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With respect to the author of the first three paragraphs as of writing, I believe that the introduction to this article is in need of avoiding weasel words! To me, they read as if the author is an Irishman displeased with how ubiquitous the term "British Isles" is, and I get the impression that he doesn't want anyone to hear the term spoken without knowing that it's not so popular in the Republic. Highlights are mine:
The introduction spends more time telling us that the name is controversial to some, than it does telling us what it means! The name "traditionally given" implies that the name is archaic as opposed to official and current. We see twice "is understood in Britain", as if to say, "Only Britain even uses this term at all, of course - the rest of us don't!"
As I had always understood it, British Isles was the name of the north-western islands in Europe in an entirely geographical context as "The largest island on which Britain is situated, and the other islands around it". Admittedly it's not so flattering to proud Irishmen who don't like to play geographical second-string to a country who had conquered them less than a century ago, but it's a geographical term all the same and it's one which is far too set-in to see a change any time soon.
Surely it only requires one line to note that the term is disliked by some Irish people who feel it suggests British ownership, and then later expand on this in its own section? -- Jonathan Drain 01:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
"To me, they read as if the author is an Irishman displeased with how ubiquitous the term "British Isles" is, and I get the impression that he doesn't want anyone to hear the term spoken without knowing that it's not so popular in the Republic"
Oh, that's really coming from someone who wants a NPoV?
Monucg 20:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The term is actually common in the UK. It is used politically by a lot of people in the UK and some in the Republic(of Ireland). It's objected to by most of us in the Republic as it does imply that we are British (and let's face it, we have dropped plenty of hints over the last few hundred years that we didn't and don't want to be British).
It is the case that people in Britain will actually refer to the Republic as being British anyway without even mentioning the British Isles. For example, the "British [sic] runner" Eamonn Coughlan, the "British [sic] actress" Brenda Fricker. (There are numerous examples in the media and on the Web. I saw U2 being referred to as "the British band" on a BBC webpage recently.Though we do also have a UK-born Head of State. Interestingly, she isn't referred to as being British)
Part of the problem is that we (most of us Hibernians) have been reluctant to cut the umbilical cord fully. We didn't formally become the Republic until 01/01/49. Until then, the "King of England", actually the King of the UK, was formally our Head of State. Until recently more of us watched UK television stations than Irish ones. When we talk about "going abroad" for our holidays we mean outside of these terminologically disputed islands. We don't refer to the British as foreigners either (which they are) and they don't refer to us as foreigners either for the most part. Until recently you didn't need a passport to move within the "Common Travel Area". Plus, the bulk of us speak English (except in Connemara and Bradford).
If you go on holiday to Continental Europe you may find, as I did, that you will be talking to British natives who will talk to you about "the foreigners". I pointed out that we were actually foreigners to each other (that is, British to Irish), to stunned looks. If you say to people from Britain that you object to the term "British Isles" they will often be surprised but for a variety of reasons. For one, some genuinely can't see why it causes offence, others can't see why anyone (on the planet) wouldn't want to be British if they had the chance and a lot see it as the natural order of things (the BBC has a lot to answer for).
Another problem is that (as some commentators have alluded to) academics will publish tomes that seem to be a bit confused on the subject. It's a little disconcerting to read tomes by British historians that seem to be well written until you come across a line/sentence/paragraph relating to Ireland that belongs in the realm of the counterfactual or anachronistic. You then begin to wonder if the rest of the exegesis is flawed also. I must finish now as there is another can of lager in the fridge calling out to me. Regards, Damian.
clearly there IS a term 'british isles' but the truth about it is that it's used in britian but generally irish people dont like it. the fact of the matter is; the term was invented by british people and is used by british people - irish people rarely use it and most find it amusing that the british people who use it are so inward looking that they continue to use it long after it's use became outdated. The term is clearly politicaly incorect, and given that irish people dont like it, it's hardly prudent to have an article on it without making this matter clear - doing otherwise would be to supress the truth. someone mentioned that this article should be about geography and not about politics - well sorry to say but, geography is based on politics - you cant say that kashmir is part of india without mentioning that it's disputed by pakistan now can you. Bob
The term British Isles dates back to Roman times at least. It was not invented by British people as it predated the foundation of the British state by many, many centuries. Indeed, the British state chose the adjective "British" to describe itself precisely because it was a pre-existing and long-established geographical term. So "most" Irish people find it amusing that we still use the term British Isles, do they? Well I find it amusing that the Irish can get so worked up over a basic misunderstanding, namely that the "British" in British Isles refers to the British state - which it doesn't. If the Irish want to get annoyed over something, then they ought to complain that the British state has stolen the word "British" for its own use. TharkunColl 07:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm Irish but I have done my schooling in England and Ireland. I can tell you now that in Ireland "British Isles" generally does not refer to Ireland, but in England it does. Now I know there are instances in Ireland where this is incorrect, however the general feeling is correctly detailed within this wiki article and NPOV stands. - Hobbes.ie
The only legal term recognised by both the UK and Irish governments when referring to the Archipeligo is 'these Islands.' Strand Three, The Agreement, 10/04/1998. There are many precedents for geographical terms (e.g. Benelux, Central Europe, North America etc.) being legally and politically recognised - the 'British Isles' is not one of them. The term is not used in legislation in either jurisdiction.
The term 'British' Isles is not purely geographic no matter how hard one may attempt to protest that it is - it has geo-political implications. Ireland is NOT a British Isle, however, it is a part of the same archipeligo as Great Britain. The term 'British' Isles is unacceptable when referring to Ireland under any circumstances; whether they be purely geographic, political, legal etc.
One cannot escape the English language definition of British i.e. of or relating to the island of Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language. Under this basic definition how can Ireland be deemed a British Isle? It is a complete non sequitur. Ireland is not British thus is not a part of the 'British' Isles. Ireland's identity is Irish and European - it certainly is not British. Iolar Iontach
From reading the statutes which you have provided it is clear that Ireland is no longer included in the term. The majority of the statutes which you have are amendments which support my previous claim that the 'British' Isles is not a legal term in either jurisdiction. It was in the UK but is not any longer. British Isles has been substituted for British Islands and Republic Of Ireland (sic) or the United Kingdom, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and Republic of Ireland (sic). The Education (Listed Bodies) Order, 1997 refers to a theological college known as British Isles Nazarene College. The name of a 3rd level institution does not qualify it as a legal term.
I might draw your attention to the fact that the legislation you have provided gets the name of Ireland wrong - the name of Ireland is quite simply Ireland (Art 4, Bunreacht na hÉireann, 1937). The Republic of Ireland is only a description of the type of government in place in Ireland (s2 Republic of Ireland Act, 1948). If the UK government has difficulty understanding what the name of one of its closest European neighbours is it isn't any wonder that its citizenry has difficulty comprehending the fact that Ireland is NOT a British Isle?
'These Isles' is the only legal term used in BOTH jurisdictions. I agree that it is rather vague but it is more acceptable than the misnomer the 'British' Isles. I refer you again to the definition of British in the de facto official language of the United Kingdom. (As a lawyer I am aware that the UK does not actually have an official language). It is a non sequitur to refer to Ireland as a 'British' Isle. If your own language negates your views why do you insist upon them? Why do you insist upon including Ireland in an anachronistic term? If the consensus in Ireland (I include the UK region of Northern Ireland in this) is that it is not a 'British' Isle, why must you insist upon referring to it as such? One could consider it as tantamount to an attack on Irish sovereignty - I do not but I find it quite humorous that the British can be so ill-informed and arrogant.
Also, Google is an excellent tool if used correctly. One should actually read its results instead of posting a link at a cursory glance. Iolar Iontach
'These Isles' is extremely common in Irish media and Ireland in general; see what I have just googled. It gets more hits in google.ie than British Isles. To claim that 'British Isles' is the only commonly used term for the archipeligo is extremely anglocentric. The term has been replaced in all UK legislation (in which it was used) to my knowledge. Nowhere have I said that the article should be removed or renamed, however, problems with usage should be more prominent in the article. I trust we are all agreed that a significant proportion of citizens in the archipeligo have difficulty with the term? Same should receive more prominence; perhaps in an article about 'these Isles.' When the name for the archipeligo is formally changed will you have difficulty accepting that? The non sequitur, which I point out is not a side issue, it relates to the English language definition of the adjective in question. Your own language negates your claims. Can you not recognise that referring to Ireland as a British Isle is clearly absurd? Also just because a term is in 'common' parlance does not make it correct. 'These Isles' is legally defined in Strand Three p2 of the Agreement, this definition was used in the establishment of the British-Irish Council (N.B. it is NOT the British Isles Council) and it is in currency in Ireland. It is vague but it merits an article. I would argue that 'Britain and Ireland' is more common than the 'British Isles' when referring to entire archipeligo. The Manx and Channel Islanders are British Citizens (Interpretation Act, 1978 & British Nationality Act, 1981) after all thus it is accurate, inclusive and neutral. Iolar Iontach
The use of 'British' Isles in a language indigenous (English) to same is not classical it is relatively recent c.1600. There is no equivalent term in Irish. If we are using classical sources to justify the name, why not refer to Ireland as Hibernia, France as Gaul and the sun revolving around the earth? Utter nonsense. We have increased our knowledge since Greco-Roman times. Iolar Iontach
The First Official Language of Ireland is Irish (Art 8 s1, Bunreacht na hÉireann) and just to say that it had been used in English does not mean it is correct. I never accepted that it is correct just pointed out that the term was never used in the supposed area until c1600. It is not a purely geographic term, it is a misnomer that has political implications. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Iolar Iontach
Your argument is dead in the water. I'm not an Irish nationalist yet I object to the term - I am entirely satisfied (actually happy) for Northern Ireland's constitutional status as an integral part of the UK to remain in perpetuity. It's non-usage in Ireland is certainly not determined by political stance, it is determined by the fact that Ireland is not British. This is due to our understanding of the English Language. The Pretannic Isles is not the same as 'British' Isles which you have great difficulty comprehending; 'British' refers only to the island of Great Britain, 'Pretannic' refers to Great Britain, Ireland and surrounding Islands excluding the Channel Islands.
Irish is not spoken by a tiny minority either, up to 40% of the population claims to speak it to some degree. The ignorance of Britons is bewildering at times; it is not a neutral term and to believe that it has no geo-political connotations is at best naive and ignorant, at worst arrogant and stupid. To believe that this is an English encyclopedia is just plain bizarre - this is the English LANGUAGE version of an internet Encyclopedia. The English language is not yours either, you do realise that English has been 'bastardised' to a huge extent over the centuries already, don't you? To claim that, 'Islands of the North Atlantic' is laden with political judgements' and 'bastardising' the language is just absurd and merits no further comment. I am sure you are entirely blissful in your ignorance. Iolar Iontach
"British" is derived from the Celtic word "Pretannic" and its variants. To say that the "Pretannic Isles" include Ireland, but the "British Isles" do not, is a gross absurdity, since the two terms are both etymologically and linguistically identical. Only those with a political agenda would refuse to recognise this. TharkunColl 09:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The best that can be said for your position is that the term British Isles is going (or has gone) out of fashion amongst the Irish. It is still in common usage among the much larger population of Great Britain (to mean both Great Britain and Ireland), not to mention English speakers all over the world. You are therefore arguing for a minority dialectical variant. TharkunColl 10:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Can you actually read English? Where did I say that Ireland is part of Great Britain? TharkunColl 12:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The fact that you jumped to such a conclusion indicates a level of sensitivity on your part that is unjustified by what I actually said. TharkunColl 15:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The first result on the first page of the search for 'British Isles' as a phrase on google.ie is for a Celtic jewellry shop in Co. Leitrim, I can find no reference to the 'British Isles' on their site. Only five of the webpages end in .ie and two of those are e-bay. "These Isles" has 100 results on ireland.com (The Irish Times website). I would say that makes it fairly common given the results above were deemed common re: British Isles. Britain and Ireland is far away the most common - over 1,000 results on ireland.com and 60,000 on google.ie, this phraseology is accurate, neutral and inclusive. Iolar Iontach
'Britain & Ireland' is in common parlance when referring to the entire archipeligo. That is the justification being used for 'British Isles' thus it should be adequate for 'Britain & Ireland' and 'these Isles/Islands.' The Channel Islands are only included by convention in the 'British Isles' anyway so the argument that they cannot be included in 'Britain & Ireland' is invalid and PoV. They along with the Isle of Man are constituents of the British-Irish Council. The definition of 'these Isles' in Strand Three of the Agreement is what was used to establish the authority. It thus follows that the proper nouns relating to the adjectives British and Irish and 'these Isles' are applicable, they have the added advantage of being neutral and thus inoffensive. See British-Irish Councilfor further details. Iolar Iontach
As a matter of fact I would discount the Channel Islands as being part of the British Isles, because it is clear that geographically they are much closer to France. Let me give you some hypothetical examples of usage:
The use of farming spread to the British Isles during the fifth millennium BC.
During the early medieval period, the British Isles contained a number of often mutually hostile kingdoms.
The British Isles have only experienced a unified government for little more than a century, and no longer do so.
Two sovereign nations exist within the British Isles, both of which are members of the EU.
In none of these cases can you substitute "Britain and Ireland" without making your sentence sound strained and artificial. TharkunColl 15:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
"Britain and Ireland" is only usually used when referring to the two states that exist within the British Isles, as in (for example): Britain and Ireland are the two European states that have a majority of English speakers. When speaking geographically, as with the examples I listed earlier, "British Isles" is the preferred term. I cannot emphasise this enough, because it appears to be incomprehensible to some. "British Isles" is a geographical term that not only long predated the British state, but was actually what that state derived its name from (not the other way round). Whatever certain Irish people may think, whenever a Briton uses the term he is not making any sort of political statement, and is absolutely not trying to imply that the Irish Republic is, or should be, under UK control. But if your argument is going to descend into blowing raspberries then I'm probably wasting my time in trying to point this out. TharkunColl 17:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I think I have compromised; I am accepting that British Isles is in common parlance, however, it remains inaccurate and have re-added Britain and Ireland (the most neutral alternative) to the article. Iolar Iontach
"Les Isles d'outre-mer" would be a possible replacement. After all, that would take care of the commonality of the Norman heritage and the issue of the Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are of course, as other commentators have added, adjacent to France and referring to them as being part of the British Isles might, dare I say it, indicate not a geographical but political dimension to the use of the term "British Isles".
I'm sure that it would emphatically not be regarded as political and I can't stress that enough. Though it might be a little incomprehensible to those of us who are not au fait with the delicacies of the French tongue.;)
The bit about "Whatever certain Irish people may think, whenever a Briton uses the term he is not making any sort of political statement.." Hmmm. Let's take the proverbial man on the proverbial Clapham omnibus, is he or isn't he (wearing Impulse, we don't know but what about his political motivation)?
Loath as I am to refer to the tv but here goes. A program on the Beeb a year or two ago about the genetic origins of people in Britain. A pure example of "an Ancient Briton" could be found by analysing the people of Castlerea, County Roscommon, Republic of Ireland. Now the Briton in question is becoming ambiguous. Obviously in temporal terms and substantively in other ways he can't be the Briton on the Clapham omnibus. Though genetically, he could be related (and could indeed be an omnibus driver.
There are plenty of examples, if you care to look, where the whole of Ireland is subsumed into the greater whole. For example, "across the country", "here in the South of Ireland" in a Channel 5 weather forecast I saw a few days ago which was bereft of the landmass to the south and east of Britain. I won't mention the addition of County Donegal to Northern Ireland in the BBC News map of drought a couple of days ago.Doh!
A little sidestep I know but (and this is a direct quote from the [UK Parliament]Ireland Act 1949):
"the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly."
Of course, the self-same Act includes: "In this Act “the United Kingdom” includes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man."
So, the terms in use can be quite elastic but the import is fairly (?) obvious. "British Isles" is one of those terms like "British Lions" (bye, bye), "Home Nations" etc. You can go to the following URL to read an excellent example of the prevailing confusion abounding in these islands:
http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamHist/HistHomeLosses.html
"Hungary were not even the first side to beat England at Wembley; Scotland already had done that four times. Nor were they the first side from outside the United Kingdom to beat England at home; the Republic of Ireland did that in 1949. They were, however, the first foreign side to beat England at Wembley, no mean feat."
So if the average Briton is "absolutely not trying to imply that the Irish Republic is, or should be, under UK control" he may think it is British as there is obviously more to Britain than the UK in his/her mind and he/she thinks that Hungary is foreign and the Republic of Ireland isn't.
Notions of "foreigness" don't have to follow modern political boundaries, you know. How about Korea, or Germany until fairly recently? Or even Ireland itself, come to think of it. Do you regard the inhabitants of Northern Ireland as foreign, even the Nationalists? Well you should, if you adhere to your own definition. As far as I'm concerned, England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales form a family of home nations that, through shared history and geographical proximity, cannot be considered foreign to each other. Narrow nationalists may disagree, but that doesn't affect how most people think. And perhaps the British Govt. use "Republic of Ireland" in their statutes so as to avoid confusion with the island as a whole. Don't be so quick to ascribe ignorance when there might be a perfectly good practical reason. TharkunColl 18:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Narrow nationalists may disagree, but that doesn't affect how most people think.
Surely you mean how most British people think? Superdude99 14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not view people from Northern Ireland as foreign, as Articles 2 & 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (not a mere statute) do not view them as such. Ireland is not a home nation - it is not a constituent of the UK thus cannot be considered as one. Ireland is a state, which is internationally recognised - England; Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland are nations/regions that constitute the state of the UK. This is a fundamental difference and has nothing to do with politics - it's constitutional law. Iolar Iontach
If it's okay for a sovereign state (Ireland) to make laws with regard to the non-foreigness of citizens of another sovereign state (the UK - i.e. Northern Ireland), then surely it's okay for the UK to legislate to the effect that Irish citizens are also not to be regarded as foreign? In any case, most of the Irish people I've spoken to - and we have countless thousands in the city where I live - take a similar view to mine as to the familial nature of the relationship between the four nations that inhabit the British Isles. Perhaps it's only the ones that choose to live in England that tend to think that way, but I can only go on personal experience. My views about nationality and foreigness obviously don't correspond precisely to current political borders, but then why should they? Borders are only artificial constructs, and none more so than the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. I don't believe it was right to arbitrarily partition Ireland like that, and I feel that some sort of confederation between the four nations would have been the best thing to do, though I accept that that's probably impossible now. I truly think that with goodwill on all sides, decades of violence and bad feeling could have been avoided. The fact is that for centuries, if not millennia, the people of the British Isles have been bound to each other by ties of geography, commerce, and culture, and there has never really been a time without substantial population movements between them. TharkunColl 18:24, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
People born in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship; in accordance with the Irish Nationality & Citizenship Act, 2004 (with some constraints) - it is not conferred upon them against their will and a substantial proportion of people from Northern Ireland view themselves solely as Irish. It is thus appropriate for the constitutuion to acknowledge this. The citizenry of Ireland (state) does not consider itself as British, nor does its constitution thus it is entirely inappropriate and factually inaccurate for the UK government to consider it as such. A confederation would not have been acceptable to Ireland. Not everyone wants to be British - the Irish have given many hints throughout the centuries that they do not want to be. Ireland is quite a succesful country and has a achieved its successes as a sovereign state. Ireland being considered as a Home Nation is just wrong. Iolar Iontach 18:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't want to get into a political argument here, but I sincerely doubt that the UK government regards citizens of the Republic as British Citizens. The Act to which I referred granted Irish citizens resident in the UK all the rights of British citizenship, without actually being so. As I said before, this was an act of generosity, not some plot to re-take Ireland. My point about confederation was as an alternative to partition, as was proposed at the time, but this was prevented by the First World War and German support for Irish extremists. As I said, I think things have gone too far to heal the wounds now, which is a great pity. TharkunColl 19:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The crux of the issue is the regarding of the two states and peoples as being foreign (or not) to each other. Most people on the larger island do not see an issue with the use of the term "British Isles" as they see "British" as being a supra-national term covering constituent nationalities. It isn't a case of it being "incomprehensible to some" or "certain Irish people". The term is in use partly because of beliefs such as the Irish "are like the Scots or Welsh, not English but not foreign either". The incomprehensibility lies with the inability to see why people who are proximate and speak English wouldn't want to be British or live on a British Isle.
As for "four nations" I suppose you could ignore references to two nations existing in Northern Ireland, as you would have to because that would make five nations not four, or two altogether, the Irish nation and the British nation.
By the way, there already was a confederation, it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (and we didn't want to be in it).It was the federation of the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Ireland, plus the principality of Wales.The UK is a federal state, not something that people care to acknowledge in the UK too often though.(Perhaps because that might seem a little incongruous when complaining about the "federal EU superstate".) It is not governed uniformly by the same laws throughout, nor does it have the same systems of education throughout. (Ignore the differences in banknotes, the ones in Scotland and the North are Monopoly money, not legal tender anywhere.)
I think there may have been a little bit more to partition than the "First World War and German support for Irish extremists". Both Unionism and Republicanism predate the First World War. The proposed secession of Ireland from the Union was an issue that split the British Liberal Party in the nineteenth century and it has has never recovered from it. Though it isn't a topic that most people in Britain would be able to tell you much about, basically because it isn't mentioned much in Britain (a bit like a lot of things that have passed between the two islands).
I refer my learned friend to the "two nations" mentioned earlier. There were and still are people who want to be both Irish and British and those who want to be solely Irish. That is why you can occasionally hear Northern Ireland Unionists referring to themselves as "Irish" when they are referring to themselves as British Irish in the context of a constituent nationality of the UK. While they would object to being called "Irish" if it means solely Irish and not also being British. Though since the late 1960s self-indentification as Irish has declined amongst Protestants due to a further delineation of the political importance of the terms "British" and "Irish", which hasn't been replicated to the same extent in Great Britain. Hence why people from England can cause unintentional offence to some Northern Ireland Protestants by calling them "Irish".
Talking about the quasi-familial relationship between the peoples of these islands doesn't alter the political dimension of the term in use. You could try telling someone on the Shankill Road that they are "Irish" or someone in the Ardoyne that they are "British" to test that; but I wouldn't advise it. Plenty of people in the UK would probably not regard Afro-Caribbeans or Pakistanis as foreigners because of a shared history. I'm sure that the same could be said of folks in Alsace-Lorraine who might not regard Germans as true foreigners but wouldn't tell you that they weren't living in France.
Perhaps, eventually, the term "British Isles" will go the way of "British Lions" or "British Commonwealth".
I'm gonna at least question this merge, on the grounds that the Brit Isles terminology is a useful page. I fear that, though there are clearly benefits to a merge, much of the useful content of the terminolgoy page would be lost in such a process. For now, then, Im against it, but could be won over. Robdurbar 16:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
There is apparently a great deal of ( largely unreferenced) controversy over usage and meaning of toponyms as evidenced by Traditional counties of the British Isles, British Islands, British Isles, British Isles (terminology), Britain and Ireland, Islands of the North Atlantic and Brythonic or Anglo-Celtic Archipelago. Why not merge articles with quasi-identical content, and then provide mutual links to the articles that arguably and evidently do not mean the same thing. // Big Adamsky 18:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that their is merit for a well written British Isles article, but this idea that a whole article is required simply to explain the different terms is confusing, and strange - and pov that we select British Isles for this priviledge. It undermines the basis for good, well researched articles- that are to the point. It sets a precident. Before someone points out the fact that I am Irish, I am not one of the editors that use these talk pages to push an anti-British agenda. Djegan 20:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I started the terminology article because there was a need to give a good quick overview of what's what in the British Isles. I managed to somewhat sort this out for myself, combining bits of info from various articles and then decided I might as well turn the overview into an article. The fact that I needed to do this means there is a need for the overview, especially for people not from the Isles. What counts most is the first overview. As long as that bit is at the top of an obvious page (such as this one) I don't really care too much, although I'd prefer to keep the article. It seems a useful and logical collection of info. Mind you, I'm serious about the overview (as it is now) appearing at the very top. If that doesn't happen, I oppose the merge. DirkvdM 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Another issue is whether a merge would result in more offence - people who disagree with the term might be more comfortable being directed to a page with 'terminology' in the title, rather than straight to the BI page Robdurbar 09:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm unsure about the need to merge these two articles. Don't get me wrong: to increase their utility, each can stand for significant pruning and refocusing (particularly British Isles (terminology)). Ideally, British Isles should be an overview of the archipelago/entity in toto – particularly when dealing with common notions of geography, history, or sociopolitics (with specific notions being dealt with in their respective articles) – while British Isles (terminology) should serve as a concise article clarifying relevant terms and definitions ... essentially retain everything before the table of contents and significantly prune or nix everything below. The historical aspects and chart of constituent states, for instance, might be more appropriate in articles regarding those political entities or in just the British Isles article.
Similarly, I and others recently developed Americas (terminology) – whose title was inspired by the current topic – which is meant to concisely clarify the various terms and entities in the Americas. As well, this was partially borne out of a desire to end incessant edit warring at the America DAB, in which any number of Wikipedians were either disatisfied with the order of entries ( North America/ South America, USA) or wanted to include a plethora of others that detract from the function of the DAB (e.g., the region of Central America). While I'm not necessarily suggesting a similar retrofit here, they may prove helpful in improving articles for these topics about entities across the pond.
And as for offending he or she, this should be minimised if verifiable sources are cited ... few of which appear herein (and something kept in the forefront when developing Americas (terminology)). E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 21:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It is a myth that the term is not being used in Ireland. Goto Google and search for pages only in Ireland. "British Isles" gets 64,000. Anglo Celtic Archipelago only gets 4 (all at wiki Ireland). josh ( talk) 19:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Some one should tell the Irish government that it your not allowed to use it as well [2].
Is this a necessary piece of information in the article? It definitely taints the neutrality of the article. The BNP also use the adjective British to affirm their Britishness, however this is not anywhere in the article. Iolar Iontach 14:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay - the term IONA was first invented in order to appease the IRA, and is currently favoured by the BNP? Hmmmm.... I wonder why people don't like it very much? TharkunColl 23:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This is interesting. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution still covers the whole British Isles, regardless of the political arrangements since 1922. How odd... TharkunColl 23:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> but it is part of the island, and people there consider themselves Irish. As well as having other multiple identities. This republican nationalist imperialism gets taken too far! By the way, are you now arguing that Northern Ireland is part of the British Isles, but Eire isn't? ... dave souza, talk 07:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Just out of interest, and not because its relevent here (since this is an English language encyclopedia), but does anyone know what the Irish Gaelic word for the British Isles is? TharkunColl 16:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This Manx site seems to think that Ireland isn't a part of the British Isles when it says: "The Island’s tremendously varied scenery and architecture disguises itself as almost anywhere in the British Isles or Ireland". This British site doesn't mention Ireland either as being a constituent of them. This page from the BBC also refers to the "British Isles and Ireland" It is quite clear that confusion and ambiguity are rife in the UK and Crown Dependencies about whether Ireland is included in the term. How common is it for Ireland to be actually included in the term in the UK? Iolar Iontach 02:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
From the point of view of a student of glaciation, we always refer to the British Isles Ice Sheet covering the archipalego. Here are more sites that use the term for them both [3], [4]. To take the top ten google.co.uk results for 'British Isles', 3 appear to refer only to the uk (one of which includes Gibraltar and St Helena!!!), 5 to the whole thing and 2 which describe the terms (inclduing this page). Robdurbar 08:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I think it is entirely fair to say that such an ambiguous ans confusing phrase is best avoided. Iolar Iontach 11:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Almost as an aside, it is worth noting that there are many island groups in the world named after their largest/most important island. See Gran Canaria. These are all geographical designations. If language means anything at all, then it means certain things. If we jettison meaning, then we are left with no means of communication at all. TharkunColl 23:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Without wanting to offend, can I just draw you two to the following quote from Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines:
Talk pages are not for general chatter; please keep discussions on talk pages on the topic of how to improve the associated article.
Talk pages are also not strictly a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how different points of view should be included in the article so that the end result is neutral.
Now its easy for discussion to go off topic, but please remember that this is not a page for discussing the benefits/problems of the term. It is to discuss about article improvment. Now unless it is posited that the article does not accurately explain:
Then such talk is just wasting server space. Robdurbar 17:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is certainly true, but I'm not sure if it clarifies more than it obscures. If there's evidence for systematic use of British Isles to mean something other than the headline definition, it would be better to state that directly. The sporadic use of this seems to me to be more characteristic of it being an ad hoc synonym for "the UK", or "some set of islands I haven't clearly defined even in my own mind". Alai 20:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The article says that "outside of Scotland, which is in northern Great Britain and quite mountainous, only four peaks reach above 1 000 m." Four seems wrong — either three or five would be better depending what you consider the cut-off for a separate mountain to be. Carrauntoohill in Ireland and Snowdon and Carnedd Llewelyn in Snowdonia are clearly all separate mountains. After that, it seems appropriate to either include both or neither of Carnedd Dafydd and Garnedd Ugain. ras52 10:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Why 1 000m? - why not? I think its just a round number. Robdurbar 18:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I have read clearly what everyone has had to say on this matter and find nothing to convince me that what apologists for this term have said justifies the use of the term in any context. The term "British Isles" is trebly incorrect; historically incorrect, politically incorrect and geographically incorrect.
Again and again, references from classical sources are cited in support of the term in blatant disregard of the fact that Greek and Roman observers were often ignorant in the extreme and patchy at the very best in their knowledge of the languages and cultures of people living outside the boundaries of their empires or their known world. These sources are quoted almost as irrefutable evidence of the legitimacy of the term. As I have said before, if "British Isles" originates from "Pretannic Isles" and refers to speakers of a P-Celtic language similar to the British language of the P-Celtic peoples that once inhabited large areas of England, Wales and southern Scotland before the invasions of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, I challenge you to provide evidence that all or even a majority of the people of this island (Ireland) were once speakers of a P-Celtic language.
Secondly, it is utterly irrelevant what term was used by cartographers and others before the formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. These people were almost all non-Irish and ignorant to a large degree of the language, history and people of Ireland. Many, no doubt, worked for the reigning monarch of the day, who would clearly have his or her own imperialistic designs on Ireland. Thirdly, the wholescale glossing over of what the vast majority of Irish people TODAY in 2006 think of this term smacks of arrogance. Yes, of course one will find references to "British Isles" in Irish publications and websites but these are are so rare as to be negligible in terms of what term most people in the street actually use and what they think of the term. This is a question of respect for other peoples. Most people in Ireland never ever use the term "British Isles" and find it distasteful and uncomfortable at best. Have Irish people not the right to decide how we should be described or must we just accept dictats from English neo-colonialists? No matter what sort of verbal gymnastics one resorts to in defence of "British Isles", there is no getting away from the simple fact that if Ireland is a "British Isle" then it follows that at the very least in terms of geography, the cities and towns and rivers and lakes and harbours and hills and mountains of Ireland are British also. This is quite simply ludicrous. Ireland is separated from Britain by three stretches of water: the Irish Sea, North Channel and St. George's Channel. These seas exist! They are not figments of the imagination!! They are solid geographic features. No part of Ireland can be labelled "British" in any geographical sense because no part of Ireland is physically linked to the island of Britain. "Britain" means the island of Britain and that alone. The informal and incorrect use of "Britain" for the United Kingdom stems from the fact that the UK is a state artificially created and relatively young in historical terms. There has never been a "UK Nation" or a homogenous "Ukonian people". It largely stems from ignorance of the geographical reality that Northern Ireland is in the UK but not in Britain, being physically separated from Britain by the North Channel.
The use of the adjective "British" to refer to the United Kingdom as a whole is nothing more than a reflection of the artificiality of the UK state, a state composed of three historic nations and a sizable chunk of a fourth. An adjective accurately describing all the peoples of the UK state has never existed and the fact that "Ukonian" has had to be invented for just that purpose shows how artificial in origin the UK is. Is it any wonder that there is so much confusion over terminology when taking about Britain and Ireland?
Alan, Dublin
I'm English, but have Irish (Cork) ancestory. I agree with a lot of what Alan says. Geographicaly N.Ireland is not part of Britain, but a large part of it's population consider themselves as British, similar to most Falkland Islanders and most Gibraltarians. People descended from grandparents born in India etc usually hemselves as 'Asian' when born in Europe because of a sense of ancestory. Is the term British Isles still used because Britain did dominate the all of the islands and also because of the absence of a better alternative. Bevo74 14:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i will however, carry out an online survey but i have my doubts about your sincerity - what sort of numbers would you need as proof that lots of people over here have some reservations about the term ... i mean as an irishman living in ireland it's all so blatantly obvious that it's hard to understand why anyone would want to argue about it. Please tell me not all english people are so ignorant of irish general opinion that they dont see this. [bob]
I would say that most Irish citizens find the term anachronistic and inaccurate rather than offensive. It doesn't offend me, however, it does baffle me that so many of its proponents can be so geo-politically unaware that they can find few if any problems with the term. Referring to Ireland as British under any circumstances is wrong and analogous to referring to Wales and Scotland as constituents of England. Iolar Iontach 16:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
As reguards the offence/dislike issue i would say that as far as i can see the main problem comes not from the term itself but from the continued use and justification of it - i mean it was fine to use in the past but in the current changing political and social climate, referring to anything irish as british can be a bother to ???? irish people - obviously people react differently to this with some laughing it off, some taking offence etc. What i am saying is that is dont see your analogy as that acurate; it is not as quite as offensive as the word nigger but a lot moreso than the term "all black people are good dancers" ( which might even be taken as a compliment ). In truth as far as i can see it is actually an offence (to some at least).
thanks for the tip on the survey - am new to wikipedia - anyway the survey didnt work out - turns out the idea i had was not very reliable. [bob]
This is not so. There are plenty of examples of the name of a people being taken from a pre-existing geogrphical term, even if the boundaries don't match. American is one, British is another. Why aren't you up in arms that the UK has appropriated the originally-Celtic word "British"? I would have a modicum of sympathy with that stance, as I don't particularly like the word anyway (always calling myself English unless the situation rendered it inappropriate). TharkunColl 15:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Americans are called that because they live in a place called America, even though that term has a much wider geographical meaning than the USA.
You are simply wrong to state that "British" never refers to Ireland - it does so in the phrase "British Isles" for example. If some Irish people don't like it, well tough. The vast majority of the population of the British Isles will go on using it anyway. TharkunColl 07:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
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With respect to the author of the first three paragraphs as of writing, I believe that the introduction to this article is in need of avoiding weasel words! To me, they read as if the author is an Irishman displeased with how ubiquitous the term "British Isles" is, and I get the impression that he doesn't want anyone to hear the term spoken without knowing that it's not so popular in the Republic. Highlights are mine:
The introduction spends more time telling us that the name is controversial to some, than it does telling us what it means! The name "traditionally given" implies that the name is archaic as opposed to official and current. We see twice "is understood in Britain", as if to say, "Only Britain even uses this term at all, of course - the rest of us don't!"
As I had always understood it, British Isles was the name of the north-western islands in Europe in an entirely geographical context as "The largest island on which Britain is situated, and the other islands around it". Admittedly it's not so flattering to proud Irishmen who don't like to play geographical second-string to a country who had conquered them less than a century ago, but it's a geographical term all the same and it's one which is far too set-in to see a change any time soon.
Surely it only requires one line to note that the term is disliked by some Irish people who feel it suggests British ownership, and then later expand on this in its own section? -- Jonathan Drain 01:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
"To me, they read as if the author is an Irishman displeased with how ubiquitous the term "British Isles" is, and I get the impression that he doesn't want anyone to hear the term spoken without knowing that it's not so popular in the Republic"
Oh, that's really coming from someone who wants a NPoV?
Monucg 20:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The term is actually common in the UK. It is used politically by a lot of people in the UK and some in the Republic(of Ireland). It's objected to by most of us in the Republic as it does imply that we are British (and let's face it, we have dropped plenty of hints over the last few hundred years that we didn't and don't want to be British).
It is the case that people in Britain will actually refer to the Republic as being British anyway without even mentioning the British Isles. For example, the "British [sic] runner" Eamonn Coughlan, the "British [sic] actress" Brenda Fricker. (There are numerous examples in the media and on the Web. I saw U2 being referred to as "the British band" on a BBC webpage recently.Though we do also have a UK-born Head of State. Interestingly, she isn't referred to as being British)
Part of the problem is that we (most of us Hibernians) have been reluctant to cut the umbilical cord fully. We didn't formally become the Republic until 01/01/49. Until then, the "King of England", actually the King of the UK, was formally our Head of State. Until recently more of us watched UK television stations than Irish ones. When we talk about "going abroad" for our holidays we mean outside of these terminologically disputed islands. We don't refer to the British as foreigners either (which they are) and they don't refer to us as foreigners either for the most part. Until recently you didn't need a passport to move within the "Common Travel Area". Plus, the bulk of us speak English (except in Connemara and Bradford).
If you go on holiday to Continental Europe you may find, as I did, that you will be talking to British natives who will talk to you about "the foreigners". I pointed out that we were actually foreigners to each other (that is, British to Irish), to stunned looks. If you say to people from Britain that you object to the term "British Isles" they will often be surprised but for a variety of reasons. For one, some genuinely can't see why it causes offence, others can't see why anyone (on the planet) wouldn't want to be British if they had the chance and a lot see it as the natural order of things (the BBC has a lot to answer for).
Another problem is that (as some commentators have alluded to) academics will publish tomes that seem to be a bit confused on the subject. It's a little disconcerting to read tomes by British historians that seem to be well written until you come across a line/sentence/paragraph relating to Ireland that belongs in the realm of the counterfactual or anachronistic. You then begin to wonder if the rest of the exegesis is flawed also. I must finish now as there is another can of lager in the fridge calling out to me. Regards, Damian.
clearly there IS a term 'british isles' but the truth about it is that it's used in britian but generally irish people dont like it. the fact of the matter is; the term was invented by british people and is used by british people - irish people rarely use it and most find it amusing that the british people who use it are so inward looking that they continue to use it long after it's use became outdated. The term is clearly politicaly incorect, and given that irish people dont like it, it's hardly prudent to have an article on it without making this matter clear - doing otherwise would be to supress the truth. someone mentioned that this article should be about geography and not about politics - well sorry to say but, geography is based on politics - you cant say that kashmir is part of india without mentioning that it's disputed by pakistan now can you. Bob
The term British Isles dates back to Roman times at least. It was not invented by British people as it predated the foundation of the British state by many, many centuries. Indeed, the British state chose the adjective "British" to describe itself precisely because it was a pre-existing and long-established geographical term. So "most" Irish people find it amusing that we still use the term British Isles, do they? Well I find it amusing that the Irish can get so worked up over a basic misunderstanding, namely that the "British" in British Isles refers to the British state - which it doesn't. If the Irish want to get annoyed over something, then they ought to complain that the British state has stolen the word "British" for its own use. TharkunColl 07:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm Irish but I have done my schooling in England and Ireland. I can tell you now that in Ireland "British Isles" generally does not refer to Ireland, but in England it does. Now I know there are instances in Ireland where this is incorrect, however the general feeling is correctly detailed within this wiki article and NPOV stands. - Hobbes.ie
The only legal term recognised by both the UK and Irish governments when referring to the Archipeligo is 'these Islands.' Strand Three, The Agreement, 10/04/1998. There are many precedents for geographical terms (e.g. Benelux, Central Europe, North America etc.) being legally and politically recognised - the 'British Isles' is not one of them. The term is not used in legislation in either jurisdiction.
The term 'British' Isles is not purely geographic no matter how hard one may attempt to protest that it is - it has geo-political implications. Ireland is NOT a British Isle, however, it is a part of the same archipeligo as Great Britain. The term 'British' Isles is unacceptable when referring to Ireland under any circumstances; whether they be purely geographic, political, legal etc.
One cannot escape the English language definition of British i.e. of or relating to the island of Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language. Under this basic definition how can Ireland be deemed a British Isle? It is a complete non sequitur. Ireland is not British thus is not a part of the 'British' Isles. Ireland's identity is Irish and European - it certainly is not British. Iolar Iontach
From reading the statutes which you have provided it is clear that Ireland is no longer included in the term. The majority of the statutes which you have are amendments which support my previous claim that the 'British' Isles is not a legal term in either jurisdiction. It was in the UK but is not any longer. British Isles has been substituted for British Islands and Republic Of Ireland (sic) or the United Kingdom, Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and Republic of Ireland (sic). The Education (Listed Bodies) Order, 1997 refers to a theological college known as British Isles Nazarene College. The name of a 3rd level institution does not qualify it as a legal term.
I might draw your attention to the fact that the legislation you have provided gets the name of Ireland wrong - the name of Ireland is quite simply Ireland (Art 4, Bunreacht na hÉireann, 1937). The Republic of Ireland is only a description of the type of government in place in Ireland (s2 Republic of Ireland Act, 1948). If the UK government has difficulty understanding what the name of one of its closest European neighbours is it isn't any wonder that its citizenry has difficulty comprehending the fact that Ireland is NOT a British Isle?
'These Isles' is the only legal term used in BOTH jurisdictions. I agree that it is rather vague but it is more acceptable than the misnomer the 'British' Isles. I refer you again to the definition of British in the de facto official language of the United Kingdom. (As a lawyer I am aware that the UK does not actually have an official language). It is a non sequitur to refer to Ireland as a 'British' Isle. If your own language negates your views why do you insist upon them? Why do you insist upon including Ireland in an anachronistic term? If the consensus in Ireland (I include the UK region of Northern Ireland in this) is that it is not a 'British' Isle, why must you insist upon referring to it as such? One could consider it as tantamount to an attack on Irish sovereignty - I do not but I find it quite humorous that the British can be so ill-informed and arrogant.
Also, Google is an excellent tool if used correctly. One should actually read its results instead of posting a link at a cursory glance. Iolar Iontach
'These Isles' is extremely common in Irish media and Ireland in general; see what I have just googled. It gets more hits in google.ie than British Isles. To claim that 'British Isles' is the only commonly used term for the archipeligo is extremely anglocentric. The term has been replaced in all UK legislation (in which it was used) to my knowledge. Nowhere have I said that the article should be removed or renamed, however, problems with usage should be more prominent in the article. I trust we are all agreed that a significant proportion of citizens in the archipeligo have difficulty with the term? Same should receive more prominence; perhaps in an article about 'these Isles.' When the name for the archipeligo is formally changed will you have difficulty accepting that? The non sequitur, which I point out is not a side issue, it relates to the English language definition of the adjective in question. Your own language negates your claims. Can you not recognise that referring to Ireland as a British Isle is clearly absurd? Also just because a term is in 'common' parlance does not make it correct. 'These Isles' is legally defined in Strand Three p2 of the Agreement, this definition was used in the establishment of the British-Irish Council (N.B. it is NOT the British Isles Council) and it is in currency in Ireland. It is vague but it merits an article. I would argue that 'Britain and Ireland' is more common than the 'British Isles' when referring to entire archipeligo. The Manx and Channel Islanders are British Citizens (Interpretation Act, 1978 & British Nationality Act, 1981) after all thus it is accurate, inclusive and neutral. Iolar Iontach
The use of 'British' Isles in a language indigenous (English) to same is not classical it is relatively recent c.1600. There is no equivalent term in Irish. If we are using classical sources to justify the name, why not refer to Ireland as Hibernia, France as Gaul and the sun revolving around the earth? Utter nonsense. We have increased our knowledge since Greco-Roman times. Iolar Iontach
The First Official Language of Ireland is Irish (Art 8 s1, Bunreacht na hÉireann) and just to say that it had been used in English does not mean it is correct. I never accepted that it is correct just pointed out that the term was never used in the supposed area until c1600. It is not a purely geographic term, it is a misnomer that has political implications. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Iolar Iontach
Your argument is dead in the water. I'm not an Irish nationalist yet I object to the term - I am entirely satisfied (actually happy) for Northern Ireland's constitutional status as an integral part of the UK to remain in perpetuity. It's non-usage in Ireland is certainly not determined by political stance, it is determined by the fact that Ireland is not British. This is due to our understanding of the English Language. The Pretannic Isles is not the same as 'British' Isles which you have great difficulty comprehending; 'British' refers only to the island of Great Britain, 'Pretannic' refers to Great Britain, Ireland and surrounding Islands excluding the Channel Islands.
Irish is not spoken by a tiny minority either, up to 40% of the population claims to speak it to some degree. The ignorance of Britons is bewildering at times; it is not a neutral term and to believe that it has no geo-political connotations is at best naive and ignorant, at worst arrogant and stupid. To believe that this is an English encyclopedia is just plain bizarre - this is the English LANGUAGE version of an internet Encyclopedia. The English language is not yours either, you do realise that English has been 'bastardised' to a huge extent over the centuries already, don't you? To claim that, 'Islands of the North Atlantic' is laden with political judgements' and 'bastardising' the language is just absurd and merits no further comment. I am sure you are entirely blissful in your ignorance. Iolar Iontach
"British" is derived from the Celtic word "Pretannic" and its variants. To say that the "Pretannic Isles" include Ireland, but the "British Isles" do not, is a gross absurdity, since the two terms are both etymologically and linguistically identical. Only those with a political agenda would refuse to recognise this. TharkunColl 09:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The best that can be said for your position is that the term British Isles is going (or has gone) out of fashion amongst the Irish. It is still in common usage among the much larger population of Great Britain (to mean both Great Britain and Ireland), not to mention English speakers all over the world. You are therefore arguing for a minority dialectical variant. TharkunColl 10:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Can you actually read English? Where did I say that Ireland is part of Great Britain? TharkunColl 12:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The fact that you jumped to such a conclusion indicates a level of sensitivity on your part that is unjustified by what I actually said. TharkunColl 15:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
The first result on the first page of the search for 'British Isles' as a phrase on google.ie is for a Celtic jewellry shop in Co. Leitrim, I can find no reference to the 'British Isles' on their site. Only five of the webpages end in .ie and two of those are e-bay. "These Isles" has 100 results on ireland.com (The Irish Times website). I would say that makes it fairly common given the results above were deemed common re: British Isles. Britain and Ireland is far away the most common - over 1,000 results on ireland.com and 60,000 on google.ie, this phraseology is accurate, neutral and inclusive. Iolar Iontach
'Britain & Ireland' is in common parlance when referring to the entire archipeligo. That is the justification being used for 'British Isles' thus it should be adequate for 'Britain & Ireland' and 'these Isles/Islands.' The Channel Islands are only included by convention in the 'British Isles' anyway so the argument that they cannot be included in 'Britain & Ireland' is invalid and PoV. They along with the Isle of Man are constituents of the British-Irish Council. The definition of 'these Isles' in Strand Three of the Agreement is what was used to establish the authority. It thus follows that the proper nouns relating to the adjectives British and Irish and 'these Isles' are applicable, they have the added advantage of being neutral and thus inoffensive. See British-Irish Councilfor further details. Iolar Iontach
As a matter of fact I would discount the Channel Islands as being part of the British Isles, because it is clear that geographically they are much closer to France. Let me give you some hypothetical examples of usage:
The use of farming spread to the British Isles during the fifth millennium BC.
During the early medieval period, the British Isles contained a number of often mutually hostile kingdoms.
The British Isles have only experienced a unified government for little more than a century, and no longer do so.
Two sovereign nations exist within the British Isles, both of which are members of the EU.
In none of these cases can you substitute "Britain and Ireland" without making your sentence sound strained and artificial. TharkunColl 15:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
"Britain and Ireland" is only usually used when referring to the two states that exist within the British Isles, as in (for example): Britain and Ireland are the two European states that have a majority of English speakers. When speaking geographically, as with the examples I listed earlier, "British Isles" is the preferred term. I cannot emphasise this enough, because it appears to be incomprehensible to some. "British Isles" is a geographical term that not only long predated the British state, but was actually what that state derived its name from (not the other way round). Whatever certain Irish people may think, whenever a Briton uses the term he is not making any sort of political statement, and is absolutely not trying to imply that the Irish Republic is, or should be, under UK control. But if your argument is going to descend into blowing raspberries then I'm probably wasting my time in trying to point this out. TharkunColl 17:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I think I have compromised; I am accepting that British Isles is in common parlance, however, it remains inaccurate and have re-added Britain and Ireland (the most neutral alternative) to the article. Iolar Iontach
"Les Isles d'outre-mer" would be a possible replacement. After all, that would take care of the commonality of the Norman heritage and the issue of the Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are of course, as other commentators have added, adjacent to France and referring to them as being part of the British Isles might, dare I say it, indicate not a geographical but political dimension to the use of the term "British Isles".
I'm sure that it would emphatically not be regarded as political and I can't stress that enough. Though it might be a little incomprehensible to those of us who are not au fait with the delicacies of the French tongue.;)
The bit about "Whatever certain Irish people may think, whenever a Briton uses the term he is not making any sort of political statement.." Hmmm. Let's take the proverbial man on the proverbial Clapham omnibus, is he or isn't he (wearing Impulse, we don't know but what about his political motivation)?
Loath as I am to refer to the tv but here goes. A program on the Beeb a year or two ago about the genetic origins of people in Britain. A pure example of "an Ancient Briton" could be found by analysing the people of Castlerea, County Roscommon, Republic of Ireland. Now the Briton in question is becoming ambiguous. Obviously in temporal terms and substantively in other ways he can't be the Briton on the Clapham omnibus. Though genetically, he could be related (and could indeed be an omnibus driver.
There are plenty of examples, if you care to look, where the whole of Ireland is subsumed into the greater whole. For example, "across the country", "here in the South of Ireland" in a Channel 5 weather forecast I saw a few days ago which was bereft of the landmass to the south and east of Britain. I won't mention the addition of County Donegal to Northern Ireland in the BBC News map of drought a couple of days ago.Doh!
A little sidestep I know but (and this is a direct quote from the [UK Parliament]Ireland Act 1949):
"the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom or in any colony, protectorate or United Kingdom trust territory, whether by virtue of a rule of law or of an Act of Parliament or any other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, and references in any Act of Parliament, other enactment or instrument whatsoever, whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, to foreigners, aliens, foreign countries, and foreign or foreign-built ships or aircraft shall be construed accordingly."
Of course, the self-same Act includes: "In this Act “the United Kingdom” includes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man."
So, the terms in use can be quite elastic but the import is fairly (?) obvious. "British Isles" is one of those terms like "British Lions" (bye, bye), "Home Nations" etc. You can go to the following URL to read an excellent example of the prevailing confusion abounding in these islands:
http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamHist/HistHomeLosses.html
"Hungary were not even the first side to beat England at Wembley; Scotland already had done that four times. Nor were they the first side from outside the United Kingdom to beat England at home; the Republic of Ireland did that in 1949. They were, however, the first foreign side to beat England at Wembley, no mean feat."
So if the average Briton is "absolutely not trying to imply that the Irish Republic is, or should be, under UK control" he may think it is British as there is obviously more to Britain than the UK in his/her mind and he/she thinks that Hungary is foreign and the Republic of Ireland isn't.
Notions of "foreigness" don't have to follow modern political boundaries, you know. How about Korea, or Germany until fairly recently? Or even Ireland itself, come to think of it. Do you regard the inhabitants of Northern Ireland as foreign, even the Nationalists? Well you should, if you adhere to your own definition. As far as I'm concerned, England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales form a family of home nations that, through shared history and geographical proximity, cannot be considered foreign to each other. Narrow nationalists may disagree, but that doesn't affect how most people think. And perhaps the British Govt. use "Republic of Ireland" in their statutes so as to avoid confusion with the island as a whole. Don't be so quick to ascribe ignorance when there might be a perfectly good practical reason. TharkunColl 18:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Narrow nationalists may disagree, but that doesn't affect how most people think.
Surely you mean how most British people think? Superdude99 14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not view people from Northern Ireland as foreign, as Articles 2 & 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann (not a mere statute) do not view them as such. Ireland is not a home nation - it is not a constituent of the UK thus cannot be considered as one. Ireland is a state, which is internationally recognised - England; Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland are nations/regions that constitute the state of the UK. This is a fundamental difference and has nothing to do with politics - it's constitutional law. Iolar Iontach
If it's okay for a sovereign state (Ireland) to make laws with regard to the non-foreigness of citizens of another sovereign state (the UK - i.e. Northern Ireland), then surely it's okay for the UK to legislate to the effect that Irish citizens are also not to be regarded as foreign? In any case, most of the Irish people I've spoken to - and we have countless thousands in the city where I live - take a similar view to mine as to the familial nature of the relationship between the four nations that inhabit the British Isles. Perhaps it's only the ones that choose to live in England that tend to think that way, but I can only go on personal experience. My views about nationality and foreigness obviously don't correspond precisely to current political borders, but then why should they? Borders are only artificial constructs, and none more so than the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. I don't believe it was right to arbitrarily partition Ireland like that, and I feel that some sort of confederation between the four nations would have been the best thing to do, though I accept that that's probably impossible now. I truly think that with goodwill on all sides, decades of violence and bad feeling could have been avoided. The fact is that for centuries, if not millennia, the people of the British Isles have been bound to each other by ties of geography, commerce, and culture, and there has never really been a time without substantial population movements between them. TharkunColl 18:24, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
People born in Northern Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship; in accordance with the Irish Nationality & Citizenship Act, 2004 (with some constraints) - it is not conferred upon them against their will and a substantial proportion of people from Northern Ireland view themselves solely as Irish. It is thus appropriate for the constitutuion to acknowledge this. The citizenry of Ireland (state) does not consider itself as British, nor does its constitution thus it is entirely inappropriate and factually inaccurate for the UK government to consider it as such. A confederation would not have been acceptable to Ireland. Not everyone wants to be British - the Irish have given many hints throughout the centuries that they do not want to be. Ireland is quite a succesful country and has a achieved its successes as a sovereign state. Ireland being considered as a Home Nation is just wrong. Iolar Iontach 18:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't want to get into a political argument here, but I sincerely doubt that the UK government regards citizens of the Republic as British Citizens. The Act to which I referred granted Irish citizens resident in the UK all the rights of British citizenship, without actually being so. As I said before, this was an act of generosity, not some plot to re-take Ireland. My point about confederation was as an alternative to partition, as was proposed at the time, but this was prevented by the First World War and German support for Irish extremists. As I said, I think things have gone too far to heal the wounds now, which is a great pity. TharkunColl 19:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The crux of the issue is the regarding of the two states and peoples as being foreign (or not) to each other. Most people on the larger island do not see an issue with the use of the term "British Isles" as they see "British" as being a supra-national term covering constituent nationalities. It isn't a case of it being "incomprehensible to some" or "certain Irish people". The term is in use partly because of beliefs such as the Irish "are like the Scots or Welsh, not English but not foreign either". The incomprehensibility lies with the inability to see why people who are proximate and speak English wouldn't want to be British or live on a British Isle.
As for "four nations" I suppose you could ignore references to two nations existing in Northern Ireland, as you would have to because that would make five nations not four, or two altogether, the Irish nation and the British nation.
By the way, there already was a confederation, it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (and we didn't want to be in it).It was the federation of the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Ireland, plus the principality of Wales.The UK is a federal state, not something that people care to acknowledge in the UK too often though.(Perhaps because that might seem a little incongruous when complaining about the "federal EU superstate".) It is not governed uniformly by the same laws throughout, nor does it have the same systems of education throughout. (Ignore the differences in banknotes, the ones in Scotland and the North are Monopoly money, not legal tender anywhere.)
I think there may have been a little bit more to partition than the "First World War and German support for Irish extremists". Both Unionism and Republicanism predate the First World War. The proposed secession of Ireland from the Union was an issue that split the British Liberal Party in the nineteenth century and it has has never recovered from it. Though it isn't a topic that most people in Britain would be able to tell you much about, basically because it isn't mentioned much in Britain (a bit like a lot of things that have passed between the two islands).
I refer my learned friend to the "two nations" mentioned earlier. There were and still are people who want to be both Irish and British and those who want to be solely Irish. That is why you can occasionally hear Northern Ireland Unionists referring to themselves as "Irish" when they are referring to themselves as British Irish in the context of a constituent nationality of the UK. While they would object to being called "Irish" if it means solely Irish and not also being British. Though since the late 1960s self-indentification as Irish has declined amongst Protestants due to a further delineation of the political importance of the terms "British" and "Irish", which hasn't been replicated to the same extent in Great Britain. Hence why people from England can cause unintentional offence to some Northern Ireland Protestants by calling them "Irish".
Talking about the quasi-familial relationship between the peoples of these islands doesn't alter the political dimension of the term in use. You could try telling someone on the Shankill Road that they are "Irish" or someone in the Ardoyne that they are "British" to test that; but I wouldn't advise it. Plenty of people in the UK would probably not regard Afro-Caribbeans or Pakistanis as foreigners because of a shared history. I'm sure that the same could be said of folks in Alsace-Lorraine who might not regard Germans as true foreigners but wouldn't tell you that they weren't living in France.
Perhaps, eventually, the term "British Isles" will go the way of "British Lions" or "British Commonwealth".
I'm gonna at least question this merge, on the grounds that the Brit Isles terminology is a useful page. I fear that, though there are clearly benefits to a merge, much of the useful content of the terminolgoy page would be lost in such a process. For now, then, Im against it, but could be won over. Robdurbar 16:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
There is apparently a great deal of ( largely unreferenced) controversy over usage and meaning of toponyms as evidenced by Traditional counties of the British Isles, British Islands, British Isles, British Isles (terminology), Britain and Ireland, Islands of the North Atlantic and Brythonic or Anglo-Celtic Archipelago. Why not merge articles with quasi-identical content, and then provide mutual links to the articles that arguably and evidently do not mean the same thing. // Big Adamsky 18:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that their is merit for a well written British Isles article, but this idea that a whole article is required simply to explain the different terms is confusing, and strange - and pov that we select British Isles for this priviledge. It undermines the basis for good, well researched articles- that are to the point. It sets a precident. Before someone points out the fact that I am Irish, I am not one of the editors that use these talk pages to push an anti-British agenda. Djegan 20:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I started the terminology article because there was a need to give a good quick overview of what's what in the British Isles. I managed to somewhat sort this out for myself, combining bits of info from various articles and then decided I might as well turn the overview into an article. The fact that I needed to do this means there is a need for the overview, especially for people not from the Isles. What counts most is the first overview. As long as that bit is at the top of an obvious page (such as this one) I don't really care too much, although I'd prefer to keep the article. It seems a useful and logical collection of info. Mind you, I'm serious about the overview (as it is now) appearing at the very top. If that doesn't happen, I oppose the merge. DirkvdM 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Another issue is whether a merge would result in more offence - people who disagree with the term might be more comfortable being directed to a page with 'terminology' in the title, rather than straight to the BI page Robdurbar 09:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm unsure about the need to merge these two articles. Don't get me wrong: to increase their utility, each can stand for significant pruning and refocusing (particularly British Isles (terminology)). Ideally, British Isles should be an overview of the archipelago/entity in toto – particularly when dealing with common notions of geography, history, or sociopolitics (with specific notions being dealt with in their respective articles) – while British Isles (terminology) should serve as a concise article clarifying relevant terms and definitions ... essentially retain everything before the table of contents and significantly prune or nix everything below. The historical aspects and chart of constituent states, for instance, might be more appropriate in articles regarding those political entities or in just the British Isles article.
Similarly, I and others recently developed Americas (terminology) – whose title was inspired by the current topic – which is meant to concisely clarify the various terms and entities in the Americas. As well, this was partially borne out of a desire to end incessant edit warring at the America DAB, in which any number of Wikipedians were either disatisfied with the order of entries ( North America/ South America, USA) or wanted to include a plethora of others that detract from the function of the DAB (e.g., the region of Central America). While I'm not necessarily suggesting a similar retrofit here, they may prove helpful in improving articles for these topics about entities across the pond.
And as for offending he or she, this should be minimised if verifiable sources are cited ... few of which appear herein (and something kept in the forefront when developing Americas (terminology)). E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 21:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It is a myth that the term is not being used in Ireland. Goto Google and search for pages only in Ireland. "British Isles" gets 64,000. Anglo Celtic Archipelago only gets 4 (all at wiki Ireland). josh ( talk) 19:03, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Some one should tell the Irish government that it your not allowed to use it as well [2].
Is this a necessary piece of information in the article? It definitely taints the neutrality of the article. The BNP also use the adjective British to affirm their Britishness, however this is not anywhere in the article. Iolar Iontach 14:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay - the term IONA was first invented in order to appease the IRA, and is currently favoured by the BNP? Hmmmm.... I wonder why people don't like it very much? TharkunColl 23:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This is interesting. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution still covers the whole British Isles, regardless of the political arrangements since 1922. How odd... TharkunColl 23:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> but it is part of the island, and people there consider themselves Irish. As well as having other multiple identities. This republican nationalist imperialism gets taken too far! By the way, are you now arguing that Northern Ireland is part of the British Isles, but Eire isn't? ... dave souza, talk 07:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Just out of interest, and not because its relevent here (since this is an English language encyclopedia), but does anyone know what the Irish Gaelic word for the British Isles is? TharkunColl 16:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This Manx site seems to think that Ireland isn't a part of the British Isles when it says: "The Island’s tremendously varied scenery and architecture disguises itself as almost anywhere in the British Isles or Ireland". This British site doesn't mention Ireland either as being a constituent of them. This page from the BBC also refers to the "British Isles and Ireland" It is quite clear that confusion and ambiguity are rife in the UK and Crown Dependencies about whether Ireland is included in the term. How common is it for Ireland to be actually included in the term in the UK? Iolar Iontach 02:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
From the point of view of a student of glaciation, we always refer to the British Isles Ice Sheet covering the archipalego. Here are more sites that use the term for them both [3], [4]. To take the top ten google.co.uk results for 'British Isles', 3 appear to refer only to the uk (one of which includes Gibraltar and St Helena!!!), 5 to the whole thing and 2 which describe the terms (inclduing this page). Robdurbar 08:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I think it is entirely fair to say that such an ambiguous ans confusing phrase is best avoided. Iolar Iontach 11:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Almost as an aside, it is worth noting that there are many island groups in the world named after their largest/most important island. See Gran Canaria. These are all geographical designations. If language means anything at all, then it means certain things. If we jettison meaning, then we are left with no means of communication at all. TharkunColl 23:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Without wanting to offend, can I just draw you two to the following quote from Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines:
Talk pages are not for general chatter; please keep discussions on talk pages on the topic of how to improve the associated article.
Talk pages are also not strictly a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how different points of view should be included in the article so that the end result is neutral.
Now its easy for discussion to go off topic, but please remember that this is not a page for discussing the benefits/problems of the term. It is to discuss about article improvment. Now unless it is posited that the article does not accurately explain:
Then such talk is just wasting server space. Robdurbar 17:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is certainly true, but I'm not sure if it clarifies more than it obscures. If there's evidence for systematic use of British Isles to mean something other than the headline definition, it would be better to state that directly. The sporadic use of this seems to me to be more characteristic of it being an ad hoc synonym for "the UK", or "some set of islands I haven't clearly defined even in my own mind". Alai 20:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The article says that "outside of Scotland, which is in northern Great Britain and quite mountainous, only four peaks reach above 1 000 m." Four seems wrong — either three or five would be better depending what you consider the cut-off for a separate mountain to be. Carrauntoohill in Ireland and Snowdon and Carnedd Llewelyn in Snowdonia are clearly all separate mountains. After that, it seems appropriate to either include both or neither of Carnedd Dafydd and Garnedd Ugain. ras52 10:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Why 1 000m? - why not? I think its just a round number. Robdurbar 18:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I have read clearly what everyone has had to say on this matter and find nothing to convince me that what apologists for this term have said justifies the use of the term in any context. The term "British Isles" is trebly incorrect; historically incorrect, politically incorrect and geographically incorrect.
Again and again, references from classical sources are cited in support of the term in blatant disregard of the fact that Greek and Roman observers were often ignorant in the extreme and patchy at the very best in their knowledge of the languages and cultures of people living outside the boundaries of their empires or their known world. These sources are quoted almost as irrefutable evidence of the legitimacy of the term. As I have said before, if "British Isles" originates from "Pretannic Isles" and refers to speakers of a P-Celtic language similar to the British language of the P-Celtic peoples that once inhabited large areas of England, Wales and southern Scotland before the invasions of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, I challenge you to provide evidence that all or even a majority of the people of this island (Ireland) were once speakers of a P-Celtic language.
Secondly, it is utterly irrelevant what term was used by cartographers and others before the formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. These people were almost all non-Irish and ignorant to a large degree of the language, history and people of Ireland. Many, no doubt, worked for the reigning monarch of the day, who would clearly have his or her own imperialistic designs on Ireland. Thirdly, the wholescale glossing over of what the vast majority of Irish people TODAY in 2006 think of this term smacks of arrogance. Yes, of course one will find references to "British Isles" in Irish publications and websites but these are are so rare as to be negligible in terms of what term most people in the street actually use and what they think of the term. This is a question of respect for other peoples. Most people in Ireland never ever use the term "British Isles" and find it distasteful and uncomfortable at best. Have Irish people not the right to decide how we should be described or must we just accept dictats from English neo-colonialists? No matter what sort of verbal gymnastics one resorts to in defence of "British Isles", there is no getting away from the simple fact that if Ireland is a "British Isle" then it follows that at the very least in terms of geography, the cities and towns and rivers and lakes and harbours and hills and mountains of Ireland are British also. This is quite simply ludicrous. Ireland is separated from Britain by three stretches of water: the Irish Sea, North Channel and St. George's Channel. These seas exist! They are not figments of the imagination!! They are solid geographic features. No part of Ireland can be labelled "British" in any geographical sense because no part of Ireland is physically linked to the island of Britain. "Britain" means the island of Britain and that alone. The informal and incorrect use of "Britain" for the United Kingdom stems from the fact that the UK is a state artificially created and relatively young in historical terms. There has never been a "UK Nation" or a homogenous "Ukonian people". It largely stems from ignorance of the geographical reality that Northern Ireland is in the UK but not in Britain, being physically separated from Britain by the North Channel.
The use of the adjective "British" to refer to the United Kingdom as a whole is nothing more than a reflection of the artificiality of the UK state, a state composed of three historic nations and a sizable chunk of a fourth. An adjective accurately describing all the peoples of the UK state has never existed and the fact that "Ukonian" has had to be invented for just that purpose shows how artificial in origin the UK is. Is it any wonder that there is so much confusion over terminology when taking about Britain and Ireland?
Alan, Dublin
I'm English, but have Irish (Cork) ancestory. I agree with a lot of what Alan says. Geographicaly N.Ireland is not part of Britain, but a large part of it's population consider themselves as British, similar to most Falkland Islanders and most Gibraltarians. People descended from grandparents born in India etc usually hemselves as 'Asian' when born in Europe because of a sense of ancestory. Is the term British Isles still used because Britain did dominate the all of the islands and also because of the absence of a better alternative. Bevo74 14:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i will however, carry out an online survey but i have my doubts about your sincerity - what sort of numbers would you need as proof that lots of people over here have some reservations about the term ... i mean as an irishman living in ireland it's all so blatantly obvious that it's hard to understand why anyone would want to argue about it. Please tell me not all english people are so ignorant of irish general opinion that they dont see this. [bob]
I would say that most Irish citizens find the term anachronistic and inaccurate rather than offensive. It doesn't offend me, however, it does baffle me that so many of its proponents can be so geo-politically unaware that they can find few if any problems with the term. Referring to Ireland as British under any circumstances is wrong and analogous to referring to Wales and Scotland as constituents of England. Iolar Iontach 16:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
As reguards the offence/dislike issue i would say that as far as i can see the main problem comes not from the term itself but from the continued use and justification of it - i mean it was fine to use in the past but in the current changing political and social climate, referring to anything irish as british can be a bother to ???? irish people - obviously people react differently to this with some laughing it off, some taking offence etc. What i am saying is that is dont see your analogy as that acurate; it is not as quite as offensive as the word nigger but a lot moreso than the term "all black people are good dancers" ( which might even be taken as a compliment ). In truth as far as i can see it is actually an offence (to some at least).
thanks for the tip on the survey - am new to wikipedia - anyway the survey didnt work out - turns out the idea i had was not very reliable. [bob]
This is not so. There are plenty of examples of the name of a people being taken from a pre-existing geogrphical term, even if the boundaries don't match. American is one, British is another. Why aren't you up in arms that the UK has appropriated the originally-Celtic word "British"? I would have a modicum of sympathy with that stance, as I don't particularly like the word anyway (always calling myself English unless the situation rendered it inappropriate). TharkunColl 15:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Americans are called that because they live in a place called America, even though that term has a much wider geographical meaning than the USA.
You are simply wrong to state that "British" never refers to Ireland - it does so in the phrase "British Isles" for example. If some Irish people don't like it, well tough. The vast majority of the population of the British Isles will go on using it anyway. TharkunColl 07:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Talk pages are not for general chatter; please keep discussions on talk pages on the topic of how to improve the associated article.
Talk pages are also not strictly a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how different points of view should be included in the article so that the end result is neutral.