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Why is there no information on her about String breast implants? I know it was here before, but where did it go? (unsigned)
Ok. There's also a procedure in which saline is injected directly to give a temporary boost in size and perhaps firmness. This is probably a type of implant, however temporary, so I think we should briefly mention it here. Al 20:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm definitely talking about directly injecting saline into the breasts, as per this link. It's not popular and I couldn't quickly find a more reliable source.
As for how many types to mention, while I certainly don't want rare and unavailable types to dominate the article, a line or two max should be fine. Comprehensiveness is worth the small cost in space, I'd say. Al 02:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I deleted that - that was inadvertant. I meant only to delete the Inamed promotion on Inamed's 'bouncy breast implants' that had initially been added. MollyBloom 17:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I just wandered into this article and noticed something rather surprising: the images of ruptured and damaged implants are duplicated, while there are exactly zero images of female breasts, containing implants, from the outside - as in, the way they are intended to appear with functioning implants.
I don't personally have any way of acquiring copy-free images to upload in order to fix the second problem, but would anyone disagree with my removing the redundant copies of the implant-rupture images? Also, any editor who does have access to copy-free images of breasts containing implants, please upload them! Cheers, Kasreyn 05:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is information on ruptures and other problems scattered around amongst "Local Complications" and "Risks and Controversies" sections? Aren't "complications" just a kind of "risk"? All these should be relocated under the "Risks and Controversies" section. There also appears to be redundant material in several areas. The article seems to spend a great deal of time focusing on the effects of the failures and complications of these devices, and very little time focusing on the motivations of the women who chose to undergo such a procedure. If a Martian were to read this article, he would be left wondering, "why do Earthling women do this? It never said!" The continued popularity of the procedure surely indicates that there is something motivating women to do this. It would definitely be notable to cover it in this article, whatever it is. Other possible details which are not covered are customer satisfaction rates (can surveys be found?), information on effects on breastfeeding (if any?), and more detail on the history of the procedure (which skips past everything between 1865 and the 1940's!)
I don't really know who did what and I'm going to assume good faith on the part of every individual, but on the whole, the article seems to take a very one-sided approach to the issue. It goes into great detail on every negative aspect of implants, but scarcely breathes a word elsewhere. Kasreyn 06:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
As to 'why do earthlings do this' question, my answer would be because many plastic surgeons tell women implants are completely safe, and Dow has spent millions on studies insisting these are safe. Thousands of women who have had to have multiple surgeries, been disfigured and become ill know full well why women do this, and wish they never had. MollyBloom 14:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Molly, you've explained why your POV is so hostile to breast implants. Unfortunately, it is this very bias that is the problem. In reality, the vast majority of breast implant procedures are uneventful, if perhaps a bit tacky. If you want to make sure the article includes reliable sources that recommend removing ruptured implants, that's fine. However, if you want this article to make breast implants sound uniformly deadly, that's simply not acceptable. Al 04:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
There's a tag alterting editors to the fact that the article has gotten a bit large and needs branching. I was thinking that we could separate out the section on silicone implants into a fork. My rationale is that it's well-defined and represents a topic that is considerably more controversial and (due to recent actions to restore the legality of such implants) less stable. What do you think? Al 01:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
String implants are banned in the US, for anyone. This is not true for silicone implants, for which there is an adjunct study. If string implants are available elsewhere, please post here. Otherwise it does not belong here. And, are string implants very common, if they are available anywhere? MollyBloom 00:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. And it's not unreasonable to put saline implants in a prominent position, since they make up the overwhelming majority, followed by what's legal but less available, what's illegal and what's in development or related. Is that a reasonable order? Al 17:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so let's plan it out here.
Freely available: Saline -- Saline-filled implants are believed to be safer than silicone because rupture or leakage will only release salt water--not silicone gel--into the body. Consequently, FDA has allowed these implants to remain on the market without evidence of safety until 2000. On May 10, 2000, the FDA approved saline implants made by McGhan (now Inamed and soon to be Allerghan) and Mentor for augmentation in women 18 or older. They were approved for reconstructive use for women of all ages.
Limited availability: (This is from a plastic surgeon's website, and it is pretty neutral, which is refreshing)
(We need to discuss availability in NEUTRAL terms. I welcome other's input, but I ask that any editors please identify themselves, and add to, not delete others' suggestions. This is, after all, a discussion page)
Unavailable:
Pending: tissue
Please do not change what I have written here. This is my suggestion. We can get input from other editors, Rob. Your changing this on the DISCUSSION page is not honest. Write your own suggestion, but do not alter mine. This, by the way, mostly came from the website of BOARD CERTIFIED plastic surgeons. MollyBloom 23:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the direct saline injection. Perhaps we can get input from some MDs on this? I think that would be good. The rest sounds fine. I know there were some other implants like Hydrogel in the UK that were banned, but I don't know much about them. Do you think the whole section on silicone implants should be shortened - eg the 'generations'? MollyBloom 21:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Al, that sounds fine. Your thoughts on this are very good. It gives a broader perspective on breast implants, that an encyclopedic article should have. WE don't have to write more than a sentence or two on the ones that are not widely used, or are in development. But after thinking about it, I agree that it is important to include. MollyBloom 05:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A sentence or two should suffice. There still seems to be controversy on the Hydrogel, too, like silicone. The problem with hydrogel was lack of long term follow up; which ironically, is still the problem with silicone implants - the two US manufacturers only provided the FDA 2 and 3 years of 'core' data. The FDA acknowledged the adjunct studies were fatally flawed. Here are a couple links on Hydrogel. A 2002 plastic surgery article published in PubMed said they were fine (surprise surprise). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11832859&dopt=Abstract As with silicone implants, women began having serious problems with the Hydrogel, as this article mentions: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2203951,00.html They are no longer available in the UK. http://mhra.gov.uk/home/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=738 and the UK Times wrote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2203951,00.html
The IOM simply reviewed the studies that were done that were funded by Dow, Rob. There is a controversy on this issue, which is why the FDA has NOT approved silicone implants yet. There is no harm in adding an external link of a research NON-PROFIT organization. The consensus is to keep it. It stays. MollyBloom 18:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask others (NOT ROB) what they think about the non-profit link that I added. It offers a differing view, but it is academic, and it links to academic articles, as well. Dr. Zuckerman is a Harvard epidemiologist who should be linked to on this issue, as much as the plastic surgeons. I welcome others to view this website, and explain why it is not acceptable as a legitimate link. (I don't think others will.) MollyBloom 03:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that this fits within standards for an external link. Al 23:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
We need to discuss external links here. MollyBloom 23:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Since Droliver is insulting the website of the nonprofit organization that I am president of, I will respond. Our organization is not "known" to be biased, except perhaps by individuals who have never read the epidemiological studies that we have reviewed. I would be happy to debate, in civil dialogue and in specific detail, any information on our website. I am trained in epidemiology from Yale Medical School, directed a longitudinal research project at Harvard, and am currently a Fellow at the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania. The National Research Center for Women & Families is very concerned about the often-quoted poorly designed implant studies, virtually all of which are funded by implant makers and plastic surgeons. Our detailed criticisms of these biased studies are available on our website, and not a single author of any of those studies has ever complained about our criticisms. We usually rely on data from independent studies, such as those funded by the US government or the Canadian government. Summaries of those government studies are available on our website, as are links to those articles. In addition, we often quote the findings of industry-funded studies that have been analyzed by the FDA, since those findings are more accurate than the analyses conducted by the companies themselves. Unfortunately, those findings have never been published by the companies, apparently because they do not want to publicize their high complication rates. 216.164.59.38 01:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)Diana Zuckerman, PhD dz@center4research.org
Okay, Al. I dont have a problem with legitimate links. I do think they should be discussed here. We will leave all three. MollyBloom 18:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Now that the editorial moratorium seems to have run it's course with this entry, we are left with an article that's still unsatisfactory. At the time it was arrested, it had been freshly edited to aggressively represent a controversial POV on this topic. There is no hint of the mainstream data, reviews, and opinions of the professional bodies who work in the field. We are still left with deliberately pointed sections fiercly guarded from moderation by one said editor who has used this entry as a platform for political crusading on a percieved cover-up of the real-world consequences of these devices by the medical-industrial complex. Even well-documented historical aspects of development which should be pretty non-controversial have been distorted (ie. the bizarre deviation on the history of the saline implant section). It remains clear that when someone who
is not someone who can be collaborated with in a productive way. Outside of the technical aspects of the article, the bulk of this is such a jumble of dis-coherent & inacurate information that it begs to be scrapped. Droliver 22:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Every statement in there that I have added is supported by academic citations. You just have a problem with my raising anything negative about silicone implants. HEavens, you didn't even want to include the LOCAL complications, which are not even controversial. MollyBloom 06:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Nope. Fine with me. MollyBloom 15:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not going to dignify DrOliver's list of complaints against me, with my own list against him. It is unproductive. I have repeatedly ask that DrOliver be civil. I would like to see the focus on the article, and not on the person. I edit on a number of articles, apart from breast implants. I have not had such problem on any other articles I have edited. But on this, there have been all out wars. I would appreciate help with coming to a reasonable resolution. MollyBloom 05:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate offers to mediate. Please, someone, help. I also would so appreciate it if Dr. Laub or would come help with this. He said he would but has been absent.. I am not a medical doctor, but I do have a background in science and engineering, and law. I have researched this area extensively. I also know that one cannot cherry pick and choose only the positive or only the negative in an article..
The "mainstream" assessment should be included - it has to be. But when DrOliver did that he made it an advertisement. Then he became hostile. The encyclopedic article is not an advertisement. I would like to see a very factual main article, and then a split (soon) for the controversial areas. NOT a fork, but a split into a separate article, as David suggested,. He too pointed out there was genuine controversy, within the medical profession and scientific community. There are still many women becoming ill from local complications or what they perceive to be systemic complications. In short, this is not a situation like, for example, evolution. Science has definitively weighed in on evolution. (I hope I am not going to inflame here) But the anti-evolutionists argue for a biblical interpretation which is simply not scientific. Science has not definitely weighted in on breast implants, regardless of what Rob insists. As a plastic surgeon who performs breast implants, Rob is understandably enthusiastic about them. But a more tempered approach would be a wiser approach, as some other plastic surgeons have pointed out to me. Anyway, I would be happy to have someone act as mediator. MollyBloom 05:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
to benefits-vs.-risks, and not enough space to other aspects important to a reader who wants to learn about the subject matter. Kasreyn 22:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Oliver and I tried to edit initially at the same time. So I am going to repost the comment/question, and discuss the article improvement. We all need to be civil, and not disparage other users.
Aktornado, I agree with you on all counts. The article needs work, and it will be split into two articles. That was the consensus of all the editors who weighed in.
The main article should be very factual in the main section, including local complications, and maybe some of the things you mention. The Risk and Controversy section is predominantly about silicone implants, because the manufacturers have fought long and hard to get the FDA to approve silicone implants. As yet, the FDA has not, but is expected to rule one way or the other, probably this year.
I am not going to attack any editor. There has been far too much of that. The "Risks and Controversy" section is predominantly about silicone, and will be a separate article. I and others have hoped we could get new blood, so to speak, to help with the article. There has been bias both ways. You can judge the comment below and its tone, for yourself.
My hope is that we can obtain a good, solid factual article for breast implants. The other discussion will be a separate article. By the way, I am a scientist as well as a lawyer, and certainly am not anti-science. I am however well aware of the existing controversy that still exists within the medical community. I have a few letters or emails I from neurologists, rheumatologists and plastic surgeon , and certainly could scan and enter them, if there is serious question that there is still a debate. Moreover, the editor below blasted a Harvard and Yale epidemiologist and expert in this area who disagreed with him. Now. Let's not start another war. let's get new blood to help rewrite!
Why don't you help us rewrite the article? We need some 'new' perspective, from someone who is not overtly biased, one way or the other. Thanks!! ;-) 04:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, the consensus in a long debate on this subject (including other doctors weighing in) was to create a second article, because of the importance of the subject. Certainly not to sum up in a sentence. Please look at the tags and discussion for explanation of this. Thanks MollyBloom 04:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[User:Jgwlaw|MollyBloom]] 04:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
No fork - I agree with Molly - Silicone needs be kept within main topic, but the article is long and so a split half-way down ((a) what they are and (b) the possible risks which has generated noteworthy public controversy for both types) is sensible encyclopedia article writing. Whilst I don't think breast imlants are as important as perhaps heart surgery or hip replacements (by numbers undertaken or significance to myself as a General Practitioner), they are notable and the controversy over whether there is or is not chronic side-effects has been well aired in public. It is one of a number of topics in which general medical consensus, research evidence, vocal patient groups and regulatory authorities are not in accord and the article does need to observe on these issues (although of course WP is not the place to actually argue out debates).David Ruben Talk 17:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC). MollyBloom 07:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Per what Aktornado and others have said, there is a great deal on silicone implants, which considerably outweighs saline. The percentage of which is used more than the other doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since both are used. In fact, there are more restrictions on silicone than saline. Either way, it makes sense to not go into prolonged detail about the history of silicone implants. A short history should suffice, with the descriptioin of what they used to be (thin shell, liquid gel) and the efforts to make them less prone to rupture (different gel). Then one might mention in a sentence about the gummy bear. That is sufficient. The long dissertation on how each one differs is way beyond the scope of a WIki or encyclopoedia article.
I suggest continuing on the main article, recognizing Wikopedia is not a medical text. As several have said, the main article should be factual and relatively short. Ak made an excellent suggestion in a section on why get implants. Again, this need not be long, but a bullet point or paragraph would do. This is mentioned in passing, but not in a context by itself. Perhaps it should be, since Ak
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
Why is there no information on her about String breast implants? I know it was here before, but where did it go? (unsigned)
Ok. There's also a procedure in which saline is injected directly to give a temporary boost in size and perhaps firmness. This is probably a type of implant, however temporary, so I think we should briefly mention it here. Al 20:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm definitely talking about directly injecting saline into the breasts, as per this link. It's not popular and I couldn't quickly find a more reliable source.
As for how many types to mention, while I certainly don't want rare and unavailable types to dominate the article, a line or two max should be fine. Comprehensiveness is worth the small cost in space, I'd say. Al 02:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I deleted that - that was inadvertant. I meant only to delete the Inamed promotion on Inamed's 'bouncy breast implants' that had initially been added. MollyBloom 17:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I just wandered into this article and noticed something rather surprising: the images of ruptured and damaged implants are duplicated, while there are exactly zero images of female breasts, containing implants, from the outside - as in, the way they are intended to appear with functioning implants.
I don't personally have any way of acquiring copy-free images to upload in order to fix the second problem, but would anyone disagree with my removing the redundant copies of the implant-rupture images? Also, any editor who does have access to copy-free images of breasts containing implants, please upload them! Cheers, Kasreyn 05:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Why is information on ruptures and other problems scattered around amongst "Local Complications" and "Risks and Controversies" sections? Aren't "complications" just a kind of "risk"? All these should be relocated under the "Risks and Controversies" section. There also appears to be redundant material in several areas. The article seems to spend a great deal of time focusing on the effects of the failures and complications of these devices, and very little time focusing on the motivations of the women who chose to undergo such a procedure. If a Martian were to read this article, he would be left wondering, "why do Earthling women do this? It never said!" The continued popularity of the procedure surely indicates that there is something motivating women to do this. It would definitely be notable to cover it in this article, whatever it is. Other possible details which are not covered are customer satisfaction rates (can surveys be found?), information on effects on breastfeeding (if any?), and more detail on the history of the procedure (which skips past everything between 1865 and the 1940's!)
I don't really know who did what and I'm going to assume good faith on the part of every individual, but on the whole, the article seems to take a very one-sided approach to the issue. It goes into great detail on every negative aspect of implants, but scarcely breathes a word elsewhere. Kasreyn 06:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
As to 'why do earthlings do this' question, my answer would be because many plastic surgeons tell women implants are completely safe, and Dow has spent millions on studies insisting these are safe. Thousands of women who have had to have multiple surgeries, been disfigured and become ill know full well why women do this, and wish they never had. MollyBloom 14:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Molly, you've explained why your POV is so hostile to breast implants. Unfortunately, it is this very bias that is the problem. In reality, the vast majority of breast implant procedures are uneventful, if perhaps a bit tacky. If you want to make sure the article includes reliable sources that recommend removing ruptured implants, that's fine. However, if you want this article to make breast implants sound uniformly deadly, that's simply not acceptable. Al 04:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
There's a tag alterting editors to the fact that the article has gotten a bit large and needs branching. I was thinking that we could separate out the section on silicone implants into a fork. My rationale is that it's well-defined and represents a topic that is considerably more controversial and (due to recent actions to restore the legality of such implants) less stable. What do you think? Al 01:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
String implants are banned in the US, for anyone. This is not true for silicone implants, for which there is an adjunct study. If string implants are available elsewhere, please post here. Otherwise it does not belong here. And, are string implants very common, if they are available anywhere? MollyBloom 00:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. And it's not unreasonable to put saline implants in a prominent position, since they make up the overwhelming majority, followed by what's legal but less available, what's illegal and what's in development or related. Is that a reasonable order? Al 17:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so let's plan it out here.
Freely available: Saline -- Saline-filled implants are believed to be safer than silicone because rupture or leakage will only release salt water--not silicone gel--into the body. Consequently, FDA has allowed these implants to remain on the market without evidence of safety until 2000. On May 10, 2000, the FDA approved saline implants made by McGhan (now Inamed and soon to be Allerghan) and Mentor for augmentation in women 18 or older. They were approved for reconstructive use for women of all ages.
Limited availability: (This is from a plastic surgeon's website, and it is pretty neutral, which is refreshing)
(We need to discuss availability in NEUTRAL terms. I welcome other's input, but I ask that any editors please identify themselves, and add to, not delete others' suggestions. This is, after all, a discussion page)
Unavailable:
Pending: tissue
Please do not change what I have written here. This is my suggestion. We can get input from other editors, Rob. Your changing this on the DISCUSSION page is not honest. Write your own suggestion, but do not alter mine. This, by the way, mostly came from the website of BOARD CERTIFIED plastic surgeons. MollyBloom 23:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the direct saline injection. Perhaps we can get input from some MDs on this? I think that would be good. The rest sounds fine. I know there were some other implants like Hydrogel in the UK that were banned, but I don't know much about them. Do you think the whole section on silicone implants should be shortened - eg the 'generations'? MollyBloom 21:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Al, that sounds fine. Your thoughts on this are very good. It gives a broader perspective on breast implants, that an encyclopedic article should have. WE don't have to write more than a sentence or two on the ones that are not widely used, or are in development. But after thinking about it, I agree that it is important to include. MollyBloom 05:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A sentence or two should suffice. There still seems to be controversy on the Hydrogel, too, like silicone. The problem with hydrogel was lack of long term follow up; which ironically, is still the problem with silicone implants - the two US manufacturers only provided the FDA 2 and 3 years of 'core' data. The FDA acknowledged the adjunct studies were fatally flawed. Here are a couple links on Hydrogel. A 2002 plastic surgery article published in PubMed said they were fine (surprise surprise). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11832859&dopt=Abstract As with silicone implants, women began having serious problems with the Hydrogel, as this article mentions: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2203951,00.html They are no longer available in the UK. http://mhra.gov.uk/home/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=738 and the UK Times wrote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2203951,00.html
The IOM simply reviewed the studies that were done that were funded by Dow, Rob. There is a controversy on this issue, which is why the FDA has NOT approved silicone implants yet. There is no harm in adding an external link of a research NON-PROFIT organization. The consensus is to keep it. It stays. MollyBloom 18:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask others (NOT ROB) what they think about the non-profit link that I added. It offers a differing view, but it is academic, and it links to academic articles, as well. Dr. Zuckerman is a Harvard epidemiologist who should be linked to on this issue, as much as the plastic surgeons. I welcome others to view this website, and explain why it is not acceptable as a legitimate link. (I don't think others will.) MollyBloom 03:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that this fits within standards for an external link. Al 23:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
We need to discuss external links here. MollyBloom 23:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Since Droliver is insulting the website of the nonprofit organization that I am president of, I will respond. Our organization is not "known" to be biased, except perhaps by individuals who have never read the epidemiological studies that we have reviewed. I would be happy to debate, in civil dialogue and in specific detail, any information on our website. I am trained in epidemiology from Yale Medical School, directed a longitudinal research project at Harvard, and am currently a Fellow at the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania. The National Research Center for Women & Families is very concerned about the often-quoted poorly designed implant studies, virtually all of which are funded by implant makers and plastic surgeons. Our detailed criticisms of these biased studies are available on our website, and not a single author of any of those studies has ever complained about our criticisms. We usually rely on data from independent studies, such as those funded by the US government or the Canadian government. Summaries of those government studies are available on our website, as are links to those articles. In addition, we often quote the findings of industry-funded studies that have been analyzed by the FDA, since those findings are more accurate than the analyses conducted by the companies themselves. Unfortunately, those findings have never been published by the companies, apparently because they do not want to publicize their high complication rates. 216.164.59.38 01:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)Diana Zuckerman, PhD dz@center4research.org
Okay, Al. I dont have a problem with legitimate links. I do think they should be discussed here. We will leave all three. MollyBloom 18:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Now that the editorial moratorium seems to have run it's course with this entry, we are left with an article that's still unsatisfactory. At the time it was arrested, it had been freshly edited to aggressively represent a controversial POV on this topic. There is no hint of the mainstream data, reviews, and opinions of the professional bodies who work in the field. We are still left with deliberately pointed sections fiercly guarded from moderation by one said editor who has used this entry as a platform for political crusading on a percieved cover-up of the real-world consequences of these devices by the medical-industrial complex. Even well-documented historical aspects of development which should be pretty non-controversial have been distorted (ie. the bizarre deviation on the history of the saline implant section). It remains clear that when someone who
is not someone who can be collaborated with in a productive way. Outside of the technical aspects of the article, the bulk of this is such a jumble of dis-coherent & inacurate information that it begs to be scrapped. Droliver 22:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Every statement in there that I have added is supported by academic citations. You just have a problem with my raising anything negative about silicone implants. HEavens, you didn't even want to include the LOCAL complications, which are not even controversial. MollyBloom 06:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Nope. Fine with me. MollyBloom 15:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not going to dignify DrOliver's list of complaints against me, with my own list against him. It is unproductive. I have repeatedly ask that DrOliver be civil. I would like to see the focus on the article, and not on the person. I edit on a number of articles, apart from breast implants. I have not had such problem on any other articles I have edited. But on this, there have been all out wars. I would appreciate help with coming to a reasonable resolution. MollyBloom 05:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate offers to mediate. Please, someone, help. I also would so appreciate it if Dr. Laub or would come help with this. He said he would but has been absent.. I am not a medical doctor, but I do have a background in science and engineering, and law. I have researched this area extensively. I also know that one cannot cherry pick and choose only the positive or only the negative in an article..
The "mainstream" assessment should be included - it has to be. But when DrOliver did that he made it an advertisement. Then he became hostile. The encyclopedic article is not an advertisement. I would like to see a very factual main article, and then a split (soon) for the controversial areas. NOT a fork, but a split into a separate article, as David suggested,. He too pointed out there was genuine controversy, within the medical profession and scientific community. There are still many women becoming ill from local complications or what they perceive to be systemic complications. In short, this is not a situation like, for example, evolution. Science has definitively weighed in on evolution. (I hope I am not going to inflame here) But the anti-evolutionists argue for a biblical interpretation which is simply not scientific. Science has not definitely weighted in on breast implants, regardless of what Rob insists. As a plastic surgeon who performs breast implants, Rob is understandably enthusiastic about them. But a more tempered approach would be a wiser approach, as some other plastic surgeons have pointed out to me. Anyway, I would be happy to have someone act as mediator. MollyBloom 05:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
to benefits-vs.-risks, and not enough space to other aspects important to a reader who wants to learn about the subject matter. Kasreyn 22:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Oliver and I tried to edit initially at the same time. So I am going to repost the comment/question, and discuss the article improvement. We all need to be civil, and not disparage other users.
Aktornado, I agree with you on all counts. The article needs work, and it will be split into two articles. That was the consensus of all the editors who weighed in.
The main article should be very factual in the main section, including local complications, and maybe some of the things you mention. The Risk and Controversy section is predominantly about silicone implants, because the manufacturers have fought long and hard to get the FDA to approve silicone implants. As yet, the FDA has not, but is expected to rule one way or the other, probably this year.
I am not going to attack any editor. There has been far too much of that. The "Risks and Controversy" section is predominantly about silicone, and will be a separate article. I and others have hoped we could get new blood, so to speak, to help with the article. There has been bias both ways. You can judge the comment below and its tone, for yourself.
My hope is that we can obtain a good, solid factual article for breast implants. The other discussion will be a separate article. By the way, I am a scientist as well as a lawyer, and certainly am not anti-science. I am however well aware of the existing controversy that still exists within the medical community. I have a few letters or emails I from neurologists, rheumatologists and plastic surgeon , and certainly could scan and enter them, if there is serious question that there is still a debate. Moreover, the editor below blasted a Harvard and Yale epidemiologist and expert in this area who disagreed with him. Now. Let's not start another war. let's get new blood to help rewrite!
Why don't you help us rewrite the article? We need some 'new' perspective, from someone who is not overtly biased, one way or the other. Thanks!! ;-) 04:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, the consensus in a long debate on this subject (including other doctors weighing in) was to create a second article, because of the importance of the subject. Certainly not to sum up in a sentence. Please look at the tags and discussion for explanation of this. Thanks MollyBloom 04:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[User:Jgwlaw|MollyBloom]] 04:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
No fork - I agree with Molly - Silicone needs be kept within main topic, but the article is long and so a split half-way down ((a) what they are and (b) the possible risks which has generated noteworthy public controversy for both types) is sensible encyclopedia article writing. Whilst I don't think breast imlants are as important as perhaps heart surgery or hip replacements (by numbers undertaken or significance to myself as a General Practitioner), they are notable and the controversy over whether there is or is not chronic side-effects has been well aired in public. It is one of a number of topics in which general medical consensus, research evidence, vocal patient groups and regulatory authorities are not in accord and the article does need to observe on these issues (although of course WP is not the place to actually argue out debates).David Ruben Talk 17:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC). MollyBloom 07:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Per what Aktornado and others have said, there is a great deal on silicone implants, which considerably outweighs saline. The percentage of which is used more than the other doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since both are used. In fact, there are more restrictions on silicone than saline. Either way, it makes sense to not go into prolonged detail about the history of silicone implants. A short history should suffice, with the descriptioin of what they used to be (thin shell, liquid gel) and the efforts to make them less prone to rupture (different gel). Then one might mention in a sentence about the gummy bear. That is sufficient. The long dissertation on how each one differs is way beyond the scope of a WIki or encyclopoedia article.
I suggest continuing on the main article, recognizing Wikopedia is not a medical text. As several have said, the main article should be factual and relatively short. Ak made an excellent suggestion in a section on why get implants. Again, this need not be long, but a bullet point or paragraph would do. This is mentioned in passing, but not in a context by itself. Perhaps it should be, since Ak