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In accordance with Wikipedia's Original Research policy, musical works that might feature notable breaks, but that do not yet have reliable sources confirming this, are excluded from this article. Such works should be included in the Unsourced list until sources are found. |
An instrumental break for pre- hip-hop popular music usually denotes a section where a musician takes a solo, perhaps only a few bars in length. This is actually quite different from the hip-hop definition, although the hip-hop custom of a break derives from this practice which goes back centuries - in the eighteenth century such an improvised passage in a musical piece was called a cadenza, so there is linkage. However, "Instrumental break" should not direct here - it's really a different thing altogether, with a history that at least encompasses the entirety of recorded popular music in the twentieth century, and requires its own article. PJtP ( talk) 21:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Originally the page said that Cash Crew were the first to sample the break from 'Take me to the Mardi Gras', but it was actually Rick Rubin in 'Peter Piper', a 1986 Run DMC track. Cash Crew did a re-construct of the beat on a drum machine, not the same thing at all.
I wouldnt concider underoath, parkway drive, nor bring me the horizon notable in any way for their breakdowns, where is the few of the first such as dark angel's darkness descends? Or metallica's one, or earth crisis's wrath of sanity Slayer's angel of death? Those where the few of the first —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.203.98 ( talk) 21:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Please add evidence of notability before adding these to the article. As it stands it's just a list of songs that contain breaks and therefore indiscriminate / unencyclopedic. An external link to a
reliable source detailing its significance or an existing WP article about the break itself (or a section in a song article evidencing the significance of the break) should be the minimum requirement.
Deizio
talk
15:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The above removed as uncited. Hyacinth 04:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I object to the redirection of "breakdown section", which is a separate and distinct terminology and the parent concept behind break as in breakdance. Breakdown Section is the highest and most proper terminology for this usage, and it has its own singular origin and usage. Start asking REAL DJs what the most appropriate term is before you take the entire language into your own hands and move things out of order. What about discussion on such matters? - tednor
You don't need to cite self-evident and uncontested information, so have a DJ or two read this mess and sort out the terminology for the entries.-- Tednor 20:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
to which I give you this: http://www.disco-disco.com/tributes/tom.shtml as only ONE in a multitude of potential sources (as this is the source for the two points you have specifically contested)-- Tednor 17:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
furthermore, "the breakdown" is shorthand for "the breakdown section", so breakdown section needs to be the highest usage of the term. "Breakdown" itself is extremely vague: it can be a verb, it can refer to a nervous breakdown, an automotive crisis, etc... "Breakdown Section" specifically refers to the location on a dance recording that follows the second chorus, there is no conflicting usage for this exact term.-- Tednor 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The above statement is exactly why i wrote the two paragraphs you removed!-- Tednor 16:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
So neither of you would mind if I move the material on breakdowns to a new article, "Breakdown section", as Tednor suggested? InnocuousPseudonym 21:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section above as it is about breaks, which are covered above in the article. Hyacinth 01:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
(note: breakdown sections are not used in this way ('between numbers'), they occur within a single composition exactly as described by myself and others who preceded me on this point (to precede and heighten the climax of a composition, as well as ease the mixing of two records and give the floor some righteous groove to dance to)-- Tednor 16:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC))
I don't what the guys is saying about this, but it looks like he's saying that taking a part from one record and using it to make another is not creative (?) I don't get it.
This accomplishment belongs firmly to Tom Moulton, the inventor of the dance remix, and not DJ Kool Herc. Furthermore, any mention of Kool Herc needs to firmly state the apocryphal nature of his existence. As someone who read the music weeklies religiously at the end of the 1980s, I will tell you flat-out that Herc went from being a myth to being re-constructed via second-hand accounts to slowly and magically evolving into a person that everybody seems to have known first hand. The chronology of the articles documenting Herc will verify this fact. At any rate, he was by no means the first person to string sections of rhythm together to make the record play longer. He was perhaps the most noted STREET dj to focus on breakdowns alone in his repertoire, a mention that I would not contest, provided it is accompanied by the fact that he is more aprocryphal than concrete. Furthermore, common sense tells us that plenty of Dj's were mixing between two copies of a record, that's what discoteques were all about with the birth of the remix and the possibilities it presented. To state such things as "the first to buy two copies of a record to mix between them" is pure hogwash!-- Tednor 21:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I think something's been lost in translation from the source used to credit Tom Moulton, to this article. I have never heard the term "immaculate" (which literally means "spotless") used in a musical context, and whoever wrote that live performances tend to rise in pitch does not know what s/he's talking about. Most instruments cannot rise in pitch (if anything, they flatten rather than sharpen), first of all. I think what happened is this: Moulton probably was referring to the common musical device whereby the latter sections of a track might MODULATE (not "immaculate") to a different, usually higher, key. (Listen to any Barry Manilow record. On second thought, don't.) So if you're trying to cut the later part of the record in to the first, it'll be in a different key. That modulation can be obscured by (as Moulton did) using non-pitched musical information, such as percussion. (Nowadays, digital editing can merely change the pitch w/o changing the tempo...) My guess is that whoever transcribed the Moulton interview wasn't familiar with the term "modulate" (or hell, maybe Moulton wasn't - and misused the word "immaculate"). But I think that section of this article should be edited...unless someone can come up with a second citation for the use of "immaculate" as a musical term meaning "to rise in pitch." 2fs ( talk) 05:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The above was removed anonymously with no reason given. Hyacinth 00:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Breaks have a long history in Jazz and popular dance music- why no mention of that? (Citation: "50 Syncopated Breaks for 1st Violin" Keith, Prowse & co, as well as similar works by the same publisher) Saxophobia ( talk) 03:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Which book is it that Brewster and Broughton wrote which seems to say everything you need to know about breaks on page 79? -- Abdull 09:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Both of the above quotes have been repeatedly removed without discussion on this page. I am readding them as clear reasons for removal have yet to be given. The first quote is an explanation of the difference between breaks and breakdowns. The second provides the only examples of what is featured in a breakdown. Hyacinth 22:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
How so? Hyacinth ( talk) 01:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps some expert could Talk:Chord_(music)#Analyze_a_rap_song and list it as an example if there is anything special in it. Jidanni ( talk) 01:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Earl Scruggs is usually cited as the author of both "Earl's Breakdown" and "Foggy Mountain Breakdown". For example, on every album/CD I have ever owned with either song on it, the author is invariably cited as Earl Scruggs. Moreover, I cannot find Clemente Delgado referenced in conjunction with either song anywhere on the Web. If there is no further discussion of this soon, I feel I ought to edit the reference. Donmillsbridge ( talk) 14:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Break has another meaning in music... the change in tone between, for example, registers of the clarinet. Where should this information go, I wonder? Andrewa ( talk) 05:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, it looked like some kid had decided to put his top 40 favourite hardcore breakdowns in as "notable breaks". I've HEAVILY abridged it for conciseness' sake. Kung Foo ( talk) 11:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Also, someone wrote that Meshuggah were the first group responsible for "breakbeats" as we know them today. Usually I hear people attribute that influence to Suffocation which wrote breakdowns in the early 90s. I'm going to delete the Meshuggah blurb. It doesn't seem to help the article, it's unsourced, and it simply isn't true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.216.86.91 ( talk) 17:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
To be fair, I'm surprised Breakdowns_(Hardcore and Metal Music) isn't an article of its own. I mean they dominated more than a decade's worth of music, and were predominant in more than two. An article about them would surely fall under Wikipedia's new submission guidelines (well known, credibly sourced [sickdrummer mag, interviews, kerrang]). I could frame it now: " a break down traditionally begins with a slowed pace in the drums, usually playing the snares at half time, along with playing the cymbals at full time in regular pace, sometimes accompanied by blast beats on the bass drum. Palm muted riffs are incorporated, played at a considerably slower pace than the preceding section of the song, with the bass usually following the rhythm parts... while breakdown or " breaks" have always existed in music, their usage in hardcore and metal having noticeably evolved to its modern state since the 1980's.." I don't know how to word it properly for an encyclopedia, or how I can expand it to longer than a stub, and I would need to find proper sources beforehand, but I'll try, and imo it deserves an article. My argument is that BDs are as, actually more, ubiquitous to metal and hard music as the Wall_of_Sound was to oldies pop, which is documented on its own. Once the article is made, I would suggest noting something about their use under a See Also: section in Palm mute put See Alsos: where applicable in Deathcore, Metalcore, Technical_Death_Metal, Deathgrind, Death Metal, Angel_of_Death_(song) etc. , and maybe disambiguate Drop_(music) to Breakdowns(Hardcore metal music)#Bass_Drops. Someone mentioned history before, and all I'll say on the matter is that before Pantera in 1990 and Suffocation in 1991, BDs were significantly different than their current usage. Though me saying something like "they provided the template used by most metalcore/hard core and deathcore bands used today,respectively, being significantly more similar than dissimilar as opposed to BDs used by artists that came before them" is bot very encyclopedic. Once again I'll try to track down a source for that. 69.125.62.77 ( talk) 16:49, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
How and where is this article unbalanced? Hyacinth ( talk) 01:27, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
How, where, and why is the factual accuracy of this article disputed? Hyacinth ( talk) 04:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Why and where does this section need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I removed the above as uncited. Hyacinth ( talk) 22:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I removed the above because I'm pretty sure it's not in the source cited. Hyacinth ( talk) 22:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I have initiated a formal RM action to move Musical scale to Scale (music). Contributions and comments would be very welcome; decisions of this kind could affect the choice of title for many music theory articles.
Noetica Tea? 00:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
In accordance with Wikipedia's Original Research policy, musical works that might feature notable breaks, but that do not yet have reliable sources confirming this, are excluded from this article. Such works should be included in the Unsourced list until sources are found. |
An instrumental break for pre- hip-hop popular music usually denotes a section where a musician takes a solo, perhaps only a few bars in length. This is actually quite different from the hip-hop definition, although the hip-hop custom of a break derives from this practice which goes back centuries - in the eighteenth century such an improvised passage in a musical piece was called a cadenza, so there is linkage. However, "Instrumental break" should not direct here - it's really a different thing altogether, with a history that at least encompasses the entirety of recorded popular music in the twentieth century, and requires its own article. PJtP ( talk) 21:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Originally the page said that Cash Crew were the first to sample the break from 'Take me to the Mardi Gras', but it was actually Rick Rubin in 'Peter Piper', a 1986 Run DMC track. Cash Crew did a re-construct of the beat on a drum machine, not the same thing at all.
I wouldnt concider underoath, parkway drive, nor bring me the horizon notable in any way for their breakdowns, where is the few of the first such as dark angel's darkness descends? Or metallica's one, or earth crisis's wrath of sanity Slayer's angel of death? Those where the few of the first —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.203.98 ( talk) 21:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Please add evidence of notability before adding these to the article. As it stands it's just a list of songs that contain breaks and therefore indiscriminate / unencyclopedic. An external link to a
reliable source detailing its significance or an existing WP article about the break itself (or a section in a song article evidencing the significance of the break) should be the minimum requirement.
Deizio
talk
15:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The above removed as uncited. Hyacinth 04:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I object to the redirection of "breakdown section", which is a separate and distinct terminology and the parent concept behind break as in breakdance. Breakdown Section is the highest and most proper terminology for this usage, and it has its own singular origin and usage. Start asking REAL DJs what the most appropriate term is before you take the entire language into your own hands and move things out of order. What about discussion on such matters? - tednor
You don't need to cite self-evident and uncontested information, so have a DJ or two read this mess and sort out the terminology for the entries.-- Tednor 20:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
to which I give you this: http://www.disco-disco.com/tributes/tom.shtml as only ONE in a multitude of potential sources (as this is the source for the two points you have specifically contested)-- Tednor 17:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
furthermore, "the breakdown" is shorthand for "the breakdown section", so breakdown section needs to be the highest usage of the term. "Breakdown" itself is extremely vague: it can be a verb, it can refer to a nervous breakdown, an automotive crisis, etc... "Breakdown Section" specifically refers to the location on a dance recording that follows the second chorus, there is no conflicting usage for this exact term.-- Tednor 21:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The above statement is exactly why i wrote the two paragraphs you removed!-- Tednor 16:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
So neither of you would mind if I move the material on breakdowns to a new article, "Breakdown section", as Tednor suggested? InnocuousPseudonym 21:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section above as it is about breaks, which are covered above in the article. Hyacinth 01:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
(note: breakdown sections are not used in this way ('between numbers'), they occur within a single composition exactly as described by myself and others who preceded me on this point (to precede and heighten the climax of a composition, as well as ease the mixing of two records and give the floor some righteous groove to dance to)-- Tednor 16:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC))
I don't what the guys is saying about this, but it looks like he's saying that taking a part from one record and using it to make another is not creative (?) I don't get it.
This accomplishment belongs firmly to Tom Moulton, the inventor of the dance remix, and not DJ Kool Herc. Furthermore, any mention of Kool Herc needs to firmly state the apocryphal nature of his existence. As someone who read the music weeklies religiously at the end of the 1980s, I will tell you flat-out that Herc went from being a myth to being re-constructed via second-hand accounts to slowly and magically evolving into a person that everybody seems to have known first hand. The chronology of the articles documenting Herc will verify this fact. At any rate, he was by no means the first person to string sections of rhythm together to make the record play longer. He was perhaps the most noted STREET dj to focus on breakdowns alone in his repertoire, a mention that I would not contest, provided it is accompanied by the fact that he is more aprocryphal than concrete. Furthermore, common sense tells us that plenty of Dj's were mixing between two copies of a record, that's what discoteques were all about with the birth of the remix and the possibilities it presented. To state such things as "the first to buy two copies of a record to mix between them" is pure hogwash!-- Tednor 21:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I think something's been lost in translation from the source used to credit Tom Moulton, to this article. I have never heard the term "immaculate" (which literally means "spotless") used in a musical context, and whoever wrote that live performances tend to rise in pitch does not know what s/he's talking about. Most instruments cannot rise in pitch (if anything, they flatten rather than sharpen), first of all. I think what happened is this: Moulton probably was referring to the common musical device whereby the latter sections of a track might MODULATE (not "immaculate") to a different, usually higher, key. (Listen to any Barry Manilow record. On second thought, don't.) So if you're trying to cut the later part of the record in to the first, it'll be in a different key. That modulation can be obscured by (as Moulton did) using non-pitched musical information, such as percussion. (Nowadays, digital editing can merely change the pitch w/o changing the tempo...) My guess is that whoever transcribed the Moulton interview wasn't familiar with the term "modulate" (or hell, maybe Moulton wasn't - and misused the word "immaculate"). But I think that section of this article should be edited...unless someone can come up with a second citation for the use of "immaculate" as a musical term meaning "to rise in pitch." 2fs ( talk) 05:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The above was removed anonymously with no reason given. Hyacinth 00:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Breaks have a long history in Jazz and popular dance music- why no mention of that? (Citation: "50 Syncopated Breaks for 1st Violin" Keith, Prowse & co, as well as similar works by the same publisher) Saxophobia ( talk) 03:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Which book is it that Brewster and Broughton wrote which seems to say everything you need to know about breaks on page 79? -- Abdull 09:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Both of the above quotes have been repeatedly removed without discussion on this page. I am readding them as clear reasons for removal have yet to be given. The first quote is an explanation of the difference between breaks and breakdowns. The second provides the only examples of what is featured in a breakdown. Hyacinth 22:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
How so? Hyacinth ( talk) 01:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps some expert could Talk:Chord_(music)#Analyze_a_rap_song and list it as an example if there is anything special in it. Jidanni ( talk) 01:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Earl Scruggs is usually cited as the author of both "Earl's Breakdown" and "Foggy Mountain Breakdown". For example, on every album/CD I have ever owned with either song on it, the author is invariably cited as Earl Scruggs. Moreover, I cannot find Clemente Delgado referenced in conjunction with either song anywhere on the Web. If there is no further discussion of this soon, I feel I ought to edit the reference. Donmillsbridge ( talk) 14:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Break has another meaning in music... the change in tone between, for example, registers of the clarinet. Where should this information go, I wonder? Andrewa ( talk) 05:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, it looked like some kid had decided to put his top 40 favourite hardcore breakdowns in as "notable breaks". I've HEAVILY abridged it for conciseness' sake. Kung Foo ( talk) 11:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Also, someone wrote that Meshuggah were the first group responsible for "breakbeats" as we know them today. Usually I hear people attribute that influence to Suffocation which wrote breakdowns in the early 90s. I'm going to delete the Meshuggah blurb. It doesn't seem to help the article, it's unsourced, and it simply isn't true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.216.86.91 ( talk) 17:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
To be fair, I'm surprised Breakdowns_(Hardcore and Metal Music) isn't an article of its own. I mean they dominated more than a decade's worth of music, and were predominant in more than two. An article about them would surely fall under Wikipedia's new submission guidelines (well known, credibly sourced [sickdrummer mag, interviews, kerrang]). I could frame it now: " a break down traditionally begins with a slowed pace in the drums, usually playing the snares at half time, along with playing the cymbals at full time in regular pace, sometimes accompanied by blast beats on the bass drum. Palm muted riffs are incorporated, played at a considerably slower pace than the preceding section of the song, with the bass usually following the rhythm parts... while breakdown or " breaks" have always existed in music, their usage in hardcore and metal having noticeably evolved to its modern state since the 1980's.." I don't know how to word it properly for an encyclopedia, or how I can expand it to longer than a stub, and I would need to find proper sources beforehand, but I'll try, and imo it deserves an article. My argument is that BDs are as, actually more, ubiquitous to metal and hard music as the Wall_of_Sound was to oldies pop, which is documented on its own. Once the article is made, I would suggest noting something about their use under a See Also: section in Palm mute put See Alsos: where applicable in Deathcore, Metalcore, Technical_Death_Metal, Deathgrind, Death Metal, Angel_of_Death_(song) etc. , and maybe disambiguate Drop_(music) to Breakdowns(Hardcore metal music)#Bass_Drops. Someone mentioned history before, and all I'll say on the matter is that before Pantera in 1990 and Suffocation in 1991, BDs were significantly different than their current usage. Though me saying something like "they provided the template used by most metalcore/hard core and deathcore bands used today,respectively, being significantly more similar than dissimilar as opposed to BDs used by artists that came before them" is bot very encyclopedic. Once again I'll try to track down a source for that. 69.125.62.77 ( talk) 16:49, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
How and where is this article unbalanced? Hyacinth ( talk) 01:27, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
How, where, and why is the factual accuracy of this article disputed? Hyacinth ( talk) 04:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Why and where does this section need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I removed the above as uncited. Hyacinth ( talk) 22:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I removed the above because I'm pretty sure it's not in the source cited. Hyacinth ( talk) 22:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I have initiated a formal RM action to move Musical scale to Scale (music). Contributions and comments would be very welcome; decisions of this kind could affect the choice of title for many music theory articles.
Noetica Tea? 00:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)