![]() | A fact from Bronze Head from Ife appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 23 December 2013 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bronze Head from Ife. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:01, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Haldir Marchwarden: I explained my edits in the notes and asked you to engage in Talk instead of edit warring/reverting but you have continued to revert and not discuss. So I am starting a discussion here. Hopefully we can come to a resolution. Regarding your recent edits, the source does not seem to say that Muslim scholars or artisans were present at Ife, and the known direct contact with Muslims that did existed there was with the Sahel states (as interaction with them is mentioned in the source). The source mentions the trans-Saharan trade, which directly affected the Sahel states (like those of Mali, the Hausa, Kanem, etc. and not forest states like Ife, Igbo-Ukwu, etc., whose contact was with Sahelians rather than Arabs (as far as we know). The source does not say that Muslim scholars or artisans were specifically at Ife, but rather at West African cities (only explicitly mentioning the region or West Africa that exported gold to Europe, which was not Ife). The source vaguely mentions that Ife existed in the context of the trans-Saharan trade, which is certainly true in the sense that it belonged to a network of trade that included the African Sahel kingdoms, which as the source says, "in turn" had contact with traders from the Mediterranean world.
As the BBC source says: "Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad."
Adding material sating that there was Arab, Islamic, or Mediterranean contact at Ife (which is not explicit in the source) misleadingly gives the impression that Ife's art and culture was the result of Islamic or Mediterranean contact, which is not stated in the source and not in evidence. Mentioning "contact with the Islamic world is also somewhat misleading, since it would seem to imply an awareness or broad contact with Islam or a deep influence from Islam, when all that is explicit in the source is that Ife had direct contact with Sahelian cultures that were Muslim.
I also see that you added the following:
"The Yoruba were connected via trade routes to Northern Africa and Islamic culture, including that of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa.[3] Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3] Ife became a cosmopolitan city state attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."[3]
However, the full quote is:
"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons.
In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria. Its rulers promoted crafts, particularly copper-alloy casting, weaving, and bead-making. Its legacy includes outstanding naturalistic works of art in stone, terracotta and metal."
It speaks of West Africa generally but does not state that Ife was a place where Muslim merchants, artisans, or scholars went (it does not say which cities were), but rather refers to the parts of West Africa that were a source of gold for Europe, which was the Sahel/Savanna, especially the Ghana, Mali, and Songhai Empires, not Ife/southern Nigeria. Islam spread into large areas of the Sahel region (and some of the savanna) but it never spread to Ice (which was and remained a non-Islamic culture — Islam did not spread to the Yoruba region until much later).
It only says that Ife grew "in this context", which is fairly vague and may mean in the context of interaction with the African states that had been influenced by the Islamic world in the aforementioned way (since the source says that traded with them)
It is not stated in the source anywhere the Ife specifically (or the Yoruba region specifically) attracted Muslim scholars, clerics, or artisans, nor that Islam ever spread to Ife. It is not at all clear that the source's mention that "Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam" refers to Ife. Adding an interpretation that is not explicitly stated in the source is against Wikipedia policies (please see WP:NOR).
Regarding the statement that there were no known European contacts at the time, that does seem to be the case since the earlier known contact of European with Ife were much later (though Europeans had reached other parts of West Africa by then). However, it seems to that both the statement that there may have been no European envoys and the statement that there ws Islamic contact are unecessary and of questionable relevance. I am fine with the excluding the first statement (about Europeans) but I also think the second (about Islam and indirect contact with North Africa) should probably be removed. All it seems to do is misleading imply (in the lede no less) that the Ife head was somehow influenced or stimulated by Islamic or Mediterranean culture (which is a claim that is not made either in this source or in a any reliable source it is generally considered to be an indigenous Africa development). The article is about an Ife artistic artifact, the nature of Ife's trade links or contacts of lack thereof with other regions seems beside the point since no explicit connection between that and the art is mentioned in the source.
However, I think that, if the sentence is to be kept, my edit, mentioning direct contact with the Islamic Sahel and indirect trade contacts with North Africa and Andalucia accurately reflects what is explicitly stated in the source.
Your recent edit summary does not seem to make respond or engage with the points had I made in my notes. You wrote: "The statement of no European contact lacks a source itself. What i added to the article has sources, and sticks to them."
But I never removed your sources. I simply edited the statements you had made, explaining why my changes were better supported by the sources and tried to explain the issues with what you had written. And my notes made no mention the issue of contact with Europe.
If you have disagreements, please discuss here, thank you.
Skllagyook (
talk) 20:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
@
Haldir Marchwarden: I know what the full quote says. But it says that Islamic scholars, artisans, etc. were present at "African cities" after having discussed many West African cities (some of which were Muslim or islamized and some of which were not) and regions. But this does not mean that those are true of Ife specifically, nor does it say that . It does not say which African cities this applies to, and only says that Ife grew in a West African "context" where those things were happening (because it was connected to a variety of places by trade. Then, after discussing the "context", it goes (when talking specifically of Ife) on to talk about how Ife (in its own right) was a cosmopolotan and a center for trade and crafts etc. I think that a more full quote that contextuallizes what you added should be included (in the "Impact on art history" section of the article) instead of de-contextualized sections. I would add:
"Ife was part of a network connected to both local and long-distance trade, including the Saharan trade via the Islamic kingdoms of the African Sahel which connected to the Islamic Mediterranean and world."
And then (from the source):
"Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad."
"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons.
In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria."
This puts it all into context for the reader. This way the source remains and nothing relevant is excluded. Skllagyook ( talk) 11:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from Bronze Head from Ife appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 23 December 2013 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bronze Head from Ife. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:01, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Haldir Marchwarden: I explained my edits in the notes and asked you to engage in Talk instead of edit warring/reverting but you have continued to revert and not discuss. So I am starting a discussion here. Hopefully we can come to a resolution. Regarding your recent edits, the source does not seem to say that Muslim scholars or artisans were present at Ife, and the known direct contact with Muslims that did existed there was with the Sahel states (as interaction with them is mentioned in the source). The source mentions the trans-Saharan trade, which directly affected the Sahel states (like those of Mali, the Hausa, Kanem, etc. and not forest states like Ife, Igbo-Ukwu, etc., whose contact was with Sahelians rather than Arabs (as far as we know). The source does not say that Muslim scholars or artisans were specifically at Ife, but rather at West African cities (only explicitly mentioning the region or West Africa that exported gold to Europe, which was not Ife). The source vaguely mentions that Ife existed in the context of the trans-Saharan trade, which is certainly true in the sense that it belonged to a network of trade that included the African Sahel kingdoms, which as the source says, "in turn" had contact with traders from the Mediterranean world.
As the BBC source says: "Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad."
Adding material sating that there was Arab, Islamic, or Mediterranean contact at Ife (which is not explicit in the source) misleadingly gives the impression that Ife's art and culture was the result of Islamic or Mediterranean contact, which is not stated in the source and not in evidence. Mentioning "contact with the Islamic world is also somewhat misleading, since it would seem to imply an awareness or broad contact with Islam or a deep influence from Islam, when all that is explicit in the source is that Ife had direct contact with Sahelian cultures that were Muslim.
I also see that you added the following:
"The Yoruba were connected via trade routes to Northern Africa and Islamic culture, including that of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa.[3] Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3] Ife became a cosmopolitan city state attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."[3]
However, the full quote is:
"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons.
In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria. Its rulers promoted crafts, particularly copper-alloy casting, weaving, and bead-making. Its legacy includes outstanding naturalistic works of art in stone, terracotta and metal."
It speaks of West Africa generally but does not state that Ife was a place where Muslim merchants, artisans, or scholars went (it does not say which cities were), but rather refers to the parts of West Africa that were a source of gold for Europe, which was the Sahel/Savanna, especially the Ghana, Mali, and Songhai Empires, not Ife/southern Nigeria. Islam spread into large areas of the Sahel region (and some of the savanna) but it never spread to Ice (which was and remained a non-Islamic culture — Islam did not spread to the Yoruba region until much later).
It only says that Ife grew "in this context", which is fairly vague and may mean in the context of interaction with the African states that had been influenced by the Islamic world in the aforementioned way (since the source says that traded with them)
It is not stated in the source anywhere the Ife specifically (or the Yoruba region specifically) attracted Muslim scholars, clerics, or artisans, nor that Islam ever spread to Ife. It is not at all clear that the source's mention that "Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam" refers to Ife. Adding an interpretation that is not explicitly stated in the source is against Wikipedia policies (please see WP:NOR).
Regarding the statement that there were no known European contacts at the time, that does seem to be the case since the earlier known contact of European with Ife were much later (though Europeans had reached other parts of West Africa by then). However, it seems to that both the statement that there may have been no European envoys and the statement that there ws Islamic contact are unecessary and of questionable relevance. I am fine with the excluding the first statement (about Europeans) but I also think the second (about Islam and indirect contact with North Africa) should probably be removed. All it seems to do is misleading imply (in the lede no less) that the Ife head was somehow influenced or stimulated by Islamic or Mediterranean culture (which is a claim that is not made either in this source or in a any reliable source it is generally considered to be an indigenous Africa development). The article is about an Ife artistic artifact, the nature of Ife's trade links or contacts of lack thereof with other regions seems beside the point since no explicit connection between that and the art is mentioned in the source.
However, I think that, if the sentence is to be kept, my edit, mentioning direct contact with the Islamic Sahel and indirect trade contacts with North Africa and Andalucia accurately reflects what is explicitly stated in the source.
Your recent edit summary does not seem to make respond or engage with the points had I made in my notes. You wrote: "The statement of no European contact lacks a source itself. What i added to the article has sources, and sticks to them."
But I never removed your sources. I simply edited the statements you had made, explaining why my changes were better supported by the sources and tried to explain the issues with what you had written. And my notes made no mention the issue of contact with Europe.
If you have disagreements, please discuss here, thank you.
Skllagyook (
talk) 20:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
@
Haldir Marchwarden: I know what the full quote says. But it says that Islamic scholars, artisans, etc. were present at "African cities" after having discussed many West African cities (some of which were Muslim or islamized and some of which were not) and regions. But this does not mean that those are true of Ife specifically, nor does it say that . It does not say which African cities this applies to, and only says that Ife grew in a West African "context" where those things were happening (because it was connected to a variety of places by trade. Then, after discussing the "context", it goes (when talking specifically of Ife) on to talk about how Ife (in its own right) was a cosmopolotan and a center for trade and crafts etc. I think that a more full quote that contextuallizes what you added should be included (in the "Impact on art history" section of the article) instead of de-contextualized sections. I would add:
"Ife was part of a network connected to both local and long-distance trade, including the Saharan trade via the Islamic kingdoms of the African Sahel which connected to the Islamic Mediterranean and world."
And then (from the source):
"Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad."
"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons.
In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria."
This puts it all into context for the reader. This way the source remains and nothing relevant is excluded. Skllagyook ( talk) 11:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)