who only use the name to satisfy their greed. The ninja got officially cancelled in the late 19th century. We train "Ninjutsu" but that does *NOT* make us "Ninja". Kennin ( talk) 13:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I am providing a Japanese interview conducted on Masaaki Hatsumi for the Japanese Public, as Hatsumi Sensei is extremely well respected as Ninja Grandmaster in Japan, as well as a person of true Ninja lineage! Please watch the following interview and take notice that the Japanese TV hostess even states that "He (refering to Hatsumi) is the 43rd master of the Togakure School and a ninja in the modern era."
Watch this video for confirmation and undeniable proof that Masaaki Hatsumi calls himself a Ninja!
1.) http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
If you pay close attention to the NBC News report, it refers to Dr. Hatsumi specifically as "Ninja Master." And the BBC documentaries also refer to him as a Ninja. And if you look at the Japanese TV interview, even the Japanese Hostess states:
"He (refering to Hatsumi) is the 43rd master of the Togakure School and a ninja in the modern era." Watch this video for confirmation and undeniable proof that Masaaki Hatsumi calls himself a Ninja!
1.) http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
You and a few of your friends are the only people claiming that Dr. Hatsumi is not a Ninja, despite all of the evidence I have presented from reliable and reputable sources. But you have NOT provided any evidence showing that Dr. Hatsumi is NOT a Ninja and that the Bujinkan is NOT a Ninja organization. You want to make that claim but you have NO evidence whatsoever to support what you say. There can no compromise unless you present your evidence against Dr. Hatsumi and the Bujinkan and place it here on the Discussion page for all people to see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 10:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Your personal opinion "'real' ninja disapeared over a hundred years ago" has no evidence supporting it! While I respect your personal opinion we must see facts and evidence! You state your personal opinion that the "Bujinkan is not a Ninja organisation" and that "Hatsumi is not a modern ninja," but you have not provided any proof or evidence on the Discussion page showing this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 11:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Most importantly, the evidence we have provided come from independent reputable sources such as the BBC and CBS News and History Channel. Out of these three NOT one is in any way affiliated or associated with the Bujinkan Ninja Organization or Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, Ph.D.!! And that is also a FACT!
Please take a few minutes to watch the video evidence which comes from neutral, independent, reputable, and well respected sources such as the BBC and CBS News.
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
And in response to User Nate1481's personal opinion: "If he actually was a ninja, why was he letting people interview him revealing his identity?" Well, first of all, Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi and Stephen K. Hayes are NOT involved in assassination or top secret Black Operations or Special Operations as some of the other Ninjas. Which is why they don't mind the publicity. Numerous U.S. Navy SEALS like Frank Cucci and other Special Forces and SWAT Team Officers have written books and done TV interviews to publicize themselves! And why you ask? The answer is simply because they are either NOT involved, or no longer involved in any kind of covert killing, espionage, or Black Operation/ Special Operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 12:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Most people who train in Ninjutsu, would not describe themselves as Ninja - and regard the term largely as an anachronism. This is because Ninja implies not only a body of skills, but also a profession, and complex historical and political context which made being a Ninja a necessity - or at least a practicality - in Medieval Japan."
And just to provide additional evidence supporting my points, the United States Marine Corp have integrated some of the Ninja techniques from the Bujinkan into their curriculum to teach American Soldiers of the United States Marine Corp! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 12:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Please watch the video evidence to confirm that the Bujinkan IS a Ninja Organization and that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi IS a Ninja Master!
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
13:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
THIS IS ALL SO STUPID. FIRST OF ALL. NINJA IN JAPANESE MEANS SPY. THE C.I.A IN AMERICA OR THE O.S.S IN GREAT BRITAN ARE NINJA GROUPS. PERIOD. THE WHOLE MEANING OF THE WORD NINJA MEANS SPY. THE KANJI USED ACTUALLY MEANS SHINOBI WHICH TRANSLATES TO PERSEVERE OR TO ENDURE. THE LOWER ART IS CALLED NINJUTSU WHICH REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NINJA EXCEPT THE LETTERS OF NINJ. NIN CAN MEAN MAN JUST LIKE SAN OR JIN OR EVEN JA, OR IT CAN MEAN BODY LIKE TAI. JUTSU IS PHYSICAL EXERCISE OR MOVEMENT. NINJUTSU IS BODY MOVEMENT OR TAIJUTSU. USE USE TAIJUTSU MORE LIKE THE ACTUAL THING AND NINJUTSU AS A PARTICULAR APPLICATION OF AN ART FORM OF...
NEXT THERE IS FAR MORE PROOF THAT MASAKI HATSUMI IS CONSIDERED A NINJA MASTER THAN THERE IS PROOF THAT HE IS NOT. MOST CLAIMS DISPUTING MASAKI HATSUMI AS NOT BEING CONSIDERED A NINJA MASTER OR PART OF THE NINJA HISTORICAL LINEAGE, ARE JUST PEOPLE SAYING NO HE IS NOT. THE FEW VAILD STATEMENTS ABOUT HIM NOT BEING A NINJA MASTER COME FROM COMPETING ENTITIES, WHO BENEFIT FROM DISCLAIMING HIM. FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME HE HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED IN JAPAN AS BEING A MARTIAL ARTS MASTER AND FOR BEING A NINJA MASTER. IN THE 1980'S HE GAVE DEMONSTRATION AFTER DEMONSTRATION AT MARTIAL ARTS EVENTS AND WAS PUBLIC RECOGNIZED FOR SUCH AND RECOGNIZED FOR HIS ART OF NINPO. OF COURSE MOST NON JAPANESE PEOPLE DISPUTING HERE WOULD NEVER KNOW THIS NOT BEING IN JAPAN ITSELF.
NEXT NINPO IS A MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. PERIOD. THE CORE BELIF SYSTEM GOVERNING THE STYLE IS STUDY EVERYTHING. TAKE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND THROW THE REST AWAY. THEY DO NOT TEACH RIDGE FORMS KNOWN AS KATA, THEY TEACH ADAPTABLE POSTURES KNOWN AS KAMAE. THEY FOCUSE MORE ON THINKING BEHIND THE MOVEMENT. TRUST ME I HAVE EARNED AN 9TH DEGREE BLACK IN AIKDO. AS WELL AS EARNED ADVANCED DEGREES IN AKIBUDO, KENDO, KENPO, NORTHERN XIAOLIN, CHOY LI FUT, HUNG GAR, WU SHU RU, TAI CHI CHUNG AS WELL AS TAI CHI YING YANG, REI KAI, SHODAN, SHORIN JI, JUJUTSU, JITAJUTSU, JUI JITSU, YOGA, CAPOEIRA, KALARIPPAYATTU, LLAMA LLMA, DOP DOP AND BOXING. ALL OF WHICH I SAW IN NINPO. IASLO STUDIES NINPO UNDER MASAKI HATSUMI MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO. AND BEFORE HAYES WAS STUDYING IT, AS WELL AS STUDIES IT UNDER FRANK W DUX AND SENZO TANAKA. BUT THATS ANOTHER DEBATE ALTOGETHER.
THE ARGUEMENT ABOUT STEFAN K HAYES, RELATES TO THIS AREA SINCE THE DALI LLAMA OF TIBET CHOOSE HIM AS A BODY GUARD BECAUSE THE DALI LLAMA VIEWED MASAKI HATSUMI AS A NINJA MASTER AND STEFAN HAYES AS HIS STUDEN AND ALLOWED TO USE AND TEACH TOGEI KURE RYU/BUJINKAN NINPO.
NINJUTSU IS THE LOWER ART AND NINPO IS THE HIGHER ART.
MASAKI HATSUMI IS WIDELY KNOWN IN JAPAN, KOBE CITY AS WEALL AS NADO AND TOKYO. HE IS IN THE PHONE BOOK AS IS HIS SCHOOL. AND HE IS OFFICIALLY RECONISED BY THE IMPERIAL FAMILY. I KNOW I HAVE LIVED AND TRAVEL BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN AMERICAN AND JAPAN FOR ALMOST 50 YEARS NOW.
IN-IKHAN NINPO RYU. SHIDOSHI 208.54.14.112 ( talk) 08:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
trolled at wikipedia, shame on you. Anyhow, isn't this spam link? all the "references" I mean. About the claims of ninja organisation, well If I create a religioun and call myself a god, will my wikipedia article be "Peter calls himself god" or "Peter is god"? Even if I'm indeed god, if the rest of world think I'm not, I can only claim it. From my point of view bujinkan is much of a ninja as I as a guy who trains shooting an assassin. The defenition is not common. So please mantain the more common defenition, ninja is an defunct class of soldiers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.108.3.196 ( talk) 17:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been a disagreement on whether the Bujinkan is a ninja organisation or an organisation that teaches ninjutsu and the different between these. Specifically this relates to the description in the lead section Nate 14 81 12:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
16:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, you're just getting silly now. What's next? Jesus himself came down from heaven and awarded Hatsumi an official "Ninja Badge" and vowed that anyone who gainsays him is going to hell?
Is there anyone here other than this one anonymous user who can't even figure out how to sign his own posts that thinks this is an issue? -- Jikaku ( talk) 16:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Again this Jikaku is engaging in personal attacks against me rather than providing the evidence against the Bujinkan being a Ninja organization, because you know that the information I gave to you is correct and indisputable. There's nothing "silly" about mentioning the awards and honorary citations that have been given to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi Ph.D. But rather these awards and honorary citations simply provide additional justification to proving Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's legitimacy in his Ninja lineage. Again this is the last time I politely ask you, please refrain from personal attacks against me and if you disagree with the evidence and proof I have provided supporting the legitimacy of the Bujinkan Ninja organization, then you must provide proof and evidence that it is NOT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.179.120 ( talk) 17:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
And please watch these videos for indisputable confirmation that the Bujinkan IS a Ninja organization:
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
17:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Clueless. I watched your video clips - in fact, I caught these *entertainment* shows when they aired, too. Are they entertaining and fun to watch? Sure. Do they verify that the Bujinkan is a "Ninja Organization?" No, not at all, even a tiny little bit. The rest of your claims are also useless in this regard. -- Jikaku ( talk) 17:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
What is fact is a fact, but title of a Ninja is not necessarily bad, if that is the case then why would anyone take pride in calling themselves " a Navy SEAL, or SWAT Team officer" as they, like the Bujinkan Ninja, are all fully trained professionals capable of assassinations and stealth efficient killing of other human beings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.179.120 (talk)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
19:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay - so far we have one single person insisting on "Ninja Organization" and completely ignoring all evidence provided to the contrary (I predict a response from him to this comment denying any such evidence, as though the rest of this overly long page simply loaded with it doesn't really exist) - while all other editors weigh in with "NOT ninja organization." At what point do we decide enough's enough and be done with this? I don't see anyone changing anyone's mind here. His youtube "evidence" (it's UNDENIABLE!!!) isn't going to get any better, neither does he show signs of being open to differing opinion... -- Jikaku ( talk) 06:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
10:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
To provide further evidence supporting the legitimacy of the Bujinkan as true Ninja organization and disprove the personal opinion of User Jikaku who had previously stated that "In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base." I am providing a Japanese interview conducted on Masaaki Hatsumi for the Japanese Public, as Hatsumi Sensei is extremely well respected as Ninja Grandmaster in Japan, as well as a person of true Ninja lineage! Please watch the following interview and take notice that the Japanese TV hostess even states that "He (refering to Hatsumi) is the 43rd master of the Togakure School and a ninja in the modern era." This statement shows that even in a culturally conservative post WWII society, the Japanese public officially recognize Dr. Hatsumi as being a legitimate heir to the Togakure School as well as being a modern day Ninja, which sufficiently disproves some previous editor's statements, including the personal opinion of User RogueNinja about the Bujinkan that "They are not ninjas." But indeed they are, undeniably, modern day Ninjas! Please watch the videos below for confirmation!
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related (Japanese Documentary about Bujinkan & Hatsumi)
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
3.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
6.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
How about, instead of:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is an international organisation that describes itself as a ninja organisation.
we go with:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a self-described ninja organisation.
It removed the redundant/double "organization" - worth changing? -- Jikaku ( talk) 18:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Showing additionally, Dr. Hatsumi is recognized IN Japan as a legitimate Ninja Master. It seems as if this page is being edited either by uninformed non-ninjutsu practitioners who have no understanding of the Ninja or that it is being edited by some rival factions who want to compete with and downgrade the legitimacy of the Bujinkan by attacking Dr. Hatsumi! Please look at the evidence for INDISPUTABLE confirmation showing that Dr. Hatsumi is internationally recognized as a Ninja Master:
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
10:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know the facts of this case, but there is pretty obviously an edit war going on here. Why doesn't everyone refrain from editing these claims until the RfC has reached a conclusion? Soaringgoldeneagle ( talk) 10:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Please take a few minutes to watch the video evidence which comes from neutral, independent, reputable, and well respected sources such as the BBC and CBS News.
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
11:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
YES!!!! We have our "three more times" for the pasting of the youtube links! I knew we could do it! Now, if we want to be over-achievers, I say we shoot for two more full youtube link lists, and another three uses of "undeniable!" (with extra points if all caps or more than one exclamation point is used).
Seriously though - it's clear that there's editor consensus with the exception of one individual who has no interest in learning how wikipedia actually works, making any meaningful contribution to the articles - he just wants to enforce his own personal opinion - an opinion that even the Bujinkan doesn't seem to push. Since we're all in agreement, let's just fix the article, and if talk can't deal with it and reverts it again - we either follow through with blocking him, or lock the page. Otherwise this is going to go on forever as a meaningless back-and-forth. -- Jikaku ( talk) 15:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
No, there is no editor consensus! You have not provided any proof backing up your claims! I can have you blocked as well if you want to play immature childish games instead of resolving this issue in a civilized manner with scholarly reason and logic! I have been polite and attempted to reason with proof only to suffer repeated personal attacks by the uncivilized User Jikaku who refuses to reason and come to a suitable compromise! Majority means nothing on Wikipedia, only FACTS matter!! So if you got some good propositions, you present them in a civilised manner with evidence and then a final decision can only be made if the compromise is respectable and does NOT disrespect or discredit the Bujinkan or Dr. Hatsumi!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 07:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am proposing "The Bujinkan is an international organization that trains their students in the martial art and unconventional warfare tactics of the Ninja" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 07:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I made similar points ot JJL & Bradford above, also found a Bujinkan school who dispute the description of the buj as a ninja org.:
- "Most people who train in Ninjutsu, would not describe themselves as Ninja - and regard the term largely as an anachronism. This is because Ninja implies not only a body of skills, but also a profession, and complex historical and political context which made being a Ninja a necessity - or at least a practicality - in Medieval Japan."
Watch for confirmation about
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)</br
We will stay with the following compromise:
"The Bujinkan is an international organzation that trains their students in the martial art and unconventional warfare tactics of the Ninja" And this is FACT! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 09:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
"In Japanese history, a ninja (忍者 ,ninja?) is a warrior specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war. These include assassination, illusion, espionage, and various martial arts." That is the definition of Ninja straight from a wikipedia page. Link: [4] here you go guys. BigBoss_Alpha —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigBoss Alpha ( talk • contribs) 11:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I've protected this indefinitely per a request at WP:RFPP. Do not hestiate to contact me or relist it once all contentions have been ironed out. Cheers. WilliamH ( talk) 12:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I re-wrote the first paragraph of this article on the 27th August 2007.
It was originally:
The Bujinkan (Warrior Spirit Training Hall or House of the Divine Warrior), or more properly the Bujinkan Dōjō (武神館道場) is a martial arts organization. It is headed and operated by ' Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭 Hatsumi Masaaki), the current sōke. The headquarters (hombu dojo) of Bujinkan, the Bujinden, is in Noda just outside Tokyo.
I replaced it with:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a martial arts organization practicing the art commonly referred to as Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術). It is headed by the Sōke Dr Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭). Dr Hatsumi is the recognized lineage holder of the nine ryūha (see ancestral schools) transferred to him in the middle of the 20th Century by his teacher Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The Bujinkan is specifically known for its koshijutsu, koppojustu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, and happo hikenjutsu in addition to its higher elements of ninpō and ninjutsu.
It is currently:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is an international organisation for the martial art commonly referred to as Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術). It is headed by the Sōke, or grandmaster, Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭). The Bujinkan is particularly known for practising koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu).
It seems to me that a consensus has been in place for over 1 year as the intro blurb has not changed much in this time. I have been a member of the Bujinkan for more than 17 years. I don't feel the comments regarding Unconventional Warfare add anything to the article. To the user who keeps adding this: "Please I am begging you, leave the article as it has been for the last year, If you feel you want to add a section on the Bujinkan and Unconventional warfare containing factual info for the reader then please do, but not in the intro section. Please ensure you reference it if you do, as Wikipedia should only contain corroborated facts as is the case with all peer reviewed journal articles"
Regarding, locking this article and only allowing two people to administer it, I feel this is a dangerous path to go down unless you can prove that you are very senior members of the Bujinkan who train frequently at the Honbu dojo, and therefore are experts regarding matters of the Bujinkan.
I look forward to your comments on this matter.
Regards,
D.
I am not suggesting only senior members of Bujinkan can edit it. You are correct, I don't understand the lock. Is it locked now forever?
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.28.92.5 ( talk) 13:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I'm the admin who locked this article. It won't be protected forever, just until we reach a point where it won't be reverted back and forth. Also, let me just say I have nothing to do with Bujinkan - you might say I'm just the janitor who locks the doors if they need locking. I've glanced through past discussions and I get the impression that the tide is against the IP's "Unconventional Warfare" edits. I also note that said purporter of such material has been blocked for POV pushing. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I understand it. Would anyone care to elaborate, or correct me if necessary? Cheers. WilliamH ( talk) 16:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose we leave it as it is now, and if someone who knows about and wants to add a section on the historical warfare aspects within the Bujinkan (i.e., from the Amatsu Tatara etc) or special forces training etc, then they can either start a new section, or a new wikipedia page.
What do people think about this?
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.28.92.5 ( talk) 11:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Karl Friday is a well-respected Japanese Historian. He states, "It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the Bugei ryuha daijiten, Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games")..." (Source: (Friday, Karl Dr. "Re: Ninja and Ninjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List. May 19th, 1999.) Also, take a look at the webpage this information is on < http://www.mardb.com/ninjutsu/ninjutsu-and-koryu-bujutsu.html> It shows many problems with the lineage of Toshitsugu Takamatsu and Masaaki Hatsumi.
Most people in Japan that study this stuff seem to already know that Toshitsugu Takamatsu and Masaaki Hatsumi are not connected to "authentic Ninjutsu." In the above document it states Toshitsugu made up his Ninjutsu from childhood games he played. Thus, since Toshitsugu Takamatsu was Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan fall under this category. Aruku85 ( talk) 22:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
However it's also worth noting that the fourth edition of the bugei ryuha daijiten the BRD accepted the ninpo ryuha completely.
Various IPs are reverting to a version of the introduction that also removes several other edits. In my view that version is primarily promotional rather then informative, does anyone else have a view? -- Nate 14 81 08:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Referring to the changes discussed here as "POV vandalism" can't be helpful. JJL ( talk) 23:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
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One thing that might help is moving this article to be at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and redirecting this page about the org. to the page about the art. I think it'd be easier to write about the art first and the org. that governs it secondarily. For now I'll suggest the following:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is an international martial arts organization based in Japan and headed by Masaaki Hatsumi. It is best known for its claimed historical association with ninjutsu. The system taught by this group, called Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu, consists of nine separate martial arts traditions.
Maybe following that with a sentence about how a variety of weapons are taught in addition to empty hand work is reasonable, but that tends to invite accretion as people add other things that are also part of the art. JJL ( talk) 17:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think saying "It is best known for its claimed historical association with ninjutsu." is a political hot potato, and will carry on/create more warring. Also the bujinkan does not contain 9 seperate martial arts, it consists of 9 seperate martial lineages which now form one single art called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. So maybe this sentence should be removed completely. Also, what is wrong with the sentence: "The school is known for practising koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu)." These are the key historical forms practised within the Bujinkan, but are not seperate martial arts. Having them in the list provides upfront links to these wiki pages.
FYI The art and the governance are one and the same. This is a school that follows the system of one grandmaster who is the art and responsible for its governance. There are no officially recognised international bodies, so the Bujinkan does not follow the western model that is common for many arts. Thus it would be difficult to seperate out governance and detail about the art.
FYI2 my only agenda is to make this paragraph as accurate and concise as possible.
D —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 13:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
How about this:
Move the page to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as proposed by JJL, and then make the starting blurb say this:
Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術) is a Japanese martial art founded in the 20th century by Masaaki Hatsumi. This martial system consists of nine traditional martial schools (Ryūha) inherited by Masaaki Hatsumi from his teacher Toshitsugu Takamatsu, a man thought to be one of the last living ninja.
Or something similar??
D —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 15:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
My only problem with using "claimed" is it has negative connotations, and will likely be perceived by some as an attack, so could potentially lead to more warring. I think using “thought” is more neutral and not as strong as saying something like “he was one of the last living ninja”.
FYI there is a book called “Takamatsu Toshitsugu - The Last Shinobi” (shinobi is the old Japanese reading of the kanji for ninja. This is a biography of Takamatsu and Fujita Seiko – “the last Kōga-ninja”), although this does not necessary legitimise the comment. Whether people accept it or not, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu does contain ninpo in it’s densho so members of the Bujinkan will always want to see this in the blurb. So I included the comment “a man thought to be one of the last living ninja” to keep these people happy. We could remove it all together if it is going to be too political, but I think in the future people will want to add comments like this.
D —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 09:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are some links to substantiate the comment that Takamatsu Toshitsugu is thought to be one of the last living ninja (I appreciate they are not as solid as a publication in Science or Nature, but I suppose that is the problem with trying to substantiate claims for subjects like this):
Book called Takamatsu-Toshitsugu-The-Last-Shinobi: http://www.amazon.com/Takamatsu-Toshitsugu-The-Last-Shinobi/dp/B000KM74DO
DVD Rip of Masaaki Hatsumi's documentary about his teacher Takamatsu Toshitsugu: http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1498574bKz2WXjx
Here are some other links containing this comment:
http://www.magokoro-dojo.org/takamatsu.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mrdsouza/takamatsu.html
http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/toshitsugu-takamatsu.htm
How about this (concluding with a few references to substantiate the comment that Takamatsu is considered to be one of the last living Ninja):
Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術) is a Japanese martial art founded in the 20th century by Masaaki Hatsumi. This martial system consists of nine traditional martial schools ( Ryūha) inherited by Masaaki Hatsumi from his teacher Toshitsugu Takamatsu, a man considered to be one of the last living ninja. (References).
-- D ( talk) 19:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
note Unprotected for 1 day & the IP is back to its reverting, I have posted the link to this discussion on there talk page. -- Nate 14 81 09:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
With this still running is it worth requesting a long term semi-protection? -- Nate 14 81 12:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I have protected this article due to a significant amount of edit warring. The edit warring can be prevented by semi-protection, but that is not an implication that the IP editor is right or wrong or an endorsement of either position. Edit warring is harmful to articles whether right or wrong, and as a community we have a policy that disagreements get sorted out by discussion either here, or via other forms of dispute resolution. Please use those rather than edit warring -- both "sides".
Thanks. FT2 ( Talk | email) 21:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 10:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This is how it reads at the moment:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a martial arts organisation originating in Japan and headed by Masaaki Hatsumi, its Sōke (grandmaster). Bujinkan is a colloquially used abbreviation of the full name of the system, which is Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu. The school is known for practising such arts as koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu).
I would only make a simple alteration to:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a martial arts organisation originating in Japan and headed by Masaaki Hatsumi, its Sōke (grandmaster). "The Bujinkan" is a colloquially used abbreviation of the full name of the system, which is Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu. The school is known for practising koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu).
My reasoning:
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 14:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
More above-- Nate 14 81 08:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the sentence 'Furthermore, unlike other martial arts, the color has no relation to the actual kyu-level the practitioner holds.' As far as I am aware, wherever coloured belts are used for kyu grades, they represent an actual rank. The correspondence between colour and rank varies between dojos which use this format, as it is not something dictated or even suggested by the Bujinkan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by British ( talk • contribs) 10:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Hey...are you people sure it's a Ninja organization as stated in the 1st paragraph? It just sounds a bit odd, I thought its some sort of cultural organization. Haven't so called Ninja's and it's organizations not been abolished since the 1800s?
Northwolf56 ( talk) 15:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The legitimacy of the Bujinkan is not in question. Someone should start wiki entries for the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and the Nihon Kobu organizations and other martial arts are not judged based on their membership into these organizations. Presenting the Bujinkans membership status into these organizations has nothing to do with the art, or the organization, or it's legitimacy. If you want this information to be present, add it to the history section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.180.126 ( talk) 01:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: 8 of the 9 ryu are easily checkable. There is the only 1 single ryu that is in question. Togakure Ryu is only dated back (for certain in terms of scrolls) to the late 1800s by toda. Toda wrote rank certificates for Takamatsu. Other documents were (claimed to be) destroyed in the war (same time the kuki documents were destroyed). There has been recent research effort to better date the ryu. In the future more should be known about it. Note also that the Gyokko Ryu is well known as being from the iga region of Japan. Jacob.D.Biamonte ( talk) 00:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
In the side box which presents all the basic data about Bujinkan it states Bujinkan is "koryu-derived". I think this wording makes a statement that 9 ryuhas Bujinkan is founded on are "koryu", but they are not: neither Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (Society for the Promotion of the Japanese Classical Martial Arts) nor Nihon Kobudo Kyokai (Japanese Classical Martial Arts Association) has verified any of Bujinkan's schools to be koryu. If the article states Bujinkan ryuha's are koryu, there should be some NPOV reference for that. Then there's also another point: what does that "koryu derived" mean anyway? It is quite basic that Japanese martial arts are classified either "koryu" (traditional martial art) or "gendai budo" (modern martial art). There really isn't something in-between. Judo is called gendai budo even though it has strong roots in koryu. Same goes with Aikido, for instance. I'm removing that koryu-derived and replacing it with "modern". Finerion 22:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Also in the same box the "Arts taught" section is shady. Individual ryuha's of Bujinkan aren't arts in the same sense that similar box is used in other martial arts pages, such as Kashima-Shinryu. The section should be rewritten to match with style it has been used on other Wikipedia-pages. Finerion 22:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Due to the disputed nature of the statement, lack of verifiability, and violation of neutral point of view policy, deleted "Although ranks can never be compared between different martial arts, it can safely be said that rank in the Bujinkan in general is handed out faster than in most other arts." Paleorthid 18:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Distilled: Paleorthid 23:28, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, in some of the weapon-based gendai budo (iaido, kendo, kyudo) people reach shodan rather quickly while in some karate and aikido styles a shodan is expected to take some ten years... rank is relative between styles. In Bujinkan, it is also relative within the style.
This observation of the extreme high ranks should IMO be explained, because this is one of the things that make many budo folks suspicious about the Bujinkan. Had I not known about it, I would have serious doubts about joining a dojo where the main teacher got his fifth dan in as many years as it took me to reach shodan in aikido. I can not see him as extreme in any way! Getting a dan rank every time you go to Japan and train also is pretty normal. No "three years between nidan and sandan" rule here.
Maybe it can be separated into two parts: one discussing the extreme high ranks and one that discusses the relativity of the grading system. The Bujinkan view on rank is so different from what people in general think of rank, probably that should be explained. I let this rest for a while now. Habj 08:54, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
" godan (a rank that often takes a lifetime to achieve in other arts)"
I don't see why this parenthetical statement is relevant or even of interest. Paleorthid 20:34, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is an interesting lesson in how to handle this kind of matters in Wikipedia, and I am grateful for all pointers to standards of all kinds. As my changes concerns both issues raised above, I don't know which heading to put it under and so I make a new one.
When you get asked to verify the statement that the sun goes up in the East, you get kind of miffled and want to reply - but please see for yourself! I feel the same way regarding ranks in the Bujinkan. I do not think there is a written source for the practise of green belts for men and red for women either - but it is common knowledge among anyone who has been in contact with the Bujinkan, as well as the multitude of exceptions. Many of martial arts articles here on Wikipedia contains loads of "facts" that might be true in a specific school, or style, or country. Indeed this is the problem with the "generally wellknown facts" - they might not apply to general situaions, but only in local environments.
I have changed the text concerning both comments above, and hope it is OK to remove the "disputed" tag. If not, please put it back (although the sentence that it labelled is gone). The point of mentioning the high ranks/high ranking rate in Bujinkan is that the art in itself, or specific dojos/teachers, are often seen as suspicious by other budo people because of the ridiculously high ranks. I removed the sentence about ranking speed in general, and chose to instead focus on the extreme high ranks. I have not yet heard anyone disputing this, but those who want a source can take a look at the teacher list in Swedish Shidoshi-kai http://www.bujinkan.nu/shidoshi-kai/ which lists 2 12th dans, one 9th dan and no less than 7 8th dans. This in an art that first came to Sweden in 1975. That these are an extreme abundance of high ranks is obvious to anyone who has been exposed to any kind of gendai budo. Let us compare with aikido, which has at least five times more practitioners (I am conservative here, as I am not sure about the numbers) and came to the country a decade earlier, where we have one 7th dan in Iwama Ryu, and 6th dan Aikikai - of which one is the same person that holds the 7th in Iwama Ryu.
If the current version can not be accepted by standard Wikipedia policy, then please remove what you see fit! I will keep that in mind when it comes to handling other martial arts articles. I can sacrifice this fact, if it gives me a tool to take care of some of the martial arts articles out there loaded with disputable "facts". Habj 09:52, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree that ranks are not considered important in the Bujinkan and not much talked about. The crash comes when the Bujinkan system is viewed with "normal" budo eyes. "Rank inflation" is not an issue in the Bujinkan. Soke gives rank for whatever reason he wishes. It is when people with the notion that high rank fast implies bad budo meets the Bujinkan, that trouble occurrs. The Bujinkan system is simply different from anything else.
Btw, I do wish you had not removed the earlier part of the discussion here. Only by searching out your first remark in the history, I could see that you were probably thinking about kyu ranks while I was primarily thinking about higher ranks. Kyu ranks are IMO of very little importance in the big picture. Habj 11:40, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
eh... i wont bore all you people with long chats about the ranks because it hurt my eye to get this far... so i will simplify it sence i did my home work... from what i read and from what i learned fist hand... the rank system is as follows: White belt,No Kyu (pronounced as "Q")... then Green belt,9th Kyu to 1st Kyu... and then their is the first Black belt,Shodan... after first their is a list of diffrent dans each allowing the person to learn even more dagerous ninjutsu... their is also a "Patch" system that i learned about but i have yeat seen nor heard of it other than one sorce so i am not going by it... for better info check these links below...
http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/BujHomepage.htm
http://www.budosites.com/hmbd/index.cfm?
http://www.ninjutsu.com/home.shtml
and my dojo's site
http://www.freewebs.com/btsdcrestview/
i hope this helps and i hope that you guys will make it right... enjoy
zVc
Should we have links to individual dojos? This list could be incredibly long. IMHO it would be better to only link to hombu dojo and sites of general importance. Habj 10:00, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Added as third element of unarmed skills.
sources: [1] [2] Paleorthid 06:36, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I added several weapons to the list, namely bisento, kyoketsu shoge, bo and senban shuriken, kusari-fundo, kusarigama, yari and kamayari, jutte, and the kunai
also added a category for kyahan but can someone do shuko, ashuko, a teko plz?
of these pictures are needed for:
kamayari, jutte, kusarifundo, kyoketsu shoge, bisento, senban and bo shuriken.
If anyone can help it would be apprecited to have photos for these. also please put a real picture of senban shuriken up before the ninjers put a non-authentic picture up!
added pictures of kusari, shoge, kamayari, bisento, jutte and bo-shuriken from net
The external links section is turning into a link farm. Following up on my comment of April 29, 2006, here are my proposed changes to remove link spam (and clean out a one dead link --- Paleorthid 18:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The following links were removed because they were links to individual dojo, and constitute link spam. -- Paleorthid 18:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
What are all the Last Accessed dates for the External Links? why are they here? -- Storkk 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the elephant in the room is whether or not Bujinkan is a fabricated art. I understand that we need to be NPOV, but sometimes it's hard to know what to do with pages talking about people as "considered to be the last combat ninja." ( Toshitsugu_Takamatsu) Yes, it's in theory perfectly reasonable language - it is their opinion, and again in theory they're entitled to their opinion as much as the mainstream is - but from a "common sense" standpoint it's just odd. I might draw a comparison with some crackpot physics theories: I think it's accepted in Wikipedia to reflect that it runs counter to the mainstream.
I've had some contact with Bujinkan people, and frankly, I'm skeptical. Their bizarre belts, curious 15-dan ranking system, and apparent disconnection from the rest of the budo world make me wonder. Obviously, it's not the place of an encyclopedia to judge the merits of a martial art, but it's getting awkward treating them too neutrally. Does -anyone- have some information about this school that doesn't come from them? -- GenkiNeko 21:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
though I have only started Bujinkan not long ago I at lest have first had learning. the reason their is only 3 belts is to simplify it, there are ranks in between the belts: 9 kyus and 15 dans… as Stslavik stated the Bujinkan dose not host tournaments, due to its dangerous moves.
Bujinkan or Ninjutsu is not a fabricated martial art, though many want to claim it not a martial art due to its “Formless Technique” and lack of competition. The fact is many Military and Law Enforcements groups are taught Bujinkan over many other martial arts because of their adaptable hand-to-hand combat and diverse use of weapons.
In all Bujinkan is a honorable martial art used and trained by many all over the world. Though many not know about it. I myself wouldn’t change to another martial art for anything…
zVc 6/3/07
Please see below; "Reference by someone other than Bujinkan" for hopefully a little more validity of Bujinkan.
Warrior essence 04:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that the article Dakentaijutsu be merged into this one. The article is short, and does say much that isn't here, and this article could use a discussion of the components into which the description of dakentaijutsu could fit. -- Bejnar 20:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Does references from the Kuki Family count? Kuki Shinden Happō Bikenjutsu is supposedly Kukishin-ryū. This should be proved by http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic2_e.htm. There is reference that takamatsu was around the kuki family transcribing several scrolls at that time and could have learned the family martial arts. I will have to do more research on this site
also listed on http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/mystic_e.htm are the documents that the kuki family has. There are several scrolls written by Takamatsu. many regarding martial arts and shugendo.
Myself, I would conclude from these scrolls that he transcribed for the kuki family, that he acquired the kukishin-ryu. Since Masaaki Hatsumi was Takamatsu's student, I also would think that Masaaki Hatsumi would be able to acquire this martial arts.
Warrior essence 19:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
This page mentioned here in the reference is called "The Secret Documents of the Kukis"
Warrior essence 20:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history07_e.htm confirms takamtsu learning kukishin-ryu
Warrior essence 20:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history07_e.htm states that takamatsu was a teacher of Kukishin Ryu under the family of kuki.
Warrior essence 21:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
It has become quite aparant that the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi being directly related to authentic Ninja History are unproven in Japan. He has never been able to prove his claims. The Koryu < http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html> states that Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan are not historic practitioners of Ninjutsu. The Koryu states it has seen the documents in question and that there is no proof that Masaaki Hatsumi has any Ninjutsu lineage. The Iga Ninja Museum in Japan < http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html> states under its FAQ section that there is only one legitimate person that has inherited authentic Ninjutsu (Jinichi Kawakami), and it's not Masaaki Hatsumi. Masaaki Hatsumi and his claims are not even mentioned and it is obvious they don't consider them relevant. Much of the confusion seems to stem from the belief that Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Toshitsugu Takamatsu, was recognized in Japan as having authentic Ninjutsu roots. This simply is not true. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried to prove he was connected to Ninjutsu but failed in proving this. Evidence of this unproven lineage can be seen by the Koryu and Iga Ninja Museum's unwillingnes to validate Toshitsugu Takamatsu's claims. If Toshitsuge Takamatsu claims were never proven in Japan, how can Masaaki Hatsumi claim to be teaching authentic Ninjutsu? Why do people keep insisting that his lineage is verified? It obviously is not. I think that the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and all other schools stemming from Masaaki Hatsumi should be listed under the "unverified origins section" of the Ninjutsu schools page. There is no proof whatsoever that any of these schools have direct ties to original Ninjutsu. Keita52 (talk) 17:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
So, to sum it up; the Koryu and the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum in Japan have both denounced Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to authentic Ninjutsu. Masaaki Hatsumi has never had his claim verified in Japan. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried but failed to have his claim to authentic Ninjutsu verified in Japan. Wal852 (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
As stated in "Rekishi Dokuhon" (History Magazine, 08/1960) Masaaki Hatsumi said he was Ueno Takashi's student at age 24, and until age 29 only sometimes wrote letters to Toshitsugu Takamatsu who was then Ueno Takashi's teacher. <Rekishi Dokuhon (History Magazine) 08/1960> Following this in the "Bugeicyo(11/1963)" Hatsumi states he only trains with Takamatsu once every three months on weekends. <Bugeicyo 11/1963> The "Bugeicyo (11/1963)" editor states that Masaaki Hatsumi's ideas and lineage are only his ideas and have no proof to support them <Bugeicyo 11/1963> In the more recent "Shinobino Sengokushi"(Heisei 08/2004) Hatsumi states he trained with Toshitsugu Takamatsu for 15years and became master of 9systems at age 27. <Shinobino Sengokushi> 08/2004> Toshitsugu Takamatsu died in 1972. This would make the year Masaaki Hatsumi started training with Toshitsugu Takamatsu 1957(and his dates and age don't match at all). This completely contradicts Masaaki Hatsumi's statements from the "Rekishi Dokuhon 08/1960" and the "Bugeicyo 11/1963." Furthermore, in the "Bugeicyo 11/1963" Hatsumi stated he only went to see Takamatsu once every three months for training by train only on the weekend (2days, leaving Friday night and getting home by Monday morning).......this would be impossible at this time (1963) because Toshitsugu Takamatsu was a restaurant owner who lived in Nara and Masaaki Hatsumi lived in Chiba....during that time there was no train that could cover the distance from Chiba to Nara in the time-frame stated.(Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)).
In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base. Anyone interested in the validity of his statements should do research by contacting these establishments:
Don't be surprised if they don't recognize Masaaki Hatsumi's name. Few Japanese do. (Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC))
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related (Japanese Documentary about Bujinkan & Hatsumi)
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
11:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems that Hatsumi has blown the amount of time he spent with Takamatsu way out of proportion. That is irrelevant anyway, because Takamatsu was never known to be related to Ninjutsu. He tried but his claims were rejected. The supposed "Ninjutsu" stemming from Takamatsu and Hatsumi is based soley on "their" words. In Japan they aren't believed. Their is absolutely no evidence to support their claims.(Hpsft1 (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Hpsft1 (
talk •
contribs)
It would seem that this discussion stems from the notion that expert sources, the academic historians so often referenced, have stated that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's claims have been proven false. In point of fact, every so-called historical expert cited has only given their respective opinion.
They are statements of opinion by so-called Japanese historians. However, none of these are statements of fact. As a result, none of the opinions either referenced or alleged can be used to support a factual position, either pro or con.
To date, I have yet to see any reference to an authentic academic historical analysis of the issue; all of the the so-called expert opinions (appeals to authority) I have read are from sources who are biased, having various conflicts of interest from an academic and ethical perspective.
Tangentially, perhaps one of the most salient points regarding the issue of historical verification is simply that history and the historical method are not considered empirical academic disciplines - history simply isn't a quantifiable science. In fact, it is still a matter of debate whether the historical method is a valid epistemology.
As a result, even if Dr. Hatsumi's scrolls are classified as primary or secondary sources, the whole process isn't empirical, quantifiable science and there is still the unanswered question regarding the validity of the historical method as an epistemology.
It is very important to note here that while a subject may not be historically verifiable via the historical method, that does not mean that it isn't factual. A good example of this is the Tlingit language. The Tlingit people do not have a system of writing - their language is only spoken and there are only approximately 400 fluent speakers currently. Moreover, much of the nuance and variation in the Tlingit language is known to have existed by the tribal elders, but is no longer spoken. The lineage is broken and documentation doesn't exist,so, do we take their word for it? Their entire culture is based on oral tradition, yet it isn't verifiable using the historical method. Did they simply make it up? According to the criteria employed by the historical method Tlingit Traditions may not have existed, invalidating an entire aboriginal cultures values.
Logically speaking, either Toshitsugu Takamatsu and/or Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi are the successive Soke of the Ryuha they claim in accordance with the supporting scrolls or it is all a work of fiction as some have alleged. As evidence, those that officially acknowledge the efficacy of Dr. Hatsumi's teachings are international in scope and include those with a serious professional interest and expertise in their respective professions, such as: the NSA, FBI, various law enforcement agencies, military commando units, intelligence agencies, etc. On the other hand, those that allege fraud appear to be individuals or organizations with a conflict of interest.
Moreover, with so many government agencies in the international world acknowledging that what Dr. Hatsumi teaches is effective and valuable to them means that it actually works the way one would expect it to according to the claimed lineage.
So, either Toshitsugu Takamatsu and/or Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi are the successive Soke of the Ryuha they claim or they are martial art geniuses to have fabricated not one, but nine ryuha, complete with histories, techniques, stories, etc. - and they actually work as if they had been battlefield tested.
Applying Occam's razor to this dichotomy, which is the simplest solution given the verifiable evidence?
What we do know currently is that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's teachings are effective and internationally endorsed by various governments and military organizations which utilize them professionally. The same cannot be said for those alleging fraud.-- AnIndomitableForce ( talk) 22:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
In Japan, Masaki Hatsumi carries an imperial seal. use of In-Ikhan Ninpo Ryu with Soke Masaki Hatsumi is like Americans using the Compartmentalized rules of Top Secret with Oliver North and Operation Yellow Fruit or The iran Contra Scandals. He recognized with in the Imperial Branch, and has several events or situations related to his art. Many official US Government Agencies as well as the Japanese equals have used him in official capacities as a ninpo instructor, including DOD, DIA, CIA, NSA, Navel SEALS, Marine Force Recon, Delta Detachments. When you deal with Japanese intelligence agencies and The Imperial branch, Masaki Hatsumi's claims actually are given some credit.-- I myself not only studies with Masaki Hatsumi for 20 plus years, every single day for hours on end growing up, but later as i worked in the intelligence industry, I had the opprotunity to investigate a lot of things. Being one of the few Americans invited by the Imperial family to Hiro Hita's funeral. I saw a lot of the fellow students i had grown up with also providing security at the funeral, in a very official manner. Getting to talk a little with the imperial family, with the help of Masaki Hatsumi, I was able to learn that they lend credit to Masaki Hatsumi's claims. 208.54.14.72 ( talk) 07:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I'd just like to add this The fourth edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten accept the Bujinkan ryuha in it's entirely and the BRD is one of the best sources for information out there, so saying there is no verified published source is wrong.
The Kakutogi no Rekishi printed in 1843 list's several of the Bujinkan ryuha as being very effective, please note that this text was printed before Takamatsu's birth, so unless Takamatsu alongside creating the bujinkan ryuha which has been endorsed and utilized internationally by various governments and military organisations was also able to time travel and thus go back in time and somehow create the groundwork for his fake school before his birth there is no way he could have fabricated the ryuha in question.
Third the document Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho, w states that Daisuke Nishina founded togakure ryu 800 years For several decades this was the only source claiming this, however recently Daisuke Nishina's existence and other details about him provided by the Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho was proven by Koyama Rantaro an independent 3rd party researcher who is unaffiliated to Bujinkan. How the Togakure ryu Ninjutsu Hidensho is able to provide this kind of accurate historical information if it is fake is beyond me.
Also the Zen Nippon Todo renmei have validated the authenticity of the Bujinkan which further lend's it much credence.
Plus it is incorrect to say that the Japanese regard Masaaki Hatsumi as a fraud, the Japanese Cultural Agency or the bunkacho has declared him to be a living national treasure of Japan for his extensive contribution to martial arts and a majority of his student are Japanese this would hardly be the case if they thought him to be a fraud
We should also take into note as why Takamatsu would create fake ryuha complete with documentation, a history of character and all the requisite trappings assuming first that he was somehow able to time travel and possessed clairvoyant abilties, first of all he was the undeniable heir of two very famous schools of martial arts the Kuki ryu and Gyoko ryu, and was a very famous martial artist at that time (respected and well known throughout China and Japan and a close personal friend of Jigaro Kano) second he never attempted to make money or obtain fame, he lived a simple life, ended up an ordained priest, when he died his neighbours were astonished to hear that the kind old man who passed away was in fact a very very famous martial artist and were surprised at the number of visitors and condolences pouring in. Does this sound like some kind of lying publicity seeking greedy fraud?
Also several people have cited the Iga museum as calling hatsumi a fraud, Well the Director of the Iga museum is a man known as Jinichi Kawakami who also claims to possess the only authentic ninjutsu lineage and is the head of the Banke Shinobinoden, however there is much less evidence in his support(as far as i can tell, only his word) than the bujinkan and it pretty much render's what it has to say about the bujinkans authenticity as a moot point since he isn't exactly what you'd call an unbiased source now is he?
It should also be considered that Masaaki Hatsumi publicly displays his scrolls once a year, anyone who wishes to come and see them is made welcome, however he does not permit them to be taken out of his sight, Those researchers who have actually gone there and seen the scrolls have found them to be authentic(Zen Nippon Todo Renmei), the Koryu societies require all claimants to come forward provide their information and documentation to the their board for a unspecified but usually long period of time for testing. Since Hatsumi has refused to let the scrolls out of his sight what the Koryu societies say is based on guesswork at best.
So in conclusion it can be said that the Bujinkan is 100% authentic, the only way for it being fake would be a bizarre convoluted conspiracy theory involving Takamatsu possessing psychic powers and the ability to time travel and him using his magical abilities to create the ryuha in question and provide them with documentation,but we don't even have a motive it would also include the involvement of a large number of researchers authors,writer's and historians over the course of over a century and a half who have been part of a mass conspiracy to protect the bujinkan for unknown reasons.-- Kalona Constantine ( talk) 17:12, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Dose anyone actually think that the Bujinkan should be described as a 'ninja' organisation as it seems to be one person from various IPs making the changes and they are being revered by everyone else. -- Nate1481( t/ c) 07:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
Please make sure to watch all the above videos before trying to revert, because after viewing these videos you will have all the proof and evidence you need that the Bujinkan, under Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, IS a NINJA organization.
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.) www.skhquest.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 11:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I am providing additional sources of information pertaining to the Ninja Stephen K. Hayes and his employment as Bodyguard to His Holiness, The Dalai Lama, please read the following article:
http://www.creationenginedesign.com/scrnshot29.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 12:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
BTW - if you actually READ the article you're trying to edit over there (SKH) you'd realize that his role as Bodu Guard to the Dalai Lama is ALREADY mentioned and referenced. Jikaku ( talk) 12:59, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
To User Jikaku: Please provide evidence showing that the Bujinkan is NOT a Ninja organization! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.179.120 ( talk) 13:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
To User Jikaku or anyone who disputes the legitimacy of the Bujinkan as a Ninja organization! Please watch the following videos for indisputable proof as these videos were produced by reliable sources such as CBS news and the BBC:
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
"It has become quite aparant that the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi being directly related to authentic Ninja History are unproven in Japan. He has never been able to prove his claims. The Koryu < http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html> states that Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan are not historic practitioners of Ninjutsu. The Koryu states it has seen the documents in question and that there is no proof that Masaaki Hatsumi has any Ninjutsu lineage."
and
"The Iga Ninja Museum in Japan < http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html> states under its FAQ section that there is only one legitimate person that has inherited authentic Ninjutsu (Jinichi Kawakami), and it's not Masaaki Hatsumi."
and
"So, to sum it up; the Koryu and the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum in Japan have both denounced Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to authentic Ninjutsu."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg
and
"In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base."
I mean seriously - is there ANYONE that takes Hatsumi seriously *outside* of his student/cash base? -- Jikaku ( talk) 14:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
*Masaaki Hatsumi has never been acknowledged by the Imperial family as being connected to an authentic, verifiable, Ninjutsu lineage. That never happend. He was given an award for spreading Japanese culture. That is fitting because he has brought many foreign tourists to Japan. That award has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. The Japanese government never verified or even looked into his claims. His claims have never been proven in Japan. This award has been twisted by many people and they misunderstand it. The Imperial family never stated his lineage was verified and authentic. He just got it for bringing many tourists into the country. His claims are not verified by any "real" historical groups in Japan. It's the exact opposite. They deny his claims.* Flxp821 ( talk) 02:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
~~YOU are absoulutely wrong! Masaaki Hatsumi was awarded the "International Culture Award" which is given for "Cultural Exchange." It says it right on his website < http://www.winjutsu.com/emperor-award.htm> You are twisting it and manipulating it ASSUMING that because he he got an award (doesn't matter what award to you obviously) that they did research into his Ninjutsu claims and back them. False. The award doesn't state his Ninjutsu is Authentic. It says nothing about the authenticity of his Ninjutsu. He got the award for boosting tourism to Japan! It's just a general award that has nothing to do with the historical accuracy of Ninjutsu. Mov398 ( talk) 15:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
~~People often say since he is "associated" with Ninjutsu that makes this award back his claims. That is totally false. Sure, he is known to teach martial arts.........he claims to teach various kinds from variuos sources........but the award never, ever said anything about Ninjutsu! It's a myth! He is acknowledged to teach martial arts but his Ninjutsu claims have never been studied or proven! This award proves absolutely nothing! Mov398 ( talk) 16:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
"Bujinkan Founder Honored by Japanese Government
Masaaki Hatsumi, founder and grandmaster of the Bujinkan Dojo, has been awarded the International Culture Award by the Japanese government. The award, the highest honor given for cultural exchange, was presented to Dr. Hatsumi by a member of the Imperial Household on November 22, 1999."
It just shows undeniably that the Japanese Government, including the Imperial Family (which IS a part of the Japanese Government), knew very well the outstanding contribution that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi made in spreading the art of Ninjutsu, which is an integral part of Japanese culture, around the world! If the Imperial Family of Japan did not respect Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, they would not have present the award to him themselves, they would have had a lower ranking member of the government give it to him. But clearly, the above article link, states that "a member of the Imperial Household" presented the award to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi!
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related (Japanese Documentary about Bujinkan & Hatsumi)
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
3.)
http://www.tokyo.to/stories/ninja/ —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
11:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
16:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Please watch these videos fully for confirmation on the legitimacy of the Bujinkan Ninja organization:
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
16:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
--==##==--
To cut this short: I am in the Bujinkan since the end of the eighties. None of the well respected members considers himself a "ninja". Those who *DO* call themselves that are money and power mongers who only use the name to satisfy their greed. The ninja got officially cancelled in the late 19th century. We train "Ninjutsu" but that does *NOT* make us "Ninja". Kennin ( talk) 13:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I am providing a Japanese interview conducted on Masaaki Hatsumi for the Japanese Public, as Hatsumi Sensei is extremely well respected as Ninja Grandmaster in Japan, as well as a person of true Ninja lineage! Please watch the following interview and take notice that the Japanese TV hostess even states that "He (refering to Hatsumi) is the 43rd master of the Togakure School and a ninja in the modern era."
Watch this video for confirmation and undeniable proof that Masaaki Hatsumi calls himself a Ninja!
1.) http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
If you pay close attention to the NBC News report, it refers to Dr. Hatsumi specifically as "Ninja Master." And the BBC documentaries also refer to him as a Ninja. And if you look at the Japanese TV interview, even the Japanese Hostess states:
"He (refering to Hatsumi) is the 43rd master of the Togakure School and a ninja in the modern era." Watch this video for confirmation and undeniable proof that Masaaki Hatsumi calls himself a Ninja!
1.) http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
You and a few of your friends are the only people claiming that Dr. Hatsumi is not a Ninja, despite all of the evidence I have presented from reliable and reputable sources. But you have NOT provided any evidence showing that Dr. Hatsumi is NOT a Ninja and that the Bujinkan is NOT a Ninja organization. You want to make that claim but you have NO evidence whatsoever to support what you say. There can no compromise unless you present your evidence against Dr. Hatsumi and the Bujinkan and place it here on the Discussion page for all people to see. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 10:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Your personal opinion "'real' ninja disapeared over a hundred years ago" has no evidence supporting it! While I respect your personal opinion we must see facts and evidence! You state your personal opinion that the "Bujinkan is not a Ninja organisation" and that "Hatsumi is not a modern ninja," but you have not provided any proof or evidence on the Discussion page showing this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 11:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Most importantly, the evidence we have provided come from independent reputable sources such as the BBC and CBS News and History Channel. Out of these three NOT one is in any way affiliated or associated with the Bujinkan Ninja Organization or Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, Ph.D.!! And that is also a FACT!
Please take a few minutes to watch the video evidence which comes from neutral, independent, reputable, and well respected sources such as the BBC and CBS News.
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
And in response to User Nate1481's personal opinion: "If he actually was a ninja, why was he letting people interview him revealing his identity?" Well, first of all, Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi and Stephen K. Hayes are NOT involved in assassination or top secret Black Operations or Special Operations as some of the other Ninjas. Which is why they don't mind the publicity. Numerous U.S. Navy SEALS like Frank Cucci and other Special Forces and SWAT Team Officers have written books and done TV interviews to publicize themselves! And why you ask? The answer is simply because they are either NOT involved, or no longer involved in any kind of covert killing, espionage, or Black Operation/ Special Operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 12:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Most people who train in Ninjutsu, would not describe themselves as Ninja - and regard the term largely as an anachronism. This is because Ninja implies not only a body of skills, but also a profession, and complex historical and political context which made being a Ninja a necessity - or at least a practicality - in Medieval Japan."
And just to provide additional evidence supporting my points, the United States Marine Corp have integrated some of the Ninja techniques from the Bujinkan into their curriculum to teach American Soldiers of the United States Marine Corp! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 12:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Please watch the video evidence to confirm that the Bujinkan IS a Ninja Organization and that Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi IS a Ninja Master!
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
13:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
THIS IS ALL SO STUPID. FIRST OF ALL. NINJA IN JAPANESE MEANS SPY. THE C.I.A IN AMERICA OR THE O.S.S IN GREAT BRITAN ARE NINJA GROUPS. PERIOD. THE WHOLE MEANING OF THE WORD NINJA MEANS SPY. THE KANJI USED ACTUALLY MEANS SHINOBI WHICH TRANSLATES TO PERSEVERE OR TO ENDURE. THE LOWER ART IS CALLED NINJUTSU WHICH REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NINJA EXCEPT THE LETTERS OF NINJ. NIN CAN MEAN MAN JUST LIKE SAN OR JIN OR EVEN JA, OR IT CAN MEAN BODY LIKE TAI. JUTSU IS PHYSICAL EXERCISE OR MOVEMENT. NINJUTSU IS BODY MOVEMENT OR TAIJUTSU. USE USE TAIJUTSU MORE LIKE THE ACTUAL THING AND NINJUTSU AS A PARTICULAR APPLICATION OF AN ART FORM OF...
NEXT THERE IS FAR MORE PROOF THAT MASAKI HATSUMI IS CONSIDERED A NINJA MASTER THAN THERE IS PROOF THAT HE IS NOT. MOST CLAIMS DISPUTING MASAKI HATSUMI AS NOT BEING CONSIDERED A NINJA MASTER OR PART OF THE NINJA HISTORICAL LINEAGE, ARE JUST PEOPLE SAYING NO HE IS NOT. THE FEW VAILD STATEMENTS ABOUT HIM NOT BEING A NINJA MASTER COME FROM COMPETING ENTITIES, WHO BENEFIT FROM DISCLAIMING HIM. FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME HE HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED IN JAPAN AS BEING A MARTIAL ARTS MASTER AND FOR BEING A NINJA MASTER. IN THE 1980'S HE GAVE DEMONSTRATION AFTER DEMONSTRATION AT MARTIAL ARTS EVENTS AND WAS PUBLIC RECOGNIZED FOR SUCH AND RECOGNIZED FOR HIS ART OF NINPO. OF COURSE MOST NON JAPANESE PEOPLE DISPUTING HERE WOULD NEVER KNOW THIS NOT BEING IN JAPAN ITSELF.
NEXT NINPO IS A MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. PERIOD. THE CORE BELIF SYSTEM GOVERNING THE STYLE IS STUDY EVERYTHING. TAKE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND THROW THE REST AWAY. THEY DO NOT TEACH RIDGE FORMS KNOWN AS KATA, THEY TEACH ADAPTABLE POSTURES KNOWN AS KAMAE. THEY FOCUSE MORE ON THINKING BEHIND THE MOVEMENT. TRUST ME I HAVE EARNED AN 9TH DEGREE BLACK IN AIKDO. AS WELL AS EARNED ADVANCED DEGREES IN AKIBUDO, KENDO, KENPO, NORTHERN XIAOLIN, CHOY LI FUT, HUNG GAR, WU SHU RU, TAI CHI CHUNG AS WELL AS TAI CHI YING YANG, REI KAI, SHODAN, SHORIN JI, JUJUTSU, JITAJUTSU, JUI JITSU, YOGA, CAPOEIRA, KALARIPPAYATTU, LLAMA LLMA, DOP DOP AND BOXING. ALL OF WHICH I SAW IN NINPO. IASLO STUDIES NINPO UNDER MASAKI HATSUMI MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO. AND BEFORE HAYES WAS STUDYING IT, AS WELL AS STUDIES IT UNDER FRANK W DUX AND SENZO TANAKA. BUT THATS ANOTHER DEBATE ALTOGETHER.
THE ARGUEMENT ABOUT STEFAN K HAYES, RELATES TO THIS AREA SINCE THE DALI LLAMA OF TIBET CHOOSE HIM AS A BODY GUARD BECAUSE THE DALI LLAMA VIEWED MASAKI HATSUMI AS A NINJA MASTER AND STEFAN HAYES AS HIS STUDEN AND ALLOWED TO USE AND TEACH TOGEI KURE RYU/BUJINKAN NINPO.
NINJUTSU IS THE LOWER ART AND NINPO IS THE HIGHER ART.
MASAKI HATSUMI IS WIDELY KNOWN IN JAPAN, KOBE CITY AS WEALL AS NADO AND TOKYO. HE IS IN THE PHONE BOOK AS IS HIS SCHOOL. AND HE IS OFFICIALLY RECONISED BY THE IMPERIAL FAMILY. I KNOW I HAVE LIVED AND TRAVEL BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN AMERICAN AND JAPAN FOR ALMOST 50 YEARS NOW.
IN-IKHAN NINPO RYU. SHIDOSHI 208.54.14.112 ( talk) 08:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
trolled at wikipedia, shame on you. Anyhow, isn't this spam link? all the "references" I mean. About the claims of ninja organisation, well If I create a religioun and call myself a god, will my wikipedia article be "Peter calls himself god" or "Peter is god"? Even if I'm indeed god, if the rest of world think I'm not, I can only claim it. From my point of view bujinkan is much of a ninja as I as a guy who trains shooting an assassin. The defenition is not common. So please mantain the more common defenition, ninja is an defunct class of soldiers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.108.3.196 ( talk) 17:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been a disagreement on whether the Bujinkan is a ninja organisation or an organisation that teaches ninjutsu and the different between these. Specifically this relates to the description in the lead section Nate 14 81 12:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
16:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, you're just getting silly now. What's next? Jesus himself came down from heaven and awarded Hatsumi an official "Ninja Badge" and vowed that anyone who gainsays him is going to hell?
Is there anyone here other than this one anonymous user who can't even figure out how to sign his own posts that thinks this is an issue? -- Jikaku ( talk) 16:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Again this Jikaku is engaging in personal attacks against me rather than providing the evidence against the Bujinkan being a Ninja organization, because you know that the information I gave to you is correct and indisputable. There's nothing "silly" about mentioning the awards and honorary citations that have been given to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi Ph.D. But rather these awards and honorary citations simply provide additional justification to proving Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's legitimacy in his Ninja lineage. Again this is the last time I politely ask you, please refrain from personal attacks against me and if you disagree with the evidence and proof I have provided supporting the legitimacy of the Bujinkan Ninja organization, then you must provide proof and evidence that it is NOT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.179.120 ( talk) 17:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
And please watch these videos for indisputable confirmation that the Bujinkan IS a Ninja organization:
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.179.120 (
talk)
17:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Clueless. I watched your video clips - in fact, I caught these *entertainment* shows when they aired, too. Are they entertaining and fun to watch? Sure. Do they verify that the Bujinkan is a "Ninja Organization?" No, not at all, even a tiny little bit. The rest of your claims are also useless in this regard. -- Jikaku ( talk) 17:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
What is fact is a fact, but title of a Ninja is not necessarily bad, if that is the case then why would anyone take pride in calling themselves " a Navy SEAL, or SWAT Team officer" as they, like the Bujinkan Ninja, are all fully trained professionals capable of assassinations and stealth efficient killing of other human beings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.179.120 (talk)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
19:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay - so far we have one single person insisting on "Ninja Organization" and completely ignoring all evidence provided to the contrary (I predict a response from him to this comment denying any such evidence, as though the rest of this overly long page simply loaded with it doesn't really exist) - while all other editors weigh in with "NOT ninja organization." At what point do we decide enough's enough and be done with this? I don't see anyone changing anyone's mind here. His youtube "evidence" (it's UNDENIABLE!!!) isn't going to get any better, neither does he show signs of being open to differing opinion... -- Jikaku ( talk) 06:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
1.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
10:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
To provide further evidence supporting the legitimacy of the Bujinkan as true Ninja organization and disprove the personal opinion of User Jikaku who had previously stated that "In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base." I am providing a Japanese interview conducted on Masaaki Hatsumi for the Japanese Public, as Hatsumi Sensei is extremely well respected as Ninja Grandmaster in Japan, as well as a person of true Ninja lineage! Please watch the following interview and take notice that the Japanese TV hostess even states that "He (refering to Hatsumi) is the 43rd master of the Togakure School and a ninja in the modern era." This statement shows that even in a culturally conservative post WWII society, the Japanese public officially recognize Dr. Hatsumi as being a legitimate heir to the Togakure School as well as being a modern day Ninja, which sufficiently disproves some previous editor's statements, including the personal opinion of User RogueNinja about the Bujinkan that "They are not ninjas." But indeed they are, undeniably, modern day Ninjas! Please watch the videos below for confirmation!
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=csMCFHyKW5g&feature=related (Japanese Documentary about Bujinkan & Hatsumi)
2.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
3.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
6.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
How about, instead of:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is an international organisation that describes itself as a ninja organisation.
we go with:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a self-described ninja organisation.
It removed the redundant/double "organization" - worth changing? -- Jikaku ( talk) 18:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Showing additionally, Dr. Hatsumi is recognized IN Japan as a legitimate Ninja Master. It seems as if this page is being edited either by uninformed non-ninjutsu practitioners who have no understanding of the Ninja or that it is being edited by some rival factions who want to compete with and downgrade the legitimacy of the Bujinkan by attacking Dr. Hatsumi! Please look at the evidence for INDISPUTABLE confirmation showing that Dr. Hatsumi is internationally recognized as a Ninja Master:
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
10:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know the facts of this case, but there is pretty obviously an edit war going on here. Why doesn't everyone refrain from editing these claims until the RfC has reached a conclusion? Soaringgoldeneagle ( talk) 10:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Please take a few minutes to watch the video evidence which comes from neutral, independent, reputable, and well respected sources such as the BBC and CBS News.
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
140.232.150.91 (
talk)
11:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
YES!!!! We have our "three more times" for the pasting of the youtube links! I knew we could do it! Now, if we want to be over-achievers, I say we shoot for two more full youtube link lists, and another three uses of "undeniable!" (with extra points if all caps or more than one exclamation point is used).
Seriously though - it's clear that there's editor consensus with the exception of one individual who has no interest in learning how wikipedia actually works, making any meaningful contribution to the articles - he just wants to enforce his own personal opinion - an opinion that even the Bujinkan doesn't seem to push. Since we're all in agreement, let's just fix the article, and if talk can't deal with it and reverts it again - we either follow through with blocking him, or lock the page. Otherwise this is going to go on forever as a meaningless back-and-forth. -- Jikaku ( talk) 15:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
No, there is no editor consensus! You have not provided any proof backing up your claims! I can have you blocked as well if you want to play immature childish games instead of resolving this issue in a civilized manner with scholarly reason and logic! I have been polite and attempted to reason with proof only to suffer repeated personal attacks by the uncivilized User Jikaku who refuses to reason and come to a suitable compromise! Majority means nothing on Wikipedia, only FACTS matter!! So if you got some good propositions, you present them in a civilised manner with evidence and then a final decision can only be made if the compromise is respectable and does NOT disrespect or discredit the Bujinkan or Dr. Hatsumi!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 07:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am proposing "The Bujinkan is an international organization that trains their students in the martial art and unconventional warfare tactics of the Ninja" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 07:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I made similar points ot JJL & Bradford above, also found a Bujinkan school who dispute the description of the buj as a ninja org.:
- "Most people who train in Ninjutsu, would not describe themselves as Ninja - and regard the term largely as an anachronism. This is because Ninja implies not only a body of skills, but also a profession, and complex historical and political context which made being a Ninja a necessity - or at least a practicality - in Medieval Japan."
Watch for confirmation about
1.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F7A-EJ_trFg (Japanese TV Interview with Dr. Hatsumi)
2.)
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4242971n (
CBS News Report about Bujinkan)
3.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XxdLH0ax64I (
History Channel Documentary)
4.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyvmhNFwjuo (
BBC Documentary)
5.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LC0rwG5rR8Y (
BBC Documentary)</br
We will stay with the following compromise:
"The Bujinkan is an international organzation that trains their students in the martial art and unconventional warfare tactics of the Ninja" And this is FACT! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.150.91 ( talk) 09:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
"In Japanese history, a ninja (忍者 ,ninja?) is a warrior specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war. These include assassination, illusion, espionage, and various martial arts." That is the definition of Ninja straight from a wikipedia page. Link: [4] here you go guys. BigBoss_Alpha —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigBoss Alpha ( talk • contribs) 11:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I've protected this indefinitely per a request at WP:RFPP. Do not hestiate to contact me or relist it once all contentions have been ironed out. Cheers. WilliamH ( talk) 12:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I re-wrote the first paragraph of this article on the 27th August 2007.
It was originally:
The Bujinkan (Warrior Spirit Training Hall or House of the Divine Warrior), or more properly the Bujinkan Dōjō (武神館道場) is a martial arts organization. It is headed and operated by ' Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭 Hatsumi Masaaki), the current sōke. The headquarters (hombu dojo) of Bujinkan, the Bujinden, is in Noda just outside Tokyo.
I replaced it with:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a martial arts organization practicing the art commonly referred to as Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術). It is headed by the Sōke Dr Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭). Dr Hatsumi is the recognized lineage holder of the nine ryūha (see ancestral schools) transferred to him in the middle of the 20th Century by his teacher Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The Bujinkan is specifically known for its koshijutsu, koppojustu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, and happo hikenjutsu in addition to its higher elements of ninpō and ninjutsu.
It is currently:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is an international organisation for the martial art commonly referred to as Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術). It is headed by the Sōke, or grandmaster, Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭). The Bujinkan is particularly known for practising koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu).
It seems to me that a consensus has been in place for over 1 year as the intro blurb has not changed much in this time. I have been a member of the Bujinkan for more than 17 years. I don't feel the comments regarding Unconventional Warfare add anything to the article. To the user who keeps adding this: "Please I am begging you, leave the article as it has been for the last year, If you feel you want to add a section on the Bujinkan and Unconventional warfare containing factual info for the reader then please do, but not in the intro section. Please ensure you reference it if you do, as Wikipedia should only contain corroborated facts as is the case with all peer reviewed journal articles"
Regarding, locking this article and only allowing two people to administer it, I feel this is a dangerous path to go down unless you can prove that you are very senior members of the Bujinkan who train frequently at the Honbu dojo, and therefore are experts regarding matters of the Bujinkan.
I look forward to your comments on this matter.
Regards,
D.
I am not suggesting only senior members of Bujinkan can edit it. You are correct, I don't understand the lock. Is it locked now forever?
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.28.92.5 ( talk) 13:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I'm the admin who locked this article. It won't be protected forever, just until we reach a point where it won't be reverted back and forth. Also, let me just say I have nothing to do with Bujinkan - you might say I'm just the janitor who locks the doors if they need locking. I've glanced through past discussions and I get the impression that the tide is against the IP's "Unconventional Warfare" edits. I also note that said purporter of such material has been blocked for POV pushing. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I understand it. Would anyone care to elaborate, or correct me if necessary? Cheers. WilliamH ( talk) 16:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose we leave it as it is now, and if someone who knows about and wants to add a section on the historical warfare aspects within the Bujinkan (i.e., from the Amatsu Tatara etc) or special forces training etc, then they can either start a new section, or a new wikipedia page.
What do people think about this?
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.28.92.5 ( talk) 11:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Karl Friday is a well-respected Japanese Historian. He states, "It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the Bugei ryuha daijiten, Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games")..." (Source: (Friday, Karl Dr. "Re: Ninja and Ninjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List. May 19th, 1999.) Also, take a look at the webpage this information is on < http://www.mardb.com/ninjutsu/ninjutsu-and-koryu-bujutsu.html> It shows many problems with the lineage of Toshitsugu Takamatsu and Masaaki Hatsumi.
Most people in Japan that study this stuff seem to already know that Toshitsugu Takamatsu and Masaaki Hatsumi are not connected to "authentic Ninjutsu." In the above document it states Toshitsugu made up his Ninjutsu from childhood games he played. Thus, since Toshitsugu Takamatsu was Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan fall under this category. Aruku85 ( talk) 22:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
However it's also worth noting that the fourth edition of the bugei ryuha daijiten the BRD accepted the ninpo ryuha completely.
Various IPs are reverting to a version of the introduction that also removes several other edits. In my view that version is primarily promotional rather then informative, does anyone else have a view? -- Nate 14 81 08:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Referring to the changes discussed here as "POV vandalism" can't be helpful. JJL ( talk) 23:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
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Archive 1 |
One thing that might help is moving this article to be at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and redirecting this page about the org. to the page about the art. I think it'd be easier to write about the art first and the org. that governs it secondarily. For now I'll suggest the following:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is an international martial arts organization based in Japan and headed by Masaaki Hatsumi. It is best known for its claimed historical association with ninjutsu. The system taught by this group, called Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu, consists of nine separate martial arts traditions.
Maybe following that with a sentence about how a variety of weapons are taught in addition to empty hand work is reasonable, but that tends to invite accretion as people add other things that are also part of the art. JJL ( talk) 17:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think saying "It is best known for its claimed historical association with ninjutsu." is a political hot potato, and will carry on/create more warring. Also the bujinkan does not contain 9 seperate martial arts, it consists of 9 seperate martial lineages which now form one single art called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. So maybe this sentence should be removed completely. Also, what is wrong with the sentence: "The school is known for practising koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu)." These are the key historical forms practised within the Bujinkan, but are not seperate martial arts. Having them in the list provides upfront links to these wiki pages.
FYI The art and the governance are one and the same. This is a school that follows the system of one grandmaster who is the art and responsible for its governance. There are no officially recognised international bodies, so the Bujinkan does not follow the western model that is common for many arts. Thus it would be difficult to seperate out governance and detail about the art.
FYI2 my only agenda is to make this paragraph as accurate and concise as possible.
D —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 13:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
How about this:
Move the page to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as proposed by JJL, and then make the starting blurb say this:
Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術) is a Japanese martial art founded in the 20th century by Masaaki Hatsumi. This martial system consists of nine traditional martial schools (Ryūha) inherited by Masaaki Hatsumi from his teacher Toshitsugu Takamatsu, a man thought to be one of the last living ninja.
Or something similar??
D —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 15:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
My only problem with using "claimed" is it has negative connotations, and will likely be perceived by some as an attack, so could potentially lead to more warring. I think using “thought” is more neutral and not as strong as saying something like “he was one of the last living ninja”.
FYI there is a book called “Takamatsu Toshitsugu - The Last Shinobi” (shinobi is the old Japanese reading of the kanji for ninja. This is a biography of Takamatsu and Fujita Seiko – “the last Kōga-ninja”), although this does not necessary legitimise the comment. Whether people accept it or not, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu does contain ninpo in it’s densho so members of the Bujinkan will always want to see this in the blurb. So I included the comment “a man thought to be one of the last living ninja” to keep these people happy. We could remove it all together if it is going to be too political, but I think in the future people will want to add comments like this.
D —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 09:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are some links to substantiate the comment that Takamatsu Toshitsugu is thought to be one of the last living ninja (I appreciate they are not as solid as a publication in Science or Nature, but I suppose that is the problem with trying to substantiate claims for subjects like this):
Book called Takamatsu-Toshitsugu-The-Last-Shinobi: http://www.amazon.com/Takamatsu-Toshitsugu-The-Last-Shinobi/dp/B000KM74DO
DVD Rip of Masaaki Hatsumi's documentary about his teacher Takamatsu Toshitsugu: http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1498574bKz2WXjx
Here are some other links containing this comment:
http://www.magokoro-dojo.org/takamatsu.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mrdsouza/takamatsu.html
http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/toshitsugu-takamatsu.htm
How about this (concluding with a few references to substantiate the comment that Takamatsu is considered to be one of the last living Ninja):
Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術) is a Japanese martial art founded in the 20th century by Masaaki Hatsumi. This martial system consists of nine traditional martial schools ( Ryūha) inherited by Masaaki Hatsumi from his teacher Toshitsugu Takamatsu, a man considered to be one of the last living ninja. (References).
-- D ( talk) 19:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
note Unprotected for 1 day & the IP is back to its reverting, I have posted the link to this discussion on there talk page. -- Nate 14 81 09:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
With this still running is it worth requesting a long term semi-protection? -- Nate 14 81 12:55, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I have protected this article due to a significant amount of edit warring. The edit warring can be prevented by semi-protection, but that is not an implication that the IP editor is right or wrong or an endorsement of either position. Edit warring is harmful to articles whether right or wrong, and as a community we have a policy that disagreements get sorted out by discussion either here, or via other forms of dispute resolution. Please use those rather than edit warring -- both "sides".
Thanks. FT2 ( Talk | email) 21:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 10:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This is how it reads at the moment:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a martial arts organisation originating in Japan and headed by Masaaki Hatsumi, its Sōke (grandmaster). Bujinkan is a colloquially used abbreviation of the full name of the system, which is Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu. The school is known for practising such arts as koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu).
I would only make a simple alteration to:
The Bujinkan (武神館) is a martial arts organisation originating in Japan and headed by Masaaki Hatsumi, its Sōke (grandmaster). "The Bujinkan" is a colloquially used abbreviation of the full name of the system, which is Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu. The school is known for practising koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, dakentaijutsu, happo bikenjutsu and ninpo taijutsu (a.k.a. ninjutsu).
My reasoning:
D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D99 ( talk • contribs) 14:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
More above-- Nate 14 81 08:47, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the sentence 'Furthermore, unlike other martial arts, the color has no relation to the actual kyu-level the practitioner holds.' As far as I am aware, wherever coloured belts are used for kyu grades, they represent an actual rank. The correspondence between colour and rank varies between dojos which use this format, as it is not something dictated or even suggested by the Bujinkan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by British ( talk • contribs) 10:59, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Hey...are you people sure it's a Ninja organization as stated in the 1st paragraph? It just sounds a bit odd, I thought its some sort of cultural organization. Haven't so called Ninja's and it's organizations not been abolished since the 1800s?
Northwolf56 ( talk) 15:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |