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The first photo looks like regular normal breasts. The woman might be pregnant -- I believe whoever says she is -- but it doesn't look particularly like a pregnant woman's breasts. The caption seems like an excuse for having the photo there. Maybe readers don't know what breasts look like, and that's why this article has so many photos, and needs one right at the beginning.
As the director of a research center on women's and kids health, we actually get emails from girls and women of all ages worried because their breasts don't look perfect. So, let's not have a wikipedia article contributing to that.
If the purpose of the photos is to educate, how about using some photos from this website, showing a diversity rather than mostly idealized versions: http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery.php
I found the comments about "some people think that older women's breasts look unattractive" offensive. And, I don't think it adds anything to the article.
If we're going to have a section on plastic surgery, then I would like to add some sociological analyses from books about the American culture's obsession with "perfect breasts" as well as psychological studies showing that women who undergo breast augmentation tend to feel worse about themselves and their lives than women who don't. There are 5 studies showing that women who undergo breast augmentation are twice as likely to kill themselves as other plastic surgery patients and other women of the same age and social class. But frankly, it was easier to just delete the 3 sentences about breast augmentation rather than add a few paragraphs. I didn't revise the content on breast reconstruction.
By the way, I was at a meeting with pediatricians today, who told me that 13-year old boys are using illegal drugs so that they can develop a 6-pack. If this continues, boys will be just as depressed about how they look as girls are.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drzuckerman ( talk • contribs) .
inframammary line? Theirs no article about it...And its mentioned.-- 64.121.1.55 02:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
A number of other editors have left the version on plastic surgery which you keep changing. THe version as it is now is accurate. Because you or some other plastic surgeons will operate on a teenager, does not make it consensus, or appropriate. Jance 16:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
New research of the anatomy of the human breast has overturned some of the data in this article. See breast anatomy for details.
I was thinking maybe you have too many pictures of the same body part, turning the article into more of a "boobie gallery" than a legit article. (this unsigned statement was made by Harmsc12 at 20:28, 4 December 2006)
Is there any reason to have more than one photo of the breasts of a pregnant woman? Where did this first photo come from? It may have been there a long time, but does that make it a good thing? Jance 23:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I am glad to know that I am not the only one (or two) that find it objectionable. What about one of the other photos or diagrams below (excluding the photo captioned "normal breasts".) What about the photo of the breast anatomy? That is more appropriate and does not look like a "boobie gallery". Jance 23:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll take your word for it that you think that photo is inappropriate, Jance, but I honestly don't see how. It's a high quality non-pornographic photograph. I don't understand...what would be appropriate? (BTW, if you want to see really inappropriate photos, you should see some of the stuff people have added that I've reverted.) -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 23:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The purpose is to illustrate the subject of the article. There should be a lead picture here for the same reason there's a lead picture in Hand, Foot, Hair, Automobile, Fixed-wing aircraft...anything you can point to. Turning the question around, why should there not be a lead picture in this article? -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 01:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
For the record, my desire is not to censor, and I do not think the showing of breasts, or any body part for that matter, "hurts children" as one editor suggested. I do wonder about this choice, for different reasons. Jance 02:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
No, you are correct and I was mistaken. The photo does not say "normal" but instead "human breasts". My original edit did not suggest a substitute, but I did after you made your first comment. I suggested the diagram of the breast anatomy, or even perhaps a more realistic photo of breasts (the lead picture is indeed good quality, but does not look like most non-altered breasts, in my opinion.) If you or others are wedded to that photo, leave it. Out of curiosity, I did search for "penis" in Wiki, and I note that it has no lead photo. The very few photos that are there are far more realistic than what is here for breasts. There is also no discussion of penile implant, although that is done, albeit not as frequently as breast implants. It is not that big of a deal though, and I don't think it is worth arguing about. Jance 02:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't read the entire debate above, but I read some of it. I have some expertise in recognizing breast implants, though such expertise is fairly common. The common traits of breast implants are:
Now that you mention it, the breasts in the lead image do look slightly fake, but they are certainly not conclusively fake. I do not object to the lead image, but I do object to it being called 'pregnant', because a pregnant belly can not be seen in the picture.
Embryoglio 10:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Jim, do you think that the diagram is acceptable for a lead pic? As I said, "penis" does not even have a lead photo. I am not entirely sure that a large photo of either a penis or a breast is necessary to identify the object about what we are talking. It seems that Kasryn thinks we should also have a larg photo of a penis as a lead pic, but nobody else there seemed to think so. So I would like to get a consensus here, as well. Jance 22:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
--I think a diagram would be better than a big picture of a breast. It would probably even reduce perv traffic at this article, saving a bit of bandwidth for wikipedia.
The Anatomy section contains this sentence: "The rest of the breast is composed of connective tissue, i.e., adipose tissue (fat) and Cooper's ligaments."
This says that fat is a type of connective tissue. Is that medically correct? My understanding is that fat doesn't anchor anything to anything — it just sits there. Cognita 23:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I shuffled the photos around to include a subtle lead image and removed the redundant pregnant photos as the article looks more like a photo gallery and not an encyclopedic article on breast. -- I already forgot 08:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
User:I already forgot seems to have forgot that he/she said above "I'll leave this article to the regulars." and has returned to play the censorship game again. His/her last revert (image removal) had the odd explanation that breasts are unrelated to breastfeeding. Wow, that's a revelation. I'm not a regular nor an expert on the subject, but the image he seems intent on removing is valid and appropriate and shouldn't offend anyone (well maybe some fundamentalist religeous types who are offended by life). Cheers, Vsmith 01:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed the article a few days ago and I did not understand how the picture in question added value to the article. It was not unique, demonstrating some aspect of the subject as other photos already did. I considered editing it to make the article more concise, but did not. Now someone else has tried to remove it, apparently for similar reasoning. I don't think it is offensive, nor is it a bad photo, but it just doesn't seem to add any additional information to the article that is not already there in the other photos. We have no need to make a collection of breast photos, do we? I do note that there do not seem to be any male breast photos. Atom 02:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
More censorship talk. Any attempt to remove any image should be met with a vandalism warning. The picture in question adds value because different pictures shows different types of shapes and sizes. If you do not like the picture in question then go ahead and take your top off and yeah -- show us what you got. -- MotherAmy 02:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I have put back the references to studies highlighting the difficulty post-operative women have in breastfeeding removed by Droliver. The link between breastfeeding and subsequent child development is sufficiently important for this issue to be highlighted. As medical practitoners, responsible plastic surgeons will welcome the info being referenced. They would agree that any woman planning to have children someday should think long and hard before opting for elective breast surgery. ( Pworms 17:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC))
I've created an archive, if I've accidentlly removed a still active discussion, please restore it. (I did this under an IP address because I wasn't logged in) -- Honeymane Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam 01:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
We do not need these pictures on Wikipedia they should all be taken off. Anyone can access these because Wikipedia is not blocked by internet filters because it was not made to be a porn site. We seriously should take these pictures down. It is in no way necessary to have these for anyone but the perverts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Douglas Bradford Oliver ( talk • contribs).
Turbo Ronin 20:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Oh come on. Kids are learning about this stuff in school by 7th grade. Only someone with a perverted mind such as yourself would be offended by anatomical pictures.
The addition of another image by user:Nemeton is disruptive. Three other editors have clearly said that the image is not desired in the article. I am taking the opportunity to explain why to you at this time.
Your manner of adding an image into the article without discussing it first, especially as a lede image, and then reverting three other editors seems more trollish and disruptive than complementary to the editing process. Please desist. Atom 05:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Said user has twice blanked the image
which contrasts with the previous image in the shapes that it demonstrates.
He/she even posted the following message to my talk page, which makes incivil accusations of making false accusations of vandalism:
-Yet the person that initiated an edit war was him/herself, such that the above statement is incoherent.
Consensus does not apply to persistent blanking vandalism either. Furthermore, discussion is used to remove additions, not to make additions. So, if there are no objections to including informative images in this article by anyone other than User:I already forgot or other users that have a clear pro-censorship bias, then I will continue to revert User:I already forgot's blanking vandalism.
Embryoglio 23:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what dispute you have with I already forgot or any other user, but the image you have here needs to be discussed before we add it to the article. If you read the history, as you probably are aware, that there are a number of editors who participate in this article, and are sensitive to any changes of images for any reason. Your addition of this image, which looks very interesting, should be discussed before it is added so that the editors can gain consensus as to how this interesting image could increase the quality of the article. If images of breasts were just added continuously we would have an article that was a collection of images of womens breasts. That is not our goal. If you could explain how you perceive that this image will add to the quality of the article by supporting a currently existing section that has no image, or by adding additional information to the article, that would be nice.
My opinion is that although the image is visually interesting, it doesn't seem to add any intrinsic information not already in the article. If we allow addition of an image based purely on it's uniqueness, we will become a collection of images, as nearly every womens breats are unique. As interesting as it may seem to have an article that was a collection of every woman's breasts, I am not sure that in practice it would be as intereting or valuable as it sounds. I am open to the possibility that my opinion is wrong, and there is something about the image (other than it being unique and different than the other images) that I am missing. Atom 23:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Atomaton, my post clearly states "if there are no objections to including informative images in this article by anyone other than
User:I already forgot or other users that have a clear pro-censorship bias "
I was referring primarily to you, and possibly also Jance.
Furthermore, your statements make no sense at all. You imply that this is just a random image, yet it clearly demonstrates a general breast type, as described in the caption. You state that the image gives no information, yet it gives no less information than any other image in the article. You state that the image is merely unique and interesting, yet it demonstrates a prime example of a general breast type, which simultaneously demonstrates three different traits in one picture (which conveniently contrast with the 3 opposite traits in the ptosis picture) so as to demonstrate a wide diversity of breast types with minimal photos. In conclusion, you make multiple arguments that are completely inapplicable to the image in question, as if you were arguing against a very different image.
Also, you and User:I already forgot know full well that you are the only 2 'regulars' that edit this article, so acheiving consensus is not possible, because not enough people will even read this. Therefore a request for consensus is ridiculous and is clearly intended to delay the inclusion of this image indefinately.
Embryoglio 00:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for you input. The guideline that I am applying is one we have been working on at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality called Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines.
Additional images should add additional information:
Some articles have an abundance of images, more than really is needed to make the point. Public nudity might be one of these, where Naturism seems about right. Anytime a new image is proposed to be added, or is added without discussion, we can put it on the talk page, and begin a discussion about adding it. The main focus should be whether the new proposed image adds quality to the article, and is a better choice than alternatives to illustrate the given point.
The best way to gain consensus on this article would be to present the topic on the talk pages, discuss how the image will be used and the merits of the image, and see what kind of response you get from others. You approach has been somewhat different, in that you threw the image in there without prior discussion, and then attacked the first person who dared to revert your change.
As I said previously, we are not attempting to collect womens breast images that represent every characteristic. The fact that the image that you bring forward has three interesting characteristics is not a sufficient reason for inclusion in the article. I asked before if you could explain how this image is significant, what additional information of value it would bring to the article, or what image you think it would replace. Your response was combatative, rather than assuming good faith of the other editors.
I've tried to patiently explain that you need to get a consensus, as many people edit this article.
Thanks, Atom 02:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
You are making nearly the exact same statements that I already responded to; and are again attempting to falsely portray the image by acting as if you are arguing against a completely different image.
Now you falsely portray 3 traits of breast diversity in a single image, appropriately in the section 'shape in support' (it doesn't get any more relevant than that) as not being a informative.
I am quite familiar with the policy AGF, and I know that it no longer applies when an edittor has shown clear bad faith, as you have. It is also a violation of the AGF policy to make false accusations of violating AGF, which you have now done.
As you can clearly see, I have already shifted from reverting to discussion before you have made your last response. My response that you have responded to is itself proof of that. Anyway, consensus has already formed in favor of including the images, particularly the new one that I added. It is also rather uncivil of you to accuse me of being arbitrarily combattive, and of being a person that tries peoples' patience, not to mention your other false accusations against me on this talk page and on the admin's noticeboard. I have been rather patient with your deceptive behaviors, interacting with you with great civility and soft wording. So, I request that you cease such behavior.
Thanks, Embryoglio 05:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Breast&diff=next&oldid=94188978 The user who I already forgot has shown a clear pattern of ongoing removal of breast images. Go through the history section and check for your self. The edit warrring has removed pictures without consensus which is a HUGE VIOLATION of policy. Before removing images consensus must be reached. In order to maintain Wikipedian policy we must put back the images that were LOST due to EDIT WAR! -- MotherAmy 00:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Stop removing images (personal attack removed) 75.69.207.170 01:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I generally agree that
User:I already forgot, as well as
User:Atomaton have shown a clear pattern of persistent blanking vandalism on this article. Forgot has even made a gross personal attack by calling MotherAmy a troll, and by generally calling one's enemies trolls and sockpupprts. Forgot has even made uncivil false accusations on my talk page.
This is one of the top 100 most-viewed articles? For the record, I have made a successful request for semi-protection on this article. That will protect it from the IP vandals, but unfortunately it does not protect from vandalism by User:I already forgot or User:Atomaton, who are classified as established users. Well, at least I solved part of the problem. Forgot- MotherAmy's inclusions are sometimes unnecessary or in the wrong section, but calling her, and your enemies in general, 'trolls' and/or 'sockpuppets' is an entirely inappropriate and baseless personal attack, which is clearly intended to compensate for your own and Atomaton's lack of intrinsic logical support for your position. Forgot has also deleted the comment by 75.69.207.170 , which I restored.
There is a clear consensus between MotherAmy, Embryoglio (myself), Honeymane, and 75.69.207.170 for the inclusion of the images that you have deleted. I am actually rather surprised that so many people even noticed this section of the talk page, and so quickly too. So, Forgot, if you and/or Automaton continue to delete images, particularly "Image:Breast_shape_type-_lengthwise_growth_and_angled_end.jpg|thumb|right|Breasts with a high length-to-base ratio, angled ends, and a straight upper part" , then you will be in violation of consensus and WP:OWN .
Embryoglio 03:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the anon's input carries somewhat less weight, but there is clearly a consensus. If you do not like the result, then you may choose to simply voice your opposition to it, rather than trying to skirt consensus by invalidating your opponent's input. Embryoglio 05:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Good, then you do not give any weight to the input of Forgot or Atomaton either, though I think that persistent vandals should be given less weight than random vandals. As for your second sentence, I have already replied to it in my last reply, as you are basically repeating yourself, though all of us except for the anon ARE established. Embryoglio 06:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
We have begun a process to gain consensus, whether we had it or not is no longer relevant. No one has removed the lede image, at any time, to my knowledge. It's the same one that has been there for several months, at least. Please join the discussion, see below. The "poorly drawn" image you refer to is the one that Embryoglio added, I believe. Atom 23:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
"Your persisting incivility, on the other hand, makes your arguments less convincing (not to mention your constant accusations). "
-Xyzzy, that false accusation of me is a violation of the policy against lies, which are classified as a serious breach of civility. Also, any attempt to characterize a user badly in order to discredit their arguments regardless of their content is a personal attack. Furthermore, do not think that a lie will gain more weight if it is repeated by multiple people that are attempting to own this article, in violation of WP:OWN. Ultimately, doing so will only reveal your own deceptiveness. Embryoglio 07:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
-If that highly derogatory and deceptive reply is not uncivil, then nothing is. Embryoglio 07:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking various editors, particularly User:Embryoglio to stop edit warring and discuss the issues on the talk page. I find the type of language and method being used to be non productive and disruptive.
Also, I added a warning on User:Embryoglio for violation of the three revert rule. Please stop reverting other editors work. Please see Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Etiquette.
Regards, Atom 02:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently, there are eight images in this article. Here's the thing about images - they take a long time for a person with an old or feeble computer to load. That means that this article might not get read at all by a lot of people. That's just one of the issues about having 8 images in an article. I like all the images, but something's got to give here. Nina Odell 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Several images have recently been added to the article, without discussion or comment. We try to keep the article down to useful and illustrative images, but several redundant images have been added. We are in the middle of trying to get a few editors to explain why their images are needed in the article also. The guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines are intended to try and avoid too many images, redundant images, and the like. But, one cannot enforce the guidelines, and the current editors adding images have chosen to not regard the guidelines. Atom 03:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Nina, all except the worst browsers have the option to not automatically load images. Also, the text of a page typically loads before images do, such that non-loading of images does not effect the transfer of the page itself. I also have a slow connection, and even I do not notice a problem, so perhaps your connection is exceptionally slow. I hope that this information has been helpful to you.
By the way, I support the guidelines against redundant images, but unfortunately, the user Atomaton who has just recently replied to you, does not, but is only using said policy as a cover to delete some of the most informative images. I'm sorry that he/she would try to use you like that, and I hope that that does not happen to you again on wikipedia.
Embryoglio 03:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
In the above talk section 'Edit warring, disruption and 3RR', the user Atomaton has resorted to making false accusations of me, most obvious of which is a 3RR violation. Making a 3RR violation requires 4 reverts, and I have only made one (see http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Breast&action=history) . False accusations don't get much more blatant than that. He/she has even put the false accusation on my talk page, so as to make it more convincing to third parties (yes, I am aware of that trick). He/she and User:I already forgot have even made a gang attack against me at Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard, in which they made false accusations against me.
I suspected that this would happen, because I am a very civil, unbiased, and convincing (in talk page discussions) opponent of theirs. Atomaton and Forgot therefore perceive me as the greatest threat of all of their opponents on this issue, and have therefore targetted me for destruction. Such behavior is utterly unacceptable on wikipedia, and if MotherAmy or some other user will support me, I will create user RfCs on those 2 users.
Embryoglio 04:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Armadillo, thank you for admitting that you also would have made such false accusations. Embryoglio 05:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Armadillo, I'm warning you to cease your behavior of threatening people and projecting your own policy violations onto them, just because they point out facts that you don't want to be exposed. Such revenge threats are a gross violation of WP:CIVIL, and you know it. Embryoglio 07:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I discussed the issues that Motheramy has been concerned about in some detail in my talk page, and I see that it is a seperate issue from the issues that Embryoglio states. I have attempted discourse with Embryoglio, but he does not seem interested in compromise, or working with others at this point.
MotherAmy's complaint is that a number of images were removed since late December with no discussion. Images that had been in the article for some time, apparently with consensus. In review of her complaint, I see that there is a good basis and foundation for that. As a method of working through the problems, I would like to deal with MotherAmy's issue first, and return the images to a state in late December. This is a compromise, and may, or may not resolve the issue with her, but it is a starting point for discussion about that from a point in time when everyone more or less had consensus. We can at that point discuss whether additional images need to be in the article, or if images in the article should be replaced, removed, or whatever. I would like to discuss and come to consensus before we make changes however. If we could leave the images and article alone until we come to that consensus, I would appreciate it. I am not adding or removing any images, but going back to this point in time here [2] from December 26th.
The issue with Embryoglio is much different, one of him trying to add an additional image, against consensus, and then incivility with anyone who disagrees with him. After we work through the issue with Motheramy, to her satisfaction hopefully, we can attempt civil discourse with Embryoglio to determine the value of his image relating to the quality of the article. Atom 13:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The images as I just changed should be the same as mentioned above, on December 26th. Please do not add or remove images until after we work through any issues with MotherAmy. Atom 13:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The image that MotherAmy and I are discussing is the Image:Breast 6 months pregnant.jpg which I find in the on November 3rd [3], November 11th [4], November 18th [5], November 25th [6], December 1st [7], December 8th [8], December 16th [9], and being removed on December 19th [10] by user:RexImperium with the edit summary "we only need one photo of pregnancy-stage breasts." There appears to be no dicussion of the removal in the talk pages regarding that.
Based on that, I'm going to return the image to the article, so that we can move onward with discussing the existing content and images, so that we don't keep Embryoglio waiting too long.
Atom 22:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
"I have attempted discourse withEmbryoglio, but he does not seem interested in compromise, or working with others at this point." "incivility with anyone who disagrees with him."
-Those are lies, which can be clearly disproven by viewing my statements. Lies are a serious violation of the civility policy. Atomaton, just because you oppose the inclusion of the new image is no excuse to uncivilly make up lies about your opponent.
As for the 6 months pregnant image, I am in full agreement with RexImperium that that image is redundant and comparatively uninformative, and should therefore be deleted.
By the way, MotherAmy once restored the new image that I added after it was deleted, but you neglected to mention that.
Embryoglio 05:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Should this article include an informative image of a contrasting breast shape type (which is displayed below, complete with caption), or should it be forbidden from the article? It is the second image below that has been deleted by the opponents; the first image (which is already included in the article) is shown below for the sake of demonstrating the contrast in shape type. The images are from the top of the section 'shape and support'.
Currently, there is already consensus in favor of inclusion (shown in the section 'censorship' on this talk page), but the opponents have resorted to making underhanded false accusations of policy violation of the inclusion proponents. Thus I will see if an RfC will lead to an even more overwhelming consensus, or not. Embryoglio
Of course this should be included. To not include it would be an unnecessary censoring of Wikipedia. .V. 06:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
For RfC respondents, please see above for discussion of a compromise under way. There are two issues. The first are images that have been part of the page for some time, but were removed without consensus recently. As a compromise we have returned those images, and are now discussing the issue of how many images the article may need, and how many is too many.
The second issue is the addition of an image by Embryoglio. Generally we have followed the guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines, and want any additional images to add quality to the article. There has been no issue of censorship, but only of editorial oversight of the quality of the article. The image might possibly be a valuable addition to the article, but several editors have been unable to have civil discourse with Embryoglio. This is indicated in the talk pages above, you can come to your own conclusions about that.
In this most recent action Motheramy and I have had substantive discussions on my talk page, and have agreed to work the issue out with other editors, and find consensus. A recent re-addition of images that she has indicated is the start of that discussion. We have agreed to not add or remove images to the article until a general consensus among all editors can be discussed and reached. After that time, we can attempt to discuss the merits of the image that Embryoglio has provided. Atom 13:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we have all of the images that MotherAmy wanted. We can discuss the status of the images now, whether to add or remove any, etc. See below. Atom 03:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
"several editors have been unable to have civil discourse with Embryoglio.
This is indicated in the talk pages above, you can come to your own conclusions about that."
-Yet another uncivil lie from User:Atomaton. I encourage all third parties to read my statements, and to pay attention closely, rather than be biased by Atomaton's display of overconfidence as he/she intends. It has been Atomaton's tactic to use a facade of civility and constructiveness to make his/her highly uncivil deceptions more convincing. Don't take my word for it; just read his statements and mine. I have already described the relevance and informativeness of the image (which is obvious, though). Rather than accept it, Atomaton has merely repeated his/her same oppositional statements about the image that are clearly not true of the image. I pointed that out, and now Atomaton is on an attack campaign against me because he doesn't like the fact that I exposed such deceptions. Apparently he/she is doing this out of spite because I had originally restored the image without consulting him first, such that he/she is making a gross violation of WP:POINT. Atomaton has even vandalized the entry of this dispute on the RfC page, and made lies on the talk page thereof, so as to direct people away from the dispute about the image that I added to people that don't already know of said dispute.
As for resolving the dispute of whether or not to include the image that I added, a supermajority has already been reached in favor of inclusion, a fact which Atomaton is now attempting to distract from. A 100 percent consensus in this case is impossible because I have already presented my response to Atomaton's opposition, and Atomaton did not change his/her mind, but just repeated the same statements. The supermajority consists of Embryoglio (myself), MotherAmy (who restored the image before it was deleted again), Honeymane, and .V. .
Embryoglio 07:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
To RFC participants: We have a page for discussion of changes to the breast article that lists all of the available images we could find that might be related. Included in that list is the image that the user above has mentioned. So far no one has recommended it for inclusion, although it is in the list of images that are under consideration, not on the list of images that are not under consideration. So, as for a "supermajority" for the image. Well, as you can see on these pages, it hasn't even been discussed for inclusion, and certainly the three users mentioned haven't ever voted on any of the images. So, it would be hard to imagine how a consensus could have been reached when it hasn't even been discussed yet. And even so, three users out of the many that edit these pages would hardly be a majority, much less a consensus. The discussion that is currently underway is at Talk:Breast/sandbox Atom 14:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Please join a discussion of the images to be used for this article. ( Click here to participate)
Atom 02:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed
Image:EroticBreastsCake.jpg from consideration, I don't think it would be good for the article. Also, I think we should remove
Image:Bildhuggarkonst, Fången moder, af Sinding, Nordisk familjebok.png as well, as I don't see how it would be useful.
This image Image:Cassatt Mary Maternite 1890.jpg could be a good addition though.
Has anyone else look at these yet?
Are there images in the current article that are redundant, or don't offer vsalue to the article?
Atom 03:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this image Image:Cassatt Mary Maternite 1890.jpg is a good addition. Go ahead and add it in as a test run now to see if it works for this article. Problably somewhere towards the bottom right half area would be a nice placement for this image. -- MotherAmy 03:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, look at all of the other images too. We can't add them all. See the link above to look at the list. We want to get input from a variety of other people as well. Atom 04:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I understand your logic. What I mean though is that there are alot of other editors who need to come to consensus with adding any images, this or any other. Also, some of them may say that there are already too many images, or that this new image should replace one of the others, etc. See the guidelines that are part of that discussion. We will need to wait some time to get a broad range of people who participate and come to consensus. Atom 04:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I already looked at the other images. We don't need to wait for this one. It is not a naked picture. It is just a drawing. So, please, I recommend to go ahead and add it in now. Its a high quality image. Thanks. -- MotherAmy 04:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this discussion. We all agree that we are not going to censor images. Images in the article should primarily be about the breast. I consider breast feeding to be a different, but connected and related topic that can be here. Pictures of other parts of the anatomy do not belong here. Second, our goal is a high quality article. We have a number of sections with text that explains or informs about the breast. Having a strong lede image, and an image for many, or maybe even ALL of the sections would be great. The images should support the section it is with to add to the section, give it depth, help the reader identify quickly what is said. Diagrams can help do that also. In general, we do not need more than one image per section. In the rare case (one that most of us editors would agree with) more than one may be appropriate if it brings something unique and special. What we have all agreed is that we don't want to be just a collection of images. The process of us discussing the images, and what goes where, and which images are best for the quality of the article and then coming to consensus is what we are working on now. This type of selection of images is not censorship, but editorial consideration, and the core of what editors do. We all need to assume good faith at this point and move forward. Atom 14:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Atomaton&diff=prev&oldid=99503176 I noticed your rant talk on another user's talk page. Seems like you are not assuming good faith with me. I recommend you practice what you preach. Now, let us talk about the new non-nude image. -- MotherAmy 04:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to move on. I think we are on track with working together to work out images together. A consensus that may be a compromise, but that we can all agree on. That's what we will work toward, anyway. Everything is water under the bridge, let's discuss the different sections and the images that work to make the article high quality.
Atom
14:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Note to everyone. Do not remove or rearrange any image without gaining consensus or it is vandalism. -- MotherAmy 04:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Please vote below. Voting will last for at least seven days. We must have at least a total of ten votes.
Image:Cassatt Mary Maternite 1890.jpg
Listen, we are discussing all of the images in the article, what ones could be improved, what ones are redundant, which ones could be added, etc. Go to the area at the bottom of the galleries at Talk:Breast/sandbox and there is a layout of the individual sections and discussion of images in the context of each section. See my comments(opinion) about this, and other images at that link, towards the bottom.
Our goal is to reach a consensus. Voting does not reach consensus, it is only a method for taking a straw poll of whether consensus exists or not. After we talk about the many aspects of the images and debate various aspects we will all come to an agreement on what we are okay with. Please contribute at Talk:Breast/sandbox. Atom 13:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Why does this article only focus on human breasts? ( 89.240.74.127 09:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC))
I'd like to see broader coverage, including discussing the male breast, and other animals than humans. Atom 15:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the sandbox, originally located at Breast/sandbox, to Talk:Breast/sandbox. Under all circumstances, sandboxes like this should be kept out of the article namespace because it isn't an article; most are located in a subpage of the article's talk, as this one now is. I've tagged the redirect currently at Breast/sandbox for deletion, and I'm leaving this message to make sure there is minimal confusion, and no mistaken recreation - the new location is in the deletion summary, as I requested, anyways. [11] Cheers, Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 12:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks for the assistance. I hadn't realized I had done that. Of course, you are correct. I appreciate it. Atom 14:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I was considering asking for a peer review in order to get comments to help improve the article. I see that we have a peer review from some time back archived. Those comments still seem to apply, and so we should fix those issues first, and then ask for a peer review.
Here are the comments:
I think this article needs to be thoroughly reviewed and vetted to ensure the quality of the information presented there. --evrik 02:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Convert the list in "Disorders of the breasts" to prose. CG 21:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll start looking at the citations, and the places missing them. If anyone wants to work on the disorders of the breast, that would be great. Atom 15:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
How are you suppose to pronounce "breasts", is the s silent? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Siodine ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
I added a link in the "External links" section to a documentary about breasts called Busting Out. This was reverted by ArmadilloFromHell, but I think it's a perfectly valid resource (although naturally you would have to track down the documentary in order to see it). It's the winner of numerous rewards (see the web site for details), and airs occasionally on Showtime (must be in the US to see this page. Any thoughts? Ciotog 20:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The first photo looks like regular normal breasts. The woman might be pregnant -- I believe whoever says she is -- but it doesn't look particularly like a pregnant woman's breasts. The caption seems like an excuse for having the photo there. Maybe readers don't know what breasts look like, and that's why this article has so many photos, and needs one right at the beginning.
As the director of a research center on women's and kids health, we actually get emails from girls and women of all ages worried because their breasts don't look perfect. So, let's not have a wikipedia article contributing to that.
If the purpose of the photos is to educate, how about using some photos from this website, showing a diversity rather than mostly idealized versions: http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery.php
I found the comments about "some people think that older women's breasts look unattractive" offensive. And, I don't think it adds anything to the article.
If we're going to have a section on plastic surgery, then I would like to add some sociological analyses from books about the American culture's obsession with "perfect breasts" as well as psychological studies showing that women who undergo breast augmentation tend to feel worse about themselves and their lives than women who don't. There are 5 studies showing that women who undergo breast augmentation are twice as likely to kill themselves as other plastic surgery patients and other women of the same age and social class. But frankly, it was easier to just delete the 3 sentences about breast augmentation rather than add a few paragraphs. I didn't revise the content on breast reconstruction.
By the way, I was at a meeting with pediatricians today, who told me that 13-year old boys are using illegal drugs so that they can develop a 6-pack. If this continues, boys will be just as depressed about how they look as girls are.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drzuckerman ( talk • contribs) .
inframammary line? Theirs no article about it...And its mentioned.-- 64.121.1.55 02:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
A number of other editors have left the version on plastic surgery which you keep changing. THe version as it is now is accurate. Because you or some other plastic surgeons will operate on a teenager, does not make it consensus, or appropriate. Jance 16:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
New research of the anatomy of the human breast has overturned some of the data in this article. See breast anatomy for details.
I was thinking maybe you have too many pictures of the same body part, turning the article into more of a "boobie gallery" than a legit article. (this unsigned statement was made by Harmsc12 at 20:28, 4 December 2006)
Is there any reason to have more than one photo of the breasts of a pregnant woman? Where did this first photo come from? It may have been there a long time, but does that make it a good thing? Jance 23:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I am glad to know that I am not the only one (or two) that find it objectionable. What about one of the other photos or diagrams below (excluding the photo captioned "normal breasts".) What about the photo of the breast anatomy? That is more appropriate and does not look like a "boobie gallery". Jance 23:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll take your word for it that you think that photo is inappropriate, Jance, but I honestly don't see how. It's a high quality non-pornographic photograph. I don't understand...what would be appropriate? (BTW, if you want to see really inappropriate photos, you should see some of the stuff people have added that I've reverted.) -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 23:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The purpose is to illustrate the subject of the article. There should be a lead picture here for the same reason there's a lead picture in Hand, Foot, Hair, Automobile, Fixed-wing aircraft...anything you can point to. Turning the question around, why should there not be a lead picture in this article? -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs) 01:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
For the record, my desire is not to censor, and I do not think the showing of breasts, or any body part for that matter, "hurts children" as one editor suggested. I do wonder about this choice, for different reasons. Jance 02:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
No, you are correct and I was mistaken. The photo does not say "normal" but instead "human breasts". My original edit did not suggest a substitute, but I did after you made your first comment. I suggested the diagram of the breast anatomy, or even perhaps a more realistic photo of breasts (the lead picture is indeed good quality, but does not look like most non-altered breasts, in my opinion.) If you or others are wedded to that photo, leave it. Out of curiosity, I did search for "penis" in Wiki, and I note that it has no lead photo. The very few photos that are there are far more realistic than what is here for breasts. There is also no discussion of penile implant, although that is done, albeit not as frequently as breast implants. It is not that big of a deal though, and I don't think it is worth arguing about. Jance 02:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't read the entire debate above, but I read some of it. I have some expertise in recognizing breast implants, though such expertise is fairly common. The common traits of breast implants are:
Now that you mention it, the breasts in the lead image do look slightly fake, but they are certainly not conclusively fake. I do not object to the lead image, but I do object to it being called 'pregnant', because a pregnant belly can not be seen in the picture.
Embryoglio 10:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Jim, do you think that the diagram is acceptable for a lead pic? As I said, "penis" does not even have a lead photo. I am not entirely sure that a large photo of either a penis or a breast is necessary to identify the object about what we are talking. It seems that Kasryn thinks we should also have a larg photo of a penis as a lead pic, but nobody else there seemed to think so. So I would like to get a consensus here, as well. Jance 22:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
--I think a diagram would be better than a big picture of a breast. It would probably even reduce perv traffic at this article, saving a bit of bandwidth for wikipedia.
The Anatomy section contains this sentence: "The rest of the breast is composed of connective tissue, i.e., adipose tissue (fat) and Cooper's ligaments."
This says that fat is a type of connective tissue. Is that medically correct? My understanding is that fat doesn't anchor anything to anything — it just sits there. Cognita 23:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I shuffled the photos around to include a subtle lead image and removed the redundant pregnant photos as the article looks more like a photo gallery and not an encyclopedic article on breast. -- I already forgot 08:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
User:I already forgot seems to have forgot that he/she said above "I'll leave this article to the regulars." and has returned to play the censorship game again. His/her last revert (image removal) had the odd explanation that breasts are unrelated to breastfeeding. Wow, that's a revelation. I'm not a regular nor an expert on the subject, but the image he seems intent on removing is valid and appropriate and shouldn't offend anyone (well maybe some fundamentalist religeous types who are offended by life). Cheers, Vsmith 01:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed the article a few days ago and I did not understand how the picture in question added value to the article. It was not unique, demonstrating some aspect of the subject as other photos already did. I considered editing it to make the article more concise, but did not. Now someone else has tried to remove it, apparently for similar reasoning. I don't think it is offensive, nor is it a bad photo, but it just doesn't seem to add any additional information to the article that is not already there in the other photos. We have no need to make a collection of breast photos, do we? I do note that there do not seem to be any male breast photos. Atom 02:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
More censorship talk. Any attempt to remove any image should be met with a vandalism warning. The picture in question adds value because different pictures shows different types of shapes and sizes. If you do not like the picture in question then go ahead and take your top off and yeah -- show us what you got. -- MotherAmy 02:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I have put back the references to studies highlighting the difficulty post-operative women have in breastfeeding removed by Droliver. The link between breastfeeding and subsequent child development is sufficiently important for this issue to be highlighted. As medical practitoners, responsible plastic surgeons will welcome the info being referenced. They would agree that any woman planning to have children someday should think long and hard before opting for elective breast surgery. ( Pworms 17:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC))
I've created an archive, if I've accidentlly removed a still active discussion, please restore it. (I did this under an IP address because I wasn't logged in) -- Honeymane Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam 01:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
We do not need these pictures on Wikipedia they should all be taken off. Anyone can access these because Wikipedia is not blocked by internet filters because it was not made to be a porn site. We seriously should take these pictures down. It is in no way necessary to have these for anyone but the perverts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Douglas Bradford Oliver ( talk • contribs).
Turbo Ronin 20:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Oh come on. Kids are learning about this stuff in school by 7th grade. Only someone with a perverted mind such as yourself would be offended by anatomical pictures.
The addition of another image by user:Nemeton is disruptive. Three other editors have clearly said that the image is not desired in the article. I am taking the opportunity to explain why to you at this time.
Your manner of adding an image into the article without discussing it first, especially as a lede image, and then reverting three other editors seems more trollish and disruptive than complementary to the editing process. Please desist. Atom 05:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Said user has twice blanked the image
which contrasts with the previous image in the shapes that it demonstrates.
He/she even posted the following message to my talk page, which makes incivil accusations of making false accusations of vandalism:
-Yet the person that initiated an edit war was him/herself, such that the above statement is incoherent.
Consensus does not apply to persistent blanking vandalism either. Furthermore, discussion is used to remove additions, not to make additions. So, if there are no objections to including informative images in this article by anyone other than User:I already forgot or other users that have a clear pro-censorship bias, then I will continue to revert User:I already forgot's blanking vandalism.
Embryoglio 23:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what dispute you have with I already forgot or any other user, but the image you have here needs to be discussed before we add it to the article. If you read the history, as you probably are aware, that there are a number of editors who participate in this article, and are sensitive to any changes of images for any reason. Your addition of this image, which looks very interesting, should be discussed before it is added so that the editors can gain consensus as to how this interesting image could increase the quality of the article. If images of breasts were just added continuously we would have an article that was a collection of images of womens breasts. That is not our goal. If you could explain how you perceive that this image will add to the quality of the article by supporting a currently existing section that has no image, or by adding additional information to the article, that would be nice.
My opinion is that although the image is visually interesting, it doesn't seem to add any intrinsic information not already in the article. If we allow addition of an image based purely on it's uniqueness, we will become a collection of images, as nearly every womens breats are unique. As interesting as it may seem to have an article that was a collection of every woman's breasts, I am not sure that in practice it would be as intereting or valuable as it sounds. I am open to the possibility that my opinion is wrong, and there is something about the image (other than it being unique and different than the other images) that I am missing. Atom 23:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Atomaton, my post clearly states "if there are no objections to including informative images in this article by anyone other than
User:I already forgot or other users that have a clear pro-censorship bias "
I was referring primarily to you, and possibly also Jance.
Furthermore, your statements make no sense at all. You imply that this is just a random image, yet it clearly demonstrates a general breast type, as described in the caption. You state that the image gives no information, yet it gives no less information than any other image in the article. You state that the image is merely unique and interesting, yet it demonstrates a prime example of a general breast type, which simultaneously demonstrates three different traits in one picture (which conveniently contrast with the 3 opposite traits in the ptosis picture) so as to demonstrate a wide diversity of breast types with minimal photos. In conclusion, you make multiple arguments that are completely inapplicable to the image in question, as if you were arguing against a very different image.
Also, you and User:I already forgot know full well that you are the only 2 'regulars' that edit this article, so acheiving consensus is not possible, because not enough people will even read this. Therefore a request for consensus is ridiculous and is clearly intended to delay the inclusion of this image indefinately.
Embryoglio 00:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for you input. The guideline that I am applying is one we have been working on at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality called Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines.
Additional images should add additional information:
Some articles have an abundance of images, more than really is needed to make the point. Public nudity might be one of these, where Naturism seems about right. Anytime a new image is proposed to be added, or is added without discussion, we can put it on the talk page, and begin a discussion about adding it. The main focus should be whether the new proposed image adds quality to the article, and is a better choice than alternatives to illustrate the given point.
The best way to gain consensus on this article would be to present the topic on the talk pages, discuss how the image will be used and the merits of the image, and see what kind of response you get from others. You approach has been somewhat different, in that you threw the image in there without prior discussion, and then attacked the first person who dared to revert your change.
As I said previously, we are not attempting to collect womens breast images that represent every characteristic. The fact that the image that you bring forward has three interesting characteristics is not a sufficient reason for inclusion in the article. I asked before if you could explain how this image is significant, what additional information of value it would bring to the article, or what image you think it would replace. Your response was combatative, rather than assuming good faith of the other editors.
I've tried to patiently explain that you need to get a consensus, as many people edit this article.
Thanks, Atom 02:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
You are making nearly the exact same statements that I already responded to; and are again attempting to falsely portray the image by acting as if you are arguing against a completely different image.
Now you falsely portray 3 traits of breast diversity in a single image, appropriately in the section 'shape in support' (it doesn't get any more relevant than that) as not being a informative.
I am quite familiar with the policy AGF, and I know that it no longer applies when an edittor has shown clear bad faith, as you have. It is also a violation of the AGF policy to make false accusations of violating AGF, which you have now done.
As you can clearly see, I have already shifted from reverting to discussion before you have made your last response. My response that you have responded to is itself proof of that. Anyway, consensus has already formed in favor of including the images, particularly the new one that I added. It is also rather uncivil of you to accuse me of being arbitrarily combattive, and of being a person that tries peoples' patience, not to mention your other false accusations against me on this talk page and on the admin's noticeboard. I have been rather patient with your deceptive behaviors, interacting with you with great civility and soft wording. So, I request that you cease such behavior.
Thanks, Embryoglio 05:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Breast&diff=next&oldid=94188978 The user who I already forgot has shown a clear pattern of ongoing removal of breast images. Go through the history section and check for your self. The edit warrring has removed pictures without consensus which is a HUGE VIOLATION of policy. Before removing images consensus must be reached. In order to maintain Wikipedian policy we must put back the images that were LOST due to EDIT WAR! -- MotherAmy 00:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Stop removing images (personal attack removed) 75.69.207.170 01:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I generally agree that
User:I already forgot, as well as
User:Atomaton have shown a clear pattern of persistent blanking vandalism on this article. Forgot has even made a gross personal attack by calling MotherAmy a troll, and by generally calling one's enemies trolls and sockpupprts. Forgot has even made uncivil false accusations on my talk page.
This is one of the top 100 most-viewed articles? For the record, I have made a successful request for semi-protection on this article. That will protect it from the IP vandals, but unfortunately it does not protect from vandalism by User:I already forgot or User:Atomaton, who are classified as established users. Well, at least I solved part of the problem. Forgot- MotherAmy's inclusions are sometimes unnecessary or in the wrong section, but calling her, and your enemies in general, 'trolls' and/or 'sockpuppets' is an entirely inappropriate and baseless personal attack, which is clearly intended to compensate for your own and Atomaton's lack of intrinsic logical support for your position. Forgot has also deleted the comment by 75.69.207.170 , which I restored.
There is a clear consensus between MotherAmy, Embryoglio (myself), Honeymane, and 75.69.207.170 for the inclusion of the images that you have deleted. I am actually rather surprised that so many people even noticed this section of the talk page, and so quickly too. So, Forgot, if you and/or Automaton continue to delete images, particularly "Image:Breast_shape_type-_lengthwise_growth_and_angled_end.jpg|thumb|right|Breasts with a high length-to-base ratio, angled ends, and a straight upper part" , then you will be in violation of consensus and WP:OWN .
Embryoglio 03:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the anon's input carries somewhat less weight, but there is clearly a consensus. If you do not like the result, then you may choose to simply voice your opposition to it, rather than trying to skirt consensus by invalidating your opponent's input. Embryoglio 05:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Good, then you do not give any weight to the input of Forgot or Atomaton either, though I think that persistent vandals should be given less weight than random vandals. As for your second sentence, I have already replied to it in my last reply, as you are basically repeating yourself, though all of us except for the anon ARE established. Embryoglio 06:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
We have begun a process to gain consensus, whether we had it or not is no longer relevant. No one has removed the lede image, at any time, to my knowledge. It's the same one that has been there for several months, at least. Please join the discussion, see below. The "poorly drawn" image you refer to is the one that Embryoglio added, I believe. Atom 23:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
"Your persisting incivility, on the other hand, makes your arguments less convincing (not to mention your constant accusations). "
-Xyzzy, that false accusation of me is a violation of the policy against lies, which are classified as a serious breach of civility. Also, any attempt to characterize a user badly in order to discredit their arguments regardless of their content is a personal attack. Furthermore, do not think that a lie will gain more weight if it is repeated by multiple people that are attempting to own this article, in violation of WP:OWN. Ultimately, doing so will only reveal your own deceptiveness. Embryoglio 07:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
-If that highly derogatory and deceptive reply is not uncivil, then nothing is. Embryoglio 07:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking various editors, particularly User:Embryoglio to stop edit warring and discuss the issues on the talk page. I find the type of language and method being used to be non productive and disruptive.
Also, I added a warning on User:Embryoglio for violation of the three revert rule. Please stop reverting other editors work. Please see Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Etiquette.
Regards, Atom 02:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently, there are eight images in this article. Here's the thing about images - they take a long time for a person with an old or feeble computer to load. That means that this article might not get read at all by a lot of people. That's just one of the issues about having 8 images in an article. I like all the images, but something's got to give here. Nina Odell 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Several images have recently been added to the article, without discussion or comment. We try to keep the article down to useful and illustrative images, but several redundant images have been added. We are in the middle of trying to get a few editors to explain why their images are needed in the article also. The guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines are intended to try and avoid too many images, redundant images, and the like. But, one cannot enforce the guidelines, and the current editors adding images have chosen to not regard the guidelines. Atom 03:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Nina, all except the worst browsers have the option to not automatically load images. Also, the text of a page typically loads before images do, such that non-loading of images does not effect the transfer of the page itself. I also have a slow connection, and even I do not notice a problem, so perhaps your connection is exceptionally slow. I hope that this information has been helpful to you.
By the way, I support the guidelines against redundant images, but unfortunately, the user Atomaton who has just recently replied to you, does not, but is only using said policy as a cover to delete some of the most informative images. I'm sorry that he/she would try to use you like that, and I hope that that does not happen to you again on wikipedia.
Embryoglio 03:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
In the above talk section 'Edit warring, disruption and 3RR', the user Atomaton has resorted to making false accusations of me, most obvious of which is a 3RR violation. Making a 3RR violation requires 4 reverts, and I have only made one (see http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Breast&action=history) . False accusations don't get much more blatant than that. He/she has even put the false accusation on my talk page, so as to make it more convincing to third parties (yes, I am aware of that trick). He/she and User:I already forgot have even made a gang attack against me at Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard, in which they made false accusations against me.
I suspected that this would happen, because I am a very civil, unbiased, and convincing (in talk page discussions) opponent of theirs. Atomaton and Forgot therefore perceive me as the greatest threat of all of their opponents on this issue, and have therefore targetted me for destruction. Such behavior is utterly unacceptable on wikipedia, and if MotherAmy or some other user will support me, I will create user RfCs on those 2 users.
Embryoglio 04:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Armadillo, thank you for admitting that you also would have made such false accusations. Embryoglio 05:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Armadillo, I'm warning you to cease your behavior of threatening people and projecting your own policy violations onto them, just because they point out facts that you don't want to be exposed. Such revenge threats are a gross violation of WP:CIVIL, and you know it. Embryoglio 07:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I discussed the issues that Motheramy has been concerned about in some detail in my talk page, and I see that it is a seperate issue from the issues that Embryoglio states. I have attempted discourse with Embryoglio, but he does not seem interested in compromise, or working with others at this point.
MotherAmy's complaint is that a number of images were removed since late December with no discussion. Images that had been in the article for some time, apparently with consensus. In review of her complaint, I see that there is a good basis and foundation for that. As a method of working through the problems, I would like to deal with MotherAmy's issue first, and return the images to a state in late December. This is a compromise, and may, or may not resolve the issue with her, but it is a starting point for discussion about that from a point in time when everyone more or less had consensus. We can at that point discuss whether additional images need to be in the article, or if images in the article should be replaced, removed, or whatever. I would like to discuss and come to consensus before we make changes however. If we could leave the images and article alone until we come to that consensus, I would appreciate it. I am not adding or removing any images, but going back to this point in time here [2] from December 26th.
The issue with Embryoglio is much different, one of him trying to add an additional image, against consensus, and then incivility with anyone who disagrees with him. After we work through the issue with Motheramy, to her satisfaction hopefully, we can attempt civil discourse with Embryoglio to determine the value of his image relating to the quality of the article. Atom 13:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The images as I just changed should be the same as mentioned above, on December 26th. Please do not add or remove images until after we work through any issues with MotherAmy. Atom 13:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The image that MotherAmy and I are discussing is the Image:Breast 6 months pregnant.jpg which I find in the on November 3rd [3], November 11th [4], November 18th [5], November 25th [6], December 1st [7], December 8th [8], December 16th [9], and being removed on December 19th [10] by user:RexImperium with the edit summary "we only need one photo of pregnancy-stage breasts." There appears to be no dicussion of the removal in the talk pages regarding that.
Based on that, I'm going to return the image to the article, so that we can move onward with discussing the existing content and images, so that we don't keep Embryoglio waiting too long.
Atom 22:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
"I have attempted discourse withEmbryoglio, but he does not seem interested in compromise, or working with others at this point." "incivility with anyone who disagrees with him."
-Those are lies, which can be clearly disproven by viewing my statements. Lies are a serious violation of the civility policy. Atomaton, just because you oppose the inclusion of the new image is no excuse to uncivilly make up lies about your opponent.
As for the 6 months pregnant image, I am in full agreement with RexImperium that that image is redundant and comparatively uninformative, and should therefore be deleted.
By the way, MotherAmy once restored the new image that I added after it was deleted, but you neglected to mention that.
Embryoglio 05:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Should this article include an informative image of a contrasting breast shape type (which is displayed below, complete with caption), or should it be forbidden from the article? It is the second image below that has been deleted by the opponents; the first image (which is already included in the article) is shown below for the sake of demonstrating the contrast in shape type. The images are from the top of the section 'shape and support'.
Currently, there is already consensus in favor of inclusion (shown in the section 'censorship' on this talk page), but the opponents have resorted to making underhanded false accusations of policy violation of the inclusion proponents. Thus I will see if an RfC will lead to an even more overwhelming consensus, or not. Embryoglio
Of course this should be included. To not include it would be an unnecessary censoring of Wikipedia. .V. 06:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
For RfC respondents, please see above for discussion of a compromise under way. There are two issues. The first are images that have been part of the page for some time, but were removed without consensus recently. As a compromise we have returned those images, and are now discussing the issue of how many images the article may need, and how many is too many.
The second issue is the addition of an image by Embryoglio. Generally we have followed the guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines, and want any additional images to add quality to the article. There has been no issue of censorship, but only of editorial oversight of the quality of the article. The image might possibly be a valuable addition to the article, but several editors have been unable to have civil discourse with Embryoglio. This is indicated in the talk pages above, you can come to your own conclusions about that.
In this most recent action Motheramy and I have had substantive discussions on my talk page, and have agreed to work the issue out with other editors, and find consensus. A recent re-addition of images that she has indicated is the start of that discussion. We have agreed to not add or remove images to the article until a general consensus among all editors can be discussed and reached. After that time, we can attempt to discuss the merits of the image that Embryoglio has provided. Atom 13:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we have all of the images that MotherAmy wanted. We can discuss the status of the images now, whether to add or remove any, etc. See below. Atom 03:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
"several editors have been unable to have civil discourse with Embryoglio.
This is indicated in the talk pages above, you can come to your own conclusions about that."
-Yet another uncivil lie from User:Atomaton. I encourage all third parties to read my statements, and to pay attention closely, rather than be biased by Atomaton's display of overconfidence as he/she intends. It has been Atomaton's tactic to use a facade of civility and constructiveness to make his/her highly uncivil deceptions more convincing. Don't take my word for it; just read his statements and mine. I have already described the relevance and informativeness of the image (which is obvious, though). Rather than accept it, Atomaton has merely repeated his/her same oppositional statements about the image that are clearly not true of the image. I pointed that out, and now Atomaton is on an attack campaign against me because he doesn't like the fact that I exposed such deceptions. Apparently he/she is doing this out of spite because I had originally restored the image without consulting him first, such that he/she is making a gross violation of WP:POINT. Atomaton has even vandalized the entry of this dispute on the RfC page, and made lies on the talk page thereof, so as to direct people away from the dispute about the image that I added to people that don't already know of said dispute.
As for resolving the dispute of whether or not to include the image that I added, a supermajority has already been reached in favor of inclusion, a fact which Atomaton is now attempting to distract from. A 100 percent consensus in this case is impossible because I have already presented my response to Atomaton's opposition, and Atomaton did not change his/her mind, but just repeated the same statements. The supermajority consists of Embryoglio (myself), MotherAmy (who restored the image before it was deleted again), Honeymane, and .V. .
Embryoglio 07:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
To RFC participants: We have a page for discussion of changes to the breast article that lists all of the available images we could find that might be related. Included in that list is the image that the user above has mentioned. So far no one has recommended it for inclusion, although it is in the list of images that are under consideration, not on the list of images that are not under consideration. So, as for a "supermajority" for the image. Well, as you can see on these pages, it hasn't even been discussed for inclusion, and certainly the three users mentioned haven't ever voted on any of the images. So, it would be hard to imagine how a consensus could have been reached when it hasn't even been discussed yet. And even so, three users out of the many that edit these pages would hardly be a majority, much less a consensus. The discussion that is currently underway is at Talk:Breast/sandbox Atom 14:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Please join a discussion of the images to be used for this article. ( Click here to participate)
Atom 02:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed
Image:EroticBreastsCake.jpg from consideration, I don't think it would be good for the article. Also, I think we should remove
Image:Bildhuggarkonst, Fången moder, af Sinding, Nordisk familjebok.png as well, as I don't see how it would be useful.
This image Image:Cassatt Mary Maternite 1890.jpg could be a good addition though.
Has anyone else look at these yet?
Are there images in the current article that are redundant, or don't offer vsalue to the article?
Atom 03:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, this image Image:Cassatt Mary Maternite 1890.jpg is a good addition. Go ahead and add it in as a test run now to see if it works for this article. Problably somewhere towards the bottom right half area would be a nice placement for this image. -- MotherAmy 03:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, look at all of the other images too. We can't add them all. See the link above to look at the list. We want to get input from a variety of other people as well. Atom 04:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I understand your logic. What I mean though is that there are alot of other editors who need to come to consensus with adding any images, this or any other. Also, some of them may say that there are already too many images, or that this new image should replace one of the others, etc. See the guidelines that are part of that discussion. We will need to wait some time to get a broad range of people who participate and come to consensus. Atom 04:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I already looked at the other images. We don't need to wait for this one. It is not a naked picture. It is just a drawing. So, please, I recommend to go ahead and add it in now. Its a high quality image. Thanks. -- MotherAmy 04:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this discussion. We all agree that we are not going to censor images. Images in the article should primarily be about the breast. I consider breast feeding to be a different, but connected and related topic that can be here. Pictures of other parts of the anatomy do not belong here. Second, our goal is a high quality article. We have a number of sections with text that explains or informs about the breast. Having a strong lede image, and an image for many, or maybe even ALL of the sections would be great. The images should support the section it is with to add to the section, give it depth, help the reader identify quickly what is said. Diagrams can help do that also. In general, we do not need more than one image per section. In the rare case (one that most of us editors would agree with) more than one may be appropriate if it brings something unique and special. What we have all agreed is that we don't want to be just a collection of images. The process of us discussing the images, and what goes where, and which images are best for the quality of the article and then coming to consensus is what we are working on now. This type of selection of images is not censorship, but editorial consideration, and the core of what editors do. We all need to assume good faith at this point and move forward. Atom 14:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Atomaton&diff=prev&oldid=99503176 I noticed your rant talk on another user's talk page. Seems like you are not assuming good faith with me. I recommend you practice what you preach. Now, let us talk about the new non-nude image. -- MotherAmy 04:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to move on. I think we are on track with working together to work out images together. A consensus that may be a compromise, but that we can all agree on. That's what we will work toward, anyway. Everything is water under the bridge, let's discuss the different sections and the images that work to make the article high quality.
Atom
14:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Note to everyone. Do not remove or rearrange any image without gaining consensus or it is vandalism. -- MotherAmy 04:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Please vote below. Voting will last for at least seven days. We must have at least a total of ten votes.
Image:Cassatt Mary Maternite 1890.jpg
Listen, we are discussing all of the images in the article, what ones could be improved, what ones are redundant, which ones could be added, etc. Go to the area at the bottom of the galleries at Talk:Breast/sandbox and there is a layout of the individual sections and discussion of images in the context of each section. See my comments(opinion) about this, and other images at that link, towards the bottom.
Our goal is to reach a consensus. Voting does not reach consensus, it is only a method for taking a straw poll of whether consensus exists or not. After we talk about the many aspects of the images and debate various aspects we will all come to an agreement on what we are okay with. Please contribute at Talk:Breast/sandbox. Atom 13:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Why does this article only focus on human breasts? ( 89.240.74.127 09:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC))
I'd like to see broader coverage, including discussing the male breast, and other animals than humans. Atom 15:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I have moved the sandbox, originally located at Breast/sandbox, to Talk:Breast/sandbox. Under all circumstances, sandboxes like this should be kept out of the article namespace because it isn't an article; most are located in a subpage of the article's talk, as this one now is. I've tagged the redirect currently at Breast/sandbox for deletion, and I'm leaving this message to make sure there is minimal confusion, and no mistaken recreation - the new location is in the deletion summary, as I requested, anyways. [11] Cheers, Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 12:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks for the assistance. I hadn't realized I had done that. Of course, you are correct. I appreciate it. Atom 14:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I was considering asking for a peer review in order to get comments to help improve the article. I see that we have a peer review from some time back archived. Those comments still seem to apply, and so we should fix those issues first, and then ask for a peer review.
Here are the comments:
I think this article needs to be thoroughly reviewed and vetted to ensure the quality of the information presented there. --evrik 02:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Convert the list in "Disorders of the breasts" to prose. CG 21:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll start looking at the citations, and the places missing them. If anyone wants to work on the disorders of the breast, that would be great. Atom 15:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
How are you suppose to pronounce "breasts", is the s silent? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Siodine ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
I added a link in the "External links" section to a documentary about breasts called Busting Out. This was reverted by ArmadilloFromHell, but I think it's a perfectly valid resource (although naturally you would have to track down the documentary in order to see it). It's the winner of numerous rewards (see the web site for details), and airs occasionally on Showtime (must be in the US to see this page. Any thoughts? Ciotog 20:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)