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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
persistent vandalism / personal attack
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I'm sorry but once again, BIGCAT82 is cherry picking sources to support his bias for tigers versus bears. In no section of the source where it claims 22 bears versus 12 tigers were killed in confrontations does it mention the size of either animal, nor distinguish from predation. He has failed again and again to show valid sourced material of 600 pound plus adult bears being killed by tigers. In the tiger article like this one, he has removed valid sourced material and cherry picked bits of "peer reviewed" material. However careful examination of the sources reveals original resource and stacking in a way to make it sound like tigers regularly dominate adult bears which other sources have proven again and again is not the case. The truth is BOTH animals kill each other, bears have been DOCUMENTED killing fully grown adult male tigers (see past sources), and that they REGULARLY follow tigers without showing fear, NOT rarely. Brown bears predated on by tigers are generally under 400 pounds and smaller than the tiger. Now the source here states up to 40% of a tiger's diet is bears, which contradicts his other sources, and he's cool with it? BIAS, ORIGINAL RESEARCH, VANDALISM, and violation of wiki's NPOV. Also, this forum contains the SAME PEER REVIEWED SOURCES Bigcat uses, and clearly it is stated that of the bears killed, NONE were adult males. http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9342882/1/ Forums aren't generally allowed as sources on the article itself, but it IS fair to point out this forum contains the SAME peer reviewed authors he cites stating no male adult bears were killed. Bigcat82 also complained about "undue weight" being given to bears in the tiger article, but he has turned around and done the same with the bear article. Clearly just a big cat fanboy cherry picking data. And now even COUGARS regularly dominate brown bears according to him? Guys, the neutrality of our bear and tiger articles is SHOT. Tigers DO prey on brown bears, but ALMOST ALWAYS cubs and subadult females. Even if we don't change the articles, I think it's fair to at least put a tag that "the neutrality of this article or section is disputed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.214.44 ( talk) 10:19, 1 November 2014 (UTC) Again, bigcat82, the forum CITES THE SAME PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL! So the source is the JOURNAL, NOT THE FORUM! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.214.44 ( talk) 23:40, 1 November 2014 (UTC) |
I generally agree with the most recent edits (as of November 9) from an anonymous editor, indeed, one source used to reference that brown bears flee from tigers upon encountering their tracks does report one case of that happening but reports several in which the opposite is true, the other does say that bears flee upon encountering tiger tracks but doesn't specify which species of bear and is only a short sentence statement, different to the other reference that details the cases, it should also be contradicted by the data from another of the studies referenced in the article in which says that brown bears follow tiger tracks in order to get to their kills (albeit displacing the tiger from the kill rarely happens according to their data). I also found something more regarding the 44 encounters thing, the abstract referenced in this article is not clear but the full book chapter Here: chapter 19 does not specify how many of the encounters were observed by them, it actually references 10 more previous publications along with their own data for the number of 44 encounters, as in the abstract it is broken down to how many times was contact initiated by whom but different to the abstract it specifies that this was unknown in the other 22 cases, so indeed as it was originally written, there were 22 bear deaths and 12 tiger deaths but I consider using the percentages as more appropriate. If the anonymous editor wants to change this too, go on. I'm still planning to overhaul the whole section, you can check the progress at the bottom of my sandbox. Mike.BRZ ( talk) 19:50, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Note I put this content in the article before but it was removed by the IP editor: Despite the possibility of tiger predation, some large brown bears may actually benefit from the tiger's presence by appropriating tiger kills that the bears may not be able to successfully hunt themselves. [1] I just restored it to complete the picture, as this is the only source explaining why some brown bears show no sign of fear of tigers despite possible predation by tigers. Big Cats - talk 20:17, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
edit conflict pls sign your post
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Again Bigcat, you claim the posts on the forums were peer reviewed by other forum members and fan sites? That is NOT the claim I made at all. The claim I made was that the FORUM points to studies that are peer reviewed by OTHER SCIENTISTS IN JOURNALS, many of them the SAME ones you source. The forum is not the source, nor are the people on it. THE PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL IT POINTS TO IS. I have never disputed that siberian tigers have been documented preying on brown bears. What I have disputed is that adult bears are commonly taken, especially males and especially bears over 400 - 500 pounds. Just about all examples in the sourced materials show sub - adult or small females smaller than the tiger or around the same size of the tiger taken by AMBUSH, not face to face encounters. Also, in your source bigcat, there are five mentioned cases where adult male tigers are killed. Note also in the source that the claim is made none of the bears killed were adult males. |
Wow it´s amazing that these big cat fans are also around here putting their noses and spreading their lies. They have spread an immense amount of jokes on the siberian tiger wikipedia page (like tigers hunting 450 kgs bears, which never ever was documented, not even about tigers hunting/killing adult male brown bears, let alone 450 kgs bears, which only exceptionally reach that weight in Amur), that it will have to be reported to the wikipedia moderation. Sorry to say that bears at 500 kgs, for example, don´t give a f*ck about tigers and above that they would use it as a toy. The guy who edited the siberian tiger wikipedia page (which is completely destroyed now by these fanatic guys) even use «Tigers in the snow» story book as source for some of their informations, so there you go. And they mention things and state which source has it, and when you go there, there´s nothing like they said. Bullshit! They want to make the tiger a supernatural being, but tigers on the contrary are very cautious. They seemingly don´t know nothing about tigers. And don´t care about its conservation. Ecology subject is barely improved on that page. And absurd percentages like bears being 40% of tiger menu (which also never were reported in modern studies) and that tigers can jump this and that (but the raw fact is that it never was scientifically documented)are also there. WCS published a resume in chapter 19, where they clearly said that no adult male brown bear was known to be taken during all the years of study. And yes, there´s at least one confirmed case of a adult male siberian tiger being killed by a bear. I´ll post here more evidences, but this is already food for thought. Please don´t let these guys destroy this brown bear wikipedia page, they have already done it on siberian tiger page. Bone dealers would love to use those hoaxes as argument for their sales, but we don´t need to do the same also with bears. If you want I can talk about possible changes and state why. The references are all online, but I can put short summaries and its respective references here, once on a while. And the best proof that I´m right, is that brown bears are very sucessful in areas with tigers, wolves on the other hand, aren´t.
In the very same articles he has cited, bigcats ignores the statement where it talked about five cases of adult male siberian tigers killed by bears of unknown sexes and sizes. I am with you, these big cat fans are cherry picking data and act like bears are these helpless teddy bears, when almost all cases of bears killed by tigers are bears under 400 pounds. It's like they don't know what a bear is. A 600 pound brown bear can crush the spine of a tiger with a paw swipe, let alone a 1000 pound male brown bear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.5.154 ( talk) 07:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
The very name Bigcats implies what animal he favors. All I hear are crickets chirping on the 5 adult male tigers killed by bears of unknown sexes, sizes, of species, and of the ridiculous assertion that bears are 40% of a tiger's diet. Old sources, also from peer reviewed studies in scientific journals, claim brown bears constitute 1 to 1.5% of a tigers diet, and that almost all predation is on bears the same size or smaller than the tiger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.5.154 ( talk) 08:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Bigcats, why can't you also address the forums where forum posters POINTED to peer reviewed studies of real scientists? And why did you claim I said that "other forum members" did the study and peer reviewed it, when it was citing an actual scientific journal, NOT forum members. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.5.154 ( talk) 12:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
"In Japan, a large brown bear nicknamed "Kesagake" (袈裟懸け, "kesa-style slasher") made history for causing the worst bear attack in Japanese history at Tomamae, Hokkaidō during numerous encounters during December, 1915. It killed seven people (including one pregnant woman)"
....are you fucking kidding me? Who gives a shit if it included one pregnant woman? Don't you dipshits claim that a fetus is merely a clump of cells? So much for "gender equality", lol.
I can't seem to find a reliable reference for the Ungava brown bear being named "Ursus arctos ugavaesis" - In literature it's only mentioned as Urus arctos or various common names. The spelling seems off as well, it should be something like ugavensis or ugavaensis, assuming it's valid. But i know nothing about bear taxonomy. --Animalparty-- ( talk) 16:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
There were once hundreds of brown bear subspecies in North America. Here is a link LINK The Ugavaesis brown bear was one of these names that were all grouped together (I think by Hall 1984) except for the Kodiak bear.
Raggz ( talk) 19:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The lead (or opening section) needs a complete revision to become a summary. Raggz ( talk) 19:30, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The first few occurrences of the word "grizzly" in this article seemed to presuppose that grizzly is synonymous with brown bear, and that the reader knows this. Actually,
-- Chriswaterguy talk 04:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
"The brown bear is usually called the grizzly bear in North America. It once ranged throughout much of the entire continent." [2] is inadequate. The polar bear is nearly exclusively in the northern part of NA. The range in Mexico was very restricted, next to California in Baja and a bit in Durango and another state. In Mexico I estimate that they ranged in 1-3% of Mexico. There are records from NY but I do not recall any in the SE US. Only a few made it to Texas and Kansas. The citation states: "In North America, grizzly bears (Ursus arctos) once ranged from the Pacific Ocean to the Mississippi River and from Central Mexico to the Arctic Ocean." There are records east of Mississippi. GUILDAY, J. E.1968. Grizzly bears from eastern North America. Amer. Midland Naturalist 79 (1): 247-250. Raggz ( talk) 21:44, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Extinct in Vatican? is it a joke? Corentinoger ( talk) 20:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
A discussion relevant to this article is taking place here. Montanabw (talk) 07:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
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Spotted hyenas do not occur in the same range as the brown brown bear, zoology 101, hence it is futile to compare their jaw strengths. I deleted that paragraph. Osterluzei ( talk) 06:31, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
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"It is thought to be the ancestor of the polar bear and the Kodiak bear.[16] and the Peninsular brown bears of Alaska."
Something appears to be wrong with this sentence, but I am not quite sure what. To start out with, the period before "and" doesn't make much sense. But then, what is the reference supposed to support? Only the polar bear and Kodiak bear part, or also the Peninsular bear part? The problem being that I cannot find that it supports either.
Maybe someone else can check if I just overlooked it or if there really is something wrong with this source and the claim it's supposed to support. -- 93.212.250.204 ( talk) 15:54, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
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Please change "This race tends to be an whitish blond color" to "This race tends to be a whitish blond color" Sources: http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/a-before-consonants-and-an-before-vowels-is-not-the-rule OHHELLOTHERE-SHREK2017 ( talk) 21:58, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
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67.79.195.94 ( talk) 15:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The text says there are 16 living subspecies (references 28 and 29, which agree on the 16). The tables listing the subspecies indicate that two of these are extinct (Atlas, California grizzly). Which is correct? Also two of the subspecies recognised in the given sources (gyas, stikeenensis) are listed in the former subspecies table. Seems they should be moved. Conversely the extinct Mexican grizzly should be in the former subspecies table (if going by Wilson-Reeder, ref 28, which includes it under horriblis). Anyone familiar with this subject? Jts1882 ( talk) 15:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm, well, brown bears are not universally of least concern regarding conservation status. Grizzlies are endangered and they are a type of brown bear. The California brown bear is believed to be extinct.
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
persistent vandalism / personal attack
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I'm sorry but once again, BIGCAT82 is cherry picking sources to support his bias for tigers versus bears. In no section of the source where it claims 22 bears versus 12 tigers were killed in confrontations does it mention the size of either animal, nor distinguish from predation. He has failed again and again to show valid sourced material of 600 pound plus adult bears being killed by tigers. In the tiger article like this one, he has removed valid sourced material and cherry picked bits of "peer reviewed" material. However careful examination of the sources reveals original resource and stacking in a way to make it sound like tigers regularly dominate adult bears which other sources have proven again and again is not the case. The truth is BOTH animals kill each other, bears have been DOCUMENTED killing fully grown adult male tigers (see past sources), and that they REGULARLY follow tigers without showing fear, NOT rarely. Brown bears predated on by tigers are generally under 400 pounds and smaller than the tiger. Now the source here states up to 40% of a tiger's diet is bears, which contradicts his other sources, and he's cool with it? BIAS, ORIGINAL RESEARCH, VANDALISM, and violation of wiki's NPOV. Also, this forum contains the SAME PEER REVIEWED SOURCES Bigcat uses, and clearly it is stated that of the bears killed, NONE were adult males. http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9342882/1/ Forums aren't generally allowed as sources on the article itself, but it IS fair to point out this forum contains the SAME peer reviewed authors he cites stating no male adult bears were killed. Bigcat82 also complained about "undue weight" being given to bears in the tiger article, but he has turned around and done the same with the bear article. Clearly just a big cat fanboy cherry picking data. And now even COUGARS regularly dominate brown bears according to him? Guys, the neutrality of our bear and tiger articles is SHOT. Tigers DO prey on brown bears, but ALMOST ALWAYS cubs and subadult females. Even if we don't change the articles, I think it's fair to at least put a tag that "the neutrality of this article or section is disputed." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.214.44 ( talk) 10:19, 1 November 2014 (UTC) Again, bigcat82, the forum CITES THE SAME PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL! So the source is the JOURNAL, NOT THE FORUM! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.214.44 ( talk) 23:40, 1 November 2014 (UTC) |
I generally agree with the most recent edits (as of November 9) from an anonymous editor, indeed, one source used to reference that brown bears flee from tigers upon encountering their tracks does report one case of that happening but reports several in which the opposite is true, the other does say that bears flee upon encountering tiger tracks but doesn't specify which species of bear and is only a short sentence statement, different to the other reference that details the cases, it should also be contradicted by the data from another of the studies referenced in the article in which says that brown bears follow tiger tracks in order to get to their kills (albeit displacing the tiger from the kill rarely happens according to their data). I also found something more regarding the 44 encounters thing, the abstract referenced in this article is not clear but the full book chapter Here: chapter 19 does not specify how many of the encounters were observed by them, it actually references 10 more previous publications along with their own data for the number of 44 encounters, as in the abstract it is broken down to how many times was contact initiated by whom but different to the abstract it specifies that this was unknown in the other 22 cases, so indeed as it was originally written, there were 22 bear deaths and 12 tiger deaths but I consider using the percentages as more appropriate. If the anonymous editor wants to change this too, go on. I'm still planning to overhaul the whole section, you can check the progress at the bottom of my sandbox. Mike.BRZ ( talk) 19:50, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Note I put this content in the article before but it was removed by the IP editor: Despite the possibility of tiger predation, some large brown bears may actually benefit from the tiger's presence by appropriating tiger kills that the bears may not be able to successfully hunt themselves. [1] I just restored it to complete the picture, as this is the only source explaining why some brown bears show no sign of fear of tigers despite possible predation by tigers. Big Cats - talk 20:17, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
edit conflict pls sign your post
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Again Bigcat, you claim the posts on the forums were peer reviewed by other forum members and fan sites? That is NOT the claim I made at all. The claim I made was that the FORUM points to studies that are peer reviewed by OTHER SCIENTISTS IN JOURNALS, many of them the SAME ones you source. The forum is not the source, nor are the people on it. THE PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL IT POINTS TO IS. I have never disputed that siberian tigers have been documented preying on brown bears. What I have disputed is that adult bears are commonly taken, especially males and especially bears over 400 - 500 pounds. Just about all examples in the sourced materials show sub - adult or small females smaller than the tiger or around the same size of the tiger taken by AMBUSH, not face to face encounters. Also, in your source bigcat, there are five mentioned cases where adult male tigers are killed. Note also in the source that the claim is made none of the bears killed were adult males. |
Wow it´s amazing that these big cat fans are also around here putting their noses and spreading their lies. They have spread an immense amount of jokes on the siberian tiger wikipedia page (like tigers hunting 450 kgs bears, which never ever was documented, not even about tigers hunting/killing adult male brown bears, let alone 450 kgs bears, which only exceptionally reach that weight in Amur), that it will have to be reported to the wikipedia moderation. Sorry to say that bears at 500 kgs, for example, don´t give a f*ck about tigers and above that they would use it as a toy. The guy who edited the siberian tiger wikipedia page (which is completely destroyed now by these fanatic guys) even use «Tigers in the snow» story book as source for some of their informations, so there you go. And they mention things and state which source has it, and when you go there, there´s nothing like they said. Bullshit! They want to make the tiger a supernatural being, but tigers on the contrary are very cautious. They seemingly don´t know nothing about tigers. And don´t care about its conservation. Ecology subject is barely improved on that page. And absurd percentages like bears being 40% of tiger menu (which also never were reported in modern studies) and that tigers can jump this and that (but the raw fact is that it never was scientifically documented)are also there. WCS published a resume in chapter 19, where they clearly said that no adult male brown bear was known to be taken during all the years of study. And yes, there´s at least one confirmed case of a adult male siberian tiger being killed by a bear. I´ll post here more evidences, but this is already food for thought. Please don´t let these guys destroy this brown bear wikipedia page, they have already done it on siberian tiger page. Bone dealers would love to use those hoaxes as argument for their sales, but we don´t need to do the same also with bears. If you want I can talk about possible changes and state why. The references are all online, but I can put short summaries and its respective references here, once on a while. And the best proof that I´m right, is that brown bears are very sucessful in areas with tigers, wolves on the other hand, aren´t.
In the very same articles he has cited, bigcats ignores the statement where it talked about five cases of adult male siberian tigers killed by bears of unknown sexes and sizes. I am with you, these big cat fans are cherry picking data and act like bears are these helpless teddy bears, when almost all cases of bears killed by tigers are bears under 400 pounds. It's like they don't know what a bear is. A 600 pound brown bear can crush the spine of a tiger with a paw swipe, let alone a 1000 pound male brown bear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.5.154 ( talk) 07:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
The very name Bigcats implies what animal he favors. All I hear are crickets chirping on the 5 adult male tigers killed by bears of unknown sexes, sizes, of species, and of the ridiculous assertion that bears are 40% of a tiger's diet. Old sources, also from peer reviewed studies in scientific journals, claim brown bears constitute 1 to 1.5% of a tigers diet, and that almost all predation is on bears the same size or smaller than the tiger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.5.154 ( talk) 08:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Bigcats, why can't you also address the forums where forum posters POINTED to peer reviewed studies of real scientists? And why did you claim I said that "other forum members" did the study and peer reviewed it, when it was citing an actual scientific journal, NOT forum members. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.5.154 ( talk) 12:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
"In Japan, a large brown bear nicknamed "Kesagake" (袈裟懸け, "kesa-style slasher") made history for causing the worst bear attack in Japanese history at Tomamae, Hokkaidō during numerous encounters during December, 1915. It killed seven people (including one pregnant woman)"
....are you fucking kidding me? Who gives a shit if it included one pregnant woman? Don't you dipshits claim that a fetus is merely a clump of cells? So much for "gender equality", lol.
I can't seem to find a reliable reference for the Ungava brown bear being named "Ursus arctos ugavaesis" - In literature it's only mentioned as Urus arctos or various common names. The spelling seems off as well, it should be something like ugavensis or ugavaensis, assuming it's valid. But i know nothing about bear taxonomy. --Animalparty-- ( talk) 16:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
There were once hundreds of brown bear subspecies in North America. Here is a link LINK The Ugavaesis brown bear was one of these names that were all grouped together (I think by Hall 1984) except for the Kodiak bear.
Raggz ( talk) 19:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The lead (or opening section) needs a complete revision to become a summary. Raggz ( talk) 19:30, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The first few occurrences of the word "grizzly" in this article seemed to presuppose that grizzly is synonymous with brown bear, and that the reader knows this. Actually,
-- Chriswaterguy talk 04:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
"The brown bear is usually called the grizzly bear in North America. It once ranged throughout much of the entire continent." [2] is inadequate. The polar bear is nearly exclusively in the northern part of NA. The range in Mexico was very restricted, next to California in Baja and a bit in Durango and another state. In Mexico I estimate that they ranged in 1-3% of Mexico. There are records from NY but I do not recall any in the SE US. Only a few made it to Texas and Kansas. The citation states: "In North America, grizzly bears (Ursus arctos) once ranged from the Pacific Ocean to the Mississippi River and from Central Mexico to the Arctic Ocean." There are records east of Mississippi. GUILDAY, J. E.1968. Grizzly bears from eastern North America. Amer. Midland Naturalist 79 (1): 247-250. Raggz ( talk) 21:44, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Extinct in Vatican? is it a joke? Corentinoger ( talk) 20:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
A discussion relevant to this article is taking place here. Montanabw (talk) 07:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
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Spotted hyenas do not occur in the same range as the brown brown bear, zoology 101, hence it is futile to compare their jaw strengths. I deleted that paragraph. Osterluzei ( talk) 06:31, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:33, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
"It is thought to be the ancestor of the polar bear and the Kodiak bear.[16] and the Peninsular brown bears of Alaska."
Something appears to be wrong with this sentence, but I am not quite sure what. To start out with, the period before "and" doesn't make much sense. But then, what is the reference supposed to support? Only the polar bear and Kodiak bear part, or also the Peninsular bear part? The problem being that I cannot find that it supports either.
Maybe someone else can check if I just overlooked it or if there really is something wrong with this source and the claim it's supposed to support. -- 93.212.250.204 ( talk) 15:54, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
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Please change "This race tends to be an whitish blond color" to "This race tends to be a whitish blond color" Sources: http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/a-before-consonants-and-an-before-vowels-is-not-the-rule OHHELLOTHERE-SHREK2017 ( talk) 21:58, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
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67.79.195.94 ( talk) 15:19, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The text says there are 16 living subspecies (references 28 and 29, which agree on the 16). The tables listing the subspecies indicate that two of these are extinct (Atlas, California grizzly). Which is correct? Also two of the subspecies recognised in the given sources (gyas, stikeenensis) are listed in the former subspecies table. Seems they should be moved. Conversely the extinct Mexican grizzly should be in the former subspecies table (if going by Wilson-Reeder, ref 28, which includes it under horriblis). Anyone familiar with this subject? Jts1882 ( talk) 15:34, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm, well, brown bears are not universally of least concern regarding conservation status. Grizzlies are endangered and they are a type of brown bear. The California brown bear is believed to be extinct.
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