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Some of the most frequently cited scholarly sources are being neglected:
The table constructed above, and much of the "data' presented, seems to assume that (1) races are discrete/exclusive, (2) are marked by diferent colors, (3) which signify descent from people from distinct parts of the world. In fact, these are all matters of scientific debate. These three basic principles are part of an ideology that emerged in Europe in the post-Colombian period. Today it takes the form of related ideologies in Europe, Hispanophone America, Lusophone America, Anglophone America, each of which are different because of different histories. The question of how best to represent how people identify themselves racialy is also a matter of debate. States (and some scientists) generally try to reduce and simplify racial categories. This does not make such categories "real" and the degree to which people actually think in these terms is a matter of still another debate. I don't think throwing around percentages means anything until there has been a discussion of the debates that have informed how race is represented, and how representations of race are understood. Which is what the most recent sources above are doing. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Rubenstein, while I think that we certainly should have a discussion about ethnicity, race, color, etc., in Brazil, I would say that this article is not the place for it. It should be discussed in Pardo, Caboclo, White Brazilian, African Brazilian, Black Brazilian, Crioulo, Sarará, Mameluco, Cafuzo, etc, and, especially, in Ethnic groups in Brazil. Here we should just say what the available sources state about the issue - caboclos are the majority of the population of the Northern Region and Northeastern hinterland. The readers who want to know what a caboclo is, whether the word exists and is used by Brazilians at large or by anthropologists, and what are the newest discoveries and discussions by anthropologists, historians, ethnographists, geneticists, etc. concerning this category, should be redirected to those articles. Ninguém ( talk) 13:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Here, a whole book (of 2006) about "nonsence": [2].
In the demographics section of this article, there is a passage I wrote:
As you can see, there are dubious tags in it. The reason claimed by another editor is that:
However, at least eight different Brazilian authors disagree with this view. To them, not only Caboclo (a descendant of a white and a Indian) is a name commonly used but it is also the majority of the population of those regions. One of those authors is Caio Prado Júnior, still a main reference up to this day to matters related to the Brazilian people formation and the other is Melhem Adas whose book is used in Brazilian high schools and the newest edition is from 2004.
So, it's simple: the passage should stay or should it be removed and changed for the 85% black population info? -- Lecen ( talk) 03:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
About the 85% Blacks in North or Northeastern, this is because IBGE counts Blacks and Pardos as Blacks. It's not a surprise, since light Mulattos are counted as Whites in Brazil, only the dark Mulattoes are counted as Pardos and only the Congolese-looking people are counted as Blacks. Strange in a country that imported over 4 million slaves from Africa, and only 6% of the population is self-reported to be Black, while the country received only 5-6 million Europeans, and nearly 50% are self-reported as White.
Nobody needs to look Norwegian or Finish to be White in Brazil. If you are a little light, then you're always non-Black and usually White. But to be Black you have to look as if you came straight from Congo or Nigeria. The "Whiten" ideology is really alive here.
In Brazil black is the very dark black, the mulatto is the Pardo and then is half white, and if the skin color is a little lighter, the person is incorporated into the white community (Darcy Ribeiro)
"The blacks have reached a maximum of 5.6 million, while those who define themselves as Pardo (Mulatto) would be 13.7 million, and the whites (who are mainly mixed) amount to 32 million." (Ribeiro)
This also explains, in part, the whitening of the Brazilians, since mixed people of European and Indian heritage make up a light brown type, that in the eyes and sensitivity of any Brazilian, seem to be pure Whites. (Darcy Ribeiro).
Self-reported ancestry of people from Rio de Janeiro, by race or skin color (2000 survey) (Telles-Race in Another America: the significance of skin color in Brazil) | |||
---|---|---|---|
Ancestry | White | Pardo | Black |
European only | 48% | 6% | - |
African only | - | 12% | 25% |
Amerindian only | - | 2% | - |
African and European (Mulatto) | 23% | 34% | 31% |
Amerindian and European (Caboclo) | 14% | 6% | - |
African and Amerindian | - | 4% | 9% |
African, Amerindian and European (juçara) | 15% | 36% | 35% |
Total | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Any African | 38% | 86% | 100% |
Moreover, in Rio de Janeiro, the majority of Pardos claim to be a mix of African, European and Amerindian. They are not Mulattos or Caboclos, but a mix of them. Then, the binary classification of Pardos in Mulattos on one side and Caboclos on the other side is ridiculous, since most people in Rio, and possibily in the rest of Brazil, are and claim to be a mix of African, European and Amerindian. And yes, Darcy Ribeiro does use the Caboclo term in his book, but more as a cultural term, not as a racial word. A large part of people in Northern Brazil are descended from Northeastern migrants, who "became" Caboclos after settling in the Amazon Rainforest. Moreover, there is a large population of African descent in Northern Brazil, even though this is usually ignored.
In 1833 the Province of Pará (Northern Brazil) had 119,877 inhabitants, being 32,751 Amerindians and 29,977 black slaves. Mixed-race people were 42,000. The White minority was 15,000, over half of them Portuguese.("A hora da desforra", por Júlio José Chiavenato, Revista História Viva, nº 45, páginas 84 a 91)
As one can see, the Northern region historically had a majority of Amerindians, Blacks and mixed people, and a really small minority of Whites. It's wrong to claim people from Northern Brazil to be racially only a mix of Whites and Indians, since historical censuses show that Black slaves were very numerous there and they did not "disappear", their descendants still live there, racially mixed with other people. With the more recent influx of Northeastern migrants to the North, it's not a surprise that the Black element grew even more. By the way, Northern Brazil is home to only about 10% of the Brazilian population, and they have a small impact in the ethnic compostion of the whole Brazil.
Conclusion: the Caboclo majority is not true, since this group is historically mixed with Black people. Moreover, the minority that is of strict European and Amerindian ancestry is mostly counted as Whites, not as Pardos. Most Pardos are of African descent and are counted as Blacks by the IBGE. By the way, stop trying to devide the Brazilian people in different races or ethnic groups, because this is not possible since everybody is mixed and racial categories are not well-defined in this country. Leave the census data and some informations about Amerindians, Black slaves and European/Asian immigration. The definition of who is a "majority" or "minority" is dubious and often wrong. Opinoso ( talk) 17:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
It should definitely stay. All sources agree that the majority of the population of the Northern Region is cabocla. All sources agree that the majority of the population in the hinterland of the Northeastern Region is cabocla. Ninguém ( talk) 20:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
That's just plainly wrong.
The IBGE counts people; this includes counting people regarding to their perceived "cor ou raça". When it does this, the IBGE gives people five options:
(Notice that "parda" and "preta" are two distinct options.)
Besides that, people also are counted as "Sem Declaração" (undeclared), when they, for any reason, reject those categories (or perhaps just forget to answer this item).
It is not the business of the IBGE to "count pardos as Blacks", and it doesn't do that.
Other Brazilian governmental agency, namely the SEPPIR (Secretaria Especial de Políticas de Promoção da Igualdade Racial) do, for their own reasons, group pardos and pretos (as people who need affirmative action from the Brazilian State). It doesn't by any stretch of imagination mean that pardos and pretos are the same thing. Ninguém ( talk) 13:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
This is again totally mistaken.
The IBGE doesn't count light Mulattos as Whites. The IBGE counts self declarations on "cor ou raça". If a light Mulatto considers him/herself White, he/she will be counted as White; but if he/she considers him/herself as Black, he/she will be counted as Black.
Whether light Mulattos count theirselves as White or not, the IBGE has no statement about it.
Sérgio Pena's paper discussed below seems to imply otherwise. According to it, people self-declared as pretos in Rio de Janeiro have, on the average, 50.9% Subsaharian genes; people self-declared as pardos have 23.6% Subsaharian genes. So apparently what is counted as pretos are Mulattos properly, and what is counted as pardos are what would be called in the United States "quadroons".
Evidently, this could be distorted by the fact that the genes for skin colour are a diminute part of human genome. But either there are actual sources to support Opinoso's weirdly phrased ("Congolese-looking"? I wonder whether any other editor could refer to people in this way without being reported into ANI and accused of something very dirty) claim, or it is mere original research, that cannot be taken into account when editing Wikipedia. Ninguém ( talk) 17:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Does he?
We cans see it here: [3]
Doesn't seem more cultural than racial.
It seems at least as racial as cultural: a society of mestiços originated from the mixing of Portuguese men and Indian women - which created a particular "cultural variety". Ninguém ( talk) 19:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
According to Sérgio Pena, the main expert on Brazilian genetics, Telles is wrong to label "pardos" as a group of predominant African ancestry. According to a study conducted by Pena and Suarez-Kurtz among Rio de Janeiro "pardos", the "pardos" were found to be predominantly European, at a rate of about 70% (autosomal %, the overall pic, the sum of a person's ancestry; not mtDNA or yDNA, which gives indication of single lines, far back), and the rest made of African and Native American contributions respectively. Addionally, in a sample of about 335 Brazilians from Rio de Janeiro, the "blacks" tested would be on average 41,8% European and 7,3% Native American in ancestry, thus roughly 50% non African in ancestry, autosomal ancestry (the sum of the ancestors, the overall profile)( http://www.laboratoriogene.com.br/geneImprensa/2009/pensamento.pdf). Would it be appropriate to characterize them as "Africans" then? They have multiple ancestries. And the "whites" from Rio de Janeiro would be roughly 90% European, and about roughly only 5% SSA (the African on par with the Iberian source, and practically within the noise range of the test), this way contradicting the often quoted studies posted so far. It is a proof of the high levels of diversity in Brazil. Again, it is important to stress that the diversity of the Brazilian heritage is a result of European colonialism. Unfortunately the government and scholars (except for the leading geneticists) still use the "colonial terminology" too much extensively. "Pardo", "white" and "black" are words invented by Europeans, for their own purposes and agendas. They do not describe a biological reality, they are social constructs. It does not mean that the oppressed peoples of Brazil should be not protected. Of course they should and they have been given help by the Brazilian government. Most Brazilians are the result of a brutal process led by Europe, just like the rest of America, and much of the rest of the world. To give too much significance to the European invented terminology is to be a hostage of the European colonialist mentality. Telles is of no real help, he is a biased foreign scholar. Darcy Ribeiro is another story, he is a great anthropologist, and his works are still major reference when it comes to Brazil. The quotes by Darcy Ribeiro (when not distorted) are always welcomed.
Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC).
Instead of Telles, I prefer Darcy Ribeiro and Joel Rufino dos Santos.
But, shocking as it is, Jews are (usually) Whites - and in the case they are not, the are Black, or Asian, or Amerindian, or some mix of those. There is no such thing as a "Jewish race".
Perhaps there are no such things "Asian", "Pacific Islander", "Aboriginal" or "Berber" genes?
Or perhaps, on the contrary, Gypsies, Jews, Turks, and Moors are White people, or people of mixed but predominantly White "race"?
But why would the Portuguese and Spaniards want to "hide" their Moorish, Jewish or Arabic ancestry? What would they have to gain by "hiding" that? And from whom would they "hide" it - especially when it is a fact that everybody already knows? Ninguém ( talk) 14:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of days ago user Opinoso complained of a supposed partiality in the text written by me in the section “History” (Sections: Native Brazilians and early Portuguese settlers; Territorial expansion; Independence and Empire; and Emperor Pedro II reign were done by me. I was going to start working on the sections about the Republican Era when this issue appeared). Yesterday night I decided to erase or transfer (to other articles) the controversial passages and thus prevent a greater problem among us. I also considerably diminished the size of the text, leaving it simpler, direct and straightforward. However, user Opinoso added informations that in my opinion are incorrect and are unnecessary. Below I transcribe them followed by my opinion:
1) “but against the uneven social structure that it imposed”
2) “from 30 to 40% of the population of the Province of Grão-Pará was killed)”
3) War of the Triple Alliance,[120] which left more than 300,000 dead)
4) “During the reign of Pedro II, the Brazilian economy was dependent on the export of coffee. The economic center was concentrated in the provinces of Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. The rest of the country had a poor and stagnant economy.”
Year | Cacao (tons exported) |
---|---|
1820s | 11,000 tons |
1880 | 73,500 tons |
Year | Rubber (tons exported) |
1827 | 81 tons |
1852 | 1,632 tons |
1900 | 24,301,452 tons |
Year | Coffe (tons exported) |
1821-60 | 3,377,000 tons |
1861-89 | 6,804,000 tons |
Year | Sugar (tons exported) |
1821-25 | 41,174 tons |
1881-85 | 238,074 tons |
5) “Work force on coffee plantations was based on African slavery.”
6) “The reign of Pedro II was the period that Brazil imported the largest numbers of slaves from Africa”
7) “and in 1864 as many as 1,715,000 people were living under slavery in Brazil.”
8) “Brazil was the last Western country to abolish slavery”
9) “because the Emperor did not want to risk antagonizing slave owners, who formed the elite of the country”
10) “By the end of the 19th century, most of the Brazilian population was composed of people of African descent.”
Conclusion: All passages should be erased or transferred to other more appropriate articles. And if, it is ok to everyone, I would like to continue writing the text about the history of the republican era (I already finished the colonial and imperial era as you can see). -- Lecen ( talk) 19:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree, but for a different reason: if there are 6 million whites, 6 million mixed (3/3) and 2 million blacks that means that the MAJORITY, 9 million, were whites (6+3) while descendants of Africans were at most 5 million (2+3), really less because among the "mixed" there are many who were half indian.-- 79.154.37.79 ( talk) 02:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Debresser ( talk) 19:33, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
After Lecen posted a reply on my talkpage, I'd like to add the following:
2) If this is too detailed for a relatively unimportant war the remove.
4) This is the correct course of action unless Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard would disqualify the source used by Opinoso.
6) Might be of minor importance, but 8) should definitely stay. Debresser ( talk) 20:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Some comments of the things you wrote there, lets see:
It's funny how the negative points of the Empire (large-scale use of slavery, poverty of the majority of the Brazilianm population, Brazilian economy remained agragarian and dependent on coffee exports while the "civilized" countries were going under a process of industrialization) are being removed from the article, while only the supposed positive points are still there.
1)Cabanos war was against the social structure imposed by the Monarchy, which was the same structure imposed in colonial Brazil or in the early Republic: a small minority of the country manipulating its richness, while the vast majority of Brazilians were living under poverty. Darcy Ribeiro described it as "a genocide with the goal of slaughtering the caboclo population". Caboclo were the native inhabitantd of the Amazon. It was against the "but against the uneven social structure that it imposed". Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
2)The deaths were caused directly by the war. The sentence by Lence "In reality, the deaths were caused by famine and illnesses that were resulted from the provincial anarchy and economical collapse" is his unsouced personal opinion. Even if the people died because of illnesses or famine, the deaths were brought by the war. Many Jews died of famine in concentration camps during World War II, but the causes of the death does not erase the fact that it was brought by the war, nothing else caused the deaths. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
3)It does not say that only Brazilians died in the war. During this war, the majority of the Paraguayan population (mostly civilians) was smashed by the Brazilian troops. Some sources claim that 90% of the male population of Paraguay died, another horrible aspect of the Empire as well as thousands of Argentines and Brazilians, which is ommited here (what a surprise). Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
4)Original resources conducted by user Lecen. The fact that the economy of Brazil had a great growth during the Empire was natural, since the population of the Empire increased by millions, and its capacity to produce more and more also grew. This is natural. However, the growth of the economy does not mean anything. The richness remained concentrated in the three richest provinces of the country, due to coffee exports, while the rest of the country had a decadent economy and great poverty. According to Darcy Ribeiro, in the 1890s coffee exports represented 61.5% of Brazilian economy, and all the production was centered in Minas Gerais, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. The other productions represented together only less than 40% of Brazilian economy. Then, Brazilian economy was based on coffee, since over half of it came from this product. Other products, such as sugar, cacau or cotton had a minor importance in Brazilian economy. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
5) Very important information. This part of the article only talks about the Emperor or the elite of the country. The Emperor was a single person, and the elite were a few thousands. Old conception of History. The modern History talks about the life of ordinary people. The history of the Africans in Brazil, and their importance, is trying to be ommited there. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
6)Yes, it was. The Brazilian History is divided in different periods, such as Capitanias do Mar (1516-1532), Capitanias hereditárias (1532-1549), Governo-Geral (1549-1580) and many others. The period of reign of Pedro II was the period, in all Brazilian History, that imported the largest numbers of slaves and the period that more people were used as slaves in Brazil. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
7) We're talking about Brazil, not the United States. If there were 4 million slaves in the USA this is their problem. The USA is not a model to be followed, and no other country is. We're talking about Brazil, and the figure about the slaves is very important. If there are figures about economy, figures about human being being used as slaves are even more importants. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
8)Brazil was the last Western country. User Lecen replaced "Western" by "American", probably trying to diminish the how latecomer Emperor Pedro II was to abolish slavery. Correct passage changed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
9)The information is sourced (Enciclopedia Britannica), and you cannot make original sources and erase sourced informations. The Emperor was afraid of abolishing slavery, because he did not want to lose the support of the elite of slave owners that fed him and his luxurious way of life, while the majority of Brazilians were starving to death. He could abolish slavery as soon as possible, but he waited until 1888 to abolish it, the last country in the Wester world. Pedro II even decided to take a trip to Europe and sent his daughter, Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, to abolish slavery, because he was afraid to do so for fear of reprisals from the elite.
10)Another original resource conducted by Lecen. Where is your resourced to claim the Caboclos are the majority in Northeastern Brazil? The main mixture in Brazil was between Whites and Blacks, and most Pardos were Mulatos (African and European mixture). Caboclos are only found in significant numbers in Northern Brazil, not in Northeastern Brazil. Most people in Northeastern Brazil are either Black or Mulato (where may have some Amerindian mixture). Caboclos in Northeastern Brazil are mostly found in the Sertão, which is not as populate as the coastal region, where the African element in predominant. Why is Lecen trying to remove informations about the history of Black Brazilians? The history of the ordinary people, which includes Black Brazilians, are much more important than details about the personal life of Emperor Pedro II, which was a single person. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
Conclusion: user Lecen is doing original resource with books that are not avaible for us to read. Then, he is choosing to post only the positive points of the Monarchy from these books, while the negative points, which may be listed on those books as well, he choose not to post. Lecen is removing my sourced contributions, because they show that the Monarchy was not so wonderful as he is trying to sell and he is trying, in this talk page, to demoralize my contributions. However, he does not use sources to demoralize my contributions, but his personal opinions and original resourced about History (which is not allowed at all).
It's obvious that user Lecen has some kind of obssession with the Empire of Brazil and with Emperor Pedro II, since all his contributions in Wikipedia are dedicated to talk about the Monarchy of Brazil and his positive points. From this perspective, his contributions are biased, since he has a personal admiration for the monarchy. He should use his knowledge about the subjetc, which he claims to be huge, to post neutral informations about it. However, he choose to post biased informations about the Monarchy (only citing the positive points, and trying to remove the negative ones). On the other, when it comes about the Republic, Lecen choose to list only the negative points of it, and ommited the positive points. This is quite obvious when you read the part about the Emperor (good things only) and when you read the part about Republic (negative points only).
All my contributions are sourced, and I do not use sources from books people cannot read, making it possible to manipulate informations to feed a personal point of view. I won't let user Lecen remove my contributions because he "does not like them". If Lecen wants to remove informations, he is free to remove his own contributions, not from others. In fact, he erased the entire History part of the article, which was already here for months, and replaced them with all these biased changes. I still think that the original History part should come back, and these biased and controversial changes should be removed. Opinoso ( talk) 00:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
1) As usual, Opinoso uses as source Darcy Ribeiro. And only him. About the Cabanagem, the details about the war should be handled on its article, not in here. The rebellion was not even important to Brazilian history outcome.
2) To compare the rebellion with the Holocaust is huge mistake. And no, it is not unsourced.
3) Casualties of war should be handled on its respective article, not in the small section about Brazilian history. And no, 300,000 Paraguayans were not killed by Brazilians but instead by famine and diseases. See Doratio, Francisco. Maldita Guerra. São Paulo: Companhia das Letras, 2002 (best book about the War of the Triple Alliance in Portuguese). Anyway, you should talk about that on the article about the war.
4) It is not original resources. The work of famous Brazilian and British hitorians such as Roderick J. Barman, Pedro Calmon, Sérgio Buarque de Holanda, José Murilo de Carvalho and many others cannot be themed "original resource". Once again, you use Darcy Ribeiro as source. And it's always only him. I cannot believe that this author knows more about Brazilian history then all the historians I have mentioned before.
5) The life of Brazilian slaves should be told in the article Slavery in Brazil, not in here. Why only the slaves are important to Brazilian population? What about the Portuguese? Or the Indians? Or the European Immigrants (that are not even mentioned in the section and you don´t bother to ask for their inclusion!).
6) There is no period called "Capitanias do Mar". That kind of information should, once again, be on the article about slavery in Brazil. Or else, we are going to need to also put the number of how many immigrants came to Brazil. It just doesn´t fit in here!
7) But there are no figures about economy in the section! Why do you inssist so much to make the section about Brazilian history themed only on slavery?
8) No, it wasn´t. There was still salvery in African countries up to the end of the 20th century. And Africa is "Western", not "Eastern". Brazil was, indeed, the last american country to end slavery.
9) He couldn´t abolish slavey anytime he wanted. The country had laws, and lawas were created by a Parliament! My God, it is more than clear that you don´t known absolutly nothing about history of Brazil!
10) They were and still are. I am from the Northeast. I know the region. Large afro-descendant populations can be found in Bahia, Maranhão, Rio de Janeiro and Minas Gerais. All the remaining Northern and Northeastern states has a large caboclo population. You don´t even know the demographics of Brazil. Wonderful.
Lecen has some kind of obssession with the Empire of Brazil and with Emperor Pedro II
You were the only one who was against my texts. I was for a whole week changing the texts and no one else complained. All of these is happening now because of you and I trying to make peace in here but you keep attacking me for no reason.
And what obssession is that? Do I have obssession with the colonial era too? Because I wrote about it also. And you are the one who keeps trying to find "downside" opinions about this era of brazilian history at all cost. Why so much trouble?
since he has a personal admiration for the monarchy.
Do you know me to accuse me of such thing?
about the Monarchy (only citing the positive points, and trying to remove the negative ones). On the other, when it comes about the Republic, Lecen choose to list only the negative points of it, and ommited the positive points.
But I still did not begin working on the Republican era texts! I am desperately trying to end this issue on the monarchy era to begin working on the republic era!
All my contributions are sourced, and I do not use sources from books people cannot read, making it possible to manipulate informations to feed a personal point of view.
What? What about your Darcy Ribeiro sources?! You only use a pocketbook that was wrote by this author. Your author is good enough, but all those famous historians that I use aren´t? And I used several author so that I wouldn´t make the same mistake as yours, to use only one. - -- Lecen ( talk) 00:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
If you have any problem with a source being reliable or not or if an information is not important enough, there are certain places in Wikipedia dedicated to discuss these subjects. You are not allowed to make your own conclusions, and remove (sourced) informations according to your desire. If you have some kind of personal admiration for Monarchy or not, keep it to yourself. You are not allowed to use Wikipedia as a way to sell the informations you want like, and hide the informations you deslike.
You use reliable sources from books to feed your personal point of view, collecting all the positive informations about Emperor Pedro II that you could find, ommiting the negative points you found there, and trying to remove the sourced (and real) contributions from other users, because they are not compatible with brand new History of Brazil that you are trying to create here.
This article already had a very good and stable History session, which was removed by user Lecen, without any justification. It is amazing how you desperately try to delete informations about African slaves or the absolute poverty of the Brazilian people. Perhaps because a country of blacks and poor is far from a prototype designed by some people. But I have to tell you: Brazil was, and still is, a country of Blacks and poor, not a country of nobles and Emperors living a luxurious life. These were, and still are, the tiny minority of the population. Their place in Brazilian History is reduced to their percentage small percentage in the population.
And yes, most Brazilians were, and still are, of African descent. According to a genetic study, 86% of Brazilians have DNA indicating African ancestry. [4] Most White Brazilians have African descent, virtually all Pardos and Blacks too. Only the descendants of more recent immigrants may not have African ancestry. When you try to diminish the African influence in Brazil, it only shows your biased and "strange" point of view.
I will conclude my participation on this discussion with the following information, taken from the best-seller book "1808" by author Laurentino Gomes (so I cannot be accused of only using Darcy Ribeiro as a source):
"In 1881, when the so called Saiva Law established for the first time the direct election for some legislative positions, only 1.5% of the population had voting rights. It was just the great merchants and landowners who could vote. Among the enormous mass of excluded people there were women, Blacks, Mulattos, the poor, the illiterate people and the destitute people in general".
Reign of Emperor Pedro II a period of prosperity and economic growth for Brazil? Maybe it was for the 1.5% elite of the country. For the 98.5% mass of poor, Blacks, Mulatos, women or illiterate people (the vast majority of Brazilians) it was a period of poverty and destitution. Opinoso ( talk) 15:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
OPINOSO IS NOT FAITHFUL TO HIS OWN SOURCES. HE CHANGES THEIR TRUE MEANING TO PROVE HIS OWN POINT OF VIEW. - -- Lecen ( talk) 16:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
And why are you using the genetic Portuguese influence in Brazil to dominish the Africa one? They do not erase each other. Why are you trying to hide the fact that most Brazilians have African ancestry? Do you have any problem with it? Also, why do you attack Darcy Ribeiro with such a big anger, trying to demoralize his intelectual capacity? It's not up to you to decide if an author is big enough. Keep your personal opinions to youself, they're not welcome here.
Now, I have to leave. I will date now. There's a life outside and I live in a beautiful country with many things to see. Bye-bye. Opinoso ( talk) 16:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Taking in consideration the suggestions found in here, and also Opinoso's, I have made new changes on the text on the section about Pedro II reign. Here goes the changes:
Added:
This is how I believe the article should be. It´s simple, direct and straightfoward. It mentions slavery clearly and even has a "see also" banner to anyone who wants to know more about it. See below:
Extended content
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Emperor Pedro II reign![]() As the new emperor could not exert his constitutional prerogatives as Emperor ( Executive and Moderating Power) until he reached majority, a regency was created. [28] Disputes between political factions that led to rebellions resulted in an unstable, almost anarchical, regency. [29] The rebellious factions, however, continued to uphold the throne of Pedro II as a way of giving the appearance of legitimacy to their actions (that is, they were not in revolt against the monarchy). The Cabanagem [30] the Sabinada [30] and the Balaiada, [30] [31] all followed this course, even though some declared the secession of the provinces as independent republics (but only so long as Pedro II was a minor). [32] The "generation of politicians who had come to power in the 1830s, following upon the abdication of Pedro I, had learned from bitter experience the difficulties and dangers of government. By 1840 they had lost all faith in their ability to rule the country on their own. They accepted Pedro II as an authority figure whose presence was indispensable for the country's survival." [33] Thus, Pedro II was prematurely declared of age and “Brazil was to enjoy nearly half a century of internal peace and rapid material progress.” [34] From then "onward the Empire’s stability and prosperity when compared to the turmoil and poverty of the Spanish American republics gave ample proof” of the emperor’s successful government [35] Brazil also won three international wars during his long reign of 58 years ( Platine War, [36] Uruguayan War [37] and War of the Triple Alliance). [38] The emperor, who never owned slaves, [39] also led the abolitionist campaign [40] that eventually extinguished slavery after a slow but steady process that went from the end of international traffic in 1850 [41] up to the complete abolition in 1888. [42] However, he "took too long to trespass the political obstacles” [43] and Brazil became the last american country to abolish slavery. [44] Slavery had been for decades in decline: in 1823, 29% of the Brazilian population were slaves; it fell to 24% in 1854; then to 15,2% in 1872; [45] and finally to less than 5% in 1887. [46] Brazil was a “prosperous and [internationally] respected” country [47] when the monarchy was overthrown in November 15, 1889. [48] There was no desire in Brazil (at least among the majority of its population) to change the form of government [49] and Pedro II was on the height of his popularity among his subjects. [50] [51] Pedro II, however, “bore prime, perhaps sole, responsibility for his own overthrown.” [52] After the death of his two male sons, he believed that “the imperial regime was destined to end with him.” [53] The emperor did not care about its fate [54] [55] and did nothing (nor allowed anyone) to prevent the military coup [56] that was backed by former slave owners that resented the abolition of slavery. [57] The monarchist reaction after the fall of the empire “was not small and even less its repression”. [58] |
Lecen is making things look too positive, while Opinoso is making things look too negative. Now how to be?
Both parties should at this point decide not to make any edits that do not have consensus. Otherwise the article will be protected, or users blocked.
How to have consensus when you disagree?
Settle on the opinions of uninvolved editors. I have outlined them above in detail for each of the ten points.
Note: please do not make personal accusations (even if they were correct), and respect each other's sources (in general a book is considered reliable unless it would be shown to be unreliable according to the policy guidelines). Without these two things you will never reach consensus. Good luck! Debresser ( talk) 06:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
References
Parra
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The economy information is totally biased. Its very obviouse that it only tries to show Brazil as a rich country. It uses GDP (PPP) information to state Brazil has one of the biggest economies in the world, but all informed people know that when comparing countries one should use the population variable and so it should be used GDP(PPP) per capita and not GDP (PPP). When using the correct information we can see that Brazil is even lower than many south american countries and are very far for being a rich country. The numbers can be easily found in the wiki List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita. The information should be added or even substitute the corrent one posted on the article to erase the biase and misleading information. 81.84.191.232 ( talk) 03:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
You are wrong to assume that a GDP (PPP) figure telling that Brazil is one of the biggest economies in the world (which we truly are) is meant to say that Brazilians are a rich people. There are very obvious economic issues in Brazil, which are largely related to the brutal European exploitation of our lands, which not only decimated the indigenous populations of Brazil, but also brought the slavery of millions of Africans who were employed in farms to produce basic products for Europeans to consume (like sugar f.e). We are working hard to solve it, but it is a very difficult problem to be dealt with successfully. The GDP per capita is a useful reference, and it should be used. It varies in Brazil from region to region, from social class to social class. The vast majority of South American billionaires are Brazilians. And so are the vast majority of South American multinational companies, like Gerdau and Odebrecht. Our economy has been predicted to become one of the five largest economies in the world in the decades ahead to come, and the GDP per capita will follow and grow. http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_countries_by_future_GDP_(PPP)_estimates http://www.chicagobooth.edu/alumni/clubs/pakistan/docs/next11dream-march%20'07-goldmansachs.pdf Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC).
I don't see the problem here. Both GDP and GDP per capita are given in the infobox. Also, please remember to be civil. Academic38 ( talk) 01:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to inform that i've already add the info about GDP (PPP) per capita and changed the value on the infobox. Im not very good with editing so fell free to better organize the information. To the above user: Thats exactly why i stated the GDP (PPP) is a misleading information, cause when you say "worlds second greatest economy" one is lead to belive it is in a matter of wealth. So when you say China is the second you should say "biggest" and not "greatest" and even the word biggest is misleading cause its has nothing to do with wealth. What i mean is that China is indeed a poor country, actually a very poor country, we can see that with GDP (PPP) per capita or GDP (nominal) per capita where China takes the 89 place. The high GDP (PPP) that puts China in the second place in the world is a consequence of the number of the population it has, the same situation as Brazil. GDP isn't any achivement as i already said, its simple the consequence of a big population. Thats why if you want to analyse the economy of a country using GDP you should use the per capita unit. 81.84.191.232 ( talk) 17:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk)
Well yes you were and are. You are being very biased in your opinons and very rude aswell. Cause in no way i was rude to anyone and you are being. I just came here to say to you, that the phrase you are always repeating was a response to someones comment so don't bring it like it was something that came from nowhere. One user made a comment blaming the europeans and the slavery and etc on their present day economic status. What i just said was that he should blame brazilians and their current system on those things cause Brazil is an independent country for so long and the slavery ended officially in 1888. This is not a rude comment and even if it was perceived by other as such i said in the next comment: "in no way i was rude to anyone and if i seemed to be i apologize 'cause that wasn't my intention at all. Im here just to discuss the GDP issue, not to fight." so please if you are gonna do a citation of me do a correct one. You are cleary in search of a fight and again this is not my "war". cya 81.84.191.232 ( talk) 18:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk)
Quote"Its a fact that when you are speaking in a country economic reality you should use GDP (PPP) per capita, because using simple the GDP (PPP) is very misleading about the economy real "size".
Quote"If someone is going to comment on the GDP of a country or you speak about the 2 indexs or if you want to speak about 1 you should use the GDP (PPP) per capita when you want to analyse the "size" of a country economy towards others".
I have not denied that our economy has major problems. Nor do I think that the article implies that having one of the largest economies in the world is an achievement. It is a fact that our economy is one of the largest economies in the world, however. If you care to read the studies I posted you will see that we have been predicted to be one of the five largest in the decades to come. We are already at the G-20. And we have been placed, along with Russia, India, and China, at the BRIC category, and it did not come out of nowhere. Qatar and Liechtenstein have one of the highest GDP (PPP) per capita rates in the world, and yet they are of no importance. Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk)
This is a very long discussion for a very small change in the article. WP:NOTAFORUM is very relevant here. 81.84.191.232's error fix is incorporated, and I have tweaked the wording slightly in the text. Academic38 ( talk) 21:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Some of the most frequently cited scholarly sources are being neglected:
The table constructed above, and much of the "data' presented, seems to assume that (1) races are discrete/exclusive, (2) are marked by diferent colors, (3) which signify descent from people from distinct parts of the world. In fact, these are all matters of scientific debate. These three basic principles are part of an ideology that emerged in Europe in the post-Colombian period. Today it takes the form of related ideologies in Europe, Hispanophone America, Lusophone America, Anglophone America, each of which are different because of different histories. The question of how best to represent how people identify themselves racialy is also a matter of debate. States (and some scientists) generally try to reduce and simplify racial categories. This does not make such categories "real" and the degree to which people actually think in these terms is a matter of still another debate. I don't think throwing around percentages means anything until there has been a discussion of the debates that have informed how race is represented, and how representations of race are understood. Which is what the most recent sources above are doing. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Rubenstein, while I think that we certainly should have a discussion about ethnicity, race, color, etc., in Brazil, I would say that this article is not the place for it. It should be discussed in Pardo, Caboclo, White Brazilian, African Brazilian, Black Brazilian, Crioulo, Sarará, Mameluco, Cafuzo, etc, and, especially, in Ethnic groups in Brazil. Here we should just say what the available sources state about the issue - caboclos are the majority of the population of the Northern Region and Northeastern hinterland. The readers who want to know what a caboclo is, whether the word exists and is used by Brazilians at large or by anthropologists, and what are the newest discoveries and discussions by anthropologists, historians, ethnographists, geneticists, etc. concerning this category, should be redirected to those articles. Ninguém ( talk) 13:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Here, a whole book (of 2006) about "nonsence": [2].
In the demographics section of this article, there is a passage I wrote:
As you can see, there are dubious tags in it. The reason claimed by another editor is that:
However, at least eight different Brazilian authors disagree with this view. To them, not only Caboclo (a descendant of a white and a Indian) is a name commonly used but it is also the majority of the population of those regions. One of those authors is Caio Prado Júnior, still a main reference up to this day to matters related to the Brazilian people formation and the other is Melhem Adas whose book is used in Brazilian high schools and the newest edition is from 2004.
So, it's simple: the passage should stay or should it be removed and changed for the 85% black population info? -- Lecen ( talk) 03:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
About the 85% Blacks in North or Northeastern, this is because IBGE counts Blacks and Pardos as Blacks. It's not a surprise, since light Mulattos are counted as Whites in Brazil, only the dark Mulattoes are counted as Pardos and only the Congolese-looking people are counted as Blacks. Strange in a country that imported over 4 million slaves from Africa, and only 6% of the population is self-reported to be Black, while the country received only 5-6 million Europeans, and nearly 50% are self-reported as White.
Nobody needs to look Norwegian or Finish to be White in Brazil. If you are a little light, then you're always non-Black and usually White. But to be Black you have to look as if you came straight from Congo or Nigeria. The "Whiten" ideology is really alive here.
In Brazil black is the very dark black, the mulatto is the Pardo and then is half white, and if the skin color is a little lighter, the person is incorporated into the white community (Darcy Ribeiro)
"The blacks have reached a maximum of 5.6 million, while those who define themselves as Pardo (Mulatto) would be 13.7 million, and the whites (who are mainly mixed) amount to 32 million." (Ribeiro)
This also explains, in part, the whitening of the Brazilians, since mixed people of European and Indian heritage make up a light brown type, that in the eyes and sensitivity of any Brazilian, seem to be pure Whites. (Darcy Ribeiro).
Self-reported ancestry of people from Rio de Janeiro, by race or skin color (2000 survey) (Telles-Race in Another America: the significance of skin color in Brazil) | |||
---|---|---|---|
Ancestry | White | Pardo | Black |
European only | 48% | 6% | - |
African only | - | 12% | 25% |
Amerindian only | - | 2% | - |
African and European (Mulatto) | 23% | 34% | 31% |
Amerindian and European (Caboclo) | 14% | 6% | - |
African and Amerindian | - | 4% | 9% |
African, Amerindian and European (juçara) | 15% | 36% | 35% |
Total | 100% | 100% | 100% |
Any African | 38% | 86% | 100% |
Moreover, in Rio de Janeiro, the majority of Pardos claim to be a mix of African, European and Amerindian. They are not Mulattos or Caboclos, but a mix of them. Then, the binary classification of Pardos in Mulattos on one side and Caboclos on the other side is ridiculous, since most people in Rio, and possibily in the rest of Brazil, are and claim to be a mix of African, European and Amerindian. And yes, Darcy Ribeiro does use the Caboclo term in his book, but more as a cultural term, not as a racial word. A large part of people in Northern Brazil are descended from Northeastern migrants, who "became" Caboclos after settling in the Amazon Rainforest. Moreover, there is a large population of African descent in Northern Brazil, even though this is usually ignored.
In 1833 the Province of Pará (Northern Brazil) had 119,877 inhabitants, being 32,751 Amerindians and 29,977 black slaves. Mixed-race people were 42,000. The White minority was 15,000, over half of them Portuguese.("A hora da desforra", por Júlio José Chiavenato, Revista História Viva, nº 45, páginas 84 a 91)
As one can see, the Northern region historically had a majority of Amerindians, Blacks and mixed people, and a really small minority of Whites. It's wrong to claim people from Northern Brazil to be racially only a mix of Whites and Indians, since historical censuses show that Black slaves were very numerous there and they did not "disappear", their descendants still live there, racially mixed with other people. With the more recent influx of Northeastern migrants to the North, it's not a surprise that the Black element grew even more. By the way, Northern Brazil is home to only about 10% of the Brazilian population, and they have a small impact in the ethnic compostion of the whole Brazil.
Conclusion: the Caboclo majority is not true, since this group is historically mixed with Black people. Moreover, the minority that is of strict European and Amerindian ancestry is mostly counted as Whites, not as Pardos. Most Pardos are of African descent and are counted as Blacks by the IBGE. By the way, stop trying to devide the Brazilian people in different races or ethnic groups, because this is not possible since everybody is mixed and racial categories are not well-defined in this country. Leave the census data and some informations about Amerindians, Black slaves and European/Asian immigration. The definition of who is a "majority" or "minority" is dubious and often wrong. Opinoso ( talk) 17:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
It should definitely stay. All sources agree that the majority of the population of the Northern Region is cabocla. All sources agree that the majority of the population in the hinterland of the Northeastern Region is cabocla. Ninguém ( talk) 20:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
That's just plainly wrong.
The IBGE counts people; this includes counting people regarding to their perceived "cor ou raça". When it does this, the IBGE gives people five options:
(Notice that "parda" and "preta" are two distinct options.)
Besides that, people also are counted as "Sem Declaração" (undeclared), when they, for any reason, reject those categories (or perhaps just forget to answer this item).
It is not the business of the IBGE to "count pardos as Blacks", and it doesn't do that.
Other Brazilian governmental agency, namely the SEPPIR (Secretaria Especial de Políticas de Promoção da Igualdade Racial) do, for their own reasons, group pardos and pretos (as people who need affirmative action from the Brazilian State). It doesn't by any stretch of imagination mean that pardos and pretos are the same thing. Ninguém ( talk) 13:09, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
This is again totally mistaken.
The IBGE doesn't count light Mulattos as Whites. The IBGE counts self declarations on "cor ou raça". If a light Mulatto considers him/herself White, he/she will be counted as White; but if he/she considers him/herself as Black, he/she will be counted as Black.
Whether light Mulattos count theirselves as White or not, the IBGE has no statement about it.
Sérgio Pena's paper discussed below seems to imply otherwise. According to it, people self-declared as pretos in Rio de Janeiro have, on the average, 50.9% Subsaharian genes; people self-declared as pardos have 23.6% Subsaharian genes. So apparently what is counted as pretos are Mulattos properly, and what is counted as pardos are what would be called in the United States "quadroons".
Evidently, this could be distorted by the fact that the genes for skin colour are a diminute part of human genome. But either there are actual sources to support Opinoso's weirdly phrased ("Congolese-looking"? I wonder whether any other editor could refer to people in this way without being reported into ANI and accused of something very dirty) claim, or it is mere original research, that cannot be taken into account when editing Wikipedia. Ninguém ( talk) 17:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Does he?
We cans see it here: [3]
Doesn't seem more cultural than racial.
It seems at least as racial as cultural: a society of mestiços originated from the mixing of Portuguese men and Indian women - which created a particular "cultural variety". Ninguém ( talk) 19:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
According to Sérgio Pena, the main expert on Brazilian genetics, Telles is wrong to label "pardos" as a group of predominant African ancestry. According to a study conducted by Pena and Suarez-Kurtz among Rio de Janeiro "pardos", the "pardos" were found to be predominantly European, at a rate of about 70% (autosomal %, the overall pic, the sum of a person's ancestry; not mtDNA or yDNA, which gives indication of single lines, far back), and the rest made of African and Native American contributions respectively. Addionally, in a sample of about 335 Brazilians from Rio de Janeiro, the "blacks" tested would be on average 41,8% European and 7,3% Native American in ancestry, thus roughly 50% non African in ancestry, autosomal ancestry (the sum of the ancestors, the overall profile)( http://www.laboratoriogene.com.br/geneImprensa/2009/pensamento.pdf). Would it be appropriate to characterize them as "Africans" then? They have multiple ancestries. And the "whites" from Rio de Janeiro would be roughly 90% European, and about roughly only 5% SSA (the African on par with the Iberian source, and practically within the noise range of the test), this way contradicting the often quoted studies posted so far. It is a proof of the high levels of diversity in Brazil. Again, it is important to stress that the diversity of the Brazilian heritage is a result of European colonialism. Unfortunately the government and scholars (except for the leading geneticists) still use the "colonial terminology" too much extensively. "Pardo", "white" and "black" are words invented by Europeans, for their own purposes and agendas. They do not describe a biological reality, they are social constructs. It does not mean that the oppressed peoples of Brazil should be not protected. Of course they should and they have been given help by the Brazilian government. Most Brazilians are the result of a brutal process led by Europe, just like the rest of America, and much of the rest of the world. To give too much significance to the European invented terminology is to be a hostage of the European colonialist mentality. Telles is of no real help, he is a biased foreign scholar. Darcy Ribeiro is another story, he is a great anthropologist, and his works are still major reference when it comes to Brazil. The quotes by Darcy Ribeiro (when not distorted) are always welcomed.
Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC).
Instead of Telles, I prefer Darcy Ribeiro and Joel Rufino dos Santos.
But, shocking as it is, Jews are (usually) Whites - and in the case they are not, the are Black, or Asian, or Amerindian, or some mix of those. There is no such thing as a "Jewish race".
Perhaps there are no such things "Asian", "Pacific Islander", "Aboriginal" or "Berber" genes?
Or perhaps, on the contrary, Gypsies, Jews, Turks, and Moors are White people, or people of mixed but predominantly White "race"?
But why would the Portuguese and Spaniards want to "hide" their Moorish, Jewish or Arabic ancestry? What would they have to gain by "hiding" that? And from whom would they "hide" it - especially when it is a fact that everybody already knows? Ninguém ( talk) 14:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of days ago user Opinoso complained of a supposed partiality in the text written by me in the section “History” (Sections: Native Brazilians and early Portuguese settlers; Territorial expansion; Independence and Empire; and Emperor Pedro II reign were done by me. I was going to start working on the sections about the Republican Era when this issue appeared). Yesterday night I decided to erase or transfer (to other articles) the controversial passages and thus prevent a greater problem among us. I also considerably diminished the size of the text, leaving it simpler, direct and straightforward. However, user Opinoso added informations that in my opinion are incorrect and are unnecessary. Below I transcribe them followed by my opinion:
1) “but against the uneven social structure that it imposed”
2) “from 30 to 40% of the population of the Province of Grão-Pará was killed)”
3) War of the Triple Alliance,[120] which left more than 300,000 dead)
4) “During the reign of Pedro II, the Brazilian economy was dependent on the export of coffee. The economic center was concentrated in the provinces of Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. The rest of the country had a poor and stagnant economy.”
Year | Cacao (tons exported) |
---|---|
1820s | 11,000 tons |
1880 | 73,500 tons |
Year | Rubber (tons exported) |
1827 | 81 tons |
1852 | 1,632 tons |
1900 | 24,301,452 tons |
Year | Coffe (tons exported) |
1821-60 | 3,377,000 tons |
1861-89 | 6,804,000 tons |
Year | Sugar (tons exported) |
1821-25 | 41,174 tons |
1881-85 | 238,074 tons |
5) “Work force on coffee plantations was based on African slavery.”
6) “The reign of Pedro II was the period that Brazil imported the largest numbers of slaves from Africa”
7) “and in 1864 as many as 1,715,000 people were living under slavery in Brazil.”
8) “Brazil was the last Western country to abolish slavery”
9) “because the Emperor did not want to risk antagonizing slave owners, who formed the elite of the country”
10) “By the end of the 19th century, most of the Brazilian population was composed of people of African descent.”
Conclusion: All passages should be erased or transferred to other more appropriate articles. And if, it is ok to everyone, I would like to continue writing the text about the history of the republican era (I already finished the colonial and imperial era as you can see). -- Lecen ( talk) 19:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree, but for a different reason: if there are 6 million whites, 6 million mixed (3/3) and 2 million blacks that means that the MAJORITY, 9 million, were whites (6+3) while descendants of Africans were at most 5 million (2+3), really less because among the "mixed" there are many who were half indian.-- 79.154.37.79 ( talk) 02:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Debresser ( talk) 19:33, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
After Lecen posted a reply on my talkpage, I'd like to add the following:
2) If this is too detailed for a relatively unimportant war the remove.
4) This is the correct course of action unless Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard would disqualify the source used by Opinoso.
6) Might be of minor importance, but 8) should definitely stay. Debresser ( talk) 20:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Some comments of the things you wrote there, lets see:
It's funny how the negative points of the Empire (large-scale use of slavery, poverty of the majority of the Brazilianm population, Brazilian economy remained agragarian and dependent on coffee exports while the "civilized" countries were going under a process of industrialization) are being removed from the article, while only the supposed positive points are still there.
1)Cabanos war was against the social structure imposed by the Monarchy, which was the same structure imposed in colonial Brazil or in the early Republic: a small minority of the country manipulating its richness, while the vast majority of Brazilians were living under poverty. Darcy Ribeiro described it as "a genocide with the goal of slaughtering the caboclo population". Caboclo were the native inhabitantd of the Amazon. It was against the "but against the uneven social structure that it imposed". Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
2)The deaths were caused directly by the war. The sentence by Lence "In reality, the deaths were caused by famine and illnesses that were resulted from the provincial anarchy and economical collapse" is his unsouced personal opinion. Even if the people died because of illnesses or famine, the deaths were brought by the war. Many Jews died of famine in concentration camps during World War II, but the causes of the death does not erase the fact that it was brought by the war, nothing else caused the deaths. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
3)It does not say that only Brazilians died in the war. During this war, the majority of the Paraguayan population (mostly civilians) was smashed by the Brazilian troops. Some sources claim that 90% of the male population of Paraguay died, another horrible aspect of the Empire as well as thousands of Argentines and Brazilians, which is ommited here (what a surprise). Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
4)Original resources conducted by user Lecen. The fact that the economy of Brazil had a great growth during the Empire was natural, since the population of the Empire increased by millions, and its capacity to produce more and more also grew. This is natural. However, the growth of the economy does not mean anything. The richness remained concentrated in the three richest provinces of the country, due to coffee exports, while the rest of the country had a decadent economy and great poverty. According to Darcy Ribeiro, in the 1890s coffee exports represented 61.5% of Brazilian economy, and all the production was centered in Minas Gerais, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. The other productions represented together only less than 40% of Brazilian economy. Then, Brazilian economy was based on coffee, since over half of it came from this product. Other products, such as sugar, cacau or cotton had a minor importance in Brazilian economy. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
5) Very important information. This part of the article only talks about the Emperor or the elite of the country. The Emperor was a single person, and the elite were a few thousands. Old conception of History. The modern History talks about the life of ordinary people. The history of the Africans in Brazil, and their importance, is trying to be ommited there. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
6)Yes, it was. The Brazilian History is divided in different periods, such as Capitanias do Mar (1516-1532), Capitanias hereditárias (1532-1549), Governo-Geral (1549-1580) and many others. The period of reign of Pedro II was the period, in all Brazilian History, that imported the largest numbers of slaves and the period that more people were used as slaves in Brazil. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
7) We're talking about Brazil, not the United States. If there were 4 million slaves in the USA this is their problem. The USA is not a model to be followed, and no other country is. We're talking about Brazil, and the figure about the slaves is very important. If there are figures about economy, figures about human being being used as slaves are even more importants. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
8)Brazil was the last Western country. User Lecen replaced "Western" by "American", probably trying to diminish the how latecomer Emperor Pedro II was to abolish slavery. Correct passage changed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
9)The information is sourced (Enciclopedia Britannica), and you cannot make original sources and erase sourced informations. The Emperor was afraid of abolishing slavery, because he did not want to lose the support of the elite of slave owners that fed him and his luxurious way of life, while the majority of Brazilians were starving to death. He could abolish slavery as soon as possible, but he waited until 1888 to abolish it, the last country in the Wester world. Pedro II even decided to take a trip to Europe and sent his daughter, Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil, to abolish slavery, because he was afraid to do so for fear of reprisals from the elite.
10)Another original resource conducted by Lecen. Where is your resourced to claim the Caboclos are the majority in Northeastern Brazil? The main mixture in Brazil was between Whites and Blacks, and most Pardos were Mulatos (African and European mixture). Caboclos are only found in significant numbers in Northern Brazil, not in Northeastern Brazil. Most people in Northeastern Brazil are either Black or Mulato (where may have some Amerindian mixture). Caboclos in Northeastern Brazil are mostly found in the Sertão, which is not as populate as the coastal region, where the African element in predominant. Why is Lecen trying to remove informations about the history of Black Brazilians? The history of the ordinary people, which includes Black Brazilians, are much more important than details about the personal life of Emperor Pedro II, which was a single person. Correct passage removed by an user who wants to hide facts for some personal reason.
Conclusion: user Lecen is doing original resource with books that are not avaible for us to read. Then, he is choosing to post only the positive points of the Monarchy from these books, while the negative points, which may be listed on those books as well, he choose not to post. Lecen is removing my sourced contributions, because they show that the Monarchy was not so wonderful as he is trying to sell and he is trying, in this talk page, to demoralize my contributions. However, he does not use sources to demoralize my contributions, but his personal opinions and original resourced about History (which is not allowed at all).
It's obvious that user Lecen has some kind of obssession with the Empire of Brazil and with Emperor Pedro II, since all his contributions in Wikipedia are dedicated to talk about the Monarchy of Brazil and his positive points. From this perspective, his contributions are biased, since he has a personal admiration for the monarchy. He should use his knowledge about the subjetc, which he claims to be huge, to post neutral informations about it. However, he choose to post biased informations about the Monarchy (only citing the positive points, and trying to remove the negative ones). On the other, when it comes about the Republic, Lecen choose to list only the negative points of it, and ommited the positive points. This is quite obvious when you read the part about the Emperor (good things only) and when you read the part about Republic (negative points only).
All my contributions are sourced, and I do not use sources from books people cannot read, making it possible to manipulate informations to feed a personal point of view. I won't let user Lecen remove my contributions because he "does not like them". If Lecen wants to remove informations, he is free to remove his own contributions, not from others. In fact, he erased the entire History part of the article, which was already here for months, and replaced them with all these biased changes. I still think that the original History part should come back, and these biased and controversial changes should be removed. Opinoso ( talk) 00:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
1) As usual, Opinoso uses as source Darcy Ribeiro. And only him. About the Cabanagem, the details about the war should be handled on its article, not in here. The rebellion was not even important to Brazilian history outcome.
2) To compare the rebellion with the Holocaust is huge mistake. And no, it is not unsourced.
3) Casualties of war should be handled on its respective article, not in the small section about Brazilian history. And no, 300,000 Paraguayans were not killed by Brazilians but instead by famine and diseases. See Doratio, Francisco. Maldita Guerra. São Paulo: Companhia das Letras, 2002 (best book about the War of the Triple Alliance in Portuguese). Anyway, you should talk about that on the article about the war.
4) It is not original resources. The work of famous Brazilian and British hitorians such as Roderick J. Barman, Pedro Calmon, Sérgio Buarque de Holanda, José Murilo de Carvalho and many others cannot be themed "original resource". Once again, you use Darcy Ribeiro as source. And it's always only him. I cannot believe that this author knows more about Brazilian history then all the historians I have mentioned before.
5) The life of Brazilian slaves should be told in the article Slavery in Brazil, not in here. Why only the slaves are important to Brazilian population? What about the Portuguese? Or the Indians? Or the European Immigrants (that are not even mentioned in the section and you don´t bother to ask for their inclusion!).
6) There is no period called "Capitanias do Mar". That kind of information should, once again, be on the article about slavery in Brazil. Or else, we are going to need to also put the number of how many immigrants came to Brazil. It just doesn´t fit in here!
7) But there are no figures about economy in the section! Why do you inssist so much to make the section about Brazilian history themed only on slavery?
8) No, it wasn´t. There was still salvery in African countries up to the end of the 20th century. And Africa is "Western", not "Eastern". Brazil was, indeed, the last american country to end slavery.
9) He couldn´t abolish slavey anytime he wanted. The country had laws, and lawas were created by a Parliament! My God, it is more than clear that you don´t known absolutly nothing about history of Brazil!
10) They were and still are. I am from the Northeast. I know the region. Large afro-descendant populations can be found in Bahia, Maranhão, Rio de Janeiro and Minas Gerais. All the remaining Northern and Northeastern states has a large caboclo population. You don´t even know the demographics of Brazil. Wonderful.
Lecen has some kind of obssession with the Empire of Brazil and with Emperor Pedro II
You were the only one who was against my texts. I was for a whole week changing the texts and no one else complained. All of these is happening now because of you and I trying to make peace in here but you keep attacking me for no reason.
And what obssession is that? Do I have obssession with the colonial era too? Because I wrote about it also. And you are the one who keeps trying to find "downside" opinions about this era of brazilian history at all cost. Why so much trouble?
since he has a personal admiration for the monarchy.
Do you know me to accuse me of such thing?
about the Monarchy (only citing the positive points, and trying to remove the negative ones). On the other, when it comes about the Republic, Lecen choose to list only the negative points of it, and ommited the positive points.
But I still did not begin working on the Republican era texts! I am desperately trying to end this issue on the monarchy era to begin working on the republic era!
All my contributions are sourced, and I do not use sources from books people cannot read, making it possible to manipulate informations to feed a personal point of view.
What? What about your Darcy Ribeiro sources?! You only use a pocketbook that was wrote by this author. Your author is good enough, but all those famous historians that I use aren´t? And I used several author so that I wouldn´t make the same mistake as yours, to use only one. - -- Lecen ( talk) 00:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
If you have any problem with a source being reliable or not or if an information is not important enough, there are certain places in Wikipedia dedicated to discuss these subjects. You are not allowed to make your own conclusions, and remove (sourced) informations according to your desire. If you have some kind of personal admiration for Monarchy or not, keep it to yourself. You are not allowed to use Wikipedia as a way to sell the informations you want like, and hide the informations you deslike.
You use reliable sources from books to feed your personal point of view, collecting all the positive informations about Emperor Pedro II that you could find, ommiting the negative points you found there, and trying to remove the sourced (and real) contributions from other users, because they are not compatible with brand new History of Brazil that you are trying to create here.
This article already had a very good and stable History session, which was removed by user Lecen, without any justification. It is amazing how you desperately try to delete informations about African slaves or the absolute poverty of the Brazilian people. Perhaps because a country of blacks and poor is far from a prototype designed by some people. But I have to tell you: Brazil was, and still is, a country of Blacks and poor, not a country of nobles and Emperors living a luxurious life. These were, and still are, the tiny minority of the population. Their place in Brazilian History is reduced to their percentage small percentage in the population.
And yes, most Brazilians were, and still are, of African descent. According to a genetic study, 86% of Brazilians have DNA indicating African ancestry. [4] Most White Brazilians have African descent, virtually all Pardos and Blacks too. Only the descendants of more recent immigrants may not have African ancestry. When you try to diminish the African influence in Brazil, it only shows your biased and "strange" point of view.
I will conclude my participation on this discussion with the following information, taken from the best-seller book "1808" by author Laurentino Gomes (so I cannot be accused of only using Darcy Ribeiro as a source):
"In 1881, when the so called Saiva Law established for the first time the direct election for some legislative positions, only 1.5% of the population had voting rights. It was just the great merchants and landowners who could vote. Among the enormous mass of excluded people there were women, Blacks, Mulattos, the poor, the illiterate people and the destitute people in general".
Reign of Emperor Pedro II a period of prosperity and economic growth for Brazil? Maybe it was for the 1.5% elite of the country. For the 98.5% mass of poor, Blacks, Mulatos, women or illiterate people (the vast majority of Brazilians) it was a period of poverty and destitution. Opinoso ( talk) 15:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
OPINOSO IS NOT FAITHFUL TO HIS OWN SOURCES. HE CHANGES THEIR TRUE MEANING TO PROVE HIS OWN POINT OF VIEW. - -- Lecen ( talk) 16:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
And why are you using the genetic Portuguese influence in Brazil to dominish the Africa one? They do not erase each other. Why are you trying to hide the fact that most Brazilians have African ancestry? Do you have any problem with it? Also, why do you attack Darcy Ribeiro with such a big anger, trying to demoralize his intelectual capacity? It's not up to you to decide if an author is big enough. Keep your personal opinions to youself, they're not welcome here.
Now, I have to leave. I will date now. There's a life outside and I live in a beautiful country with many things to see. Bye-bye. Opinoso ( talk) 16:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Taking in consideration the suggestions found in here, and also Opinoso's, I have made new changes on the text on the section about Pedro II reign. Here goes the changes:
Added:
This is how I believe the article should be. It´s simple, direct and straightfoward. It mentions slavery clearly and even has a "see also" banner to anyone who wants to know more about it. See below:
Extended content
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Emperor Pedro II reign![]() As the new emperor could not exert his constitutional prerogatives as Emperor ( Executive and Moderating Power) until he reached majority, a regency was created. [28] Disputes between political factions that led to rebellions resulted in an unstable, almost anarchical, regency. [29] The rebellious factions, however, continued to uphold the throne of Pedro II as a way of giving the appearance of legitimacy to their actions (that is, they were not in revolt against the monarchy). The Cabanagem [30] the Sabinada [30] and the Balaiada, [30] [31] all followed this course, even though some declared the secession of the provinces as independent republics (but only so long as Pedro II was a minor). [32] The "generation of politicians who had come to power in the 1830s, following upon the abdication of Pedro I, had learned from bitter experience the difficulties and dangers of government. By 1840 they had lost all faith in their ability to rule the country on their own. They accepted Pedro II as an authority figure whose presence was indispensable for the country's survival." [33] Thus, Pedro II was prematurely declared of age and “Brazil was to enjoy nearly half a century of internal peace and rapid material progress.” [34] From then "onward the Empire’s stability and prosperity when compared to the turmoil and poverty of the Spanish American republics gave ample proof” of the emperor’s successful government [35] Brazil also won three international wars during his long reign of 58 years ( Platine War, [36] Uruguayan War [37] and War of the Triple Alliance). [38] The emperor, who never owned slaves, [39] also led the abolitionist campaign [40] that eventually extinguished slavery after a slow but steady process that went from the end of international traffic in 1850 [41] up to the complete abolition in 1888. [42] However, he "took too long to trespass the political obstacles” [43] and Brazil became the last american country to abolish slavery. [44] Slavery had been for decades in decline: in 1823, 29% of the Brazilian population were slaves; it fell to 24% in 1854; then to 15,2% in 1872; [45] and finally to less than 5% in 1887. [46] Brazil was a “prosperous and [internationally] respected” country [47] when the monarchy was overthrown in November 15, 1889. [48] There was no desire in Brazil (at least among the majority of its population) to change the form of government [49] and Pedro II was on the height of his popularity among his subjects. [50] [51] Pedro II, however, “bore prime, perhaps sole, responsibility for his own overthrown.” [52] After the death of his two male sons, he believed that “the imperial regime was destined to end with him.” [53] The emperor did not care about its fate [54] [55] and did nothing (nor allowed anyone) to prevent the military coup [56] that was backed by former slave owners that resented the abolition of slavery. [57] The monarchist reaction after the fall of the empire “was not small and even less its repression”. [58] |
Lecen is making things look too positive, while Opinoso is making things look too negative. Now how to be?
Both parties should at this point decide not to make any edits that do not have consensus. Otherwise the article will be protected, or users blocked.
How to have consensus when you disagree?
Settle on the opinions of uninvolved editors. I have outlined them above in detail for each of the ten points.
Note: please do not make personal accusations (even if they were correct), and respect each other's sources (in general a book is considered reliable unless it would be shown to be unreliable according to the policy guidelines). Without these two things you will never reach consensus. Good luck! Debresser ( talk) 06:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
References
Parra
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).The economy information is totally biased. Its very obviouse that it only tries to show Brazil as a rich country. It uses GDP (PPP) information to state Brazil has one of the biggest economies in the world, but all informed people know that when comparing countries one should use the population variable and so it should be used GDP(PPP) per capita and not GDP (PPP). When using the correct information we can see that Brazil is even lower than many south american countries and are very far for being a rich country. The numbers can be easily found in the wiki List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita. The information should be added or even substitute the corrent one posted on the article to erase the biase and misleading information. 81.84.191.232 ( talk) 03:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
You are wrong to assume that a GDP (PPP) figure telling that Brazil is one of the biggest economies in the world (which we truly are) is meant to say that Brazilians are a rich people. There are very obvious economic issues in Brazil, which are largely related to the brutal European exploitation of our lands, which not only decimated the indigenous populations of Brazil, but also brought the slavery of millions of Africans who were employed in farms to produce basic products for Europeans to consume (like sugar f.e). We are working hard to solve it, but it is a very difficult problem to be dealt with successfully. The GDP per capita is a useful reference, and it should be used. It varies in Brazil from region to region, from social class to social class. The vast majority of South American billionaires are Brazilians. And so are the vast majority of South American multinational companies, like Gerdau and Odebrecht. Our economy has been predicted to become one of the five largest economies in the world in the decades ahead to come, and the GDP per capita will follow and grow. http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_countries_by_future_GDP_(PPP)_estimates http://www.chicagobooth.edu/alumni/clubs/pakistan/docs/next11dream-march%20'07-goldmansachs.pdf Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC).
I don't see the problem here. Both GDP and GDP per capita are given in the infobox. Also, please remember to be civil. Academic38 ( talk) 01:34, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to inform that i've already add the info about GDP (PPP) per capita and changed the value on the infobox. Im not very good with editing so fell free to better organize the information. To the above user: Thats exactly why i stated the GDP (PPP) is a misleading information, cause when you say "worlds second greatest economy" one is lead to belive it is in a matter of wealth. So when you say China is the second you should say "biggest" and not "greatest" and even the word biggest is misleading cause its has nothing to do with wealth. What i mean is that China is indeed a poor country, actually a very poor country, we can see that with GDP (PPP) per capita or GDP (nominal) per capita where China takes the 89 place. The high GDP (PPP) that puts China in the second place in the world is a consequence of the number of the population it has, the same situation as Brazil. GDP isn't any achivement as i already said, its simple the consequence of a big population. Thats why if you want to analyse the economy of a country using GDP you should use the per capita unit. 81.84.191.232 ( talk) 17:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk)
Well yes you were and are. You are being very biased in your opinons and very rude aswell. Cause in no way i was rude to anyone and you are being. I just came here to say to you, that the phrase you are always repeating was a response to someones comment so don't bring it like it was something that came from nowhere. One user made a comment blaming the europeans and the slavery and etc on their present day economic status. What i just said was that he should blame brazilians and their current system on those things cause Brazil is an independent country for so long and the slavery ended officially in 1888. This is not a rude comment and even if it was perceived by other as such i said in the next comment: "in no way i was rude to anyone and if i seemed to be i apologize 'cause that wasn't my intention at all. Im here just to discuss the GDP issue, not to fight." so please if you are gonna do a citation of me do a correct one. You are cleary in search of a fight and again this is not my "war". cya 81.84.191.232 ( talk) 18:56, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk)
Quote"Its a fact that when you are speaking in a country economic reality you should use GDP (PPP) per capita, because using simple the GDP (PPP) is very misleading about the economy real "size".
Quote"If someone is going to comment on the GDP of a country or you speak about the 2 indexs or if you want to speak about 1 you should use the GDP (PPP) per capita when you want to analyse the "size" of a country economy towards others".
I have not denied that our economy has major problems. Nor do I think that the article implies that having one of the largest economies in the world is an achievement. It is a fact that our economy is one of the largest economies in the world, however. If you care to read the studies I posted you will see that we have been predicted to be one of the five largest in the decades to come. We are already at the G-20. And we have been placed, along with Russia, India, and China, at the BRIC category, and it did not come out of nowhere. Qatar and Liechtenstein have one of the highest GDP (PPP) per capita rates in the world, and yet they are of no importance. Grenzer22 ( talk)Grenzer22 Grenzer22 ( talk)
This is a very long discussion for a very small change in the article. WP:NOTAFORUM is very relevant here. 81.84.191.232's error fix is incorporated, and I have tweaked the wording slightly in the text. Academic38 ( talk) 21:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)