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I'm aware this topic has been raised in a another discussion on this page, however this was many years ago and I would like to be more direct here.
Why is Irish nobility being mentioned in an article about British nobility? Irish people are not, and never have been, British. Irish systems predate their British counterparts by arguably a thousand a years or more. Any links between the the Irish and British nobility does not change the fact that Irish nobility does not fall under the category of "British". Even without that, there is a simple case here of the content within the article not reflecting upon the title of the page. I would strongly suggest removing the section of Irish people altogether, however if other editors provide solid reasoning and insist on keeping it, I would, at the very least, suggest changing the name of the article. Iamdmonah ( talk) 00:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from 1801 to 1922. The Irish were British subjects. Dimadick ( talk) 14:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
I do feel that discussion of Gaelic nobility is misplaced in this article as it seems these never had legal status within the the English/British governing system. In other words, it may have been Irish nobility but it was British nobility. We see that the English controlled Irish governments established their own system of Irish peerage and knighthood that appears to have replaced the older Gailic nobility. Ltwin ( talk) 01:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
The class that is equivalent to the nobility of the Continent consists of all British armigers. It has been confirmed and ruled several times that a grant of arms is in fact a grant of hereditary nobility. Nobility associations, especially CILANE, and the Order of Malta all see untitled armigers as belonging to the British nobility. Innes of Learney was NOT the only person to stress this.
Arms - armigerousness confers the rank of Gentleman - are the lowest common denominator of British nobility. Any male-line descendant of a Peer, Baronet or Knight is at least a Gentleman. Life peerages and Knighthoods are in fact grants of hereditary nobility, at least if the grantee obtains armorial bearings.
Feudal titles are nowadays regarded mostly not as having an ennobling quality themselves, but rather as augmentations of nobility - i.e. if you are a Gentleman and you purchase a Lordship of the Manor you become an Esquire, and Scottish Feudal Barons could be classified as a higher order of Esquires. Artem Wiktorowitsch Nazarov ( talk) 22:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
But between Cornwall and Norfolk are Lancaster, Clarence, York, Gloucester, Hereford, Exeter, Surrey. One of these is a county; five are a county town and/or a county's eponymous city; and … well, we're not sure what Clarence is. Suggest rephrasing this sentence. — Tamfang ( talk) 03:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
British nobility article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm aware this topic has been raised in a another discussion on this page, however this was many years ago and I would like to be more direct here.
Why is Irish nobility being mentioned in an article about British nobility? Irish people are not, and never have been, British. Irish systems predate their British counterparts by arguably a thousand a years or more. Any links between the the Irish and British nobility does not change the fact that Irish nobility does not fall under the category of "British". Even without that, there is a simple case here of the content within the article not reflecting upon the title of the page. I would strongly suggest removing the section of Irish people altogether, however if other editors provide solid reasoning and insist on keeping it, I would, at the very least, suggest changing the name of the article. Iamdmonah ( talk) 00:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from 1801 to 1922. The Irish were British subjects. Dimadick ( talk) 14:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
I do feel that discussion of Gaelic nobility is misplaced in this article as it seems these never had legal status within the the English/British governing system. In other words, it may have been Irish nobility but it was British nobility. We see that the English controlled Irish governments established their own system of Irish peerage and knighthood that appears to have replaced the older Gailic nobility. Ltwin ( talk) 01:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
The class that is equivalent to the nobility of the Continent consists of all British armigers. It has been confirmed and ruled several times that a grant of arms is in fact a grant of hereditary nobility. Nobility associations, especially CILANE, and the Order of Malta all see untitled armigers as belonging to the British nobility. Innes of Learney was NOT the only person to stress this.
Arms - armigerousness confers the rank of Gentleman - are the lowest common denominator of British nobility. Any male-line descendant of a Peer, Baronet or Knight is at least a Gentleman. Life peerages and Knighthoods are in fact grants of hereditary nobility, at least if the grantee obtains armorial bearings.
Feudal titles are nowadays regarded mostly not as having an ennobling quality themselves, but rather as augmentations of nobility - i.e. if you are a Gentleman and you purchase a Lordship of the Manor you become an Esquire, and Scottish Feudal Barons could be classified as a higher order of Esquires. Artem Wiktorowitsch Nazarov ( talk) 22:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
But between Cornwall and Norfolk are Lancaster, Clarence, York, Gloucester, Hereford, Exeter, Surrey. One of these is a county; five are a county town and/or a county's eponymous city; and … well, we're not sure what Clarence is. Suggest rephrasing this sentence. — Tamfang ( talk) 03:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)