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The difference between British Motor Holdings Limited and The British Motor Corporation Limited is no more than the name. If it is unclear could we discuss the matter here? Thanks, Eddaido ( talk) 10:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Whichever it really is/was, so far as is possible it will be labelled a "merger" so it doesn't frighten horses, children, employees, investing public etc. Eddaido ( talk) 23:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Jaguar was very much a minnow. Pressed Steel employed 26,000 at the time it disappeared into BMC. Pressed Steel did almost everything for Jaguar yet Jaguar was a small customer to Pressed Steel. Can anyone find how many Jaguar employed in 1966?
Lyons recognised he was unable to remain "independent" and that is why he elected to stay still between the rock and the hard place and minimise the pain of the rape of his business.
See my copy-typing from the newspapers of 1966 (which will appear, if I can manage it) below but I really do not understand why other editors rely on their "memories" when they can read the facts in old newspapers for themselves. Belong to a library? then you can access them from your home at absolutely no personal cost. All the references have been provided for you you just do not bother to take them up and as I have just pointed out they are very easily accessible to so many if not all of you!
Is all this just not more of the strange (and far too successful) WP syndrome of "I don't believe you", "I like my idea of events better", to the bitter end when the editor concerned does not care enough to try to find out for him or her self? Eddaido ( talk) 23:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
It was stated at the time that in view of the changed nature of the business it had been decided to change the name of the holding company to British Motor Holdings. I suppose half a century later Jaguar alone is still recognisable and it is forgotten how small it was. Most WP articles about cars and their manufacturing businesses are written by editors interested in just the product and any "personalities" they might choose to find. Eddaido ( talk) 23:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Cassius Clay redirects to Mohammed Ali so using that precedent then we should make the article British Motor Corporation a redirect to British Motor Holdings and not have two different articles. Will give the above my best attention in about another 12 hours, regards, Eddaido ( talk) 11:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
"Under a jointly agreed £18,200,000 deal announced last night, the Jaguar group of companies and the British Motor Corporation are to merge. In financial terms it is a take-over of Sir William Lyons's Coventry company by Sir George Harriman's Longbridge giant, the result of which will be a new group, comprising Jaguar, BMC and Pressed Steel-Fisher."
"Sir George Harriman, BMC's chairman , said the merger should be seen as a joining of forces designed to strengthen the motor industry in general. Jaguar will continue to operate as a separate entity "and with the greatest practical degree of autonomy" still under the chairmanship of Sir William Lyons, who is 65. Sir George Harriman is to be chairman of the new group and Sir William a director."
"News of the merger did not come as a surprise in the motor industry, where it had been known for some time negotiations were in the offing. . . . "
"BMC as Great Britain's biggest vehicle manufacturer hold 42 per cent of the market represented by an annual production of about 890,000, currently running at 19,500 units a week. Jaguar will give them only an extra 2 per cent of the market. or 30,000 vehicles per year.
Brand | Quantity | Share | |
---|---|---|---|
BMC | 890,000 | 40% | |
Jaguar | 30,000 | 1% | |
BMH | 920,000 | 42% | |
Standard-Triumph | 125,000 | 6% | |
Rover | 25,000 | 1% | |
Leyland | 150,000 | 7% | |
Ford | 590,000 | 27% | |
Vauxhall | 333,000 | 15% | |
Rootes | 220,000 | 10% | |
Rolls-Royce | 1,200 | 0% | |
Total | 2,214,200 | 100% |
From our City Editor
"The British Motor Corporation bid of £18,200,000 for Jaguar cars in financial terms is a take-over, but from a management point of view it will not happen in that way." (hush, children)
"The intention is for Jaguar BMC and Pressed Steel-Fisher to form a new group with a single holding company on top to be called British Motor (Holdings) under the chairmanship of Sir George Harriman, the present chairman of BMC. Sir William Lyons, chairman of Jaguar, will have a place on this main board. There is no question of the Jaguar name disappearing." (see—nothing will change, really)
"The terms offered to shareholders in Jaguar (the chairman and his family control more than half the voting shares) are:
for each A ordinary share, two ordinary shares of British Motor Corporation, plus 10s. 3d. of a new 7¾ per cent unsecured loan stock;
for each ordinary share, two ordinary shares of BMC plus 22s. 6d. of the new 7¾ percent unsecured loan stock.
This puts a value on the widely held A shares (those without a vote) of 38s. each which compares with a closing price last night of 32s."
I do not know the answer but history will have on record the fate (and the fate of their investment) of the Jaguar shareholders who took BMC (BL) shares and "unsecured loan stock" Still, Jaguar might well have gone bust all by itself. Eddaido ( talk) 00:08, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
B.M.C. / Jaguar
"BMC is not in the habit of making generous bids (see the offer for Pressed Steel) so its terms for Jaguar will be examined carefully. . . . Accurate assessment, it must be admitted at once, is impossible in the absence of Jaguar's profit figures for the year, which will close at the end of this month. Sir William Lyons, the chairman, refused to be drawn on this point yesterday evening. But on the 1964-65 outturn, Jaguar is being valued at around 11 times earnings. Two points can be made about this. It is a low price for a company with obvious potential whatever its latest figures may show. And, secondly, it is the sort of bargain-basement price which may tempt others to make a higher offer: Leyland for instance?
"Certainly it is international considerations which have occasioned the merger proposal. The plain fact is that the British motor industry is more widely fragmented than any other of the major producing countries." Eddaido ( talk) 00:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
"BMC's offer has now been declared unconditional, acceptances having been received in respect of over 86 per cent of the ordinary and over 81 per cent of the "A" ordinary shares. BMC will continue to take acceptances until further notice." Note that the interest rate on the unsecured loan stock had been increased from 7¾ to 8 per cent. Eddaido ( talk) 00:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so where are we going with this? Is there a recommendation there somewhere? GTHO ( talk) 07:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- 1967 Benn - join Leyland it has Donald Stokes
On 17 January 1968 BMH merged with the smaller prosperous Leyland Motor Corporation to form the British Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC) on a one-for-one share exchange, valuing BMH at £201 million. BMH had reported a £3.4 million loss for 1966/7.
When last I heard, the point of an encyclopedia was to inform and the point of a section title was to summarize the content of the section. A reader looking for information is going to read the title of the section quoted above, read the text of the section, and find absolutely no connection between the title and the text. The text does not mention Benn or Stokes, nor, for that matter, does it mention 1967. In fact, the only mention of Donald Stokes in the entire article is in that section title, so readers of the article, who can be assumed to be uninformed and looking for information, will have not the first clue as to who Donald Stokes is or what his presence at Leyland has to do with anything. Sincerely, SamBlob ( talk) 11:01, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I find the information in the article under the above heading somewhat confusing. Firstly the reference given relates to the formation of BLMC, not BMH. Secondly the phrase "a millions copies". What does that mean? Thirdly, this section would seem to be better placed before "Merger with Leyland" rather than after it. GTHO ( talk) 10:42, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
British Motor Holdings article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
The difference between British Motor Holdings Limited and The British Motor Corporation Limited is no more than the name. If it is unclear could we discuss the matter here? Thanks, Eddaido ( talk) 10:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Whichever it really is/was, so far as is possible it will be labelled a "merger" so it doesn't frighten horses, children, employees, investing public etc. Eddaido ( talk) 23:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Jaguar was very much a minnow. Pressed Steel employed 26,000 at the time it disappeared into BMC. Pressed Steel did almost everything for Jaguar yet Jaguar was a small customer to Pressed Steel. Can anyone find how many Jaguar employed in 1966?
Lyons recognised he was unable to remain "independent" and that is why he elected to stay still between the rock and the hard place and minimise the pain of the rape of his business.
See my copy-typing from the newspapers of 1966 (which will appear, if I can manage it) below but I really do not understand why other editors rely on their "memories" when they can read the facts in old newspapers for themselves. Belong to a library? then you can access them from your home at absolutely no personal cost. All the references have been provided for you you just do not bother to take them up and as I have just pointed out they are very easily accessible to so many if not all of you!
Is all this just not more of the strange (and far too successful) WP syndrome of "I don't believe you", "I like my idea of events better", to the bitter end when the editor concerned does not care enough to try to find out for him or her self? Eddaido ( talk) 23:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
It was stated at the time that in view of the changed nature of the business it had been decided to change the name of the holding company to British Motor Holdings. I suppose half a century later Jaguar alone is still recognisable and it is forgotten how small it was. Most WP articles about cars and their manufacturing businesses are written by editors interested in just the product and any "personalities" they might choose to find. Eddaido ( talk) 23:11, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Cassius Clay redirects to Mohammed Ali so using that precedent then we should make the article British Motor Corporation a redirect to British Motor Holdings and not have two different articles. Will give the above my best attention in about another 12 hours, regards, Eddaido ( talk) 11:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
"Under a jointly agreed £18,200,000 deal announced last night, the Jaguar group of companies and the British Motor Corporation are to merge. In financial terms it is a take-over of Sir William Lyons's Coventry company by Sir George Harriman's Longbridge giant, the result of which will be a new group, comprising Jaguar, BMC and Pressed Steel-Fisher."
"Sir George Harriman, BMC's chairman , said the merger should be seen as a joining of forces designed to strengthen the motor industry in general. Jaguar will continue to operate as a separate entity "and with the greatest practical degree of autonomy" still under the chairmanship of Sir William Lyons, who is 65. Sir George Harriman is to be chairman of the new group and Sir William a director."
"News of the merger did not come as a surprise in the motor industry, where it had been known for some time negotiations were in the offing. . . . "
"BMC as Great Britain's biggest vehicle manufacturer hold 42 per cent of the market represented by an annual production of about 890,000, currently running at 19,500 units a week. Jaguar will give them only an extra 2 per cent of the market. or 30,000 vehicles per year.
Brand | Quantity | Share | |
---|---|---|---|
BMC | 890,000 | 40% | |
Jaguar | 30,000 | 1% | |
BMH | 920,000 | 42% | |
Standard-Triumph | 125,000 | 6% | |
Rover | 25,000 | 1% | |
Leyland | 150,000 | 7% | |
Ford | 590,000 | 27% | |
Vauxhall | 333,000 | 15% | |
Rootes | 220,000 | 10% | |
Rolls-Royce | 1,200 | 0% | |
Total | 2,214,200 | 100% |
From our City Editor
"The British Motor Corporation bid of £18,200,000 for Jaguar cars in financial terms is a take-over, but from a management point of view it will not happen in that way." (hush, children)
"The intention is for Jaguar BMC and Pressed Steel-Fisher to form a new group with a single holding company on top to be called British Motor (Holdings) under the chairmanship of Sir George Harriman, the present chairman of BMC. Sir William Lyons, chairman of Jaguar, will have a place on this main board. There is no question of the Jaguar name disappearing." (see—nothing will change, really)
"The terms offered to shareholders in Jaguar (the chairman and his family control more than half the voting shares) are:
for each A ordinary share, two ordinary shares of British Motor Corporation, plus 10s. 3d. of a new 7¾ per cent unsecured loan stock;
for each ordinary share, two ordinary shares of BMC plus 22s. 6d. of the new 7¾ percent unsecured loan stock.
This puts a value on the widely held A shares (those without a vote) of 38s. each which compares with a closing price last night of 32s."
I do not know the answer but history will have on record the fate (and the fate of their investment) of the Jaguar shareholders who took BMC (BL) shares and "unsecured loan stock" Still, Jaguar might well have gone bust all by itself. Eddaido ( talk) 00:08, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
B.M.C. / Jaguar
"BMC is not in the habit of making generous bids (see the offer for Pressed Steel) so its terms for Jaguar will be examined carefully. . . . Accurate assessment, it must be admitted at once, is impossible in the absence of Jaguar's profit figures for the year, which will close at the end of this month. Sir William Lyons, the chairman, refused to be drawn on this point yesterday evening. But on the 1964-65 outturn, Jaguar is being valued at around 11 times earnings. Two points can be made about this. It is a low price for a company with obvious potential whatever its latest figures may show. And, secondly, it is the sort of bargain-basement price which may tempt others to make a higher offer: Leyland for instance?
"Certainly it is international considerations which have occasioned the merger proposal. The plain fact is that the British motor industry is more widely fragmented than any other of the major producing countries." Eddaido ( talk) 00:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
"BMC's offer has now been declared unconditional, acceptances having been received in respect of over 86 per cent of the ordinary and over 81 per cent of the "A" ordinary shares. BMC will continue to take acceptances until further notice." Note that the interest rate on the unsecured loan stock had been increased from 7¾ to 8 per cent. Eddaido ( talk) 00:37, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so where are we going with this? Is there a recommendation there somewhere? GTHO ( talk) 07:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- 1967 Benn - join Leyland it has Donald Stokes
On 17 January 1968 BMH merged with the smaller prosperous Leyland Motor Corporation to form the British Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC) on a one-for-one share exchange, valuing BMH at £201 million. BMH had reported a £3.4 million loss for 1966/7.
When last I heard, the point of an encyclopedia was to inform and the point of a section title was to summarize the content of the section. A reader looking for information is going to read the title of the section quoted above, read the text of the section, and find absolutely no connection between the title and the text. The text does not mention Benn or Stokes, nor, for that matter, does it mention 1967. In fact, the only mention of Donald Stokes in the entire article is in that section title, so readers of the article, who can be assumed to be uninformed and looking for information, will have not the first clue as to who Donald Stokes is or what his presence at Leyland has to do with anything. Sincerely, SamBlob ( talk) 11:01, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I find the information in the article under the above heading somewhat confusing. Firstly the reference given relates to the formation of BLMC, not BMH. Secondly the phrase "a millions copies". What does that mean? Thirdly, this section would seem to be better placed before "Merger with Leyland" rather than after it. GTHO ( talk) 10:42, 4 June 2013 (UTC)