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There was a different article on Brian McLaren at Brian Mclaren, which I have redirected to here. The content of this article can be seen here. There may be some info on this alternate page that could be integrated into this article. Proto|| type 11:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
FYI - the critics section is turning into a spam fest. The purpose of the article should be to shed more light on the person/topic, not to advertise a miriad of critics. -- Virgil Vaduva 04:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The Emergent enthusiast Virgil Vaduva continues to censor my article The Secret Message of Brian McLaren. He calls the article "spam." It is not spam in any sense of the word. It is a factual and thoroughly sourced critique of McLaren's teachings. The article portrays McLaren in an honest light. This is something that Vaduva is thus far unwilling to allow. So much for Emergent "toleration" and "inclusiveness." -- Dave Green :)
The attempt has been made, as the entry by Virgil Vaduva shows, to silence any view contrary to his view on the information provided in this article. The censorship demonstrated by his removal of any critical references is against the very nature of Wikipedia and is more akin to totalitarianism. --
If anyone has a problem with the critics links removed please speak up - most of the articles linked were to nonsensical obscure websites. I left one article linked to Christianity Today, which is written by the prominent Chuck Colson. Again, please beware of the Wikipedia rules before you add outside links which could be classified as spam. The main purpose of any Wiki entry is to provide information on a particular topic, not to flood the article with links to obscure critics and advertise such articles. -- Virgil Vaduva 04:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I recognize the pattern here. Everyone is becoming overly sensitive to any changes made to the article because of past hostilities. Virgil, if you know of someone skilled in English try running the issues involved past them. I'm an ex-English teacher who has had several works published but you may question my objectivity (oops, objective is a modern term -- just kidding Virgil). Please thoughtfully consider the content and style of my edits. I believe you will see they improve the quality and credibility of the article you are fond of. Poor writing detracts from credibility. As written, it sounded like a college sophomore wrote it (sorry all of you editors, but it is true -- see my piece titled "Before You Contribute" on my userpage). The article still needs much improvement, but the changes I made are at least a start to getting a credible, well-written article on McLaren in Wikipedia, and isn't that what we want? We have time to hammer out a thoughtful, first-rate article if you guys would like to colloborate. Will3935 01:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
For someone who interviewed McLaren you seem to be suprisingly ignorant of his views. Stating factually what he has gone on public record as believing is in no way inflammatory. It sounds like you are personally vested in this article and are so emotional you have lost some of your objectivity (there I go again with that modern term -- just kidding again). I will try to compromise with you, but you must know that repeated blanket reverts can get you blocked. I'll be around for a long time. Let's work together in a spirit of give and take to create an article that is accurate and unbiased. That may not be how things are done on a personal blog, but Wikipedia is, of course, neutral territory. We will have plenty of time for me to thoroughly document any edits I make. Please respect my right as a Wikipedian to make them. If you think I have not sufficiently documented a claim you can ask for a citation in the body of the text. That is how things are done in Wikipedia and I am sure we will get along fine as we work together. I will be most happy to document everything I say from McLaren's own works. I have read his works and am continuing to research him. A Christian publisher has asked me to write a book about postmodernism and the Church. I don't say this to brag, but to illustrate my concern with your apparent lack of knowledge of McLaren. True, he speaks out of both sides of the mouth at times but he nowhere denies being postmodern and I'm sure he would not deny that others have considered him liberal. That is a fact that responsable Wikipedians cannot censor. Censorship of the facts does not belong in an encyclopedia. Others have criticized him and it is our responsibility to give both sides of the story. This is not a McLaren authorised biography, it is a neutral reference work. Anyway, I look forward to a long and prosperous collaboration. I think it will work. Again, I suggest all of the editors let their emotions calm a little. It seems some of you have hair triggers at this time. I'll get back to you soon, Virgil. I'll bet you're not as bad as those other editors think you are and I'll bet they are not as bad as you may think. Perhaps I can be a peacemaker here. We will all have to give and take. Will3935 04:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The number of critical links is getting larger than the number of references....again it seems like people are using this article for publicity to their anti-McLaren sites and pages. I suggest mainstream critics like Carson, MacArthur and Colson should definitely remain; there are un-linked books with no ISBNs by people I never heard of. I will remove them until someone provides better references. -- Virgil Vaduva 23:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Virgil feels if he has not heard of a book that makes the book insignificant. It seems to me it just shows how poorly read Virgil is and how he has not bothered to read critiques of McLaren. That is why you need us Virgil -- to help you in your blind spots (yes, apparently Virgil is like the rest of us in that he does not know everything). Also, we cannot help it if you are not familiar with epistemology and other crucial issues. Your ignorance should not limit the scope of this article. Furthermore, it would be nice if you would act more mature and quit picking fights. Can we at least try to act civil even if we disagree? Seriously, man. Even if you dislike others' edits they have a right to contribute (Virgil Vaduva does not own Wikipedia). If you dislike our edits try talking to us like grown ups do. You only hurt your own credibility and persuasiveness by going postal all the time. Try just talking in a mature fashion. I have had two emergent friends who did so and it was great. I'll bet you can do it if you try. Even if you feel a tantrum coming on just try to act normal. See what it does for you! Will3935 03:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Can any of the editors contributing to this article explain why "1980's" is wikified in it? I think that seems a little over the top and thus takes away from the scholarly tone of the article. Can someone give a good reason for keeping it? Will3935 05:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the article might profit from further development of its structure. There seems to be ony one section (biography). Perhaps this should be further developed into sections titled "biography," "theology," "controversy," and "bibliography." Anyone have any thoughts of their own about structure? Will3935 06:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have asked for a third opinion from administrators in an effort to resolve the editing conflict between Virgil and I. This is not an accusation against anyone; it is simply a request for help that we might make this article live up to its potential. In the meantime, I propose a moratorium on further mainspace edits (except for minor, punctuation corrections) while we await the third opinion and see if that helps us. During such a moratorium we could discuss proposed additions, corrections etc. It seems a good idea to me anyway if others will agree to it (it will give us a chance to colloborate). Will3935 08:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Immediately upon visiting the article, I noticed two things about the references. First is a bibliography section that is not cited in-text. If that format is to be retained, I would recommend citing them directly in the article using the Harvard style. Also, critical references and newspaper articles should be combined with the bibliography, perhaps as a references section. The seperate critical references, along with the sheer number, is troubling to me and raises concerns relevent to WP:UNDUE. I would recommend all active editors take a good look over WP:CITE and work out a consensus about which reference/notes format the article will use to combine and cite the references appropriately. Another thing to look at would be paring down the number of sources by removing redundant sources. These do not need to be entirely removed from the article if that is undesirable, as a further reading section can be easily created. I'd also suggest that his biographical details, his views and his critics' views all be under seperate sections. WP:MOSBIO, WP:GTL and WP:BETTER may all be useful references for improving this article. I hope this helps. Feel free to respond with any questions or comments. Vassyana 12:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to Vassyana's comments I have pared down the critical sources list. I have seen this kind of list on other articles, but that does not make it policy. I accept Vassyana's observations. As to Vassyana's comments about coming to a consensus regarding which reference notes format the article will take, I defer to anyone else who feels qualified to address this. You don't need my "permission" but you may want to ask Virgil for his input / opinion. Also, I thoroughly agree with Vassyana's suggestion to divide the article into three sections. In fact, if you will look at my recent comments you will see I had already suggested the same thing. Not to boast, but I think I am pretty good at organizing materials since I have many years experience in doing this. I do not intend to bypass the community of editors in doing so. I will ask for your input and feedback. I think this reorganizing can be done without altering the substance of any existing content or adding any new content. I am quite pleased with the third opinion. If anyone has any further questions for Vassyana, this would be the time to ask. I am excited at the prospect of going forward. We are currently only rated as a start-class article (just one level above a stub). I think if we follow Vassyana's advice for improving the article we can move it up the scale a bit. Will3935 13:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will3935 you are completely out of control. You came in here guns blazing and are doing so far a hatchet job on this entry (as far as I can read and see). Please chill out and cooperate with other editors. -- Frank Thomas 14:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will3935, as I have been reading through the history of discussions here you have made references to your credentials several times apparently in an effort to win an argument and silent cries of protests regarding your changes. Per Jimbo Wales' recent directions and to quote him,
Therefore, would you please provide the rest of us with your real identity, your credentials and perhaps give us some more details about who you are and why you think you are superior to the rest of contributors and find it necessary to flash your credentials here while hiding behind a wall of anonymity. Thank you in advance! Hopefully this will help us all create a better entry for the entire community! -- Frank Thomas 15:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we have made great progress hammered out in the good old give and take of Wikipedia compromise. Good editing. The main problem that remains, as I see it, is the article is more than ever in need of organizing. Before I make any edits to this effect I would like to open the floor for discussion as to how we can best organize this material. Will3935 16:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This is what I'd suggest for everyone. This is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree and take it with some grains of salt. But, I certainly don't think it would hurt anyone. Cheers!! Vassyana 16:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will3935, what the hell dude, now you are deleting my comments? Can you gag me with a spoon too? Please stop removing my comments here...that is absolutely idiotic! Here again is my previous comment removed by you:
I find it fascinating that as soon as someone points out your blatant abuse here you suddenly want to "discuss the article now" and ignore the points raised earlier. So far YOU are the one initiating personal attacks here. Since you love quotes from people, let me remind you all the ways in which you attacked me for no reason:
How do all these quotes refresh your mind so far? Who is attacking who? -- Virgil Vaduva 17:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Virgil Vaduva 18:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia was experiencing some brief server problems. I ran into them as well. Edit histories were weird, recent edits vanished, etc. Please assume good faith. Vassyana 18:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will I am nowhere near agreement with your changes. Major problems need to be fixed first, such as those false statements presented without any quotations or references:
1. McLaren does not believe in objective truth.
2. McLaren does not believe homosexuality is wrong (my quote says the opposite)
3. Replacing "critical" with "criticism" why not call a spade a spade?
Remove references to those false statements or provide exact quotations otherwise I cannot endorse your changes. -- Frank Thomas 19:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the specifics. I gotta go for now, but I will definitely consider your objections and respond. You may be right. Brief response for now:
1)That is difficult to discuss in one sentence. Will talk at length later.
2) You seem to miss the "if" clause in your quote. I have never asserted that McLaren believes homosexuality is not wrong. He has however repeatedly said that we really can't know with certainty that it is wrong. I can suppy citations.
3)I have no problem with whatever terminology pleases you and will defer to your preferences.
Thanks. I'll get back to you. Will3935 19:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Virgil you are quite right that I should not have spoken that way. Forgive me. I've been having various health problems that tend to make me a little cranky but that is no excuse. I should just shut my mouth when I feel bad. It was embarassing to see my quotes and I appreciate the work you did to reproduce them. Oh yeah, as to removing the quotes, I think if I had done so it would have left an edit trail discernible in my contributions -- at least I think so. Anyway, I believe you will find me vindicated there. Thanks to everyone for ending this round of discussion on a positive note. Will3935 19:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it best to address the issues involved one at a time. First, I find us quite close on the McLaren / homosexual question, Frank. Therefore I think it is the best place for us to start since I believe we can produce something we can both be happy with (I know I end sentences with prepositions at times -- in informal conversation we all do).
1) We both agree that McLaren does not say he approves of homosexuality. To my knowledge, he has never said any such thing and any accusation that he has should be thoroughly documented.
2)It is interesting that both of the quotes we offered were from the same paragraph! Thus they are complementary and not mutually exclusive. Below is the larger quote
3) We both approve of McLaren's appeal to all of us to treat homosexuals kindly. Personally I support him completely on this as I am persuaded most Evangelicals do (yes, I realize there are some imprudent and mean-spirited Christian responsed to homosexuals [as opposed to homosexuality] but they are in a minority).
4)The point of contention seems to be whether McLaren has taken a dogmatic view on the issue of homosexuality. From reading the article from which the above quote is taken as well as from reading other works by McLaren, I am persuaded that McLaren does not pontificate on the issue either way. If you can produce a quotation in which McLaren pontificates that homosexuality is wrong I will stand corrected.
5)Thus it seems to me that the only real difficulty for us in coming to a consensus is semantics and tone and these should be easy to overcome. I will do some thoughtful reflection on how to best represent McLaren without sounding POV.
6) I'm working on a project that has me busy at the moment (not boasting about anything -- it could be cleaning the toilets in my home [though I am glad it is not]). Thus, it may be a little while before I get back to you.
It seems to me we are quite close on this one and thus it represents a good place to start. I promise to be senstitive to your concerns. Will3935 00:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
While of course the current version is m:The Wrong Version, would y'all please discuss this here; the page history would seem to require blocking everyone for three months for 3RR alone. I'm not going to look into that, but please hash out everything here first. Thank you. -- Avi 06:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It may not be different, but, unfortunately, now y'all have to, because the article is locked (temporarily) :( -- Avi 14:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to add this page to my Watchlist as it does fall under my hyperbolic claim to research all religious movements ;) And who doesn't like to watch a fight? No but seriously, I'd be willing to contribute, once it's unprotected. Wjhonson 06:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I have come to agree that the Driscoll quote does not belong due to undue weight and relevance. Good point, Virgil. Only problem is we left in the article a small section that was designed to follow it:
It makes a fine point but it is not worded to fit seemlessly into the surrounding verbal landscape. I propose that we either reword it or delete it when the block is removed. Any thoughts? Will3935 06:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought we all agreed to not edit this article for at least 24 hours. You just made a substantial change despite the direction to not make changes and not disregard this agreement. This is yet another example of disregard of what other people think and other opinions. At least now that the article is locked, we know you can't rape it anymore. Thanks to the admins for intervention! -- Virgil Vaduva 12:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Wjhonson has propose we go forward with the article. I believe he has the right spirit. Perhaps we can all agree that going forward is a good idea. The lock is a good time for us to be sure we have some consensus on what we all think. This will prevent insensitive oafs like me from trampling all over everyone's sensitivities. That was quite wrong of me and it is good for us all to be able to meet here on the discussion page in order to map out future improvements. I would like to see this article improved and I most heartily welcom Wjhonson, Virgil, and all interested parties to contribute. We can still make Wikipedia proud. Since we have some time I suggest we all take some of it to think through the organization of the article. We need not rush any discussion since we can't do anything at the moment. I propose we think through our proposed improvements and come back in time to discuss them. I think that by so doing we can have a consensus in place by the time the article is accessible once again. Will3935 13:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
In the light of the above I propose starting the future conversation, not with any controversial issues, but with matters of structure and organization. If any one has other ideas now is the right time to discuss those ideas. I favor anything we can get some consesus on as the starting point for future "colloboration" (my embarassing spelling typo I repeated twice in one comment!) Will3935 14:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I additionally propose that the last edit I made before the block be reverted once the block is removed. I did not know of the agreeement Vassanya and Virgil had, so this edit (which is a trivial one anyway) violated an agreement I should have known about. I apologize for my ignorance and pledge to ammend for it by reverting my own edit once the block is finished. Then we can discuss the merits of this small edit. Will3935 13:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I reverted my last edit per my proposal. As I said, we can now discuss the merits of this little edit. I believe it should be seen as uncontroversial and helpful, as all it does is give a fuller context to an existing quote. The existing quote is an "if" clause in the midst of the larger quote. Taken out of context it seems unclear and ambiguous. The fuller context reveals the clear meaning of McLaren and clarifying his intent is what an encyclopedia article should do in an npov manner. By the way W (can I call you that for short?) I am looking into what organization may canonize you as a saint. The Catholics said you weren't even dead yet and wouldn't entertain my nomination. I'll put in a request with my cat since he thinks he's God. That's higher than the pope anyway. I'll let you know what my cat says. Will3935 19:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks like you are putting your own article as a link to this one. It may well have merits (haven't read it yet) and we do value your input, but I believe in this case linking your own article to another in Wikipedia does violate the policy against self-promotion. The only exceptions seem to be that a notable expert may cite him or herself and even link one of their works to a Wikipedia article. This doesn't exclude your work from being linked here if other editors favor its inclusion. If you have questions about the policy you may want to consult an admin who can cite all of the relevant passages from the manual. Please do not misinterpret my comments here as any kind of dislike for your input. Its just that in the light of recent history I think it best that we procede according to policies. I'll leave the article linked for the time being to give you an opportunity to confirm what I have said and to delete it. You may want to place the article up for discussion here at that time and see if other editors see fit to link it. Again, speaking for myself I value your input and do not by any means wish to make you shy about participating in the future. Will3935 05:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There are at least a couple of dates that are wikified in the article without sufficient warrant. This is not a matter of accuracy or grammar but of style. It seems over the top and such wikification is not practiced elsewhere in Wikipedia without some special justification. Thus I believe it detracts slightly from the quality of the article. I raised this issue some time back and no one has expressed a reason for keeping these dates wikified. I've pasted one editor's comments below:
Consequently, I will undo such wikifications.
Will3935
10:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I propose to add the word "postfoundational" after the word "postmodern" on line 17. McLaren frequently refers to his postfoundationalism and frequently speaks critically of the "bombproof certainty" he asserts foundationalism requires. If anyone would like citations to this effect I can provide them. I don't consider this a controversial proposal so if no objects after a week or so I will add the word "postfoundational" to line 17. I do not think it best to elaborate on its meaning here. That would take a whole article and Wikipedia has decent articles on foundationalism and postfoundationalism already here and here that we can link to in the text. Will3935 11:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the article be organized into five sub-headings as follows:
I) Biography
II) Theology
III) Ministry
IV) Controversy
V) Conclusion
This fivefold division would somewhat overwhelm the article as it now stands. However, the article now stands as a start class article. It needs further development and I propose giving it the above skeleton to accomodate future growth in an organized way. If no one questions or objects to such a structure in the next two to three weeks I will begin to work on organizing the article accordingly. I believe this is an important step toward raising the status of the article. Will3935 16:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we at least see his face? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.99.186 ( talk) 22:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
One thing that needs to be settled is the complete unsuitability of apprising.org links and/or information as source material.
1) It is a blog. This, in and of itself, is reason enough for it to not be a source. Per Wikipedia:BLP#Reliable_sources
Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (emphasis mine)
2) Apprising is poorly sourced Apprising.org is a blog for Apprising "Ministries" (sic), a one-man show run by Ken Silva, the "pastor" of a church of 5 people in rural New Hampshire. It has been documented that more than two thirds of his "research" is simply self-referential links to his own sites, and that the remaining third of his "research" is to sites he contributes to or other blogs [3].
3) Material from the apprising site in unhinged. He has claimed that God raised him up to bring down men like Erwin McManus and Rob Bell, and if you pick out articles at random from his site, like this one [4] it becomes completely apparent that this site is not of the quality required for a W:V verifiable source.
Per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29
Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer;
In the Critical Links section, this applies to the other blogs, as well, which I will remove as violations of Wikipedia:BLP#Reliable_sources and W:V. Criticism from reliable sources is certainly applicable, but blogs do not meet the standards set forth by Wikipedia.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 15:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not an expert, by any means, on McLaren. However, it appears that a number of the cited items in this section are blog references, which need to be removed per W:BLP, W:V and W:NOR policies (among others). Additionally, it seems that much of this section is contrary to w:BLP limitations on criticism and Wikipedia:Coatrack. Some cleanup is definitely in order.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 15:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the statement about D.A. Carson "being an even tempered individual" (paraphrase). These statements are conjecture and not pertinent to the page. Additionally statements as these are not scholarly and should not be included. I have however left the quote from the book by D.A. Carson. It is my belief that this is an appropiate critique.
I understand there's some sharp disagreement with this article. In the future, it might be worth considering that the Controversy section be renamed and/or appropriate material placed in other areas. Articles on certain people with these types of sections invite people to find and insert criticisms. I've placed a note in the controversy section. A lot of the current material is not well cited. Evangelical leaders are always and continually criticizing each other. I'm not sure what's notable or new about that. Basileias ( talk) 04:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be any room for Christ in McLaren's Christianity. 71.76.193.38 ( talk) 05:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Brian McLaren/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have deleted a reference to a remark that Brian McLaren voted for John Kerry in the 2004 election. An article was cited that did not mention this fact. Normally I would have put a "citation needed" tag, but the Wiki standard for biographies of living persons required I delete it. If there is another source that shows that BMcL voted for Kerry I would be interested in reading it. |
Last edited at 17:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 10:17, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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There was a different article on Brian McLaren at Brian Mclaren, which I have redirected to here. The content of this article can be seen here. There may be some info on this alternate page that could be integrated into this article. Proto|| type 11:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
FYI - the critics section is turning into a spam fest. The purpose of the article should be to shed more light on the person/topic, not to advertise a miriad of critics. -- Virgil Vaduva 04:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The Emergent enthusiast Virgil Vaduva continues to censor my article The Secret Message of Brian McLaren. He calls the article "spam." It is not spam in any sense of the word. It is a factual and thoroughly sourced critique of McLaren's teachings. The article portrays McLaren in an honest light. This is something that Vaduva is thus far unwilling to allow. So much for Emergent "toleration" and "inclusiveness." -- Dave Green :)
The attempt has been made, as the entry by Virgil Vaduva shows, to silence any view contrary to his view on the information provided in this article. The censorship demonstrated by his removal of any critical references is against the very nature of Wikipedia and is more akin to totalitarianism. --
If anyone has a problem with the critics links removed please speak up - most of the articles linked were to nonsensical obscure websites. I left one article linked to Christianity Today, which is written by the prominent Chuck Colson. Again, please beware of the Wikipedia rules before you add outside links which could be classified as spam. The main purpose of any Wiki entry is to provide information on a particular topic, not to flood the article with links to obscure critics and advertise such articles. -- Virgil Vaduva 04:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I recognize the pattern here. Everyone is becoming overly sensitive to any changes made to the article because of past hostilities. Virgil, if you know of someone skilled in English try running the issues involved past them. I'm an ex-English teacher who has had several works published but you may question my objectivity (oops, objective is a modern term -- just kidding Virgil). Please thoughtfully consider the content and style of my edits. I believe you will see they improve the quality and credibility of the article you are fond of. Poor writing detracts from credibility. As written, it sounded like a college sophomore wrote it (sorry all of you editors, but it is true -- see my piece titled "Before You Contribute" on my userpage). The article still needs much improvement, but the changes I made are at least a start to getting a credible, well-written article on McLaren in Wikipedia, and isn't that what we want? We have time to hammer out a thoughtful, first-rate article if you guys would like to colloborate. Will3935 01:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
For someone who interviewed McLaren you seem to be suprisingly ignorant of his views. Stating factually what he has gone on public record as believing is in no way inflammatory. It sounds like you are personally vested in this article and are so emotional you have lost some of your objectivity (there I go again with that modern term -- just kidding again). I will try to compromise with you, but you must know that repeated blanket reverts can get you blocked. I'll be around for a long time. Let's work together in a spirit of give and take to create an article that is accurate and unbiased. That may not be how things are done on a personal blog, but Wikipedia is, of course, neutral territory. We will have plenty of time for me to thoroughly document any edits I make. Please respect my right as a Wikipedian to make them. If you think I have not sufficiently documented a claim you can ask for a citation in the body of the text. That is how things are done in Wikipedia and I am sure we will get along fine as we work together. I will be most happy to document everything I say from McLaren's own works. I have read his works and am continuing to research him. A Christian publisher has asked me to write a book about postmodernism and the Church. I don't say this to brag, but to illustrate my concern with your apparent lack of knowledge of McLaren. True, he speaks out of both sides of the mouth at times but he nowhere denies being postmodern and I'm sure he would not deny that others have considered him liberal. That is a fact that responsable Wikipedians cannot censor. Censorship of the facts does not belong in an encyclopedia. Others have criticized him and it is our responsibility to give both sides of the story. This is not a McLaren authorised biography, it is a neutral reference work. Anyway, I look forward to a long and prosperous collaboration. I think it will work. Again, I suggest all of the editors let their emotions calm a little. It seems some of you have hair triggers at this time. I'll get back to you soon, Virgil. I'll bet you're not as bad as those other editors think you are and I'll bet they are not as bad as you may think. Perhaps I can be a peacemaker here. We will all have to give and take. Will3935 04:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The number of critical links is getting larger than the number of references....again it seems like people are using this article for publicity to their anti-McLaren sites and pages. I suggest mainstream critics like Carson, MacArthur and Colson should definitely remain; there are un-linked books with no ISBNs by people I never heard of. I will remove them until someone provides better references. -- Virgil Vaduva 23:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Virgil feels if he has not heard of a book that makes the book insignificant. It seems to me it just shows how poorly read Virgil is and how he has not bothered to read critiques of McLaren. That is why you need us Virgil -- to help you in your blind spots (yes, apparently Virgil is like the rest of us in that he does not know everything). Also, we cannot help it if you are not familiar with epistemology and other crucial issues. Your ignorance should not limit the scope of this article. Furthermore, it would be nice if you would act more mature and quit picking fights. Can we at least try to act civil even if we disagree? Seriously, man. Even if you dislike others' edits they have a right to contribute (Virgil Vaduva does not own Wikipedia). If you dislike our edits try talking to us like grown ups do. You only hurt your own credibility and persuasiveness by going postal all the time. Try just talking in a mature fashion. I have had two emergent friends who did so and it was great. I'll bet you can do it if you try. Even if you feel a tantrum coming on just try to act normal. See what it does for you! Will3935 03:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Can any of the editors contributing to this article explain why "1980's" is wikified in it? I think that seems a little over the top and thus takes away from the scholarly tone of the article. Can someone give a good reason for keeping it? Will3935 05:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the article might profit from further development of its structure. There seems to be ony one section (biography). Perhaps this should be further developed into sections titled "biography," "theology," "controversy," and "bibliography." Anyone have any thoughts of their own about structure? Will3935 06:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have asked for a third opinion from administrators in an effort to resolve the editing conflict between Virgil and I. This is not an accusation against anyone; it is simply a request for help that we might make this article live up to its potential. In the meantime, I propose a moratorium on further mainspace edits (except for minor, punctuation corrections) while we await the third opinion and see if that helps us. During such a moratorium we could discuss proposed additions, corrections etc. It seems a good idea to me anyway if others will agree to it (it will give us a chance to colloborate). Will3935 08:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Immediately upon visiting the article, I noticed two things about the references. First is a bibliography section that is not cited in-text. If that format is to be retained, I would recommend citing them directly in the article using the Harvard style. Also, critical references and newspaper articles should be combined with the bibliography, perhaps as a references section. The seperate critical references, along with the sheer number, is troubling to me and raises concerns relevent to WP:UNDUE. I would recommend all active editors take a good look over WP:CITE and work out a consensus about which reference/notes format the article will use to combine and cite the references appropriately. Another thing to look at would be paring down the number of sources by removing redundant sources. These do not need to be entirely removed from the article if that is undesirable, as a further reading section can be easily created. I'd also suggest that his biographical details, his views and his critics' views all be under seperate sections. WP:MOSBIO, WP:GTL and WP:BETTER may all be useful references for improving this article. I hope this helps. Feel free to respond with any questions or comments. Vassyana 12:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
In response to Vassyana's comments I have pared down the critical sources list. I have seen this kind of list on other articles, but that does not make it policy. I accept Vassyana's observations. As to Vassyana's comments about coming to a consensus regarding which reference notes format the article will take, I defer to anyone else who feels qualified to address this. You don't need my "permission" but you may want to ask Virgil for his input / opinion. Also, I thoroughly agree with Vassyana's suggestion to divide the article into three sections. In fact, if you will look at my recent comments you will see I had already suggested the same thing. Not to boast, but I think I am pretty good at organizing materials since I have many years experience in doing this. I do not intend to bypass the community of editors in doing so. I will ask for your input and feedback. I think this reorganizing can be done without altering the substance of any existing content or adding any new content. I am quite pleased with the third opinion. If anyone has any further questions for Vassyana, this would be the time to ask. I am excited at the prospect of going forward. We are currently only rated as a start-class article (just one level above a stub). I think if we follow Vassyana's advice for improving the article we can move it up the scale a bit. Will3935 13:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will3935 you are completely out of control. You came in here guns blazing and are doing so far a hatchet job on this entry (as far as I can read and see). Please chill out and cooperate with other editors. -- Frank Thomas 14:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will3935, as I have been reading through the history of discussions here you have made references to your credentials several times apparently in an effort to win an argument and silent cries of protests regarding your changes. Per Jimbo Wales' recent directions and to quote him,
Therefore, would you please provide the rest of us with your real identity, your credentials and perhaps give us some more details about who you are and why you think you are superior to the rest of contributors and find it necessary to flash your credentials here while hiding behind a wall of anonymity. Thank you in advance! Hopefully this will help us all create a better entry for the entire community! -- Frank Thomas 15:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we have made great progress hammered out in the good old give and take of Wikipedia compromise. Good editing. The main problem that remains, as I see it, is the article is more than ever in need of organizing. Before I make any edits to this effect I would like to open the floor for discussion as to how we can best organize this material. Will3935 16:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This is what I'd suggest for everyone. This is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree and take it with some grains of salt. But, I certainly don't think it would hurt anyone. Cheers!! Vassyana 16:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will3935, what the hell dude, now you are deleting my comments? Can you gag me with a spoon too? Please stop removing my comments here...that is absolutely idiotic! Here again is my previous comment removed by you:
I find it fascinating that as soon as someone points out your blatant abuse here you suddenly want to "discuss the article now" and ignore the points raised earlier. So far YOU are the one initiating personal attacks here. Since you love quotes from people, let me remind you all the ways in which you attacked me for no reason:
How do all these quotes refresh your mind so far? Who is attacking who? -- Virgil Vaduva 17:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Virgil Vaduva 18:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia was experiencing some brief server problems. I ran into them as well. Edit histories were weird, recent edits vanished, etc. Please assume good faith. Vassyana 18:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Will I am nowhere near agreement with your changes. Major problems need to be fixed first, such as those false statements presented without any quotations or references:
1. McLaren does not believe in objective truth.
2. McLaren does not believe homosexuality is wrong (my quote says the opposite)
3. Replacing "critical" with "criticism" why not call a spade a spade?
Remove references to those false statements or provide exact quotations otherwise I cannot endorse your changes. -- Frank Thomas 19:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the specifics. I gotta go for now, but I will definitely consider your objections and respond. You may be right. Brief response for now:
1)That is difficult to discuss in one sentence. Will talk at length later.
2) You seem to miss the "if" clause in your quote. I have never asserted that McLaren believes homosexuality is not wrong. He has however repeatedly said that we really can't know with certainty that it is wrong. I can suppy citations.
3)I have no problem with whatever terminology pleases you and will defer to your preferences.
Thanks. I'll get back to you. Will3935 19:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Virgil you are quite right that I should not have spoken that way. Forgive me. I've been having various health problems that tend to make me a little cranky but that is no excuse. I should just shut my mouth when I feel bad. It was embarassing to see my quotes and I appreciate the work you did to reproduce them. Oh yeah, as to removing the quotes, I think if I had done so it would have left an edit trail discernible in my contributions -- at least I think so. Anyway, I believe you will find me vindicated there. Thanks to everyone for ending this round of discussion on a positive note. Will3935 19:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it best to address the issues involved one at a time. First, I find us quite close on the McLaren / homosexual question, Frank. Therefore I think it is the best place for us to start since I believe we can produce something we can both be happy with (I know I end sentences with prepositions at times -- in informal conversation we all do).
1) We both agree that McLaren does not say he approves of homosexuality. To my knowledge, he has never said any such thing and any accusation that he has should be thoroughly documented.
2)It is interesting that both of the quotes we offered were from the same paragraph! Thus they are complementary and not mutually exclusive. Below is the larger quote
3) We both approve of McLaren's appeal to all of us to treat homosexuals kindly. Personally I support him completely on this as I am persuaded most Evangelicals do (yes, I realize there are some imprudent and mean-spirited Christian responsed to homosexuals [as opposed to homosexuality] but they are in a minority).
4)The point of contention seems to be whether McLaren has taken a dogmatic view on the issue of homosexuality. From reading the article from which the above quote is taken as well as from reading other works by McLaren, I am persuaded that McLaren does not pontificate on the issue either way. If you can produce a quotation in which McLaren pontificates that homosexuality is wrong I will stand corrected.
5)Thus it seems to me that the only real difficulty for us in coming to a consensus is semantics and tone and these should be easy to overcome. I will do some thoughtful reflection on how to best represent McLaren without sounding POV.
6) I'm working on a project that has me busy at the moment (not boasting about anything -- it could be cleaning the toilets in my home [though I am glad it is not]). Thus, it may be a little while before I get back to you.
It seems to me we are quite close on this one and thus it represents a good place to start. I promise to be senstitive to your concerns. Will3935 00:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
While of course the current version is m:The Wrong Version, would y'all please discuss this here; the page history would seem to require blocking everyone for three months for 3RR alone. I'm not going to look into that, but please hash out everything here first. Thank you. -- Avi 06:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It may not be different, but, unfortunately, now y'all have to, because the article is locked (temporarily) :( -- Avi 14:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to add this page to my Watchlist as it does fall under my hyperbolic claim to research all religious movements ;) And who doesn't like to watch a fight? No but seriously, I'd be willing to contribute, once it's unprotected. Wjhonson 06:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I have come to agree that the Driscoll quote does not belong due to undue weight and relevance. Good point, Virgil. Only problem is we left in the article a small section that was designed to follow it:
It makes a fine point but it is not worded to fit seemlessly into the surrounding verbal landscape. I propose that we either reword it or delete it when the block is removed. Any thoughts? Will3935 06:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought we all agreed to not edit this article for at least 24 hours. You just made a substantial change despite the direction to not make changes and not disregard this agreement. This is yet another example of disregard of what other people think and other opinions. At least now that the article is locked, we know you can't rape it anymore. Thanks to the admins for intervention! -- Virgil Vaduva 12:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Wjhonson has propose we go forward with the article. I believe he has the right spirit. Perhaps we can all agree that going forward is a good idea. The lock is a good time for us to be sure we have some consensus on what we all think. This will prevent insensitive oafs like me from trampling all over everyone's sensitivities. That was quite wrong of me and it is good for us all to be able to meet here on the discussion page in order to map out future improvements. I would like to see this article improved and I most heartily welcom Wjhonson, Virgil, and all interested parties to contribute. We can still make Wikipedia proud. Since we have some time I suggest we all take some of it to think through the organization of the article. We need not rush any discussion since we can't do anything at the moment. I propose we think through our proposed improvements and come back in time to discuss them. I think that by so doing we can have a consensus in place by the time the article is accessible once again. Will3935 13:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
In the light of the above I propose starting the future conversation, not with any controversial issues, but with matters of structure and organization. If any one has other ideas now is the right time to discuss those ideas. I favor anything we can get some consesus on as the starting point for future "colloboration" (my embarassing spelling typo I repeated twice in one comment!) Will3935 14:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I additionally propose that the last edit I made before the block be reverted once the block is removed. I did not know of the agreeement Vassanya and Virgil had, so this edit (which is a trivial one anyway) violated an agreement I should have known about. I apologize for my ignorance and pledge to ammend for it by reverting my own edit once the block is finished. Then we can discuss the merits of this small edit. Will3935 13:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I reverted my last edit per my proposal. As I said, we can now discuss the merits of this little edit. I believe it should be seen as uncontroversial and helpful, as all it does is give a fuller context to an existing quote. The existing quote is an "if" clause in the midst of the larger quote. Taken out of context it seems unclear and ambiguous. The fuller context reveals the clear meaning of McLaren and clarifying his intent is what an encyclopedia article should do in an npov manner. By the way W (can I call you that for short?) I am looking into what organization may canonize you as a saint. The Catholics said you weren't even dead yet and wouldn't entertain my nomination. I'll put in a request with my cat since he thinks he's God. That's higher than the pope anyway. I'll let you know what my cat says. Will3935 19:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks like you are putting your own article as a link to this one. It may well have merits (haven't read it yet) and we do value your input, but I believe in this case linking your own article to another in Wikipedia does violate the policy against self-promotion. The only exceptions seem to be that a notable expert may cite him or herself and even link one of their works to a Wikipedia article. This doesn't exclude your work from being linked here if other editors favor its inclusion. If you have questions about the policy you may want to consult an admin who can cite all of the relevant passages from the manual. Please do not misinterpret my comments here as any kind of dislike for your input. Its just that in the light of recent history I think it best that we procede according to policies. I'll leave the article linked for the time being to give you an opportunity to confirm what I have said and to delete it. You may want to place the article up for discussion here at that time and see if other editors see fit to link it. Again, speaking for myself I value your input and do not by any means wish to make you shy about participating in the future. Will3935 05:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
There are at least a couple of dates that are wikified in the article without sufficient warrant. This is not a matter of accuracy or grammar but of style. It seems over the top and such wikification is not practiced elsewhere in Wikipedia without some special justification. Thus I believe it detracts slightly from the quality of the article. I raised this issue some time back and no one has expressed a reason for keeping these dates wikified. I've pasted one editor's comments below:
Consequently, I will undo such wikifications.
Will3935
10:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I propose to add the word "postfoundational" after the word "postmodern" on line 17. McLaren frequently refers to his postfoundationalism and frequently speaks critically of the "bombproof certainty" he asserts foundationalism requires. If anyone would like citations to this effect I can provide them. I don't consider this a controversial proposal so if no objects after a week or so I will add the word "postfoundational" to line 17. I do not think it best to elaborate on its meaning here. That would take a whole article and Wikipedia has decent articles on foundationalism and postfoundationalism already here and here that we can link to in the text. Will3935 11:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the article be organized into five sub-headings as follows:
I) Biography
II) Theology
III) Ministry
IV) Controversy
V) Conclusion
This fivefold division would somewhat overwhelm the article as it now stands. However, the article now stands as a start class article. It needs further development and I propose giving it the above skeleton to accomodate future growth in an organized way. If no one questions or objects to such a structure in the next two to three weeks I will begin to work on organizing the article accordingly. I believe this is an important step toward raising the status of the article. Will3935 16:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we at least see his face? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.99.186 ( talk) 22:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
One thing that needs to be settled is the complete unsuitability of apprising.org links and/or information as source material.
1) It is a blog. This, in and of itself, is reason enough for it to not be a source. Per Wikipedia:BLP#Reliable_sources
Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (emphasis mine)
2) Apprising is poorly sourced Apprising.org is a blog for Apprising "Ministries" (sic), a one-man show run by Ken Silva, the "pastor" of a church of 5 people in rural New Hampshire. It has been documented that more than two thirds of his "research" is simply self-referential links to his own sites, and that the remaining third of his "research" is to sites he contributes to or other blogs [3].
3) Material from the apprising site in unhinged. He has claimed that God raised him up to bring down men like Erwin McManus and Rob Bell, and if you pick out articles at random from his site, like this one [4] it becomes completely apparent that this site is not of the quality required for a W:V verifiable source.
Per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29
Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer;
In the Critical Links section, this applies to the other blogs, as well, which I will remove as violations of Wikipedia:BLP#Reliable_sources and W:V. Criticism from reliable sources is certainly applicable, but blogs do not meet the standards set forth by Wikipedia.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 15:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not an expert, by any means, on McLaren. However, it appears that a number of the cited items in this section are blog references, which need to be removed per W:BLP, W:V and W:NOR policies (among others). Additionally, it seems that much of this section is contrary to w:BLP limitations on criticism and Wikipedia:Coatrack. Some cleanup is definitely in order.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 15:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the statement about D.A. Carson "being an even tempered individual" (paraphrase). These statements are conjecture and not pertinent to the page. Additionally statements as these are not scholarly and should not be included. I have however left the quote from the book by D.A. Carson. It is my belief that this is an appropiate critique.
I understand there's some sharp disagreement with this article. In the future, it might be worth considering that the Controversy section be renamed and/or appropriate material placed in other areas. Articles on certain people with these types of sections invite people to find and insert criticisms. I've placed a note in the controversy section. A lot of the current material is not well cited. Evangelical leaders are always and continually criticizing each other. I'm not sure what's notable or new about that. Basileias ( talk) 04:52, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be any room for Christ in McLaren's Christianity. 71.76.193.38 ( talk) 05:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Brian McLaren/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have deleted a reference to a remark that Brian McLaren voted for John Kerry in the 2004 election. An article was cited that did not mention this fact. Normally I would have put a "citation needed" tag, but the Wiki standard for biographies of living persons required I delete it. If there is another source that shows that BMcL voted for Kerry I would be interested in reading it. |
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