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I removed this paragraph for the second time [1]. Perhaps I should have raised it here first rather than removing it, but anyway, I did what I did. There are a multitude of "good" and "bad" things that resulted from British colonial rule, with the definition of "good" and "bad" depending on who you ask. Of course, noone would suggest a famine was good, but why single this "bad thing" out, and in particular, this single interpretation of its causes? In Imperialism & Orientalism by Barbara Harlow & Mia Carter [2] the various explanations by "historians, economists, administrators and statesmen" are discussed, one of which is the effect of colonial policies, but others attribute blame to the actions of Indians themselves or Mother Nature. Who is correct? I don't know, but this article is not the place for that debate. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
⬅`Avoiding the quagmire is to take a political position on that quagmire. The whole article is written from a modern perspective, in so far as it quotes modern authors. We are not taking about minor matters, to add one more: herding aboriginals over a cliff in Tasmania, not acknowledging them as human until 1967, one of the longest periods of sustained genocide in the history of the human race). When I was at school we were taught the myths of the British Empire being the best ever, economic etc, bringing civilisation to primitive barbarians. OK there is some fact in there but there is also much deception. The argument that the "native rulers" were or would have been just as bad is sometimes true. Yes the triangular slave trade picking up on an existing practice, but oh boy did it scale it up to something which has a profound and major impact on modern society. OK lets not go over the top on this, but any article on any Empire needs to acknowledge ALL the consequences of Empire. Best to agree some principles and get on with it. -- Snowded TALK 03:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
(Going off the mark, but a point can be argued that Australia committed its one crimes, and were nothing to do with the British Empire, if anything London reigned in the Australian treatment of the Aborigines, which if they hadn`t could have been even worse.) Moving on, obviously something needs to mention about the downside to the Empire, BUT it mustn`t take over this page, as for example the Indian Famines are mentioned in greater detail on their own pages.-- Rockybiggs ( talk) 09:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we are all agreed that something needs to be mentioned or a new section added regarding the Empires downside. Any suggestions on what subjects should be mentioned, the length of the subject, any guidelines etc, etc.. -- Rockybiggs ( talk) 11:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I am totally opposed to an upside downside section. I'm no opposed to adding mention of significant events in the BE in the relevant sections without judgement, e.g. Amritsar. Let the facts speak for themselves. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
1. Self Governing from the 1850s 2. It states the term Genocide is wrong.-- Rockybiggs ( talk) 13:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Where would these images fit into the article? I mean if you include any of the mutiny-related images you've listed - perhaps on the left side of the page - you'd need some balancing images, say, of the murdered British children buried in the well in Bibighar, on the right side of the page. Would that make the article better? I don't think so. I like the image above because it's quite ambiguous. A picture tells a thousand words; You could read a lot into it either way depending on your perspective. The caption simply describes what the picture shows without prejudice. I think the article should be the same way. By all means mention critical events if they are relevant, but this article should not (and WILL not) descend into some sort of tally sheet of imperial crimes vs imperial successes. Tag bits if you think they are subjective. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 21:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, I'd just like to point out some quotes from the article to those above who have suggested this article is unbalanced, or tiptoeing around issues. I'm not saying it mentions everything it should, but it does suggest to me that not everyone has read it in its entirety:
Note these are factual statements, mentioned because they are relevant to a 400 year overview article like this one, and not simply and solely because they were negative, in order to add some perceived balance. Indeed, no judgement is cast, it is left up to the reader to decide whether they were bad. Again, I would not object to the addition of more statements like these ones, but only if they really are major enough to have had a non trivial impact. Otherwise, mention should be made in the subarticles. The most glaring ommission for me at the moment is a factual statement on the interaction between the settlers of America and the native population. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I sincerely hope we can avoid a new section. Perhaps we can begin by listing some ommissions here that we propose to add inline, and then we decide what is or is not appropriate for this B.E. article? The criteria should, I believe, be that the events had a significant causal impact on the direction of the empire, not their level of awfulness as a crime. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 10:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
We may have vehemently disagreed in the past, but on this matter Justin and I seem to be firmly in agreement on everything. Why don't we work on getting the article in a state to be renominated for GA, see what the GA reviewer says (preliminary review suggested the article had "fair representation without bias", BTW [4]), see how much of a problem it is perceived to be by "outsiders", and then deal it? (I still find it sad that the people here shouting for neutrality, or this or that map/flag, are nowhere to be seen when help is needed fixing the more mundane matters.) The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Pat you have a real ownership problem with this article. You added some good material on Ireland but removed the Easter Rising and removed key material. Maybe the troubles bit is elsewhere and could go but you don't decide what is right or wrong in this article. I restored the prior position (with some of your amendments) on one point in what were otherwise a good series of edits. Just reversing those edits demonstrates the ownership issue. -- Snowded TALK 20:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Okay. I see two problems here: (1) "Ownership" - Red Hat makes a lot edits. These are generally positive, but it does put off other editors because whatever they add gets immediately reverted/rewritten. Hence the lack of interest from others. (2) I did indeed say that the section on the Irish Free state is too large. It still is. A huge number of things happened in the world during this period; economic, social and political changes had a significant effect on the Empire and, indeed, the wider world. And yet for some reason a third of this section is taken up by Ireland. The inter war section needs to bridge the gap between World War 1 and World War 2. It needs to explain:
It is impossible to re-write the WW2 section (which needs doing) unless it is supported by a focused inter-war section, but I know what will happen if I start tinkering with it. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 00:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting the hint that I'm being too overbearing here - so I'm raising this issue here first rather than rewording it myself. The following statement has been added to the article, without a supporting reference: "The Loyalists were unwelcome in Nova Scotia, so in 1784 London created the colony of New Brunswick..." I do not believe this to be correct. The Loyalists settled part of Nova Scotia, and pressed for their own government, so that part of Nova Scotia was broken off as New Brunswick. Supporting references as follows:
So this needs to be corrected - the current wording suggests that the loyalists were ejected from Nova Scotia - and then supporting references added. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Rjensen, no your wording does not say the same thing as the sources. It gives the impression that the "unwelcomeness" was one-sided, that the Nova Scotians did not want the Loyalists there, when in actual fact, it was the Loyalists that were pressing for their own government. It also suggests they first moved to Nova Scotia, and then 14,000 moved to the newly created colony of New Brunswick, again wrong (they moved to Nove Scotia, they did not move again, their area of settlement became New Brunswick). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Please, everyone, when adding references, stick to the convention used. The GA review brought up the fact that the references need to have a standard style. So, I spent the better part of an hour methodically going through and correcting this - probably the most boring and painful hour of my life. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The Cambridge Illustrated History of the British Empire discusses the subject of famines in a very balanced way. page 132 We don't need to resort to authors putting the British on the same level as Nazi Germany for references here. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 17:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't have time right now except to note the absence of information on the Columbia District, VI/BC/QCI colonies, the British bases in Chile and Peru, the protectorate on Hawaii, the naval disaster/fiasco at Petropavlovsk etc.....the Pacific Station, the near-wars re teh Oregon, San Juan and Alaska disputes etc etc Skookum1 ( talk) 17:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
On the maps the territory of New France (Quebec) is part of the british empire, I guess its an error since quebec has always been a french territory yes? Maybe it could be corrected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by I am Mike-e ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Woah guys. Calm down a bit. I left a message on User:Taifarious1's talk page before the revert asking if he would shorten it so that the coverage is proportionate. If we gave as much coverage to all the other countries/periods then the article would become VERY long (at least 20 times its current length I reckon). However, reverting it to snippets is not the answer either. Compromise required. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 13:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I am getting really fed up of Red Hat's ownership issues on this page. We have already discussed and agreed changes to the section on Ireland, and now it is arbitrarily changed and reversal results in abuse on my talk page. The elimination of the Lloyd George quote removes substantial context and should stay. OK the minor changes on India make sense but the real issue here is ownership. -- Snowded TALK 15:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to make my position clear on the content. I think the introduction can be shortened, but the lloyd George quote should be retained. I accept the changes to the Indian section. I think the Irish section should stay as per the agreement reached only a few days ago. -- Snowded TALK 15:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
So you simply revert the entirety within seconds? This is unacceptable. You have no more right to decide what should stay than I have, and if you can't deal with my being a major contributor to this article, then I'm sorry but I'm not going to stop because you don't like it. Had I not devoted hours of my personal time to this article, it would still be the piece of s__t that it used to be a couple of years ago (look in the edit history). If all everyone did was revert, like you seem to do, WP would go nowhere. Edits are not set in stone, and you have no more right to decide what should stay than I have.
Now, to examine some of the language added recently:
I could go on, but I'm not going to. The problem is that the language here is more akin to Ferguson's and James's (notably, the works used as references), but the style of these books is not appropriate at an encyclopaedia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The outbreak of World War I had delayed the implementation of home rule in Ireland, leading to the 1916 Easter Rising. In 1919 members of Sinn Féin, a pro-Irish independence party that had won a majority of the Irish seats at Westminster in the 1918 British general election, established an Irish assembly in Dublin, and declared Ireland an independent republic. The Irish Republican Army simultaneously began a guerilla war against the British administration. [1] The Anglo-Irish War ended in 1921 with a stalemate and the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
The incorporation of new territory was accompanied by a bid for independence in the oldest territory. Following the delay to the implementation of Irish home rule and the 1916 Easter Rising, Sinn Féin won a majority of the Irish seats at Westminster in the 1918 British general election. The subsequent declaration of independence and the Anglo-Irish War ended in 1921 with a stalemate and the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty. The twenty six counties of the south were formed into the Irish Free State, a Dominion within the British Empire, with effective internal independence but still constitutionally linked with the British Crown, [2] whilst the six counties of the province of Northern Ireland which had been established in 1920 [3] remained a part of the United Kingdom.
See the difference? I do like your first phrase however so have made that as an edit -- Snowded TALK 15:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Hiya folks. Next time, bring your disputes to the corresponding WikiProject. Perhaps, we can help break future logjams. GoodDay ( talk) 16:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I have the following problems with the inter-war period section.
The conflict during World War I undermined the pre-1914 economic stability, created a generation of disillusioned veterans and opened up the threat of political revolt. David Lloyd George noted that the “whole existing order in its political, social and economic aspects is questioned” and doubts about the empire began to grow in Britain itself.
This paragraph just throws too much out there. The economic stability of what - the world, the BE, Europe? And what is "economic" stability, as opposed to any other kind of stability? Political revolt by who against whom? What was the relevance of DLG's comment to the British Empire per se? If we are going to quote something, it should be specifically about the BE (compare vs the Suez quotes). What were these doubts that grew? This paragraph should really only briefly discuss changing attitudes to the empire caused by WWI.
British hegemony was also weakened at sea. The Royal Navy ended the war with almost as many capital ships as all the other navies combined, but this soon changed with the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922. Despite the signing of the Four-Power Treaty, a new balance of power was created in the Far East as Britain accepted naval parity with the United States, terminating the 1902 Anglo-Japanese Alliance and allowing Japan to develop a substantial fleet of its own.
Aside from the needless injection of "also", again here, the emphasis is wrong. At this time, it was becoming apparent to the British that they could not possibly defend the entirety of their global empire at once. They had in fact relied on Japan's navy in the Pacific during WWI, and then had to play a balancing act between the USA and Japan in subsequent decades. The strength of the empire was really an illusion that could come crashing down as soon as it was challenged (as it was in WW2). This paragraph should concentrate on this matter. It is discussed extensively in chapter 11 of [10].
The balance of power also changed in Europe. The war had generated huge debts and it proved impossible to reintroduce the gold standard. This and other factors led to the Great Depression of 1929. Although the effects were comparatively mild in Britain, some parts of the empire were badly affected. The British came to rely more on the markets of the empire, tightening economic bonds even as political ties were weakened. In Europe, however, the economic downturn was generally severe and helped right-wing political parties to power. Militaristic expansionism in Germany and Italy threatened the status quo, but in Britain defence spending did not become a high priority until the Second World War was clearly visible on the horizon.
Another "also". But again, this paragraph does not relate matters directly to the British Empire. So what about the Gold Standard - what did that mean as far as the BE was concerned? The Great Depression affected the whole world, but what did it change specifically about the BE? "tightening economic bonds even as political ties were weakened." - for the dominions, yes, but for a lot of the empire, there was no such weakening of political ties at this point. And what was this "status quo" that was disturbed by Germany and Italy?
In summary: the new version of this section attempts to bite off more than it is possible to chew, and rectifying that was the reason for my edits today.
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 17:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
*The economic stability of what - the world, the BE, Europe?
And what is "economic" stability, as opposed to any other kind of stability?
Political revolt by who against whom?
What was the relevance of DLG's comment to the British Empire per se? If we are going to quote something, it should be specifically about the BE (compare vs the Suez quotes).
What were these doubts that grew? This paragraph should really only briefly discuss changing attitudes to the empire caused by WWI.
Aside from the needless injection of "also"
the emphasis is wrong. At this time, it was becoming apparent to the British that they could not possibly defend the entirety of their global empire at once.
They had in fact relied on Japan's navy in the Pacific during WWI, and then had to play a balancing act between the USA and Japan in subsequent decades. The strength of the empire was really an illusion that could come crashing down as soon as it was challenged (as it was in WW2).
This paragraph should concentrate on this matter. It is discussed extensively...
Another "also".
But again, this paragraph does not relate matters directly to the British Empire.So what about the Gold Standard - what did that mean as far as the BE was concerned? The Great Depression affected the whole world, but what did it change specifically about the BE?
"tightening economic bonds even as political ties were weakened." - for the dominions, yes, but for a lot of the empire, there was no such weakening of political ties at this point.
And what was this "status quo" that was disturbed by Germany and Italy?
In summary: the new version of this section attempts to bite off more than it is possible to chew, and rectifying that was the reason for my edits today.
More quotes:
Again you mistake a paragraph describing a line of logic with "original research" because each word doesn't come with a little citation to "prove" it. Consider whether any of the quotations provided are actually coherent. The Royal Navy had traditionally attempted to maintain a fleet that could predominate over all others combined, but by 1897 Britain had lost absolute naval supremacy.
"...in the years prior to 1914, the mismatch between strategy and actual power did not seem to be of fundamental significance."
"...Now, however, the British government was admitting that the cost of maintaining forces, particularly naval, around the globe capable of protecting every element of the empire was no longer feasible."
Various other sources you've quoted have talked about illusions, bluffs and facades. The section needs to be clear that the balance of power had changed, but it must not fall for those illusions and make it seem that the Empire had been stronger than it actually was. That is what I am trying to argue. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 20:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that we agree to halt all major edits now and submit this article for GA review, given that the initial problems outlined have been addressed. Then we can see what "outsiders" feel about the prose style, and address it accordingly. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 21:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
did they really lose? they kept the bourbon kings but Spain only lost its european territories (which would regain years later) -- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 21:31, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted the map change. Afghanistan and Tibet were not British colonies (more spheres of influence), and nor was the entirety of Borneo (the modern-day Indonesia portion of it was Dutch). Senegal was French, not British. There are no boundaries between the British colonies. Reference: Penguin Historical Atlas of the British Empire and of course our old trusty friend, this map [12] The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
This RED-COLORED map I created is a better (WAY BETTER!) map than the brown-colored map of before , i decided to modify it in order to make it look better , for example : Gibraltar is very small and doesn't occupy a huge(!!) dot on the Iberian Peninsula, same with Bermuda Island , its very small and its not the size of Ceylon as it looked on the brown-colored map ,also the Lousiana Territory borders are now more detailed and less erronous as it appeared before , i hope you guys like the map:)-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 22:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
got it mate! i didn't actually colored the map red because of a personal preference or something , i just RE-MADE the map to show places that belonged or to correct lands that didn't belonged to the British Empire . Lands like the British Virgin Islands , or the Lousiania Territory borders have been corrected in a much more detailed way , or parts like Gibraltar and/or Bermuda Island . I made a new map (again) with the color that resembled the brown-colored map but its borders and lands have been changed (correctly so) :)
-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Ferrick i give you the Hong Kong and Gibraltar part , but other than that you are just trying to be an ass**** (no attack), i spelled Britania in purpose , i thought the name Britannia might be taken and why does the name really matter ? its not a big issue to die over. I'll correct Uganda and Solomon islands . And how is the new map more erronous than the old one?! do you guys known what the louisiana territory border looks like?! -- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 21:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
ok i made a new map , this one is very precise , if anything is wrong with it (which i doubt) please make it clear , New modifications : 1)Gibraltar & Hong Kong enhanced , 2)Uganda/Solomon Islands .-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 22:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
well....its not even on the old map so i dont think they really matter , they are too small to even be noticable , but if you want go ahead and change it-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 22:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Menorca can be hardly considered part of the British Empire (as i have never seen or read being part of the Empire) , it was more of military occupied , if you go by this standard , then the British section of Germany , Italy and Japan (post-ww2) must be also shown , not really much sense then right?
One question to Red Pat Ferrick , im the AUTHOR of that map , why does it say its Cameron? i created the map from scratch , using a blank-world map ,so i think i should be given credit .-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 21:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
If you guys want to add Menorca thats fine , but i have never really seen it in books counting it as part of empire, but like i said go ahead and add it , im too tired right now to add it sorry:)
Buenos Aires NOT. Military occupying a city is not forming part of a empire , they were never british subjects anyways. Also if you want to go that way , then many countries can use that principle to artificially add land to their empire. For example , Spain had troops stationed in Mexico (after independece) but is that really a colony or empire? another example , USA has troops and occupying Iraq...is this a colony or forms part of a "American empire" too?-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Breaking this into a new section:
Menorca was ceded to Great Britain by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1715; the same treaty that gave us Gibraltar. The Royal Navy had held it since 1708. Although the French captured the island later in the century, it was returned to Britain in peacetime. Menorca was only retroceded to Spain in 1802, in the Treaty of Amiens. It was never regained. (Port Mahon served as a base for the Royal Navy later during the Peninsular War, but as Spanish territory, under a treaty of alliance with Borbon Spain.)
Menorca could therefore be included on an anachronous map.
Howard Alexander ( talk) 23:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
If you guys want to add Menorca thats fine , but i have never really seen it in books counting it as part of empire, but like i said go ahead and add it , im too tired right now to add it sorry:)
Buenos Aires NOT. Military occupying a city is not forming part of a empire , they were never british subjects anyways. Also if you want to go that way , then many countries can use that principle to artificially add land to their empire. For example , Spain had troops stationed in Mexico (after independece) but is that really a colony or empire? another example , USA has troops and occupying Iraq...is this a colony or forms part of a "American empire" too?-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Look Justin and Red Hat Ferrick , those islands you are most welcome to add , but not Buenos Aires because it was never part of the British Empire , would you want to include the British section in Germany after ww2 as being part of the empire too? lol , lets be realistic , do you know how many posts the dutch conquered in their imperial history? it would be ridiculous and never-ending naming them all :)
As for the antartic territory , is Chile , Argentina , Norway among other nations empires too because they hold a piece of land which is covered in ice with no native or/and stable population ? If you want add the british antartic claims but it would look ridiculous (big-time)-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 01:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I know you agreed , and so did I with you , so go ahead include Menorca , i was actually really referring to Justin even though i wrote your name-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 01:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I do want Menorca to be added , it was part of the UK empire , but you guys change it , im very tired right now . I wasn't comparing Menorca to the british section of Germany after WW2 , i was comparing british occupation of Buenos Aires to the british section in Germany. Btw its not that i wanted my map over somebody's elses , i just wanted my map to show im the author (correctly so) because Usder Red Hat Ferrick had placed my map under another user's name , something i didn't like...-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Yea they were all gone before any British Empire took shape. In continental Europe , only Gibraltar should be shown as british territory .
For Calais, Normnandy you should create a "English Empire" article hehe-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 20:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that Minorca was missing from the map, and am pleased that this has been noted on this page. If the map is intended to be a map of all British Empire territories, then it's not only the case that Minorca *could* be included, but that it *should* be included. It's also the case that the (now Greek) Ionian Islands, most notably Corfu, were a British protectorate from 1815 to 1864 - see United States of the Ionian Islands - so should also be coloured red Simhedges ( talk) 12:59, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought golf was invented quite a long time before the Victorian age. 86.150.102.78 ( talk) 13:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC).
Can we semiprotect ths article so only established users are allow to edit?? too much vandalism...-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 01:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I (we) have been granted granted a semi-protect "bill" for 1 week , so we should put as much correct info and fix as much as we can on the article. 1 week to get this to a GA status if we can!-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 03:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Finetooth very kindly peer reviewed the article, report is here Wikipedia:Peer review/British Empire/archive2. I am going to tackle the suggestions this weekend, unless anyone beats me to it. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
As I've made a series of non-minor changes [16], I thought I should explain myself here lest anyone think I am attempting to hide them amongst a series of edits following on from the peer review:
I have also made this edit [18], condensing the salient points of the last two paragraphs of the section (navy, economic downturn, importance of empire for trade, rise of militarism) into a smaller word count within the context of British imperial policy. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I removed this paragraph for the second time [1]. Perhaps I should have raised it here first rather than removing it, but anyway, I did what I did. There are a multitude of "good" and "bad" things that resulted from British colonial rule, with the definition of "good" and "bad" depending on who you ask. Of course, noone would suggest a famine was good, but why single this "bad thing" out, and in particular, this single interpretation of its causes? In Imperialism & Orientalism by Barbara Harlow & Mia Carter [2] the various explanations by "historians, economists, administrators and statesmen" are discussed, one of which is the effect of colonial policies, but others attribute blame to the actions of Indians themselves or Mother Nature. Who is correct? I don't know, but this article is not the place for that debate. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
⬅`Avoiding the quagmire is to take a political position on that quagmire. The whole article is written from a modern perspective, in so far as it quotes modern authors. We are not taking about minor matters, to add one more: herding aboriginals over a cliff in Tasmania, not acknowledging them as human until 1967, one of the longest periods of sustained genocide in the history of the human race). When I was at school we were taught the myths of the British Empire being the best ever, economic etc, bringing civilisation to primitive barbarians. OK there is some fact in there but there is also much deception. The argument that the "native rulers" were or would have been just as bad is sometimes true. Yes the triangular slave trade picking up on an existing practice, but oh boy did it scale it up to something which has a profound and major impact on modern society. OK lets not go over the top on this, but any article on any Empire needs to acknowledge ALL the consequences of Empire. Best to agree some principles and get on with it. -- Snowded TALK 03:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
(Going off the mark, but a point can be argued that Australia committed its one crimes, and were nothing to do with the British Empire, if anything London reigned in the Australian treatment of the Aborigines, which if they hadn`t could have been even worse.) Moving on, obviously something needs to mention about the downside to the Empire, BUT it mustn`t take over this page, as for example the Indian Famines are mentioned in greater detail on their own pages.-- Rockybiggs ( talk) 09:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I think we are all agreed that something needs to be mentioned or a new section added regarding the Empires downside. Any suggestions on what subjects should be mentioned, the length of the subject, any guidelines etc, etc.. -- Rockybiggs ( talk) 11:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I am totally opposed to an upside downside section. I'm no opposed to adding mention of significant events in the BE in the relevant sections without judgement, e.g. Amritsar. Let the facts speak for themselves. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 11:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
1. Self Governing from the 1850s 2. It states the term Genocide is wrong.-- Rockybiggs ( talk) 13:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Where would these images fit into the article? I mean if you include any of the mutiny-related images you've listed - perhaps on the left side of the page - you'd need some balancing images, say, of the murdered British children buried in the well in Bibighar, on the right side of the page. Would that make the article better? I don't think so. I like the image above because it's quite ambiguous. A picture tells a thousand words; You could read a lot into it either way depending on your perspective. The caption simply describes what the picture shows without prejudice. I think the article should be the same way. By all means mention critical events if they are relevant, but this article should not (and WILL not) descend into some sort of tally sheet of imperial crimes vs imperial successes. Tag bits if you think they are subjective. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 21:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, I'd just like to point out some quotes from the article to those above who have suggested this article is unbalanced, or tiptoeing around issues. I'm not saying it mentions everything it should, but it does suggest to me that not everyone has read it in its entirety:
Note these are factual statements, mentioned because they are relevant to a 400 year overview article like this one, and not simply and solely because they were negative, in order to add some perceived balance. Indeed, no judgement is cast, it is left up to the reader to decide whether they were bad. Again, I would not object to the addition of more statements like these ones, but only if they really are major enough to have had a non trivial impact. Otherwise, mention should be made in the subarticles. The most glaring ommission for me at the moment is a factual statement on the interaction between the settlers of America and the native population. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I sincerely hope we can avoid a new section. Perhaps we can begin by listing some ommissions here that we propose to add inline, and then we decide what is or is not appropriate for this B.E. article? The criteria should, I believe, be that the events had a significant causal impact on the direction of the empire, not their level of awfulness as a crime. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 10:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
We may have vehemently disagreed in the past, but on this matter Justin and I seem to be firmly in agreement on everything. Why don't we work on getting the article in a state to be renominated for GA, see what the GA reviewer says (preliminary review suggested the article had "fair representation without bias", BTW [4]), see how much of a problem it is perceived to be by "outsiders", and then deal it? (I still find it sad that the people here shouting for neutrality, or this or that map/flag, are nowhere to be seen when help is needed fixing the more mundane matters.) The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Pat you have a real ownership problem with this article. You added some good material on Ireland but removed the Easter Rising and removed key material. Maybe the troubles bit is elsewhere and could go but you don't decide what is right or wrong in this article. I restored the prior position (with some of your amendments) on one point in what were otherwise a good series of edits. Just reversing those edits demonstrates the ownership issue. -- Snowded TALK 20:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Okay. I see two problems here: (1) "Ownership" - Red Hat makes a lot edits. These are generally positive, but it does put off other editors because whatever they add gets immediately reverted/rewritten. Hence the lack of interest from others. (2) I did indeed say that the section on the Irish Free state is too large. It still is. A huge number of things happened in the world during this period; economic, social and political changes had a significant effect on the Empire and, indeed, the wider world. And yet for some reason a third of this section is taken up by Ireland. The inter war section needs to bridge the gap between World War 1 and World War 2. It needs to explain:
It is impossible to re-write the WW2 section (which needs doing) unless it is supported by a focused inter-war section, but I know what will happen if I start tinkering with it. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 00:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting the hint that I'm being too overbearing here - so I'm raising this issue here first rather than rewording it myself. The following statement has been added to the article, without a supporting reference: "The Loyalists were unwelcome in Nova Scotia, so in 1784 London created the colony of New Brunswick..." I do not believe this to be correct. The Loyalists settled part of Nova Scotia, and pressed for their own government, so that part of Nova Scotia was broken off as New Brunswick. Supporting references as follows:
So this needs to be corrected - the current wording suggests that the loyalists were ejected from Nova Scotia - and then supporting references added. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Rjensen, no your wording does not say the same thing as the sources. It gives the impression that the "unwelcomeness" was one-sided, that the Nova Scotians did not want the Loyalists there, when in actual fact, it was the Loyalists that were pressing for their own government. It also suggests they first moved to Nova Scotia, and then 14,000 moved to the newly created colony of New Brunswick, again wrong (they moved to Nove Scotia, they did not move again, their area of settlement became New Brunswick). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Please, everyone, when adding references, stick to the convention used. The GA review brought up the fact that the references need to have a standard style. So, I spent the better part of an hour methodically going through and correcting this - probably the most boring and painful hour of my life. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 14:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
The Cambridge Illustrated History of the British Empire discusses the subject of famines in a very balanced way. page 132 We don't need to resort to authors putting the British on the same level as Nazi Germany for references here. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 17:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't have time right now except to note the absence of information on the Columbia District, VI/BC/QCI colonies, the British bases in Chile and Peru, the protectorate on Hawaii, the naval disaster/fiasco at Petropavlovsk etc.....the Pacific Station, the near-wars re teh Oregon, San Juan and Alaska disputes etc etc Skookum1 ( talk) 17:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
On the maps the territory of New France (Quebec) is part of the british empire, I guess its an error since quebec has always been a french territory yes? Maybe it could be corrected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by I am Mike-e ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Woah guys. Calm down a bit. I left a message on User:Taifarious1's talk page before the revert asking if he would shorten it so that the coverage is proportionate. If we gave as much coverage to all the other countries/periods then the article would become VERY long (at least 20 times its current length I reckon). However, reverting it to snippets is not the answer either. Compromise required. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 13:41, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I am getting really fed up of Red Hat's ownership issues on this page. We have already discussed and agreed changes to the section on Ireland, and now it is arbitrarily changed and reversal results in abuse on my talk page. The elimination of the Lloyd George quote removes substantial context and should stay. OK the minor changes on India make sense but the real issue here is ownership. -- Snowded TALK 15:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to make my position clear on the content. I think the introduction can be shortened, but the lloyd George quote should be retained. I accept the changes to the Indian section. I think the Irish section should stay as per the agreement reached only a few days ago. -- Snowded TALK 15:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
So you simply revert the entirety within seconds? This is unacceptable. You have no more right to decide what should stay than I have, and if you can't deal with my being a major contributor to this article, then I'm sorry but I'm not going to stop because you don't like it. Had I not devoted hours of my personal time to this article, it would still be the piece of s__t that it used to be a couple of years ago (look in the edit history). If all everyone did was revert, like you seem to do, WP would go nowhere. Edits are not set in stone, and you have no more right to decide what should stay than I have.
Now, to examine some of the language added recently:
I could go on, but I'm not going to. The problem is that the language here is more akin to Ferguson's and James's (notably, the works used as references), but the style of these books is not appropriate at an encyclopaedia. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 15:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The outbreak of World War I had delayed the implementation of home rule in Ireland, leading to the 1916 Easter Rising. In 1919 members of Sinn Féin, a pro-Irish independence party that had won a majority of the Irish seats at Westminster in the 1918 British general election, established an Irish assembly in Dublin, and declared Ireland an independent republic. The Irish Republican Army simultaneously began a guerilla war against the British administration. [1] The Anglo-Irish War ended in 1921 with a stalemate and the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
The incorporation of new territory was accompanied by a bid for independence in the oldest territory. Following the delay to the implementation of Irish home rule and the 1916 Easter Rising, Sinn Féin won a majority of the Irish seats at Westminster in the 1918 British general election. The subsequent declaration of independence and the Anglo-Irish War ended in 1921 with a stalemate and the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty. The twenty six counties of the south were formed into the Irish Free State, a Dominion within the British Empire, with effective internal independence but still constitutionally linked with the British Crown, [2] whilst the six counties of the province of Northern Ireland which had been established in 1920 [3] remained a part of the United Kingdom.
See the difference? I do like your first phrase however so have made that as an edit -- Snowded TALK 15:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Hiya folks. Next time, bring your disputes to the corresponding WikiProject. Perhaps, we can help break future logjams. GoodDay ( talk) 16:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I have the following problems with the inter-war period section.
The conflict during World War I undermined the pre-1914 economic stability, created a generation of disillusioned veterans and opened up the threat of political revolt. David Lloyd George noted that the “whole existing order in its political, social and economic aspects is questioned” and doubts about the empire began to grow in Britain itself.
This paragraph just throws too much out there. The economic stability of what - the world, the BE, Europe? And what is "economic" stability, as opposed to any other kind of stability? Political revolt by who against whom? What was the relevance of DLG's comment to the British Empire per se? If we are going to quote something, it should be specifically about the BE (compare vs the Suez quotes). What were these doubts that grew? This paragraph should really only briefly discuss changing attitudes to the empire caused by WWI.
British hegemony was also weakened at sea. The Royal Navy ended the war with almost as many capital ships as all the other navies combined, but this soon changed with the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922. Despite the signing of the Four-Power Treaty, a new balance of power was created in the Far East as Britain accepted naval parity with the United States, terminating the 1902 Anglo-Japanese Alliance and allowing Japan to develop a substantial fleet of its own.
Aside from the needless injection of "also", again here, the emphasis is wrong. At this time, it was becoming apparent to the British that they could not possibly defend the entirety of their global empire at once. They had in fact relied on Japan's navy in the Pacific during WWI, and then had to play a balancing act between the USA and Japan in subsequent decades. The strength of the empire was really an illusion that could come crashing down as soon as it was challenged (as it was in WW2). This paragraph should concentrate on this matter. It is discussed extensively in chapter 11 of [10].
The balance of power also changed in Europe. The war had generated huge debts and it proved impossible to reintroduce the gold standard. This and other factors led to the Great Depression of 1929. Although the effects were comparatively mild in Britain, some parts of the empire were badly affected. The British came to rely more on the markets of the empire, tightening economic bonds even as political ties were weakened. In Europe, however, the economic downturn was generally severe and helped right-wing political parties to power. Militaristic expansionism in Germany and Italy threatened the status quo, but in Britain defence spending did not become a high priority until the Second World War was clearly visible on the horizon.
Another "also". But again, this paragraph does not relate matters directly to the British Empire. So what about the Gold Standard - what did that mean as far as the BE was concerned? The Great Depression affected the whole world, but what did it change specifically about the BE? "tightening economic bonds even as political ties were weakened." - for the dominions, yes, but for a lot of the empire, there was no such weakening of political ties at this point. And what was this "status quo" that was disturbed by Germany and Italy?
In summary: the new version of this section attempts to bite off more than it is possible to chew, and rectifying that was the reason for my edits today.
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 17:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
*The economic stability of what - the world, the BE, Europe?
And what is "economic" stability, as opposed to any other kind of stability?
Political revolt by who against whom?
What was the relevance of DLG's comment to the British Empire per se? If we are going to quote something, it should be specifically about the BE (compare vs the Suez quotes).
What were these doubts that grew? This paragraph should really only briefly discuss changing attitudes to the empire caused by WWI.
Aside from the needless injection of "also"
the emphasis is wrong. At this time, it was becoming apparent to the British that they could not possibly defend the entirety of their global empire at once.
They had in fact relied on Japan's navy in the Pacific during WWI, and then had to play a balancing act between the USA and Japan in subsequent decades. The strength of the empire was really an illusion that could come crashing down as soon as it was challenged (as it was in WW2).
This paragraph should concentrate on this matter. It is discussed extensively...
Another "also".
But again, this paragraph does not relate matters directly to the British Empire.So what about the Gold Standard - what did that mean as far as the BE was concerned? The Great Depression affected the whole world, but what did it change specifically about the BE?
"tightening economic bonds even as political ties were weakened." - for the dominions, yes, but for a lot of the empire, there was no such weakening of political ties at this point.
And what was this "status quo" that was disturbed by Germany and Italy?
In summary: the new version of this section attempts to bite off more than it is possible to chew, and rectifying that was the reason for my edits today.
More quotes:
Again you mistake a paragraph describing a line of logic with "original research" because each word doesn't come with a little citation to "prove" it. Consider whether any of the quotations provided are actually coherent. The Royal Navy had traditionally attempted to maintain a fleet that could predominate over all others combined, but by 1897 Britain had lost absolute naval supremacy.
"...in the years prior to 1914, the mismatch between strategy and actual power did not seem to be of fundamental significance."
"...Now, however, the British government was admitting that the cost of maintaining forces, particularly naval, around the globe capable of protecting every element of the empire was no longer feasible."
Various other sources you've quoted have talked about illusions, bluffs and facades. The section needs to be clear that the balance of power had changed, but it must not fall for those illusions and make it seem that the Empire had been stronger than it actually was. That is what I am trying to argue. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 20:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that we agree to halt all major edits now and submit this article for GA review, given that the initial problems outlined have been addressed. Then we can see what "outsiders" feel about the prose style, and address it accordingly. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 21:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 18:22, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
did they really lose? they kept the bourbon kings but Spain only lost its european territories (which would regain years later) -- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 21:31, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted the map change. Afghanistan and Tibet were not British colonies (more spheres of influence), and nor was the entirety of Borneo (the modern-day Indonesia portion of it was Dutch). Senegal was French, not British. There are no boundaries between the British colonies. Reference: Penguin Historical Atlas of the British Empire and of course our old trusty friend, this map [12] The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
This RED-COLORED map I created is a better (WAY BETTER!) map than the brown-colored map of before , i decided to modify it in order to make it look better , for example : Gibraltar is very small and doesn't occupy a huge(!!) dot on the Iberian Peninsula, same with Bermuda Island , its very small and its not the size of Ceylon as it looked on the brown-colored map ,also the Lousiana Territory borders are now more detailed and less erronous as it appeared before , i hope you guys like the map:)-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 22:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
got it mate! i didn't actually colored the map red because of a personal preference or something , i just RE-MADE the map to show places that belonged or to correct lands that didn't belonged to the British Empire . Lands like the British Virgin Islands , or the Lousiania Territory borders have been corrected in a much more detailed way , or parts like Gibraltar and/or Bermuda Island . I made a new map (again) with the color that resembled the brown-colored map but its borders and lands have been changed (correctly so) :)
-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:24, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Ferrick i give you the Hong Kong and Gibraltar part , but other than that you are just trying to be an ass**** (no attack), i spelled Britania in purpose , i thought the name Britannia might be taken and why does the name really matter ? its not a big issue to die over. I'll correct Uganda and Solomon islands . And how is the new map more erronous than the old one?! do you guys known what the louisiana territory border looks like?! -- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 21:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
ok i made a new map , this one is very precise , if anything is wrong with it (which i doubt) please make it clear , New modifications : 1)Gibraltar & Hong Kong enhanced , 2)Uganda/Solomon Islands .-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 22:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
well....its not even on the old map so i dont think they really matter , they are too small to even be noticable , but if you want go ahead and change it-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 22:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Menorca can be hardly considered part of the British Empire (as i have never seen or read being part of the Empire) , it was more of military occupied , if you go by this standard , then the British section of Germany , Italy and Japan (post-ww2) must be also shown , not really much sense then right?
One question to Red Pat Ferrick , im the AUTHOR of that map , why does it say its Cameron? i created the map from scratch , using a blank-world map ,so i think i should be given credit .-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 21:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
If you guys want to add Menorca thats fine , but i have never really seen it in books counting it as part of empire, but like i said go ahead and add it , im too tired right now to add it sorry:)
Buenos Aires NOT. Military occupying a city is not forming part of a empire , they were never british subjects anyways. Also if you want to go that way , then many countries can use that principle to artificially add land to their empire. For example , Spain had troops stationed in Mexico (after independece) but is that really a colony or empire? another example , USA has troops and occupying Iraq...is this a colony or forms part of a "American empire" too?-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Breaking this into a new section:
Menorca was ceded to Great Britain by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1715; the same treaty that gave us Gibraltar. The Royal Navy had held it since 1708. Although the French captured the island later in the century, it was returned to Britain in peacetime. Menorca was only retroceded to Spain in 1802, in the Treaty of Amiens. It was never regained. (Port Mahon served as a base for the Royal Navy later during the Peninsular War, but as Spanish territory, under a treaty of alliance with Borbon Spain.)
Menorca could therefore be included on an anachronous map.
Howard Alexander ( talk) 23:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
If you guys want to add Menorca thats fine , but i have never really seen it in books counting it as part of empire, but like i said go ahead and add it , im too tired right now to add it sorry:)
Buenos Aires NOT. Military occupying a city is not forming part of a empire , they were never british subjects anyways. Also if you want to go that way , then many countries can use that principle to artificially add land to their empire. For example , Spain had troops stationed in Mexico (after independece) but is that really a colony or empire? another example , USA has troops and occupying Iraq...is this a colony or forms part of a "American empire" too?-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Look Justin and Red Hat Ferrick , those islands you are most welcome to add , but not Buenos Aires because it was never part of the British Empire , would you want to include the British section in Germany after ww2 as being part of the empire too? lol , lets be realistic , do you know how many posts the dutch conquered in their imperial history? it would be ridiculous and never-ending naming them all :)
As for the antartic territory , is Chile , Argentina , Norway among other nations empires too because they hold a piece of land which is covered in ice with no native or/and stable population ? If you want add the british antartic claims but it would look ridiculous (big-time)-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 01:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I know you agreed , and so did I with you , so go ahead include Menorca , i was actually really referring to Justin even though i wrote your name-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 01:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I do want Menorca to be added , it was part of the UK empire , but you guys change it , im very tired right now . I wasn't comparing Menorca to the british section of Germany after WW2 , i was comparing british occupation of Buenos Aires to the british section in Germany. Btw its not that i wanted my map over somebody's elses , i just wanted my map to show im the author (correctly so) because Usder Red Hat Ferrick had placed my map under another user's name , something i didn't like...-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 23:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Yea they were all gone before any British Empire took shape. In continental Europe , only Gibraltar should be shown as british territory .
For Calais, Normnandy you should create a "English Empire" article hehe-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 20:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that Minorca was missing from the map, and am pleased that this has been noted on this page. If the map is intended to be a map of all British Empire territories, then it's not only the case that Minorca *could* be included, but that it *should* be included. It's also the case that the (now Greek) Ionian Islands, most notably Corfu, were a British protectorate from 1815 to 1864 - see United States of the Ionian Islands - so should also be coloured red Simhedges ( talk) 12:59, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought golf was invented quite a long time before the Victorian age. 86.150.102.78 ( talk) 13:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC).
Can we semiprotect ths article so only established users are allow to edit?? too much vandalism...-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 01:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I (we) have been granted granted a semi-protect "bill" for 1 week , so we should put as much correct info and fix as much as we can on the article. 1 week to get this to a GA status if we can!-- EuroHistoryTeacher ( talk) 03:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Finetooth very kindly peer reviewed the article, report is here Wikipedia:Peer review/British Empire/archive2. I am going to tackle the suggestions this weekend, unless anyone beats me to it. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
As I've made a series of non-minor changes [16], I thought I should explain myself here lest anyone think I am attempting to hide them amongst a series of edits following on from the peer review:
I have also made this edit [18], condensing the salient points of the last two paragraphs of the section (navy, economic downturn, importance of empire for trade, rise of militarism) into a smaller word count within the context of British imperial policy. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 23:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)