This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
could be "selected works" and "complete works" is the same?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.250.219 ( talk) 22:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
(The aim of these questions is to cause the reader to think critically about the various aspects of Ferneyhough's (and other composer's) music. Hopefully Ferneyhough will not take offense.)
I interviewed Ferneyhough by mail:
Despite the fact that some excerpts from "The Collected Writings of Brian Ferneyhough" and "Ferneyhough on Ferneyhough" are available online (as they are assigned readings in most schools of composition), I hesitate to include direct links as the publications are most certainly "not free" as sources.
If any senior members of Wikipedia could possibly shed light on whether or not links to "technically illegal but widespread enough in academia for anyone to actually sue" pdfs of such publications ought to be avoided, as the current Wikipedia:SOURCES#Reliable_sources article does very little to remedy my confusion. If, perchance, I have missed the source of such information, I humbly apologize in advance. (Naturally, I only ask as I believe that some of this reading could benefit any visitor to this page.) MarioColbert ( talk) 17:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
For those who did not know this...
A favourite pastime of some people seems to be... taking passages from Ferneyhough's writings (primarily from The Collected Writings of Brian Ferneyhough) that they consider to be obfuscated, deceiving, obscure, insincere, confusing, unhelpful, incoherent academic-speak .... and providing them at Internet Quote pages.
Just stumbled across it. Brilliant. Just google Brian Ferneyhough Quotes and enjoy the incoherence!
Oh Ferneyhough... what insightful writing. Or is it rather... pseudo-intellectual posturing? I suppose that's his secret to keep, unless perhaps ... he's so convincing, that he's convinced even himself. ;) Easy tup ( talk) 01:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Just to respond to this, I am not sure what YOU are talking about. I dont think it is pseudo-intellectual posturing. I am afraid these quotes do actually make sense to me (and I am in no way a fan of Ferneyhough's music). If you are not willing to think something through or consider the kinds of conceptual modelling Ferneyhough uses to attempt to explain his processes then it matters little, they are clearly no use for you, that is fine but it does not necessarily mean that they mean nothing. Horatiu Radulescu is another composer who skirts the boundaries of obfusification, but again, what is behind the written or spoken thought material is not all that incoherent if you are willing to consider it for more than a moment. The material of the movement of sound is one of the most difficult of phenomena to describe, as are the processes of creation. What you are snorting at here is not 'academic speak' (there is plenty of that sort of nonsense where I could agree with you), maybe more an example of somebody stretching the boundaries between areas of thought/research/creativity. Calling him 'insincere' and 'deceiving' is ignorant,perhaps cruel, and certainly wrong (or perhaps you are just quoting a sequence of terms from a handy thesaurus web site, well done.) But if you want to criticise Ferneyhough's intellectualism, choosing to make an opera on Walter Benjamin with a libretto that includes such as the following would suffice for ridiculousness: Benjamin: Language as such, that is the text / That we interpret / And that interprets us Gershom Scholem: Are you ready to be the new Rashi / Raising commentary to new heights / So that the art of criticism / Becomes a sacred process / Releasing the sparks inside the words? Benjamin: Critique cannot confine itself to letters / But must also confront / That which animates the letters —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.228.232 ( talk) 12:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
On Ferneyhough's writing, you can find people using the following descriptions:
Additionally, check what Ferneyhough himself has to say on the matter (admitting that his texts seek to strategically disorientate):
QED
Easy tup (
talk) 07:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Am I alone in finding that... somewhat short of NPOV? Do we waive that particular policy in the case of "criticism" subheadings? Teme vorn 01:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Well... failing to present neutrality, would be if the article fails to mention that Ferneyhough is actually a highly controversial and often critically or even negatively regarded composer. Currently the only place that shows this (or rather: hints at it) is the "reviews" section. But I suppose you're right... it's heading could be changed to "criticism", or something similar. Easy tup ( talk) 00:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi! The quote of Naomi Cumming in the lead paragraph, is highly inappropriate. Reason: it is just Cumming's view; and furthermore - it is not even directly about Ferneyhough, but more of a speculation on the rationale of "such composers". Heck... "Ferneyhough" does not even appear on/near the page, from which the quote is taken. check. Hence removed. Easy tup ( talk) 07:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the section of Ferneyhough's quotes. It seems that they are intentionally taken out of context in an attempt to project an untrue and exaggerated image of him. This article has degenerated into such a poor state that I'd actually suggest a revert to an earlier version. If that isn't considered suitable, then I will attempt to undertake a rewrite, and reorganisation, of the article into a suitable format. My biggest concern is the reception section. In no way, shape, or form, can pasting a bunch of unrelated quotes from various forms of literature (with inconsistent citation styles!) be considered a section on reception. Some of them are plainly misinterpreted. The case of Peter Franklin is nearly certainly misunderstood. He is in my faculty, and I will be asking him to clarify. Furthermore, since when was reception interested in positive and negative comments? Jabbercat ( talk) 22:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I do regard this software as something important to my work. I don't, however, use it always in relationship to everything that happens in the piece, but I do tend to use it in terms of the rhythmic structure––how the size of a measure reacts to the sort of material that was placed in it. If-then procedures are very important. For instance, if you have a certain measure length, it can only be followed by one of three other measure lengths; the next measure reads that and decides one of two measure lengths. So, on the large-scale, you see a certain evolution of consistencies, of tendencies, but on the local scale, it's very much a sort of mechanistic procedure.<ref>[http://www.searchnewmusic.org/ferneyhough_interview.pdf An Interview with Brian Ferneyhough] by Felipe Ribeiro, James Correa, Catarina Domenici ([http://www.searchnewmusic.org/index5.html Search Journal for New Music and Culture; Summer 2009])</ref>
Oh, I don't like listening to my music, not even new pieces. Generally they sound pretty much like I expected them to sound, so it's what I wanted and that's it.<ref>''Brian Ferneyhough: Collected Writings''; edited by James Boros and Richard Toop; p. 271</ref>
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 01:27, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 2 external links on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:47, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 3 external links on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:11, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 10 external links on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:55, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified one external link on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://apps.appl.cuny.edu:83/F/?func=find-e&adjacent=N&find_scan_code=FIND_WRD&request=Bortz%2C+Braziela.&Search=+Search+&local_base=U-CUN01When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:59, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
could be "selected works" and "complete works" is the same?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.250.219 ( talk) 22:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
(The aim of these questions is to cause the reader to think critically about the various aspects of Ferneyhough's (and other composer's) music. Hopefully Ferneyhough will not take offense.)
I interviewed Ferneyhough by mail:
Despite the fact that some excerpts from "The Collected Writings of Brian Ferneyhough" and "Ferneyhough on Ferneyhough" are available online (as they are assigned readings in most schools of composition), I hesitate to include direct links as the publications are most certainly "not free" as sources.
If any senior members of Wikipedia could possibly shed light on whether or not links to "technically illegal but widespread enough in academia for anyone to actually sue" pdfs of such publications ought to be avoided, as the current Wikipedia:SOURCES#Reliable_sources article does very little to remedy my confusion. If, perchance, I have missed the source of such information, I humbly apologize in advance. (Naturally, I only ask as I believe that some of this reading could benefit any visitor to this page.) MarioColbert ( talk) 17:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
For those who did not know this...
A favourite pastime of some people seems to be... taking passages from Ferneyhough's writings (primarily from The Collected Writings of Brian Ferneyhough) that they consider to be obfuscated, deceiving, obscure, insincere, confusing, unhelpful, incoherent academic-speak .... and providing them at Internet Quote pages.
Just stumbled across it. Brilliant. Just google Brian Ferneyhough Quotes and enjoy the incoherence!
Oh Ferneyhough... what insightful writing. Or is it rather... pseudo-intellectual posturing? I suppose that's his secret to keep, unless perhaps ... he's so convincing, that he's convinced even himself. ;) Easy tup ( talk) 01:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Just to respond to this, I am not sure what YOU are talking about. I dont think it is pseudo-intellectual posturing. I am afraid these quotes do actually make sense to me (and I am in no way a fan of Ferneyhough's music). If you are not willing to think something through or consider the kinds of conceptual modelling Ferneyhough uses to attempt to explain his processes then it matters little, they are clearly no use for you, that is fine but it does not necessarily mean that they mean nothing. Horatiu Radulescu is another composer who skirts the boundaries of obfusification, but again, what is behind the written or spoken thought material is not all that incoherent if you are willing to consider it for more than a moment. The material of the movement of sound is one of the most difficult of phenomena to describe, as are the processes of creation. What you are snorting at here is not 'academic speak' (there is plenty of that sort of nonsense where I could agree with you), maybe more an example of somebody stretching the boundaries between areas of thought/research/creativity. Calling him 'insincere' and 'deceiving' is ignorant,perhaps cruel, and certainly wrong (or perhaps you are just quoting a sequence of terms from a handy thesaurus web site, well done.) But if you want to criticise Ferneyhough's intellectualism, choosing to make an opera on Walter Benjamin with a libretto that includes such as the following would suffice for ridiculousness: Benjamin: Language as such, that is the text / That we interpret / And that interprets us Gershom Scholem: Are you ready to be the new Rashi / Raising commentary to new heights / So that the art of criticism / Becomes a sacred process / Releasing the sparks inside the words? Benjamin: Critique cannot confine itself to letters / But must also confront / That which animates the letters —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.228.232 ( talk) 12:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
On Ferneyhough's writing, you can find people using the following descriptions:
Additionally, check what Ferneyhough himself has to say on the matter (admitting that his texts seek to strategically disorientate):
QED
Easy tup (
talk) 07:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Am I alone in finding that... somewhat short of NPOV? Do we waive that particular policy in the case of "criticism" subheadings? Teme vorn 01:43, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
Well... failing to present neutrality, would be if the article fails to mention that Ferneyhough is actually a highly controversial and often critically or even negatively regarded composer. Currently the only place that shows this (or rather: hints at it) is the "reviews" section. But I suppose you're right... it's heading could be changed to "criticism", or something similar. Easy tup ( talk) 00:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi! The quote of Naomi Cumming in the lead paragraph, is highly inappropriate. Reason: it is just Cumming's view; and furthermore - it is not even directly about Ferneyhough, but more of a speculation on the rationale of "such composers". Heck... "Ferneyhough" does not even appear on/near the page, from which the quote is taken. check. Hence removed. Easy tup ( talk) 07:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the section of Ferneyhough's quotes. It seems that they are intentionally taken out of context in an attempt to project an untrue and exaggerated image of him. This article has degenerated into such a poor state that I'd actually suggest a revert to an earlier version. If that isn't considered suitable, then I will attempt to undertake a rewrite, and reorganisation, of the article into a suitable format. My biggest concern is the reception section. In no way, shape, or form, can pasting a bunch of unrelated quotes from various forms of literature (with inconsistent citation styles!) be considered a section on reception. Some of them are plainly misinterpreted. The case of Peter Franklin is nearly certainly misunderstood. He is in my faculty, and I will be asking him to clarify. Furthermore, since when was reception interested in positive and negative comments? Jabbercat ( talk) 22:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I do regard this software as something important to my work. I don't, however, use it always in relationship to everything that happens in the piece, but I do tend to use it in terms of the rhythmic structure––how the size of a measure reacts to the sort of material that was placed in it. If-then procedures are very important. For instance, if you have a certain measure length, it can only be followed by one of three other measure lengths; the next measure reads that and decides one of two measure lengths. So, on the large-scale, you see a certain evolution of consistencies, of tendencies, but on the local scale, it's very much a sort of mechanistic procedure.<ref>[http://www.searchnewmusic.org/ferneyhough_interview.pdf An Interview with Brian Ferneyhough] by Felipe Ribeiro, James Correa, Catarina Domenici ([http://www.searchnewmusic.org/index5.html Search Journal for New Music and Culture; Summer 2009])</ref>
Oh, I don't like listening to my music, not even new pieces. Generally they sound pretty much like I expected them to sound, so it's what I wanted and that's it.<ref>''Brian Ferneyhough: Collected Writings''; edited by James Boros and Richard Toop; p. 271</ref>
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 01:27, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 2 external links on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:47, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 3 external links on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:11, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 10 external links on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:55, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified one external link on Brian Ferneyhough. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://apps.appl.cuny.edu:83/F/?func=find-e&adjacent=N&find_scan_code=FIND_WRD&request=Bortz%2C+Braziela.&Search=+Search+&local_base=U-CUN01When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:59, 29 November 2017 (UTC)