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Does anyone know how you'd harness the energy from Bubble Fusion? It doesn't make sense to me naturally since the liquid that the cavitation is taking place in is kept at room temperature and fusion is theoretically contained entirely inside the collapsing bubbles. That's something I've never seen addressed in any article on Bubble Fusion that I've read. It'd be a nice addition to the piece.
(1) | D | + | T | → | 4He | (3.5 MeV) | + | n | (14.1 MeV) |
I'm really not confident to include this in the article itself, but I wonder if someone could take the information from the BBC Horizon documentary broadcast on 17/2/05 and incorporate it into the article. They got Putterman to attempt to replicate the exiperiment, but he failed to detect any fusion neutrons. (See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/experiment_prog_summary.shtml)
The movie Chain Reaction, while discussing sonoluminescence, did not directly address fusion. Instead, the scientists were pursuing a cheap method of producing gaseous hydrogen. The centerpiece explosion of the movie was an explosion of hydrogen gas, not a nuclear explosion.
Reply: This is true. Putterman, an expert in sonoluminescence, was commissioned along with an independent expert in nuclear fusion detection, to thoroughly study the claims of R. Taleyarkhan. With help from Brian Naranjo, another sonoluminescence expert, the group concluded that no evidence of nuclear fusion could be found using the techniques of Taleyarkhan, and that he was simply misinterpreting the by-products of radioactive decay from lab equipment for the by-products of fusion. If you attend a soft condensed matter Physics conference, every expert outside of Taleyarkhan's group (regardless of their affiliation) will tell you that Taleyarkhan's group got it wrong, but that sonofusion is still a theoretical possibility that we may see at some point in the future.
I believe bubble fusion works and there is a experiment of a open water electrolytic cell at the same time it is bombarded by ultrasonic vibration one can observe (feel)the heat it generates. ((See: http://www.energyoffusion.com)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Minhducthandan ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
—————
I encourage the authors of this Wikipedia entry to take a look at some of the new sonoluminescence results which are the antecedent of this article:
http://www.physlink.com/News/030805CollapsingBubbles.cfm
They've confirmed that the surface of these collapsing bubbles are four times as hot as the surface of the sun. This does seem to confirm that the inside of the bubbles really may be as hot as the center of the sun.
Reply to above: No, you cannot detect any of the X-ray radiation because these photons are quickly absorbed by the surrounding fluid and do not reach your detectors. You would need to have a detector in the fluid itself and very close to the collapsing bubble on top of this. As of 2006, this would be a very difficult engineering problem and/or require more funding to accomplish than most of these small sonoluminescence/cavitation groups are being given.
:-)
http://www.impulsedevices.com/index.html - Omegatron 19:42, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Sonofusion seems to be the dominant term in use, especially in the literature. Should the article be renamed? Rei 20:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
The RPI links do not work. Besselfunctions 01:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
http://physorg.com/news10336.html indicates that there was a successful sonofusion experiment, but I know way too little about this topic to update the Wikipedia article. Somebody who understands this should read the article and make appropriate changes, i.e. change the part about this being only "hypothesized".
Reply: This is not true, as every single sonofusion experiment to date that has claimed to be "successful" has later been shown to be incorrect or a misinterpretation of the data. While it isn't *theoretically* impossible to achieve sonofusion, noone has actually done it yet (every time a new claim is made, the experts either immediately see why the claim is incorrect OR many expert groups try to reproduce the results that are claimed and cannot).
This article need neutralization and cleanup (maybe starting with the very long list of external links, which appear to include many irrelevant links). --- CH 11:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
As an example, the Patriot media anon near Bronx, New York just added a link to a news release from Pure Energy Systems News (PESN), which tends to be too credulous to be a reliable source of information.--- CH 20:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This article needs to be more neutral. The experimental results are under review by Purdue University. Comments on the review should wait until the completion of the review. In any case the scientific method should be followed and not the political method.-- Ron Marshall 21:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ron, sonofusion is theoretically possible if the collapse of the bubble can be enhanced/optimized. This is why sonofusion research is given credibility. The problem is that noone has yet optimized the cavitation process to achieve sonofusion. If you talk to the experts in this field (Willy Moss, Ken Suslick, Seth Putterman, Brian Naranjo, Robert Apfel, etc, etc), all of them, no matter where they are from and who they are affiliated with, will tell you that sonofusion isn't impossible and they would *love* to see it achieved, however they will also all tell you that it has yet to be accomplished and that every single group (mainly Taleyarkhan's) that has claimed to observe sonofusion made a mistake in interpreting their data.
I note that the section about the misuse of funds seems to have little bearing on the rest of the article and seems out of place. Perhaps it would be a good idea to remove it, as its primary purpose appears to be to cast doubt on a particular research journal instead of being about bubble fusion. -- 69.69.127.231 22:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree - there is little context and the section does not really make sense. LeContexte 14:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Argueing about whether or not DARPA funds were misused to support sonofusion research or not credited in certain publications has little, or nothing, to do with sonofusion. This isn't supposed to be a tabloid. Imagine going to the page on the internal combustion engine and finding a ton of useless babble regarding how funds may have been misused through the years to support engine research and so on.
The previous section seems to have wandered from Cleanup to the Science, but I thought I'd start a new section anyway in view of some fairly substantial changes, including a new section. This is mainly a review of what I have added.
I have known and corresponded with Taleyarkhan for a year or so now and so have rather an insider's view of things. One thing that is obvious is that this is a hotly contested subject and has in some ways achieved the character of war, with one side wishing to destroy the other. There are reasons for this, some more obvious than the others. Let me say first of all that hypothetical wrong doing by Taleyarkhan was not the only issue that arose in Purdue's investigation, and trying to conceal the details seems to be the cause of Purdue's silence, with unfortunate consequences.
Then there is a point to be noted, not that frequently mentioned, which I have added to one of the sections: some phenomena are insensitive to conditions and so are easy to replicate, while others are not. Bubble fusion is clearly one of the sensitive ones: hence one should not infer too much from failures to replicate. In fact, I have seen evidence that one of the much-touted failed replications was the consequence of visible departure of the conditions from the ideal.
Also, there is a paper that has been submitted for publication by a group at a different university (such is the fear of the people concerned that they will be attacked that their names are blacked out in the copy I have seen). This group used the same method as the one where it is claimed the neutrons are caused by Cf-252 and got the same result. You would have to assume a massive conspiracy to suppose all the positive results were due to this cause; far more 'parsimonious' as they say to suppose that some people did the experiment better than others.
I might add that Taleyarkhan has received the goahead from PRL to put his accepted paper disputing Naranjo into the physics preprint archive, so soon you will be able to see for yourselves the evidence that Naranjo's theory was wrong, or at least did not apply.
I come now to the matter of Reich's nasty article in the July 20 issue of Nature. It is difficult to see this as being anything other than an 'attempt to wipe bubble fusion off the face of the Earth'. If that sounds strong, look at the evidence -- the new section that I added and its links to my web page analyses. The editor of Nature seemed upset by my first article 'Nature on the Attack' and tried to maintain 'we have merely this and merely that ... ' -- all very innocent. I took up the challenge and analysed the text and, I believe, refuted everything he said. He has not come back to me since.
It would not have mattered so much had the editor accepted that the article did look like an unwarranted attack (the main argument for what they categorise as funding misuse, ascribed to Putterman, was fallacious, in fact, an assertion Nature has not disputed). But he has refused to budge, and that is a serious matter for science and for truth.
It is unusual for reviews of the science to talk much of the political dimension, but these hostile articles in Nature (compare them with those in IEEE Spectrum) have had such a distorting effect on the science that they cannot be just written out of the picture. And the whole affair is of interest to historians of science and sociologists, as well.
Brian Josephson 14:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph as it was a duplication, it was discussed earlier in detail
Nil Einne 07:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
References
http://www.letu.edu/opencms/opencms/events/Bubble_Fusion_Confirmed_by_LETU_Research.html — Omegatron 09:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Two papers? From [2]:
Removed the following section for being unreferenced speculation. — Omegatron 03:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
While many of the claims remain unverified at this time, many ideas exist to increase the rate of fusion. The experimental apparatus as conducted in experiments thus far produces energy about seven orders of magnitude lower than that which went into it. However, a number of factors suggest that this is unlikely to remain the case.
Acetone under the temperatures, pressures, and other initial conditions involved is unlikely an optimal solution; several orders of magnitude of efficiency improvement are likely by experimenting with different solutions and laboratory settings. Additionally, using a mix of deuterium and tritium will increase fusion yields by three orders of magnitude (as would simply running the apparatus for long enough, as D-D fusion breeds tritium).
An increase in reaction rate may scale up faster than linearly. As a bubble collapses, shocks bounce inward from the edges, encountering their own reflections and additively combining creating the great heat and pressure to the degree that sonoluminescence or sonofusion can occur. The neutrons from the fusion reaction seed new bubbles nearby, creating a bubble cluster containing over 1,000 cavitating centers which act more powerfully together than they would individually.
One of the most interesting propositions, however, is the potential for a new kind of fusion criticality in sonofusion. Given two acoustic anti-nodes (wherein one is at minimum stress while the other is at maximum stress), neutrons from one node will be released while the other is at maximum stress. Some neutrons will interact with their anti-node, creating a bubble cluster and amplifying the reaction. When it collapses in turn, some of its neutrons will do the same to the original node, leading to a self-sustained nuclear reaction. This possibility is yet to be validated, and still remains theoretical. citation needed
Sonofusion has some fundamental benefits compared to most other methods of fusion. Shock heating of the fuel leaves the electrons at almost the same velocity as the ions, and thus (due to their much lighter mass) at insignificant temperatures. As energetic electrons are one of the principal energy loss mechanisms in most fusion apparatuses ( Bremsstrahlung radiation, recombination losses, line losses, etc), the sonofusion reaction doesn't lose energy as quickly as in such systems. Instead, it behaves largely as if only ions were being dealt with. At the same time, however, it has some fundamental limitations. The amount of dense, energetic area involved in sonofusion is typically tiny, limiting the amount of fusion reactions that can occur (currently about ten per bubble collapse).
considering the possibility that real fusion is occurring inside these bubbles, i was wondering if any research has been done on actual energy output and transmittance.... using basic equations the bubbles depending on size, heat transfer should give off energy from 1g tnt to 1kg? so the reaction vessel may have a hard time containing this and perhaps so would the building. i was wondering on the validity the claims when i recalled the scientist mentioned previously from a bbc doc, i believe the same one mentioned earlier? showed his fusion device and seemed like there was no sudden output of energy that should most likely damage the glass flask he was using, and perhaps also kill any bystanders. bubbles seemed to range from 1cm dia to 1mm hence 1g tnt to 1kg? but I’m not sure how losses to escaping neutron would change this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
anyway these were crude calculations but no one has addressed the issue- e=mc2 to fusion in a glass flask. if there are experts out there it would be interesting to hear their comment. i hope i'm not breaking any rules here on wikipedia(not too many)- regards Alexander —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darkmatterscientist ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
The article states that Forringer et al. at LeTourneau University used a solvent mixture including "deuterated benzine" for their experiments. Although I am neither a physicist nor a chemist, it seems more likely to me as a layman that they actually used "deuterated benzene," a commonly available solvent. Benzene (C6H6) is a discrete hydrocarbon compound, as are the other solvents used in the Forringer teams's mixture, while benzine is (according to Wikipedia) "a group of various volatile, highly flammable, liquid hydrocarbon mixtures." To me a solvent characterized as a "group of mixtures" would not seem appropriate to this kind of experiment. Wikipedia warns (caveat lector!) that "Benzine should not be confused with benzene." Can someone who is closer to the literature and experimenters than I am perhaps give a second opinion on this? Piperh 08:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just done a major reformatting, expansion, and verification of the many citations in this article. After nearly 3 hours, I'm too exhausted to go back and fix a few small errors (like some DOIs I added that are truncated). But I've accomplished several things:
I hope this will make it easier for everyone to analyze the available source information and edit the text appropriately. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This article still needs some work being updated. Specifically, this bit needs some work:
None of the above measurements have been confirmed by a group outside of Taleyarkhan's and are highly debated, recalling the 1989 cold fusion controversy.[3][4][5][6] However, New Energy Times has reported a replication by an unrelated group at a university in Texas.[7] (Researcher Edward Forringer works at LeTourneau University, a small evangelical Christian school.)
I'm not sure what to do with it. Which measurements have been reported by whom? — Omegatron 03:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
From version: [3] "They claimed a liquid scintillation detector measured neutron levels at 8 standard deviations above the background level, while plastic detectors measured levels at 3.8 standard deviations above the background. These measurements were within one standard deviation for the same experiment with a non-deuterated control liquid, indicating that the neutron production had only occurred during cavitation of the deuterated liquid."
"The report quotes Brian Naranjo of the University of California, Los Angeles to the effect that spectrum measured in these sonofusion experiments is consistent with radioactive decay of the lab equipment and hence does not reliably demonstrate the presence of nuclear reactions."
Let's just say both of these pieces of information/speculation are true (blatant speculative hypothesizing). Would this mean the deuterated setup is possibly catalyzing the radioactive decay of the lab equipment?
A further question: Are the neutron detectors tested with no working fluid (in addition to the calibration with the control non-deuterated fluid)? -- Formerly the IP-Address 24.22.227.53 ( talk) 04:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
good point! but perhaps more focus is needed on the harnessing of the energy (get a wire or something close enough to the bubble without it burning) instead of just detecting the neutrinos. a positive energy output would be proof enough surely, there is maybe a distinct lack of funding for this project, it would be interesting to compare it to the funding of JET and ITER. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.27.48 ( talk) 01:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Seriously, is the dude's name Mr. Butt? Cornince ( talk) 10:55, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The extensive investigation and facts presented by New Energy Times call into serious question the much of the content in the Wikipedia article--specifically the section titled "Doubts prompt investigation" should be removed in its entirety because the accusations of research fraud put forth by Tsoukalas, Suslick, Putterman have been shown to be false, dishonest and/or self-serving. Rusi Taleyarkhan, professor of nuclear engineering at Purdue University, has refuted these accusations and he is supported by signed affidavits provided by other Purdue faculty and staff. All of this calls into question the accuracy, truthfulness and motives of those who attempted to discredit the work of Rusi Taleyarkhan.
Regarding the reported failed replication by Seth Putterman and Ken Suslick, New Energy Times repors that "In that experiment, the UCLA team deliberately added noncondensable gases to the experiment; this guarantees a failure." see 2005 NURETH-11 [Nuclear Engineering and Design and the Nuclear Reactor Thermal Hydraulics conference] papers by Yiban Xu, Adam Butt and Shripad Revankar, which specifically demonstrate that, under the UCLA (Seth Putterman and Ken Suslick) experimental conditions, successful deuterium-deuterium bubble fusion will not occur."
Deland78 (
talk)
03:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
More information about Shapira and Saltmarsh's attempts to replicate Taleyarkahan's work - http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/energy/nuclear/bubble-fusion-bubbles-up-again "Not only was there excess tritium production in the Taleyarkhan group’s experiment, checked by a resident ORNL expert, but also Shapira and Saltmarsh knew it," Krivit writes. "Not only had the Taleyarkhan group measured excess neutrons with its detector, but so did Shapira and Saltmarsh, independently with their own detector." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thompn4 ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/11/roundup-1123-ke.html refers to http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2009/NET33Cdfkj5.shtml
Contained within the NET report: "the UCLA/UIUC replication attempt was not a mirror of the Oak Ridge experiment. This slide presentation best explains this matter" http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2009/UCLA-UIUC-FailureToReplicate.pdf
"A New Look at Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Research, " Journal of Environmental Monitoring, (Accepted for publication: 26 August) Vol. 11, p. 1731-1746, 2009, DOI:10.1039/B915458M Peer-reviewed journal paper http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2009/2009Krivit-S-ANewLookAtLENR.pdf
A map of how allegations A.2 and B.2 "came to be." http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/2008/2008HowPurdueFabricatedTheAllegations.jpg
Full trace and source data on the map is here: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/2008/PurdueResearchIntegrityCommitteeFabricatesAllegations.shtml StevenBKrivit ( talk) 04:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
After reading this article I'm seeing evidence that it does work, and it doesn't work. Which is it? The article needs to be more clear about that. If it's pseudo science, it needs to be said. If it's legit, it needs to be said. ScienceApe ( talk) 15:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
The introduction to this article has a tag that says it needs to be rewritten. I'll try to improve it, but I'd like it if others could help me. Zeromus1 ( talk) 20:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I added a few sentences to the lead. Is my change an improvement? Zeromus1 ( talk) 20:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
This section is mostly incorrect.
On July 29, 2013, New Energy Times published a special report "2001 Oak Ridge Nuclear Cavitation Confirmation Uncovered." What has been reported - until now - as a failure by Dan Shapira and Michael Saltmarsh to confirm the nuclear cavitation work of Rusi Taleyarkhan and his group at Oak Ridge National Laboratories was actually a confirmation. In 2012, New Energy Times obtained the full set of internal ORNL technical reports that reveal the events that took place behind the scenes. We also obtained live video footage of nuclear cavitation experiments performed at Oak Ridge in 2003. Together with a brief telephone interview we conducted with Shapira, the facts shed new light on this controversy. Any editors of Wikipedia who would like a complementary copy of the full report may send a request to New Energy Times. StevenBKrivit ( talk) 18:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
VQuakr, I understand that Wikipedia is a community, and that you are just one of the many members of this community. I am also not aware that you or anyone else is a designated representative of this worldwide community and has the authority to speak on his behalf.
For your benefit, as well as for others in the Wikipedia community, I would like to direct your attention to the relevant facts, should any of you choose to improve the accuracy of Wikipedia, here they are:
Quoting from Shapira: “The paper presents a convincing case of excess tritium productions when cavitation is induced in cold deuterated acetone. The methods and procedures in collecting these data have been independently reviewed by a relevant ORNL expert in the field.”
Quoting from Shapira: “The [Taleyarkhan group’s] paper also presents data which show excess of nuclear radiation (neutrons/gammas) production when cavitation is induced in deuterated acetone.”
Related news article: http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/07/22/ornl-nuclear-cavitation-surprise-in-shapira-saltmarsh-raw-data-part-5/
Original source reference: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/2001/2001ORNL-Shapira-Neutronics-Review12-19-01.pdf
To summarize the Oak Ridge matter:
For 10 years, the public’s understanding of this research has been that 1) Shapira and Saltmarsh made their own independent replication of the Taleyarkhan group's experiment, 2) in doing so, they failed to replicate the group's work, and 3) by this disconfirmation, they proved that the original experiment by the Taleyarkhan group was wrong.
The New Energy Times investigation found that 1) Shapira and Saltmarsh did not perform their own experimental replication, 2) they measured data from an experiment set up and operated by the Taleyarkhan group, 3) the data they took was positive and confirmed the group's claim, 4) internal documents revealed how Shapira and Saltmarsh attempted but failed to hide the data from Oak Ridge management and 5) Shapira and Saltmarsh attempted to hide and succeeded in hiding the data from the public.
StevenBKrivit ( talk) 19:02, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
“None of the investigations examined the research itself.” This needs a citation.-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 01:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
2H Plasma smashed to 3H BEC Wall. H means hydrogen. The numbers are isotopes. BEC means bose-eistein condensate
This is not cold fusion by any means! The BECed 3H is only a spread net to capture with more inertia the supefast 2H plasma!
It works in the labs. It is considered a standardised method and has nothing to do with BEC fusion.
Here BEC plays only the role of the high inertia spread 3H net. The main job is done by supehot 2H plasma.
No claims fot cold fusion here, just a BEC 3H net. It is a simple BEC, and the plasma a classic plasma,
but to make it extra hot and to control it, you need some bucks to build it right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.196.37 ( talk) 02:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Is it note worthy for the article that Gizmodo just did an article on this form of fusion (alternatively names "First Light Fusion" apparently) and noted the earliest speculation was from a by-product of an experiment in "1934" sonoluminescene. I don't "do" science articles so wondered if it had a place in the "Original experiments" section to show the development in knowledge. Article link here Jonjonjohny ( talk) 20:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
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Does anyone know how you'd harness the energy from Bubble Fusion? It doesn't make sense to me naturally since the liquid that the cavitation is taking place in is kept at room temperature and fusion is theoretically contained entirely inside the collapsing bubbles. That's something I've never seen addressed in any article on Bubble Fusion that I've read. It'd be a nice addition to the piece.
(1) | D | + | T | → | 4He | (3.5 MeV) | + | n | (14.1 MeV) |
I'm really not confident to include this in the article itself, but I wonder if someone could take the information from the BBC Horizon documentary broadcast on 17/2/05 and incorporate it into the article. They got Putterman to attempt to replicate the exiperiment, but he failed to detect any fusion neutrons. (See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/experiment_prog_summary.shtml)
The movie Chain Reaction, while discussing sonoluminescence, did not directly address fusion. Instead, the scientists were pursuing a cheap method of producing gaseous hydrogen. The centerpiece explosion of the movie was an explosion of hydrogen gas, not a nuclear explosion.
Reply: This is true. Putterman, an expert in sonoluminescence, was commissioned along with an independent expert in nuclear fusion detection, to thoroughly study the claims of R. Taleyarkhan. With help from Brian Naranjo, another sonoluminescence expert, the group concluded that no evidence of nuclear fusion could be found using the techniques of Taleyarkhan, and that he was simply misinterpreting the by-products of radioactive decay from lab equipment for the by-products of fusion. If you attend a soft condensed matter Physics conference, every expert outside of Taleyarkhan's group (regardless of their affiliation) will tell you that Taleyarkhan's group got it wrong, but that sonofusion is still a theoretical possibility that we may see at some point in the future.
I believe bubble fusion works and there is a experiment of a open water electrolytic cell at the same time it is bombarded by ultrasonic vibration one can observe (feel)the heat it generates. ((See: http://www.energyoffusion.com)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Minhducthandan ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
—————
I encourage the authors of this Wikipedia entry to take a look at some of the new sonoluminescence results which are the antecedent of this article:
http://www.physlink.com/News/030805CollapsingBubbles.cfm
They've confirmed that the surface of these collapsing bubbles are four times as hot as the surface of the sun. This does seem to confirm that the inside of the bubbles really may be as hot as the center of the sun.
Reply to above: No, you cannot detect any of the X-ray radiation because these photons are quickly absorbed by the surrounding fluid and do not reach your detectors. You would need to have a detector in the fluid itself and very close to the collapsing bubble on top of this. As of 2006, this would be a very difficult engineering problem and/or require more funding to accomplish than most of these small sonoluminescence/cavitation groups are being given.
:-)
http://www.impulsedevices.com/index.html - Omegatron 19:42, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Sonofusion seems to be the dominant term in use, especially in the literature. Should the article be renamed? Rei 20:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
The RPI links do not work. Besselfunctions 01:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
http://physorg.com/news10336.html indicates that there was a successful sonofusion experiment, but I know way too little about this topic to update the Wikipedia article. Somebody who understands this should read the article and make appropriate changes, i.e. change the part about this being only "hypothesized".
Reply: This is not true, as every single sonofusion experiment to date that has claimed to be "successful" has later been shown to be incorrect or a misinterpretation of the data. While it isn't *theoretically* impossible to achieve sonofusion, noone has actually done it yet (every time a new claim is made, the experts either immediately see why the claim is incorrect OR many expert groups try to reproduce the results that are claimed and cannot).
This article need neutralization and cleanup (maybe starting with the very long list of external links, which appear to include many irrelevant links). --- CH 11:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
As an example, the Patriot media anon near Bronx, New York just added a link to a news release from Pure Energy Systems News (PESN), which tends to be too credulous to be a reliable source of information.--- CH 20:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This article needs to be more neutral. The experimental results are under review by Purdue University. Comments on the review should wait until the completion of the review. In any case the scientific method should be followed and not the political method.-- Ron Marshall 21:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ron, sonofusion is theoretically possible if the collapse of the bubble can be enhanced/optimized. This is why sonofusion research is given credibility. The problem is that noone has yet optimized the cavitation process to achieve sonofusion. If you talk to the experts in this field (Willy Moss, Ken Suslick, Seth Putterman, Brian Naranjo, Robert Apfel, etc, etc), all of them, no matter where they are from and who they are affiliated with, will tell you that sonofusion isn't impossible and they would *love* to see it achieved, however they will also all tell you that it has yet to be accomplished and that every single group (mainly Taleyarkhan's) that has claimed to observe sonofusion made a mistake in interpreting their data.
I note that the section about the misuse of funds seems to have little bearing on the rest of the article and seems out of place. Perhaps it would be a good idea to remove it, as its primary purpose appears to be to cast doubt on a particular research journal instead of being about bubble fusion. -- 69.69.127.231 22:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree - there is little context and the section does not really make sense. LeContexte 14:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Argueing about whether or not DARPA funds were misused to support sonofusion research or not credited in certain publications has little, or nothing, to do with sonofusion. This isn't supposed to be a tabloid. Imagine going to the page on the internal combustion engine and finding a ton of useless babble regarding how funds may have been misused through the years to support engine research and so on.
The previous section seems to have wandered from Cleanup to the Science, but I thought I'd start a new section anyway in view of some fairly substantial changes, including a new section. This is mainly a review of what I have added.
I have known and corresponded with Taleyarkhan for a year or so now and so have rather an insider's view of things. One thing that is obvious is that this is a hotly contested subject and has in some ways achieved the character of war, with one side wishing to destroy the other. There are reasons for this, some more obvious than the others. Let me say first of all that hypothetical wrong doing by Taleyarkhan was not the only issue that arose in Purdue's investigation, and trying to conceal the details seems to be the cause of Purdue's silence, with unfortunate consequences.
Then there is a point to be noted, not that frequently mentioned, which I have added to one of the sections: some phenomena are insensitive to conditions and so are easy to replicate, while others are not. Bubble fusion is clearly one of the sensitive ones: hence one should not infer too much from failures to replicate. In fact, I have seen evidence that one of the much-touted failed replications was the consequence of visible departure of the conditions from the ideal.
Also, there is a paper that has been submitted for publication by a group at a different university (such is the fear of the people concerned that they will be attacked that their names are blacked out in the copy I have seen). This group used the same method as the one where it is claimed the neutrons are caused by Cf-252 and got the same result. You would have to assume a massive conspiracy to suppose all the positive results were due to this cause; far more 'parsimonious' as they say to suppose that some people did the experiment better than others.
I might add that Taleyarkhan has received the goahead from PRL to put his accepted paper disputing Naranjo into the physics preprint archive, so soon you will be able to see for yourselves the evidence that Naranjo's theory was wrong, or at least did not apply.
I come now to the matter of Reich's nasty article in the July 20 issue of Nature. It is difficult to see this as being anything other than an 'attempt to wipe bubble fusion off the face of the Earth'. If that sounds strong, look at the evidence -- the new section that I added and its links to my web page analyses. The editor of Nature seemed upset by my first article 'Nature on the Attack' and tried to maintain 'we have merely this and merely that ... ' -- all very innocent. I took up the challenge and analysed the text and, I believe, refuted everything he said. He has not come back to me since.
It would not have mattered so much had the editor accepted that the article did look like an unwarranted attack (the main argument for what they categorise as funding misuse, ascribed to Putterman, was fallacious, in fact, an assertion Nature has not disputed). But he has refused to budge, and that is a serious matter for science and for truth.
It is unusual for reviews of the science to talk much of the political dimension, but these hostile articles in Nature (compare them with those in IEEE Spectrum) have had such a distorting effect on the science that they cannot be just written out of the picture. And the whole affair is of interest to historians of science and sociologists, as well.
Brian Josephson 14:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed this paragraph as it was a duplication, it was discussed earlier in detail
Nil Einne 07:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
References
http://www.letu.edu/opencms/opencms/events/Bubble_Fusion_Confirmed_by_LETU_Research.html — Omegatron 09:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Two papers? From [2]:
Removed the following section for being unreferenced speculation. — Omegatron 03:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
While many of the claims remain unverified at this time, many ideas exist to increase the rate of fusion. The experimental apparatus as conducted in experiments thus far produces energy about seven orders of magnitude lower than that which went into it. However, a number of factors suggest that this is unlikely to remain the case.
Acetone under the temperatures, pressures, and other initial conditions involved is unlikely an optimal solution; several orders of magnitude of efficiency improvement are likely by experimenting with different solutions and laboratory settings. Additionally, using a mix of deuterium and tritium will increase fusion yields by three orders of magnitude (as would simply running the apparatus for long enough, as D-D fusion breeds tritium).
An increase in reaction rate may scale up faster than linearly. As a bubble collapses, shocks bounce inward from the edges, encountering their own reflections and additively combining creating the great heat and pressure to the degree that sonoluminescence or sonofusion can occur. The neutrons from the fusion reaction seed new bubbles nearby, creating a bubble cluster containing over 1,000 cavitating centers which act more powerfully together than they would individually.
One of the most interesting propositions, however, is the potential for a new kind of fusion criticality in sonofusion. Given two acoustic anti-nodes (wherein one is at minimum stress while the other is at maximum stress), neutrons from one node will be released while the other is at maximum stress. Some neutrons will interact with their anti-node, creating a bubble cluster and amplifying the reaction. When it collapses in turn, some of its neutrons will do the same to the original node, leading to a self-sustained nuclear reaction. This possibility is yet to be validated, and still remains theoretical. citation needed
Sonofusion has some fundamental benefits compared to most other methods of fusion. Shock heating of the fuel leaves the electrons at almost the same velocity as the ions, and thus (due to their much lighter mass) at insignificant temperatures. As energetic electrons are one of the principal energy loss mechanisms in most fusion apparatuses ( Bremsstrahlung radiation, recombination losses, line losses, etc), the sonofusion reaction doesn't lose energy as quickly as in such systems. Instead, it behaves largely as if only ions were being dealt with. At the same time, however, it has some fundamental limitations. The amount of dense, energetic area involved in sonofusion is typically tiny, limiting the amount of fusion reactions that can occur (currently about ten per bubble collapse).
considering the possibility that real fusion is occurring inside these bubbles, i was wondering if any research has been done on actual energy output and transmittance.... using basic equations the bubbles depending on size, heat transfer should give off energy from 1g tnt to 1kg? so the reaction vessel may have a hard time containing this and perhaps so would the building. i was wondering on the validity the claims when i recalled the scientist mentioned previously from a bbc doc, i believe the same one mentioned earlier? showed his fusion device and seemed like there was no sudden output of energy that should most likely damage the glass flask he was using, and perhaps also kill any bystanders. bubbles seemed to range from 1cm dia to 1mm hence 1g tnt to 1kg? but I’m not sure how losses to escaping neutron would change this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent
anyway these were crude calculations but no one has addressed the issue- e=mc2 to fusion in a glass flask. if there are experts out there it would be interesting to hear their comment. i hope i'm not breaking any rules here on wikipedia(not too many)- regards Alexander —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darkmatterscientist ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
The article states that Forringer et al. at LeTourneau University used a solvent mixture including "deuterated benzine" for their experiments. Although I am neither a physicist nor a chemist, it seems more likely to me as a layman that they actually used "deuterated benzene," a commonly available solvent. Benzene (C6H6) is a discrete hydrocarbon compound, as are the other solvents used in the Forringer teams's mixture, while benzine is (according to Wikipedia) "a group of various volatile, highly flammable, liquid hydrocarbon mixtures." To me a solvent characterized as a "group of mixtures" would not seem appropriate to this kind of experiment. Wikipedia warns (caveat lector!) that "Benzine should not be confused with benzene." Can someone who is closer to the literature and experimenters than I am perhaps give a second opinion on this? Piperh 08:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just done a major reformatting, expansion, and verification of the many citations in this article. After nearly 3 hours, I'm too exhausted to go back and fix a few small errors (like some DOIs I added that are truncated). But I've accomplished several things:
I hope this will make it easier for everyone to analyze the available source information and edit the text appropriately. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This article still needs some work being updated. Specifically, this bit needs some work:
None of the above measurements have been confirmed by a group outside of Taleyarkhan's and are highly debated, recalling the 1989 cold fusion controversy.[3][4][5][6] However, New Energy Times has reported a replication by an unrelated group at a university in Texas.[7] (Researcher Edward Forringer works at LeTourneau University, a small evangelical Christian school.)
I'm not sure what to do with it. Which measurements have been reported by whom? — Omegatron 03:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
From version: [3] "They claimed a liquid scintillation detector measured neutron levels at 8 standard deviations above the background level, while plastic detectors measured levels at 3.8 standard deviations above the background. These measurements were within one standard deviation for the same experiment with a non-deuterated control liquid, indicating that the neutron production had only occurred during cavitation of the deuterated liquid."
"The report quotes Brian Naranjo of the University of California, Los Angeles to the effect that spectrum measured in these sonofusion experiments is consistent with radioactive decay of the lab equipment and hence does not reliably demonstrate the presence of nuclear reactions."
Let's just say both of these pieces of information/speculation are true (blatant speculative hypothesizing). Would this mean the deuterated setup is possibly catalyzing the radioactive decay of the lab equipment?
A further question: Are the neutron detectors tested with no working fluid (in addition to the calibration with the control non-deuterated fluid)? -- Formerly the IP-Address 24.22.227.53 ( talk) 04:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
good point! but perhaps more focus is needed on the harnessing of the energy (get a wire or something close enough to the bubble without it burning) instead of just detecting the neutrinos. a positive energy output would be proof enough surely, there is maybe a distinct lack of funding for this project, it would be interesting to compare it to the funding of JET and ITER. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.27.48 ( talk) 01:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Seriously, is the dude's name Mr. Butt? Cornince ( talk) 10:55, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The extensive investigation and facts presented by New Energy Times call into serious question the much of the content in the Wikipedia article--specifically the section titled "Doubts prompt investigation" should be removed in its entirety because the accusations of research fraud put forth by Tsoukalas, Suslick, Putterman have been shown to be false, dishonest and/or self-serving. Rusi Taleyarkhan, professor of nuclear engineering at Purdue University, has refuted these accusations and he is supported by signed affidavits provided by other Purdue faculty and staff. All of this calls into question the accuracy, truthfulness and motives of those who attempted to discredit the work of Rusi Taleyarkhan.
Regarding the reported failed replication by Seth Putterman and Ken Suslick, New Energy Times repors that "In that experiment, the UCLA team deliberately added noncondensable gases to the experiment; this guarantees a failure." see 2005 NURETH-11 [Nuclear Engineering and Design and the Nuclear Reactor Thermal Hydraulics conference] papers by Yiban Xu, Adam Butt and Shripad Revankar, which specifically demonstrate that, under the UCLA (Seth Putterman and Ken Suslick) experimental conditions, successful deuterium-deuterium bubble fusion will not occur."
Deland78 (
talk)
03:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
More information about Shapira and Saltmarsh's attempts to replicate Taleyarkahan's work - http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/energy/nuclear/bubble-fusion-bubbles-up-again "Not only was there excess tritium production in the Taleyarkhan group’s experiment, checked by a resident ORNL expert, but also Shapira and Saltmarsh knew it," Krivit writes. "Not only had the Taleyarkhan group measured excess neutrons with its detector, but so did Shapira and Saltmarsh, independently with their own detector." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thompn4 ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2009/11/roundup-1123-ke.html refers to http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2009/NET33Cdfkj5.shtml
Contained within the NET report: "the UCLA/UIUC replication attempt was not a mirror of the Oak Ridge experiment. This slide presentation best explains this matter" http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2009/UCLA-UIUC-FailureToReplicate.pdf
"A New Look at Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction Research, " Journal of Environmental Monitoring, (Accepted for publication: 26 August) Vol. 11, p. 1731-1746, 2009, DOI:10.1039/B915458M Peer-reviewed journal paper http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2009/2009Krivit-S-ANewLookAtLENR.pdf
A map of how allegations A.2 and B.2 "came to be." http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/2008/2008HowPurdueFabricatedTheAllegations.jpg
Full trace and source data on the map is here: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/2008/PurdueResearchIntegrityCommitteeFabricatesAllegations.shtml StevenBKrivit ( talk) 04:33, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
After reading this article I'm seeing evidence that it does work, and it doesn't work. Which is it? The article needs to be more clear about that. If it's pseudo science, it needs to be said. If it's legit, it needs to be said. ScienceApe ( talk) 15:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
The introduction to this article has a tag that says it needs to be rewritten. I'll try to improve it, but I'd like it if others could help me. Zeromus1 ( talk) 20:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I added a few sentences to the lead. Is my change an improvement? Zeromus1 ( talk) 20:40, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
This section is mostly incorrect.
On July 29, 2013, New Energy Times published a special report "2001 Oak Ridge Nuclear Cavitation Confirmation Uncovered." What has been reported - until now - as a failure by Dan Shapira and Michael Saltmarsh to confirm the nuclear cavitation work of Rusi Taleyarkhan and his group at Oak Ridge National Laboratories was actually a confirmation. In 2012, New Energy Times obtained the full set of internal ORNL technical reports that reveal the events that took place behind the scenes. We also obtained live video footage of nuclear cavitation experiments performed at Oak Ridge in 2003. Together with a brief telephone interview we conducted with Shapira, the facts shed new light on this controversy. Any editors of Wikipedia who would like a complementary copy of the full report may send a request to New Energy Times. StevenBKrivit ( talk) 18:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
VQuakr, I understand that Wikipedia is a community, and that you are just one of the many members of this community. I am also not aware that you or anyone else is a designated representative of this worldwide community and has the authority to speak on his behalf.
For your benefit, as well as for others in the Wikipedia community, I would like to direct your attention to the relevant facts, should any of you choose to improve the accuracy of Wikipedia, here they are:
Quoting from Shapira: “The paper presents a convincing case of excess tritium productions when cavitation is induced in cold deuterated acetone. The methods and procedures in collecting these data have been independently reviewed by a relevant ORNL expert in the field.”
Quoting from Shapira: “The [Taleyarkhan group’s] paper also presents data which show excess of nuclear radiation (neutrons/gammas) production when cavitation is induced in deuterated acetone.”
Related news article: http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/07/22/ornl-nuclear-cavitation-surprise-in-shapira-saltmarsh-raw-data-part-5/
Original source reference: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/2001/2001ORNL-Shapira-Neutronics-Review12-19-01.pdf
To summarize the Oak Ridge matter:
For 10 years, the public’s understanding of this research has been that 1) Shapira and Saltmarsh made their own independent replication of the Taleyarkhan group's experiment, 2) in doing so, they failed to replicate the group's work, and 3) by this disconfirmation, they proved that the original experiment by the Taleyarkhan group was wrong.
The New Energy Times investigation found that 1) Shapira and Saltmarsh did not perform their own experimental replication, 2) they measured data from an experiment set up and operated by the Taleyarkhan group, 3) the data they took was positive and confirmed the group's claim, 4) internal documents revealed how Shapira and Saltmarsh attempted but failed to hide the data from Oak Ridge management and 5) Shapira and Saltmarsh attempted to hide and succeeded in hiding the data from the public.
StevenBKrivit ( talk) 19:02, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
“None of the investigations examined the research itself.” This needs a citation.-- Solomonfromfinland ( talk) 01:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
2H Plasma smashed to 3H BEC Wall. H means hydrogen. The numbers are isotopes. BEC means bose-eistein condensate
This is not cold fusion by any means! The BECed 3H is only a spread net to capture with more inertia the supefast 2H plasma!
It works in the labs. It is considered a standardised method and has nothing to do with BEC fusion.
Here BEC plays only the role of the high inertia spread 3H net. The main job is done by supehot 2H plasma.
No claims fot cold fusion here, just a BEC 3H net. It is a simple BEC, and the plasma a classic plasma,
but to make it extra hot and to control it, you need some bucks to build it right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.84.196.37 ( talk) 02:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Is it note worthy for the article that Gizmodo just did an article on this form of fusion (alternatively names "First Light Fusion" apparently) and noted the earliest speculation was from a by-product of an experiment in "1934" sonoluminescene. I don't "do" science articles so wondered if it had a place in the "Original experiments" section to show the development in knowledge. Article link here Jonjonjohny ( talk) 20:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
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