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Why doesn't the section on race mention that they have one Jewish councillor Patricia Richardson (politician)? 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 12:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Certainly the all white staus is currently under legal review as the Equalities Commission are in correspondence with them on this issue, but I refer you once again to statements made by Lee Barnes the BNP "legal officer" (& would-be epic poet)in theb case of Redfearn v Serco that to discriminate against an employee on th ebasis of BNP membership was effectively racial discrimination, precisely because they ARE exclusively white. If they are not then Bagel Barnes was fibbing to the tribunal. I am not saying he was because that might be libellous.-- Streona ( talk) 14:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
principle of national sovereignty in all British affairs. It is pledged to the restoration of the unity and integrity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It believes that the indigenous peoples of the entire British Isles, and their descendants overseas, form a single brotherhood of peoples, and is pledged therefore to adapt or create political, cultural, economic and military institutions with the aim of fostering the closest possible partnership between these peoples. (b) The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948. 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 02:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the reference Slatersteven, particularly the following exerpt from the judgement
Lord Justice Mummery:
Introduction
A claim for race discrimination contrary to the Race Relations Act 1976, as amended (the 1976 Act) was brought in the employment tribunal by a member of the British National Party (BNP) against his former employer. According to its constitution the membership of the BNP is confined to white people... (my emphasis. Bagel Barnes (as I believe he is known to friends & enemies alike) represented him at the original tribunal. my point is that the BNP is a whites-only organisation according to Barnes and Lord justice Mummery.-- Streona ( talk) 06:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
http://www.creideasach.co.uk/Case_Reviews/Redfearn.htm states that “by dismissing him, on the ground of the Asian race and ethnic origin of the people [being] transported”. Not that he was white (that was the case for appeal) also see http://www.conferencebarristers.com/files/Conference_Chambers_January_Newsletter.pdf.
Good point, Steven. The full text of the appeal case is available online, and you are right that redfearn's counsel agued as you have said, but LJ Mummery also says that the grounds had changed from the line put forward at the original tribunal by "a different representative" i.e. Lee Barnes, the BNPs amateur brief, who is no more legally qualified than I am, that the grounds were that the BNP were an all-white organisation. I refer to paragraph 16 of LJ Mummery's judgement
The employment tribunal dealt with both direct and indirect discrimination. Unfortunately, there was no prior case management conference to identify the issues for the hearing and no amendment was ever made to the originating application formulating the basis of the indirect discrimination claim. The case was, however, argued at the hearing on behalf of Mr Redfearn (who then had different representation than he has now) along the lines that "since the BNP is a whites only party the dismissal is indirect racial discrimination." Serco was challenged to show that such discrimination was justified. In Mr Redfearn's skeleton argument in the employment tribunal reliance was also placed on section 1(1)(b) of the 1976 Act. The submission was that it followed from the fact that
"membership of the BNP was limited to whites.. that [Serco] in deciding that membership of the BNP was incompatible with the Applicant's continued employment [Serco ] was imposing a requirement such that the proportion of persons of his racial group was 'considerably smaller than the proportion of persons not of that racial group'. This applies a fortiori in this case because the number of non-white persons who would not be able to satisfy the requirement (of not belonging to the BNP) is not only 'considerably smaller' than the proportion of whites but infinitely less ie none at all."
www.emplaw.co.uk/free/4frame/data/2005irlr744.htm -
Interestingly the case is listed as 2006 although the dismissal took place in June 2005 so whether the 8th or 9th edition of the BNP Constitution was being cited requires further inquiry.-- Streona ( talk) 09:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry I went off on holiday just after this & got cought up in revising for Mastermind. Still it now looks as though this issue will be taken to court by the Equalities Commission. I personally think that this is a waste of time since griffin introduced the idea of an "ethnic liaison committee" some years ago in the expectation of such a case and has told BNP members at a recent "fun day" (if golliwog-burning is your idea of fun)that the party would be structured in such a way as to retain power in the hands of the leadership and not by any putative future ethnic minotrity members. Protecting the rights of ethnic minorities who genuinely wish to join the BNP does seem a bit like providing free combs for the bald.-- Streona ( talk) 16:31, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
According to the renowned site Political Compass [1]: "It's muddled thinking to simply describe the likes of the British National Party as "extreme right". The truth is that on issues like health, transport, housing, protectionism and globalisation, their economics are left of Labour, let alone the Conservatives. It's in areas like police power, military power, school discipline, law and order, race and nationalism that the BNP's real extremism - as authoritarians - is clear.". Look on the "compass" and you can see that the BNP is in reality more economically left than Labour Party, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. It seems however to be a universal misuse of the word "far-right", so that it might not really matter anyways. - GabaG ( talk) 21:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Hitler ate sugar, you know. Sceptre ( talk) 22:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Would that make the BNP have a socialist point of view towards economics then? ( 86.169.125.18 ( talk) 19:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
It's been said multiple times on the talk page before but this article is way too long; it far exceeds Wikipedia's recommended size. I don't think we should delete anything significant, that's why the article needs to be split.
I think the history section should be split with a summarised version on this page and a new page created: History of the British National Party. Also lot of the information in the electoral performance section should be moved into the main BNP election results page, which at the moment is just mainly tables. The legal issues section could also be split into a new article as well. MaesterTonberry ( talk) 20:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The article currently claims that the bnp took this phrase from Gordon Brown, whereas he famously borrowed it from them and the NF. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7097837.stm 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 23:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Its surprising that there's no mention of the BNP's economic policy, which is key info on any party
from the New statesman there's this
"A brief skim through BNP manifesto literature brings to light proposals for the following: large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries. Under Griffin, the modern-day far right has positioned itself to the left of Labour."
link
www.newstatesman.com/europe/2009/04/bnp-european-party-british
I think something like this should be added
2.4 Economic policy
The BNP advocates a socialist economic policy, to the left of most major British parties. Its manifesto proposes large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection and the nationalisation of key industries.
Then cite the newstatesman article
any agreements? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.54.106.121 (
talk •
contribs) 17:16, 27 July 2009
Can you link to a citation/credible website for the stuff about cutting foreign aid?
cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.106.121 ( talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've read the BNP economic policy described as "left" by a lot of sources used to mean "anti-capitalist". The traditional far right (Fascist) is usually corporatist which is different to what this manifesto states .The BNP policy is closer to traditional democratic socialism before it morphed into whats now called social-democracy or the modern left which ironically is closer to corporatism.
How about using anti-capitalist if people don't like left
2.4 Economic policy
The BNP advocates an anti-capitalist economic policy. Its manifesto proposes large increases in state pensions, more money for the NHS, improved worker protection and the nationalisation of key industries [news statesman citation]. It proposes to reduce free trade and to end foreign aid [BNP website citation]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.106.121 ( talk) 21:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
All of the British political party articles are in a very poor state IMO. If you compare to the Republican Party article for the one in the USA, which is very good as they have an indepth presentation of their policies and political positions. On the Labour Party article for the UK party, it just mentions history, no really clear, layed out presentation of their current explicit policies. Its a bit of a shambles really. Same with this one. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 19:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a source that should be incorporated in the article. "In a statement it said: "The BNP's membership criteria appear to restrict membership to those within what the BNP regards as particular 'ethnic groups' and those whose skin colour is white. This exclusion is contrary to the Race Relations Act.
"The commission believes the BNP's constitution and membership criteria are discriminatory and, further, that the continued publication of them on the BNP website is unlawful.
"It has therefore issued county court proceedings against party leader Nick Griffin and two other officials" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8218397.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 16:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
On ideology it says facism with sevral refrences however reading og there official website they claim not to be facist and the informaworld.com site has Nationalism and Racism listed as a subject only but no mention of them being racist, facists and does not prove it on the site. The google books links to a book talking about racism but has no mention of the bnp on the site however I admit I have not read the book that is listed. The further two are books that I have not read. The final refrence talks about the london bombings, BNP and facism but does not prove theese are linked together. Theese refrences may not be the best refrences beacuse they do not prove the BNP is facist and on the BNP website it claims to be nationalists but not facists. I suspect the refrences may also be bias because they are against the BNP party however I have no supporting evidence for this claim but it is clear the refrences do not prove the BNP is facist. I would like your view on thee subject I have done some reading on the BNP and don't find any reliable evindence that isn't bias to prove the BNP is facist. ROOSTER ( talk) 19:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Discussions on this talk page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please […] look in the archives or FAQ section before contributing.
OK I have read the FAQ and although I do disagree I suppose it's fair to say it. 90.195.27.132 ( talk) 23:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
FYI; today's News of the World has a video and undercover report of a recent BNP event:
which should be mentioned here. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
BNP fun day- there's an oxymoron for you -- Streona ( talk) 16:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The day ANY article from the News of the world is used as a source/reference on Wikipedia will be the day I leave and never come back!-- Frank Fontaine ( talk) 09:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Referencing a news story from a news paper seems sensible and normal. What is your objection based on? It is clear the story is factual and citing the reference allows people such as yourself to judge the evidence according to your own tabloid prejudices. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 20:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The article incorrectly labels the BNP as 'far-right'. However, the positions held by the party and expressed in their manifesto are national socialist policies, and 'far-left' in nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dantubb ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree with much of the above unless anyone objects i will amend this to say far left instead of far right. Stupidstudent ( talk) 19:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Only a supporter of the bnp could agree with this change. The bnp is a ' volkish ' party that seeks to return britain to a whiteness they approve of. This suspicion and hatred of non whites and thier typically fascist campaigning style clearly makes them worthy of the title ' far right '. I am disspointewd to see that that bnp supporters are subverting this page for politicol purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 20:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Defining a party as liberal or conservative, or of the left or right often becomes problematic. In systems that seem to be, more or less, dominated by two parties; Canada, United States, Britain and Australia, the right parties; Conservative, Republican, Conservative and Liberal respectively, generally favor a more free trade (economic liberalism) and social conservatism (on gays, immigrants, marriage, ect.) Their opponents of the left; Liberal, Democratic, Labor, and Labor, respectively, generally support a larger role for the state in the economy and a more progressive view on society (again on gays, immigrants, marriage, ect.) Even though I am already stretching generalizations to the max, the definitions would become more muddled if one were to include non-anglophonic nations, or multi-party systems, or different time periods. If the BNP is volkish in nature, along the lines of the Nazi party, it possesses the social conservatives (and much more) of the conservative parties. But Anton Drexler lacked the economic liberalism. The economic policies of the Nazi party was not a free market policy. It would seem that the idea of ultra-nationalist or volkism would be better terms for the BNP. The question would be what is far right? If far right is a uncompromising member of a conservative party, then the definition does not fit. If it is a person of a extrema nationalist persuasion, then the definition is apt. ( RorikStrindberg ( talk) 06:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC))
How can "far right" be "defined" by the BNP? Surely it is the other way around. Going back to first principles, and the French origins of the term, the BNP as a "revolutionary" party has to be far left. 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 23:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not a BNP suporter. So much for assuming good faith, at least have the guts to sign your posts if you atack somebody. It just reads to me that the BNP's polices listed on this page is Far left. One does not need to be right wing to be racist. Remember stalin was just as good at persequting minorities as Hitler. Stupidstudent ( talk) 22:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I strongly object to the current definition of the BNP as a 'far right' party. The fact that many established commentators thus describe it has (in my view) more to do the with overwhelming liberal-left bias of our current orthodoxy than it has to do with impartial judgement. At minimum it should be stated clearly in brackets that the label "far right" is disputed on rational grounds based on the political analysis of what they are actually about. I think a better alternative may be to drop chiral label altogether and describe it as a Nationalist Party possessing what many consider to be extremist policies etc. If a chiral label should be used it would be dishonest to use any other label than far left since most of it's policies and are clearly socialist essentially. GenerallyKnowledge ( talk) 22:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
There is confusion hear about what is far left and far right. It is not about race. A left wing party is not distinguished from a far right simply on the basis of whether it is racist or not.
Communist parties have often been racist. Stalin conducted racial purges. The communist Rand Rebellion in South African in 1922 was sparked by miners fearing a non-racial hiring policy.
The BNP may be racist and far left, or racist and far right. Or not racist at all, and either left or right wing. The Nazi Party itself was as such far left as it was far right. It was not Communist or Socialist. But there were major elements in the party, until they were purged by Hitler, who were unambiguously far left. So is the BNP far left or far right, or simply left or right. Personally I would suggest that it is left wing. Most people may call it far right, but then most people could be wrong, and simply confusing race with position on the political spectrum. 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 23:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
After looking at the list of ideologies I think it would be prudent to list Ethno nationalism, since they do fit the description.
Actually I think ethno-nationalism is probably a better description as they campaign around british nationalism, not white nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk) 03:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
To describe the bnp as ' ethnio nat' is obtuse, clearly they are white nationalists. Thier ideology is racist. 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 02:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Facism is defined as 'An authoritarian political system opposed to Democracy and Liberalism.' Obviously the BNP does not fit into this. If we look at the nasty end of Nazi fascism (which seems to have been the only end it had), we are constantly reminded of the death toll caused by that group. What we are not reminded of is the death toll incurred by the Communist groups in Russia and China. The Nazi contribution pales into significance when compared with them. To suggest that the BNP is close in any way to the evil- doings of those people is ludicrous. However, it should be noted that the Communists, despite their record do not attract the vitreol fired at the BNP. Indeed, it has been claimed that the BNP were actively against the Communists who seemed to refine the Nazi 'final solution'. 'Oh what a wondrous web we weave' During recent elections, the self-rightous deputy PM was pelted with an egg. He turned round and punched the thrower. The thrower was prosecuted but the DPM was not. The other Day, the leader of the BNP was treated similary but did not respond as did the DPM. Who's the 'thug' in that story? Was the second thower prosecuted? I think not. Additionally; in the same camera shot - a group of bearded persons were shown carying placards insiting civil disobedience and advocating a law for the minority. Were they prosecuted - no. Is it any wonder that people like the BNP get increasing support? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.69.223 ( talk) 17:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC) The fascism label is clearly a politicially motivated label as only bnp opponents use the term to describe them. And please don't just give me that whole "sorry this question has been answered before" rubbish because it hasn't actually been addressed in an unbias manner. Everyone knows the media generally call them "far-right" but only left-wing and anti-bnp media (such as 'the sun') actually call them "fascist".] The label fascist is purely politically motivated as the bnp do not actually hold policies of extreme authoritarianism but rather many incorrectly label anyone who is far-right as being fascist. And I'm afraid it seems that wikipedia is also no exception to this misconception of ideology. Please compare the BNP's policies against the definition of fascism and I'm confident you'll find that current BNP policies do not match them. Especially as fascism incorporates a "corporatist economic theory" whereas the BNP are known to be quite socialist in their economic policies i.e. supporting small businesses and rejecting large corporations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk • contribs) 04:24, 19 September 2009
The Marxist interpretation of Fascism in the 1920s & 30s was that when the ruling classes were unable to supress the workers' movement by the usual means then they would be suppressed by naked violence offered by the Fascists of Mussolini & Hitler. Obviously this was a clearer label than "National Socialist." There is in this conception no reference to the vicious racism (and an optimism as to the Left's own strength) in Hitler's Nazism nor Griffin's, so it is only a partial explanation. No doubt the BNP would like to see themselves as "smashing Bolshevism" or whatever, provided they could find any left to smash. There are few openly fascist organisations left, although the American Fascist Movement regard the likes of the BNP as extremists.-- Streona ( talk) 10:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
"No doubt the BNP would like to see themselves as "smashing Bolshevism" or whatever" But this is just your opinion - not an indisputable fact. I've followed the BNP for a while and I've never heard them speak out against 'Bolshevism'. In fact the BNP have a strict policy of no violence, they never march on the streets and they never assault police - unlike many of their opponents who fequently use such tactics that could easily be described as fascist i.e. the unite against fascism (UAF) & various fundamentalist Muslim groups behaviour at the recent Harrow mosque riots in London. Furthermore as a supposidly neutral website, wikipedia should realise that 'extremism' is reletive - not set in stone. Many people may view the BNP's views as 'extremist' but the BNP equally view their's as extremist, and given the fact that they are now firmly established as a minority party (with similar support to the UK Green party) one can no longer simply discredit everything they say as false.
"Hard for anyone to be neutral when dealing with an article on a party like this." then perhaps you shouldn't comment on this article. "Reliable sources describe the BNP as fascists, quite right too because thats exactly what they are." What reliable sources - the uaf, the sun & other left-leaning papers - I would hardly consider them 'reliable' sources when dealing with a political issue they oppose. And how exactly are the bnp fascist? are you even aware of what that word actually means? As I already stated the bnp does not line up with the definition of fascism, they are socially very conservative and economically quite socialist. In order to be fascist a party or government needs to be socially very conservative AND very economically corporatist AND use force to threaten/intimidate, depribe or ban their political rivals - the latter two of which the bnp actually has done against them i.e. the banning of their members from certain local bodies & being physically attacked with clawhammers etc. I have to agree with Rodhull andemu here - references to 70 year old political ideologies aren't very intelligent or helpful, in fact much of this whole article reads as though it were written by a member of the uaf or searchlight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk • contribs) 05:14, 24 September 2009
The articles you listed are extremely bias and mostly draw on the party's neo-fascist past, not the current bnp. The first two of them are from small neo-marxist/far-leftist sites and can hardly be considered 'reliable' can they, as for the last one its arguements that the bnp is fascist is based on the old (1980's-1990's) bnp not the modern one (Griffin era). Its clear that many people think the bnp has 'put on a new image' just for political gain, but again thats just your opinion, it doesn't matter what a party used to stand for - after all the UK Labour party used to be anti-homosexual but you wouldn't call them that now. And besides why does it matter what some jouneralists say? they don't decide everything, if they started saying 2+2=5 would that make it true in wikipedia's eyes. Again being 'far-right' doesn't automatically make you fascist, and therefore wikipedia needs to stop their obvious bias against nationalism by comparing it to fascism of previous decades as peoples views do evolve over time - including Nick Griffin's. As this article itself states Griffin admitted that under the old Tyndall-era bnp he was forced to 'tow the party line' on many issues (such as 'zionism'). So prehaps a fairer way to put it would be "many accuse the bnp of habouring fascist or neo-fascist tendancies (due to their neo-fascist past) although the bnp themselves deny this and often counter-accuse their opponents of fascism, citing several legal attacks against bnp members because of their political beliefs; such as the ongoing legal case against adam walker and the banning of bnp members from the police force and other civil service positions".
All i'm asking for is that you remove the "fascism" label in the info-box, not remove all accusations of fascism. It is an appalling sight to see wikipedia stoop so low that it panders to one side of the arguement over the other, as this article seems to go out of its way to dis-credit the bnp rather than taking a factual & up-to-date approach i.e. not digging up past neo-fascist beliefs and saying they still apply even when the bnp denies and even denouces them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk • contribs) 05:08, 25 September 2009
So can we agree with Griffin, that an incoming BNP government would change the status of those they consider to be non indigenous "folk" communities who will not or cannot leave the country to what he termed "guests" - presumably having only the status of tourists. These people would have almost no rights to employment, health, housing, welfare or employment? The death penalty would be introduced for "treason" - which historically has proven to be a very elastic concept when applied to people who disagree with their government. Apart from members with tattoos which won't come off, the BNP has replaced overt Nazi/Fascist symbols with the Union Flag, but their policies are implicit and amount to the same aims they ever had. -- Streona ( talk) 09:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Griffin makes his true feelings very clear in this video. [4] This idea the BNP has truely reformed and become a patriotic party is rubbish. They are a disgrace to this country and that is something liberals and conservatives can agree on which is why theres many reliable sources describing them as fascist. BritishWatcher ( talk) 11:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to return like a dog unto its vomit, but the question has not been tackled of inner-party democracy within the BNP. I understand that whilst the leadership is theoretically elective, anyone actually standing against Griffin - such as Colin Auty - is apt to have themselves accused of treason & expelled and their supporters intimidated by ex- South African Policemen. It also seems as if the Leader has a dominance over policy-making & approval of membership not inconsistent with Der Fuhrerprinzip of yesteryear.-- Streona ( talk) 13:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Can we be more polite?, or we - or rather you- might just get blocked (again). Members of the BNP who disgree with Griffin's position have also a history of getting banned out of the BNP & their house broken into by the "Security Team" so will there be a free vote on the acceptance of non-Whites as Griffin has been advised by his lawyers (if you can call Lee Barnes that)?-- Streona ( talk) 18:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Sadie Graham. -- Streona ( talk) 18:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Hang on - Mark Collett makes pro-Hitler, pro- Nazi statements and Sadie Graham objects, yet it is she that is thrown out of the BNP? What does that tell you ?-- Streona ( talk) 09:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Implicitly fascist then.-- Streona ( talk) 08:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I recentlty came across this article regarding the loose use of the term fascist in regards to the BNP. [7] I think this should be considered as it backs my original claims that the term fascist is used as a political insult by anti-BNP types rather than a real discription of the party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk) 23:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I suggest you read the references cited. It is pointless to attempt to refute the use of the term fascist to describe the bnp unless you can discredit the refs and supply similarly persuasive citations to support your claims. 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 06:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I took a look at the references that assert the BNP are fascists and they do not assert that they`re fascists in an orthodox or traditional sense. This is obvious for anyone that follows the BNP because they do not quote any of the slogans from Nazi Germany or fascist Italy and they even use Winston Churchill in their political outreach. The references merely state that the BNP have traits in common with earlier fascist movements so this should be specified. I think it would appropriate to state in the information box that they are a British deviation of fascism.-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 17:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Michael Billig is bias in favour of Freudo-Marxism (cut from the Frankfurt School cloth). People who are actively working to subvert the West are not a neutral or reliable source for articles, especially on contested points such as this. In any case the BNP is not the NF. Can we have some non-far left academic sources which claim the BNP is ideologically "fascist"? What do Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton, Zeev Sternhell, Stanley G. Payne have to say on the issue? The fact that the party, even though it is completely legal in the UK to form a fascist party (or in fact any ideology), rejects the label is significant for it to be a violation of WP:BLP. In any case, regardless of what the party may or may not have been in the past, it is difficult to argue after Griffin's Haiderisation of the party that it is even that radical. It simply mixes populism with ethno-nationalism. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 17:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
So far, we have yet to see any specific claims to why the BNP is "fascist", to this point only numerous claims to why the BNP are not "fascist". But I am prepared for more of these leftist claims more or less just saying that "they just are fascist" and so on. Not allowing non-white members for instance do not at all equal a party of being "fascist", if that's the case there are numerous organizations in Britain that do not allow non-black, non-asian members. Is it a claim of intemidation or something like that? In that case the UAF are far more "fascist" than the BNP. Further, several of the users discussing here, like BritishWatcher, has shown in the topic below to have a clearly personal prejudgemental and biased view (maybe a UAF-activist even?), which means that the views presented by that person can not be taken seriously. - GabaG ( talk) 11:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
We have plenty of WP:RS that the BNP is fascist. That's the end of it as far as WP is concerned. Any removal of the term from he article will be contrary to the goals of this project, and will be viewed as disruptive editing. Verbal chat 12:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a770185679
I know you might try to dismiss it by saying it is just a review but the review was written by someone who obviously read the book and has been confided by the site that is being used as a reference to convey and summarize Copsey`s assertions so the reviewer`s interpretation of this book carries abundantly more weight than the interpretations of anybody here-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 17:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Not so long ago, Microsoft Encarta (1999 version) had managed to define the Norwegian Progress Party as "Neo-Nazi", and far-left ("social democratic nice organization") "SOS Racism" (leaders have links to Stalinist and Maoist groups) has publicly called it "Nazi". Just saying that even popularly renowned sources can be terribly wrong, or extremly biased. As such, I think it should at least be presented the specific reasons to why the BNP are fascist, so that eventually the discussion could be closed, in either "direction". (Just to say, I do think the BNP have some very stupid policies, like having ethnic requirements for membership. Nevertheless, I would like to see a truthful and neutral article about the party, thus removing possible political biased smears.) - GabaG ( talk) 23:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
"The full sentence is: "He concludes that ideological renewal under Griffin constitutes a recalibration of fascism rather than a fundamental break in ideological continuity" (my emphasis). In the article itself Copsey is even more explicit: "This does not represent some fundamental breach of ideological continuity. It is not the transformation from fascism to national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself. It once more testifies to the almost Darwinian ability of fascism to survive and adapt as an ideology. Adversaries are therefore quite justified in their vilification of the BNP as fascist although, for the sake of accuracy, the 'neo-fascist' label is more exact"
Firstly, the point here is not denying whether the BNP is fascist or not but the need to specify in the article that the BNP are a deviation or a recalibration of fascism rather than a fascist party in an orthodox or traditional sense. Calling them neo-fascist would not be the appropriate thing to do because Neo-fascist is essentially the same, the prefix "neo" is merely added by some people to distinguish between Mussolini and Hitler and fascists/nazis today.
"national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself"
THIS IS PRECISELY MY POINT. They are a recalibration or modern deviation of fascism and it appears that you agree with me so obviously there is a consensus here to present the BNP as a modern deviation of traditional fascism.As Red Deathy said, if you recalibrate a rifle it is still a rifle but if your a vendor of firearms it is your responsibility to inform the buyer that a certain model has been recalibrated as it is wikipedia`s responsibility to inform people that the BNP are a recalibration or (as I think would be a more appropriate term for an a political group or movement) a deviation of fascism-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 16:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
-"it is but one source out of five"
Renton appears to be most recent so his interpretation that the BNP are a recalibration or a deviatiobn(as I word it) is the most relevant of the sources.
-"If you want to be consistent, go to the articles on the Conservative Party (or any other party of your choice) and see if you can get away with describing them as "recalibrated""
This is the reason why the term NEO-CONS or Neo-Conservatives is employed to describe men like Bush who deviate from what Conservatives once were. The term Neo-fascist cannot be used because unfortunately it is often used in an erroneous context to describe fascists or Nazis who share the exact same ideology as Hitler or Mussolini but who were born afterwards.
-"All parties have changed as time passes"
Yes, Orthodox Nazi or fascist parties like the American Nazi Party have changed but ther ideology still remains explicitly Nazi. The BNP`s ideology has deviated from that position in recent years so even if they still retain characteristics of a Fascist group they are nontheless an altered version of it,as the reference clearly indicates, and this needs to be specified if wikipedia desires to be an accurate source of information.-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 17:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Fascist Deviants? Bit POV but it has a ring to it.-- Streona ( talk) 08:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
If " fascism" absolutely have to be stated in the infobox, I think it should be replaced with the more suiting explanation of " Fascist (epithet)". - GabaG ( talk) 18:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
As the fascism label is n the info box this deserves the same level of importance as racism or Anti-Semitism, its fundamental to those who oppose them. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I was just listening to the radio and wondered what would be in wikipedia under BNP. To be honest I was pleasantly surprised by the intro - I've had experience of articles which are just blatant propoganda, and largely the intro seemed relatively unbiased. However, reading the talk, I found the controversy about "fascism" (Every article has their controversy ... it's the best bit to read!). Anyway, in the past I did some research on the faesces of Rome so I thought I'd have a look. Whilst the section on fascism seems to hold up as "truthful", to be honest I couldn't see it doing anything except offering a lot of (to be honest) spurious quotes that allowed one side to call the party fascist, without really going into the technical definition of fascism. That is to say, it is clearly mud slinging, but it really doesn't add anything to the sum of human knowledge. Then I went to the wikipedia article on fascism, and to be blunt, I've seldom read such twaddle ... and quite clearly there is no real modern definition and to devote a whole section to "opinion about whether this party is fascist or not", seems to me a complete waste of a bandwidth. So I would propose throwing out the whole section and leaving something like: "the BNP are often described as fascist although the exact definition on fascism within the post WWII context is unclear" in the intro. 88.110.76.120 ( talk) 12:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I know the BNP are a bunch of crazy racists, but this article seems very biased against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.237.132 ( talk) 01:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The basic problem is that Wikipedia has basic values to do with how a discourse is conducted and how knowledge evolves (peer review, respect for each other regardless of ethnic or national origin, politeness etc.) and the basic values of the BNP and those who apologise for it in these pages are at variance. Karl Popper described fascism as "mankind's periodic retreat from freedom & reason" and if Wikipedia is not about freedom & reason then it would not exist.-- Streona ( talk) 19:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
"was still having extensive contacts with the National Alliance as recently as 2003" needs checking, not only is there contracdictory sources but also the source given for thisclaim does not make it, and more over the writer stoped his interviews (according to the source) the year before. Moreover this seems to be a review (see my comment about facist label). Slatersteven ( talk) 19:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.redwatch.org.uk/bn1.jpg seesm to be broke. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC) The link still does not work, so why were sources that did work removed. Moreover the passage does not say the BNP denies any links. I also belive that the fact that Mr Sheppard was explelled from the BNP is of great relevance. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC) As the source does not work I nave reverted to my version. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:50, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I feel this violates WP:UNDUE having the party categorised under this label. Homophobia is not a large part of their agenda. Furthermore, this article has undue weight on the anti-homosexual ideas within the BNP. It's not a big deal.-- Bulgarian Psychology Professor ( talk) 21:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Don't mention the Ware! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. -- Streona ( talk) 08:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
This would probably fall under their general opposition to Cultural Marxism and political correctness, rather than "homophobia". For instance, currently taxpayers are forced to pay for "
Manchester Pride" a major LGBT advocacy parade. Even people who may find this in direct opposition to their own personal views or contrary to their religious values, they have no choice but to pay for it, with the money they have earned, due to Loony Labour's Cultural Marxism. As this party doesn't seem to be "against homosexuals" in general (I can't find anything to say homosexuals can't join their party), but rather against Cultural Marxists using the
Sexual Revolution as a weapon in public, this tag would seem to be a strech. -
Yorkshirian (
talk)
06:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
On the nail-bomb attack in Soho: ‘Dozens of “gay” demonstrators flaunting their perversion in front of the world’s journalist showed why so many people find these creatures so repulsive’ (Nick Griffin — Spearhead June 1999)
Perhaps one should look within his own tortured psyche for the explanation of Griffin's evident bitterness-- Streona ( talk) 07:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Again, and I have pointed this out to other editors, you have reinserted this cat without any discussion or any consensus, you have reinserted it and then come to discuss it, this is not the way to affect change here at wikipedia that way to affect change is through discussion. Reinserting your favoured position without discussion weakens your position. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
The cat must clearly stay. The reasons for this have been explained in detail above. 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 20:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
If the BNP's new constitution which Griffin is due to present in court in January comes into effect, they will no longer be an "whites-only" party. But they've made it clear they still wish to be. Should their Wiki page still carry the label "whites only"? Just to clarify, I'm not arguing this change should be made now, just starting the discussion for when it happens :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.202.45 ( talk) 21:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it should we need to get itsorted but bear in mind that the BNP has decided not to admit any new members until after the January EGM when Griffin will lay it down to the membership about the new constitution which is expected to concentrate more power in the hands of the hierarchy a=in order to prevent the party being taken over by the non-white hordes.-- Streona ( talk) 23:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually I believe the EGM will be in November 2009 but the return to court date is 28 Jan 2010 and if they have not changed the Constitution as required then the Court will take steps against them and they are not taking new membership applications until then, although perhaps the BNP application form should be overprinted "Smile; You're on Wikileaks!"-- Streona ( talk) 14:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I see that Slatersteven reverted my edits on the fascist nature of the BNP. Unfortunately, what he has done has gone back to a section which is inaccurate and not particularly informative. For example, despite what some disruptive editors have argued in this talk page, the BNP has NOT been described as a "recalibration and modernization" of fascism in any of the sources quoted, or anywhere else for that matter! This was a deliberate misreading of one article's abstract by someone who never actually read the article itself! Further, to quote just one politician (Cameron) as calling them fascist is disingenuous - dozens have - and then to give three quotes for BNP denial is just pointless when one would do. This in itself suggests a distinct lack of balance. I can agree that a proper section on Fascism is needed in this article; however the current one is not it. For this reason, I have reverted to my version which I would ask editors to accept as a temporary measure which at least covers the issue until such time as we can come up with a decent section and not this nonsense.
In the policy section it should be simple; present the details of what is contained within their policy. For instance "In their manifesto, the BNP has said such and such" or "while MEPs and part of the London Assembly, the party has such and such". Utilising Herbert Marcuse's critical theory, by using big, distracting words in an attempt to blacklist (in this case manifest political opponents falling over themselves screaming "fascist! fascist!"), without actually presenting to the reader what their policy is at all, in a section which is called "policy", surely is not NPOV. If the "Fascism" WP:BLP section is kept it should be merged into the "opposition" section. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 21:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Big push before the question time appearance eh lads? -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 21:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I can't believe nobody add the 2009 Copsey book - people should keep an eye out for this popping up in 2010. it's great that the article has so many high quality sources to add. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 21:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
The lede is a general overview of the important aspect of the BNP, the long list at the end of the leader of the other parties each with a seperate cite doea not belong in the lede, it is basically a list of people saying why they don't like the BNP and that is not what the lede is for. Off2riorob ( talk) 18:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes yes,,,have a read and thanks for the link, whatever, if there is a discussion on the talkpage regarding an issue as there was here , to first edit to your preffered version and then come here to talk about it is....a poor way to join in the discussion. It would have been nice if you would have joined the discussion and offered your opinion but you didn't. Off2riorob ( talk) 15:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
It does not say on the labour party lede that the tories think they are rubbish does it? no it doesn't, it doesn't say on the condervative party lede that the labour leader things they are right wing fools does it? no it doesn't..and a long list of negative comments from leaders of opposition parties that don't like the bnp does not belong in the lede here either. Off2riorob ( talk) 17:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Usersnowed has replaced the non notable critisism to the lede with the edit summary... (restore, take controversial changes to talk page)... and he has not even made one comment here...what bigotry. suggesting to take it to the talk page when there is clearly a big discussion here already and he (USER snowed ) has not even commenyed. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
what rubbish...ow gordon brown says he doesnt like them and david cameron says he doesnt like them and nick clegg also says he doesnt like them. Perhaps adding that to the lede will make a more imformative article Off2riorob ( talk) 21:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, Sticks and Stones (Nursery Rhyme) comes to mind, I ensure you your opinionated constructive criticism is valuable to me, and your this user has been banned before comment is also of value to me. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The full interview is now oonline here it is perhaps it is useful for additions or to be added as an external link. Off2riorob ( talk) 12:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to sort out the policy section to have it into three sections "Social, Economic and Foreign", but Verbal is playing up. First of all hes wholesale reverting attempts to create these sections on their policy and second of all he is violating WP:NPOV and WP:BLP by putting a section called "fascism" into the policy section, which is more about opponents name calling, rather than a presentation of this parties stated political policies. Discuss. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 20:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
what does this mean? ... "The party's racial policies have led to their ostracism by mainstream politicians".. Off2riorob ( talk) 21:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Reading the citation, I found the comment.. Robert Cockroft, editor of the Barnsley Chronicle, believes mainstream politicians must start engaging, not ostracising, the BNP.
I think that we need to attribute the comment to him. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
but when you do that.... Robin Cockcroft an editor of the Barnsley Chronicle was quoted as saying he believed that mainstream politicians must start engaging, not ostracising, the BNP.
looking at the article addition to the article and the actual comment in the citation, I would say the comment has been taken out of context, and when put nto context correctly as I have here, it is not really noteworthy of inclusion in the lede at all. Also it looks like OR to specifically state that the so called ostrasization is as a fact because of their racist policies. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
So then what we have is that this ostrasization comment is added to the leaders of the three parties to give us this....
The party is ostracised by mainstream politicians and the leaders of Westminster's major parties,[22] including Conservative Party leader David Cameron,[23] Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Liberal Democrat party leader Nick Clegg.[24]
The vast majority of which is not covered in the citation and seems to me 2 plus 2 is 4. Its a poor addition. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) It's quite amusing that you have the nerve to accuse me of OR, then add OR yourself. Reverted to consensus lead free of OR. Also don't attempt to patronise me with encyclopedic claims, I've written a featured article, six good articles and countless DYK articles, what have you done? 2 lines of K 303 14:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
This cite in the lede is not a wp reliable the mirror? .. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Myself I dont think such as this is really at all encyclopedic..if you think it is please say.. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I would say add it as well if user slaterstephen likes the mirror cite.Or place it here please and i'll have a look and see what is written there Off2riorob ( talk) 19:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Revision 320975441 by Boxersoft was undone by FormerIP with the comment 'Please don't remove sourced material without discussion'. As far as I'm aware, that revision added a reference and removed nothing - at least that was my intention when making the edit. Explain please? Boxersoft ( talk) 10:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
BNP membership has been controversial among politicians. on 20th October 2009, The guardian and many other main stream media companies reported a possible leak of the BNP membership on wikileaks. the membership was also available on wikileaks as late as 13:00hrs. Prince Waters (talk page) 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
It is apparently cvery popular as wikileaks has crashed. Apparently there are 16,000 names by the BNP only has a little under 12,000 members. It seems another disgruntled former BNP member is reponsible.-- Streona ( talk) 14:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, when the bnp (as it is doing at the moment) comes in line with all legal requirements that the bnp will be able to request the its members are not given any action (the police don't allow membership) as to do that would be unfair to the members of what is about to become a totally legal constitution. I think that we should remove the whites only tag as membership under those conditions are closed, and the party has agreed to change that. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
BNP insists 'member list' is a hoax [13] Off2riorob ( talk) 20:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Well they would say that, wouldn't they? I notice Colin Auty's name is still there and he was supposed to have been expelled. Especially since one member at least has given their work email in the nhs (Carolyn Allen since you ask). Peter Hain has argued that the BBC Question Time should not invite Griffin as the BNP are NOT a legally constituted party ( although why this would preclude them from appearing I am not certain)until the changes required by the Court are ratified, which they are not. The BNP are have frozen membership until then so until the end of the year they are still whites only and the article will have to change when the matter has been resolved.-- Streona ( talk) 16:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Why no opportunity to mention (with edit option removed) that non whites have in recent years voted BNP to protest against islamic extremists in Britain, a Sikh even featured in a BNP political broadcast saying why he would vote BNP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.20.156 ( talk) 08:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Dont be ridiculous. This is not a place for thinly disguised propoganda for the hatefull stereotyping of the BNP. Mentioning that thier vile campaign of lies to create hatred against moslems has appeared to suceed in recruiting them bigots would seem more honest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 02:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Can you provide a reference for this? Also the possibility that one man may have voted for them is hardly proof that any other Asians have. The ballot box is allegedly secret-- Streona ( talk) 09:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing both the quotes about him as unverifiable, and yes I've looked before removing them. One in particular was quite misleading anyway as the Harrods bombing being referred to was in 1993, and the attack on the "comrade" of the bombers was in 1991. 2 lines of K 303 13:22, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Nick Griffin's comment on BBCQT regarding gay couples kissing (and how he sees it as "really creepy") could be made more neutral in terms of P.o.V. He followed this by slamming the Jan Moirs article in the Daily Mail. Lexinjusta ( talk) 16:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Their website contains everyone of there policies in high detail, should we update the article to reflect these, i belive this would improve neutrality for many reasons. One is that some of the current 'Policies' are not actual policies, or not directly stated as such, and so not only wrong, it is bias against them, with listing some of there more unorthadox 'policies'.
Immigration -
Crime and Punishment
British Economy -
Education
Health Sector -
Housing
Northern Ireland -
Defence
Foreign Affairs -
Democracy
—Preceding
unsigned
Emperor King (
talk)
21:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain."
This is taken straight from the BNP's website, previously cited by User:Emperor King. It is a clear statement of their immigration policy. None of this information appears under the article's subheading "Racial and Immigration Policies". Instead, there is a fairly convoluted set of inflammatory quotes and a perusal into the BNP's alleged racism. Essentially, it is a very disjointed piece of writing. In fact, a Control+F search of the "British National Party" article reveals that it doesn't even include the word 'deport'. Much of the information is important, and the BNP's ambiguous definitions of 'racism' are definitely food for thought, but overall this subheading is unacceptable. It contains little relevant information, and blatantly ignores core issues.
The lede is a mess and in need of a good copy edit, it is full of citations and comments that don't belong there, I wanted to suggest a copy edit by an experienced neutral editor. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
' alledged internal problems ' - this article is flagged as long, this section does not add much to the article, remove? The BNP is awash with similar stories of incompetance and i wonder why those cited are seen as worthy of mention. It seems odd to have a section that ' alledges' anything. BTW I am new at this so forgive any breaches of form. Vertovian ( talk) 10:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
"Griffin has urged nationalists to join the BNP and use the ballot box instead of violence if only for the sake of their judicial activism." I have two issues with this firstly its in the section about 'Relations with neo-Nazi, terrorist and paramilitary groups' but the source is talking about the BNP, not other groups (the tile gives it away 'Nick Griffin, Party Chairman, alerts the membership to the dangers of a media inspired trap.'). Two I can't find in the source any thing the says he is asking non BNP members to not use violence but instead to support the BNP). Nor can I find any mention of him asking BNP members not to be violent, just to avoid such confrotation (though it does say that the BNP have moved away from street brawls. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Lets see... there were 5 citations in the infobox to support accusations of facsism...user cameron has seen the necessesity to add another,,, now there are 6.. Off2riorob ( talk) 21:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC) and...clegg and brown and cameroon don't like them. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
To be clear to you user cameron scott, there were already 5 cites in the infobox to support claims of fassssisim and you felt ther need to add a 6th.... your addition adds nothing of value tooot he article, actually it just makes it a little bit more ..less neutral.. no one will ever cli8ck on the link you hacve added..excessive pov pushing links like the one you have added do nothing but demean the wiki. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
This whole fascism label is completely bogus, just because known left-wing journalists/news sources like the Sun, Independant etc call them that it doesn't make it true; particularly as they never explain their reasoning but just resort to digging up irrelevant things from the BNP's past - which Griffin publically denounced as anti-semetic and racist on "question time". The article is also very inconsistant with those of similar Nationalist parties in Europe like Jobbik, FPO etc as these articles are much more fairly written and simply state that the media and their political opponents often acccuse them of Fascism although they themselves deny it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk) 23:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Recent links for research.
Griffin: The Generals Have Got It Wrong, sky video oct 20 2009
[14]
BNP's Griffin: Islam is a cancer [15]
Who voted BNP and why? [16]
Who's afraid of the BNP? [17]
Griffin: The Generals Have Got It Wrong, sky video oct 20 2009 [18]
[19]-- Die4Dixie ( talk) 02:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Suggest adding him to ' structure ' section. Legal Director - Lee John Barnes. Vertovian ( talk) 10:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
"Historically the BNP (including Nick Griffin) was overtly anti-Semitic; in recent history the BNP has instead focused on Islam". This sentence doesn't really seem to be supported by the refs, and is in fact quite misleading. The BNP haven't suddenly changed from an anti-Semitic party to an anti-Islam party, for the majority of their history the anti-Pakistani bias was quite clear. What seems to have been the catalyst for the slight refocussing from anti-Pakistani to anti-Islam are the BNP's various legal problems for inciting racial hatred, plus the anti-Islam bandwagon is better to jump on since 9/11, 7/7 etc. Any ideas on how this should read instead? 2 lines of K 303 14:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
To make this a more unbiased article wouldnt it be an idea to also state that the BNP now has jewsih members and even a jewish councillor?
There is a dispute over which version of these two comments is better in the lede, opinions are very welcome..
One.
The mainstream political parties in the
UK represented by
Conservative Party leader
David Cameron,
Labour
Prime Minister
Gordon Brown and
Liberal Democrat party leader
Nick Clegg have strongly opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP and have all refused to engage with them.
[21]
[22]
[23]
Two.
The party is ostracised by mainstream politicians,
[24]
[25] and opposed by the leaders of Westminster's major parties, including
Conservative Party leader
David Cameron,
[1]
Labour
Prime Minister
Gordon Brown,
[26] and
Liberal Democrat party leader
Nick Clegg.
[27]
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Unfortunately the comments above and below show that Off2riorob has a major problem with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Despite me saying my objections were based on OR (and BigDunc also pointing it out) he ignores them completely and starts this RFC that is little more than a !vote asking "which is better". My objections are not even presented in the RFC, so it looks as though my objections are based on a mere "I prefer that version" and not the reality, which is that my objections are based on OR. We are dealing with a classic case of WP:SYN, no matter how much he ignores what people say and relies on proof by assertion. The problem is as follows:
So here comes the synthesis:
None of the sources actually say *why* they oppose the BNP. Let's take the Nick Clegg cite for example:
Source: Nick Clegg of the Liberal Democrats called it a "party of thugs and fascists" Slight paraphrase of Off2riorob's version: Nick Clegg has strongly opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP
Bit of a difference isn't there? WP:V says "The source cited must unambiguously support the information as it is presented in the article", that's being thrown out of the window clearly. WP:OR says "To demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented", guess that's being thrown out of the window too? The same applies to Brown and Cameron, they don't say *why* they oppose the BNP, or certainly not in a way that supports the claims Off2riorob is making.
Could the lead be improved? Absolutely, but not while editors edit war, ignore policy at will and fail to engage in constructive discussion and refuse to listen to anything other editors say. 2 lines of K 303 12:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Umm, ive not been following the debate but the comment about refusing to engage with them no longer correctly applies considering the mainstream parties have all engaged in battle with the criminal on Question time. Times appear to have changed, the previous plan of ignoring them is no longer productive. In truth im no fan on either of those sentences although clearly something is needed to explain the relationship with the mainstream parties but it needs to be very clear why they take such an a view (because of BNP extremist policies and criminal activity inciting racial hatred and discrimination. BritishWatcher ( talk) 20:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Reply to BigDunc..The comment is almost unquestionable and is in no way original research. Such accusations are ridiculous. It is a simple clear comment in the lead that is unquestionable, the comment is totally citable or in fact is already cited. It is actually the ostracised comment in comment two that is uncited. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Looks to me like their is a consensus to remove the comment from the lede altogether. Off2riorob ( talk) 08:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
version three
The mainstream political parties in the UK have strongly opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP and have all refused to engage with them. [28] [29] [30]
The mainstream political parties in the UK have opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP and have all refused to engage with them. [31] [32] [33] Off2riorob ( talk) 18:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I prefer the second version. It is shorter and clearer. Politicians from far left and right have been universal not only in thier condemnation for the ideology of the party but also personally for ng and many in the party. 'Ostracise' is an accurate portrayal of this, but ' refused to engage' is woolly. Vertovian ( talk) 07:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a proposal too. Some people who are involved in this discussion are behaving appalingly and making the process of creating a worthy page very frustrating. Is it so hard to be objective, even if you are a BNP supporter? Frankly I despair. It is silly too - I find myself unable to take some contributors seriously as they bleat on in the face of sensible cited reasoned respones. I am not a supporter of the party but I also realise that ' truth ' is more valuable than ' spume ' in the entry. I suggest some contributors need to reflect on this. For myself I am aware of my possible bias in this subject and try extra hard to be objective - it is clear to me others are either not aware of thier own bias or are behaving innapropriately. I have only been ' here' for a few days and I am already vexed by some peoples belligerance. I would be very sad if anyone here is a BNP cyber activist, or indeed an antifa activist, and is campaigning on this page. Vertovian ( talk) 08:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Looking for a solution to what is a lot of discussion over a small change, I have removed what big dunc claims is original research and what is left is perhaps a compromise between the people that supported neither and the people supporting version one...this...
The mainstream political parties in the UK have all refused to engage with them.[22][23][24] Off2riorob ( talk) 13:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this specific edit that you have reverted, what are your specific objections to that edit? Never mind the whole rest of the article is also a mess, this discussion is about this specific simple change to remove what is considered to be by many people here, excessive detail. Off2riorob ( talk) 14:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
David Cameron also said that UKIP were "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists". So how much weight can we give to such bigots who are clearly nothing more than politically biased before it gets utterly meaningless. If the most rightist of the three mainstream parties manage to use such statements on even a party much less extreme than BNP, how do you think any of the mainstream parties will say anything not biased about the BNP? I suggest the section should be removed alltogehter or strongly shortened and summarized (as suggested by Off2riorob). - GabaG ( talk) 13:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Neither: Is it really needed for a critisism of the party to be placed in its introduction? All political parties bring controversy, as that is their nature. I believe both statements would be a use of POV that would not be appropriate here. Reubzz ( talk) 16:57, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Ther seem to be some issues here with sources thaty need looking into. http://web.archive.org/web/20070629010001/http://www.bnp.org.uk/resources/constitution_8ed.pdf appears (at this time) to be broke. http://web.archive.org/web/20080123101730/http://www.bnp.org.uk/donate/ Appears (at best) to be an old BNP website, also the info appears to be out of date. Also since when has a blog been RS?. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
According to this [ [34]] Simon Bennett is the BNp's webmaster. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
For further information on immigration into the UK, go to [ [35]
In his appearance during an interview with Adam Boulton, Nick Griffin stated that Windrush was the start of immigration into the UK, and that this and further decisions over immigration were made by a political elite without effective consultation with the British population. [2] Not knowing what Windrush was, I decided to research it and to include some information here about it.
Windrush
Both male and female Jamaican settlers arrived in Britain in 1948 aboard the former troopship, MV Empire Windrush. At the end of the Second World War, Britain was busy rebuilding its shattered economy and infrastructure and the Labour government started to think about recruiting workers from the Caribbean to cope with the shortage of labour in some British industries. [3] Some industries and companies sought to recruit staff from the colonies – London Transport, for example, which brought many West Indians over to work on the Underground. In 1948, an advertisement appeared in a Jamaican newspaper and stated that there were 300 places on board Windrush for anyone wishing to travel to Britain. When the ship departed on 24th May, all 300 places were taken and an extra 192 men made the voyage on the deck. Most of those travelling were women or ex-servicemen who did not know what fate awaited them in Britain. Some had jobs promised to them, mainly in the RAF. The majority, however, had no idea what they would do when they arrived. As the ship neared its destination, newspapers fomented public discontent at its arrival, and questions were asked in Parliament.
The ship landed at Tilbury docks on 21st June. The Civil Service sent a black officer, Ivor Cummings, to meet the new arrivals. It was a big problem finding them somewhere to live so, as a short-term measure, the Colonial Office was forced to house 230 Windrush settlers in a deep air raid shelter in Clapham Common. The nearest labour exchange to the shelter was Brixton and, as a result, many of the settlers set up home there, making it one of Britain's first Caribbean communities. [4] There was plenty of work available in Britain, mostly labouring jobs in the big cities. Black Caribbeans were generally shut out of higher-paid jobs, especially those that were heavily unionised. However, the public sector offered them reasonably well-paid work, for example in hospitals, the General Post Office, London Transport and the railways. Housing was a huge problem and stayed that way for the next two decades. There was plenty of work, but the Caribbeans first clashed with the natives over the issue of accommodation.
The arrival of the Windrush was the start of a period of migration from the Caribbean to Britain that did not slow down until 1962. By 1955, 18,000 Jamaicans had moved to Britain and, since they were excluded from much of the social and economic life around them, they began to adapt the institutions they brought with them - the churches, and a co-operative method of saving called the 'pardner' system. At the same time, Caribbeans began to participate in institutions to which they did have access: trade unions, local councils, and professional and staff associations.
In conclusion, this outward flow of people to settle in Britain was an important event in the history of the West Indies and it was also to change the social landscape of Britain in a dramatic fashion. In 1945, Britain's non-white residents numbered in the low thousands. By 1970 they numbered approximately 1.4 million - a third of these children born in the United Kingdom. [5]
Can anyone who has done some research in this area confirm exactly what consultation was carried out by the politicians with the electorate? From the information I have gathered, it seems there was a certain amount of opposition to the immigration policy as well as tensions - over accommodation in particular. It does not appear that any referendum was conducted, and the only reason given was a shortage of labour, given that there were not enough European immigrants to do the mainly manual jobs (157,000 Poles were the first groups to be allowed to settle in the UK, partly because of ties made during the war years. These were joined by Italians but it was not enough to meet the need for labour at the time). Ivankinsman ( talk) 16:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Sources
As has been pointed out sources must back up the statemtn being made, I shall now start to remove statmentsd not backed up by sources. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I've added info about links between the EDL and BNP, which have been alleged in the press, but are denied by the BNP. How this should be worded is up for discussion. -- FormerIP ( talk) 22:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Why when using the BNP's constitution are wwe not usiing the latest edition? Slatersteven ( talk) 22:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
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Why doesn't the section on race mention that they have one Jewish councillor Patricia Richardson (politician)? 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 12:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Certainly the all white staus is currently under legal review as the Equalities Commission are in correspondence with them on this issue, but I refer you once again to statements made by Lee Barnes the BNP "legal officer" (& would-be epic poet)in theb case of Redfearn v Serco that to discriminate against an employee on th ebasis of BNP membership was effectively racial discrimination, precisely because they ARE exclusively white. If they are not then Bagel Barnes was fibbing to the tribunal. I am not saying he was because that might be libellous.-- Streona ( talk) 14:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
principle of national sovereignty in all British affairs. It is pledged to the restoration of the unity and integrity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It believes that the indigenous peoples of the entire British Isles, and their descendants overseas, form a single brotherhood of peoples, and is pledged therefore to adapt or create political, cultural, economic and military institutions with the aim of fostering the closest possible partnership between these peoples. (b) The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948. 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 02:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for the reference Slatersteven, particularly the following exerpt from the judgement
Lord Justice Mummery:
Introduction
A claim for race discrimination contrary to the Race Relations Act 1976, as amended (the 1976 Act) was brought in the employment tribunal by a member of the British National Party (BNP) against his former employer. According to its constitution the membership of the BNP is confined to white people... (my emphasis. Bagel Barnes (as I believe he is known to friends & enemies alike) represented him at the original tribunal. my point is that the BNP is a whites-only organisation according to Barnes and Lord justice Mummery.-- Streona ( talk) 06:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
http://www.creideasach.co.uk/Case_Reviews/Redfearn.htm states that “by dismissing him, on the ground of the Asian race and ethnic origin of the people [being] transported”. Not that he was white (that was the case for appeal) also see http://www.conferencebarristers.com/files/Conference_Chambers_January_Newsletter.pdf.
Good point, Steven. The full text of the appeal case is available online, and you are right that redfearn's counsel agued as you have said, but LJ Mummery also says that the grounds had changed from the line put forward at the original tribunal by "a different representative" i.e. Lee Barnes, the BNPs amateur brief, who is no more legally qualified than I am, that the grounds were that the BNP were an all-white organisation. I refer to paragraph 16 of LJ Mummery's judgement
The employment tribunal dealt with both direct and indirect discrimination. Unfortunately, there was no prior case management conference to identify the issues for the hearing and no amendment was ever made to the originating application formulating the basis of the indirect discrimination claim. The case was, however, argued at the hearing on behalf of Mr Redfearn (who then had different representation than he has now) along the lines that "since the BNP is a whites only party the dismissal is indirect racial discrimination." Serco was challenged to show that such discrimination was justified. In Mr Redfearn's skeleton argument in the employment tribunal reliance was also placed on section 1(1)(b) of the 1976 Act. The submission was that it followed from the fact that
"membership of the BNP was limited to whites.. that [Serco] in deciding that membership of the BNP was incompatible with the Applicant's continued employment [Serco ] was imposing a requirement such that the proportion of persons of his racial group was 'considerably smaller than the proportion of persons not of that racial group'. This applies a fortiori in this case because the number of non-white persons who would not be able to satisfy the requirement (of not belonging to the BNP) is not only 'considerably smaller' than the proportion of whites but infinitely less ie none at all."
www.emplaw.co.uk/free/4frame/data/2005irlr744.htm -
Interestingly the case is listed as 2006 although the dismissal took place in June 2005 so whether the 8th or 9th edition of the BNP Constitution was being cited requires further inquiry.-- Streona ( talk) 09:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry I went off on holiday just after this & got cought up in revising for Mastermind. Still it now looks as though this issue will be taken to court by the Equalities Commission. I personally think that this is a waste of time since griffin introduced the idea of an "ethnic liaison committee" some years ago in the expectation of such a case and has told BNP members at a recent "fun day" (if golliwog-burning is your idea of fun)that the party would be structured in such a way as to retain power in the hands of the leadership and not by any putative future ethnic minotrity members. Protecting the rights of ethnic minorities who genuinely wish to join the BNP does seem a bit like providing free combs for the bald.-- Streona ( talk) 16:31, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
According to the renowned site Political Compass [1]: "It's muddled thinking to simply describe the likes of the British National Party as "extreme right". The truth is that on issues like health, transport, housing, protectionism and globalisation, their economics are left of Labour, let alone the Conservatives. It's in areas like police power, military power, school discipline, law and order, race and nationalism that the BNP's real extremism - as authoritarians - is clear.". Look on the "compass" and you can see that the BNP is in reality more economically left than Labour Party, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. It seems however to be a universal misuse of the word "far-right", so that it might not really matter anyways. - GabaG ( talk) 21:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Hitler ate sugar, you know. Sceptre ( talk) 22:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Would that make the BNP have a socialist point of view towards economics then? ( 86.169.125.18 ( talk) 19:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC))
It's been said multiple times on the talk page before but this article is way too long; it far exceeds Wikipedia's recommended size. I don't think we should delete anything significant, that's why the article needs to be split.
I think the history section should be split with a summarised version on this page and a new page created: History of the British National Party. Also lot of the information in the electoral performance section should be moved into the main BNP election results page, which at the moment is just mainly tables. The legal issues section could also be split into a new article as well. MaesterTonberry ( talk) 20:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The article currently claims that the bnp took this phrase from Gordon Brown, whereas he famously borrowed it from them and the NF. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7097837.stm 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 23:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Its surprising that there's no mention of the BNP's economic policy, which is key info on any party
from the New statesman there's this
"A brief skim through BNP manifesto literature brings to light proposals for the following: large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries. Under Griffin, the modern-day far right has positioned itself to the left of Labour."
link
www.newstatesman.com/europe/2009/04/bnp-european-party-british
I think something like this should be added
2.4 Economic policy
The BNP advocates a socialist economic policy, to the left of most major British parties. Its manifesto proposes large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection and the nationalisation of key industries.
Then cite the newstatesman article
any agreements? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.54.106.121 (
talk •
contribs) 17:16, 27 July 2009
Can you link to a citation/credible website for the stuff about cutting foreign aid?
cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.106.121 ( talk) 21:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've read the BNP economic policy described as "left" by a lot of sources used to mean "anti-capitalist". The traditional far right (Fascist) is usually corporatist which is different to what this manifesto states .The BNP policy is closer to traditional democratic socialism before it morphed into whats now called social-democracy or the modern left which ironically is closer to corporatism.
How about using anti-capitalist if people don't like left
2.4 Economic policy
The BNP advocates an anti-capitalist economic policy. Its manifesto proposes large increases in state pensions, more money for the NHS, improved worker protection and the nationalisation of key industries [news statesman citation]. It proposes to reduce free trade and to end foreign aid [BNP website citation]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.106.121 ( talk) 21:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
All of the British political party articles are in a very poor state IMO. If you compare to the Republican Party article for the one in the USA, which is very good as they have an indepth presentation of their policies and political positions. On the Labour Party article for the UK party, it just mentions history, no really clear, layed out presentation of their current explicit policies. Its a bit of a shambles really. Same with this one. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 19:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a source that should be incorporated in the article. "In a statement it said: "The BNP's membership criteria appear to restrict membership to those within what the BNP regards as particular 'ethnic groups' and those whose skin colour is white. This exclusion is contrary to the Race Relations Act.
"The commission believes the BNP's constitution and membership criteria are discriminatory and, further, that the continued publication of them on the BNP website is unlawful.
"It has therefore issued county court proceedings against party leader Nick Griffin and two other officials" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8218397.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 ( talk) 16:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
On ideology it says facism with sevral refrences however reading og there official website they claim not to be facist and the informaworld.com site has Nationalism and Racism listed as a subject only but no mention of them being racist, facists and does not prove it on the site. The google books links to a book talking about racism but has no mention of the bnp on the site however I admit I have not read the book that is listed. The further two are books that I have not read. The final refrence talks about the london bombings, BNP and facism but does not prove theese are linked together. Theese refrences may not be the best refrences beacuse they do not prove the BNP is facist and on the BNP website it claims to be nationalists but not facists. I suspect the refrences may also be bias because they are against the BNP party however I have no supporting evidence for this claim but it is clear the refrences do not prove the BNP is facist. I would like your view on thee subject I have done some reading on the BNP and don't find any reliable evindence that isn't bias to prove the BNP is facist. ROOSTER ( talk) 19:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Discussions on this talk page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please […] look in the archives or FAQ section before contributing.
OK I have read the FAQ and although I do disagree I suppose it's fair to say it. 90.195.27.132 ( talk) 23:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
FYI; today's News of the World has a video and undercover report of a recent BNP event:
which should be mentioned here. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
BNP fun day- there's an oxymoron for you -- Streona ( talk) 16:14, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The day ANY article from the News of the world is used as a source/reference on Wikipedia will be the day I leave and never come back!-- Frank Fontaine ( talk) 09:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Referencing a news story from a news paper seems sensible and normal. What is your objection based on? It is clear the story is factual and citing the reference allows people such as yourself to judge the evidence according to your own tabloid prejudices. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 20:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The article incorrectly labels the BNP as 'far-right'. However, the positions held by the party and expressed in their manifesto are national socialist policies, and 'far-left' in nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dantubb ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I have to agree with much of the above unless anyone objects i will amend this to say far left instead of far right. Stupidstudent ( talk) 19:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Only a supporter of the bnp could agree with this change. The bnp is a ' volkish ' party that seeks to return britain to a whiteness they approve of. This suspicion and hatred of non whites and thier typically fascist campaigning style clearly makes them worthy of the title ' far right '. I am disspointewd to see that that bnp supporters are subverting this page for politicol purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 20:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Defining a party as liberal or conservative, or of the left or right often becomes problematic. In systems that seem to be, more or less, dominated by two parties; Canada, United States, Britain and Australia, the right parties; Conservative, Republican, Conservative and Liberal respectively, generally favor a more free trade (economic liberalism) and social conservatism (on gays, immigrants, marriage, ect.) Their opponents of the left; Liberal, Democratic, Labor, and Labor, respectively, generally support a larger role for the state in the economy and a more progressive view on society (again on gays, immigrants, marriage, ect.) Even though I am already stretching generalizations to the max, the definitions would become more muddled if one were to include non-anglophonic nations, or multi-party systems, or different time periods. If the BNP is volkish in nature, along the lines of the Nazi party, it possesses the social conservatives (and much more) of the conservative parties. But Anton Drexler lacked the economic liberalism. The economic policies of the Nazi party was not a free market policy. It would seem that the idea of ultra-nationalist or volkism would be better terms for the BNP. The question would be what is far right? If far right is a uncompromising member of a conservative party, then the definition does not fit. If it is a person of a extrema nationalist persuasion, then the definition is apt. ( RorikStrindberg ( talk) 06:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC))
How can "far right" be "defined" by the BNP? Surely it is the other way around. Going back to first principles, and the French origins of the term, the BNP as a "revolutionary" party has to be far left. 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 23:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not a BNP suporter. So much for assuming good faith, at least have the guts to sign your posts if you atack somebody. It just reads to me that the BNP's polices listed on this page is Far left. One does not need to be right wing to be racist. Remember stalin was just as good at persequting minorities as Hitler. Stupidstudent ( talk) 22:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I strongly object to the current definition of the BNP as a 'far right' party. The fact that many established commentators thus describe it has (in my view) more to do the with overwhelming liberal-left bias of our current orthodoxy than it has to do with impartial judgement. At minimum it should be stated clearly in brackets that the label "far right" is disputed on rational grounds based on the political analysis of what they are actually about. I think a better alternative may be to drop chiral label altogether and describe it as a Nationalist Party possessing what many consider to be extremist policies etc. If a chiral label should be used it would be dishonest to use any other label than far left since most of it's policies and are clearly socialist essentially. GenerallyKnowledge ( talk) 22:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
There is confusion hear about what is far left and far right. It is not about race. A left wing party is not distinguished from a far right simply on the basis of whether it is racist or not.
Communist parties have often been racist. Stalin conducted racial purges. The communist Rand Rebellion in South African in 1922 was sparked by miners fearing a non-racial hiring policy.
The BNP may be racist and far left, or racist and far right. Or not racist at all, and either left or right wing. The Nazi Party itself was as such far left as it was far right. It was not Communist or Socialist. But there were major elements in the party, until they were purged by Hitler, who were unambiguously far left. So is the BNP far left or far right, or simply left or right. Personally I would suggest that it is left wing. Most people may call it far right, but then most people could be wrong, and simply confusing race with position on the political spectrum. 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 23:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
After looking at the list of ideologies I think it would be prudent to list Ethno nationalism, since they do fit the description.
Actually I think ethno-nationalism is probably a better description as they campaign around british nationalism, not white nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk) 03:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
To describe the bnp as ' ethnio nat' is obtuse, clearly they are white nationalists. Thier ideology is racist. 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 02:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Facism is defined as 'An authoritarian political system opposed to Democracy and Liberalism.' Obviously the BNP does not fit into this. If we look at the nasty end of Nazi fascism (which seems to have been the only end it had), we are constantly reminded of the death toll caused by that group. What we are not reminded of is the death toll incurred by the Communist groups in Russia and China. The Nazi contribution pales into significance when compared with them. To suggest that the BNP is close in any way to the evil- doings of those people is ludicrous. However, it should be noted that the Communists, despite their record do not attract the vitreol fired at the BNP. Indeed, it has been claimed that the BNP were actively against the Communists who seemed to refine the Nazi 'final solution'. 'Oh what a wondrous web we weave' During recent elections, the self-rightous deputy PM was pelted with an egg. He turned round and punched the thrower. The thrower was prosecuted but the DPM was not. The other Day, the leader of the BNP was treated similary but did not respond as did the DPM. Who's the 'thug' in that story? Was the second thower prosecuted? I think not. Additionally; in the same camera shot - a group of bearded persons were shown carying placards insiting civil disobedience and advocating a law for the minority. Were they prosecuted - no. Is it any wonder that people like the BNP get increasing support? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.69.223 ( talk) 17:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC) The fascism label is clearly a politicially motivated label as only bnp opponents use the term to describe them. And please don't just give me that whole "sorry this question has been answered before" rubbish because it hasn't actually been addressed in an unbias manner. Everyone knows the media generally call them "far-right" but only left-wing and anti-bnp media (such as 'the sun') actually call them "fascist".] The label fascist is purely politically motivated as the bnp do not actually hold policies of extreme authoritarianism but rather many incorrectly label anyone who is far-right as being fascist. And I'm afraid it seems that wikipedia is also no exception to this misconception of ideology. Please compare the BNP's policies against the definition of fascism and I'm confident you'll find that current BNP policies do not match them. Especially as fascism incorporates a "corporatist economic theory" whereas the BNP are known to be quite socialist in their economic policies i.e. supporting small businesses and rejecting large corporations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk • contribs) 04:24, 19 September 2009
The Marxist interpretation of Fascism in the 1920s & 30s was that when the ruling classes were unable to supress the workers' movement by the usual means then they would be suppressed by naked violence offered by the Fascists of Mussolini & Hitler. Obviously this was a clearer label than "National Socialist." There is in this conception no reference to the vicious racism (and an optimism as to the Left's own strength) in Hitler's Nazism nor Griffin's, so it is only a partial explanation. No doubt the BNP would like to see themselves as "smashing Bolshevism" or whatever, provided they could find any left to smash. There are few openly fascist organisations left, although the American Fascist Movement regard the likes of the BNP as extremists.-- Streona ( talk) 10:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
"No doubt the BNP would like to see themselves as "smashing Bolshevism" or whatever" But this is just your opinion - not an indisputable fact. I've followed the BNP for a while and I've never heard them speak out against 'Bolshevism'. In fact the BNP have a strict policy of no violence, they never march on the streets and they never assault police - unlike many of their opponents who fequently use such tactics that could easily be described as fascist i.e. the unite against fascism (UAF) & various fundamentalist Muslim groups behaviour at the recent Harrow mosque riots in London. Furthermore as a supposidly neutral website, wikipedia should realise that 'extremism' is reletive - not set in stone. Many people may view the BNP's views as 'extremist' but the BNP equally view their's as extremist, and given the fact that they are now firmly established as a minority party (with similar support to the UK Green party) one can no longer simply discredit everything they say as false.
"Hard for anyone to be neutral when dealing with an article on a party like this." then perhaps you shouldn't comment on this article. "Reliable sources describe the BNP as fascists, quite right too because thats exactly what they are." What reliable sources - the uaf, the sun & other left-leaning papers - I would hardly consider them 'reliable' sources when dealing with a political issue they oppose. And how exactly are the bnp fascist? are you even aware of what that word actually means? As I already stated the bnp does not line up with the definition of fascism, they are socially very conservative and economically quite socialist. In order to be fascist a party or government needs to be socially very conservative AND very economically corporatist AND use force to threaten/intimidate, depribe or ban their political rivals - the latter two of which the bnp actually has done against them i.e. the banning of their members from certain local bodies & being physically attacked with clawhammers etc. I have to agree with Rodhull andemu here - references to 70 year old political ideologies aren't very intelligent or helpful, in fact much of this whole article reads as though it were written by a member of the uaf or searchlight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk • contribs) 05:14, 24 September 2009
The articles you listed are extremely bias and mostly draw on the party's neo-fascist past, not the current bnp. The first two of them are from small neo-marxist/far-leftist sites and can hardly be considered 'reliable' can they, as for the last one its arguements that the bnp is fascist is based on the old (1980's-1990's) bnp not the modern one (Griffin era). Its clear that many people think the bnp has 'put on a new image' just for political gain, but again thats just your opinion, it doesn't matter what a party used to stand for - after all the UK Labour party used to be anti-homosexual but you wouldn't call them that now. And besides why does it matter what some jouneralists say? they don't decide everything, if they started saying 2+2=5 would that make it true in wikipedia's eyes. Again being 'far-right' doesn't automatically make you fascist, and therefore wikipedia needs to stop their obvious bias against nationalism by comparing it to fascism of previous decades as peoples views do evolve over time - including Nick Griffin's. As this article itself states Griffin admitted that under the old Tyndall-era bnp he was forced to 'tow the party line' on many issues (such as 'zionism'). So prehaps a fairer way to put it would be "many accuse the bnp of habouring fascist or neo-fascist tendancies (due to their neo-fascist past) although the bnp themselves deny this and often counter-accuse their opponents of fascism, citing several legal attacks against bnp members because of their political beliefs; such as the ongoing legal case against adam walker and the banning of bnp members from the police force and other civil service positions".
All i'm asking for is that you remove the "fascism" label in the info-box, not remove all accusations of fascism. It is an appalling sight to see wikipedia stoop so low that it panders to one side of the arguement over the other, as this article seems to go out of its way to dis-credit the bnp rather than taking a factual & up-to-date approach i.e. not digging up past neo-fascist beliefs and saying they still apply even when the bnp denies and even denouces them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk • contribs) 05:08, 25 September 2009
So can we agree with Griffin, that an incoming BNP government would change the status of those they consider to be non indigenous "folk" communities who will not or cannot leave the country to what he termed "guests" - presumably having only the status of tourists. These people would have almost no rights to employment, health, housing, welfare or employment? The death penalty would be introduced for "treason" - which historically has proven to be a very elastic concept when applied to people who disagree with their government. Apart from members with tattoos which won't come off, the BNP has replaced overt Nazi/Fascist symbols with the Union Flag, but their policies are implicit and amount to the same aims they ever had. -- Streona ( talk) 09:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Griffin makes his true feelings very clear in this video. [4] This idea the BNP has truely reformed and become a patriotic party is rubbish. They are a disgrace to this country and that is something liberals and conservatives can agree on which is why theres many reliable sources describing them as fascist. BritishWatcher ( talk) 11:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to return like a dog unto its vomit, but the question has not been tackled of inner-party democracy within the BNP. I understand that whilst the leadership is theoretically elective, anyone actually standing against Griffin - such as Colin Auty - is apt to have themselves accused of treason & expelled and their supporters intimidated by ex- South African Policemen. It also seems as if the Leader has a dominance over policy-making & approval of membership not inconsistent with Der Fuhrerprinzip of yesteryear.-- Streona ( talk) 13:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Can we be more polite?, or we - or rather you- might just get blocked (again). Members of the BNP who disgree with Griffin's position have also a history of getting banned out of the BNP & their house broken into by the "Security Team" so will there be a free vote on the acceptance of non-Whites as Griffin has been advised by his lawyers (if you can call Lee Barnes that)?-- Streona ( talk) 18:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Sadie Graham. -- Streona ( talk) 18:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Hang on - Mark Collett makes pro-Hitler, pro- Nazi statements and Sadie Graham objects, yet it is she that is thrown out of the BNP? What does that tell you ?-- Streona ( talk) 09:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Implicitly fascist then.-- Streona ( talk) 08:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I recentlty came across this article regarding the loose use of the term fascist in regards to the BNP. [7] I think this should be considered as it backs my original claims that the term fascist is used as a political insult by anti-BNP types rather than a real discription of the party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk) 23:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I suggest you read the references cited. It is pointless to attempt to refute the use of the term fascist to describe the bnp unless you can discredit the refs and supply similarly persuasive citations to support your claims. 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 06:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I took a look at the references that assert the BNP are fascists and they do not assert that they`re fascists in an orthodox or traditional sense. This is obvious for anyone that follows the BNP because they do not quote any of the slogans from Nazi Germany or fascist Italy and they even use Winston Churchill in their political outreach. The references merely state that the BNP have traits in common with earlier fascist movements so this should be specified. I think it would appropriate to state in the information box that they are a British deviation of fascism.-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 17:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Michael Billig is bias in favour of Freudo-Marxism (cut from the Frankfurt School cloth). People who are actively working to subvert the West are not a neutral or reliable source for articles, especially on contested points such as this. In any case the BNP is not the NF. Can we have some non-far left academic sources which claim the BNP is ideologically "fascist"? What do Roger Griffin, Robert Paxton, Zeev Sternhell, Stanley G. Payne have to say on the issue? The fact that the party, even though it is completely legal in the UK to form a fascist party (or in fact any ideology), rejects the label is significant for it to be a violation of WP:BLP. In any case, regardless of what the party may or may not have been in the past, it is difficult to argue after Griffin's Haiderisation of the party that it is even that radical. It simply mixes populism with ethno-nationalism. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 17:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
So far, we have yet to see any specific claims to why the BNP is "fascist", to this point only numerous claims to why the BNP are not "fascist". But I am prepared for more of these leftist claims more or less just saying that "they just are fascist" and so on. Not allowing non-white members for instance do not at all equal a party of being "fascist", if that's the case there are numerous organizations in Britain that do not allow non-black, non-asian members. Is it a claim of intemidation or something like that? In that case the UAF are far more "fascist" than the BNP. Further, several of the users discussing here, like BritishWatcher, has shown in the topic below to have a clearly personal prejudgemental and biased view (maybe a UAF-activist even?), which means that the views presented by that person can not be taken seriously. - GabaG ( talk) 11:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
We have plenty of WP:RS that the BNP is fascist. That's the end of it as far as WP is concerned. Any removal of the term from he article will be contrary to the goals of this project, and will be viewed as disruptive editing. Verbal chat 12:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a770185679
I know you might try to dismiss it by saying it is just a review but the review was written by someone who obviously read the book and has been confided by the site that is being used as a reference to convey and summarize Copsey`s assertions so the reviewer`s interpretation of this book carries abundantly more weight than the interpretations of anybody here-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 17:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Not so long ago, Microsoft Encarta (1999 version) had managed to define the Norwegian Progress Party as "Neo-Nazi", and far-left ("social democratic nice organization") "SOS Racism" (leaders have links to Stalinist and Maoist groups) has publicly called it "Nazi". Just saying that even popularly renowned sources can be terribly wrong, or extremly biased. As such, I think it should at least be presented the specific reasons to why the BNP are fascist, so that eventually the discussion could be closed, in either "direction". (Just to say, I do think the BNP have some very stupid policies, like having ethnic requirements for membership. Nevertheless, I would like to see a truthful and neutral article about the party, thus removing possible political biased smears.) - GabaG ( talk) 23:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
"The full sentence is: "He concludes that ideological renewal under Griffin constitutes a recalibration of fascism rather than a fundamental break in ideological continuity" (my emphasis). In the article itself Copsey is even more explicit: "This does not represent some fundamental breach of ideological continuity. It is not the transformation from fascism to national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself. It once more testifies to the almost Darwinian ability of fascism to survive and adapt as an ideology. Adversaries are therefore quite justified in their vilification of the BNP as fascist although, for the sake of accuracy, the 'neo-fascist' label is more exact"
Firstly, the point here is not denying whether the BNP is fascist or not but the need to specify in the article that the BNP are a deviation or a recalibration of fascism rather than a fascist party in an orthodox or traditional sense. Calling them neo-fascist would not be the appropriate thing to do because Neo-fascist is essentially the same, the prefix "neo" is merely added by some people to distinguish between Mussolini and Hitler and fascists/nazis today.
"national-populism but the recalibration and modernization of fascism itself"
THIS IS PRECISELY MY POINT. They are a recalibration or modern deviation of fascism and it appears that you agree with me so obviously there is a consensus here to present the BNP as a modern deviation of traditional fascism.As Red Deathy said, if you recalibrate a rifle it is still a rifle but if your a vendor of firearms it is your responsibility to inform the buyer that a certain model has been recalibrated as it is wikipedia`s responsibility to inform people that the BNP are a recalibration or (as I think would be a more appropriate term for an a political group or movement) a deviation of fascism-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 16:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
-"it is but one source out of five"
Renton appears to be most recent so his interpretation that the BNP are a recalibration or a deviatiobn(as I word it) is the most relevant of the sources.
-"If you want to be consistent, go to the articles on the Conservative Party (or any other party of your choice) and see if you can get away with describing them as "recalibrated""
This is the reason why the term NEO-CONS or Neo-Conservatives is employed to describe men like Bush who deviate from what Conservatives once were. The term Neo-fascist cannot be used because unfortunately it is often used in an erroneous context to describe fascists or Nazis who share the exact same ideology as Hitler or Mussolini but who were born afterwards.
-"All parties have changed as time passes"
Yes, Orthodox Nazi or fascist parties like the American Nazi Party have changed but ther ideology still remains explicitly Nazi. The BNP`s ideology has deviated from that position in recent years so even if they still retain characteristics of a Fascist group they are nontheless an altered version of it,as the reference clearly indicates, and this needs to be specified if wikipedia desires to be an accurate source of information.-- Spitzer19 ( talk) 17:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Fascist Deviants? Bit POV but it has a ring to it.-- Streona ( talk) 08:39, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
If " fascism" absolutely have to be stated in the infobox, I think it should be replaced with the more suiting explanation of " Fascist (epithet)". - GabaG ( talk) 18:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
As the fascism label is n the info box this deserves the same level of importance as racism or Anti-Semitism, its fundamental to those who oppose them. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:31, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I was just listening to the radio and wondered what would be in wikipedia under BNP. To be honest I was pleasantly surprised by the intro - I've had experience of articles which are just blatant propoganda, and largely the intro seemed relatively unbiased. However, reading the talk, I found the controversy about "fascism" (Every article has their controversy ... it's the best bit to read!). Anyway, in the past I did some research on the faesces of Rome so I thought I'd have a look. Whilst the section on fascism seems to hold up as "truthful", to be honest I couldn't see it doing anything except offering a lot of (to be honest) spurious quotes that allowed one side to call the party fascist, without really going into the technical definition of fascism. That is to say, it is clearly mud slinging, but it really doesn't add anything to the sum of human knowledge. Then I went to the wikipedia article on fascism, and to be blunt, I've seldom read such twaddle ... and quite clearly there is no real modern definition and to devote a whole section to "opinion about whether this party is fascist or not", seems to me a complete waste of a bandwidth. So I would propose throwing out the whole section and leaving something like: "the BNP are often described as fascist although the exact definition on fascism within the post WWII context is unclear" in the intro. 88.110.76.120 ( talk) 12:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I know the BNP are a bunch of crazy racists, but this article seems very biased against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.237.132 ( talk) 01:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
The basic problem is that Wikipedia has basic values to do with how a discourse is conducted and how knowledge evolves (peer review, respect for each other regardless of ethnic or national origin, politeness etc.) and the basic values of the BNP and those who apologise for it in these pages are at variance. Karl Popper described fascism as "mankind's periodic retreat from freedom & reason" and if Wikipedia is not about freedom & reason then it would not exist.-- Streona ( talk) 19:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
"was still having extensive contacts with the National Alliance as recently as 2003" needs checking, not only is there contracdictory sources but also the source given for thisclaim does not make it, and more over the writer stoped his interviews (according to the source) the year before. Moreover this seems to be a review (see my comment about facist label). Slatersteven ( talk) 19:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
http://www.redwatch.org.uk/bn1.jpg seesm to be broke. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC) The link still does not work, so why were sources that did work removed. Moreover the passage does not say the BNP denies any links. I also belive that the fact that Mr Sheppard was explelled from the BNP is of great relevance. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC) As the source does not work I nave reverted to my version. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:50, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I feel this violates WP:UNDUE having the party categorised under this label. Homophobia is not a large part of their agenda. Furthermore, this article has undue weight on the anti-homosexual ideas within the BNP. It's not a big deal.-- Bulgarian Psychology Professor ( talk) 21:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Don't mention the Ware! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. -- Streona ( talk) 08:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
This would probably fall under their general opposition to Cultural Marxism and political correctness, rather than "homophobia". For instance, currently taxpayers are forced to pay for "
Manchester Pride" a major LGBT advocacy parade. Even people who may find this in direct opposition to their own personal views or contrary to their religious values, they have no choice but to pay for it, with the money they have earned, due to Loony Labour's Cultural Marxism. As this party doesn't seem to be "against homosexuals" in general (I can't find anything to say homosexuals can't join their party), but rather against Cultural Marxists using the
Sexual Revolution as a weapon in public, this tag would seem to be a strech. -
Yorkshirian (
talk)
06:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
On the nail-bomb attack in Soho: ‘Dozens of “gay” demonstrators flaunting their perversion in front of the world’s journalist showed why so many people find these creatures so repulsive’ (Nick Griffin — Spearhead June 1999)
Perhaps one should look within his own tortured psyche for the explanation of Griffin's evident bitterness-- Streona ( talk) 07:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Again, and I have pointed this out to other editors, you have reinserted this cat without any discussion or any consensus, you have reinserted it and then come to discuss it, this is not the way to affect change here at wikipedia that way to affect change is through discussion. Reinserting your favoured position without discussion weakens your position. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
The cat must clearly stay. The reasons for this have been explained in detail above. 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 20:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
If the BNP's new constitution which Griffin is due to present in court in January comes into effect, they will no longer be an "whites-only" party. But they've made it clear they still wish to be. Should their Wiki page still carry the label "whites only"? Just to clarify, I'm not arguing this change should be made now, just starting the discussion for when it happens :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.202.45 ( talk) 21:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it should we need to get itsorted but bear in mind that the BNP has decided not to admit any new members until after the January EGM when Griffin will lay it down to the membership about the new constitution which is expected to concentrate more power in the hands of the hierarchy a=in order to prevent the party being taken over by the non-white hordes.-- Streona ( talk) 23:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually I believe the EGM will be in November 2009 but the return to court date is 28 Jan 2010 and if they have not changed the Constitution as required then the Court will take steps against them and they are not taking new membership applications until then, although perhaps the BNP application form should be overprinted "Smile; You're on Wikileaks!"-- Streona ( talk) 14:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I see that Slatersteven reverted my edits on the fascist nature of the BNP. Unfortunately, what he has done has gone back to a section which is inaccurate and not particularly informative. For example, despite what some disruptive editors have argued in this talk page, the BNP has NOT been described as a "recalibration and modernization" of fascism in any of the sources quoted, or anywhere else for that matter! This was a deliberate misreading of one article's abstract by someone who never actually read the article itself! Further, to quote just one politician (Cameron) as calling them fascist is disingenuous - dozens have - and then to give three quotes for BNP denial is just pointless when one would do. This in itself suggests a distinct lack of balance. I can agree that a proper section on Fascism is needed in this article; however the current one is not it. For this reason, I have reverted to my version which I would ask editors to accept as a temporary measure which at least covers the issue until such time as we can come up with a decent section and not this nonsense.
In the policy section it should be simple; present the details of what is contained within their policy. For instance "In their manifesto, the BNP has said such and such" or "while MEPs and part of the London Assembly, the party has such and such". Utilising Herbert Marcuse's critical theory, by using big, distracting words in an attempt to blacklist (in this case manifest political opponents falling over themselves screaming "fascist! fascist!"), without actually presenting to the reader what their policy is at all, in a section which is called "policy", surely is not NPOV. If the "Fascism" WP:BLP section is kept it should be merged into the "opposition" section. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 21:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Big push before the question time appearance eh lads? -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 21:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I can't believe nobody add the 2009 Copsey book - people should keep an eye out for this popping up in 2010. it's great that the article has so many high quality sources to add. -- Cameron Scott ( talk) 21:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
The lede is a general overview of the important aspect of the BNP, the long list at the end of the leader of the other parties each with a seperate cite doea not belong in the lede, it is basically a list of people saying why they don't like the BNP and that is not what the lede is for. Off2riorob ( talk) 18:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes yes,,,have a read and thanks for the link, whatever, if there is a discussion on the talkpage regarding an issue as there was here , to first edit to your preffered version and then come here to talk about it is....a poor way to join in the discussion. It would have been nice if you would have joined the discussion and offered your opinion but you didn't. Off2riorob ( talk) 15:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
It does not say on the labour party lede that the tories think they are rubbish does it? no it doesn't, it doesn't say on the condervative party lede that the labour leader things they are right wing fools does it? no it doesn't..and a long list of negative comments from leaders of opposition parties that don't like the bnp does not belong in the lede here either. Off2riorob ( talk) 17:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Usersnowed has replaced the non notable critisism to the lede with the edit summary... (restore, take controversial changes to talk page)... and he has not even made one comment here...what bigotry. suggesting to take it to the talk page when there is clearly a big discussion here already and he (USER snowed ) has not even commenyed. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
what rubbish...ow gordon brown says he doesnt like them and david cameron says he doesnt like them and nick clegg also says he doesnt like them. Perhaps adding that to the lede will make a more imformative article Off2riorob ( talk) 21:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, Sticks and Stones (Nursery Rhyme) comes to mind, I ensure you your opinionated constructive criticism is valuable to me, and your this user has been banned before comment is also of value to me. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:25, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The full interview is now oonline here it is perhaps it is useful for additions or to be added as an external link. Off2riorob ( talk) 12:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to sort out the policy section to have it into three sections "Social, Economic and Foreign", but Verbal is playing up. First of all hes wholesale reverting attempts to create these sections on their policy and second of all he is violating WP:NPOV and WP:BLP by putting a section called "fascism" into the policy section, which is more about opponents name calling, rather than a presentation of this parties stated political policies. Discuss. - Yorkshirian ( talk) 20:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
what does this mean? ... "The party's racial policies have led to their ostracism by mainstream politicians".. Off2riorob ( talk) 21:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Reading the citation, I found the comment.. Robert Cockroft, editor of the Barnsley Chronicle, believes mainstream politicians must start engaging, not ostracising, the BNP.
I think that we need to attribute the comment to him. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
but when you do that.... Robin Cockcroft an editor of the Barnsley Chronicle was quoted as saying he believed that mainstream politicians must start engaging, not ostracising, the BNP.
looking at the article addition to the article and the actual comment in the citation, I would say the comment has been taken out of context, and when put nto context correctly as I have here, it is not really noteworthy of inclusion in the lede at all. Also it looks like OR to specifically state that the so called ostrasization is as a fact because of their racist policies. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
So then what we have is that this ostrasization comment is added to the leaders of the three parties to give us this....
The party is ostracised by mainstream politicians and the leaders of Westminster's major parties,[22] including Conservative Party leader David Cameron,[23] Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Liberal Democrat party leader Nick Clegg.[24]
The vast majority of which is not covered in the citation and seems to me 2 plus 2 is 4. Its a poor addition. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) It's quite amusing that you have the nerve to accuse me of OR, then add OR yourself. Reverted to consensus lead free of OR. Also don't attempt to patronise me with encyclopedic claims, I've written a featured article, six good articles and countless DYK articles, what have you done? 2 lines of K 303 14:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
This cite in the lede is not a wp reliable the mirror? .. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Myself I dont think such as this is really at all encyclopedic..if you think it is please say.. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I would say add it as well if user slaterstephen likes the mirror cite.Or place it here please and i'll have a look and see what is written there Off2riorob ( talk) 19:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Revision 320975441 by Boxersoft was undone by FormerIP with the comment 'Please don't remove sourced material without discussion'. As far as I'm aware, that revision added a reference and removed nothing - at least that was my intention when making the edit. Explain please? Boxersoft ( talk) 10:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
BNP membership has been controversial among politicians. on 20th October 2009, The guardian and many other main stream media companies reported a possible leak of the BNP membership on wikileaks. the membership was also available on wikileaks as late as 13:00hrs. Prince Waters (talk page) 13:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
It is apparently cvery popular as wikileaks has crashed. Apparently there are 16,000 names by the BNP only has a little under 12,000 members. It seems another disgruntled former BNP member is reponsible.-- Streona ( talk) 14:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, when the bnp (as it is doing at the moment) comes in line with all legal requirements that the bnp will be able to request the its members are not given any action (the police don't allow membership) as to do that would be unfair to the members of what is about to become a totally legal constitution. I think that we should remove the whites only tag as membership under those conditions are closed, and the party has agreed to change that. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
BNP insists 'member list' is a hoax [13] Off2riorob ( talk) 20:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Well they would say that, wouldn't they? I notice Colin Auty's name is still there and he was supposed to have been expelled. Especially since one member at least has given their work email in the nhs (Carolyn Allen since you ask). Peter Hain has argued that the BBC Question Time should not invite Griffin as the BNP are NOT a legally constituted party ( although why this would preclude them from appearing I am not certain)until the changes required by the Court are ratified, which they are not. The BNP are have frozen membership until then so until the end of the year they are still whites only and the article will have to change when the matter has been resolved.-- Streona ( talk) 16:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Why no opportunity to mention (with edit option removed) that non whites have in recent years voted BNP to protest against islamic extremists in Britain, a Sikh even featured in a BNP political broadcast saying why he would vote BNP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.20.156 ( talk) 08:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Dont be ridiculous. This is not a place for thinly disguised propoganda for the hatefull stereotyping of the BNP. Mentioning that thier vile campaign of lies to create hatred against moslems has appeared to suceed in recruiting them bigots would seem more honest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.240.29 ( talk) 02:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Can you provide a reference for this? Also the possibility that one man may have voted for them is hardly proof that any other Asians have. The ballot box is allegedly secret-- Streona ( talk) 09:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm removing both the quotes about him as unverifiable, and yes I've looked before removing them. One in particular was quite misleading anyway as the Harrods bombing being referred to was in 1993, and the attack on the "comrade" of the bombers was in 1991. 2 lines of K 303 13:22, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Nick Griffin's comment on BBCQT regarding gay couples kissing (and how he sees it as "really creepy") could be made more neutral in terms of P.o.V. He followed this by slamming the Jan Moirs article in the Daily Mail. Lexinjusta ( talk) 16:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Their website contains everyone of there policies in high detail, should we update the article to reflect these, i belive this would improve neutrality for many reasons. One is that some of the current 'Policies' are not actual policies, or not directly stated as such, and so not only wrong, it is bias against them, with listing some of there more unorthadox 'policies'.
Immigration -
Crime and Punishment
British Economy -
Education
Health Sector -
Housing
Northern Ireland -
Defence
Foreign Affairs -
Democracy
—Preceding
unsigned
Emperor King (
talk)
21:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Deport all the two million plus who are here illegally;
- Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British;
- Review all recent grants of residence or citizenship to ensure they are still appropriate;
- Offer generous grants to those of foreign descent resident here who wish to leave permanently;
- Stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases;
- Reject all asylum seekers who passed safe countries on their way to Britain."
This is taken straight from the BNP's website, previously cited by User:Emperor King. It is a clear statement of their immigration policy. None of this information appears under the article's subheading "Racial and Immigration Policies". Instead, there is a fairly convoluted set of inflammatory quotes and a perusal into the BNP's alleged racism. Essentially, it is a very disjointed piece of writing. In fact, a Control+F search of the "British National Party" article reveals that it doesn't even include the word 'deport'. Much of the information is important, and the BNP's ambiguous definitions of 'racism' are definitely food for thought, but overall this subheading is unacceptable. It contains little relevant information, and blatantly ignores core issues.
The lede is a mess and in need of a good copy edit, it is full of citations and comments that don't belong there, I wanted to suggest a copy edit by an experienced neutral editor. Off2riorob ( talk) 23:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
' alledged internal problems ' - this article is flagged as long, this section does not add much to the article, remove? The BNP is awash with similar stories of incompetance and i wonder why those cited are seen as worthy of mention. It seems odd to have a section that ' alledges' anything. BTW I am new at this so forgive any breaches of form. Vertovian ( talk) 10:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
"Griffin has urged nationalists to join the BNP and use the ballot box instead of violence if only for the sake of their judicial activism." I have two issues with this firstly its in the section about 'Relations with neo-Nazi, terrorist and paramilitary groups' but the source is talking about the BNP, not other groups (the tile gives it away 'Nick Griffin, Party Chairman, alerts the membership to the dangers of a media inspired trap.'). Two I can't find in the source any thing the says he is asking non BNP members to not use violence but instead to support the BNP). Nor can I find any mention of him asking BNP members not to be violent, just to avoid such confrotation (though it does say that the BNP have moved away from street brawls. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Lets see... there were 5 citations in the infobox to support accusations of facsism...user cameron has seen the necessesity to add another,,, now there are 6.. Off2riorob ( talk) 21:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC) and...clegg and brown and cameroon don't like them. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
To be clear to you user cameron scott, there were already 5 cites in the infobox to support claims of fassssisim and you felt ther need to add a 6th.... your addition adds nothing of value tooot he article, actually it just makes it a little bit more ..less neutral.. no one will ever cli8ck on the link you hacve added..excessive pov pushing links like the one you have added do nothing but demean the wiki. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
This whole fascism label is completely bogus, just because known left-wing journalists/news sources like the Sun, Independant etc call them that it doesn't make it true; particularly as they never explain their reasoning but just resort to digging up irrelevant things from the BNP's past - which Griffin publically denounced as anti-semetic and racist on "question time". The article is also very inconsistant with those of similar Nationalist parties in Europe like Jobbik, FPO etc as these articles are much more fairly written and simply state that the media and their political opponents often acccuse them of Fascism although they themselves deny it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.100.211.178 ( talk) 23:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Recent links for research.
Griffin: The Generals Have Got It Wrong, sky video oct 20 2009
[14]
BNP's Griffin: Islam is a cancer [15]
Who voted BNP and why? [16]
Who's afraid of the BNP? [17]
Griffin: The Generals Have Got It Wrong, sky video oct 20 2009 [18]
[19]-- Die4Dixie ( talk) 02:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Suggest adding him to ' structure ' section. Legal Director - Lee John Barnes. Vertovian ( talk) 10:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
"Historically the BNP (including Nick Griffin) was overtly anti-Semitic; in recent history the BNP has instead focused on Islam". This sentence doesn't really seem to be supported by the refs, and is in fact quite misleading. The BNP haven't suddenly changed from an anti-Semitic party to an anti-Islam party, for the majority of their history the anti-Pakistani bias was quite clear. What seems to have been the catalyst for the slight refocussing from anti-Pakistani to anti-Islam are the BNP's various legal problems for inciting racial hatred, plus the anti-Islam bandwagon is better to jump on since 9/11, 7/7 etc. Any ideas on how this should read instead? 2 lines of K 303 14:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
To make this a more unbiased article wouldnt it be an idea to also state that the BNP now has jewsih members and even a jewish councillor?
There is a dispute over which version of these two comments is better in the lede, opinions are very welcome..
One.
The mainstream political parties in the
UK represented by
Conservative Party leader
David Cameron,
Labour
Prime Minister
Gordon Brown and
Liberal Democrat party leader
Nick Clegg have strongly opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP and have all refused to engage with them.
[21]
[22]
[23]
Two.
The party is ostracised by mainstream politicians,
[24]
[25] and opposed by the leaders of Westminster's major parties, including
Conservative Party leader
David Cameron,
[1]
Labour
Prime Minister
Gordon Brown,
[26] and
Liberal Democrat party leader
Nick Clegg.
[27]
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Unfortunately the comments above and below show that Off2riorob has a major problem with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Despite me saying my objections were based on OR (and BigDunc also pointing it out) he ignores them completely and starts this RFC that is little more than a !vote asking "which is better". My objections are not even presented in the RFC, so it looks as though my objections are based on a mere "I prefer that version" and not the reality, which is that my objections are based on OR. We are dealing with a classic case of WP:SYN, no matter how much he ignores what people say and relies on proof by assertion. The problem is as follows:
So here comes the synthesis:
None of the sources actually say *why* they oppose the BNP. Let's take the Nick Clegg cite for example:
Source: Nick Clegg of the Liberal Democrats called it a "party of thugs and fascists" Slight paraphrase of Off2riorob's version: Nick Clegg has strongly opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP
Bit of a difference isn't there? WP:V says "The source cited must unambiguously support the information as it is presented in the article", that's being thrown out of the window clearly. WP:OR says "To demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented", guess that's being thrown out of the window too? The same applies to Brown and Cameron, they don't say *why* they oppose the BNP, or certainly not in a way that supports the claims Off2riorob is making.
Could the lead be improved? Absolutely, but not while editors edit war, ignore policy at will and fail to engage in constructive discussion and refuse to listen to anything other editors say. 2 lines of K 303 12:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Umm, ive not been following the debate but the comment about refusing to engage with them no longer correctly applies considering the mainstream parties have all engaged in battle with the criminal on Question time. Times appear to have changed, the previous plan of ignoring them is no longer productive. In truth im no fan on either of those sentences although clearly something is needed to explain the relationship with the mainstream parties but it needs to be very clear why they take such an a view (because of BNP extremist policies and criminal activity inciting racial hatred and discrimination. BritishWatcher ( talk) 20:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Reply to BigDunc..The comment is almost unquestionable and is in no way original research. Such accusations are ridiculous. It is a simple clear comment in the lead that is unquestionable, the comment is totally citable or in fact is already cited. It is actually the ostracised comment in comment two that is uncited. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Looks to me like their is a consensus to remove the comment from the lede altogether. Off2riorob ( talk) 08:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
version three
The mainstream political parties in the UK have strongly opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP and have all refused to engage with them. [28] [29] [30]
The mainstream political parties in the UK have opposed the policies of Griffin and the BNP and have all refused to engage with them. [31] [32] [33] Off2riorob ( talk) 18:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I prefer the second version. It is shorter and clearer. Politicians from far left and right have been universal not only in thier condemnation for the ideology of the party but also personally for ng and many in the party. 'Ostracise' is an accurate portrayal of this, but ' refused to engage' is woolly. Vertovian ( talk) 07:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a proposal too. Some people who are involved in this discussion are behaving appalingly and making the process of creating a worthy page very frustrating. Is it so hard to be objective, even if you are a BNP supporter? Frankly I despair. It is silly too - I find myself unable to take some contributors seriously as they bleat on in the face of sensible cited reasoned respones. I am not a supporter of the party but I also realise that ' truth ' is more valuable than ' spume ' in the entry. I suggest some contributors need to reflect on this. For myself I am aware of my possible bias in this subject and try extra hard to be objective - it is clear to me others are either not aware of thier own bias or are behaving innapropriately. I have only been ' here' for a few days and I am already vexed by some peoples belligerance. I would be very sad if anyone here is a BNP cyber activist, or indeed an antifa activist, and is campaigning on this page. Vertovian ( talk) 08:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Looking for a solution to what is a lot of discussion over a small change, I have removed what big dunc claims is original research and what is left is perhaps a compromise between the people that supported neither and the people supporting version one...this...
The mainstream political parties in the UK have all refused to engage with them.[22][23][24] Off2riorob ( talk) 13:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this specific edit that you have reverted, what are your specific objections to that edit? Never mind the whole rest of the article is also a mess, this discussion is about this specific simple change to remove what is considered to be by many people here, excessive detail. Off2riorob ( talk) 14:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
David Cameron also said that UKIP were "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists". So how much weight can we give to such bigots who are clearly nothing more than politically biased before it gets utterly meaningless. If the most rightist of the three mainstream parties manage to use such statements on even a party much less extreme than BNP, how do you think any of the mainstream parties will say anything not biased about the BNP? I suggest the section should be removed alltogehter or strongly shortened and summarized (as suggested by Off2riorob). - GabaG ( talk) 13:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Neither: Is it really needed for a critisism of the party to be placed in its introduction? All political parties bring controversy, as that is their nature. I believe both statements would be a use of POV that would not be appropriate here. Reubzz ( talk) 16:57, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Ther seem to be some issues here with sources thaty need looking into. http://web.archive.org/web/20070629010001/http://www.bnp.org.uk/resources/constitution_8ed.pdf appears (at this time) to be broke. http://web.archive.org/web/20080123101730/http://www.bnp.org.uk/donate/ Appears (at best) to be an old BNP website, also the info appears to be out of date. Also since when has a blog been RS?. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
According to this [ [34]] Simon Bennett is the BNp's webmaster. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
For further information on immigration into the UK, go to [ [35]
In his appearance during an interview with Adam Boulton, Nick Griffin stated that Windrush was the start of immigration into the UK, and that this and further decisions over immigration were made by a political elite without effective consultation with the British population. [2] Not knowing what Windrush was, I decided to research it and to include some information here about it.
Windrush
Both male and female Jamaican settlers arrived in Britain in 1948 aboard the former troopship, MV Empire Windrush. At the end of the Second World War, Britain was busy rebuilding its shattered economy and infrastructure and the Labour government started to think about recruiting workers from the Caribbean to cope with the shortage of labour in some British industries. [3] Some industries and companies sought to recruit staff from the colonies – London Transport, for example, which brought many West Indians over to work on the Underground. In 1948, an advertisement appeared in a Jamaican newspaper and stated that there were 300 places on board Windrush for anyone wishing to travel to Britain. When the ship departed on 24th May, all 300 places were taken and an extra 192 men made the voyage on the deck. Most of those travelling were women or ex-servicemen who did not know what fate awaited them in Britain. Some had jobs promised to them, mainly in the RAF. The majority, however, had no idea what they would do when they arrived. As the ship neared its destination, newspapers fomented public discontent at its arrival, and questions were asked in Parliament.
The ship landed at Tilbury docks on 21st June. The Civil Service sent a black officer, Ivor Cummings, to meet the new arrivals. It was a big problem finding them somewhere to live so, as a short-term measure, the Colonial Office was forced to house 230 Windrush settlers in a deep air raid shelter in Clapham Common. The nearest labour exchange to the shelter was Brixton and, as a result, many of the settlers set up home there, making it one of Britain's first Caribbean communities. [4] There was plenty of work available in Britain, mostly labouring jobs in the big cities. Black Caribbeans were generally shut out of higher-paid jobs, especially those that were heavily unionised. However, the public sector offered them reasonably well-paid work, for example in hospitals, the General Post Office, London Transport and the railways. Housing was a huge problem and stayed that way for the next two decades. There was plenty of work, but the Caribbeans first clashed with the natives over the issue of accommodation.
The arrival of the Windrush was the start of a period of migration from the Caribbean to Britain that did not slow down until 1962. By 1955, 18,000 Jamaicans had moved to Britain and, since they were excluded from much of the social and economic life around them, they began to adapt the institutions they brought with them - the churches, and a co-operative method of saving called the 'pardner' system. At the same time, Caribbeans began to participate in institutions to which they did have access: trade unions, local councils, and professional and staff associations.
In conclusion, this outward flow of people to settle in Britain was an important event in the history of the West Indies and it was also to change the social landscape of Britain in a dramatic fashion. In 1945, Britain's non-white residents numbered in the low thousands. By 1970 they numbered approximately 1.4 million - a third of these children born in the United Kingdom. [5]
Can anyone who has done some research in this area confirm exactly what consultation was carried out by the politicians with the electorate? From the information I have gathered, it seems there was a certain amount of opposition to the immigration policy as well as tensions - over accommodation in particular. It does not appear that any referendum was conducted, and the only reason given was a shortage of labour, given that there were not enough European immigrants to do the mainly manual jobs (157,000 Poles were the first groups to be allowed to settle in the UK, partly because of ties made during the war years. These were joined by Italians but it was not enough to meet the need for labour at the time). Ivankinsman ( talk) 16:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Sources
As has been pointed out sources must back up the statemtn being made, I shall now start to remove statmentsd not backed up by sources. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I've added info about links between the EDL and BNP, which have been alleged in the press, but are denied by the BNP. How this should be worded is up for discussion. -- FormerIP ( talk) 22:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Why when using the BNP's constitution are wwe not usiing the latest edition? Slatersteven ( talk) 22:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)